Commons Sitting of 7 April 1859

MINUTES
. PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Confirmation and Probate Act (1858) Amendment); Convict Prisons Abroad.
2° Pauper Maintenance Act Continuance; Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Annuities, &c. Act Continuance; Railway Tickets Transfer.
3° Tramways (Ireland); Superannuation.

THE STATE OF EUROPE AND OUR FOREIGN RELATIONS.—NOTICE.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I beg to give notice that I shall to-morrow, on the Motion that the House do adjourn (and, if necessary, I shall move the adjournment), make some observations on the state of our Foreign Relations, and ask the Government to state, as far as may be consistent with their public duty, what is the present position in which this country stands, either as mediator or as negotiator, in regard to the discussions now going on either at Paris or elsewhere in regard to the affairs of Italy and Europe in general.
COUNTY COURT PRISONERS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HUGHESsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Attorney General what steps (if any) have been taken to prevent the practice of imprisoning Debtors who are confined under judgments of County Courts in a Remand Ward; and if any inconvenience would arise by making the rule applicable to Fraudulent Debtors, and not to mere cases of contempt for non-payment.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that since a question had been asked of his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on this subject inquiries had been made into the matter, and he was informed that the Law Officers of the Crown three or four years ago had expressed their opinion that the prisoners under this Act could he treated as persons guilty of misconduct, and be subjected to severe restrictions. On looking at the Act of Parliament he found that there was certainly a power, when Insolvent Debtors came before County Court Judges, and it was proved they were guilty of fraud or making away with their effects, to subject them to that rigorous imprisonment; but County Court Judges had also the power of imprisoning persons who answered the Court in what was deemed an unsatisfactory manner, and the

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  practice of County Court Judges in some cases had been to imprison those who did not give a satisfactory answer as to the non-payment of money. He had instituted an inquiry into the administration of justice by the County Court Judges, and should consult his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary with reference to making an alteration in the rules with regard to the treatment of County Court Prisoners. He was of opinion that none but Fraudulent Debtors should be imprisoned.

TENANT RIGHT.—QUESTION.
MR. GREERsaid, he rose to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the proposed Tenants' Compensation Bill for Ireland will be laid on the Table of the House before the Prorogation of Parliament; and also whether he has obtained any explanation with regard to the eviction of the Rev. Doctor O'Fay?
LORD NAASsaid, two Bills had been prepared—one a Leasing Powers Bill, and the other a Bill for amending the Law of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland, but it would be impossible to lay them on the Table during the present Session. At the earliest possible moment, however, after the meeting of the new Parliament they would be forthcoming. With regard to the second part of the question, such an explanation had been received.
MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he wished to know whether in substance the two Bills referred to by the noble Lord were the same as the two which had already been before the House, and whether the Government contemplate introducing a Tenants' Compensation Bill?
LORD NAASsaid, the Leasing Powers Bill was very much the same, and the second Bill included a Tenants' Compensation Clause, but of course he could not state then what the nature of the proposal would be.

NATIONAL SCHOOLMASTERS IN IRELAND.
MR. LEFROYsaid, he would beg to ask whether the attention of the Government has been directed to certain observations of Baron Greene, when passing sentence upon Sullivan (one of the Masters under the National Board) as convicted of being engaged in a conspiracy to dethrone Her Majesty, &c., where his Lordship stated, "I regret to say the evidence tends
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to show that others concerned with you in this guilty conspiracy have also been Schoolmasters intrusted with the education of the youth of this country;" and whether it was the intention of the Government to require the Commissioners of the National Board to institute a careful inquiry into the moral character and conduct of all the Schoolmasters now employed by the Board in the care and instruction of the youthful classes of the Irish people. He would also beg to ask the Irish Secretary what he proposed to do with a very important Bill which had stood for yesterday, and was postponed till next Thursday. He alluded to the Ecclesiastical Court and Registry Bill.
LORD NAASreplied, that it was not the intention of the Government to proceed with the Ecclesiastical Court and Registry Bill. The remarks of Baron Greene had been brought under the notice of the Irish Government, and it was the intention of the Lord Lieutenant to draw the attention of the Commissioners of the National Board to them.

SUPPLY.—REPORT.
MR. FITZROY brought up the Report upon Supply, upon which
SIR GEORGE LEWISobserved, that some discussion took place the day previous on the Vote of £2,000,000 for the payment of Exchequer bonds falling due in May next, and it was understood that some explanation would be given to-day by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the intentions of the Government with regard to this debt, and that the House would be informed whether it was intended simply to pay off these bonds and hereafter to ask for power to renew them or create a debt in some other manner of equivalent amount, or whether it was intended to defray the sum out of the Ways and Means of the year, without asking for power to create an equivalent amount of debt.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he had intended to make his usual financial statement on Monday next; but it was now impossible, in the peculiar circumstances of the House, to make that intended statement. The House would admit that it would be unfair to press him to make anything like a partial statement at the present time; but with respect to this particular Vote, he begged to state that, by the arrangements which he had

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made, and which he trusted on a subsequent occasion to have an opportunity of submitting to the House of Commons, it was his intention to pay off these bonds entirely—definitively to pay them, and not to renew them, and not to borrow money in any other form with that object.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to inquire whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a surplus of revenue to the amount of £2,000,000 to pay off the bonds?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the hon. Gentleman, if he should be present when he made his statement, would then have the opportunity of criticising it with his usual acumen; but at present he would content himself with saying that he should pay out of the Consolidated Fund this engagement of the country when it became due.
Resolutions agreed to.

SUPPLY.—NAVY ESTIMATES.
Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.
(1.) Question again proposed—
"That a sum, not exceeding £450,000, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, towards defraying the Charge of Wages to Artificers, Labourers, and others employed in Her Majesty's Naval Establishments at Home, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1860."
Question put, and agreed to.
The following Votes were also agreed to:—
(2.) £15,000, on account, Wages to Artifices and others, Naval Establishments Abroad.
(3.) £700,000, on account, Naval Stores.
(4.) £180,000, on account, New Works, &c.
(5.) £15,000, on account, Medicine and Medical Stores.
(6.) 22,000, on account, Naval Miscellaneous Services.
(7.) £350,000, on account, Half-pay, &c. to Officers of Navy and Royal Marines.
MR. LINDSAYsaid, that the First Lord of the Admiralty had intimated his intention of bringing forward some plan dealing with the retirement list, and he wished to know whether anything had been done in respect to that plan.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he could only answer the question in the terms in which he expressed himself when he introduced the Navy Estimates. He had
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a plan in contemplation with respect to naval promotion and retirement; but the magnitude and importance of the subject was such that he could not venture to submit the proposal to the House except after very great consideration. He hoped to be able to bring the subject, with other contemplated improvements in the Navy, before the House shortly after the meeting of the new Parliament.
SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, that Parliament had been extremely liberal already in respect to retirement; and the consequence was, that a great many good officers, some much younger than others remaining in the service, had been put out of commission. He, of course, could not tell what the First Load of the Admiralty contemplated, but he hoped that the House of Commons would not agree to give a single sixpence more for retiring allowances, because the steps taken already were ample.
Vote agreed to, as were also the following Votes on account.
(8.) £240,000, Military Pensions and Allowances.
(9.) £80,000, on account, Civil Pensions and Allowances.
(10.) £70,000, on account, Victualling and Conveyance of Troops, Army.
(11.) £300,000, on account, Packet Service.
SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, that he should like to see this charge taken away from these Estimates altogether. The Packet Service was much more connected with the Post Office than the Navy, and the money ought to be provided for under that head.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he was quite of opinion that the Vote ought not to belong to the Navy Estimates, with which it had really nothing to do. It was formerly connected with the Post Office Estimates, and he confessed he thought it ought to be so still.
MR. WILSONsaid, he thought that whatever department had the management of the packets ought to have the control of the Vote, and it would never do, where the packets were so large, and required so much skill, that the Post Office should have the control of the Vote. He quite agreed that this Vote ought not to be included in the Navy Estimates to swell the amount, but he hoped that the Admiralty would not divest itself of duties so well performed as were the duties of the packet service.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, that of course he must submit if there was a reason for attaching this Vote to the Navy Estimates, which must then continue to be swelled out by an expenditure with which the naval service had nothing to do.
MR. WILSONsaid, he would suggest that the best way to correct the evil would be to make this vote a Treasury Vote.
MR. MOOREsaid, he hoped to see the day when contract packets would no longer be maintained, but when ships belonging to the Royal Navy would be employed in the mail service under the command of merritorious officers, to whom such employment would be a reward, and a nucleus would thus be formed for keeping up an efficient force of seamen, who would be available in case of necessity. No less than £1,000,000 was now expended annually upon the mail contract service, which might be applied in such a manner as to secure a reserve of able and experienced seamen, who might at once be available in case of emergency. One of the conditions of the mail contracts was, that the ships employed in that service should be fitted in such a manner and should be of such strength as to be capable of carrying the heaviest guns used in Her Majesty's Navy, but he believed that out of the immense fleet of vessels employed as contract packets there was not one which was fitted for carrying guns according to the contract. He hoped this subject would receive the attention of the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty, and that an end would be put as soon as possible to the present system of contracts. Such contracts might be advantageous in establishing new communications, but he held that when trade was once opened to any part of the world the continuance of a system of subsidies was most injurious to the public interests. He believed that not one of the companies who supplied contract packets paid back to the Post Office in revenue the amount they received for the contracts. He had seen it stated that £30,000 was paid annually for carrying the South American mails, and that the revenue returned was £32,000; but this contract was merely a rider to another contract of £240,000 for carrying the West India mails, and he should like to know what were the postal returns upon that contract.
SIR CHARLES NAPIERremarked, that he did not concur in the views of the hon. Gentleman. If our men-of-war were devoted to the conveyance of letters alone to
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different parts of the world, the expense of the service would be much greater than under the contract system; while if they were also required to carry passengers, the consequence would be that the packets would become floating hotels, and naval officers would be turned into hotel-keepers. This had been the case under the old system, but he hoped it would never occur again.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he was anxious to call the attention of the First Lord of the Admiralty to the valuable invention of Captain Kynaston, R.N., for lowering boats from the quarter and stern of ships when going fast through the water, by which means many lives might be saved. The value of the invention had lately been demonstrated on board Her Majesty's ship Euryalus (the vessel in which Prince Alfred was serving), when, a seaman having fallen overboard off Alexandria, the boat was lowered in a strong wind and heavy sea, the ship going eight knots through the water, and the man was saved. He (Sir George Pechell) wished the right hon. Baronet to obtain, and lay on the table a report of the different trials made of Captain Kynaston's disengaging hooks, and, as rewards were given for valuable inventions for the destruction of life by means of explosive materials and large guns—as baronetages, and perhaps peerages, were the rewards of such inventions, it was certainly expedient that some due acknowledgment should be awarded to those who had projected the means of saving life. Captain Kynaston was suffering from wounds sustained in the Crimea, and his case was in every way deserving of consideration.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONobserved, that he was afraid the gallant Admiral had misunderstood what he (Sir John Pakington) had said on a former occasion. He had not said that the invention was now under the consideration of the Lords of the Admiralty, but that the experiments upon, and trials of the invention were not yet completed, and that the Admiralty were not yet in possession of any report on the subject. He sympathized most sincerely with Captain Kynaston under his sufferings, which were the results of valuable services rendered to his country, and he also felt grateful to that gallant officer for the endeavours he had made to bring to perfection a most useful invention for the preservation of life. He heartily hoped, for the sake of the gallant officer, that his invention might prove successful, but he

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was not at present in a position to produce the report for which the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton had asked.
Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
(12.) £150,000, on account, Clothing and Necessaries.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to call attention to the expenditure incurred for the clothing of the Guards as compared with the regiments of the line. The annual cost of the clothing of the Horse Guards was £8 15 s. 2d. per man, while the cost of cavalry of the line was £5 8s. per man. The annual cost of clothing for the Foot Guards was at the rate of £4 2s. 8d. per man, and for the line of £2 6s. 3d. per man. The cost of the Guards was, therefore, very nearly double that of regiments of the line, and although he wished to see the army properly clothed, he thought the Committee ought to know the reason of this difference.
GENERAL PEELsaid, that he was surprised that the hon. Gentleman should find matter for complaint, as there was no difference whatever in the clothing of the Guards for this as compared with previous years; but there had been a reduction of £5,000 under this head. He did not think much fault could be found with the cost of the clothing of the army when the line were supplied at only £2 6s. 6d. per man per annum. On the whole Vote there was a decrease this year of £289,460 as compared with 1858–9. A portion of this decrease was occasioned by the fact that they were enabled to dispense with the large store which was formerly necessary, and that the number of free kits now issued was much less than formerly. The only difference between the present and the old system was, that the clothing was supplied by the War Office instead of by the "clothing colonels." The same contractors were engaged, and the cloth was of very good quality.
GENERAL CODRINGTONremarked, that he had heard an hon. Gentleman, a member of the Contracts' Committee, say that the change to what was called the Weedon system had cost this country at least £100,000 a year, besides destroying the responsibility which used to prevail in regard to the clothing. But the system had again been changed; the War Office now made the contracts direct with the different firms, and the responsibility, in-
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stead of attaching as formerly to the "clothing colonels," devolved on those contractors, whose good name would, of course, suffer if any complaints were found necessary.
Vote agreed to; as were also the following Votes.
(13.) £12,000, on account, Rewards for Military Service.
(14.) £35,000, on account, Pay of General Officers.
(15.) £240,000, on account, Pay of Reduced or Retired Officers.
(16.) £90,000, on account, Pensions to Widows of Officers, &c.
(17.) £20,000, on account, Pensions and Allowances to Wounded Officers.
(18.) £13,000, on account, Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.
(19.) £550,000, on account, Out Pensioners Chelsea Hospital, &c.
(20.) £60,000, on account, Superannuation and Retired Allowances.
(21.) £30,000, Buildings, &c., Rifled Ordnance Factory, Woolwich.
GENERAL PEELobserved, that a supplemental arrangement had been made to be met by this Vote of £30,000 for the establishment at Woolwich of a manufactory of Sir William Armstrong's guns under his immediate superintendence.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he wished to ask what had been done with regard to the large mortar invented and made by Mr. Mallet. He understood that there had been several trials of this weapon, that in the main it had succeeded, and that, though parts of the mortar had at different times given way, these defects had been on each occasion remedied. At the last experiment one of the stays which held together the segments of which the mortar was compounded, being more tightened than the other stays, and having therefore to bear the whole strain of the explosion, gave way, but another stay was ready, and that accident was no proof whatever of failure. Hitherto, he understood, the mortar had not been tried with a full charge calculated to produce the greatest range of flight, and as yet no experiment had been made, by burying one of the shells to the depth to which it would probably penetrate when falling loaded at the end of its flight, and then exploding it while so buried, in order to see what would be the extent of the crater which the explosion would produce. He thought it exceedingly important that the weapon should be tried to the utmost, and

1517
he wished to know, therefore, whether these trials had been made, and, if not, what reason existed for not carrying the experiments further, so as to ascertain the applicability of the mortar for warlike purposes.
GENERAL PEELsaid, he had had no notice of the question, and therefore he could not enter into so full an explanation as he could wish when speaking merely from memory; but as far as he recollected, an expense of nearly £13,000 had been already incurred in the trial of this mortar, and the last report of the Ordnance Committee was to the effect that they did not consider it advisable to continue these experiments. He did not say that the experiments should not be renewed, but at the present moment the Ordnance Committee did not think it advisable to incur any further expenditure in this way. He would, however, put himself in a position to be able to give the noble Lord a more circumstantial reply.
CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, he wished to inquire whether the Government intended to persevere in their determination to send out twelve batteries of Artillery to India. The noble Lord the Secretary for India the other night had stated such to be their intention; but he had given no sufficient reasons for sending out so large a force at this period, when the rebellion was at an end, and there was no longer any enemy in the field. He thought that there would be a great risk incurred in the sending out twelve batteries of Artillery. He should wish to know whether the Government were or would be prepared, on some future occasion, to enter into a more detailed explanation upon this subject.
GENERAL PEELsaid, a requisition had been made by the Indian Government for twelve batteries of Artillery; but the noble Lord the Secretary for India and the Council for India, having duly considered the matter and the present state of our Eastern Empire, decided upon sending out only half the amount of the force required. It was deemed absolutely necessary to have a larger force of European Artillery than of Native. The proportions of the European and the local force were regulated by the report of the Indian Commission.
CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, as he understood the requisition, it was for twelve batteries, without the guns — that they simply wanted the men in India. He believed that there were plenty of guns out in India as well as stores of all kinds.
GENERAL PEELwas understood to say that some large batteries had already gone out.
COLONEL SYKESobserved, that when the requisition for those batteries had been made, the rebellion was raging in India, and that there was no prospect of its being immediately quelled. Now, however, that India lay prostrate at our feet, and that her financial embarrassments were so great, it was, he thought, highly inexpedient to encumber her with an additional force of 3,000 men, who would be obliged to go into cantonments, and would be insufficiently provided with barrack accommodation.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he believed that the cost of British Artillery in India was not greater than that of European artillery in India. He thought that the Government ought to take care that no unnecessary expenditure should be incurred under the present embarrassed state of the Indian treasury.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he wished to know what was the date of the requisition which had been referred to. For his own part, he was of opinion that even one-half of the twelve batteries in question ought not to be sent out to India. Nobody who was acquainted with the subject could for one moment doubt the efficiency of the artillery employed by the East India Company, to the admirable quality of which both the late Lord Hardinge and Sir Charles Napier had borne testimony. He could not help thinking under those circumstances that there were strong objections to the discontinuance of the local artillery in India. [General PEEL: Nobody proposes to do that.] He was under the impression that it was proposed to discontinue the European Artillery now in India, and if he were right in that view he should beg the gallant General to bear in mind that any artillery force which might be sent out from England to supply its place must, for a time, be comparatively inefficient, owing to the non-acquaintance of the officers and men with the language and habits of the Natives. He might also observe that during the recent rebellion 400 pieces of cannon and about 1,000,000 stand of arms had been taken from the enemy, that 800 forts had been destroyed—so that the fact, in reality, was that the artillery in India was in excess of what was required. That being so, it would, bethought, be a most unwise proceeding at a moment when the aspect of Europe was so ominous to send out even the reduced number of thirty-

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six guns, as he understood was now proposed. For his own part, he strongly objected to the diminution of the artillery force in this country by even a single gun, and he should suggest the expediency of postponing compliance with the requisition of the Indian Government on the subject until the report of the Commissioners on Army Organization had been received and considered. If Her Majesty's Ministers were to act otherwise, and carry out their present intention, he must say that they would, in his opinion, commit a great blunder. Having said thus much on that point, he might he permitted to draw the attention of the Government to the circumstance that the policy of establishing, at a great expense, an iron foundry at Woolwich for the manufacture of large cannon was open to much doubt. There was a considerable number of similar establishments in the country which furnished excellent cannon of that description at a fair price, and, besides, there was a large number of those guns in store. The foundry to which he alluded was, therefore unnecessary, and he should suggest that instead of being maintained for its present purpose, at an expense of £150,000, it should be handed over to the use of Sir William Armstrong.
LORD STANLEYsaid, he thought some misapprehension prevailed as to the reason why it was in contemplation to send out the Artillery in question to India. As far as he could gather from the observations of the hon. and gallant General, he seemed to suppose that it was intended to send it out as a force in excess of that which had existed in that country before the mutiny. Such, however, was not the case. The fact was, that a large portion of the Native Artillery of Bengal had mutinied during the recent outbreak. A deficiency had therefore been created in that province in that particular arm of the service, and in August last Viscount Canning had written home a statement of his opinion as to what ought to be the amount of the Artillery force which should be maintained in India. Now, if there was one point in reference to which there was a greater concurrence of opinion among military authorities both at home and in India than another, that point was that the great bulk of the Artillery in that country should be European, and not Native. It was necessary in the judgment of the Governor General to fill up the void caused by the desertion of the Native Artillery of Bengal. There was no question that that would be filled up by Europeans,
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but there was a question whether it should be supplied by a local European Artillery or by a reinforcement of the Artillery of the line. So far from prejudging the Report of the Commission, the course which was pursued had been expressly intended to avoid prejudging the matter. There was already a certain amount of the Royal Artillery serving in India, and to increase the force to some extent was not at all introducing a new principle, and the only question was whether the addition should be local or Royal Artillery, or how much of each. Pending the Report of the Commission, it was determined in a manner to compromise the matter, and to supply the immediate, and at that time pressing demand of the Indian Government by sending out a nearly equal proportion of Artillery of the line. Since that time, however, the state of India had so improved beyond what could have been expected in August last, and the military condition of India was very satisfactory, while, he regretted to say, the financial condition was just the contrary. For both these reasons the Government had determined, although their decision had not yet been announced to the Indian Government, to reduce the number of Artillery to be sent out by one-half. With respect to the guns, he might observe that they were not to be sent out. The guns were in India, and would be handed over to the troops on arrival in that country.
SIR DE LACY EVANSasked the date of the requisition.
LORD STANLEYsaid, it was a Minute of the Governor General, dated in August last.
SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid, he heard with regret from the noble Lord that he had not complied with the real requisition of the authorities in India which, as he understood, was only to recruit for the local European Artillery from this country; and that the Government were going to send out six batteries of the Royal Artillery to India. It was quite true that a large proportion of the Native force had mutinied; but we had still all the officers remaining true. The intention of the Government, if carried out, would entail a heavy charge upon India. Now, all military authorities concurred in saying that the Indian Artillery was the best in the world. We had this skilled Artillery in India at present, and also officers there who were men of twenty and twenty-five years' standing. The young officers who were going out to

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India were men, perhaps, of twenty-three to twenty-five years of age, whose presence there would have the effect of stopping all promotion. He trusted that before the close of the Session they would have the Report of General Hancock. All that was wanted in India were the troopers and gunners to complete the complement of the Indian Artillery.
LORD STANLEYobserved, that even if the twelve batteries originally intended had been sent out, the force of Artillery in India would still be below the usual amount before the rebellion.
COLONEL SYKESsaid, he would remind the noble Lord that the void caused in the Bengal army by the destruction of the Native Artillery had been already supplied. He hoped for the sake of the finances of India that the Government would not persevere in their intention.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he wished that they had received some further explanation before the Vote was agreed to.
GENERAL PEELhoped that he should be able to lay upon the table of the House before its prorogation the report of the Commission upon the Organization of the Army in India. He thought it would not be right to prejudge the question by entering into details before they had seen the report. With respect to the hon. and gallant General's proposition to hand over Woolwich gun factory to Sir William Armstrong, he (General Peel) could not give his assent. So far from there being an excess of guns on hand he could assure the Committee that requisitions for 68-pounders from many of our most important garrisons still remained unfulfilled.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he thought the Government was practically prejudging the question by sending out Artillery before the report of the Commission had been presented. The requisition of the Governor General was made in August, when India was in the midst of a fearful struggle, and the Government were now going to comply with it to the extent of one-half when the war had completely ceased. He believed that even at present there were 133 pieces of the Royal Artillery in India besides the European guns. There were some persons who desired to get rid of the local force altogether, and the public could not help thinking the Government must have some other reasons for the course they were taking than those which they had stated.
GENERAL PEELobserved, that the hon.
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and gallant Member had no right to impute improper motives to the Government. Let the gallant General wait until he saw the report of the Commissioners before he accused the Government of acting in defiance of it.
MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he wished to know what was done with the officers of the late Bengal Native Artillery? Were those who were unemployed on full pay?
LORD STANLEYreplied, that he was not aware that there was at present any considerable number of unemployed officers. He apprehended that most of the officers referred to had found employment, some in the new levies and some in civil employ.
COLONEL FRENCHasked, whether it was intended to break up the fine artillery service of the late East India Company.
GENERAL PEELreplied in the negative.
SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid he must again appeal to the Government to suspend their order for the embarcation of the six batteries until the whole question had been considered and decided.
Vote agreed to.
House resumed.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

SUPERANNUATION BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he rose not for the purpose of opposing the third reading of this measure, but to ask the Government for an estimate of the expense which its provisions would entail on the country.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEstated, in reply, that the increase of expenditure consequent upon the passing of the Bill might possibly be £70,000 a year at the utmost, taking into account the additions to be made by taking in a new class of officers, and the possible effect of an alteration in the scale. £40,000 was estimated as the possible addition by taking in the officers of the Post Office, £10,000 by admitting other officers, and £20,000 by an alteration in the scale. The hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson) who had paid much attention to the subject, originally estimated the total increase in the expenditure at £100,000, but his (Sir S. North-cote's) belief was, that £50,000 would be nearer the truth.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he considered this was one of the most improper and uncalled-for Bills the House

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  had ever passed. It was founded on a promise of a revision of salaries, but that revision had never been and probably never would be, carried out; and yet the Bill would inflict a burden of £70,000 upon the country. He should feel pleasure in having recorded what would probably be his last vote in this Parliament against that Bill.
  MR. DRUMMONDsaid, the Bill was a most improper one, both in principle and detail. If it were just in principle, which he denied, every banker and merchant ought to provide superannuation allowances for his clerks and every private person for his servants.
  MR. WEGUELINsaid, that as one of the Commissioners who had originally investigated this subject, he was desirous of expressing his belief that the Bill contained the only practical conclusion that could be come to upon it. The revision of salaries referred to could only be prospective, as it was almost impossible to reduce the salaries of existing officers. The Bill might throw an additional charge upon the revenue for the present, but ultimately it would result in a saving to the country.
  Bill read 3° and passed.

NEWSPAPERS, &c., BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  House in Committee.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he wished to ask the Government for a statement of their intentions with respect to this Bill.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTsaid, that when this Bill came on for a second reading his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General intimated that there were objections to some of its provisions. There were two classes of legislative enactments with which the Bill proposed to deal. One referred to security, the other to registration. The Solicitor General said as to security there were enactments that had become obsolete from circumstances, or which were never put in force; and his hon. and learned Friend was willing to accede to such provisions of the hon. Member's (Mr. Ayrton's) Bill as dealt with those Statutes or portions of Statutes. But with regard to the provisions under the head of registration his hon. and learned Friend reserved his opinion. Since the second reading of the Bill he (Mr. S. Estcourt) had received a memorial from the Society for Promoting the Repeal of
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  Taxes on Knowledge, very distinctly pointing out the several entries contained under the head of registration, and pointing out how very little security they afforded. He believed they were all agreed that whatever real security existed against the publication of blasphemous, indecent, slanderous, or libellous matter ought to be retained; but that whatever was not necessary to afford such security, and whatever might be classed under the head of "obsolete" ought not to remain on the Statute-book. This was the feeling of Her Majesty's Government. Many of the provisions which the hon. Gentleman intended by his Bill to repeal, were enactments or portions of enactments passed by Parliament to meet special circumstances which no longer existed. Of this kind were the provisions directed against Jacobins. There was, therefore, no reason for maintaining those provisions on the Statute-book. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ayrton) desired to know whether there were any parts of several Acts enumerated in his Bill which the Government desired to retain. He (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt) had talked the matter over with his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General, and the result was that he could not consent at that moment to the Bill of the hon. Gentleman, for the amount of repeal which it provided for was so sweeping, and it embraced so large a scope of legislation — legislation extending over fifty years—that although on the whole he might not be prepared to point out to the hon. Gentleman what it might be necessary to retain, neither was he ready to say what part of the existing law might be safely abrogated. Therefore, considering the position in which the House at present stood—bearing in mind that even if the Government allowed the Bill to pass through the Commons it could scarcely pass through the Lords previously to a dissolution, he would make an offer to the hon. Gentleman. He would undertake that this matter should be fairly considered during the recess—considered in a spirit not different from that in which the hon. Gentleman himself had approached it—and that if he (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt) had the honour of a seat in the new Parliament he would himself lay a Bill upon the table, preserving whatever the Government thought necessary to be retained, and repealing whatever they thought might safely be dispensed with; or that if he did not bring forward a Bill on behalf of the Government he would communicate

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  with the hon. Member should he (Mr. Ayrton) be a Member of the new House, and put him in possession of the views of the Government on the subject.
  MR. EDWIN JAMESsaid, he thought that the country was much indebted to the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) for having devoted his attention to the matter; and, as Her Majesty's Government had met him in so fair a spirit, he (Mr. James) would take the liberty of suggesting to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department that, at the most, all that was necessary to be preserved of the existing enactments having reference to newspapers was 6 & 7 Will. IV., c. 76. That statute prescribed registration, and that the printer's name should appear on the publication. Now, as the object of legislation on this subject at the present day ought not to be to clog newspapers with restrictions, he thought that the provision requiring the printer's name to be attached to the publication would be sufficient. Since the establishment of the cheap press attacks on private character had not been known, the conductors of the newspaper press discharging their duties, as journalists of public matters, without invading the sanctities of private life. He would suggest to the Secretary of State for the Home Department that requiring the printer's name to appear on every publication would be all that was really necessary; and that, by abolishing everything else, we should get rid of the machinery which clogged the liberty of the press without producing any practical utility.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONremarked that there was nothing novel in the proposition before the House; for, in 1855, the right hon. Member for the University of Oxford proposed a Bill to abolish both the security and the registration required of newspapers. It was considered maturely by the Government in 1855, and they were prepared to legislate pretty much in the manner now proposed by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State would, therefore, find in his department, ready to his hand, all the information that might be required for a consideration of the question. He (Mr. Milner Gibson) submitted that the principle which should be acted upon was this that no rule should be applied to newspapers that was not applied to all other publications. If it were considered necessary that the printer's name should appear on newspapers, let it also
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  appear on all printed papers whatever. They ought not to have a distinct legislation for newspapers, for here had been the stumbling-block, and no court of law had yet been able to decide clearly what is a newspaper.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that after the suggestion made by the Secretary for the Home Department he should not ask the House to proceed further with the Bill this Session.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALobserved that all parties were agreed that the statutes which required security to be given ought to be repealed, and that those which required the printer's name to be attached should be retained. The only point for consideration was, whether the law which required newspapers to be registered at Somerset House ought to be repealed or not. He admitted that there were no means of enforcing that law; but, on the other hand, it was possible to provide some better means of registration. He thought the better course for him to take would be to move that the light hon. Gentleman should leave the Chair, which would terminate the Bill for the present Session.
  House resumed. [No Report].

ROYAL WESTERN YACHT CLUB OF IRELAND.

  PAPERS MOVED FOR.
  MR. COGANsaid he wished to call the attention of the House to a letter from the Lords of the Admiralty to the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland, dated the 26th day of June, 1858, withdrawing the privilege of wearing the white ensign from that club, although granted them by Royal Warrant, dated the 6th day of February, 1832, and confirmed by letters of the Admiralty of the 30th day of July, 1849, and the 29th day of April, 1853, and ratified by Vote of the House of Commons, of the 29th day of July, 1853, and to move for—
  "Copies of all Correspondence relating to the Warrant granted to the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland, especially those in the years 1832, 1842, 1849, 1853, and 1858, and particularly the Admiralty Warrant to the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland, of the 6th day of February, 1832, and Letters of the 31st day of July, 1849, the 29th day of April, and the 2nd day of May, 1853; also Letter addressed by the late Maurice O'Connell, Esq., M.P., to the Lords of the Admiralty, and Sir James Graham's reply, dated the 23rd day of May, 1853. Of any Letters or Minutes of any applications made by the Royal St. George's, the Holyhead, or any other Yacht Club, for permission to wear the White Ensign, with the Answers thereto. Of any Memorials or

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  Letters from the Royal Yacht Squadron to the Lords of the Admiralty relative to their claim for the exclusive use of the White Ensign, with the Answers thereto, since the granting of the Warrant to that Club. Of Memorial presented by the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland through His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant to the Lords of the Admiralty, with the Reply thereto. And of General Warrants granted to all Royal Yacht Clubs, with the dates on which separate Warrants were issued to the Yacht Owners of the several Clubs, authorizing them to carry the respective Club Ensigns."
  This privilege involved the very existence of the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland. That club consisted of nearly 400 members, and possessed about 130 yachts. In 1832 it was authorized by Royal Warrant to wear the white ensign, but by a letter from the Admiralty, dated the 26th of June, 1858, that privilege was withdrawn, on the ground that the white ensign was restricted to the Royal Yacht Squadron. He must deny, however, on the authority of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carlisle, that the Royal Yacht Squadron ever had the exclusive right of using the white ensign, and what he wanted to know was, why the Admiralty had revoked the Warrant of 1832. He thought that after all that had taken place it was a harsh proceeding to withdraw the white ensign from the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland. It might appear ridiculous to make so much fuss about the matter, but it should be borne in mind that this was a point of honour with yatchsmen. He trusted that the Admiralty would, on reconsideration, revoke the decision at which they had arrived. He concluded by making the Motion of which he had given notice.
  LORD BURGHLEYsaid, he also trusted that the decision would be reconsidered. The club consisted of 200 gentlemen, and they felt it was a harsh proceeding on the part of the Admiralty to withdraw the privilege of using the white flag from their squadron.
  MR. LYGONsaid, that the Admiralty had no objection to the production of the correspondence moved for, and though he could hardly say that they were prepared to reverse the decision arrived at, they would be anxious to meet the views of the hon. Gentleman as far as they could consistently with their duty.
  SIR JAMES GRAHAMsaid, that when at the Admiralty in 1832 he advised that the white flag should be extended to the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland, and he was sorry that the decision then come to had been revoked without any allegation of improper conduct on the part of
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  the club being borne out. If the Admiralty reconsidered the matter he hoped that the flag would be given back as the two countries should be treated alike. There should be equality of Royal favour as well as in other matters.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, that no reason had been assigned for revoking the permission granted to the Royal Western Yacht Club of Ireland, and he trusted that the white ensign would be restored to them.
  LORD LOVAINEexplained that all English clubs were not entitled to the use of the white flag.
  Motion agreed to. Copies ordered.

FISCAL AFFAIRS (IRELAND.)
SIR DENHAM NORREYS SIR DENHAM NORREYS, who had given notice of a Motion for a "Select Committee to consider to what extent the principle of 'representation of the ratepayers' could be safely adopted in the management of the fiscal affairs of counties in Ireland; and also whether 'poor law unions' might not beneficially be substituted for 'baronies' as fiscal districts," said that the county accounts of Ireland extended to the expenditure of £1,045,000 a year, and the whole was expended under the superintendence of a body in each county of about twenty-three gentlemen, who were selected by the sheriff. Nothing could be more absurd than the present system of expending the public money in Ireland; and, should he be returned to the new Parliament, this would be one of his first Motions. He would withdraw the Motion of which he had given notice.
House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock.