Commons Sitting of 15 August 1857

MINUTES.
3° Charitable Trusts Acts Continuance; Mutiny (East India); Parochial Schoolmasters (Scotland) (No. 2.)
NEW PALACE YARD.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CONOLLYsaid, he would beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been drawn to the present arrangement for ingress to and egress from New Palace Yard, and whether it is not possible to effect some improvement in the same?
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he was not at all aware of any inconvenience of the kind referred to until he saw the notice of the hon. Member's question on the paper. He would make inquiry into the matter, and if any inconvenience was experienced from the present arrangement, he would take steps to have it remedied.

  MR. GLADSTONE AND THE MORNING POST.—EXPLANATION.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he would beg for a moment to be permitted to advert to the personal statement he had made on the
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  previous night. It appeared that he had used the word "falsehoods" with respect to the allegations made in reference to himself of which he had then complained, and as that term might imply wilful falsehoods, he begged to explain that his intention was simply to use the word "untruths."

  MILITIA BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  MR. STAFFORDsaid, allusion had been made in a recent debate to the difficulty of procuring recruits for the militia, and no Member, except the Prime Minister, had taken any notice of that statement. He (Mr. Stafford) had since made it his business to ascertain whether there was any reason assigned for that difficulty, for he thought it would be a pity that the statement in question should go forth to the public if there was no foundation for it. He confessed he had no apprehension of such difficulty being felt. At the present moment it was, no doubt, of the utmost importance that every hour of sunshine and daylight should be made use of in getting in the harvest; and, in consequence of the large quantities of cereals now grown in Ireland, the same amount of labour was not available for this country as in former years, but as soon as the harvest was completed there would be no difficulty in obtaining recruits. The liberal scale of pensions given to the soldiers at the close of the Crimean war would be a great inducement to men even of a better class than usual to enlist. There was also a very general feeling throughout the country that the soldier should be well provided for and well looked after. It would not fail to have a beneficial effect if some reliable assurances were given by the War Office that every care should be taken of the men during the perilous and dangerous service on which they embarked; and he suggested the desirability of the Under Secretary for War, before the close of the Session, laying before the House all the arrangements fur clothing, medical comforts, and hospital accommodation to be provided for the army serving abroad.
  House in Committee.
  Bill passed through Committee.
  House resumed. Bill reported, as amended, to be considered on Monday,

  CONSOLIDATION FUND (APPROPRIATION BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  House in Committee.
  Clause 1.
  MR. CAIRDsaid, he wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to the Vote of £10,000 for an Industrial Museum in Edinburgh, which was withdrawn by the Government in Committee of Supply.
  THE CHAIRMANruled that it would be irregular to raise a discussion upon a clause which did not refer to the Vote.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman report progress and ask leave to sit again."
  MR. CAIRDsaid, the question which he wished to put to the right hon. Gentleman was whether he would introduce the Vote again on Monday in Committee of Supply. The Scotch Members generally were not present to support the Vote on a former occasion, believing that there was no necessity for their remaining, as the proposal had been adopted by the Government. It was impossible to draw a comparison between England and Scotland, because the institutions of England were Imperial. But it was quite possible to institute a comparison between Scotland and Ireland, and he found that while in income-tax, property-tax, and probate and legacy duties, Scotland contributed more than Ireland, Ireland received by Votes out of the Consolidated Fund £1,800,000 annually, to £400,000, or four times as much as Scotland. It was a proper object to establish an Industrial Museum the capital of Scotland, where the produce of the country could be seen, and a great injustice had been done to Scotland by the withdrawal of the Vote.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he hoped that they would not for a moment put Scotland in comparison with Ireland.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he rose to implore peace between Scotland and Ireland, and to assure Irish Members that the bellicose sentiments of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield) were not participated in by the generality of Members. At the same time he was bound to say in honour to Ireland that within the last three or four years they had imposed burdens before unknown on that country, and those burdens had been cheerfully borne. With regard to the Scotch Museum, he thought his hon. Friend (Mr. Caird) had done no more than his duty in bringing it before their attention, but he apprehended that it was totally impossible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to comply with the request
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  which had been made. Whether they were absolutely precluded by the rules of the House he could not say, but it would be utterly irregular to bring in the Vote again on Monday next. They could not expect to hear any more of the proposal this Session. He was very sorry it was not discussed the other night upon the merits. There was no opportunity for discussing it, because there was a natural inclination to close Committee of Supply. It was unfortunate, whatever the cause, that the Vote was withdrawn, as the feelings of Scotland were wounded by the proposal being thrown over, after it had received the sanction of successive Governments. Ireland, he believed, had a similar institution in Dublin. He hoped his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give an assurance that the question had not escaped the attention of the Government, and that, upon full consideration of the amount required, they were prepared to submit as early as possible a Vote to give effect to a design not only gratifying but eminently useful.
  MR. DE VEREsaid, he would deprecate comparisons between the burdens and contributions of different parts of the empire.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he should consider the matter simply on the merits, without entering upon comparisons, which were proverbially odious. The grant was actually moved, and an opportunity given to any hon. Member to state his opinions upon it. Some years ago ground in Edinburgh was purchased with a view to the erection of an Industrial Museum. During the war the Government did not think it desirable to propose any Vote for that purpose, but this year they did propose a Vote, and as the site had cost between £8,000 and £9,000, they did not think £40,000 an unreasonable sum. They proposed to take £10,000 this year, which would have given the means of completing a considerable portion of the building without any very heavy pressure on the finances. Representations were made by persons of weight and influence urging the Government to purchase land adjoining that which had been previously acquired, but the Government resisted the proposal, and adhered to the original design. When the matter came to be discussed in Committee of Supply, there seemed to be a rather strong impression that the Government were about to make large demands on the finances for assistance to

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  the East India Company. The feeling pervaded the House, and induced reluctance to vote anything not absolutely necessary. In deference to what seemed to be the all but universal opinion of the Committee, the Government withdrew the Vote, and he felt sure that if it had been pressed to a division a majority would have voted against it. He would take this opportunity of expressing his opinion that while he admitted the justice of many of the criticisms on the augmentation of the civil estimates, still that increase of expenditure, if not in almost every case, certainly in a majority of cases, was not made for any corrupt or profligate objects, or for the gratification of any personal or individual tastes, but for the purposes of general and public utility. Such, for example, was the Vote for a Museum in the city of Edinburgh. As had been suggested, the Government would feel it their duty at as early a period as convenient to repeat the proposition to the House, but he did not think any advantage would arise from attempting to bring forward more Votes in Committee of Supply during the present Session.
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid, he had opposed the Vote, simply because ho thought they ought to suspend all Votes not absolutely required with the very large expenditure which must be now anticipated.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he was not present when this grant was last before the House, otherwise he should have made an observation upon it. He believed it was intended and calculated to serve a very useful and important purpose—important, not only to Scotland, but to the whole country. Scotland had always shown herself ready to take advantage of the means available for the promotion of great public objects, as in the case of agricultural statistics, where both landlords and tenants had evinced the utmost willingness to do that which was only now beginning to be done partially in England. He hoped that the next time the Vote was proposed it would not be treated as a Scotch question.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Bill passed through Committee.
  House resumed. Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read 3° on Monday, at Twelve o'clock.

  CROWDED DWELLINGS PREVENTION BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that as he understood the object of the Bill, it was to declare that wherever two or more persons chose to reside together in a house or part of a house, and they were not within certain very limited degrees of consanguinity, their dwelling was to be treated as a common lodging-house, exposed to the visitation of inspectors, and brought within all the stringent and arbitrary clauses of the Act, for the regulation of lodging-houses. That appeared to him to be a great infraction of the liberties of the humbler classes, and, however benevolent the object might be it was their duty to take care that they were not carried away by their feelings to pass a law which would place the people entirely under the power and control of the Executive Officers of the Government, who were to regulate all their social affairs.
  MR. COWPERsaid, that words had been introduced into the Bill since it had come down from the Lords which would entirely obviate the objections taken by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets. The provisions of the measure would only apply to dwellings which would come under the designation of common lodging-houses. All that the Bill attempted to do with the Lodging-houses Act was to define the word "family," and how far it would extend in order to exempt a common lodging-house from the operation of the Act. So far as the operation of the common Lodging-house Acts was concerned, it had been found to be beneficial to the keepers of those houses as well as the lodgers. The right hon. Gentleman read some extracts from the Report of the Commissioner of Police, showing the wretchedly crowded state of some of the lower class of lodging-houses, and the scenes of profligacy and indecency which they presented, and as the present Bill was simply an Amendment in one very small respect of the existing Act, he hoped the House would consent to go into Committee on the Bill.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he would remind the House that it was expressly slated by the noble Lord at the head of the Government on the previous night that the Bills to be dealt with in the sitting that day would be those only which were unopposed.
  MR. COWPERsaid, under those circumstances he would postpone proceeding with the Bill until Monday.
  MR. RIDLEYsuggested that the Bill should be postponed altogether for the present

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  Session, inasmuch as otherwise it would be impossible to collect the opinion of the country on its probable operation before it passed into a law.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Committee deferred till Monday.
  House adjourned at Two o'clock.