Commons Sitting of 14 May 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1°Ministers' Money (Ireland); Married Women; Medical Profession (No. 2); Burial Acts Amendment.
2° Grand Juries (Ireland) Act (1836) Amendment.

THE INCUMBERED ESTATES COURTS—(IRELAND).
MR. COGANasked the Attorney General for Ireland, "whether any steps have been taken by Her Majesty's Government, in accordance with the promise given last Session, to remove the Incumbered Estates Court from Henrietta Street to the Four Courts."
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, that the Government were anxious to redeem their pledge of removing the court, but it was found that there was not ground enough at the Four Courts for the new building. Measures were now being taken
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to acquire additional land for the purpose, and a Vote of £10,000 would be taken this Session as a first instalment. The building would include a new record chamber, and some other offices which were much wanted.

CLIFFORD'S APPARATUS.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL SYKESasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether Clifford's method for lowering ships' boats while a vessel is at speed had been adopted in the navy?
  SIR C. WOODsaid, that Clifford's system had been adopted in some of the ships belonging to the navy, and was well thought of. That plan had, in consequence, been adopted already in several of those vessels.
  COLONEL SYKESasked the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, whether any alteration in the Mercantile Marino Act is contemplated; and whether, in case of alteration, the use of Clifford's method for lowering ships' boats while the vessel is at speed would be made compulsory?
  MR. LOWEwas not aware of any contemplated alteration in the Mercantile Marine Act, and if such alteration should take place, he hoped it would not be proposed to render compulsory on merchant ships any particular mode of lowering their boats.

HERRING FISHERY—QUESTION.
COLONEL SYKESasked the Secretary of the Treasury, whether the Commissioners' Report upon the Government "brand" in the herring fishery on the shores of the north-east of Scotland was to be acted on, and whether it was contemplated to afford the means of shelter to shipping and the fishing boats on that coast by improving the harbour of Wick, or by erecting piers or breakwaters on certain points of the coast.
MR. WILSONsaid, the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Scotch fisheries were divided in opinion. One portion of them recommended that the "brand" should be continued, but paid for and rendered self-supporting, the other Commissioners recommended that the "brand" should be discontinued. Those two courses were now under the consideration of the Government, who had not yet decided which recommendation they would adopt. As to the further question respect-

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ing the harbour of Wick, he had to state that it was his intention to move for a Committee to consider that and other questions relating to the establishment of harbours of refuge. He might add, that the particular question to which the hon. and gallant Member had called his attention would be one of the first which he would propose to be considered.

EMIGRATION OF CHINESE COOLIES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DUNLOPasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies—with reference to the fact, appearing from the Parliamentary paper No. 147, of last Session, that, while the emigration officer at Hong Kong had refused to grant a certificate for more than eighty-one Chinese coolies being taken to sea by the John Calvin, bound for Havannah, that vessel carried away 297 such passengers, of whom 110 perished on the voyage, by suicide and disease, and twenty-three more in quarantine and hospital at Havannah—whether the conduct of the master, in taking passengers exceeding so greatly in number that for which the certificate was granted was a contravention of the Chinese Passengers Act of 1855, and, if so, whether instructions had been given for enforcing the penalties under the bond granted at Hong Kong in terms of that Act; or, if it be not, whether Her Majesty's Government would propose an Amendment of the Act to remedy a defect which gives such occasion to kidnapping and its consequences; and whether any communication has been made to his department of an explanation having been demanded or received from the British Consul General in Cuba of the statement, so far as regards the John Calvin, contained in his Report on the cases of that vessel and the Duke of Portland, that he had minutely inquired into them, and that there was no blame whatever attached to the masters of either vessel?
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that the questions put by his hon. Friend related to a subject which had of late occupied a considerable amount of public attention. Unfortunately the retirement of the emigration officer from Hong-Kong had prevented him from receiving such detailed information upon that point as would, no doubt, otherwise have reached him. But he would state the facts of the case as accurately as he could. The John Calvin had left Hong Kong with a cargo of
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  Chinese coolies. The number on board was less than she was authorised to carry in relation to her size. But undoubtedly there had been a most important irregularity in the case, inasmuch as the emigration officer at Hong Kong, whose duty it was to ascertain that the emigrants had been voluntarily engaged, had not licensed her to carry more than eighty-one of those on board. All the passengers she had carried beyond that number had, therefore, been carried in contravention of the spirit of the Act. There seemed, however, to be some difficulty in ascertaining whether the letter, as well as the spirit of the law, had been violated. He proposed to communicate upon the matter with the law officers of the Crown, and if they should think that there were grounds for a successful prosecution of any parties, he should take care to have proceedings taken against them in the name of the Crown. If, however, on the other hand, it should appear that there existed no grounds for such a prosecution in consequence of a defect in the Act, it would be his duty to see that that defect was removed. Such an improvement would not require the interference of the Imperial legislature, but might be effected by means of a colonial regulation, under the sanction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. With regard to the Consul at Havannah, there was no reason, as far as he could judge, for imputing any blame to that officer. It seemed he had been warranted in stating that in the cases of both those vessels the passengers had been treated with humanity, and that the regulations as to the supply of the necessary provisions had been complied with. It was true that the Consul had not adverted to the irregularity as regarded the numbers on board the John Calvin; but there was reason to think that his instructions upon that point had not been sufficiently clear to have led him to inquire into the matter. The attention of the Government was being anxiously directed to the whole subject, and his noble Friend Lord Clarendon had recently determined to appoint an emigration officer at Amoy, for the purpose of affording an additional security that the provisions of the Passengers Act should be carried into effect. He could assure his hon. Friend and the House that no exertions would be spared on the part of the Government by which they could prevent unfortunate occurrences of that description.

THE "LORD RAGLAN" TROOP-SHIP.

  QUESTION.
  MR. LAURIEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it was decided that 1,000 troops with officers and women, were about to leave Kingston for the Mauritius on board the ship Lord Raglan; and whether a vessel of such tonnage is capable of containing so large a number with any comfort or safety?
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, it had not been decided that the Lord Raglan should embark 1,000 men; she would only carry 727 men; the whole number on board—including men, officers, women, and seventy children—would be only 904. As she had before carried 984 with comfort and safety, he had no apprehension but that she was quite capable of carrying the number she was now about to take.

THE CATTLE MURRAIN.—QUESTION.
LORD NAASasked the Vice President of the Board of Trade whether Her Majesty's Government had received any communications relative to the murrain said to be raging among the cattle on the Continent; and whether he would lay such communications on the table of the House?
MR. LOWEsaid, he had no objection to lay the communications which had been received on this subject on the table, but a report which had been made by Dr. Greenhough, under the directions of the Board of Trade, would in the course of a day or two be laid on the table; and as it would contain all the interesting information contained in these communications, perhaps the noble Lord would wait until he saw the Report. If however, on seeing it, the noble Lord was not satisfied, there would be no objection to the production of the original documents.

GUANO.—QUESTION.
MR. BAXTERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to send out a few small vessels of war for the purpose of searching the rainless coast of Africa and other promising localities for supplies of guano; and whether any negotiations had been entered into with the Brazilian Government for securing a right to remove nitrate of soda from the deposits lately discovered near Pernambuco.
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, there was no intention of sending out any special
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vessels to the district referred to by the hon. Member. Instructions had been sent out in 1844, in 1852, and again in 1853, to the commanding officers on various stations, including officers on the west coast of Africa, directing them to take every opportunity of ascertaining whether any guano, or places where any guano was likely to be found, existed on the coasts visited by them, or any large supplies of guano existed or were likely to be discovered on any part of the coast. Various reports had been received from naval officers on the subject, but nothing very satisfactory in the way of actual information as to the existence of guano in any great quantities or of any great value. Before sitting down he would answer a question on the same subject, of which notice had been given by another hon. Gentleman (Mr. Caird). The hon. Member wished to know whether a search for guano, nitrates, or other natural deposits of manure, formed part of the instructions to Her Majesty's naval officers at present engaged in the surveys of the coast of Egypt, the south-east coast of Africa, the south-western coast of the Pacific, and the River La Plata, all of which surveys were stated in the navy estimates to be now in progress? There was not much probability of guano being discovered on the low lands of the coast of Egypt or on the banks of La Plata; the survey of the south-east coast of Africa was a mere land survey, but with regard to the south-west Pacific orders had been given to the surveying-officers to ascertain the probability of the existence of guano. He was not aware that there were any negotiations going on with Brazil for the purpose of obtaining the right to remove nitrate of soda from the deposits lately discovered near Pernambuco.

POLITICAL OFFENDERS—WILLIAM CUFFEY.—QUESTION.
MR. THOMAS DUNCOMBEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why William Cuffey had not participated in the general amnesty granted in the spring of last year by Her Majesty to all political prisoners? It would be in the recollection of the House that, on the declaration of peace, a general amnesty was issued under which all political prisoners were set free. Some twenty-eight prisoners obtained their freedom, and some of them returned to this country; but for some reason or other William Cuffey had

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not yet been set at liberty. This had been brought under his notice by a report in the Hobart Town Daily Courier, dated February 14, 1857, of the proceedings in the Legislative Assembly there. A member asked Mr. Nairn, the representative of the Government,—
"The cause why an absolute pardon similar to those granted recently to all other political offenders (excepting those who absconded from this island), had not been issued to W. Cuffey, who was transported to this colony as a Chartist some years ago, and whose conduct here is understood to have been such as to deserve consideration?"
To this Mr. Nairn answered,—
"In July, 1855, an application was sent home for a conditional pardon, which was recommended by the Governor. No answer had been received to that despatch, nor had any despatch been received respecting an absolute pardon. Cuffey's conduct had been good."
He was sure that there must have been some omission or negligence on the part of the authorities at home, or Cuffey would have received his pardon with the other prisoners.
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, there had been no difference made between Cuffey and any other of the political prisoners. A pardon was passed under the Great Seal to all political prisoners, and a list of them was transmitted to the colonial authorities, on which list was the name of William Cuffey. It was quite possible that there might have been some delay in restoring him to freedom, in consequence of a necessary reference to the law officers as to the form in which the pardons ought to be made out, and it might be possible that the despatch containing their decision had not arrived at the colony at the date referred to by the hon. Gentleman. The delay, however, would apply equally to all the prisoners, for no difference had been made, and as Cuffey's name was on the list he would receive his pardon at the same time as the others. He had no doubt, however, but that the man had been set at liberty before this.

THE SOUND DUES—QUESTION.
MR. LIDDELLasked the First Lord of the Treasury whether there had been transmitted, along with the other documents on the subject, by Her Majesty's Minister at Copenhagen, Mr. Buchanan, a copy of the Report of the Committee of the Danish Imperial Council on the law relating to transit dues, dated Copenhagen, April the 17th; and if so, whether a copy of the same might be laid on the table of
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the House? He should also be glad to know when the Government intended to invite the opinion of the House on the very important matters contained in that convention?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that no such document had been received by the Government from Mr. Buchanan. With regard to the other part of the question, due notice would be given as to the day when the subject of the convention would be brought before the House.

EDUCATION—QUESTION.
MR. SLANEYasked the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich, whether it was his intention to bring in any Bill this Session on the important subject of education?
SIR J. PAKINGTONsaid, that he did not intend to move for leave to introduce any Education Bill this Session, as he thought it would be quite useless for any private Member to attempt independent legislation this Session.

THE "URGENT" AND THE "MEGÆRA."

  QUESTION.
  ADMIRAL WALCOTTsaid, he wished to put a question to the First Lord of the Admiralty in reference to a statement made by him on a previous evening, when, stating the circumstances under which the Urgent troop-ship had put into Corunna. It was of the highest importance that statements made by a Minister of the Crown, on matters of this description, should be unimpeachable, and he was sure, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would be obliged to him for calling his attention to a letter in The Times newspaper, in which his statement that the Urgent had put into Corunna in consequence of having met with severe gales and heavy seas was directly contradicted, and it was asserted that she went in in smooth water and calm weather. ["Order !"] If he was out of order, he would put himself in order by moving the Adjournment of the House, but he desired to have a satisfactory explanation, and looked with confidence to obtaining one from the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty.
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he was very much obliged to the gallant Admiral for having given him an opportunity of setting himself right with the House after the attack which had been made on his

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  veracity. He had been accused of having deceived the House by a false statement; but the only foundation for that charge was obtained by putting that into his mouth which he had never said, and of course it was easy enough to contradict a statement which had been misrepresented. He was accused of having said that the Urgent had been driven into Corunna by bad weather; but he had never said any such thing. On the contrary, he had read to the House a letter from her commander, in which it was stated that she steamed into Corunna in smooth water and fine weather. It was of the Megœra that he had said that she had been driven to enter Corunna by bad weather, and he had stated that a large merchantman which had been out in the same gale had been driven back, and had entered Plymouth under a jurymast. That statement applied to the Megœra and not to the Urgent. Before sitting down, the House would be glad to hear that he had received a letter from the commander of the Transit, written off the Cape de Verd island, in which he stated that the performance of the vessel under steam was of the most satisfactory description, the working of the machinery was good, and the speed averaged nine knots an hour, and that the health of the crew and of the men was most satisfactory.

STEAM-PACKET COMMUNICATION BETWEEN DUBLIN AND HOLYHEAD.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GROGANsaid, he should be glad if the Secretary for the Treasury would state what instructions had been given with regard to the providing of new berths for steam-vessels at Holyhead, and the construction of a tramway from the landing pier to the railway station.
  MR. WILSONsaid, that it had been represented to the Treasury by the company which proposed to undertake the mail service between the metropolis and Dublin that very great facilities would be given if the railway were continued from the Holyhead station down to the place where the vessels were brought up, and also that considerable delay would be avoided by bringing up outside instead of inside the pier, so that the vessels might come flush with the railway, and allow the passengers and mails to be landed at once upon the line. In consequence of those representations, Mr. Rendell had been
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  placed in communication with those gentlemen and the railway authorities, and preparations were being made, both for carrying the railway down to the pier and also for the construction of a new pier for landing the passengers and mails, which would obviate the necessity of going round the old one, as at present. Every arrangement, in fact, was being made for the accommodation of that service.

  NAVY ESTIMATES.
  SIR CHARLES WOODwished to state that the Navy Estimates for the year, which he had laid on the table, would be delivered to Members on the following day. In these Estimates there was nothing new, they were precisely similar to those which were submitted before the dissolution of the late Parliament; and he hoped, therefore, there would be no objection to their being proceeded with on Monday next. He had just laid on the table a paper, stating the sums which had been voted on account, and the sums remaining to be voted, with of course the difference between what had been voted and the whole amount required for the service of the year.
MARRIED WOMEN BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  SIR ERSKINE PERRY, in asking for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law of property as it affects married women, said, he regretted that some measure on the subject had not been proposed by Government. The assurance given during the last Session by his hon. and learned Friend the present Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, had led him to believe that such would have been the case. On that occasion he had brought forward some Resolutions for the purpose of contrasting the different principles which are applied by Courts of Equity and Courts of Common Law to the property of married women, when the late Attorney General admitted fully that the rules of the common law were injurious and unjust, and intimated an intention to introduce in the next Session a satisfactory measure. He (Sir E. Perry) fully admitted, however, that the difficulty inherent in the subject, and the little discussion it had undergone in this House, were sufficient reasons why the Government should not be precipitate in their legislation, and all that could be expected on the part of those who object

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  to the present law was a patient inquiry into the ground of their objections, and of the principles on which they contend a wiser law might be framed. In order to guard himself from the charge of presumption in venturing to propose an Amendment in an institute of social law, wherein he admitted legislation to be so difficult, he would crave leave to say that the subject had been most carefully canvassed for many months by the Law Amendment Society, of which several distinguished Gentlemen on both sides of this House are Members, and the measure he proposed was founded on the principles almost unanimously adopted by them, after deliberate and lengthened consideration; and, for himself, he would say he had too much profound respect for the House to have neglected any resource which industry or diligence might supply, in order to furnish materials fit for being brought before the notice of the Legislation, in considering the present state of the law. Before entering on the question, he would state that he was advocating no speculative or theoretic reform, but a measure framed to meet an acknowledged evil. During the last Session of Parliament nearly 25,000 petitioners, men and women, comprising many of the most distinguished names in literature, science, and art, and belonging to the most influential classes of society, complained to this House of the injustice of the present law, and of its harsh bearing on the interests of the great majority who depend on their industry and labour. Having pointed out the grievance, they now patiently and confidently relied on the wisdom of the Legislature to afford redress.
  There was another reason which appeared to make speedy legislation on this subject extremely desirable. In another place, attempts had been made to alter the law of England as respects divorce, and to establish as a right the power of dissolving the marriage tie in certain cases. But, although this right had been claimed in certain vehement and very eloquent pamphlets, as founded on indubitable justice, no popular demand had arisen on the subject. Divorce practically did not exist, and never had existed in this country, and we certainly had no reason to believe that the people of England desired that the facilities of divorce which existed in some Protestant countries so much to the corruption of morals therein should be introduced into England. The House had not received a single petition on the subject, and it cer-
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  tainly was one which was the most dangerous and the most difficult for a legislator to meddle with. But the House had received grievous complaints as to the abuses of the law of property which occur in the married state. When misconduct occurs on the part either of the husband or the wife, the main object and design of the innocent party is to be relieved from all pecuniary liability arising out of the illstarred union, and his firm belief was, that if a wise and comprehensive law, regulating the enjoyment of property between husband and wife were passed, all demand or necessity for tampering with the indissolubility of marriage would disappear. The objections to the common law of England, as it affected the property of married women was, that it was unjust in principle, unlike the law of all other civilized nations, a departure from the principles of the old common law itself, and above all, grievous in its operation on the community at large. He would touch on these points lightly, as he understood the introduction of the Bill would not be opposed. By the law of England, the act of marriage hands over the whole of a woman's personal property to her husband, and reduces her to a mere nonentity. She cannot acquire property; she cannot sue or be sued, and, indeed, has no civil rights which she can assert in a court of justice. Nay more, it would be found that, in all questions of property between husband and wife, either by decisions of courts of justice or by the express enactments of the legislature, the husband had been preferred, and the interests of the wife sacrificed. Thus, with respect to a woman's dower or life interest in her husband's lands after his death, the Courts denied it to the widow out of the equitable lands of the husband; but when a similar question arose as to the equitable lands of the wife, they gave the husband his life interest therein, or what is called his curtesy. And now the Legislature has enabled husbands to deprive their wives of dower altogether. So with respect to the widow's right to a third of the personal estate of her husband, the Courts allowed husbands to leave away the whole of their personalty by will; and thus a wife, giving all to her husband on marriage, was entitled by the present law to absolutely nothing in return. Yet, with amusing self-complacency, Sir William Blackstone laid down "that the female sex are great favourites of the law of England."

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  Now, the Roman law, which was universally allowed to have dealt with rights of property with more practical good sense and comprehensive views than the codes of other nations, gave the married women full rights over all such portions of her own property, as she had not handed over by ante-nuptial agreement to her husband to bear the charges of the marriage. The German law deals with the property of husband and wife on the principle of community of goods, or communio bonorum; but though it allows the administration to remain in the hands of the husband, it recognizes the clear right of the wife to her share in this common property, which she may assert either in the case of improper conduct on the part of the husband, or on the dissolution of the marriage. Nay, the early English law pursued the same liberal principle of recognizing equal rights on the part of the wife, and dealt with the only property which was then of sufficient value to be regarded seriously by the law, namely, real estate, on terms as beneficial to the wife as to the husband. The common law did not and does not transfer the wife's property in land to her husband, but recognizes a distinct title in each, and whilst it gave to the husband a life-interest in the wife's lands after her death if there happened to be a child born, it gave to the wife a third part in her husband's lands whether there was a child born or not by way of recompense. With respect to personal property which, in the days when the rules of the common law sprung up, was too insignificant to have much attention paid to it, although the law, founded no doubt on usage, gave it to the husband absolutely; the old English law, like the law of all the German nations, recognized the absolute right on the part of the wife to take one-third of all the common stock of personalty on her husband's death. This right, Sir William Blackstone tells us, married women lost by "imperceptible degrees;" that is to say, husbands assuming the right to bequeath all their property, the courts of justice recognized such wills, and gradually judge-made law grew up which effectually deprived wives of their clear and indisputable right.
  The law of England on this head then being thus one-sided, being, unlike most laws, all in favour of the stronger, not of the weaker party, and being founded on a different principle from that which has governed the legislation of other countries, English jurists are undoubtedly called upon
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  to justify this anomaly. For the credit of the legal profession, there are scarcely any who defend the English law as it is; difficulties are suggested as to the alteration, but the injustice of the present law is pretty generally admitted. There are, however, some sages in the law, and if I mistook not the argument last year of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) he must be one of them who defend the law in all its vigour. He (Sir E. Perry) had heard the justification placed in as clear and forcible terms as it was capable of being couched in: "the law throws on husbands the maintenance of wife and children and the education of the latter; he is the proper judge how these duties shall be performed, and therefore he ought to have all the wife's personalty to enable him to perform these duties." But this was not a logical conclusion. Even if it be correctly stated that the father is bound by law to maintain and educate his children, and that he ought to dispose of his wife's personalty for these matters, what if there were no children, if the wife died a week after the marriage, if the husband had a mistress, was it just, was it reasonable that he should be allowed in all these cases to have the absolute property in his wife's personalty? to squander it away, or to give it to his own natural children? But the present law allowed it, and grievous misapplication of the property constantly happened.
  The argument, however, was unsound in another particular; the conclusion was not supported by the promises; but the premises themselves were not correctly stated. The rights of the husband are based on his supposed liability to the charges arising out of the marriage, but this liability is stated much too broadly. It was true a husband is bound to maintain his wife according to his station; he is not bound to maintain his children according to theirs, or to educate them at all. The law of England has been content, and on the whole wisely, to leave these duties to be governed by the laws of nature, by the strong parental feeling which induces the great majority of mankind to make all the sacrifices that may be required for the welfare of their offspring. But this parental feeling was not less strong, it was probably much stronger, in the female bosom; and if the law could safely leave man unfettered to perform such duties towards his children, there could be no necessity to take away a

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  mother's property from her for fear that she should be less sensible to the calls of duty and the claims of those whom she has brought forth in her travail.
  He contended, therefore, that the present law was wholly unjust in principle, and that the reasoning brought forward in its support was unsound. But those who had approached this House as petitioners relied mainly on the grievous operation of the present law in practice. They were ready, if an opportunity was offered to them, to adduce a mass of evidence in cases which had come within their own observation, and they contended that the evils of the present law extended to all circles, although they were chiefly felt amongst the industrial classes of the community.
  It was not necessary now to bring forward examples of the evil operation of the law; they had been given copiously in many late publications, and those who had examined into the subject knew how frequently the law was taken advantage of for the most selfish and basest purposes. But he would mention one case, which was related by an eminent solicitor as having lately occurred. In a letter, which appeared in a late number of the Edinburgh Review, he related that, having been called in by a lady of rank to stop the marriage of the daughter, who had eloped with an officer, and who was possessed of considerable fortune, which stood in her own name, in the funds, he arrived with the mother at the church just previous to the marriage; but, from the girl being of age, was only able to succeed in postponing it for twenty-four hours, during which time, however, the bridegroom, full of professions, consented to settle the lady's fortune on herself. The articles were prepared and signed in the vestry, and obtained the attestation of the officiating clergyman, and the solicitor was fully satisfied with the solemnity of the proceedings and the apparent truthfulness of the bridegroom. But, with the caution generated by his professional habits and his knowledge of human nature, he thought it fit, on the same day, to put what is called a distringas on the lady's stock; and most fortunately he did so, for at the earliest possible period the husband, unknown to his wife, proceeded to the Bank of England, with proofs of his marriage in his hand, and demanded the transfer of the Stock to his own name. The distringas stopped him, and the fortune was subsequently settled on the lady.
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  And now with respect to the remedy. If asked what should be the governing principle of any sound law of property for married people, he would say that it should be left entirely in their own power to make whatever arrangements they please before marriage as to the enjoyment of their fortunes. Such power existed at present by law, and needed no alteration. Legislation was only required for those cases wherein, either from improvidence or ignorance, or the absence of any fortune at the time of marriage, no settlement had been made. For all these cases, he was convinced, after long and earnest consideration, and after repeated conferences with many most learned and experienced men who had devoted their best attention to the inquiry, that no adequate protection could be given to married women, except by leaving them in the enjoyment of their own fortunes and acquisitions. By the law of England, a single woman was capable of exercising all the civil rights of property, and the responsibilities of property fell upon her likewise. By the highly artificial rule, which had grown up as to marriage, all these rights were denied to an English married woman, and her existence as a legal person was denied by the law. By a fiction of law, husband and wife are considered one person. Like most legal fictions, these had worked great evil, and, amongst the wealthier classes, had been got rid of by the interposition of courts of equity. The remedy was to abolish this fiction altogether, but your written laws accord with the laws of nature and good sense, and let a married woman stand exactly in the same relation to property the day after her marriage as she did the day before,
  If this principle was once introduced into our law, it would of course follow, that the responsibilities of property would attach on a woman married, and that she would be liable on her own contracts at law, as she is now in equity, when she has separate estate. By this means that extraordinary anomaly in the law as to the liability of husbands for their wife's debts, contracted before marriage, would be abolished. A husband was not liable for the debts of his wife after marriage, except those which he had authorized her to contract, but he was liable for any amount of debt contracted before marriage, and this was the logical and inevitable consequence of giving all the wife's property to the husband. The same conclusion was applic-

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  able to all the wrongful acts of a married woman, which might cause damage to another; the husband might have done his utmost to check the slanderous tongue of his wife, and to have inculcated charitable feelings towards her neighbour; but if she infringed the law in any respect, it was the husband alone on whom the pecuniary responsibility fell. He was quite sure that he spoke the sense of the women of England, when he stated that they desired no immunity on this score; they felt that moral responsibility attached to the uncontrolled acts of every individual, and that the civil sanction ought to coincide with what both Christianity and the precepts of sound morality dictate. In seeking to introduce the principle of giving married women equal rights of property with their husbands, the House has the security of knowing that it is entering upon no new field, but on ground amply tested by experience. It was the principle of the civil law, which was once designated by Lord Lyndhurst, as the noblest monument of human wisdom the world has yet seen. But, what was more germane to a discussion on English jurisprudence, it was the same principle as had been adopted by nearly all the States of America, who having imported the common law of England, have endeavoured to improve upon it. He was enabled to give the House some valuable evidence as to the success which had attended the alterations of the law in the United States. The Law Amendment Society, having put itself in communication with some American jurists, as to the state and operations of the law in that country, had received a letter from a most eminent man, whose name was well known in England, Mr. David Dudley Field, and he (Sir E. Perry), would take the liberty of reading a portion of it to the House.
  "New York, Jan. 29, 1857.
  "Gentlemen,—I now give you a copy of the statutes of New York at present in force relating to divorces and the property of married women, and a copy or extract of the statutes of the other States relating to the latter subject up to 1854. The subject is difficult and requires delicate handling.
  We know that what is wanted for the protection of married women is to secure their persons, property, and earnings against abuse by improvident or ill-disposed husbands. If a law could be framed for these cases of abuse there would be no need of disturbing the present legal relations of the sexes in other cases. But this would be obviously impracticable. Whatever law is passed must be general, relating to all wives and all husbands, and securing to all wives those
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  rights which only the unhappy need assert. The changes which thus far have been made in this State have proved in their operation as beneficial as any reasonable friend could have expected. Of course there are cavillers, as there are against every change, but no one imagines that an effort to repeal the laws would be successful. This is the best test of the operation of a measure according to the judgment of the people upon whom it operates. An attempt to restore the old laws of marital rights would have as little chance of success here as an attempt to restore the Corn Laws in England.—I am, &c.,
  "DAVID DUDLEY FIELD."
  He concluded by thanking the House for the patience with which he had been heard in the necessarily dry exposition, of the reasons he had placed before them. The subject was undoubtedly capable of being illustrated from many points of view, by eloquence and feeling, but as the making a new law was the question before the House, he had addressed himself solely to their understanding. He would only say in conclusion, that although, by the aid of settlements, solicitors, and the Court of Chancery, the wealthier classes of society did not feel the pressure of the present law, the House must not judge by their own experience in the circles in which they immediately moved, but must inquire carefully amongst their constituents, whether the necessity was not every day increasing for giving to married women legal rights in their own property and acquisitions.
  He would now move for leave to bring in a Bill, to amend the law with respect to the Property of Married Women.
  MR. DRUMMONDsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman had asked him since he had entered the House to second his Motion, and he felt great pleasure in complying with that request. He was convinced that the oppression occasioned in the case of married women by the operation of the existing law was exceedingly unjust and severe. He entertained considerable doubt, however, whether his hon. and learned Friend would be able to accomplish the object which he had in view without taking a prior step and giving greater facility for obtaining divorces à mensâ et thoro. He had hoped that a Bill upon that subject would have come down from the other House in time to afford them an opportunity of dealing with the question before the measure under their notice had been introduced; and he might add that the point was one upon which he felt so strongly that he had intended to bring in a Bill himself with regard to it, and he

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  should have done so had he not learned from experience the utter inutility of an attempt to carry such a Bill through its various stages upon the part of anybody except some great man connected with the Government.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that in rising to state that he would not oppose the Motion which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Devon-port had just made, the Government was by no means desirous of preventing discussion upon, the subject with which his Bill proposed to deal. On the contrary, he should be very glad that hon. Members generally should give to that subject their anxious attention, inasmuch as they must be prepared to take it into consideration when the Divorce Bill, which might confidently be expected to come down from the House of Lords, came under their notice. The proposition of the hon. and learned Member was one of a character very different from the ordinary schemes of law reform. The laws affecting the property of married women, and their status with respect to that property, were intimately bound up with our social institutions, and it was by no means a light matter to attempt to introduce into a system of jurisprudence such alterations as must involve a material change in the social and political institutions of a nation. He thought, therefore, that hon. and learned Gentleman had taken upon himself a very difficult and onerous task, and if his Bill contained no other provisions than those to which he had referred in the course of his speech, he must not anticipate that it would be received with very general favour. Indeed, so far as he (the Attorney General) could gather from the observations of the hon. and learned Gentleman, the operation of his Bill seemed to be confined to the creation of a communio bonorum, to the placing of the women of England in a "strong-minded and independent position," which so few chose for themselves, and which position the hon. and learned Gentleman had described as consisting in the rendering them accountable for everything which they might say or do. Now he (the Attorney General), for one, did not think that was a position which the best and most amiable of the women of England were anxious to occupy. He was at the same time undoubtedly desirous that the law of this country upon the subject of the property of married women should be
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  made consistent with itself, and as an individual Member expressing individual opinions, he would endeavour to point out how far he was predisposed to go in the advocacy of a measure of reform upon that head. The hon. and learned Gentleman had correctly observed that there existed a remarkable difference between the effects of the contract for marriage upon real and personal property. The House was well aware that during the early history of the laws of England personal property had been greatly disregarded. Such, however, had not been the case with real property, and when a marriage took place the law gave to the husband, not unqualified ownership over such property, but a right to receive the rents and profits arising out of it during the period of coverture. He could make during that period no alienation of it which would operate as an effectual sale, without the consent of his wife. How absurd did it appear that, while the profits only of a landed estate of £500 hundred a year went to the husband, yet if the wife were possessed of £20,000 in the funds, the entire and uncontrolled possession of that money was transferred to the husband with the hand of the bride. He should feel by no means indisposed to allow the husband the right to enjoy the dividends only upon that sum, unless, indeed, the wife, subsequent to the marriage, taking advantage of the safeguards which the law at present threw around her in the case of real property, should consent to transfer her personal property herself. He should, he repeated, allow the dividends to go to the husband, as was now the case under the existing law, subject to the condition of maintaining, protecting, and guarding his wife; and if that duty were not duly discharged he should propose that the property should remain intact, and that the life interest of the husband in it should revert to the wife, in case she had been deserted or brutally treated. There was another portion of his subject to which the hon. and learned Member had but slightly alluded, and that was the property which a married woman might have acquired by her labour in any trade or business carried on without the co-operation of her husband. Now, with respect to that description of property, Courts of Equity would hold, and, indeed, were in the habit of recognizing the separate interests of the wife; and he should, therefore, give his consent to the proposition that the exclusive earnings of a wife during coverture

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  should become her separate property. He might also state his opinion in reference to any acquisitions of the wife in the shape of gifts made to her after the coverture. The Common Law was at variance with Equity on this subject, and the variance led to great inconvenience. If a married woman who had made no settlement had a sum of money or other property bequeathed to her after the coverture, although the Common Law gave the whole to the husband absolutely, she had a right to come into a Court of Equity and require a settlement to be made. A certain portion of the principal was then taken away and set apart for her use, with remainder to the children of the marriage. But this could only be done in a Court of Equity, and even this interposition was limited by the amount of the property in question. Such a right ought to be possessed by a married woman without the necessity for applying to a court of justice at all, and it was cruel to throw upon her the obligation to come into so costly a tribunal as a Court of Equity for such a purpose. But the interposition of Equity took place in consequence of the law which gave to the husband absolutely the property of all personalty in possession. If that law were altered the necessity for such interposition of Equity was removed; and he proposed that as to the acquisitions of property subsequent to the marriage, the law should give to the husband a life interest only arising from the property, subject to the same obligation of protecting and maintaining the wife which the Common Law in principle upheld. The mode of enforcing it, indeed, was weak and inefficient, but it would be efficient if the law were accompanied with a provision that the husband should, on deserting or ill-treating his wife, forfeit his interest in the income, which should immediately revert to the wife for her separate maintenance. He only spoke for himself, for he did not know how far those Members of the Government who had considered this subject were prepared to go. He did not know any subject more difficult, or that ought to be approached and handled with more anxiety and care than anything that dealt with the existing established relations between husband and wife.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONhoped that the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth, in drawing this Bill, would very much follow the course recommended by the Attorney General. He saw no reason why a married woman should not en-
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  joy the same protection and security in regard to personal property that was given to real property. There was one defect in the law, however, to which the hon. and learned Gentleman had not alluded. Cases of great hardship sometimes arose where a separation had taken place, and where parties were not living as husband and wife but without a divorce. An ill-conducted husband would frequently in such cases seize the earnings of his wife, and appropriate them to his own use. He believed that the law did not at present protect a woman so situated. If such were the law, a more pressing and important case for legislative interference was made out than in the relations of husband and wife during coverture.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Of course I meant to include such a case as that.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: But the hon. and learned Gentleman did not mention this as one of the cases with which he meant to deal.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, but if my observations applied to the ordinary case of married women, they, of course, a fortiori, applied to such a case as that mentioned by the right hon. Baronet.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONwas glad to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman say so, for there would be no difference in opinion as to the necessity of applying a remedy in such cases. He thanked the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Plymouth for the course he was pursuing, but he would act wisely in following the judicious advice of the Attorney General. Certainly here then was a field for law reform, but the House could not proceed with too much caution in legislating on this subject.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEthought that this matter was not so clear as the right hon. Member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington) assumed it to be. However, the terms in which the Motion was made, and still more the speech of the Attorney General was the best answer to the rather extravagant demands of the large and manly body of "strong-minded women," whose advocate the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth had constituted himself; but who, he fancied, would hardly be satisfied with what was now proposed for their benefit. Hitherto there had been free trade in the pecuniary relations of husband and wife, and to revert to a sys-

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  tem of protection required rather delicate handling. And his (Mr. Hope's) opinion was, that legislation on this subject was not likely to prove practically beneficial. The hon. and learned Member who made the Motion had indeed himself given the best and most logical answer to his own proposal when he alluded to a father not being liable to support his son beyond what the poor law compelled, and added that more was not necessary, as natural affection would supply the rest. If natural affection were sufficient between parent and child, a fortiori, it would be sufficient between husband and wife. It appeared to him that there was as much necessity for, and not more difficulty in, legislation with respect to the relation of parent and child; and if this Bill passed, we might next Session have a Bill to protect "respectable" parents from profligate sons, and, the Session after, one to protect "respectable" sons from curmudgeons of fathers. No doubt the law of husband and wife was in an anomalous state in many respects, but the Attorney General had done wisely in removing the subject from those questions of abstract women's rights which wore sometimes advocated by young ladies in pamphlets, and further developed by Margaret Fuller, afterwards Marchioness Ossoli, and in the pages of Aurora Leigh. The measure had two sides, one object being to protect the rich, and the other the poor. The hardest cases of grievance no doubt were found when drunken and profligate husbands wrenched from their hard-working wives the few pence they had just earned by the sweat of their brow. But how could any legislation meet such cases? If the law declared that these pence should be her own, how could it save her when the brutal husband came to wrest them from her hand? She might go to a magistrate, but what could a magistrate do? He might make an order upon the husband to refund the money, but that would be already spent; and if the magistrate sent the husband to prison, he would, perhaps, only leave the wife to beg in the streets. Such a law, to give effectual protection to the woman, would require a more expensive machinery than he at present saw his way to constitute. Then, if Parliament recognized a separate right in the wife to property and earnings, would it not in some sort encourage a bad husband to say to his wife, "Go and earn your own bread, as the Act of Parliament tells you, and I wash my hands of your
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  support. "With respect to the rich, in matters of marriage settlements and other cases, he thought that the doctrine of caveat emptor was a very good law. He should not oppose the introduction of the Bill. Doubtless there were many anomalies in the law which ought to be corrected, but let them consider the whole conjugal question in its undivided bearings. Particularly as it was under discussion in another place, he thought it hardly right to enter into a branch of it at present. Let them amend the law, but at the same time steadfastly resist the breaking down of the distinguishing characteristics of Englishmen—the love of home, the purity of husband and wife, and the union of one family.
  MR. M. MILNESwas astonished at the language used by the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Hope) than whom, if the public prints were to be believed, no Member of that House was more indebted for the honourable position he now occupied to the influence of the sex whose interests this Bill would protect. The hon. Gentleman, therefore, was not exactly the man whom it became to sneer at the "strong-minded women" whom the opponents of this measure said were at the bottom of this movement. The House ought to address itself to the Amendment of our matrimonial law in a serious, not a jesting spirit. It was only at the eleventh hour that they came to consider this matter, when the accumulated wrongs of an innocent and helpless portion of their fellow-countrywomen forced them to grapple with it. Though the provisions of this Bill were in the main wise and just, its subject would, from its novelty and the general interest it excited, bear a great amount of discussion, and he thought that his hon. Friend who had brought it forward deserved the thanks of Parliament for having broken the ground. Let the hon. Member for Maidstone make his mind easy on one score—that House would do nothing to attack the sanctity of the English home; and even if, by the letter of its written enactments it made the attempt, the domestic institutions of this country lay far too deep in the hearts of the people for such legislation to produce the effect apprehended by the hon. Member. It was the duty of Parliament to interpose for the correction of the patent and admitted evils connected with the relations of husband and wife; and it was a total mistake to call this solely a woman's question. In some of its gravest bearings it

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  was also a man's question. It dealt not only with the case of a wife deserted by her husband, but likewise with that of the husband deserted by a worthless wife, who, after leading a profligate life when away from him, might return and force him to maintain the children to which she had given birth in the interval.
  MR. MALINS, while reserving any more lengthened observations till a future stage of this measure, yet wished it to be understood that he retained the objections he had previously stated to its provisions, so far as they sought to set up a separate interest between husband and wife while living together; but, so far as they related to the interests of husband and wife when voluntarily separated, that was another matter, and he should be prepared to give some part of the measure his support.
  Motion agreed to,
  Leave given.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir ERSKINE PERRY and Mr. MONCKTON MILNES.
  Bill presented, and read 1°.

MINISTERS' MONEY (IRELAND) BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. FAGAN, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of 17th & 18th Vic. c. 11, with a view to the abolition of Ministers' Money in Ireland. As he understood no opposition would be offered by the Government to his present Motion, he thought he should best consult the pleasure of the House by deferring any observations he might have to mate to another occasion.
  MR. STAFFORD, without resisting the introduction of the Bill, called upon the Government to declare their opinions upon it.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I took the opportunity of last Session, when my hon. Friend brought this subject before the House, to state that the Government, after full consideration of the matter, were prepared to concur with his Motion. Some of the details of the Bill may possibly require alterations, but its principle we are ready to support
  MR. DISRAELI: I understand the "principle" of the Bill is the abolition of ministers' money, a principle which has always been opposed by every Government within my recollection. Lord John Russell's Government opposed it; the Aberdeen Ministry opposed it; as did also the noble Lord himself, who even called it
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  a "principle of confiscation." However, this is not a fitting opportunity to enter into the discussion of the principle of this Bill. The best time for doing that is when we are prepared to divide; for when leave is asked to introduce a measure, and the required permission is conceded by the Government, that is not a convenient opportunity for canvassing its merits. But there is one observation on a Bill of this kind which I cannot now refrain from making. The importance of its principle cannot be exaggerated. In fact, if sanctioned, it will strike at the very root of all church property. The Bill, it seems, is approved and will be supported by the Government. Under these circumstances, is it not much better, when a measure involving a principle of such gravity is to be brought in, that it should be introduced by the Government itself? And if Her Majesty's Ministers have deemed it consistent with their duty to permit a private Member to bring forward a Bill on a subject of this magnitude, they are bound in fairness to this House and the country to take care that, its principle having been approved by them as Ministers, this House should have an early opportunity of expressing its opinion upon it. If a measure of this kind be left to a private Member of this House, the chances, as we have been told by the hon. Member for Surrey, are greatly against its ever being brought before the House for a definitive decision. I think, therefore, after the frank acknowledgment of the noble Lord that he approves the principle of the measure of the hon. Member for Cork, and that his Government intends to support it, the noble Lord is bound to make such arrangements that it should be brought speedily to a second reading, in order that the House may have an opportunity of expressing itself upon its policy. I myself shall certainly give to it an earnest opposition.
  SIR GEORGE GREY: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it would be inconvenient to discuss this measure at present, and that it would be better to do so on the second reading. I will therefore not follow the right hon. Gentleman in the observation which he has made in opposition to the Bill. I will only say that we propose to do that which was stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland at the close of last Session—namely, to act in accordance with the recommendation of a Committee of this House which sat in 1847. That Com-

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  mittee reported that the collection of these funds from house to house in the towns in which it is levied is so difficult, that it would be prudent to discontinue it.
  Considering, then, the difficulty which has existed in the collection of the money, and the fact that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were bound to pay it, while they were unable to obtain repayment, the Corporation of Ireland ought to be exonerated from the duty of collection—a duty which they are unable or unwilling to perform, and which they could not be compelled to perform without a long litigation. I will merely add with regard to the introduction of this Bill that it is a measure which has been frequently brought before the House, and it would have been somewhat ungracious to take it out of the hon. Member's hands after he had given notice of it. With respect to the delay which it is said is likely to occur through the measure being left to a private Member, I can only say that, looking at the character of the Government business which is, or which shortly will be, before the House, and the time which may be occupied with the consideration of the Estimates, I believe the House will be called upon much sooner to pronounce an opinion upon this Bill by its being fixed for a Wednesday—a day which is open for the progress of Bills brought in by private Members—than if it were postponed to a Government day.
  MR. NAPIER: I think that Wednesday is the most inconvenient day that could have been fixed upon for the discussion of a measure of so much importance. I do not know whether the Secretary for Ireland made at the end of last Session the statement which is reported to have been made by him; but I believe that the accuracy of that reported statement has been admitted by the right hon. Gentleman himself. I am so informed from a communication which I have had with the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, who say they have been told that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to admit in his place in the House of Commons the accuracy of that reported statement. At all events, when the discussion comes on, I shall be prepared to show that that statement is inaccurate in all its parts, as reported. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department upon two occasions, and while he held under Lord John Russell the office which he now holds, opposed the abolition of Ministers' Money. The Committee of 1848 did not report in
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  favour of its abolition. It reported that a substitute should be provided when the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should have so increased as to produce a margin applicable for the liquidation of this demand. The whole question is of deep importance. It involves a deep principle. It affects the Church of Ireland, and, consequently, the United Church of England and Ireland; but I shall reserve my observations till the second reading, on which occasion I think I shall be able to show a sufficient case for its entire rejection.
  MR. HORSMAN: What I said was this—that the report of the statement which I made was correct in all its parts, but that if any one impugned the accuracy of what I said, and could show me in what respect I was inaccurate, I should be happy to receive his information, and to acknowledge my error in my place in Parliament.
  MR. NAPIER: One of the inaccuracies of the right hon. Gentleman is this—that he stated the margin of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners' funds to be £22,000 more than it really is.
  MR. HENLEYhaving briefly urged upon Lord Palmerston the great inconvenience of a Bill involving such important principles being discussed on a Wednesday,
  Leave given.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. FAGAN and Mr. BEAMISH.
  Bill presented, and read 1°.

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (SCOTLAND) BILL—LEAVE.
THE LORD ADVOCATE THE LORD ADVOCATE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law for the registration of persons entitled to vote in the election of Members to serve in Parliament for Counties in Scotland.
MR. BLACKBURNhad hoped that as Her Majesty's Government had promised to introduce a Parliamentary Reform Bill next Session, and had asserted that there was an understanding that all measures relating to the representation of the people should be deferred till that period, the Lord Advocate would not have asked the House to consider this Bill, which was considered by the last Parliament and was found to be in many respects very objectionable.
MR. G. DUNDASshould feel it to be his duty to take the same course this as

285
he did last year with regard to this Bill. He greatly regretted that the Lord Advocate should have attempted at so late a period, and so long after those meetings which were held in Scotland for the discussion of measures of public importance, to urge on his measure, which had already caused so much dissatisfaction and expense in those Scotch burghs to which its principle had been applied. Scotland was already over-taxed, and this Bill would add unnecessarily to her burdens. He advised the Lord Advocate to withdraw his Motion until the noble Lord at the head of the Government introduced what the hon. Member for Surrey called the "hodge-podge" of next Session.
MR. KINNAIRDrejoiced that the Lord Advocate intended to persevere with his Bill of last Session, because he believed that wherever its principle had been put into operation in the burghs of Scotland it had worked admirably.
MR. CRAUFURDbore testimony to the satisfactory operation of the principle of the measure in the Scotch burghs, and said, he believed that the extension of the principle to Scotch counties would be a great boon. It ought to be recollected at this time, when all were anxious to see the franchise extended, that, before it was lowered, care should be taken to enable all those who were already entitled to the franchise to exercise it. The expense at present connected with placing a Scotch county voter on the registry was so great that many men were deterred from applying for the enrolment of their names on the registry. He hoped, therefore, that the Lord Advocate would press forward this measure.
THE LORD ADVOCATE, having promised to give on the occasion of the second reading a full explanation of the measure, and to defend it against the observations of Mr. Blackburn and Mr. Dundas,
Leave given.
Bill ordered to be brought in by The LORD ADVOCATE, Sir GEORGE GREY, and Viscount DUNCAN.

MEDICAL PROFESSION (No. 2) BILL.

  LEAVE FIRST HEADING.
  LORD ELCHO LORD ELCHO moved for leave to introduce a Bill to alter and amend the laws regulating the Medical Profession. After what had passed yesterday he would make no remarks on the details of the measure. He wished the House to understand, how-
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  ever, that the Bill was not his own, but was one which had been referred to a Select Committee in 1856, had been amended by that Committee, and by them reported almost unanimously to the House. He asked for leave to bring it in solely that the House might judge between it and the Bill of the hon. and learned Member for Newcastle (Mr. Headlam).
  Leave given.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Lord ELOHO, Mr. CRAUFURD, and Mr. BRADY.
  Bill presented, and read 1°.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock.