Commons Sitting of 19 March 1858

MINUTES,
PUBLIC BILLS.—3° Marine Mutiny; Militia Act Continuance; Commons Enclosure.
ASSIMILATION OF THE ENGLISH AND COLONIAL LAW.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HORSFALLsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary for the Colonies whether, seeing the great inconvenience which arises from the existence of Dutch, Spanish, and French Laws in various of our Colonial Possessions, the time has not arrived when the attempt may be made to assimilate the Laws of our Colonies to those of the Mother Country?
  LORD STANLEYsaid, that no doubt there did exist a great diversity between the laws which prevailed in different portions of the British empire; no doubt also that diversity gave rise to considerable practical inconvenience in this country, but possibly also in the Colonies; at the same time, however, he could not hold out to his hon. Friend any hope that the Imperial Government would attempt to remodel the laws in the Colonies, and establish a uniform system of law throughout the British, empire. Any such attempt, if made by the Imperial authority, would create in the Colonies concerned a feeling of great dissatisfaction and great discontent. In most cases, if not in each case, where the Colony formerly belonged to a Foreign Power, and came into the possession of the British Crown, a pledge was given to the inhabitants of the colony that they should continue to enjoy their own institutions and their own laws. Although he did not say that those institutions and laws belonging to a former time were inviolable

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  and for ever binding on this country, yet there were strong arguments against any interference with them by the Imperial authority. There had been some special cases in which it had been thought necessary to interpose by the Imperial authority; but, as a general rule, the matter had been left to the various local Legislatures. The Government of this country had always felt confident that in the lapse of time, and with the increased trade and increased intercourse with the rest of the British empire, English habits and English ideas would be introduced into our Colonies, as they already had been to a considerable extent in Canada and the Cape of Good Hope, and one result of that would be, that ultimately, although not at present, there would be established throughout the British empire a uniform legal system, free from practical difficulties. But in the meantime we were bound to consult the feelings and convenience of the inhabitants of the Colonies as well as our own; for, like ourselves, they were attached to the laws and institutions under which they had been brought up; and whatever might be the advantages—and he did not deny that they would be considerable—of a uniform system of law prevailing throughout the British empire, those advantages would be dearly bought if purchased at the expense of the loyalty and good will of any of the Colonies subject to British rule.

FAIRS AND MARKETS (IRELAND)—GRAND JURY (IRELAND).

  QUESTION.
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in the event of the Fairs and Markets (Ireland) Bill and the Grand Jury (Ireland) Bill, now on the table of the House, being-withdrawn, he will be prepared to introduce a Bill or Bills upon the same subjects after the Easter recess?
  LORD NAASsaid, it was his intention to postpone the Bills alluded to by the hon. Gentleman until after Easter, and he would then state what course the Government intended to take with regard to them.

CAPTURE OF DELHI—ISSUE OF MEDALS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary for War whether it is in contemplation to issue Medals to commemorate the capture of Delhi to all those engaged in that memorable siege?
  GENERAL PEELsaid, it was in contemplation to give a decoration to those engaged in the capture of Delhi, but he would be able to give a more satisfactory answer to the question on Monday.
  On the Motion that the House at its rising adjourn until Monday,

EDUCATION REGULATIONS (ARMY) INDIA.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. FAGANsaid, he rose to call the attention of the Secretary to the Board of Control to the army regulations made by the Governor General in India in Council in 1855, which requires that the children of soldiers over four years of age should be sent to the regimental schools in order to entitle such soldiers to draw for each child subsistence money of 5s. per month; and to ask whether, during the last year, any modification or alteration of that regulation has been made so as to allow the Roman Catholic soldiers now serving in India, who conscientiously object to send their children to these regimental schools, to have them educated in schools of their own faith without the forfeiture of their subsistence money; and to ask, further, if no such modification has been made, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's present Government to afford that just relief to the consciences of the Roman Catholic soldiers now serving their country in India. He had given notice of similar questions last summer; but before they were asked the news of the mutiny arrived, and at the request of the right hon. Gentleman, who was then President of the Board of Control, he did not press them. He did not know what had occurred since, and could well understand that the mind of the right hon. Gentleman might have been so pre-occupied that he had forgotten the subject. Now, however, they were assured by the noble Earl at present at the head of the Board of Control that the mutiny was nearly suppressed, and he therefore thought that the time had now come when no injury to the public service could be done by bringing the subject forward. To understand his questions the House must be informed that every soldier serving in India was entitled to draw subsistence money at the rate of 5s. per month for each of his children; and that there were at almost every military station Roman Catholic schools of great efficiency, indeed, nearly equal to those which were to he found in

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  this country. In 1854 the celebrated Education despatch was sent from this country by the Court of Directors, establishing a system of education in India on much the same plan as was established in Ireland. In the following year Lord Dalhousie, anxious that the children of soldiers serving in India should have the advantage of the great system of education established under that despatch, drew up certain army regulations, among which was one providing
  "That all children being above four years of age for whom the Government subsistence allowance is drawn, are required to attend the school regularly, unless prevented by sickness, failing which the allowance is forfeited."
  These regulations were published in the Madras Presidency, but he did not know whether they had been applied also to those of Bengal and Bombay. What had been the result in Madras? Roman Catholic soldiers, who could not conscientiously send their children to the Government schools during the hours of religious instruction, had been obliged to give up their subsistence money, amounting in some cases to 25 s. or 30 s. a month. It was true that there was a regulation that the children of Roman Catholic soldiers would be allowed to absent themselves at the time when religious instruction was afforded, provided their parents signified in writing to the schoolmaster or mistress their wish to that effect. But practically that regulation was a nullity. It might do very well in Ireland, where public opinion could be brought to bear upon it, and where there were Commissioners of Education to protect the religious rights of Roman Catholic children; but everybody acquainted with regimental discipline knew that a private soldier could not refuse to send his children to the regimental school, especially when it happened that his commanding officer was a person of strong religious feelings on the Protestant side. He understood that in point of fact the regimental schools in India were essentially, apart from the question of religious teaching, Protestant institutions, with Protestant books, and Protestant masters and mistresses, so that the Roman Catholic soldiers could not without great sacrifices, including the deprivation of the sacraments of their Church, send their children to them. The result was that they were deprived of that subsistence money which he maintained was their right. It was proper the House should know that the
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  number of Roman Catholic soldiers in India amounted to nearly one-half of the entire force. For the future, the European troops would be considerably increased, and he asked whether it was right that such a regulation as that he had quoted, though intended for the best purposes, should be continued? He hoped that the Secretary to the Board of Control would give him a satisfactory answer; if not, it would be his duty at some future period of the Session to direct attention again to a question of such vital importance to a largo portion of the soldiers serving in India. The hon. Gentleman concluded by putting his question.
  MR. BAILLIE: The inquiry of the hon. Member for Cork embraces two questions. First, he asks whether, during the last year, any modification or alteration of the regulation to which he has referred has been made, so as to allow Roman Catholic soldiers, now serving in India, who conscientiously object to send their children to the regimental schools, to have schools of their own? No alteration has been made in those regulations; but the hon. Member does not seem to be aware that those regulations of the Government of India are the same, word for word, as the regulations for the British army in this country. That regulation to which he referred seems to me to meet completely the case of which he complains. Before reading it, however, I may state to the House that the hon. Member has stated quite correctly that those soldiers who receive subsistence money of 5s. a month for their children have it on condition of sending their children to school; and I suppose he does not object to that. The regulation of the Governor General on the subject, which is, as I have said, copied word for word from the regulations of the British army for this country, is as follows:—
  "The children of Roman Catholic soldiers, or of soldiers dissenting from the Church of England, will be allowed to absent themselves at the time at which religious education is given, provided their parents signify their wish in writing to the schoolmaster or schoolmistress; but they must attend at the opening of the school."
  The religious education commences at the beginning of the day, and the Roman Catholic children are thus not required to attend school until that portion of the instruction is concluded, and they then come in solely for secular instruction. That is the regulation at present, and I do not

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  know that there is any intention of altering it.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he had had conversations with Roman Catholic soldiers, who represented the existing regulations as imposing upon them the most intolerable grievance. The comfort and the promotion of the soldier depended upon his obtaining the goodwill of his superior. It was, therefore, "a sham" to tell a soldier in a regiment, where there was a proselytizing colonel or major, that he might withdraw his children from the religious education which they favoured. There was no human being so dependent on the caprice of another as a private soldier in the army. The present regulations did not protect the Roman Catholic soldiers, and they ought to be modified.

COMMISSIONS IN THE ARMY.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. BAGWELLsaid, he rose "to bring before the House the subject of certain parties professing to obtain Commissions in the Army without purchase or examination, by raising men for Her Majesty's Service." Since he brought this subject before the House on a former evening he had received several communications from persons complaining that commissions in the army were given without examination. There was no branch of the public service of which the people were more justly jealous than the administration and patronage of the army. In The Times of that morning—a journal which both led and followed public opinion—there was an article on General Havelock, of whom the writer said "He had not attained to high rank or high command, for he had no family influence nor political interest at his back;" and "It seemed pretty certain that he had reached the limits of any advancement possible under the circumstances of this peculiar case." That showed the state of public opinion on the question of the advancement in the array. He held in his hand a letter from Mr. Galbraith, a Fellow of Trinity College, Dublin, and one of the most distinguished scholars in Ireland, complaining of the want of a proper competitive examination for the scientific branches and higher grades of the service; and upon the same point he would just allude to a letter in The Times of that morning. The particular case which had directed his attention to the subject of commissions in the army might he briefly stated. Some time ago a young gentle-
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  man, a friend of his, saw the following advertisement in The Field, a newspaper likely to attract young men fresh from Eton:—
  "The Army.—Commissions without purchase. —Young gentlemen are now permitted to raise 100 men for the army, and thereby obtain without purchase or examination an ensigncy in the Line. Those who have obtained their orders or wishing to do so will study their interests by applying by letter, in the first instance, to Captain Hunt, 3, Montague Place, Islington, London. Militia aspirants will be attended to."
  Upon application by letter being made to Captain Hunt, the following communication was received:—
  " 3, Montague Place, Islington, London,
  March 3.
  "Dear Sir, — If you are under twenty-three years of age, I shall, I have little doubt, be enabled to get you a cornetcy in the cavalry without examination. In the first instance you must lodge at the army agents a stipulated sum, to be paid over to me upon your name appearing in the Gazette. No money required before.
  "Procure a certificate of your birth, a certificate of your education and moral conduct from your schoolmaster, a certificate as to what religion you are from your clergyman, two or three of the most influential testimonials you can procure regarding your respectability, &c. When you procure these call upon me by Friday evening. It must be by Friday evening at furthest, as I leave for the Lancashire recruiting district— say, seven o'clock on Friday evening."
  Captain Hunt subsequently called upon the young gentleman and took him to the office of Messrs. Armstrong, 2, Russell Court, St. James Palace, by whom the following advertisement had been inserted in The Times:—
  Army, Militia, and East India Company's Service. Gentlemen desirous of entering any of the above services, or of effecting exchanges in any of them, may receive full information and assistance to accomplish their wishes from Messrs. Armstrong and Co., 2, Russell Court, St. James Palace, who can also furnish 100 men for gentlemen qualified to obtain ensigncies in the Line."
  At the office of Messrs. Armstrong he was required to fill up an application to the authorities for leave to raise fifty men for the Cavalry; and he was then taken down by Captain Hunt to the Horse Guards. He was left alone in one of the lobbies connected with the Commander in Chief's office, and Captain Hunt upon his return stated that he had had an interview with some person whom he did not name. They then proceeded to the office of General Wetherall, where the same scene took place. After a few days an answer was returned from the Horse Guards to the effect that they would not permit this young gentleman to raise men, and would

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  not avail themselves of his services. The young gentleman then went to Messrs. Armstrong, and they said, "It is not of the least consequence; we expected that you would be refused; but we will get you your commission—here is a letter saying so." This was a letter from Captain Hunt to the following purport:—
  "Patten Arms, Sunday, Warrington.
  " Dear—,—I send my Friend Stringer to London to complete our agreement. He is my partner, and empowered to act for me. Loose (sic) no time, as the recruiting will be very slack, as soon as agriculturists commence their farm operations. Drop me a line as soon as you hear from Ireland. My reason for naming an additional £50 was that we might be enabled to give a greater inducement to recruits than other fellows who are in the field here, and thus give you the first choice of a regiment."
  Well, the following letter was received from Messrs. Armstrong:—
  "2, Russell Court, St. James's Palace,
  March 9.
  "Dear Sir,—As we shall make the application in the proper quarter in order to receive the permission to raise fifty men for the cavalry and thus obtain a cornetcy, we beg you will have the deposit made at our bankers, according to the arrangement we made with you.
  "We trust that you will pardon our reminding you of the necessity of complying with our conditions, as we have to make ourselves responsible to other parties."
  He (Mr. Bagwell) came to London at that time, and the young gentleman, having sent to him, he went to the office of the Messrs. Armstrong; and, this part of the business resting on his own testimony, he was ready to state on his honour as a Member of that House,-or on his oath before the tribunals of the country, the propositions made by those gentlemen. There was no disguise on his part whatever, and he asked them how it was to be done. They said, "It is no matter how the tiling is to be done; we will get fifty men and a commission for your nephew; as soon as the commission is got you will pay £550, and we shall not require one shilling from you before." He asked whether they would apply to Sir Charles Yorke or to General Wetherall, and they did not seem to like the application to either of those authorities; and he then wrote to say that he would have nothing more to do with the transaction; upon which he received the following letter:—
  "2, Russell Court, St. James's Palace,
  March 12.
  "Messrs. Armstrong and Co. have received Mr. Bagwell's letter, declining to accept the proposal they had made to Mr. —. Messrs. Arm strong would suggest the propriety of Mr. Bagwell
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  cautioning his ward not to enter into arrangements entailing a vast amount of trouble and expense on those with whom he is in treaty, unless he be prepared to carry out his proposals. It was fortunate that Messrs. Armstrong did not rely solely on promises, or they might have been seriously compromised in high quarters, and feel greatly indebted to Mr. Bagwell for having saved them from the dilemma."
  He then received on Thursday last the following letter from Captain Hunt:—
  "Pattern, Arms, Warrington, Lancashire.
  "Dear Sir,—Having known you some years ago, and having enjoyed myself frequently on your beautiful grounds at Marlfield, besides having been in communication with your ward about raising men for his commission, I beg to inform you that you have made some grave errors in your misstatements in your address to the House. What could your object have been in standing between your ward and his commission? Surely you are not so ' verdant' as not to know that in London money is everything, and that for money properly applied, money I say, mind you, properly applied, any desire can be gratified. Now, Sir, if you are disposed to forward your ward's wishes, I repeat — what has been already told you—that for £550 I will procure him fifty men, and thus entitle him to a commission in the cavalry, and will also furnish him with two first-class chargers for £220.
  "Yours faithfully," DE VERE HUNT.
  "It may be well to acquaint you that I possess the highest influence in very high quarters, and to impress upon you that I require no money, not one shilling until Mr. —shall have been gazetted. You are at perfect liberty to publish this letter."
  The gravamen of the matter was this— that here was a man, who in one letter signed himself as a captain in the recruiting service, who went to public offices, went through all the forms, and stated that he had authority to get commissions for sums under the regulation price. He (Mr. Bagwell) applied the other night to the right hon. and gallant General at the head of the War Department (General Peel), and he expected that some notice would have been taken of these agents; but no notice, as far as he was aware, had been taken of the matter since. It struck him that the whole affair might be a mere swindle; yet he did say that when people advertised themselves as army agents, and went through the form of going to the proper authorities, some notice ought to have been taken of the matter by the authorities at the Horse Guards, in order that a stop might be put to these proceedings. If that had been done when he first mentioned the subject in that House the House might probably have been spared the present lengthy appeal; but when it was stated over and over again by these people that they could procure these commissions, by which representation the public were

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  probably gulled of their money, he thought it was a grievous error on the part of those who stood in a position of high authority not to take any notice of the matter. If there was one thing more than another necessary in the administration of the Army it was, not only that no irregular applications such as he had alluded to should be tolerated, but the administration should be above all suspicion. He should be ready, if necessary, to move for a Committee in order to prove before it all that he had stated; and if a stop should be put to these proceedings, and to robbing young gentlemen of their money, he should consider that, at all events, he had done some good. If he had let the matter rest, he did not think he should have been performing his duty as a parent, magistrate, or Member of that House. He left the matter now in the hands of the House, but at the proper time, if the reply he should receive from the Government should not be satisfactory, he should be prepared to move for a Committee to inquire into and report to the House upon the alleged system of granting commissions in the army, without purchase or examination, upon the condition of bringing a certain number of recruits for Her Majesty's service.
  COLONEL KNOXsaid, that before the right hon. General the Secretary for the War Department answered the statement just made, he wished to express his opinion that the House were much indebted to the hon. Member for Clonmel for having brought the subject before them. There could not be a more scandalous system than that which appeared to have been adopted. He did not know by whom it was introduced, but it was ruining the service; and every word stated with regard to those agents he knew to be true. They were going on with this trading with commissions under the sanction of the War Department. He did not blame the present Government; for it was carried on long before they came into power, but it was a nefarious system. An education test had been laid down for young gentlemen entering the army; they had to go before examiners, and their names were placed on a list for commissions according to rotation. They often waited until they were too old to enter the service; while commissions were given to men who were allowed to raise fity men for the cavalry, and one hundred men for the infantry, without any educational test whatever. The men having that permission went to these agents,
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  and the jobbing which went on at the offices of the agents was beyond all belief. He thought it discreditable to a country like this that young men should be brought into the army without that test which had been laid down as the basis upon which young gentlemen should enter the service. He hoped the head of the War Department would take very strong measures to put a stop to these proceedings.
  GENERAL CODRINGTONthought the hon. Member for Clonmel ought to have inquired further before bringing this case before the House. Had he done so, he would have found that transactions such as that of which he complained might be made the subject of public advertisement, but that, in the end, the promises they made turned out to be unfounded. However, these things were not done by the regular army agents who were authorised by Government, and the proper distinction ought to be drawn between those gentlemen and persons who entered into the bargains complained of. These latter persons offered to get commissions for a larger sum of money. [Mr. BAGWELL: No, but smaller.] He meant that they procured the necessary number of men by giving a larger bounty than the recruiting sergeant, and so interfering with the regular recruiting for the army. This was, however, a matter with which the War Department was in no way connected. The persons who published those advertisements, and made those promises, had no official authority to do so.
  GENERAL PEEL: I trust the House will believe that the Government are anxious to afford every information in respect of the Orders issued by the Horse Guards and the War Department. I am now in a position to give a fuller explanation to the hon. Gentleman than I was when he first mentioned this matter. The date of the circular which originated the granting of the commissions, to which the hon. Gentleman has more particularly referred, is 1st September, 1857. It will be in the recollection of the House, that in the month of August last year almost every available regiment had been sent from this country to India, and the moment was one of great pressure for raising additional troops. His Royal Highness the Commander in Chief, with the consent of the noble Lord then at the head of the War Department, issued the circular to which I have just referred. That circular was printed, and made known throughout the kingdom. It announced

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  the adoption of the principle of giving commissions without an examination, on the condition of the applicant raising a certain number of men. But the House should remember that this was an exceptional case. There was a large and sudden drain of troops; and some new measure became necessary in order to obtain a sufficient number of recruits for the requirements of the service. The result has been this: that whilst, during the whole year 1855, only 33,000 men were raised, 36,000 have been raised during the last six months. This order, whether a good or a bad one, was made perfectly known to the public. The conditions it prescribed were these: That any person who was a candidate for raising this number of men should, in the first place, present himself to the Adjutant General in England, to Lord Seaton in Ireland, or to Lord Melville in Scotland. On obtaining the sanction of one of those authorities to his raising the men, he was to produce certificates of his baptism, of his moral character, and to comply with certain other prescribed forms; but he was not to be subjected to that examination which other young gentlemen entering the army in the ordinary way were obliged to pass. Having obtained permission from the Horse Guards to raise a certain number of men, he was not to make use of the services of the recruiting sergeant, but was to report himself to the officer in the district in which he proposed to raise the recruits. He had to bring the men to this officer, who gave him credit for them; and as soon as the required number were enlisted, the officer reported this fact to the Horse Guards, and the gentleman got the commission. The consequence of this circular was, that a great many gentlemen applied for permission to raise men, and these candidates were taken from the list exactly in the order in which they applied; and no person, by any possibility, could have obtained through an agent permission to raise men. But, having obtained the permission from the proper authority, the question arose how to raise them. There, I have no doubt, the system of agency which has been referred to commences. "Get your permission to raise the men, then lodge the sum of money we require, and we shall raise the men." No doubt that was the substance of the agreement with those various agents. Many of these young gentlemen who applied for, and obtained, permission to raise men, would no doubt
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  have been unable of themselves to do so. They must employ some agent; and the House will see that unless those agents gave more bounty than the recruiting sergeant they would have very little chance of getting recruits in preference to him. The amount of money to be supplied by the candidate for a commission is, therefore, a mere matter of arrangement between himself and his agent, and is confined merely to the number of men, and not to the obtaining the commission for money; for these commissions cannot be obtained by purchase, and that, when obtained, they have no money value, for the recipients have no power of selling them. The power of selling such commissions depends entirely upon the length of time for which the officers who receive them remain in the service, and permission to sell can only be obtained after service for a certain number of years. I can only say, on the the part of the military authorities, that nothing can have been more open than their conduct, and they were most anxious that any inquiry which may be considered necessary shall be instituted with regard to persons who advertised that they were able, for a certain sum of money, to obtain commissions. There is no authority for such statements, and the arrangements are mere private bargains between the agents and these young men, of which the Horse Guards have no knowledge. With regard to the particular case brought forward by the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell), Messrs. Armstrong stated that that gentleman's nephew, being a candidate for a cornetcy, and having failed in his examination applied to the firm; that they replied, "Get the proper authority from the Adjutant General, lodge £550 in your own name at our banker's, and we will endeavour to get you the men." Messrs. Armstrong assert that they never undertook, or pretended to undertake, to obtain commissions; but that all they said was, "First obtain your authority from the Adjutant General, and the raising of the men is a matter of bargain between you and ourselves." I am, however, able to inform the House that the system under which these proceedings have taken place no longer exists. The Government consider that there is not now such a pressure for troops as justifies its continuance, although, when it was originally adopted, it undoubtedly afforded a just and proper means of obtaining recruits.
  Mr. BAGWELLwished to add that

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  when a reply was received from the Horse Guards refusing permission to his nephew to raise men for Her Majesty's service, the agents said, "We expected that answer; but no matter; we will get you the order to raise the men, and you shall have your commission." He (Mr. Bagwell) saw the agents on Thursday, when they told him, "We shall have the order for your nephew to raise the men on Tuesday; on getting that order we will raise the men, and when your nephew's name is in the Gazette you will pay over to us £550."
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid he did not understand the hon. Member for Clonmel to accuse the Government of countenancing the system to which he had called attention; but he (Viscount Bury) wished to know whether there were no means of preventing persons from holding out these inducements which frequently occasioned very serious inconveniences to young men who were desirous of obtaining commissions. He was able to confirm the statement of the Secretary for War as to the non-complicity of the Horse Guards in these proceedings. The son of a constituent of his, who had been reading for a commission, was advised to apply to a gentleman who called himself a captain, but who he believed was not a captain at all, who said he could raise the requisite number of men and obtain a commission on payment of £450. Upon this the young gentleman left off reading, although he was to have been examined next month. The agent or captain told him that as he could raise the 100 men and obtain the commission, it would be quite unnecessary to continue his studies. However, since the hon. Member for Clonmel had brought the subject under the notice of the Secretary for War the captain informed the young gentleman that a new order had been issued, that preference was to be given to applicants who had passed their examination, and therefore advised him to resume his reading. But the examination was to take place next month. He (Viscount Bury) had yesterday called with this young man upon Sir C. Yorke, who repudiated all knowledge of the proceeding; so, of course, the Horse Guards had nothing to do with the matter, which was one entirely between the young man and the gentleman who had deceived him; and Sir Charles very sensibly advised the young gentleman to resume his studies. The £450 had not been paid; but the inconvenience to this young man was that he had lost three months' reading, and, as the examination took place next
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  month, it was not improbable that he would be unable to pass. He (Viscount Bury) had mentioned this case to show that army agents were not the only persons engaged in these practices.
  VISCOUNT GODERICHexpressed his gratification at the statement of the hon. and Gallant General, the Secretary for War, that an end had been put to the system to which the hon. Member for Clonmel had called attention. One result of the plan clearly was that young men who were unable to pass the examination, or who did not like to continue their studies, had means open to them of obtaining commissions. No doubt, the theory upon which the system was established was that persons possessing local influence in particular districts would be able to obtain recruits, who might not otherwise be induced to enter the service, in consideration of which they should themselves receive commissions. The fact seemed to be, however, that young gentlemen in the position he had described had resorted to agents, who had gone, if he might so say, into the man-market, and had competed with the recruiting sergeant. He (Viscount Goderich) did not believe, however, that under this system a single man had been induced to enter Her Majesty's service who would not have done so in the ordinary course of recruiting, and he hoped some assurance would be given that such a system would not be re-established.

THE RECENT RIOTS IN DUBLIN.

  QUESTION.
  THE O'DONOGHUEbegged to ask the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Lord Naas): Whether the statements which have appeared in certain Irish newspapers, alleging that mobs have paraded the public streets of the city of Dublin (on Saturday last), in some instances breaking the windows of police stations and of other places, molesting peaceable inhabitants, forming party processions, and committing other outrages, have taken place? Whether any measures have been adopted by the Irish Government for the punishment of such offenders, and for the future repression of similar offences? He would give the noble Lord a piece of information which was, perhaps, not altogether new to him—namely, that attempts were being made in Ireland, by parties interested, to gather from these unfortunate occurrences the materials for a religious agitation. He hoped the Government, if for their own interest only

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  would take precautions in order to prevent any foundation being given for such an agitation.
  LORD NAAS: With regard to the case to which the hon. Member for Kerry has called attention, it is quite true that a riotous assembly took place in Dublin on Saturday night—the day after the unfortunate collision between the students of Trinity College and the police. Subsequently I had an interview with the Provost of Trinity College, and he assured me there was every reason to believe that in the assemblage which congregated on Saturday night, very few of the students of Trinity College took a part. The assemblage was a mob, who paraded though the streets in a riotous manner; but the amount of injury done to the property of the citizens was confined to the breaking of four panes of glass in one of the police stations. Three or four persons were arrested by the police; but it was not found necessary to inflict any punishment, and most of the parties taken into custody were discharged by the magistrates on Monday morning. I am happy to say that since then the peace of the city has been preserved, owing to the precautions taken by the Government. No doubt very great excitement has prevailed in Dublin since the unfortunate occurrence at the College, but I am glad to think that that excitement is fast dying away. Since I came into the House this evening, I have received a telegraphic despatch, stating that the city is now perfectly quiet, and that there has been no further disturbance. I can assure the hon. Member that it is the intention of the Government to have a full inquiry into the circumstances connected with that unfortunate occurrence at the College, and that no effort will be spared to prevent the excitement from taking a party or sectarian character. Their only desire in the matter is to do equal justice to all parties.

INCUMBERED ESTATES COURT— THE DUBLIN RIOTS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DE VEREsaid, he rose to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland to state the intentions of the Government in relation to the Incumbered Estates Court, and especially whether it is intended to make permanent the system for sale of incumbered estates, and to extend the benefit of the system to unincumbered estates. He thought no Irish gentleman who had witnessed the
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  operation of this Act could have any doubt as to the benefits which the country had derived from it, or could doubt that it was unjust and unfair to those who wished to sell unincumbered estates that they should find their market spoilt by the existing system for the sale of incumbered estates.
  LORD NAAS: In reply to the question of the hon. Member for Limerick, I can only repeat the answer which I gave the other night to another hon. Member—that the question, which is a most important one, is under the consideration of the Government. Either I or my right hon. Friend the Attorney General for Ireland will be prepared, at the earliest possible opportunity after Easter, to say what are the intentions of the Government with respect to the Incumbered Estates Court. As I said the other night, we propose, if possible, to bring in a permanent measure during the present Session; but if we find that we cannot do this, it is our intention to introduce a Bill to continue the court for a year.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALD MR. J. D. FITZGERALD, though not at all desirous to press the Government for any premature decision on the subject of the Incumbered Estates Court, could not help saying that the answer given by the noble Lord was not perfectly satisfactory. The question was one of absorbing interest in Ireland. The powers of the Court expired in July next, and it was subject to another casualty, for if this Session of Parliament should terminate in the interval, the Court would fall to the ground. Now, the institution was one from which Ireland had derived advantages scarcely to be overestimated; and the question put by his hon. Friend, (Mr. De Vere) did not in any way press the Government to state the details of any measure, but only to inform the House what the principle of their policy was to be—namely, whether the system was to be perpetuated and extended so as to include unincumbered estates. In reply the noble Lord simply said, that some time after Easter the Government would state the course they intended to pursue. Now, the subject was one which had occupied the attention of the House year after year, which had been fully canvassed and discussed, and he did not think it was unreasonable even now to ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Walpole) to state what the policy of the Government was, if they had resolved on any. The anxiety felt on this question in Ireland was extreme. Apprehensions were enter-

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  tained lest by some casualty this valuable institution should be allowed to perish; and the effect of the communications which reached him almost daily on the subject was, that a continuance Bill would not, under the circumstances, be deemed satisfactory. The view of the late Government was, that the two recommendations of the Committee of 1856, embodied in the first two Resolutions, should be carried out— namely, that the system should be perpetuated and its benefits extended, so that proprietors of unincumbered estates should be able to go into the market and have the advantage of offering to purchasers a statutable title. Had the late Ministry remained in office, it would probably have been his duty to lay on the table of the House a measure to this effect. Great anxiety was felt as to the intentions of the Government on this subject, and not unnaturally, in consequence of the avowed opinions of the present Lord Chancellor and the Attorney General for Ireland, who had both been steady opponents of the Incumbered Estates Court. The former right hon. Gentleman had declared that the system of giving Parliamentary titles was monstrous, unrighteous, and unjust, and that the measure would be ruinous to the Irish landed interest and fatal to the prosperity of the country; and in 1849 he did what he could to prevent the measure from becoming law, and he had since consistently opposed it. He might say the same for the present Attorney General for Ireland, who opposed in Committee two propositions for making the Court permanent and extending its action to unincumbered estates. Under such circumstances —these having been the opinions of the present Irish law officers—the country were doubly anxious to know, what would be the course taken by the Government, He did not seek to ascertain from the Government, so soon after their accession to office, in what shape they proposed to carry out their views in reference to the continuance of the Incumbered Estates Court; but he trusted he should receive from them some more satisfactory statement than that which he had just heard, as to whether it was their intention or not to perpetuate a system from which Ireland had derived so much advantage.
  MR. VANCEthought the hon. and learned Gentleman might have been satisfied with the answer which had been given by the noble Lord to the question which had
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  been put to him. The hon. and learned Gentleman was aware of the very short time Ministers had occupied their present seats in that House, and must also know that the Attorney General for Ireland—whose opinion on the subject it was necessary to take —had, for the last week or ten days, been engaged in the performance of his professional duties in the south of Ireland, prosecuting certain criminals for very serious offences. The hon. and learned Gentleman was exceedingly anxious to perpetuate the Incumbered Estates Court, and so was he (Mr. Vance); but it would be in the recollection of the House that the hon. and learned Gentleman had himself, not long ago, introduced a Bill to abolish that Court, and transfer its jurisdiction to the Court of Chancery. The hon. and learned Gentleman had also expressed a great desire that unincumbered properties in Ireland should be sold with an indefeasible title, the same as incumbered; but although he had been Attorney General for Ireland for several years, and had promised a measure of the kind, he had never introduced it. Irish Members had long felt anxious respecting this subject, and it certainly was a serious grievance that, whilst properties could be transferred and money borrowed with the utmost ease through the Incumbered Estates Court, gentlemen who had held estates from time immemorial experienced the greatest difficulty in doing either, in consequence of the competition which prevailed. He would merely further observe, that he thought it was going beyond the usual licence of opposition, when a Government had only just taken their places, to ask for the details of a measure of this description, which could not possibly be arranged until the law officers of the Crown had had an opportunity afforded them of meeting and consulting with their colleagues in the Government.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, it was rather unusual, and certainly not very convenient, on the Motion for the adjournment of the House, to raise questions with regard to the particular nature and character of Bills which Government might or might not introduce, and as to what was the course they intended to take on those Bills, before the Government had had an opportunity of stating their views respecting them, and laying them upon the table of the House. With reference to the question which had been put by the hon. Gentleman opposite, he should have thought that, after it had

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  been answered by his noble Friend, it was unnecessary to carry the discussion further. He might, however, in reply to the observations of the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, be permitted to state that the Act of Parliament under the operation of which the Incumbered Estates Court now existed continued the existence of that court not only to the month of July next, hut till the end of the next ensuing Session of Parliament. But even if that were not the case, the hon. and learned Gentleman must be perfectly aware, both from the statement of his noble Friend (Lord Naas) that evening, as well as from what had passed upon a former occasion, that the Government had no intention whatever to allow the present Act to expire; but they did not feel themselves to be in a position, in the absence of the Attorney General, to lay before the House the exact nature of the measure in reference to the Incumbered Estates Court which they would be prepared to introduce. With regard to this Commission he wished the hon. and learned Gentleman to recollect that in 1856 there had been a great controversy on the subject; and that then the hon. and learned Gentleman made a proposition with reference to it totally different from that which he that evening appeared to advocate, inasmuch as he had sought to hand over its jurisdiction to several Vice Chancellors—a scheme against which the House of Commons had completely set its face. A Committee, indeed, had reported against that portion of the measure which the hon. and learned Gentleman had submitted to their notice, and had recommended the adoption of certain propositions entirely distinct from it in principle. The hon. and learned Gentleman had gone on to state that the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland had been the steady opponent of the Incumbered Estates Court Act, and had alluded in proof of that charge to the original introduction of a Bill upon the subject; leaving altogether out of consideration the circumstance that his (Mr. Walpole's) right hon. and learned Friend had placed his name upon the back of a Bill which had been introduced by the present Attorney General for Ireland, and the object of which was to establish a permanent system of Parliamentary titles to land. It was, under these circumstances, scarcely necessary, he trusted, to offer the House any further assurance that there was no danger that the system which had
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  been set on foot by the Incumbered Estates Court Bill would, under the auspices of Her Majesty's present advisers, be abolished, or that the Government would be found unwilling to extend the principle of granting a Parliamentary title to property which happened to be unincumbered. For his own part, he might observe that, having been a member of the Commission which had been appointed to investigate that important question in connection with property in England, and having subscribed his name to a Report recommending the extension of the principle of statutable title to England, he should he as anxious—perhaps more so—as any hon. Member in that House, if such a measure could be carried into effect, either in the sister country or in this, to advocate its introduction.
  MR. ELLICEquite concurred with the right hon. Gentleman opposite in thinking such discussions as that in which they were engaged extremely inconvenient. He might nevertheless be allowed to remark that he, as a member of the Commission of 1856, had felt it to be his duty to dissent from the views of his right hon. and learned Friend below him (Mr. FitzGerald), who desired to abolish the Incumbered Estates Court altogether, and, in conjunction with his right hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Sir James Graham), to object to the extension of the system of statutable title to unincumbered estates in Ireland, upon the ground that in taking that course they would be likely to interfere with the arrangements of another Commission which was engaged in dealing with that important question in relation to property in this as well as in the sister country.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDexplained that the Bill of 1856 was designed to carry out the recommendation of a Commission of which the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, the Master of the Rolls, the Solicitor General, himself, and others were members, to perpetuate the system of the Incumbered Estates Court, but to annex it to the Court of Chancery.
  MR. SLANEYexpressed his gratification at finding that it, was in contemplation to extend to England the system of granting Parliamentary titles to property.

  THE OATHS BILL.—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I may take this opportunity to state the course which I propose to take in reference to the Oaths

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  Bill, which stands for consideration on Monday next. My right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department (Mr. Walpole) asked me a few days ago whether I meant to introduce any Amendments upon the bringing up of the Report, and I then said I should move the insertion of some additional words in the preamble of the Bill. I have not, however, been enabled to come to any satisfactory conclusion with respect to those words, and I shall therefore abstain from making in the preamble the alteration to which I adverted. The only Amendment, I may add, which I intend to submit to the notice of the House is, that at the end of the oath, page 2 line 10, the words "directly or indirectly" should be omitted.
  Mr. COGANwas understood to say that it was the intention of an hon. and learned Friend of his (Mr. Deasy) to move an Amendment to the Bill similar to that which he had brought forward last year, embodying the principle that a uniform oath should be taken by Members of the Roman Catholic as well as of other religious persuasions.
  Motion agreed to.
  House at rising to adjourn till Monday next.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (£10,000,000) BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read; House in Committee.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported without Amendment.

  CUSTOMS ACTS.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  House in Committee.
  Upon the Motion of Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, the following Resolutions were agreed to:—
  "1. Resolved, That, in lieu of the Duties of Customs now chargeable on the undermentioned articles on their importation into Great Britain and Ireland, the following Duties shall be charged —namely, Bonnets of Felt, each 6d.; Manufactures of Caoutchouc, per lb. 2d.
  " 2. Resolved, That the Duties of Customs now-chargeable on the undermentioned articles, on their importation into Great Britain and Ireland, shall cease and determine—namely, Chloride of Lime; Platina Wire.
  " 3. Resolved, That, on and after the 5th day of April, 1858, the following Duties of Customs shall be charged on the articles undermentioned, on the importation thereof into the United Kingdom—namely, Stearine, the cwt., 3s. 6d.; Candles —namely, Stearine, the cwt., 3s. 6d."
  House resumed; Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.

PUBLIC HEALTH ACT (1848) AMENDMENT BILL.

  SECOND READING DEFERRED.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, that this was a measure of the late Government, and as he wished to have time to consider its provisions, he should move that the Order be postponed until Friday next.
  MR. PALKwished to say a few words with regard to this measure, which had been so constantly before the House and so constantly postponed. The Bill related to a subject than which there was none more important, or that required more consideration, and he hoped that his right hon. Friend, who would probably state on a future occasion upon what principle he intended to legislate in this matter, would clearly and emphatically inform the House that one provision of the Bill should go to the total and entire abolition of the Board of Health, and that all powers which were of a centralising character should be vested in the hands of some member of the Government, having a seat in this House, and responsible to it for the fulfilment of the duties of the department of which he would be the head.
  MR. SLANEYsaid, that as a member of the Health of Towns Commission, he had investigated the condition of many of the humble dwellings in densely populated districts, and he felt confident that there was no Bill of greater consequence to the welfare of the working classes than the one alluded to by the hon. Gentleman. He concurred with him, however, in thinking that the gentleman at the head of the Board of Health, ought always to have a seat in this House. Those provisions which enabled local bodies to carry out improvements in the drainage, cleansing, and supply of water in large towns were absolutely necessary; but he thought a clause should be introduced for preventing further interference with buildings, except the construction of such courts and alleys as had been found by experience, and had been reported by Commissions, to be inimical to the health and comfort of the humbler classes.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

EDINBURGH, &c, ANNUITY TAX.

  LEAVE.
  MR. BAXTERmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the Ministers' Money or Annuity Tax levied within the city of

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  Edinburgh, pariah of Canongate, and burgh of Montrose as vacancies occur among the present ministers, and to make provision for their successors.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, there was no objection on the part of Government to the introduction of the Bill. But the House was aware that the annuity tax was the chief source from which the clergy of Edinburgh derived their incomes, and any Bill which went to abolish it must provide something in the nature of an equivalent. It would be for the House and the Government hereafter to consider the details of the measure, and to judge whether the equivalent proposed was an adequate one or not.
  Leave given; Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. BLACK and Mr. BAXTER.
  The House adjourned at half after Six o'clock till Monday next.