Commons Sitting of 24 February 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Carlisle Canonries; Registration of Long Leases (Scotland); Commissioners of Supply (Scotland) Act (1856) Amendment.

CIVIL SERVICE APPOINTMENTS IN INDIA.—QUESTION.
MR. DEASYsaid, he would beg to ask the right hon. the President of the Board of Control whether any reduction had taken place or was contemplated in the number of appointments in the Civil Service in India open to public competition.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, there had
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been no reduction in the number of appointments, nor was any contemplated; and, indeed, there could not be, as the number was fixed by Act of Parliament which were to be open to competition. With regard to the cause of there having been a decrease in the number of vacancies, it resulted from accidental circumstances, such as there having been fewer deaths occurring in the service.

MASTERS AND WORKMEN.
MR. PELLATTsaid, he would beg to ask the hon. and learned Attorney General whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to bring in a Bill to consolidate the Statute Laws relating to Masters and Servants, and to Masters and Workmen?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL,in reply, said, the Statutes relating to masters and workmen had been consolidated by the Statute Law Commissioners, and a Bill with that object was under consideration, and he believed would be introduced into Parliament in the course of the present Session; but he was not aware that the Government had any other measures on the subject in contemplation.

FUSION OF LAW AND EQUITY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he wished to inquire of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General whether Her Majesty's Ministers would object to institute an inquiry (by a Committee of that House or otherwise) into the means by which the distinction between suits at Law and in Equity, which had been removed from the jurisprudence of the United States, might be abolished?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, he should be exceedingly glad to promote any inquiry which would be likely to terminate in a result so desirable as the abolition of the distinction which now existed between the principle on which suits at Law and Equity were founded—for that he believed would be the foundation stone of any effectual reform in our system of jurisprudence. But it did not appear to the Government that it was a subject which should be considered by a Committee of that House. The hon. and learned Gentleman's question included the words "or otherwise," and he could say that when the Department of Public Justice, which was

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  under the consideration of the Government should come into operation, the subject would be one which it would have to consider.

  HEALTH OF TOWNS—QUESTION.
  MR. PALKsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Board of Health, when he would bring in a Health of Towns Bill; and whether the Bill would carry out the recommendations of the Committee on the Board of Health?
  MR. W. COWPERsaid, he had already given notice of his intention to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Public Healths Act, and he hoped to do so early in March, if he could. The Bill would be the same as that which had been agreed to by the Select Committee, only containing certain alterations which had been suggested, and which he thought the Select Committee would have been disposed to adopt.

CHIEF CONSTABLES IN COUNTIES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. PALKsaid, he would now beg to ask the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary a question with regard to the appointment of chief constables in counties. He wished to know whether if a gentleman who was appointed to that office was in the commission of the peace, that was considered to invalidate the appointment?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that the fact of a gentleman being in the commission of the peace for a county did not absolutely invalidate his appointment as chief constable. The question arose when the right hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) was Home Secretary, and it was determined that the holding of the office of chief constable was incompatible with the remaining in the commission of the peace. A case had lately arisen in Kent, in which he (Sir G. Grey) had acted in the same way, and the appointment was not confirmed until the gentleman's name had been removed from the commission of the peace.

  THE IRISH MILITIA.—THE SARDINIAN MEDALS.—QUESTION.
  MR. ESMONDEsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to call out for training the Irish militia, and if so at what period?
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  He would also beg to ask when the issue of the Sardinian Medals and the Order of the Medjedjie might be expected?
  MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, that a portion of the Irish militia would be called out for training and exercise in the course of the present year, but he could not say at what time. With regard to the decorations spoken of by the hon. Member, the list of those entitled to them was being prepared, but was not yet complete.

  GENERAL BEATSON—QUESTION.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he wished to ask the hon. Under Secretary of War whether a Court of Inquiry ordered to assemble to investigate charges affecting General Beatson and other officers of rank was to be secret?
  MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, that the Court of Inquiry into the charges brought by General Beatson against General Shirley would be, as was usual with Courts of that nature, a close Court, that is, it would not be open to the public, but the parties to the inquiry and their witnesses would be allowed to be present. It should be remembered that it was a preliminary inquiry, and was analogous to the proceedings of a grand jury.

INDUSTRIAL MUSEUM, EDINBURGH.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JAMES FURGUSSONsaid, he would beg to inquire whether there would be any objection to lay upon the table a Copy of the Report of the Government Officer sent lately to Edinburgh to report upon the proposed site of the Industrial Museum?
  MR. COWPERsaid, there was no such Report as the hon. Gentleman supposed. An officer connected with the department of science and art had been lately sent to Edinburgh to inquire into the subject of the erection of a building which was intended for an Industrial Museum, on a site which had been purchased for that purpose, but it was no part of his duty to inquire into the question of the selection of the site.

  JOINT STOCK BANKS—QUESTION.
  MR. WILKINSONsaid, he would beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was the intention of the Government to introduce any measure during the present Session, either by repealing the

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  exemption clause in the Joint-stock Act of last year, or otherwise, which should have the effect of preventing a recurrence of the state of litigation which had taken place in the cases of the Tipperary and Royal British Banks?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the Government had prepared a measure on the subject of Joint-stock Banks, which would be introduced by the Vice President of the Board of Trade as soon as the business before the House would permit.

REPRESENTATIVE SYSTEM.

  COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  SIR JOSHUA WALMSLEY,on rising to move for "a Select Committee to consider and report upon the most practical means for lessening the existing inequalities in our Representative System, and for extending to the unenfranchised that share of political power to which they may be justly entitled," said—The question I desire to raise has no party objects, but is simply dictated by an earnest desire to ameliorate the political condition of a very numerous body of men whose industry, forbearance, and loyalty entitle them to the utmost consideration at our hands. I am free to admit that the proposition would have been much more appropriately in the hands of the Government than in those of an independent Member, and this is rendered more especially so from the fact that most, if not all, the Members of the present Government have already assented to an extensive measure of Parliamentary reform. Session after Session has, however, passed without any sign of its re-introduction, and as the subject is of too much importance to be allowed to remain in abeyance, I would ask that indulgence which the House usually bestows on those most in need of it, whilst I endeavour, as briefly as possible, to show the necessity for the objects of the present Motion. Were the question of Parliamentary reform to be decided on its own merits, on the abstract principles of right only, there would be less difficulty in framing a measure in which most might concur; this is, however, not so. The claims of existing interests, and the demands in favour of prescriptive rights, supported by powerful influence, have so surrounded the subject with difficulties as to render it almost impracticable to carry out any comprehensive measure of Parliamentary reform
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  which does not partake more or less of; expediency. Under such circumstances, and at the instance of many of those most earnest for an extension of the franchise, instead of seeking a specific measure upon I which there might be a great diversity of opinion, I would ask the House to I appoint a Select Committee to consider and report upon the most practical means for lessening the inequalities in our electoral system, and for extending to the unenfranchised that share of political power to which they may be justly entitled. And whatever difference of opinion may exist as to the policy or impolicy of particular measures, there is none as to the necessity for some amendment in our electoral system. All parties, and every combination of party, whether here or elsewhere, acknowledge its imperfect working and desire to see it improved, and if this be really so, the question would seem to be narrowed into one of degree and to become rather a matter of detail than one of principle. Nor is it a question which can be wisely or safely delayed, for it must be evident to all who have given attention to the subject, that legislation is rapidly approaching a dead lock, and becoming impracticable; that we must either progress or retrograde, either yield more power into the hands of the present governing classes, or extend to the people generally that share of political power to which their numbers and intelligence entitle them. At no period has popular intelligence made more rapid progress than during the last few years. Every portion of our social system has advanced in a high degree. The arts, science, commerce, manufactures, have each made rapid progress, but the political position of the industrial population remains unimproved, whilst it is well known that a large portion of the unenfranchised are as well fitted for its independent exercise as the majority of those who now enjoy the right. Then, with respect to numbers, our population and other returns show that out of 28,000,000 of souls in the United Kingdom, 5,500,000 of adult males, and upwards of 4,000,000 of inhabited houses, there are only about 1,000,000 of electors, and of these large numbers are prevented by bribery, intimidation, and other influences from exercising their votes in accordance with their convictions. Some assert that the people are indifferent to the possession of the franchise. Were this so, it would be a great national calamity; but I believe the asser-

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  tion to be an error founded on a misconception of their real sentiments. They may have evinced indifference for measures not calculated to meet their requirements, but no class has made greater sacrifices to obtain their rights; and it is well known that they are sensitively alive to the political degradation under which they labour, and would hail with enthusiasm any really practical measure calculated to bring the mass of our artisans and mechanics within the electoral pale. No doubt there are those who would be content with a moderate instalment of that which is due, in the partial lowering of the qualification, the redistribution of members, and the removal of the rate-paying clauses, provided they could include the protection of the ballot. I apprehend, however, that any measure of enfranchisement falling short of household suffrage would fail to meet the necessities of the case or the requirements of the unenfranchised. Even household suffrage itself would exclude many who ought to have a vote, but it would enfranchise the great body of the adult males, increase the number of voters at least threefold, and be so close an approximation to the abstract principle of right as to remove much of that spirit of antagonism which exists between class and class in this country; and we should not deny that to our own citizens which we have freely conceded to our colonial fellow-subjects. At present a deep-seated conviction prevails that the restricted character of the franchise, the unequal distribution of Members, the existence of numerous nomination boroughs, and the want of protection to the voter, are the sources of many of our social and political evils, and have been the means of placing the balance of political power at the will of the few rather than under the control of the many. No one will, at least, question the fact that there is an undue proportion of the aristocratic element, not only in the Government, but in the House itself. We find twelve out of fifteen Members of the Cabinet either Peers in their own right or the near connections of Peers; and not less than 230 seats in this House are occupied by the nominees, sons, or near relatives of Peers, many of them representing close boroughs or large territorial interests. In fact, the electoral system might have been contrived to place a monopoly of political power in the hands of a privileged few. It embodies no fixed principle; area, population, and property are alike disre-
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  garded. Small and unimportant boroughs are placed upon a par with the most populous and influential. A borough with 2,800 and one with 500,000 souls have the same number of representatives. 77 boroughs have 124 Members—their aggregate population is less than that contained in one single borough. One moiety of the Members of this House are said to be returned by 180,000 electors and to represent £7,000,000 of assessed property, whilst the other half represent 800,000 electors and £77,000,000 of assessed property. In the English counties, including the unrepresented towns, there are 10,000,000 of souls, £42,000,000 of assessment, and 144 representatives; but in the boroughs, exclusive of the unrepresented towns, there are 8,000,000 of population, £22,000,000 of assessment, and 323 representatives. If we, however, compare the counties with each other, the anomalies and inequalities are still greater. One county, with a population of 2,000,000, and an assessment of £8,000,000, has 14 Members; whilst a contiguous one, with 163,000 population and £700,000 assessment, has 11 Members. Examine the representation of the counties as a whole. We shall find that 24 of them have 86 Members more than their relative proportion, tested by population, property, houses, or number of electors; whilst 10 have 90 Members less than such relative proportion. Another grievance, and not a light one, arises out of the fact that not less than 29 towns and districts, containing from 10,000 to 600,000 souls each, have no representatives. I have numerous tables of a similar character, but will not trespass on the time of the House with them at present. One fact is of itself sufficient: that out of 28,000,000 of souls we have only 1,000,000 of electors. What valid objection can be offered to this Motion I am at a loss to conceive, save the usual stereotyped one—that it is an inconvenient season: and I would venture to urge that the patience, moderation, and loyalty of those who would be benefited, are grounds that should not be disregarded in the consideration of the question. It may seem unnecessary to cite authorities in favour of the rights of those who are taxed to a voice in the selection of their representatives; but there are those who regard this right in the light of a privilege—and in reply to such I would ask leave to read three or four sentences from the speeches

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  and writings of those distinguished men who have long been regarded as authorties on this most important subject. Locke writes thus:—
  "The supreme power cannot take from any man any part of his property without his own consent. They must not raise taxes on the people without the consent of the people. It is the interest as well as the intention to have a fair am equal representation; whoever brings it nearest to this is an undoubted friend to an established government, and cannot miss the consent and approbation of the community."
  Sir William Jones, speaking of the feudal system, said:—
  "Narrow and base as it was, and confined to landed property, it admitted the lowest freeholder to that inestimable right without which it was a banter to call a man free. The right of voting in the choice of deputies to assist in making laws which may affect not only his property but his life, and, what is dearer, his liberty, and which are not laws, but tyrannous ordinances if imposed without his suffrage in person or by deputy."
  Lord Chatham said:—
  "To be taxed without being represented is contrary to the maxims of law and the first principles of the constitution."
  Edmund Burke said:—
  "The virtue, spirit, and essence of a House of Commons consists in its being the express image of the nation. It was not intended to be a control on the people, but as a control for the people."
  Charles James Fox asserts that
  "To extend the right of voting to householders is the best and most advisable plan of reform. It is the most perfect recurrence to first principles. I do not refer to the first principles of representation, but to the first known and recorded principles of our constitution. That Government is alone strong which has the hearts of the people; and will any man contend that we should not be more likely to add strength to the state if we were to extend the basis of popular representation? Would not a House of Commons freely elected, and which was in truth the representation of the people, be most likely to ensure the support of that people?"
  The Duke of Richmond says:—
  "Every man not labouring under natural or moral disability had an inherent right of suffrage, paramount to all considerations of civil or political expediency."
  Lord John Russell has observed that—
  "The ancient constitution of our country declares that no man shall be taxed for the support of the state who has not, by himself or his representatives, consented to the imposition of those taxes."
  I trust these authorities not only show the necessity for the course proposed, but that it is a wise, safe, and consti-
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  tutional one. It will be remembered by many now present that, so soon after the passing of the Reform Bill as the year 1839, that Act was found to work so unsatisfactorily that the late Mr. Hume endeavoured to amend it by the introduction of a Bill for household suffrage, thus early proving the truth of the words of the late Earl Grey, who, in speaking of the Reform Bill, said the Whigs would in a few years become unpopular for having introduced so aristocratic a measure. In the years 1848–9, and again in 1850, Mr. Hume renewed his efforts, on each occasion seeking such an extension of the franchise as, in his own words, was calculated to unite the estates of the realm, to infuse new vigour into the constitution, and to make the House of Commons that which it was intended to be—the full, vigorous, and effective representation of the people of the United Kingdom. Subsequently, the noble Lord the Member for the City introduced a less comprehensive franchise, in which he proposed to lower the qualification in boroughs to a £6 assessment, and in many respects the Bill of the noble Lord was a great advance on previous legislation. His propositions, to abolish numerous nomination boroughs and to remove the rate paying clauses of the Reform Act, were just and comprehensive, and the country is deeply indebted to the noble Lord for his consistent efforts to ameliorate the political condition of his fellow-men. But I am constrained to say that his proposed measure of enfranchisement was meagre in the extreme, and not calculated to produce the support necessary for carrying the other portions of his measure. Any qualification based on assessment must almost necessarily be unsatisfactory. It varies in almost every parish, and not unfrequently whole streets of voters are disfranchised by a composition between the landlord and the parish authorities. If the noble Lord supposed that a £6 assessment in boroughs would embrace the great body of our artisans and mechanics, it was an error which I trust he will see fit to correct. If, on the contrary, he was aware of the restrictive character of the qualification he proposed, "it was keeping the word of promise to the ear, hut breaking it to the hope." I do not know that I can better illustrate such a qualification than by showing what would have been its effect in the borough I have the honour to represent. In the borough of Leicester

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  there are about 4,000 voters; 2,500 household, and 1,500 freemen. A £6 assessment would only have added 610 house-hold votes out of a population of 70,000 souls and 14,000 houses, and the Bill of the noble Lord, by ultimately removing the freemen, would have reduced the present constituency by 900. Whereas a £6 bonâ fide payment of rent would have added 4,000 householders to the register—more than doubling the constituency. I have ventured to dwell on this point that the House and the country may be fully aware of the difference between assessment and bonâ fide rent. I have been blamed by some parties for bringing forward this question. They say that it is not in season—that it is out of season. Now, I want to know when it will be in season? Will it ever be in season? Certain speeches which I heard the other day induce me to think that there does not exist any desire to bring forward a new Reform Bill. Now I boldly assert that it is unjust to the people of this country to keep 4,500,000 of them unfranchised, when they are paying rates and taxes in an equal or greater proportion than many of those who have the right of voting. I appeal to the justice, the good sense, and the honesty of the Members of this House to give me their support on this occasion. I ask them to unite in some plan of reform, or at least to consider whether they cannot in some way or other extend the franchise to those who are fully entitled to its exercise. I am fully persuaded that the granting of a Committee would be considered a great boon by the country, and that the result would be such an adjustment of the question as would give satisfaction to all parties and to every portion of the community. I do not give up one jot or tittle of my opinions. But I know that every man who wishes to carry any question, who wishes to make any progress, must yield more or less to the opinions of others, and it is with that view that I ask the House to appoint a Committee to consider this important subject.
  MR. HADFIELD,in seconding the Motion, said the hon. Member for Leicester deserved the thanks of the country for his perseverance in endeavouring to remove the evils of which the people complained, The hon. Member had been driven to move for a Committee. No doubt a Bill would have been better if the Government would have supported it—so that they might have had the whole matter discussed and placed
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  before the House and the country. The time had arrived when a measure of reform should be passed, and it was to be hoped that ere long the pressure from without would force the Government to bring in a Bill worthy of general acceptance. Last week an attempt was made to give the franchise to £10 county householders; but, under very peculiar circumstances, the Motion was rejected. His hon. Friend the Member for Bristol (Mr. H. Berkeley) asked the House once a year to give voters the ballot, but that also was refused, and a Motion for manhood suffrage would not be tolerated. His hon. Friend the Member for Leicester now asked for a Committee for the purpose of ascertaining how this great injury to the people could be removed, and he (Mr. Hadfield) thought the Government ought to undertake to deal with the question, and bring in a Bill which should be worthy of acceptation by the House. The present limited franchise could not be supported upon any ground of reason or justice. There were only about 420,000 Borough Electors and about 750,000 County Electors; from these, however, at least 25 per cent, would have to be deducted for double and treble entries. He himself had votes in four counties and the names were entered as often as there were votes registered, so that probably there were not more than 900,000 electors out of a population of 28,000,000. While the landed interest, the army, the navy, and the law were amply represented, the working men, amounting to 5,000,000 or 6,000,000, had not a single representative of their interests. What was the result? While the represented classes were relieving themselves of £9,000,000 in the shape of the income tax, they were by the decision of last night imposing for the next three years £4,964,000 upon the country in additional taxes on tea and sugar, and this burden would be mainly thrown upon the non-electors. The House took advantage of their absence, and imposed taxes to which they did not assent. In the borough of Sheffield there were 27,658 householders, while the total number who polled at the last election, though there were four candidates, was only 4,034. This was a question much considered by the people, and their anxiety to obtain the franchise ought to be encouraged in every way. Within the last twenty-five years they had improved in intelligence and independence, and they might now be considered emphatically as the strength of the country; and

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  the House of Commons would do its duty better if it were mounted on the broad shoulders of a widely extended constituency, and its acts would command a more general respect. It had been said that the question was out of season. In the estimation of some people there never was a convenient season for the discussion of such matters. But in his opinion a more fitting time for the consideration of a rational measure of reform could not be found; and he earnestly implored the noble Lord at the head of the Government—now at the zenith of his fame—to introduce a great measure of reform which would give the people a proper station in Parliament and create for himself a name which would never be forgotten.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed, to consider and report upon the most practical means for lessening the existing inequalities in our Representative System, and for extending to the unenfranchised that share of political power to which they may be justly entitled."
  SIR GEORGE STRICKLANDsaid, the House did not contain an older or more consistent reformer than himself, and therefore he felt anxious to state the reasons why he could not support the Motion of the hon. Member for Leicester. The Motion did not indicate any specific plan for remedying the anomalies and inequalities which the hon. Member had so ably pointed out in his speech. Now he (Sir J. Strickland) considered it the duty of every Member who moved for a Committee, to state precisely and distinctly the object which he might have in view; for the appointment of a general and indefinite Committee like that now proposed only led to a waste of time; and therefore he thought that if the hon. Member should succeed in carrying his Motion, instead of promoting reform and a rational extension of the suffrage, he would delay the carrying of any such measure. He (Sir G. Strickland) was a reformer when it was odious and almost dangerous to utter his sentiments. He was an earnest supporter of the first Reform Bill, and an advocate for the destruction of rotten boroughs and the extension of the franchise. Down to the present time he had acted on the same principle. He had supported the Motion for the extension of the franchise to £10 householders in counties, and the various Motions which had been brought forward for the institution of the Ballot. But he could not sup-
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  port the Motion then before the House. This might be an exception to the rule, but generally speaking he considered fishing Committees to be Committees for finding brains for the persons who moved for them—and thought it would have been much better if some specific measure had been introduced by the hon. Member. He had no fear of a wide extension of the suffrage to the people, because he believed them on the whole to be the best educated, the most intelligent, the most enlightened, people in the world, and better deserving of freedom than the people of any other nation. However widely freedom and liberty might be extended to them they would make good use of it, and therefore he was of opinion that no person could be wrong in bringing forward a clear, specific, and intelligible Motion for a gradual and wide extension of the suffrage. But that object he was quite convinced could not be accomplished by the Motion then before the House.
  MR. STAFFORDsaid, the debate had been chiefly remarkable for the discrepancies between the three hon. Gentlemen who had addressed the House in favour of the Motion. The first, the hon. Gentleman who had moved it, had criticised very freely the specific proposal of the Bill of the noble Lord the Member for the City of London; the second regretted that the constituency, limited as it was, only very partially availed itself of the privilege of voting; while the third, a veteran and thick-and-thin reformer, opposed the Motion altogether on the ground of its vagueness, coupled with the remark that fishing committees were only schemes for finding brains for their movers. It was edifying also to witness the immense excitement and enthusiastic appearance of the benches opposite whilst being addressed by chosen instruments—by the most practical and most influential and weighty Members—in favour of a scheme which was to unite and conciliate all opinions, and enable reformers to act as an united party. The House had just witnessed a specimen of the manner in which that party was prepared to act; and it was very clear that this attack upon the institutions of the country was predestined to be a failure. The hon. Member for Leicester had been blamed for not bringing forward a specific plan; but he (Mr. Stafford) thought the hon. Gentleman had done quite right in moving for a Committee, because if the House should agree

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  to a Committee there could not be a better opportunity than the present for appointing it, and the hon. Member would be lucky if he should have the opportunity of naming some hon. Gentlemen whose recent conduct entitled them to be nominated Members of the Committee, or even to form the whole of it. Of course the Members who served on it ought to be men of impartial minds, who would keep their judgment in equilibrium, without feeling a bias either one way or the other; and he could point out to the hon. Member for Leicester several hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who would answer that description, and who would therefore make capital Members of his Committee—if he got it. When the House decided the other evening on the specific plan of reform presented to them by the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Locke King), fifteen Gentlemen who were Members of the Government were absent from the division. These hon. Members had their minds in a nicely balanced state; their minds were precisely and accurately balanced, between their past professions and their present places. Of course, if the Committee were appointed it would have power to send for persons, papers, and records; and he presumed that the records for which the Members sent would be their own speeches, the papers would be their election addresses, and the persons would be the constituents who had been simple enough to believe their professions. But hon. Members opposite, in bringing forward this plan, must consider the ultimate result. In the case of the Motion of the hon. Member for Surrey, which was for the extension of the franchise, the instantaneous result was, that several large towns were, on that occasion, placed in Schedule B, and had only one representative left to vote on a great constitutional question. He found, for instance, that the constituencies of Leeds and Forfarshire, of Lewes and Aylesbury, of Newport and St. Ives, of Gloucester, of Middlesex, of Marylebone, of Wolverhampton, and of Liskeard, and of the borough of Ennis, were all placed in Schedule B on that occasion. This style of proceeding should cause hon. Members opposite to pause before they brought forward Motions of this description. He would ask the hon. Member for Leicester whether it was his intention to divide upon his Motion. [Sir J. WALMSLEY, Certainly.] Then he (Mr. Stafford) would
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  suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he would place some of his Friends in a very awkward position, and might probably disfranchise some of the constituencies which they now represented. The hon. Member for Leicester was a comparatively young reformer, and veteran reformers knew much better how to deal with matters of this kind, for they were acquainted with circumstances which, doubtless, were not within the knowledge of the hon. and innocent Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield). When the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Locke King) recently proposed an extension of the franchise, the noble Member for Portsmouth (Viscount Monck) had been seen nimbly running about the House, exercising his plastic powers and winning manners in obtaining support for Her Majesty's Government in opposition to the Motion; but on that occasion several Members of the Administration were absent. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control was listening to a debate on Indian affairs in the other House of Parliament. Where was the Attorney General for England, who had recently made such great promises to his constituents, on that occasion? He was absent; and the Attorney General for Ireland, on the principle of justice for Ireland, was absent also. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was engaged in very important business out of the House; and Marylebone, Wolverhampton, and Middlesex, were represented on the division by only one Member each. He should like to know upon what occasions, and to what extent, might Members of the Cabinet and of the Government refuse their support to the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston), who seemed, on the Motion of the hon. Member for East Surrey, to have had only a majority of one, comparing the Members of his Cabinet who voted with those who stayed away? It would be well, when subjects like this were discussed, if allusion were made more frequently, not to the conduct of the constituents, but to the conduct of the representatives. If reformers thus neglected or forgot their pledges—if the reins of Government were so lightly held as to permit so large a discretion to Members of the Government upon questions of such importance as a change in the franchise—might it not be expected that in a few weeks the Government would be divided against itself, and that the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston)

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  would be left to go into the lobby leaning on the arm of his recent eulogist, the hon. Member for Essex (Sir J. Tyrell)? It would be satisfactory to learn from some of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they expected to carry on the broad shoulders of the people their measures of reform, and how long they would be content to support a Government which was scarcely able to resist successfully, without the aid of its opponents, such propositions as that now before the House?
  MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, it was not his province to account for the absence of those Members of the Government (to whom the hon. Member for Northamptonshire had referred) from the division the other evening, but he must say, he thought they had fully done their duty last night by assisting to place hon. Gentlemen opposite in a minority. He rose, however, for the purpose of saying, that it was not in his power to support the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Leicester. Nothing would afford him greater pleasure than to vote with that hon. Gentleman, if he did not think that he would thereby rather damage than advance the cause of reform. He (Mr. Duncombe) regretted most deeply the opposition which was offered the other evening by his noble Friend at the head of the Government to the Motion of the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Locke King). He regarded that opposition as ill-timed, ill-advised, and most ungracious towards those who gave the noble Lord's Administration a generous and independent support; but if the noble Lord were to adopt the same course to-night in resisting the Motion of the hon. Member for Leicester, he (Mr. Duncombe) would think he was equally right as he was wrong on the former occasion. Although he had heard the speech of the hon. Member for Leicester, he could not, for the life of him, understand what that hon. Gentleman expected from a Committee. Supposing the House to assent to the Motion, he presumed the Committee would be composed of hon. Gentlemen from both sides of the House. The hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) would probably be placed on the Committee, and, from what he had said to-night, would, no doubt, afford them material assistance. The first question that would arise would, probably, be whether the Committee was appointed to inquire into the inequalities of the representative system in England and Wales, Scotland, or Ireland—for
  1262
  those countries were governed by three Reform Acts, which established different franchises. His hon. Friend (Sir J. Walmsley) would probably say, "Well, I never thought of that." Some Member of the Committee might ask, "Is reform necessary at all?" because his hon. Friend (Sir J. Walmsley) proposed, by his Motion, to extend "to the unenfranchised that share of political power to which they may be justly entitled." Why, what has become of the great principle of Reformers, that representation should be concurrent with taxation? Why not say the parties who "are" entitled, not who "may be" entitled? He (Mr. Duncombe) did not like such mawkish language. What were the practical means of carrying out the scheme of the hon. Member for Leicester? What were the practical means of lessening the existing inequalities in our representative system! The hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Locke King) proposed the other night a practical means of getting rid of that great blot of the Reform Bill the Chandos clause—namely, by moving for leave to introduce a Bill for equalizing the franchise in the boroughs and counties. Some Reformers, and among others the late Mr. Hume, made a great mistake in voting for that clause. That hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) supported it because he believed the admission to the franchise of £50 tenants-at-will would ultimately facilitate the adoption of the ballot. The conduct of Mr. Hume showed, however, the danger of voting for evil that good may come, for now they could not get rid of the Chandos clause, and they were about as far from obtaining the ballot as ever. The ballot had been made an open question. But what was an open question, after all? It was a contrivance for the purpose of deluding constituents without advancing the cause. The result was, that although the hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. H. Berkeley) had carried his Motion in favour of the ballot by frequent majorities, they were not a whit nearer the ballot than when the Reform Bill passed. He said, that a great principle was involved in this question of the representation, and he was not prepared to insult, in their just demands, the 4,500,000 persons of the working classes, by referring their claims to a Committee upstairs, as if it was a Railway Bill, or a Cemetery Bill, or a Gas Bill. No—the question was too large not to be discussed in the light of day, and the more it was so discussed the greater would

  1263
  appear to be the title of the people to representation and enfranchisement.
  MR. WARREN: Only one word. Only think of referring the British Constitution to a Select Committee. I am so tickled with the idea that I have nothing else to say.
  MR. W. J. FOXsaid, there were considerable differences of opinion on this question, and he thought that a Select Committee was the readiest and fittest mode of bringing these differences to a settlement; and he believed they might approximate to such an agreement as might be acted on. The mode in which his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury had made his objection had greatly disappointed him—his plan would only serve to bring into collision opinions which were known to be hostile; but were they brought together in the quiet discussion of a Select Committee, they might possibly approximate, as they had actually done in the great Education Question, and devise some practical course of action. It could scarcely be denied that our representative system was characterized by egregious inequalities. Representative institutions, from their very nature, required frequent alteration and development, and a representative Government must necessarily extend and adjust the franchise, to meet the growing requirements of the people. Some places, which were opulent and populous, fell into poverty and decay, and others, from small beginnings, became great and influential. As education spread, too, a greater number of persons could be admitted with safety within the pale of the constitution. Unless changes of this kind were made, what happened? Imperfect representation, which was the parent of agitation. In a representative Government the people must either be ruled by an adjustment from time to time of the representative system, or they must be ruled in the very worst way, by successive yieldings to external agitation. Many of the great questions of modern times had been carried by agitation; for example, the abolition of the slave trade, the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, Roman Catholic Emancipation, the Reform Act of 1832; and, lastly, the repeal of the Corn Laws, and the establishment of free trade. But these agitations involved a great expenditure of time and money; and the result of pursuing such a course was, that the people lost confidence in those in whom it was desirable they should have the greatest con-
  1264
  fidence.Occasion was given for the rise of demagogues; and the people were initiated in the arts and tricks of faction. It had been objected, that with regard to reform of the representation, the people were in a state of apathy. Now, was this certainly the case? He believed that, although a desire for representative reform had not been demonstrated by monster meetings, there was a strong, deep, pervading feeling in favour of the desirableness and necessity for a change. He should support the Motion.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that one objection which is often made to those who proposed a Committee, certainly could be made to the proposal of his hon. Friend. It was often objected to those who propose a Committee, that when they get their wish they were unable to bring the Committee to any concurrent opinion on the subject which they desire to submit to it; but if they were to judge from the success of his hon. Friend in bringing the House to an almost unanimous opinion on the Motion he had made, that objection certainly could not be raised on the present occasion, for he had succeeded in ranging in wonderful unanimity of opinion on the same side those who were for a comprehensive reform, those who were for gradual reform, or what was called bit-by-bit and step-by-step reform, and those who were opposed to reform in the abstract. He, therefore, submitted to his hon. Friend that he should be content with that achievement, and not endeavour to produce a similar concurrence of opinion among the Members of any Committee that might be appointed in pursuance of his Motion. He was content to rest upon the argument, which he thought unanswerable, that had been urged against the proposal of this Committee—that the matter was of too great importance, and one of too wide a range, and affecting too many material interests to be thrown loose upon the chance decision of a Committee. It was one which those who brought it under the consideration of Parliament were bound to embody in the shape of some distinct proposal for which they are responsible. Therefore, without stating the particular objections which he felt to many of the abstract propositions of his hon. Friend—without inquiring whether his proposal might be founded on a right view of the British Constitution—without inquiring how far they might assume that they sat there as delegates from particular places

  1265
  rather than as representatives of the people at large—without inquiring whether his principles, if carried to their greatest extent, would or would not lead them to the arrangement of electoral districts—without, in short, stating the different objections which he might feel to much that had been said, he thought the House would see that the general concurrence of opinion was against the Motion of his hon. Friend. Whether he would think it right to press his proposal to a division or not would depend on his own discretion, but he thought the House would be of opinion that a Committee was not a convenient mode of discussing a question of that kind, and was not the method which should be followed by any person who wished to introduce changes into the representative system of this country.
  SIR MAURICE BERKELEYsaid, the Government were no doubt obliged to the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) for the very kind counsel which he had given them. He had a recommendation to give in return. He would advise the hon. Gentleman to offer himself as a witness before this Committee, should it be appointed, as no doubt he would be able to give particular information on the subject and especially upon Government patronage.
  MR. LOCKE KINGobserved, that there was no precedent for a Committee of Inquiry on this question, and hoped that his hon. Friend would not press his Motion to a division.
  MR. WARNERreminded the House that the hon. Member had brought in a Bill on the subject in the last Session, and the House was counted out. He hoped he would take an early opportunity of bringing in that Bill again, and that it would meet with a better reception, seeing that they were so near a dissolution.
  SIR JOSHUA WALMSLEYsaid, the noble Lord at the head of the Government had referred to his having spoken of electoral districts. Now, he carefully avoided alluding to any specific change. He was not at all disappointed at the objections which had been taken to the Committee. If he had brought forward a Bill, it would have been equally objectionable. He brought forward a Bill on a previous occasion, and it was not listened to: there was not a House. Whether it was flog high or flog low, it was precisely the same thing. When the people were peaceable they could get neither Bill nor Committee.
  1266
  But, as soon as the people demanded it with a loud voice, then they might possibly get a Bill. The hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe) had asked him whether he would deal with England, Scotland, or Ireland. He answered, that he would place them on a footing of equality. The hon. Member had spoken of his insulting four millions of people. He begged to say that he offered no insult to them; his anxiety—and the hon. Member knew it—was to give to all who were entitled to it the franchise equally with himself. He would not yield even to the hon. Member in his desire to do what was just towards the people; but, if the hon. Gentleman were really in earnest, why did he not bring forward a measure himself?
  Question put—
  The House divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 190: Majority 117.

RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.

  COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  MR. BENTINCKrose to move for a "Select Committee to inquire into the causes of Accidents on Railways, and into the possibility of removing any such causes by further legislation." He should detain the House but a very few moments while he explained the motives which induced him to make that Motion. It would be recollected that a short time ago he put a question to the Vice President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Lowe), with a view of ascertaining whether it was the intention of the Government during the present Session to introduce any measure for the better prevention of railway accidents. He would not trouble the House with the details of the answer he received upon that occasion; but its effect was, that, in consequence of the diminution in the number of accidents within the last four or five years as proportioned to the great increase of railway travelling, the Government did not feel called upon to legislate upon the subject. Now, it appeared to him that that answer was capable of a construction which he felt sure the right hon. Gentleman never intended it should bear; for although it might be perfectly true that a very small number of accidents occurred in proportion to the enormous numbers that travelled by railways, and although it might also be perfectly true that the number of cases of accident were on the decrease, still it seemed to him that a very strong case for the interference of the

  1267
  Executive would be proved if it could be shown that nine out of every ten accidents might be prevented by further legislation. Giving every credit to the Gentlemen who were at the head of the great Railway Companies of the kingdom for a desire to adopt every means available for the avoidance of accidents, still every one must be aware that Railway Directors were to a certain extent under the control of shareholders, and unfortunately those gentlemen often preferred increased dividends rather than incur the extra expense necessary to diminish the risk of accidents. Having said that much, he should not trouble the House any longer, as he had reason to hope the Government did not intend to oppose the appointment of a Committee.
  Moved—"That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the causes of accidents on railways, and into the possibility of removing any such causes by further legislation."
  MR. HADFIELDdid not think it possible for human invention to devise any means by which the watchfulness now exercised by Railway Directors for the prevention of accidents could be augmented. He thought the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Board of Trade on a former occasion to the hon. Member, fully demonstrated the extraordinary security now enjoyed by railway travellers. He very much doubted the policy of appointing such a Committee.
  MR. PALKsaid, that, as a matter of opinion, he regretted it was not in his power to agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite as to the peculiar security of railway travelling. He thought there were other places somewhat safer than a railway carriage; and he, therefore, could not but feel regret that Government had not interfered more than hitherto had been done with railways. It should be remembered that the railway interest was the greatest monopoly in the country; the companies were the sole carriers of goods and passenger traffic, and they had exercised the great power which their wealth had given them, not for the accommodation of the public, but for the profit wholly and entirely of the shareholders. In his opinion, Government ought years ago to have stepped in, and had they done so the country would have been saved the great national nuisance of the "break of gauge." Upon that point he might mention that it was much easier sometimes to travel round by London than to go across the country
  1268
  a much shorter distance. He certainly thought that before a Committee some means might be devised for lessening the number of accidents which occurred on railways; and if, in the course of evidence taken, any suggestion should appear by which railways companies should be made to accommodate the public more than they did at present in the matter of running trains to correspond with arrivals and departures on adjoining lines, he thought the country at large would be greatly benefited; and although he had no great knowledge on railway matters, not possessing a single share in any line, he might be allowed to say that an amicable understanding between companies would be productive of greater benefit to themselves than the battle of the gauges which Parliament was obliged to witness Session after Session.
  MR. HEYWORTHsaid, he was of opinion that the statistical facts quoted the other day by the Vice President of the Board of Trade were of more consequence than the theories of the hon. Gentleman. He believed that railway travelling was accompanied with less risks than any other kind of travelling, not even excepting travelling on foot. It should be remembered that no persons were more interested in preventing railway accidents than railway directors, and he felt sure that if the hon. Gentleman who brought forward this Motion had any suggestion to make, it would be readily entertained by railway companies; but he objected to the appointment of a Committee to do that which was purely within the province of the directors.
  MR. D. WADDINGTONhoped that the Committee would be agreed to. At the same time he must observe that there was an idea very generally prevalent that companies were indifferent to the lives of passengers; that idea, according to his experience, was very ill founded. Unlike the Gentleman who sat below him (Mr. Palk), he did not believe that railway directors merely looked to the amount of dividends; he knew well that they had regard, above all other considerations, for the lives and safety of those entrusted to them, and the result of a Committee's deliberations must bring that to light. Now, if the Committee were not granted, the effect would be that, supposing an accident to occur which was attended with lamentable loss of life, it might be fairly urged that, had the Committee got the system adopted upon

  1269
  some particular line, it would have been brought into general use, and thus the accident in question might have been avoided. It would also be found that, although parsimony was the rule in some instances, liberality was the rule in others; and he believed that it would be made fully clear that commercial parsimony was a false economy. As one who had taken a considerable interest in the management of railway matters, but as no longer connected with any railway, he could not avoid making these few observations upon the subject now before the House.
  MR. LOWEsaid, the Government had no objection whatever to the appointment of this Committee, and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bentinck) would be able to devise some plan whereby railway travelling might be made safer. He, however, should not deal candidly with the House if he refrained from saying that the interference of any department of the Government in matters of this sort would not be attended with the good results which the hon. Gentleman anticipated. He believed that Lord Campbell's Act had been of great service to the country, because it made the interests of railway proprietors, and of those who travelled upon their lines, identical. He thought that railways were at present managed in a comparatively satisfactory manner, but he should be glad, indeed, if the hon. Gentleman should succeed in devising any plan for the more effectual prevention of the evils of which he had complained.
  MR. CROSSLEYthought the great source of accidents was the non-adoption of the American plan of allowing a communication between the passengers and the engine-driver. A brother of his was once in a carriage on the Great Northern line, which got off the rails, and was dragged along in that way for four miles, before the attention of the driver could be attracted to the circumstance.
  MR. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, that, owing to the recommendations of a former Committee, a cord had been made to run along the bottoms to the carriages of the Great Northern Railway, but it would be more than a passenger's life was worth to attempt to make use of it in case of an alarm of accident—it only admitted of guards using it as a means of communication. He thought that the Committee might be of great advantage if it confined itself to listening to the suggestions of
  1270
  practical engineers, carefully avoiding to enter into the question as to the means by which Government could compel the prevention of these accidents.
  MR. BARNEScordially supported the Committee, but observed that it was the House itself that interfered formerly to prevent many wholesome restrictions upon companies from being carried out—restrictions devised when the Marquess of Dalhousie was at the head of the Board of Trade.
  MR. J. EWARTbelieved that railway directors were anxious to do everything in their power to add to the safety and comfort of their passengers, and that they would be glad to receive any suggestions with that object. Every feasible plan for preventing accidents had been tried on the North-western lines.
  MR. ALCOCKthought it would be desirable that the Committee should extend its inquiries to ascertain how far railway companies had in certain instances been guilty of a breach of faith with the public in not carrying out the powers conferred on them by Act of Parliament? At present the railway department of the Board of Trade was a perfect farce in respect of its power of enforcing on railway companies that which common justice and in many cases common decency required. When the railway from Reigate to Reading was proposed, eleven years ago, a promise was given that a junction should be formed with the South-western line. That pledge had, however, never been redeemed, and the Board of Trade was quite powerless to compel its fulfilment.
  MR. CAYLEYsaid, he did not anticipate much good from the labours of the Committee. It was not in the nature of things that they could travel at the pace of express trains with perfect security; and if the public insisted on extreme speed, it must pay the penalty by incurring some risk. The companies were sometimes rather hardly dealt with under Lord Campbell's Act, which inflicted very heavy penalties on them for accidents due in some measure to the public taste for too rapid travelling.
  MR. JAMES MACGREGORthought that if the Committee gave satisfaction to the public mind it would do no harm, and might be of some good. Trains were often despatched in such quick succession that the public must trust for its safety, not so much to any communication between the

  1271
  passengers and the guard, as to the enforcement of sound discipline among their servants on the part of the railway companies; and any attempt to enforce precautions, under such circumstances, must prove fallacious.
  MR. PRICEthought that no great benefit would result from the labours of the Committee. He hoped, at all events, however, that gentlemen acquainted with railway matters would be nominated on it.
  MR. PACKEsaid, he believed it was to the want of punctuality in the starting and arrival of trains that accidents were mainly attributed in this country. On the Continent, much greater punctuality was observed, and he hoped the Committee would not overlook that consideration.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, that when introducing the Motion, he had not deemed it necessary to strengthen his case by lengthened arguments because he was aware that the Government did not intend to offer him any opposition. The great majority of railway accidents arose from two causes—firstly, the irregular arrivals of trains; secondly, the starting of too many trains in the day. These were causes not beyond the control of the Directors, and therefore he thought a Committee might fairly consider how, by further legislation, they could devise means to diminish the number of railway accidents occurring in this country.
  Motion agreed to.
  Select Committee appointed, "To inquire into the causes of Accidents on Railways, and into the possibility of removing any such causes by further legislation."

CIVIL SERVICE (IRELAND).

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  MR. DEASYrose to call the attention of the House to the present mode of conducting the Examinations of Candidates for admission into the Civil Service; and to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions to have the Examination of Candidates for admission into the Civil Service in Ireland conducted as in England, by Examiners, whose character, acquirements, and experience in examinations render them peculiarly fitted for the duty."
  He wished to disclaim any intention of casting any imputation on the Civil Service Commissioners, or the very respect-
  1272
  able gentleman whom they had to assist them in Ireland. The only fault he found was that an arrangement, meant only to meet a temporary purpose, had been prolonged and continued to a period when a more satisfactory scheme ought to be adopted. In the first Report of the Civil Service Commissioners they stated that they had obtained the assistance of gentlemen as examiners whose character, acquirements, and qualifications rendered them peculiarly fit for the task; some had given their continuous assistance, others had been called in as occasion required. It appeared that three were employed continuously and eight occasionally. The second Report, just published, stated that two gentlemen were employed continuously in conducting the examinations, eight occasionally, and twelve for special purposes in England. In Ireland there was a very unfavourable contrast to this state of things. The Commissioner stated that the duties of examiner in Dublin had been undertaken by R. Ball, Esq., LL.D; but that plan was only adopted as a temporary expedient. Examination papers were sent from London, to which the candidates returned written answers; and these were sent to London for the adjudication of the Commissioners, accompanied by a written Report from Dr. Ball. He wished to speak with every possible respect of that gentleman. He was a gentleman of great integrity; but the very difficult and responsible duty of deciding on the claims and qualifications of all candidates for admission into the Civil Service in Ireland, ought not to be delegated or entrusted to him alone. It was placing him in a position in which he ought not to be any longer continued; and it was due to the service and the public that gentlemen of higher scientific acquirements and of longer academical experience should be associated with him. Another objection to his being continued as sole Examiner was that he held a situation under Government. It was impossible that Dr. Ball himself could be influenced by that; but the public mind in Ireland was peculiarly sensitive on that point. The Reports of Dr. Ball had not been published, which left it uncertain whether the decisions were made by himself or by the Commissioners upon his Reports. This was not fair to the candidates, nor to Dr. Ball himself; it took away from him the responsibility of the decisions, and left the public in ignorance by

  1273
  whom they were made. It was to supply for Ireland the same agency and machinery as was employed in England, and to obviate all ground for suspicion or complaint, that this Motion was made. There would not be the slightest difficulty in procuring for Ireland the agency he sought to establish. There were in Dublin many gentlemen of very high academical position, and of great literary attainments, whose services might be obtained by the Government.
  MR. NAPIERseconded the Motion. He would also bear testimony to the great abilities and respectability of Dr. Ball; but it would be more satisfactory to all parties if the mode of conducting the examinations in England were adopted in Ireland. The great value of the system of competitive examination consisted in the manner in which it was conducted, and that depended in a great measure on the skill and experience of the examiners; and, though it might be open to the disadvantage of not always securing the man most fitted for the post, still it secured an educated man, and carried out the principle of merit being the only qualification for appointment. The system had had a great effect in giving an impulse to education throughout the country, and he should be glad to see it still further extended.
  Motion made, and Question put—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions to have the Examination of Candidates for admission into the Civil Service in Ireland conducted as in England, by examiners whose character, acquirements, and experience in examinations render them peculiarly fitted for the duty."
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the hon. Gentleman who brought forward the Motion had stated with perfect accuracy the mode in which the examination for admission to the civil service was conducted in Ireland. The examination papers were prepared by the Commissioners in London; they were sent to Ireland, where the examination was conducted under the inspection of a local officer; and, after the examination was completed, the papers were collected and returned to the Commissioners in London, with the report of the person who had conducted the local examination. The hon. Gentleman had, however, omitted to state that the examinations in the provinces in England and in Scotland were conducted in a similar manner. There was no peculiarity in the system adopted in Ireland
  1274
  except this, that as there were in that country a considerable number of examinations, instead of confiding their conduct to some local officer of the department, who might be accidentally upon the spot, a gentleman had been employed in Dublin to conduct the examinations regularly. That gentleman was Dr. Robert Ball, of whom he had received very high recommendations, and to whose qualifications the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Napier) had borne testimony, and it might, therefore, be confidently stated that the selection of that gentleman was a proper one, and that he was quite competent to conduct the examinations. It was most important to maintain unity in the standard of examination, and there ought therefore to be one system of examination and one standard enforced with regard to candidates for the civil service in different parts of the United Kingdom, and that result was obtained under the present system. It was, of course, important that that uniformity should be observed in Ireland, for, although there were there many public departments peculiar to that country, there were also branches there of the public services which had their central offices in London. Since the establishment of the system of examination 237 persons had been examined in Ireland for those public departments which had their central offices in London,—namely, 31 for appointments connected with the Customs, 149 for appointments to the Inland Revenue Department, 46 for the Post Office, 5 for the Admiralty, and 6 for the War Department, and these persons might, under certain circumstances, be transferred to any part of the United Kingdom. Only 47 persons were examined for those public departments which had offices exclusively in Ireland. He thought the House would see that, for the purpose of maintaining uniformity of standard, and of having the same description of examination for officers of Customs and Excise in Ireland and in England, it was most material that the examination should be conducted under the control of the same set of Commissioners. He thought, under these circumstances the hon. Gentleman would scarcely expect that he should accede to his Motion; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would say that the Government were most desirous that these examinations in Dublin should be conducted in such a manner as to give satisfaction to the candidates and their relatives, to conduce to the advantage of the public service,

  1275
  and incidentally to afford a stimulus to education. If it could be shown that Dr. Ball was not equal to the duties which devolved upon him, and that he needed assistance in the discharge of his duties, the Government would be ready to consider the propriety of affording him such assistance. He did not, however, think that it would be desirable to establish an independent Board of Commissioners in Dublin, acting upon principles different from those adopted by the Board in London, and applying a different system of examination to all candidates for the civil service. He hoped that the hon. and learned Gentleman would rest satisfied on its being stated that the Government was desirous of acceding to the spirit of his Motion, and that he would not therefore press his Motion to a division.
  MR. DEASYsaid, the numbers given by the right hon. Baronet furnished a reason for conducting the examinations in Ireland on the same principle as those in England. He must decline to withdraw his Motion.
  MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, that the desire of the Government to carry out the spirit of the Motion was rather vague. Did the right hon. Gentleman mean that, after an inquiry into the subject, he would seek to preserve the principle of uniformity in the system by appointing, in addition to Dr. Ball, some other gentlemen as associates of the doctor in Dublin? If so, he (Mr. Hamilton) thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman ought to rest satisfied; but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant, by the spirit of the Motion, that the present system should continue, he was of opinion that his hon. and learned Friend ought not to be satisfied.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he did not think it desirable that the ultimate decision with respect to the examination should be taken out of the hands of the Commissioners in London, and vested in an independent body in Dublin. Dr. Ball simply conducted the examinations in Dublin, and did not decide upon the respective merits of the candidates; and if his unaided agency was insufficient for the proper conduct of the examinations, the Government would be quite ready to take into consideration the propriety of affording him some assistance.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 35; Noes 44: Majority 9.

THE FRANKLIN EXPEDITION.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  MR. NAPIERrose to call the attention of the House to the communications with Her Majesty's Government respecting the Franklin Expedition, and the urgent nature of the claim for a further and complete search. He had been induced to bring forward this subject because it was one of peculiar and pressing interest to more than one of his constituents and friends, and among them the relatives of Captain Crozier, the friend and companion of Franklin, and that fact would account for so humble an individual as he was taking up this present most important question. In June last a memorial was sent in to the Government, signed by some of the most eminent and scientific men in the country in favour of a new expedition in search of Sir John Franklin and his gallant party. The object was one which deeply concerned humanity, and involved, he thought, to some extent the honour and the character of this country. He had hoped that the Government would have replied favourably to that memorial. It was not his wish to precipitate a hasty conclusion respecting it, but time pressed, and it was most important that, If anything was to be done, it should be done quickly. He was sure that the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty, both took a deep interest in this question, and he could not but think that some weighty reason must have prevented them from giving a favourable answer. He might also state that the memorial to which he had referred was strongly supported by an interesting letter from Baron Humboldt, who added the weight of his name and authority in favour of a renewed and thorough search. He would briefly remind the House of what had taken place in reference to this subject up to 1854. Aided by America, an expedition was sent out by this country, which searched through a certain large and extensive circuit. No memorials whatever were found in that district. Some striking and interesting facts, however, came to light within a short period after Dr. Rae's visit to the Arctic regions. That gentleman went out on a geographical expedition in connection with the Hudson's Bay Company. The account brought home by Dr. Rae was, that in a spot which had not been searched certain memorials of the crews of the unfortunate vessels had been found, and that

  1277
  this spot lay within a very limited area well mapped and charted. When this providential testimony reached them, and when they weighed the possibility of some of our gallant countrymen being still in that dreary region, one would think that a speedy search would have been instituted in accordance with the spirit and character and honour of England. But the sympathies of the Government were absorbed by the war which then broke out, and the only thing done was to institute an investigation through the medium of the Hudson's Bay Company, in order to obtain a corroboration of the facts communicated by Dr. Rae. This was necessarily an imperfect and ineffective search, yet it served to show that the Government were not disposed to rest satisfied with what Dr. Rae had done. The result of this expedition was to bring to light other memorials, and to strengthen the hope that perhaps some of the unfortunate individuals belonging to Sir John Franklin's party were still struggling for existence. Who would be so presumptuous as to say that at this moment some of those men might not be in those lonely regions still hoping that their brave and indomitable countrymen at home had not forgotten them, but would persevere in carrying out measures for their relief? He would not insult the noble Lord at the head of the Government, or the First Lord of the Admiralty, by supposing that the question of expense would for a moment weigh with them if they saw it to be a matter of duty to employ another expedition. Lady Franklin, with the true spirit of a woman, was prepared to devote such property as she had to a search for her husband in the event of the Government declining to do so; but she knew well the difference between an expedition undertaken by a private individual and one that would carry with it the weight and influence of the Government. She had written a touching letter to the noble Lord at the head of the Government upon the subject, and within a very few days afterwards the interesting circumstance took place of the American Government sending back the Resolute to this country; and the gallant officer who had been charged with the mission of bringing over that ship (Captain Hartstein) had volunteered to serve in any expedition that might be sent out. Would it not be humiliating to the spirit and honour of this country if it were left to an American expedition, or to one sent by Lady Franklin, to rescue some of the
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  gallant survivors of Sir John Franklin's party, or to discover some more interesting memorials of the two crews? He could well understand why in 1849 or 1850 a question of doubt as to the expediency of such an expedition as that which he now proposed arose; but let them consider what had taken place since then. In the first place, one of the rewards of the Arctic searches had been the discovery of the north-west passage by his gallant countryman Captain M'Clure. It had been over and over again stated that the Franklin expedition must have perished previously to 1849 off Baffin's Bay, because the first expedition was unable to get beyond Leopold's Island. However, so far were these speculations from being correct, that the next expedition sent out discovered articles which proved that Franklin and his companions must have wintered in Beechey Island four years after the time at which it was confidently stated they must have perished. Again, it had been stated that the Franklin party could not by any possibility have gone in the direction which it was afterwards proved they had taken; and several of the speculations as to their locale made before the Arctic Committee had since been falsified by evidence. In 1852, when Dr. Rae was going out on the geographical expedition, he stated that there was no chance whatever of the missing crew being where he was going. The space within which there was any use in searching had been reduced to very narrow limits. It lay within four degrees of latitude and five of longitude. Beechey Island had been several times reached without much difficulty, and so had been the mouth of the Fish River; so that they had Beechy Island on the one side and the Fish River on the other. Between these two points there was a distance of about 400 miles, and within this space indisputably lay the spot where the vessels and crews were about the year 1850. Would they, then, when they had this place mapped and charted, leave it unsearched so long as the fate of 138 gallant men lay unascertained? Would they do this when they remembered how these men had risked their lives for the purposes of science? On the ground of expense he took it an expedition could not be denied; and as for the risk, there were, to their honour be it said, a number of gallant officers, both British and American, willing to undergo all the risks and hardships that might be attendant on a search

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  for our devoted countrymen. And the risk was not at all what it had been in the case of the former expeditions. They had now a definite spot, mapped and charted, to which to limit the search; they had not only a strong hope, but a positive assurance, that within that limited region at least further memorials of Franklin and his comrades would be found. They had evidence which he thought conclusive to any plain man that a considerable number of the crew had been making their way towards the Fish River, and they must have left behind them some memorial. The carved stick was probably left to indicate the route taken, and, perhaps, some graves might yet be discovered, with the assistance of the Esquimaux, if interpreters were sent out. He was confident that had it not been for the accident of all our energies and sympathies being enlisted in the carrying on of a great war, at the time Mr. Anderson's expedition sailed, much more assistance would have been given to that gentleman. They could not tell what beneficial results might not follow the sending out of a properly equipped expedition, provided with the requisites for dividing into two parties to make a land search, and approach each other from opposite sides. If what had lately been stated with respect to some of the memorials already found was correct, it would appear that the north-west passage had been discovered before Captain M'Clure found it, by some of Franklin's party going down the Fish River. There was no want of the means of equipping another expedition. The Admiralty had vessels sufficient, including the Resolute, which had been so handsomely presented to us, fully equipped by the American Government. There were Arctic stores lying up as rubbish; and there were volunteers in abundance. He admitted that there was difficulty; but difficulty was no answer to duty. When we considered the calls made by the relatives of those gallant men, the claims of humanity, the demands of society, the testimony of eminent scientific men, and the touching appeal of Lady Franklin, he could hardly think that the First Lord of the Admiralty would feel it to be his duty to persevere in refusing to sanction another expedition. He would further observe that England had a mission to perform in favour of Christianity and civilization as well as of abstract science; and from the testimony of Captain M'Clure it appeared that considerable advantage
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  had been derived in his expedition from the presence of a Moravian missionary; and perhaps one result of sending out another expedition would be that these frozen regions would be opened up to civilization and Christianity. The press generally was in favour of another trial, and under all the circumstances he again expressed his hope that he should not receive an unfavourable and dispiriting answer from the First Lord of the Admiralty. As a matter of form he would move for the production of all Communications that had been made to the Government since the last Session of Parliament respecting the Arctic Expedition.
  CAPTAIN SCOBELLthanked the right hon. and learned Gentleman for calling the attention of the House and the Government to this subject. He knew Franklin and Parry, and he had had conversations with many recent Arctic voyagers. He was a member of the Arctic Committee, and had heard and read everything that had been said and published on this subject for the last twenty years. He knew there was a responsibility in sending out men upon another expedition, because accidents might happen; but there were many volunteers ready to take the responsibility and risk. It should be remembered that the Government need not ask any one to go who was not a volunteer. Plenty of sailors might be got, and the Government could obtain a dozen competent officers to volunteer for another expedition. At present the risk was nothing compared with that of the previous expeditions, since former travellers had to penetrate from Beechy Island and to grope their way as they could along the whole north western passage. If the Government, however, determined to send another expedition, there was not a day or an hour to be lost. Two expeditions ought to be sent—one by sea and one by land. He would send two small vessels; and his belief was, that if the expedition were perfectly equipped and immediately despatched, even if Franklin and his crew were not found alive, there would at least be found records and relies that would be gratifying to the country. If any of the crew reached the main land alive, they might remain among the Esquimaux for twenty years; and the country would never give up the idea that some were still in existence unless a final expedition were undertaken. If it were only to instil into the minds of men engaged in the service of the country that

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  nothing whatever would be left undone to insure their safety, he urged on the Government to undertake a new expedition. The opinion of scientific persons and of all who had thought on the matter was in favour of it. The Resolute, if not calculated to be sent out again, might be left an object of attraction for years in the condition in which the Americans had sent her over; but he begged to add his voice to the kindly and Christian appeal made to the Government by the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copies of any Communication made to Her Majesty's Government, since the end of last Session of Parliament, respecting the Franklin expedition, and the urgent nature of the claim for a further and complete search."
  ADMIRAL WALCOTTsaid, that from the convictions which he entertained on this subject, he was under the necessity of refusing to give his assistance to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin. The Erebus and Terror left England in 1845, with 136 officers and men on board. They had found traces of them on Beecby Island in the graves of three men who had been buried in 1846. No further tidings were heard of Sir John Franklin's party till the year 1854, when Dr. Rae obtained from the Esquimaux information that forty white men had been seen on King William's Island, thirty near the entrance of the Back or Great Fish River, and five in Montreal Island. Dr. Rae brought to England relics which he had obtained from the Esquimaux, and one of these was Sir John Franklin's badge of the Guelphic Order. Now he (Admiral Walcott) could not think that Sir John had ever parted with that to any one. In 1855, Messrs. Anderson and Stewart obtained, through the Esquimaux, several pieces of mahogany, and a bit of rope, on which was the Queen's mark, and the Esquimaux said that they had belonged to white men who had perished of hunger. He (Admiral Walcott) yielded to no man in a desire to recover Sir John Franklin and his companions; but he should confess that he could not see in the horizon any beacon to light him to that hope. He knew that there would be plenty of volunteers, Captain M'Clintock had volunteered his services for another expedition; but that gallant officer said, that
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  he believed 3,000 miles would have to be traversed in sledges. He (Admiral Walcott) was of opinion, that expense or risk should not be spared if there was a chance of rescuing gallant men; but all that zeal and enterprize could do had been done, all which humanity could dictate had been performed—even the disappointing problem of centuries had been solved: and as he did not believe there was the slightest chance of success in the present case, he could not consent to peril the lives of a number of British sailors in an expedition such as that proposed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman whose Motion was before the House. As to any benefit to be obtained in the way of scientific discovery, he did not think that the chances in this way were such as to justify such an expedition. By a former expedition the problem that remained in doubt had been solved; but it had also been ascertained that the north-west passage could never be turned to any useful purpose in consequence of the masses of floating or stationary ice which barred the passage to any practical navigation by shipping. Let this suffice. They would only send out new martyrs of a fruitless and unprofitable search, call up the remonstrances of the wise and the reproaches of the bereaved, already too audible; and realize anew that frightful spectacle of the British seamen perishing by inches of cold and hunger, to lie unburied on the frozen sea pale and intrepid, sad and unsubdued.
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he was glad that the hon. and gallant Admiral had spoken before him, for in almost every word that fell from him he entirely concurred, and he was glad to have the gallant Officer's authority in confirmation of his own opinion, that we should but be exposing to unnecessary risk the lives of our gallant seamen, by sending out another expedition which we felt to be hopeless. The Government were not insensible to the appeal very naturally made by Lady Franklin for pursuing the search to the utmost possible limits, or to the appeal of those scientific bodies who had addressed the Government in favour of a further search; nor would the Government be insensible to these appeals, on the score of humanity, if they entertained the slightest hope that by sending out another expedition survivors might be found and their lives preserved. While such hope existed, no risk or expense had deterred successive Governments from sending out expeditions

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  in search of Sir John Franklin and his companions. At the same time, he was happy to bear testimony to the gallant and generous feeling which had animated our Transatlantic brethren in sending out expeditions with that object. But let the House consider what had been done. It was now twelve years since Sir John Franklin's expedition left England; and since then six expeditions had been sent out; and though it was quite true that no one grudged the money while a hope of saving life remained, yet there had been expended in public expeditions, independent of expeditions fitted out by private individuals, and those sent by America, not less than £610,000. However, it was not the expense which deterred the Government from sending out another expedition; but, believing that there was no hope of finding any survivor of Sir John Franklin's fatal expedition, they did not feel justified in exposing to the risks, inseparable from such explorations, the lives of other gallant officers and men, though he had not the slightest hesitation in saying that, to the honour of our gallant navy, volunteers would be found, both officers and men, sufficient for twenty expeditions. The Government had, in many respects, a most painful duty to perform, but he did not think that any reasonable person entertained the expectation that any of the men of Sir John Franklin's expedition could be found alive. They left the country twelve years ago; and, taking the account which Dr. Rae gave, the last tidings of them were, that in 1850 a party of thirty or forty were seen passing over King William's Island, near the mouth of the Great Fish River, and they must have perished in that year. He was afraid that the last survivor of the expedition perished in 1850. He might state, that no one of the Arctic officers with whom he (Sir C. Wood) had conversed upon the subject had ventured to say that the last of the crew lived beyond that year, however anxious some of those officers were to take part in another expedition. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) was a lawyer, and he would know what weight was to be attached to a decision in a court of law upon evidence. Now, this very question of the probability of any of the crew in the expedition of Sir John Franklin being now alive, had been argued in the Court of Session in Scotland; and that Court, after considering all the best evidence that could be adduced, decided that every person in
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  that expedition must be presumed to have perished so far back as the year 1853. The right hon. Gentleman had said that a future expedition would run less risks than previous expeditions, because the area to be visited was limited, and mapped, and charted; but, however limited it might be, it was not mapped and charted, and yet, as it was supposed that Sir John Franklin's expedition perished there, it would be necessary for any new expedition that might be sent out to obtain information about him to run the very same risks which he ran; and it happened, moreover, that what the right hon. Gentleman called a limited area of five degrees of latitude, and four degrees of longitude was precisely that which was neither mapped nor charted. The right hon. Gentleman had assumed that all the ships belonging to the Franklin expedition had either perished or had been abandoned. If they had perished, the probability was that all on board had perished with them. If, however, they had been voluntarily abandoned, it was not probable that those who abandoned them would leave on board that which, after the necessaries of life, was the most valuable part of their property, namely, those journals and records which it was their special duty to make and keep. He (Sir C. Wood) therefore did not think that any new expedition ought to be sent out on the ground urged by the scientific advocates of the expedition, that at least the journals or logs of the Franklin expedition might be obtained. If, on the other hand, those articles were taken away by the crew in abandoning the ships, he thought it was equally obvious that the last of the survivors would perish with the bags and journals about them; and it was not likely that the last survivor, before his death, could have deposited them in a place which he had deliberately selected as that which was best calculated to enable any other person to discover them; and where, within an area of 1,200 miles, were they to search for something which, when found, would not be worth the trouble and danger of the search? He thought the prospect, therefore, of any new expedition being able to discover any scientific records of the Franklin expedition was so slight, that he (Sir C. Wood) did not think that a new expedition ought to be risked, and as to discovering any of the men alive he believed there was no prospect whatever. Some more relics of the ships, such as pieces of wood and iron, oars of the boats, or

  1285
  things of that kind, of which we already had an abundance, might be discovered; but it was very doubtful whether even any more of such relics could be met with. They were too valuable to the Esquimaux to escape their search, and the probabilities were that, if the ships had been abandoned, they had been visited and rifled. Would the Government, then, be justified under such circumstances in risking the lives of 150 men in a new expedition? He quite agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Scobell), that if another expedition were determined upon, two ships at least should be sent out, and that the expedition should be furnished with the means of landing and of passing at least two winters on the spot; but he really believed that it would not be worth while to risk any such expedition. His hon. and gallant Friend had appealed to the Government to send out another and final expedition, but there was a very strong reason why the Government should decline the responsibility of sending out any such expedition. Five vessels had already been abandoned in the different expeditions sent out on the search for Sir John Franklin, the crews of which had been rescued by other vessels; and it was not impossible that any other expedition might meet with the same fate as the Franklin expedition, and then there would have to be renewed expeditions without end to discover the survivors, in order that such people as those to whom his hon. and gallant Friend had alluded, namely, those who supposed that a portion of the Franklin expedition might be living, for the next ten or twenty years, might be gratified. But the lapse of time since that expedition sailed was so great that he (Sir C. Wood) believed there was no possibility of there now being a survivor. He had never felt that the risk of life which Arctic voyages involved was justified by the scientific results which might be attainable by such expeditions. He regretted at the time when the Franklin expedition was determined upon that the Government should have consented to risk so much for so little as the mere discovery of what was called the North-west Passage. He still remained of the same opinion. He regretted that the expectations of so many people who were interested in the question should be disappointed by the avowal; but, he must say again, that he was most unwilling to incur any fresh responsibility with regard to that expedition, and was obliged to say that
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  Her Majesty's Government could not give any encouragement to the proposal to send out another expedition,
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, that he once thought on this subject as the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty did now, but he had recently been much in communication with Arctic officers, and from them he learnt that there was not only much to be gained in a scientific point of view, but that there was a possibility of some portion of the crew of the Franklin expedition being still alive. The enterprise originally undertaken for the discovery of a north-west passage, might have been one of doubtful advantage; but considering that the country had already spent £610,000 in exploration of the Arctic regions; that there was now only a very small territory in those regions which remained unexplored; that Franklin or some of his companions might possibly be living with the Esquimaux Indians in the neighbourhood of the very spot where traces of them had been found, he thought it behoved this great maritime nation to continue the exploration of that small spot of which we knew nothing. America expected, and the whole civilized world expected, that we should make at least one more effort. He would suggest that as Government had a great number of small steamers unemployed, and a large quantity of Arctic stores, which were at present utterly worthless, if they did not like to take the responsibility upon themselves of fitting out another expedition, they should place a couple of these steam vessels at the disposal of any body of scientific or mercantile men who would be willing to bear the other expenses of the expedition and the responsibility of finding proper crews. If they intimated their readiness to do that, he felt satisfied in his own mind that the necessary funds would be at once raised, and the expedition sent forth without delay. But if that course was to be adopted, it must be adopted at once, or it would be useless.
  MR. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, he did not think the country would accept as final the decision of the First Lord of the Admiralty. A great problem in geographical science had been solved by the Arctic expeditions; and, with the exception of the deplorable loss of the Erebus and Terror, those expeditions had been attended with a smaller sacrifice of life than often occurred on other stations where our ships were doomed to inglorious inactivity.

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  This was a question on which landsmen must, after all, rely on the judgment of nautical officers, and certainly the weight of authority seemed enormously in favour of a further search. The First Lord of the Admiralty said, that nobody whose opinion was deserving of weight believed that any of Sir John Franklin's party still survived. Was the right hon. Gentleman unaware that Dr. Kane, Sir Francis Beaufort (late Hydrographer to the Admiralty) and Captain Sherard Osborn, entertained a belief that some of them might be yet alive? The interest felt by the country in this matter was a growing one; and, if the present Government abandoned it, it would force itself upon the attention of their successors. Lady Franklin was a woman not easily to be baffled in such a cause. She had set her heart and her fortune on what she deemed a great duty, and one way or another she would accomplish it. The public would rally round her, and an expedition would be fitted out. That would probably be small and insufficient, and on the Government would fall, in his opinion, a responsibility quite as great as that which the First Lord of the Admiralty declined to assume. The consigning of the Resolute to lie up in ordinary as a dismantled hulk could hardly be regarded as an act of courtesy by the American Government. A better appreciation might have been shown of the handsome spirit in which that vessel was presented to this country by our Translantic kinsfolk. The scientific authority on this question was backed up by everybody who had been connected with the great Arctic expeditions, and who gave their voice in favour of one more final attempt—not from a love of adventure, of which they had already had enough, nor from a love of fame, of which, too, they had had enough—but because they believed that if a further search were not made the Government and the people of this country would fail in their duty.
  MR. WHITESIDEadmitted that the First Lord of the Admiralty had spoken fairly and considerately, and that the Government had not been indifferent to the supposed fate of Sir John Franklin and his companions; but it appeared that his objection to the proposed expedition rested chiefly on financial grounds. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government had sent out several expeditions, and spent a large sum of money, in order, if possible, to discover traces of Franklin and his brave
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  comrades. True; but let it be remembered, that in proportion to the number of expeditions sent forth had they lessened their future labours and limited the sphere within which any fresh expedition would have to act. From the conversation he had held with Sir Robert M'Clure, who had quitted his ship at the end of the fourth year, and would have gladly remained another year in the Polar regions for the purpose of prosecuting those researches upon which he felt that his character as an officer was in a measure involved, it would not appear that the climate was so fatal to human life as had been represented. The American traveller, Dr. Kane, not only expressed his belief that he believed some of the men belonging to Franklin's expedition might be found among the Esquimaux, but said he should be glad to live with them himself, and he very amusingly described the difficulty which he had to prevent his sailors taking to a life among the Esquimaux. The Government, at any rate, would have plenty of volunteers if they would take the matter in hand. At all events, he did not understand from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that he had submitted the proposition for another expedition to the opinion of the eminent men who had already prosecuted the work of discovery in the Arctic regions; or that, having submitted the question to their consideration, they had advised him against it. He had the highest possible respect for the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman; but, without meaning any discourtesy towards him, he (Mr. Whiteside) must say that, until he heard that that was the case, he would prefer the opinion of Sir Robert M'Clure or Captain M'Clintock, or the other eminent men who had signed the document which delared that it was a fit thing to undertake another expedition. If the Government did not themselves undertake the expedition, the result would be the sending forth an expedition by private subscription, the operations of which would not be so well or so wisely conducted as they would be if the right hon. Gentleman would be so good as to furnish two small screw ships, manned by gallant crews and commanded by brave and distinguished men, who by the prosecution of useful inquiries would at once benefit science and satisfy the humane feelings of the nation.
  SIR MAURICE BERKELEYsaid, he was ready to give the right hon. Gentle-

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  man who had brought forward this question, every credit for the feeling and anxiety he had shown respecting it. It had been stated, and stated truly, that there were many officers who had been in the Arctic regions—he might add, and many also who had not—who were most anxious to go upon the proposed expedition. But, acting in his official capacity, he (Admiral Berkeley) had seen all the officers who had been employed on previous researches, and he found that, whilst some few believed that a portion of Franklin's party might still exist, the greater number—indeed, almost all—were of opinion that they did not exist, and that the only satisfaction to be obtained from another expedition would be the poor one of ascertaining where their remains were. The right hon. and learned Gentleman stated that a ship sent to Beechy Island would be in no danger, the latitude and longitude of that place, and the navigation so far being already known; but he (Admiral Berkeley) would remind him that of three ships sent out on the last expedition in 1853, under one of the most gallant and determined young officers of the day, one was lost, and another twice placed in a position of the greatest possible danger. The commander of that expedition had nothing to discover. He was instructed merely to go to Beechy Island; and here was an extract from the letter of Captain Inglefield to the Admiralty, dated on board her Majesty's ship Phœnix, off Thurso, the 4th of October, 1853—
  "It has not been without great difficulty, considerable peril to the safety of this vessel, and the total loss of the Breadalbane transport, without the loss of a single life.
  "This unfortunate event, which occurred on the morning of the 21st of August, off Beechy Island, no human power could have averted; and my own vessel, which at that time had the transport actually in tow, barely escaped a similar fate, receiving a severe nip, which rose the stern several feet, and arched the quarter-deck, destroying the rudder and screw. One of the beams forward was sprung, and the port bow partially stove, breaking one of the riders and forcing in the planking.
  "Shortly, however, a rapid run of the outer floe to the westward placed the Phœnix in the most perilous position. I ordered the hands to be turned up, not that aught could be done, but to be ready in case of the worst to provide for their safety.
  "I now deemed it advisable for the safety of the vessel to proceed to the inner bight of the harbour, which, lying behind a shallow spit, perfectly secured her from ice driving in or out, and should we be unable to get away this year, would prove a good position for winter quarters.
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  "I was ill prepared for such a contingency, as we had not left on board sufficient provisions for our now much-increased crew, having the people of the three other vessels of my squadron with me, besides supernumeraries and invalids."
  Now, had anything happened to the Phœnix, the only ship remaining of the three, one having been left behind by order, would they not have had to send out another expedition to look for Captain Inglefield, and if anything had happened to that, another and yet another? He had studied these things well, as was his duty to do, and had felt great pain when he found that he differed from other officers on the subject. But he had arrived at the same conclusion as his right hon. Friend the First Lord, that he could not—dared not—recommend the sending forth another expedition upon so hopeless an errand. He was sorry to say this; but it was his fixed opinion, and not only his, but the fixed opinion of two gallant Admirals who had given him liberty to state as much on their part. He knew it was a most unpleasant duty for a British commander to restrain the courage of his officers and men; but it was sometimes absolutely and imperatively necessary in order to prevent that courage growing into rashness.
  MR. W. J. FOXsaid, the question was not whether the Government would undertake the responsibility of sending out another expedition, but whether they would demur to receive and act upon the recommendation of the House to that effect. The risk and danger, supposing the plan suggested were adopted, had been greatly overrated, and sufficient consideration had not been given to the limited area over which the search would have to be prosecuted. It was impossible to suppose that the Erebus and Terror could have disappeared from the face of the earth without leaving a trace behind. Indeed, we had negative evidence to show that they had not been destroyed by some sudden catastrophe. No doubt a considerable change had lately taken place in public opinion on the subject. He himself was conscious of such a change. Some time ago he had been of opinion that the time had gone by for any further search; but that impression had been materially changed within a short time by various considerations which had been put forward. He now entertained hope that some of Franklin's companions might yet be living among the Esquimaux. It was possible that some traces of the

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  expedition might be discovered among the Esquimaux, but he thought it was at least due to the memory of the gallant men under Franklin's command that some endeavour should be made to ascertain their fate. The interest on this subject was not confined to literary men, or to persons interested in science and the general progress of discovery; but he believed that it would afford high gratification to the great mass of the people of this country if the Government made another attempt, if not to save the lives of Sir John Franklin and his brave companions, at least to learn something of their discoveries, their sufferings, and their heroism.
  MR. EVELYN DENISONhoped he might be permitted, without offence to those whose feelings were engaged in this matter, to express an opinion that the decision at which the Government had arrived was one founded on justice and wisdom. An hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lindsay) had said just now that America and all the communities of the civilized world expected that some effort should be made in this matter. But there was another community which ought to be considered, and that was the community of this country; and his belief was that the great mass of the people of England thought that enough, and more than enough, had been done. The hon. Gentleman had made a new proposition—namely, that the Government should free themselves from responsibility by lending two ships, and that the means for the expedition should be provided from private resources. But that was not the duty of the Government. Their duty was to make up their minds as to what should be done, and then to do it on their own responsibility. But if they acted on the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman they would not practically be free from responsibility if anything went wrong. He believed the Government had made up their minds rightly on this question, and that the general opinion of the country would concur in the propriety of their decision.
  MR. NAPIER,in reply, said he regretted the conclusion to which the Government had come, and could not help thinking that in some respects Lady Franklin had been hardly treated; for at the end of the last Session the Government had promised to consider during the recess the propriety of sending out another expedition, and he had felt a difficulty in bringing the subject under the attention of the House until their decision was an-
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  nounced. He would suggest, however, that she might at all events be supplied with stores and other things for any private expedition that might be sent out, without entailing responsibility upon the Government. It would, indeed, be singular if after incurring all the risk and expense we had, and arriving at the very point where we knew there would of a certainty be something discovered about the missing explorers, we determined on drawing back and proceeding with our inquiries no further. He did think the civilized world expected England to make the final search, and if she did not that she would stand condemned before them. After the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, however, he would not press the Motion to a division.
  COLONEL FREESTUNobserved that it was the opinion of Sir George Back that it was not advisable to send out another expedition, in consequence of the risk to life which it would involve.
  Motion by leave withdrawn.

SAVINGS BANKS.

  COMMITTEE. RESOLUTION MOVED.
  Order for Committee on Savings Banks read.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that in the then thinly attended state of the benches it would not be necessary for him to enter into a lengthened statement of the measure which he proposed to bring in to alter the law in respect to savings banks. The present state of the law of savings bank was admitted to be inconvenient and unsatisfactory. The whole management was now vested in local trustees and managers; who required the actuary, who was the resident officer, to give a bond, which bond was the whole security that the depositors frequently possessed against fraud, for the trustees and managers were not personally responsible. He might mention the recent case of the Bromley Savings bank, where the defalcations amounted to £1,000 while the bond given by the actuary was only for £50, the consequence being that the depositors were exposed to severe loss. At present the Government were only responsible for that amount which was transferred to the Bank of England. What he proposed was without imposing any additional charge beyond that which would be necessary for payments that might be made to a limited extent for inspection, to give to depositors the ad-

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  vantage of Government security to the whole extent of their deposits in all cases where savings banks complied with certain conditions to be specified in this Bill. In that way security would be afforded to the Government against loss in such a manner as would secure the depositors also against loss. It would be the duty of that House to see that the Government did not undertake any responsibility for the depositors' money without obtaining proper control over those deposits, and without taking the proper security against fraud and embezzlement of officers. On the other hand, it would be found that the provisions of the Bill did not impose conditions upon the trustees and managers which were not reasonable and satisfactory. The savings banks would also retain their character of local management and dependence upon the exertions and recommendation of local trustees. He would now move to resolve, That it is expedient to amend the laws relating to savings banks, and to provide for the establishment of savings banks with the security of the Government; and he would afterwards introduce a Bill framed to effect that object.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYwished to remind the House, that the savings banks money in the hands of the Commissioners for reducing the National Debt, amounted to £36,000,000, and that if the stock were now sold, there would result a loss of £5,000,000 sterling. Now in whose custody were those funds? Practically the whole was in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That was wrong. The whole of the stock was in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who did as he pleased with it—sold it as he thought proper, influencing the market, and possessing the power of being the greatest stock-jobber in the country. There were other savings banks' Commissioners, as the Speaker, the Lord Chief Baron, and other exalted Personages; but they never met, the law was not enforced, the Commission was merely nominal, and the sole power was practically in the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a trust, and the result was a deficiency of £5,000,000. There had been £36,000,000 of hard cash paid to the Commissioners, and the stock they held only amounted to £31,000,000. That was not the proper way of dealing with a trust. The power held by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was most monstrous and un-
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  constitutional, and he hoped that the House, now that question was before it, would take care that this vast power was placed in proper hands, and regulated by proper enactment. He Sir H. Willoughby) having had communication with the savings banks throughout the country, knew that they felt the opinion he had expressed.
  MR. GROGANwas glad the Government had at last taken up the question, the condition of which was a sad blot on our social system. Until recent unfortunate failures it had been supposed that the Government was responsible for the whole of the deposits. He wished to know if any change was to be made in the rate of interest?
  MR. WILKINSONinquired whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to make any alteration in the mode of investment in the savings banks, or whether he would let this mode of defalcation go on increasing?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that, with respect to the rate of interest, it was not his intention to propose any alteration; but he should propose an alteration in the amount of deposit, which at present was limited to £200. Believing that the great object of the Savings Banks was, not to afford a place of investment to persons of moderately large means, but a safe investment for persons of small means, he should propose to limit the maximum amount of deposit to £100; at the same time affording facilities to the depositors for becoming stockholders through the savings banks. With respect to the deficit, which certainly accrued under the present system, he had no intention of making any proposition. The observations of the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) raised questions not necessarily involved in the Bill he proposed to lay on the table, which was limited exclusively to the local management of the savings banks, and did not affect the supreme administration in respect to what might be called the controlling power. It was true that the Commissioners in whom the administration of the funds of the savings banks was vested never looked into it, the real authority being centred in the Comptroller General, Sir Alexander Spearman, under the general superintendence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It might be desirable—he did not deny it—to make some alteration in that administration; but

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  he begged leave to remark that he considered the Government fairly entitled, being subject to the losses that arose from the variation in the funds, to make the best use they could of the savings banks money by the transfer of securities when it was more beneficial to invest in Exchequer bills rather than in Consols, and vice versâ. The securities at present held by the Commissioners of savings banks were to the amount of £25,958,000 in Three per Cent, stock, £5,480,000 in Exchequer bills, and £1,765,000 in Exchequer bonds. He would now take the opportunity of answering a question put to him by the hon. Baronet some nights ago with respect to the Exchequer bonds held by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. The Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt held £1,765,000 Exchequer bonds on account of savings banks. These purchases were all made through the Bank, to whom the securities were issued, in order to pass them on to the Commissioners. They were authorized to purchase these securities by the Acts under which the bonds were issued. The purchase originally extended to £1,850,000; but they sold £85,000 to the Patriotic Fund, which reduced the amount to £1,765,000, the amount now in their possession. The remainder of the £2,000,000—namely, £235,000—was held by the Patriotic Fund. The purchases were made between August, 1854, and the 11th of January, 1855. The money for the purchase was provided partly by the sums received from Exchequer bills held by the Commissioners, and which were paid off and cancelled, partly from cash balance arising from dividends, and partly from sales of stock. For many years the savings banks had been recognized as forming a desirable subject for legislation, and though he did not flatter himself that he had produced a measure free from all objection, in endeavouring to reconcile the claims of the local management with the necessity of taking adequate security for the Government, he nevertheless hoped with some confidence that the conditions he proposed would be found safe and moderate. He hoped the House would examine the Bill with indulgence, being conscious of the real difficulties which beset the subject and of the losses entailed on poor depositors, when the lamentable event occurred of a failure through the fraud of a local officer, and it
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  turned out, contrary to their expectations, that they possessed no security, and were thereby exposed to most distressing and painful consequences.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYwas glad to hear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought that the administration of the savings banks funds ought to be considered, but there was one power to which the right hon. Gentleman had not alluded. The Chancellor of the Exchequer virtually had the power under the Act of creating new stock without the knowledge of the House. He thought that the Government, in varying their securities, exercised an exorbitant and monstrous power.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he could not admit that the power of varying Government securities was exorbitant and monstrous. The hon. Baronet assumed that the conversion of Exchequer bills into Consols implied some excessive power on the part of the Government; but Exchequer bills are just as complete and valid Government annuities as Three per Cent. Consols. It is not as if the Government had the power of creating debt. They merely vary the security of which the debt consists. Instead of it being a debt in the form of Exchequer bills, it becomes, by the variation, a debt in the form of Consols or Exchequer bonds. He admitted that the power to make that variation was a fit subject for discussion in that House, but he could not admit that it was unconstitutional and exorbitant.
  COLONEL DUNNEthanked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his proposition, which, if it should become law, would be of great service to Ireland. The depositors in the two banks in Ireland which failed, had placed faith in them because they thought that savings banks were under Government inspection.
  MR. WILKINSONsaid, he could understand that Government refused to allow the claims of the banks that had failed, because it would be a bad precedent; but seeing that Government would hereafter be responsible, he asked if Government would now liquidate the claims of those unfortunate depositors?
  MR. BARROWwas glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to make any alteration in the rate of interest; and hoped that that local management of savings banks, which had given so much satisfaction to depositors, would not be interfered with.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in answer to the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Wilkinson), said that the Bill which he intended to bring in would secure depositors prospectively, upon certain conditions being complied with; but it would not have a retrospective operation.
  Resolved, That it is expedient to amend the laws relating to Savings Banks, and to provide for the establishment of Savings Banks with the security of the Government."
  Resolution to be reported To morrow.
  The House resumed.
  The House adjourned at half after Ten o'clock.