Commons Sitting of 12 March 1855

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Ennis, John David Fitzgerald, esq.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Price's Indemnity.
2o Intramural Burials (Ireland).
Reported—Lunacy Regulation Act Amendment.

THE CREW OF THE "INVESTIGATOR"— QUESTION.
MR. FRENCHsaid, he begged to ask the hon. Member for Gloucester (Admiral Berkeley), if it was true that the crew of Her Majesty's ship Investigator, who, under the command of Captain M'Clure, accomplished the object for which so many expeditions have been sent from this country to the Arctic regions, namely, the discovery of the North-West passage, being ordered to abandon their vessel, leaving behind all their clothes and other property, have only received three pounds compensation per man.
ADMIRAL BERKELEYsaid, that the petty officers of the Investigator had received 3l., and the seamen 2l. 10 s., which was all that was allowed them by the rules of the service; the clothes with which they were fitted out having been supplied gratuitously.

THE JUDGE OF ASSIZE AT WEXFORD— QUESTION.
MR. MACARTNEYsaid, he would beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, whether it was a fact that Mr. Hughes, one of the Judges of Assize on the Leinster Circuit, when about to open Her Majesty's commission in the Crown Court at Wexford (the High Sheriff and grand jury being then in attendance), proceeded to canvass the electors of a northern county, although no vacancy in its representation had taken place, and whether any permission or instruction had been given to Mr. Hughes to do so, either by the Lord Lieutenant or

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the Lord Chancellor, previous to the arrival of a substitute to preside in the Crown Court at Wexford?
MR. HORSMANsaid, that on having received notice on this subject from the hon. Gentleman on Friday, he had sent to Ireland for the necessary information to enable him to answer it; and he was now able to state the circumstances, which were slightly different from the impression the hon. Gentleman had received of them. Mr. Hughes, owing to the illness of one of the Judges, was appointed to go the Leinster Circuit, but he was not the only Judge, there being two for the circuit. The commission was opened at Wexford on the 2nd of March, and Mr. Hughes did not leave on the 2nd while the grand jury was being charged; but having on the 1st of March received a letter, asking him to stand for the county of Cavan, he left on that day and went to the Lord Chancellor, and stated that, as he was anxious to be a candidate for Cavan, he wished that a substitute should be appointed in his place on the circuit. Before he left Wexford Mr. Hughes had arranged with Baron Greene that he should perform all the duties of the Judges, and do all the business, which was very light, as it began on the 2nd, and was all over on the 3rd March. A substitute for Mr. Hughes was provided, who joined the circuit at Waterford. He had asked a further question of the Lord Chancellor, to the effect whether the absence of Mr. Hughes had caused any public inconvenience. The Lord Chancellor had stated in reply that no complaint had reached him of any interruption of the business of the circuit, and that no inconvenience had been felt by the public. He should add that no pecuniary loss would accrue to the public, because, although Mr. Hughes was entitled to 400 l. for going the circuit, he had given that up on relinquishing the duty.

METROPOLITAN BRIDGES—QUESTION.
MR. OLIVEIRAsaid, he rose to ask the right hon. Baronet the First Commissioner of Works whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take any steps during the present Session of Parliament in reference to the Report of the Select Committee of last Session upon Metropolitan Bridges?
SIR WILLIAM MOLESWORTH,in reply, said, that the Board of Works did not possess any funds with which to execute the metropolitan improvements recommended by the Select Committee of last
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Session, nor was it the intention of the Government to propose to Parliament to provide any funds for this purpose out of the public purse. His right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Health (Sir B. Hall) intended, if possible, to introduce that evening a Bill for the better local government of the metropolis, which would contain a clause empowering the local government of the metropolis to provide funds for metropolitan improvements, and for the execution of works similar to those recommended by the Select Committee of last year.

ORDNANCE SURVEY OF SCOTLAND.
On the Report of the Committee of Supply on the Ordnance Estimates being
brought up, Resolution 1st,
LORD ELCHOsaid, he wished to call the attention of the House to the subject of the Ordnance survey of Scotland. He was aware the subject was a dull one, and not likely to interest those whose attention had not been specially called to it; but he, nevertheless, considered the question of our national survey as one of considerable importance. Great differences of opinion prevailed as to what that survey should be. It was at the close of the last century that the Ordnance survey of Great Britain commenced. The scale then adopted was one inch for a mile, which was considered sufficient for all purposes. The survey on that scale proceeded steadily from the south of England towards the north. The first departure from it was in consequence of the recommendation of a Committee of that House in 1824, which reported in favour of a map of Ireland on a six inch scale, the object of the survey being a general valuation of the property of that country, this recommendation of the Committee was adopted by the Government. The people of Scotland afterwards memorialised the Government for the same extension of the scale to the survey of their country. On the 1st of October, 1840, a Treasury minute was passed, which ordered that the survey of Scotland also should be on a scale of six inches to the mile; but, in consequence of the great dissatisfaction which prevailed in that country upon the subject, he, in 1851, moved for a Committee to inquire into the whole question, and which Committee finally reported in favour of abandoning the six-inch scale and returning to the one-inch scale. The Government of Lord John Russell adopted the recommendation of the Committee, and by a Treasury minute it was ordered that

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no other counties should be surveyed, except those in which the survey had already been begun. The Government of the Earl of Derby afterwards conceded the six-inch scale to the counties of Haddington and Fife; and thus the matter stood up to the time the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) became Chancellor of the Exchequer. No less than fifty-nine memorials had proceeded from public bodies in Scotland, all praying for an extension to them of the six-inch scale. The position, therefore, in which they had got in respect to this subject was, that either they must adhere to the rule laid down by the Government of Lord John Russell, and which had been departed from by the Government of the Earl of Derby—in which case they would give offence to the people of Scotland—or else they must adopt the six-inch scale, which had been condemned by the Committee appointed to consider the subject. Under these circumstances, there appeared only one course to be pursued, and that was to adopt a scale without reference either to six inches or to one inch. He himself ventured to recommend the adoption of a scale considerably larger than six inches, which would fulfil all the conditions mentioned in the Treasury minute to which he had referred, and which would be of use for all time. The scale he suggested was one of twenty-four inches to a mile. He had referred the matter to a very eminent engineer, Mr. Vignolles, and one of the Ordnance surveyors, Colonel Dawson—and the opinion which he (Lord Elcho) had expressed in favour of a large scale was confirmed by those gentlemen, but on the other hand it was opposed by the Ordnance, and by several officers of that department. Under these circumstances, it was thought the best course was to ascertain what were the opinions of practical men who thoroughly understood the question with reference to the point at issue. Accordingly, that able and indefatigable public servant, Sir Charles Trevelyan, wrote a circular addressed to members of counties, land agents, engineers, and various other parties, putting to them this question—whether, in the event of a larger scale being adopted for the survey of England, they were of opinion that that scale should be six inches or twenty-four inches, or, at all events, some other larger scale than six inches. He held in his hand a summary of the replies received to that circular. Of those replies 120 were in favour of the larger, and thirty-two in favour of the smaller scale. Subsequently
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Colonel Dawson suggested an intermediate or decimal scale of about twenty-five and one-third inches to the mile; and upon a similar course being taken with reference to that it was found that, while there were thirty-nine replies in favour of the twenty-four inch and sixty-two in favour of the twenty-six and two-thirds inch scale, there were seventy-nine in favour of the decimal scale. The whole correspondence relating to the decimal scale was submitted to Sir John Burgoyne, Mr. Blamire, and Mr. Rendle, three eminent engineers, and the Government, fortified by their approbation of that scale, published a Treasury minute, directing its adoption in the surveys of Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire, and providing that if the experiment should turn out favourably it should be applied to the whole of Scotland. The experiment had not yet been completed, and therefore the cost could not be ascertained; but from an estimate made by Colonel Jones, an officer of engineers, who had proceeded upon the assumption that the cultivated land should be surveyed on the large scale and the uncultivated on the one inch, which he (Lord Elcho) thought would be the best mode of proceeding, the cost would be 522,000 l., while the Estimate for the Ordnance map of six inches to the mile was 750,000 l. He thought it would be most advantageous to publish the larger map, as it would be most useful for all property, sanitary, and engineering purposes, and also for agricultural statistics. The demand would soon show whether the population desired to possess the map, and he believed the cost of production would be covered by the publication of a few copies. With respect to the system of contouring, he believed that the cost of that process was estimated at about 4l. per square mile, or something like 120,000 l. for the whole of Scotland; and he agreed with the Committee in the opinion at which they had arrived, that the process was not worth the money. He hoped that the Treasury would concur in this view, and would object to proceed with contouring. There would thus be a considerable saving effected; and by the system of running levels frequently along the watercourses, and at different points of elevation, all the advantages which were to be derived from contouring might be obtained at a much less cost. He trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would direct his attention to the subject, and that as soon as the experiments which were now being made should be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, he would issue a Treasury

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minute deciding finally upon this much-vexed question.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he feared the noble Lord was calling upon the House to incur a very large expenditure, and without very sufficient grounds. We had had in England maps made on a very large scale for the Tithe Commission, and the landed proprietors had paid for them. It was now asked that maps should be made on a scale which was of no use to the public, or worse than useless for practical purposes, and which the public would have to pay for. What had the taxpayers of this country to do with the landed estates of gentlemen in Scotland, that we should be called upon to pay for surveying them? As for the large scale, it had been tried to some extent in the Island of Lewis, and the map of one county would be so large, that it could hardly be got into any room of any gentleman's house. Another objection was, that if a map were made in which every hedge and gate should be marked out, it would be necessary to correct that map every year or two, because alterations were constantly going on in the country. No doubt, the engineers would tell us that, when they had to make a railroad or any other work, the one-inch scale was not sufficient, but let those who needed, for their own purposes, a larger map of any particular locality, procure it at their own expense.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he should be glad to know what was the difference of expense between the six-inch scale and the twenty-six and two-thirds inch scale? He did not suppose there was so much difference of cost between the six-inch and one-inch scales, because it would be necessary for a man to draw his sketch of the survey upon a scale as large as six inches to the mile at first, and it would be afterwards reduced for engraving. He thought a four-inch or six-inch scale quite sufficient for ordinary purposes, and then anybody who wanted a more detailed survey of his own estates might employ a man to enlarge the map.
LORD ELCHOsaid, that he had read to the House the estimate of Colonel Jones as to the large scale, and that of the Ordnance engineers with regard to the six-inch scale. According to Colonel Jones's estimate, the expense of mapping that portion of Scotland that was proposed to be done on the large scale was 522,000 l., and according to the estimate of the Ordnance officers, the expense of mapping the whole of Scotland on the six-inch scale
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would be 750,000 l., and on the one-inch scale 114,000 l.
MR. COWANsaid, that the cost to the public of a copy of the one-inch map for Scotland would be 3l. 10 s., while one of six inches would be not less than 310 l. A map of Scotland upon the one-inch scale would be thirty-six feet by twenty-one in size, while a six-inch map would occupy a space of 216 feet by 126, or more than three times the length of that part of the House in which they were assembled. He thought that the previous Government had been led away by one or two petitions, which had been got up in some mysterious manner in Scotland, and he trusted that the present Government would not sanction the expenditure of so large a sum as that which had been mentioned.
MR. RICHsaid, he hoped that, between doing justice to Scotland and Ireland, some consideration would be given to what was due to England. He must protest against this demand as extravagant, and he trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would resist the pressure which it was attempted to put upon him at a time when all the resources of the country were required to carry on the war.
MR. E. ELLICEsaid, Scotland had been nothing but a scene of experiment for the last half dozen years, and he was extremely glad the question had been brought before the House; for, unless they took it into their own hands, Scotland might wait until the present generation had passed by before it obtained a good and useful map adapted for all purposes. The Committee, after examining many witnesses, were unanimously of opinion that on the score of utility, economy, and public opinion, the one-inch scale was the best to adopt. Their Report was acted upon by the Treasury; but a change of Government afterwards took place, and an agitation was got up, they never knew by what means, in order to petition the Government to reverse the order of the Treasury, and to act contrary to the Report of the Committee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time, without taking a single step to ascertain how far the public of Scotland wished the alteration to be made, at once decided that the country should be surveyed on the six-inch scale. He hoped the House, however, would now arrive at some practical conclusion in regard to the scale upon which the map was to be prepared.
MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he considered that the House was indebted to his noble

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Friend (Lord Elcho) for giving hon. Gentlemen a convenient opportunity for expressing their opinions on a subject of very great importance—a subject with respect to which the manner in which it was conducted was not altogether creditable to their administrative system. Almost every step was taken at random and haphazard—sometimes a little forward and sometimes a little backward; but due consideration was never given to the immense extent to which they were about to commit themselves, nor was any deliberate calculation made of the cost to be entailed upon the public. The noble Lord the Member for Totness (Lord Seymour) might lay aside his fears and apprehensions as to anything being done during his (Mr. Gladstone's) tenure of office having a tendency to commit the House to any steps. When he came into office he found the question in a state in which it was impossible to continue. That step which was now complained of had been taken by the Government immediately preceding that to which he belonged, and, as it was supposed, in accordance with the wishes of Scotland; and after such a step had been taken, it was more difficult than at first sight would appear to refer all at once to the Report of the Select Committee. The question raised was a very large one, namely, whether they should prepare a map complete for all purposes, private as well as public, or fall back on the original or more contracted scale which was adopted in England, but was departed from in certain counties in Scotland, and throughout the whole of Ireland. It appeared to them that as the element of cost was the determining element in the case, the rational mode of proceeding was to enter on a course of experiments to such an extent as would enable them to lay before Parliament reliable data for the purpose of ascertaining the comparative cost of the different scales. That had been done, and the Votes of the last and present year were taken with the view of obtaining that knowledge, and placing it before Parliament as rapidly as possible. It was proposed that certain districts should experimentally be surveyed and engraved on the larger scale; but they did not think it safe to take that course, for after having conferred so considerable an advantage and privilege at the public charge upon certain districts, it would be impossible for them to take any other course than to proceed and make a survey over the entire country on the extended scale. That, however, was
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a question which would require the careful consideration of the House when the proper time arrived.
THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, in his opinion the twenty-five and one-third inch scale would be the most valuable and useful of the larger scales proposed, though the one-inch scale might be most available for ordinary purposes. There was one reason why he should himself be in favour of the twenty-five and one-third inch scale—that it would enable Scotland to carry out the great object of simplifying the conveyance of land by having a public map available for purposes of boundaries between private properties.
MR. DUNLOPsaid, he would entreat the House not to prejudge this matter before the materials for deciding upon it were before them. This was not a Scotch question alone, but one affecting the entire country. Within the last few days millions of money had been voted for warlike purposes without opposition; but now that an experiment for a great object of scientific and civil improvement was proposed, hon. Gentlemen started up and objected to it.
MR. H. BAILLIEsaid, he trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would adopt that plan which he thought would be most satisfactory both in Scotland and in England—namely, the one-inch scale, which he believed would be well adapted for all useful purposes.
COLONEL BOLDEROsaid, he would suggest the adoption of a uniform scale of two inches, which had been found perfectly satisfactory in those parts of England where it had been carried out.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, it was his intention, when the Resolution for the scientific branch was brought up, of moving the reduction of the estimate by the sum of 53,000 l., being the sum taken for Scotland, upon the understanding that the Government would bring in a supplemental estimate for the survey.
CAPTAIN ARCHDALLsaid, he wished to draw attention to the proposed encampment upon the Curragh of Kildare, and at the same time he hoped that it would be so managed as not to prejudice the training of race-horses now carried on; and also that it would not be allowed to interfere with the private rights which the holders of property adjacent had acquired by usage or custom.
MR. MONSELLsaid, that, in erecting barracks on the Curragh of Kildare, care would be taken not to interfere with the rights of property, or with the training of race-horses in that neighbourhood. He

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would take that opportunity of suggesting to the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) the propriety of agreeing to the Resolution for the scientific branch, because, upon whatever scale it was decided to make the map, the money asked for in the estimate would be required. He admitted, with his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), that this was a question in which the expenditure of millions of money might be involved, and it therefore required the deliberate decision of the House. That decision, however, could be given hereafter by the noble Lord moving a Resolution, pledging the House to the adoption of a certain scale.
MR. ELLICEsaid, he wished the Vote to be suspended until the House had some positive assurance from the Government. It was a scandal to the Government that Scotland should have been so long left without a map. He hoped that the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) would press that the Vote be diminished by 53,000 l.
MR. FERGUSsaid, that several counties in Scotland had been done on the six-inch scale, which the people of Scotland most desired. As to the Highlands, the population would not break their hearts though no map of the Highlands were made during the present generation.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he begged to ask if the hon. Gentleman would produce the papers to which he had on a former occasion referred as to the extent of additional barrack accommodation required? The Votes which the Government proposed for this purpose were large, Aldershot alone amounting altogether to 475,000 l., and the total expenditure would greatly exceed 1,000,000 l. Surely the House ought to have some details before it to justify such a serious expenditure.
MR. MONSELLsaid, there would be no objection to lay the information upon the table if the hon. Gentleman would move for it.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that an impression had gone abroad that the only breech-loading carbines submitted to the authorities had been those invented by an American and a Frenchman. He had himself understood the hon. Gentleman to say that others had been submitted, and he wished to know if his impression was correct. He was also desirous of asking if it was intended to change the 6-pounder gun of the Horse Artillery to a 9-pounder?
MR. MONSELLsaid, that 9-pounders had already been substituted for 6-pounders for the Horse Artillery in the Crimea. As
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to the other question of the hon. and gallant Member, what he had stated on a former evening was, that a large number of breech-loading carbines were sent in, carefully inspected and tried, and his own belief was, from all he had heard, that Mr. Sharpe's and M. Lenoir's were the best. No official decision had yet been arrived at, but he hoped in a very short time that that decision would be given, and steps immediately taken to provide the service with the arm.
MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he wished to know why so many 6-pounder guns had been shipped for the Crimea when their inferiority had been ascertained at the close of the last war.
MR. MONSELLsaid, the Ordnance acted upon the directions of the military authorities, whose business it was to decide on the calibre of the guns. He thought the hon. Member was incorrect in supposing a large number of 6-pounders had been sent to the Crimea. Only one 6-pounder battery was sent out, but it certainly was the prevailing opinion at the time that the Horse Artillery should have 6-pounder guns. Experience had led to a different conclusion, and 9-pounders had been substituted.
1st Resolution agreed to.
On the 2nd Resolution, 158,196 l. for scientific services, including the maps and serveys for Scotland,
LORD SEYMOURsaid, as he had intimated his intention to do, he would now move that the Resolution be reduced by the sum of 53,000 l., required for the latter purpose.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, with respect to the matter now before the House concerning the Ordnance survey, it seemed to him involved in very considerable doubt. He was informed that experiments were going forward in Ayrshire and in Dumfriesshire with regard to the large scale. These experiments were only to be made to a limited extent, and would be concluded in the month of July. He should think that no portion of the money now voted would be necessary for that purpose. The whole sum voted would not be sufficient for the execution of the map on the one-inch scale, and he should suggest to the House that it should be clearly understood that nothing more should be done regarding the large scale than completing the experiment which was now going forward, and which would be, as he had already stated, finished in July. The House could then consider and decide what course it would adopt.
LORD SEYMOUR: Then was the House to understand from the noble Lord that nothing would be done respecting the larger scale except finishing the experiment?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Nothing further shall be done until further arrangements are effected.
SIR JAMES ANDERSONsaid, he thought the people of Scotland had great and just reason to complain of the manner in which their country had been treated as to its survey.
MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he hoped, if the experiments were concluded in June, and the House were sitting, as it generally was till the beginning of August, that no delay would take place in bringing the matter to a final decision.
MR. E. ELLICEsaid, it was his opinion that nothing should be done on the larger scale, until the subject again came under discussion upon the Estimates next year.
LORD ELCHOsaid, he saw no reason why the House should not finally determine the question as soon as these experiments were fairly concluded, and, if possible, before the close of the present Session. He was astonished at the course taken by several Scotch Members in opposing the extended scale. Scotchmen generally knew what was to the advantage of their country, and they usually pulled together to secure it. The hon. Member for St. Andrew's rather pooh-poohed these memorials, but among the fifty-nine which had been presented from almost every county in Scotland in favour of the large scale, one was a memorial from the town council of St. Andrew's. It was well known to Scotch Members, though not perhaps so well known to others, that the hon. Member was a Highland proprietor, and the only bit of cultivated land he possessed was a small garden. He thought it rather selfish of the hon. Gentleman to advocate the small scale, to the prejudice of his Lowland friends, who had not the happiness to live in so picturesque and wild a part of the country. He hoped that, before the question came on for discussion, hon. Gentlemen would read the blue book, which contained every information that was required on the subject.
MR. BAILLIEsaid, he gave the noble Lord all due praise for his desire to promote an undertaking so useful as that of the survey of Scotland, but he at the same time thought the feeling of the House was so much against the great expense of sur-
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veying the whole of Scotland on the scale proposed, and seeing that it would only serve more immediately the interests of the landowners of Scotland, that he would suggest to the noble Lord not to press the matter further, especially when it appeared to be the general opinion that any survey on so large a scale ought to be at the expense of the gentleman whose property would be benefited by it.
MR. LOCKEsaid, the map on the larger scale might be a good thing, but it did not follow that it would be a good thing for the House to spend the public money upon it. He must deprecate any further experimenting upon this subject, the only effect of which had been to prevent the public having a map at all. The Ordnance authorities, after the sort of rebuke which the Committee had administered to them, had systematically attempted to thwart it, for they had been experimenting upon every scale except that which the Committee had recommended.
MR. JOHN MACGREGORsaid, he considered that there ought to be one uniform scale for the whole of Great Britain; and the inch scale was very nearly that of the great military surveys of France, Austria, and Prussia.
MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he must protest against the views advanced by the hon. Member for Inverness-shire (Mr. Baillie), and at the same time he would beg to express his entire concurrence in what has been stated by the Lord Advocate, and in the suggestions made by the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho), to whom Scotland owed a debt of gratitude for the zeal and the ability which he brought to bear on so truly important a subject.
THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he was sorry to hear hon. Gentlemen speak of the larger map as if it would be of no use except to the landowners. It might be quite true that the expense of executing the map might be greater than the benefit to be derived from it—that was a completely different question. For statistical and sanitary purposes a map on the large scale would be a national work of the greatest possible importance; and this not only as regarded Scotland, but likewise England and Ireland. He hoped that the experiment would be fairly tried, and that hon. Members would suspend their judgment until they saw the result.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Resolution agreed to.
On the Third Resolution,
COLONEL NORTHsaid, a circumstance had just come to his knowledge which induced him to ask a question of the hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance. It had very recently been stated in another place by the noble Lord the Minister of War, that those enormous Votes which a Committee of the House had lately passed for building barracks in different parts of the country, were not to be acted upon until a reorganisation of the Board of Ordnance was effected. He begged to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he could give the House any information on the subject?
MR. MONSELLsaid, he would endeavour to answer the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, though he begged to state that he had not had the opportunity of hearing the speech to which the hon. and gallant Member had referred; but he could understand that the noble Lord must have stated, in reference to those large works—the new barracks, which had been voted for so liberally—that their construction would not be commenced until the reorganisation of the Ordnance Department. He believed that reorganisation would take place in a very short time, and that there would be no delay in carrying out the works. He thought, however, it was the duty of the Government, even independently of the reorganisation of the Ordnance Department, to take into consideration the very strong feeling expressed by the House with respect to the mode of constructing the new barracks, and particularly to the establishing of day-rooms in them for the use of the soldiers. They would neglect their duty if they attempted to carry out those large Votes without paying due consideration to the suggestions that had been made in the course of the discussions in Committee.
Resolution agreed to.

THE COLONIAL DEPARTMENT.
On the Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I wish, Sir, to take this opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the present extraordinary state of the Colonial Department; and, in doing so, not only do I wish to address inquiries to Her Majesty's Government on the subject, but to call their attention to a state of the public business as connected with that department which
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is not only unusual and extremely unsatisfactory, but which also appears to me to be hardly decorous. Since I made some inquiries on this subject some time ago, questions have been put in another place upon the same subject, and the answers to those questions are so little satisfactory that I feel bound to renew the inquiries, and to ask for a reply from the noble Lord at the head of the Government. When, on a former occasion, I inquired of that noble Lord what were the prospects of a responsible Minister taking charge of the colonial affairs of this country, I was told that the absence of the noble Lord the Member for London would not be so long as I supposed; and I find that the other night, when a similar inquiry was made in another place, precisely the same words were used in reply. Now, I beg to remind the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) that neither the noble Lord who made that inquiry nor myself expressed or, indeed, entertained any supposition on that subject. We wanted to know the supposition of the noble Lord himself. We found the Colonial Department without any responsible Minister to transact the business of that department, and we wished to be informed by Her Majesty's Government how long this state of things was likely to continue. But part of the answer given to the inquiries in another place struck me as being so peculiar that I think it forms an additional reason for calling for some further explanation. If I am rightly informed, the noble Lord who replied to that question stated that it was not the intention of the noble Lord the Member for London, who is now at Vienna, to do more than settle the general principles of a treaty, and that he should not think it necessary to remain until all the details of that treaty were arranged. Now, it seems to me that that was a most extraordinary, and, I must also say, a most unsatisfactory statement. I certainly thought that the general principles of those negotiations had been already laid down. I should have thought that the general principles of any treaty to be now formed, or any negotiations to be entered into, were the simplest and easiest part of the duty of the noble Lord, and that the most important part of that which he had to decide upon—having been sent on a special mission of this kind—was to settle all those details which are so essential and important to the satisfactory arrangement of a treaty of this kind. I can only conclude from the statement to which I am

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referring that the noble Lord the Member for London finds himself so embarrassed by the two incompatible positions which he now fills that, after having left the colonial business in this country in a state of uncertainty, he is about to return to it without finishing the negotiations he has undertaken. My object, however, has not so much relation to the negotiations at Vienna as connection with the state of the colonial business in this country. Under all circumstances, I believe there never was a moment when it was of more importance that there should be a responsible and an able Minister at the head of that department than the present moment, when the Colonial Secretary is at Vienna conducting a negotiation. I believe such a state of things is not only, as I have said, most unusual, but that, in fact, it is without precedent. I am perfectly aware of the fact that Lord Castlereagh, during the time he was holding the office of Secretary of State, went to Vienna to conduct negotiations, but the House will remember that at that time Lord Castlereagh held the office of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and that the business on which he went to Vienna was closely connected with the department he conducted and the office he held; but I know no case similar to that which we now contemplate of the business of a great department, at a moment of peculiar interest and importance, left without any representative in Parliament, not even an Under Secretary of State, to answer an inquiry in this House, and having its Secretary of State engaged in the conduct of negotiations at Vienna. I am aware the right hon. Baronet opposite me (Sir G. Grey), who now holds the office of Secretary of State for the Home Department, has intimated that he would give his attention to colonial affairs. I do not wish to disparage the right hon. Baronet's well-known abilities, but I affirm that neither the right hon. Baronet nor any other man is competent to discharge, for any lengthened period, the duties of those two important departments together. I consider that the attempt to do so is to hold out a most false view of public affairs, by leading the country to suppose that one man can duly discharge them, especially at a moment like the present. I beg to remind the House of the threatening—I will not say alarming—intimation which, since the noble Lord accepted the seals of the Colonial
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Department, we have received from the Cape of Good Hope. I am informed, though I speak under correction, having no official knowledge, that the well-known chief Moshesh, one of the most powerful chiefs of South Africa, and one who is at the head of a powerful tribe, has already given cause for considerable uneasiness. I hear also, for the first time, that there is reason to fear not only the Kafir but the Fingo tribe, hitherto one of the tribes most devoted to British interests. It is too possible that the state of England at this moment, involved as the country is in a great European war, may have become known to the intelligent natives of Southern Africa, and may in some degree have contributed to the course they are supposed to have taken. The House will recollect that we have lately sent a new Governor to South Africa—a gentleman well known in other colonies, and who, no doubt, would he most attentive to his duties in South Africa; but still he has had no experience of the circumstances to which I have adverted, and this I say is another reason, and a strong one, why the exclusive attention of some Minister should be devoted to colonial affairs. Then again, what is the state of the colony of Victoria? In Victoria, if the accounts are true, we have had a proceeding which I can only speak of as an insurrection. Blood has been shed. There has been a struggle—a most anxious and exciting struggle. Between that mixed and peculiar population, which now fills the gold districts and Her Majesty's troops a collision has taken place, and although by the decision evinced by Sir Charles Hotham the disturbance has been put an end to, there remains the fact that the state of Victoria is a most critical one. This is not the only question of interest in Victoria. I again speak under correction, but, so far as I have been informed, I believe a question which has much agitated that district of late, is that of the admission of convicts. The Convict Prevention Bill is still an unsettled question, and there is a strong, and not an unnatural, feeling on the part of the colonists of Victoria with reference to the indiscriminate admission of a large number of convicts from Van Diemen's Land. This, then, is another ground for anxiety, and a most important reason why some Minister should be here to devote his exclusive attention to these serious affairs. I say also it is not satisfactory to have these Australian Constitution Bills hung

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up as they now are for an indefinite period, waiting the return of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) from Vienna. These Constitution Bills are part of a bargain entered into by the Government of Lord Derby, with which I had the honour of being connected, whereby certain concessions were made to the colonies, the most important of which was, that they should have the management of the land in their own hands, on condition of improving their constitution. The colonies have performed their part; they have sent home these Bills for altering the constitution, and two years have elapsed and yet nothing has been done on them. I have some doubt whether those Bills ought not to have been proceeded with last year, and I don't know what explanation the right hon. Baronet can give on that point; but two years have passed since the required concessions have been made, and I know, as I have said before, that gentlemen of great eminence in these colonies are now in England at much inconvenience waiting until the Bills pass; and when they call at the Colonial Office they are told that the whole matter must await the return of the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Lord J. Russell) from Vienna. Now, Sir, I have mentioned several important subjects involving questions of high State policy, and requiring the attention of a Minister of State; let me remind the House these are not all. I see before me hon. Members who have been connected with the Colonial Office, and who know the truth of what I say when I state that scarcely a day passes when there do not come despatches from every part of our colonial empire, some involving matters of high State policy, such as I have already adverted to, and other personal questions of local interest—questions of individual right and individual justice—and I do say that Her Majesty's Government ought to be in a position to give such matters attention. The colonies labour under sufficient disadvantage in being at so great a distance from this country, and I think that when they bring forward matters such as those to which I have adverted, they have a right to expect that there should be a Minister ready and willing to attend to them. It is altogether inconsistent with the usual course of public business in this country that there should be no Minister to attend to matters of great colonial importance when they are brought here; and I must say, that I think, when the country
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finds one great department of the State, involving interests of vast magnitude, to be thus neglected, that it will occasion feelings of great dissatisfaction. But consider the question in another light—what will be the effect upon the minds of the colonists? Will not they feel justly that this practical suspension of attention to their affairs, and this absence of the Colonial Minister, are in a great degree disrespectful to them? I think that it is natural that such should be the case, and I have reason to believe that it is so; because I know that that will be the light in which some of the most important colonies of the Crown will regard the present state of the Colonial Office, What is the moment when this neglect is exhibited? It is a time when the colonies have come forward and have evinced a most laudable desire to support the mother country in the war in which she is engaged. From one end of the colonial empire to the other assurances have been received by Her Majesty of loyal co-operation and devoted sympathy in the struggle in which this country is engaged; and there could not, therefore, have been a moment more unhappily chosen for taking a disrespectful step towards the colonial empire than the present. I have felt, Sir, it to be my duty to call the attention of the Government to this subject, and I trust that the noble Lord at the head of the Government will give some assurance with respect to it more distinct and satisfactory than he has yet done. We have been told in another place, that the noble Lord the Member for London is expected to return to this country about Easter. But that assurance has been given in a very vague and indefinite manner; and, looking at the nature of the negotiations in which the noble Lord is about to be engaged, I think it extremely improbable that he will be here so soon as Easter. But, even if he should, I contend that the delay which has already taken place, is one which ought not to have occurred. Unless we can obtain a distinct assurance upon this subject, I hope that Parliament will consider it to be its duty to interfere to put an end to this unsatisfactory state of things; but I trust that the First Lord of the Treasury will be able to hold out an assurance, that before long there will be at the head of the Colonial Department, some responsible Minister who can give his undivided attention to the important duties required of him.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I

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must entirely deny the assumption on which the right hon. Baronet opposite grounds his observations—namely, that colonial matters are neglected, or that any slight has been placed upon the important colonies of this country. The right hon. Baronet says there should be some person in Parliament responsible for what they have done, or have not done with regard to the colonies. Sir, there are persons in Parliament so responsible. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department and myself are responsible; and if the right hon. Baronet or any other hon. Member of this House thinks fit to bring forward any charge against the Government for neglect of colonial matters, we are perfectly ready to stand here in our places to justify our course, and to be responsible for the management of them to the country. The right hon. Baronet expressed a very natural curiosity to know what is the particular course which my noble Friend at Vienna is going to pursue in the negotiation with which he is charged—what he is to insist upon—how long is he to insist upon it—what he is to be satisfied with—when he is to come home—or if he is going to break off the negotiation or to conclude it. I am sorry I am not at liberty consistently with my public duty to gratify the very natural curiosity of the right hon. Baronet. [Sir J. PAKINGTON: I made no such inquiry.] The right hon. Baronet made something very like an inquiry. I can only say, Sir, from the communications we have received, that we do not anticipate that my noble Friend's stay in Vienna will be so protracted as the right hon. Baronet expects it to be. But really the way in which this question is put would lead one to think that never was there a case before in which an office was vacant or the holder of an office was absent. But the right hon. Baronet himself gave an instance of a case in which a Secretary of State was very long absent from this country, and although the matters which he had to deal with were connected with the department which he held, yet, allow me to say, that there was a vast number of other important affairs to be dealt with by the department at home, and though no minister was there, the officers of the Foreign Office did not follow Lord Castlereagh when he went to attend a congress at Vienna or at Paris. Does not the right hon. Baronet recollect the period when one individual held the offices of all the Secre-
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taries of State, and from the beginning of November to the end of December or the beginning of January, was the only responsible person accountable for all the offices? There was such a period, and I think the right hon. Baronet, on refreshing his memory, will find that he was not much disposed at that time to find fault with the arrangement. I deny that any inconvenience is sustained, or that colonial affairs are at all neglected. Any decision that is to be taken, will be taken on the responsibility of my right hon. Friend (Sir G. Grey), aided if necessary by the concurrence of his colleagues, and we stand here responsible for my noble Friend (Lord John Russell), and in his place, and perfectly ready to answer upon any matter in which the management of the Colonial Department may be questioned either by the right hon. Baronet or any other person in this House.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, he thought the question before the House was whether such a combination of offices as at present existed was advisable without absolute necessity. If the noble Lord had made out such a case of necessity no person could say anything, for necessity overrides all laws; but the noble Lord merely sought to shelve the question by saying that if the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Pakington) had any charge against the Government let it be brought forward. There was no charge made against the Government; the question was not put in the shape of a definite Motion, and could in no way embarrass the Government. If the Government could not recommend any person to Her Majesty to take this department, the question would be embarrassing; but they had no idea that the noble Viscount was reduced to such an extremity. He would support the right hon. Baronet if he pressed the question by a definite Motion, because he could not see that it would embarrass the Government. It would be small consolation to him if the present state of affairs shook the attachment of some of the Colonies, or caused the loss of others of them, that they should be able to impeach the noble Lord or to inflict condign punishment upon him. If the noble Lord could even be beheaded it would be little consolation to him (Mr. Adderley), or to the country, if the Colonial Empire of England was damaged. The present was a most critical period in colonial affairs, and was the most unfortunate that could have been chosen for a combination of offices. At the close

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of the last century, when Mr. Dundas was offered the War Office, it was observed by him that he had all work and no patronage. The Colonial Office was therefore thrown in, where there was no work, while, at the same time, it was full of patronage. But that was not the case in these days. The consequence of the junction of the War and the Colonial Departments was a state of such confusion in the office that it had been wittily described by Lord Derby as "the office at war with all the Colonies." As long as the injury produced by this arrangement was confined to the Colonies no alteration was made, but when it was brought home to ourselves by the breaking out of the war it was found necessary to separate the two offices. He was willing to allow that if ever the colonial sytem of England became what it ought to be, the work of the Colonial Office would be so far reduced as might even admit of its being added to the Home Department, but the Colonies had not yet arrived at that position of self-administration which he hoped they were destined soon to attain. They were only in a transition state at present, but the system of local self-government had been recognised, and when it should be fully carried out, there perhaps would no longer be any necessity for a separate Colonial Department. At the present moment constituent powers were being given to the principal Colonies, but agents who came over with Constitution Bills and Petitions from those Colonies found the Colonial Office shut up. The Constitution Bills of the Australian Colonies were now in the hands of the Government, and it was a matter of paramount necessity that they should pass without delay. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would not wait until negotiations at Vienna, which had nothing to do with them, were completed before deciding what course should be taken with respect to them. He believed that the riots which had taken place at Victoria, and which had produced the lamentable result of the first Australian blood having been drawn by English troops, might have been avoided if there had been no delay in establishing the Constitutions of that Colony; but at all events, if the Colony had enjoyed self-government the responsibility of the measure which had led to the rioting would have rested with the Colonial Legislature, and this country would in no way have been implicated in the matter. Again, there was
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some apprehension of an outbreak in South Africa. Now, if that Colony had been entrusted with the power of local self-government it would, of course, have taken measures for its own self-defence, and this country need not have been under any anxiety about the threatened war. The cause of all the Kafir wars had been the destruction of the local system of self-defence in that Colony. There were other omissions which showed the necessity for the Colonial Minister being at his post. Had the noble Lord been at home, he was sure Canada would not have remained so long without receiving the formal thanks both of Parliament and of the Sovereign for the loyal and patriotic spirit which the Colony had evinced towards the mother country in connection with the war, nor would the offers which parties residing in that Colony had made to raise regiments at their own expense to serve in the Crimea have long remained not only unaccepted, but even unanswered. It might be a matter of sentiment, but it was a matter of the most important consideration, that the Colonies were deeply attached to the Sovereign of this country; that feeling, however, was a sensitive feeling; they were proud of being connected with this country; they were proud of owing allegiance to Her Majesty; but pride is of a sensitive character; the slightest breath that was cast upon this feeling of honourable attachment, calculated to imply neglect or contempt, might convert it into a feeling of hostility and alienation. He was afraid some such construction might be put upon the absence of the present Colonial Minister, and rejoiced therefore to find that the subject had been brought under the notice of the House.
SIR GEORGE GREY: I do not think, Sir, the question raised by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich is whether an indispensable necessity existed for my noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) to accept the seals of the Colonial Department while he was on his way to act as the Plenipotentiary of this country at Vienna; nor do I think that a question is raised on the present occasion as to the permanent union of the Colonial Office with another great department of State, but the question is whether such a degree of public inconvenience arises from the arrangement made for the conduct of the business of the Colonial Department, during the temporary absence of my noble Friend at Vienna, as to call for the interference of

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this House. Well, then, Sir, that being the question, I am perfectly ready to state that I do not feel myself competent to undertake permanently, or for any length of time, the duties of the two offices which I now virtually fill, and I shall be sincerely rejoiced when I am released from the additional responsibility which has been thrown upon me by the return of my noble Friend from Vienna. When my noble Friend had intimated his willingness to accept the seals of the Colonial Department it appeared to me, so far from that acceptance being looked upon as an insult by the Colonies, that the colonists would hail it with satisfaction; and when he asked me to act for him during the few weeks which would probably elapse before his return, I said that, although I felt the additional responsibility which would be thrown upon me, I thought it was a duty owed to the country not to shrink front giving any assistance in my power to an arrangement which I believed to be conducive to the interests of the Colonies. When, however, I hear the hon. Member for North Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley) state to the House that the whole of the colonial business is at a stand—that, in fact, the office is shut up, and there is no one there to attend to business at all—I must take leave to contradict that statement, and, still more, to say that I do not believe that during the short time the present arrangement has existed any practical inconvenience whatever has resulted. As to the case of such an arrangement being permanent, or, indeed, long protracted, I admit the force of the argument of the hon. Gentleman, but I trust that the absence of my noble Friend will not be of any long duration. If the arrangement had been of a permanent character there might have been some force in the observations which have been addressed to the House; but being only intended to last for a few weeks, I cannot help thinking that they are quite uncalled for. I do not think it advisable now to enter into the subjects of discussion which the hon. Gentleman who last addressed us touched upon, either respecting transportation or with reference to the offer from Canada to send a regiment to the Crimea, I can only say that I do not think that even the ingenuity of the hon. Gentleman can in any way connect that circumstance with the arrangement now existing in the Colonial Office. I will, however, briefly advert to the four cases in which it has been stated that inconvenience
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has arisen front the present arrangement. First, with regard to the Cape of Good Hope. The letters which have been received from the Governor give only too much reason to apprehend that the peace which had been established with the Kafir tribes was one which could not be considered permanent, unless measures were taken to consolidate the arrangements which had been made, and to provide efficiently for the safety of the Colony, and it therefore became my duty to press upon the Colonial Government the importance of inviting the attention of the Legislature at the Cape to those measures which appeared to be indispensable towards completing the defence of the Colony. Yesterday week despatches were received from the Governor at the Cape stating that he had received intelligence which rendered it incumbent upon hint at once to go to the frontier. That intelligence was no doubt, of an alarming character, but, at the same time, it was doubtful and conflicting, inasmuch as persons who possessed equally good opportunities of acquiring information give a different version of the state of feeling among the Kafir tribes. It is, however, impossible to deny that the state of the Colony is critical. It appears, however, that the Governor was on the point of proceeding to the frontier, but he did not think that it would be necessary for him to use the power which he possessed of drawing a regiment from the Mauritius, or that he should be obliged to call upon the home Government for any additional force. I am at present stating the opinion of the Governor, but at the same time it is impossible to say that events will not occur to change that opinion. The Government have had the despatch of the Governor before them, and they have taken it without delay into consideration, and have adopted those measures which appeared to be necessary for strengthening the hands of the Governor. I do not know what my noble Friend would have done had he not gone to Vienna, but I do not think that he could have done more than has been done, nor am I prepared to admit that, acting as I have acted, with the concurrence of my colleagues, any danger or inconvenience has arisen to the public service. The next point to which come is the state of the Colony of Victoria, and the disturbances alleged to have taken place there. I can only say that the Government have as yet received no official information on the subject of those

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disturbances. I was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Pakington), upon information so imperfect as that which has reached this country, and knowing the patriotic feeling which existed in the colonies, should apply to those disturbances the epithet of "insurrection." I believe, and I judge only from the information which has appeared in the public prints, that the tumult was suppressed in about twenty minutes, not, however, unfortunately, without some loss of life, and I trust that future accounts will show that the affair was not so serious as has been represented; but, however that may be, I ask what, if my noble Friend had been in England, could he have done under the circumstances when the same account which informs us of the tumult also informs us that it has been suppressed, and that peace and order have been restored throughout the district? With regard to the supposed Newfoundland difficulty, I believe that all great questions relating to that Colony had been settled before I gave up the seals of the Colonial Office, and I am not aware that any question remained, except, indeed, one to which the right hon. Baronet has referred. The deputation to which he alluded were the bearers of an application on the part of the late Assembly of Newfoundland, for the removal of the Governor of that Colony, who was appointed by the right hon. Gentleman in 1852. I am bound to say that I do not think that the removal of a Governor of a colony is a question upon which a Secretary of State ought to announce any decision at a private interview. With regard to the Australian Constitution Bills, I had hoped before the present time to be able to submit to the House certain measures upon the subject of those Bills, but the case has not been quite correctly stated. The right hon. Baronet said that those Bills were passed two years ago, and he complained that they were still lying in the Colonial Office.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he wished to explain that he had not stated that the Bills were passed two years ago, but what he said was, that the arrangements which had been made two years ago had led to these Bills.
SIR GEORGE GREY: It is quite true that the despatch which led to those Bills was written two years ago, but let us see if there is any real foundation for the charge of delay brought against the Colonial Office. Three Bills were passed—one relating to Victoria, another to New
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South Wales, and another to South Australia. One of those Bills, and that not the least important of them—the one relating to Victoria—was only received in the month of May last. All these Bills required the most careful investigation, and they were referred to the legal advisers of the Crown, whose Report was not received until after the prorogation of Parliament, so that it was impossible that any steps could have been taken in the matter last Session. The right hon. Gentleman does not appear rightly to apprehend the course which has been adopted. The real state of the case is, that the colonies understood that they were invited by the right hon. Gentleman himself not to confine themselves to the powers conferred upon them by the Act of 1850, but to go beyond those powers, and to pass Bills which, professing to alter Imperial Acts, could not receive the assent of the Crown unless with the previous consent of Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to four Bills, and I may state at once that, in the case of the three Colonies to which I have alluded, I think that the course which was adopted of not confining them to the powers conferred upon them by the Act of 1850, but of permitting them to go beyond those powers, was most inconvenient. In the case of Van Diemen's Land, where no Act had yet been passed, I pointed out the inconvenience of the course which had been adopted in those Colonies, and I suggested that the Legislature of that Colony should confine themselves within the powers conferred on them by the Act of 1850, and since I relinquished the seals of the Colonial Office I have received from the Governor of Van Diemen's Land a despatch transmitting an Act which has been passed by the inhabitants of that Colony in accordance with my suggestion, which he tells me will, in his opinion, work well. In this case, therefore, the assent of the Crown may be given without the consent of Parliament, and the result will be that the Act which was last passed will probably come first into operation. When I said that I hoped to have been able to introduce Bills upon these subjects, I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that it is not an easy thing to introduce a Bill of importance, and to secure the attention of the House to it, at a period when it is engaged in voting the means for carrying on the war, and I do not think that any of the nights appropriated to Government business this Session could have been spared

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for the consideration of the measures to which I have referred. I can also state that I have been in communication with my noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) on the subject of these Bills, and that he has devoted great attention to the subject. I hope that the result of this discussion will be to remove any impression that the Colonies are being neglected; and I can only add that, although the present arrangement could not, in my opinion, be justified as a permanent one, still, for a brief period, no inconvenience will be felt in consequence of it.
MR. LOWEsaid, he was desirous of offering a few observations on a remark made by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, who had said that he had entered into a compact with the Australian colonies. The right hon. Baronet had not said what that compact was, but he gave the House to understand that the form of constitution to be submitted to the House was in a great measure the result of a compact which he had entered into with the Colonies when he was Colonial Secretary. Now, he (Mr. Lowe) considered that it would be most injurious if the compact which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have entered into should be carried out; and when the proper time came for so doing he believed that he could show the House conclusive reasons why such a compact should not be sanctioned. At present he would confine himself to explaining why he thought that the right hon. Gentleman should not have entered into the compact to which he had referred. In 1850 it had been the pleasure of the House, contrary to his (Mr. Lowe's) opinion, to delegate to the Australian Colonies, unversed as three out of four were in the ordinary functions of self-government, the powers of a Constituent Assembly, the power of forming their own constitution. He objected to this, because he did not think that the Colonies were at that time sufficiently advanced to effectually carry out the powers so delegated, and the result had confirmed this impression. The policy of the Act of 1850 was this—the House washed its hands of the question of the colonial constitutions, and left to the Legislature of the Colony the power of choosing that which it might deem best, preserving to Her Majesty, but not to that House, the power of assenting to, or of disapproving thereof. He thought that, after this Act, the attitude of that House towards the colonial Legislatures on the subject of their future constitutions
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ought to have been one of rigid impartiality; it ought to have abstained from expressing any wish with reference to the constitution of the Colony; because, in the first place, by the expression of such a wish, or by the use of any influence to carry it into effect, they were contravening the spirit of the Act of Parliament; and, secondly, they were by so doing throwing upon the Government of this country a responsibility which ought to devolve on the colonial Legislature. Unhappily, the right hon. Member for Droitwich did not take this view of the case, but in 1852 as Secretary of State for the Colonies, he addressed a despatch to the Governor General of Australia, in which he stated that it was his opinion that the Upper House in the Legislature ought to be nominated by the Crown. He would not now discuss the propriety of such a nomination, as the question was one which Parliament in 1850 had delegated to the Colonies, but it appeared to him (Mr. Lowe) the right hon. Gentleman had misconstrued the Act of 1850, and mistaken his duty as Colonial Minister, when he offered to give the Colonial Legislatures absolute dominion over the waste lands of the Colonies if they would consent to the Upper House being nominated by the Crown. He would beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman and the House what possible interest they could have in preventing the Colonial Legislatures from adopting a form of government which seemed to them best suited to their local circumstances, and why should they give their dominion over their waste lands to induce them to do so? What would the right hon. Gentleman have effected even if he succeeded in fixing on the necks of the colonists that which was detested by the majority—namely, a nominated Upper House? Why, the result would be that, instead of the unpopularity of such a step devolving on the colonial Legislature, it would devolve upon the Home Government, and the policy of the Act of 1850, which was to relieve the Government of this country from such a responsibility, would be evaded. He, for one, protested against the House of Commons or the Government being in any way bound by what had been done by the right hon. Gentleman. He would not at present anticipate discussion on this question, but would enter fully into it whenever it should be submitted for their consideration; but, in the meantime, he begged the House not to consider the

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question prejudged or prejudiced by any step which had been taken by the right hon. Gentleman. He also begged the right hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) who for a time would hold the seals of the Colonial Office to avoid the example set him by his predecessor, and to deal with this question in a spirit of impartiality, and, whether his opinions were in favour of a nominated or elected Upper House, not to let that weigh with him as a grain of dust, but to look at the will of the colonists and to abide by it if he thought it expressed by the decision of the Legislature; but if, on the other hand, he should feel satisfied that the Legislature had been induced, either by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, or by other circumstances, to come to a decision disapproved by the majority of the colonists, then he ought not to allow himself to be led away by such a decision. These Colonies, under the inducements held out to them by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, and not availing themselves of the power given in the Act of 1850, had sent to this country long Acts, in which they had given to themselves powers hitherto not possessed by them; had dealt with the most difficult questions of the Royal prerogative and the relations of the Colonies to the mother country; had given full retiring salaries to public officers, who, in pursuance of the wish expressed by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, had voted for a nominated Upper House; and had also given pledges and guarantees to persons having very dubious titles to vast quantities of the public land. The House would not, if the request of the Legislatures were complied with, have to go through these Bills clause by clause, but would, by a short Bill, have to confirm them; therefore, the moderate request which would be made to the House would amount to this—it would, because the Colonial Legislature had, in excess of its powers, passed a Bill of enormous length and perplexity, be asked to renounce its right of dealing with the many subjects it contained, and to give validity to them all in a lump. He earnestly, therefore, entreated the Government and the House not to be persuaded by the clamour or declamation of any persons who might be sent by the Colonies to so far forget their duty and dignity as to delegate to others their powers and responsibilities by consenting to pass in a lump seventy or eighty clauses of these Acts, merely because they had been passed by
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the Colonial Legislature. The right hon. Member for Droitwich talked of contracts between this Government and the Colonies. He begged that his (Mr. Lowe's) experience in these matters might have some weight, and entreated the right hon. Gentleman to avoid all contracts between the Imperial Government and the Colonies. If he thought that there were matters over which the Colony ought to have authority let him concede them—if it were deemed advisable, as he (Mr. Lowe) thought it was, that the colonies should have dominion over the waste lands, let it be given them; but it should not be given as conditional on what the Colonies should do. The right hon. Member should avoid making this House a party to maintaining the Legislature against the opinion of the majority of the Colonists, and still less should he involve it in giving pledges of retiring salaries or guarantees of permanent possession to persons holding in some cases 1,000,000 acres of land a-piece. He could assure the House that, unless it acted with the greatest circumspection in this matter, unless it fully asserted its own dignity, unless it avoided involving itself in any guarantees, and unless it kept clear of interference with the Colonies, it would be sowing the seeds of endless confusion, bickering, and disturbance, which would drive them ultimately to draw the sword against their fellow-subjects, or oblige them altogether to surrender their Australian Colonies.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he hoped he might be allowed to express his regret, that the hon. Gentleman did not hear more distinctly what he had said upon this subject. The hon. Member had entirely misunderstood not only his intentions, but the expressions which he had written. When the proper time arrived, he hoped he would be able to give a clear version of his acts as Colonial Minister, which could not under any circumstances warrant the construction put upon them by the hon. Member.
MR. JOHN MACGREGORsaid, he very much objected to the interests of the Colonies being neglected to suit the convenience of any Government. He believed the negotiations at Vienna would be so long, so tedious, so uncertain and contradictory, from day to day, that the most extraordinary difficulties would attend the conferences. That was well understood in France, where the Government did not entertain the opinion that they would lead

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to a speedy peace. Under these circumstances, the absence of the Colonial Secretary at Vienna showed either that there was a great dearth of men in the party with which the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) was connected, and from which he had formed his Government, or that there was a determination that the great offices of State should be filled by no other persons than those who had occupied them for the last twenty or twenty-five years. He must deny that it was impossible for the colonial Governments, as they were now constituted, to fulfil the duties expected of them by the colonists, and furthermore he apprehended that the present state of things was attended with considerable embarrassment and peril. His experience of the Canadians induced him to believe that they would be ready to conclude that they were now treated with the same contumely and insult which had led to the separation of the old American colonies. No motives of convenience and no Cabinet arrangements could justify any such neglect of the colonies as was evinced by the present arrangements of the Administration.
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he held that the present was an anomalous and extraordinary situation, resulting from the peculiar exigencies of a crisis almost unprecedented, but he thought the experience of the noble Lord the Member for London peculiarly qualified him for the management of our colonial empire. He hoped that an idea so mischievous as that of a return to the former system of transportation would never find a place in the breast of any English statesman. That system offered a premium on crime in this country, whilst it was odious and despicable to the colonists. He was afraid the noble Lord would find that the ticket-of-leave system could not be persevered in; and if it were, it would produce a complete change in the manners and customs of this country and the rules of its Government.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS—ETON.
MR. EWARTsaid, he would only for a very short time detain the House, if they would allow him an opportunity of doing justice to one of the greatest institutions of this country, by making a statement not without its interest to the country in general. The other night the state of our public schools was under consideration. It was felt at the most extensive of those schools, Eton, that justice had not been
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done to amendments which had been there accomplished, and, therefore, he now felt it due to that ancient foundation, where he had the happiness and honour to have been educated, briefly to recapitulate those amendments which had been made. The classics alone were formerly taught there. There were now added seven mathematical masters, forming a part of the regular system of the school. Facilities were given for military students by instruction in fortification. Ancient and modern history formed a part of the terminal examinations, as well as of periodical compositions. Modern languages (though they did not form a part of the system of education) were encouraged as objects of study, by frequent prizes. The scholars who went from Eton to King's College, Cambridge, underwent a thorough previous examination; the elections were entirely free; and all extensive library, containing 7,000 volumes, had been opened for the self-instruction of the school. He (Mr. Ewart), as an old Etonian, felt gratified at these unquestionable improvements. He only hoped they would be carried further, and he thanked the House for giving him an opportunity of doing justice to the efforts of an ancient foundation to which he was attached by deep and undiminished feelings of reverence and affection.
The House then resolved itself into it Committee of Supply.

SUPPLY—COMMISSARIAT ESTIMATES.
(1) 2,351,199 l., Commissariat.
MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, that in moving the estimate for the Commissariat Service for the year 1855–56 it would not be necessary for him to detain the Committee for more than a few moments, but some explanation would be expected from him with regard to these Estimates, because the total amount of this Vote, although inconsiderable as compared with the large sums which had recently been under the consideration of the Committee, showed a large increase upon the sum voted the preceding year. The amount voted for Commissariat service last year was 600,000 l.; the Committee would now be asked to vote four times that amount, 2,400,000 l. The fact was that the sum of 600,000 l. represented merely the Commissariat charge for that portion of our army which was in the Colonies, and that item was very much the same as last year. There had been a slight reduction in the establishment of officers in the

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colonies, but this was more than counter-balanced by the increased price of provisions for the supply of the troops there. In some colonies, as New Zealand, this increased cost had led to the necessity of discontinuing the stoppages in aid, made from the pay of the troops. A similar sum of 600,000 l. was required for the Commissariat service of our army at home. At this time last year those troops were fed in a different manner to that in which they were now supplied. The soldiers in the United Kingdom formerly paid for their own provisions, provided these provisions did not exceed 6d. the ration a-day; but where a ration cost the soldier more than 4½d., it left him an amount of pay insufficient to enable him to buy his breakfast and evening meal, and an arrangement was consequently made, by which the Government fixed the stoppage to be taken from the pay of the soldier at 4½d. So long as the soldier was liable to pay 6d. for his ration, the Government had no particular interest to enter into contracts for him; but, as soon as the stoppage from his pay was fixed at 4½d., it became the duty of the Government to attend to the supply, and to see that fair market prices were charged for the meat; and as the Commissariat Department superintended that business for the Colonies, it was thought proper that the same department should be intrusted with this duty at home. The duty of feeding the troops in the United Kingdom, therefore, now devolved upon the Commissariat. The number of the regular army in this country was 40,000, and of the Militia 65,000, and the cost of provisions for them was about 500,000 l. The remainder of the Vote, 1,200,000 l., represented the cost for the army in the Crimea. The whole sum of 2,400,000 l. was divided into several parts, the first of which was the cost of the Commissariat division of the War Department, and the pay of the officers and clerks of the Commissariat, as well as of the persons employed under them in the different colonies, and, in short, wherever we had troops to be fed. The officers of the Commissariat branch of the War Department were few in number, and, considering that it had had an accession to its business by having charge of the feeding of the troops in the United Kingdom, and also by having had heavy duties thrown upon it connected with the army in the East, this division of the office was by no means in excess. With regard to the
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Commissariat officers and clerks abroad, the items in Votes 1 and 2, described as arising at the seat of war, alone required notice. The total increase in the two Votes for pay of Commissariat officers, clerks, and persons under them, was 109,000 l., of which 91,000 l. was due for the expenses of those officers employed at the seat of war. There were 101 Commissariat officers in the Crimea, with 225 storekeepers and other subordinates connected with them, making a total of 326 persons employed out there by the Commissariat branch. No class of public functionaries were better paid than the Commissariat officers; but they were required to be very trustworthy persons, a large discretion being unavoidably reposed in them connected with the disbursement of the public money. Vote 4 was for the transport service. The transport service to be performed by the Commissariat in the colonies would be the same for the coming year as it was for the last; but a very large sum—238,250 l.—was taken in the present Estimates for the transport service at the seat of war. This service having broken down last winter while in the hands of the Commissariat, a corps had recently been organised for the express purpose of undertaking the duty. Colonel M'Murdo, the head of the corps, had left England, and every effort was being made to purchase draught animals for his service in different parts of the Mediterranean, as well as to send out as quickly as possible the persons who were hired in this country to be formed into this transport corps. A large sum was, nevertheless, taken in addition for the transport service to be performed by the Commissariat, the reason being that the item was introduced prior to the decision being arrived at for forming a special corps to discharge this duty. No doubt a considerable portion of the sum would be saved; but it could not be omitted from the Estimates altogether, because the Commissariat would still have business to transact connected with the inland transport at Constantinople, Smyrna, and different ports of the Black Sea. Moreover, the persons employed in constructing the railway from Balaklava to the camp would be paid out of this Vote. The establishment at work upon the railroad, at the rates of pay now allowed to the men, would cost about 50,000 l. for the whole year; and, although the special duty for which they left this country might be completed in much less time than he had named, it was still possible that the ser-

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vices of the engineers and labourers might afterwards be found useful in other quarters. The head of the Commissariat in the Crimea wished a waggon-train to be raised from Ireland before he was aware of the intention to form a special transport corps, and a considerable number of persons had left this country who, until they were handed over to Colonel M'Murdo to act under his orders, would also have their pay defrayed from this Vote. Vote 5, included 23,000 l. for losses by negotiation of bills in connection with the Commissariat Department, 20,000 i. representing the loss on Commissariat transactions at Hong Kong. This large loss was occasioned chiefly by the difference in exchangeable value between the dollar and the rupee, but gains were constantly accruing from the same cause, which were regularly paid into the Exchequer. The only coin current at Hong Kong, for instance, was the dollar, and when bills were drawn there they were cashed in rupees, the value of which when paid to the soldier was only 1s. 10 d. each, whereas the charge to the Government under arrangement with the East Inda Company was 2s., causing a loss of 2d. per rupee. This was entirely a profit and loss transaction, and the present vote was taken for the losses incurred during a period of several years. Vote 6 included the cost of provisioning the troops in the United Kingdom and at the seat of war. The Government had estimated the cost of provisioning about 40,000 regular soldiers at home, and 65,000 militia, and had stated the sum requisite for that purpose in the different columns of the Estimates. With regard to the troops at the seat of war, a great addition had been made in the rations issued to them. The regulated ration had only been 1lb. of meat and 1lb. of biscuit per day, but the present daily ration issued to the soldier, and issued, he believed, with great regularity—the great defect having existed in the conveyance between the store and the camp—was 1lb. of salt meat, or 1¼lb. of fresh meat, 1⅓lb. of biscuits, 1oz. of coffee, 1¾oz. of sugar, 2oz. of rice, and 1–32nd part of a gallon of rum. The next Vote amounted to 20,000 l. The collection of large bodies of the militia in particular localities, where they would have to be provisioned, would enhance the prices of articles of consumption in the surrounding neighbourhoods; and but for this Vote, which was intended to compensate the contractors for the loss they might thus
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sustain, the contracts for supplying the men with food could not be fulfilled. The remaing Votes were for the non-effective service—34,000 l.—and included half-pay of Commissariat officers, pensions to their widows, and compassionate allowances.
SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he thought that, as the present was the first occasion on which these Estimates had been framed under the new arrangement, that was the best opportunity for making any observations on the transfer of the Commissariat business to the department of the Secretary of State for War. The business hitherto carried on by the Commissariat and the Treasury was of two kinds—one really military and the other purely banking and financial. No doubt every item of expenditure which was strictly military ought to be under the superintendence of the Minister of War, but he was afraid that the effect of the minute by which the Commissariat had been transferred from the Treasury to the War Department, would be to place the banking and strictly financial business of the Commissariat in the hands of the Secretary for War. It would be a great misfortune at the present moment to give that Minister any single thing to do which could be done equally well by somebody else, and which there was no inherent necessity for him to do; and, moreover, there was no particular reason why that functionary should be a good judge of such matters as banking and finance. In the Colonies, too, the Commissariat had much business to transact—such, for instance, as conducting the expenditure necessary for the convict establishments—which had no reference whatever to military matters, but which, under the new arrangement, would have to pass through the hands of the War Minister instead of being referred directly to the Treasury. He was afraid, therefore, that if this minute was carried into operation as it at present stood, the effect would be to introduce great confusion into the public accounts. It must be remembered that since the war great alterations had been made in the mode of keeping the Commissariat accounts in the Paymaster General's Office and also in the Audit Office, and he very much doubted whether the arrangements for checking the public accounts in time of peace would be sufficient for the large expenditure required in a time of war. Great difficulties and confusion would arise, and Parliament would cease to have that control over the

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expenditure which it at present possessed. He would suggest, therefore, that a Commission should be appointed to consider whether some arrangement could not be devised by which, while the whole of the military expenditure was transferred to the War Department, the Treasury might still retain a superintendence over the civil part of the Commissariat accounts. The thing was done very well at the Admiralty, and might be done at the War Department with proper care.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that this Estimate would bring the amount of the Votes for military purposes during the ensuing year up to very nearly 40,000,000 l. He was very sorry he had not urged the propriety of referring the Estimates to a Select Committee, though of course it was now too late to make such a Motion. As the case stood, they were voting immense sums for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance Estimates, entirely in the dark, without any means of judging whether these demands were really necessary or not. He did not altogether differ from some of the conclusions of the right hon. Baronet who had just spoken, but he must say he thought it would be much better to consolidate military offices of different kinds under one guidance than to keep them apart, for then there would be no means of combining operations or of checking expenditure. Of course the Secretary for War would have a financial department under him; but he would be the sole person responsible to Parliament, and that was what they wanted. He was surprised to see 280,000 l. for transport service in the present Estimate, after having voted between 5,000,000 l. and 6,000,000 l.> before for that purpose. Facts of the most astounding character had come to light in the evidence already given before the Sebastopol Committee. From the statements of the witnesses, it appeared that Captain Christie, the captain of the port, had kept one of the largest steamers employed in the transport service in port for four months, merely to act as a lodging for himself.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, he must object to reference being made in debate to the proceedings of a Select Committee whilst still sitting.
MR. CHAIRMANsaid, the hon. Member for Lambeth was not in order.
MR. WILLIAMSsaid, he would bow to the decision of the Chair, but he wished to know why the price of rations had been
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reduced from 6d. to 4½d. per diem? He presumed it must be to benefit the soldier. He did not think that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the War Department had satisfactorily explained why so large a sum of money was taken for transports when they had already voted so large an amount for the establishment of the land transport corps. In conclusion, he must complain of the want of such information as would enable the Committee to form a satisfactory judgment with respect to the propriety of the various items included in the Estimates. No efficient check would ever be placed upon our expenditure until the various Estimates were submitted to Select Committees. He believed that much unnecessary expenditure had been incurred for want of such a check.
MR. WILSONsaid, the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Baring) had referred to the transfer of the Commissariat from the Treasury to the War Department. The right hon. Baronet must be well aware that the duties of the Commissariat officers were of a very varied character and connected with all departments of the Government; they had to perform duties for the military, the naval, and the civil departments. Their duties were both financial and administrative, and they combined the functions of bankers and merchants. Their accounts came home to the Audit Office; they were there adjusted, and the various items placed to the charge of the different departments. There was a large independent fund, under the control of the Commissariat, called the Commissariat Chest Fund, amounting to 1,200,000 l., by means of which all their operations were carried on. An annual account of the fund was laid before Parliament, and it was the duty of the Treasury to see that it suffered no increase or diminution. The management of that fund would still be kept in the hands of the Treasury, but each department would be responsible for the expenditure of the sums voted for their several purposes; that was the only arrangement that could be made.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, that the object of the Government should be to consolidate under one head all the departments which were military ones; but not to load the purely military departments with matters which did not properly belong to them. That, he apprehended, was his right hon. Friend's (Sir F. Baring's) view of the subject. Now, he did not think that this

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object had been satisfactorily attained by the arrangement which had been adopted by the Government. He feared that the Treasury would not, under the present system, retain the proper control which they should have over the large fund referred to by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury, while, on the other hand, embarrassing duties would be thrown upon the War Department. If any confusion should arise from these arrangements, he must protest against that House being in any degree made liable for it. The Treasury had taken six months to effect the separation of the various departments, and he (Lord Seymour) must confess that their proceedings in this particular case were not very satisfactory. The arrangement which had been effected tended rather to increase than diminish any difficulty which had formerly existed. Complaints had been made upon every side of the working of the Commissariat Department; and yet, notwithstanding those complaints, that was the department which hon. Members were desirous of seeing copied in the administration of the army. There was no promotion by purchase or by seniority in the Commissariat; but a man entered the service after undergoing an examination, and then underwent one or two years' probationary service. Promotion was given, not by seniority, but by merit, and therefore the Commissariat met in every respect the requirements of hon. Members; but, notwithstanding all these advantages, the Commissariat Department had failed more than any other. He observed in the Vote a sum of 282,000 l. for the land and inland water transport service; and it appeared that in that Estimate was included the sum required for the railway at Balaklava. He regretted that the expenditure connected with the railway had been given in a separate item. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of the Government was, as to the necessity for securing to the troops a more frequent and constant supply of fresh meat, or, at all events, giving them vegetables when it was unavoidable that they should have salt meat. This was a very important matter in connection with the health of the troops.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he observed that 600,000 l. and odd was taken for the Commissariat expenses last year, while for the present year 2,393,000 l. was demanded, and he wished to know whether the sum of 600,000 l. and odd paid the
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whole expense last year, or whether there was then an excess of expenditure, for defraying which money was to be applied from the Vote of the present year? When the present Votes were passed the House would have voted about 39,000,000 l. for war purposes, and some explanation ought to be given of the mode in which it was proposed to provide for the proper distribution of such vast sums. He also thought, that the Under Secretary for War should explain the way in which the vast masses of provisions had gone, or were intended to go to their destination. There was a conviction on the public mind that a number of conflicting authorities were engaged when a ship was to be sent off with Commissariat stores. Was it true that under the old system the ammunition was put on board by the Ordnance Department, the drugs by the Medical Department, and the eatables and drinkables by the Treasury? Could the Under Secretary for War make it clear to the Committee that a shipload of provisions would arrive at its destination in proper order? The Government had sent out 21,000 tons of provisions and no end of fuel, and yet the soldiers had been forced to eat their rations raw—the fact being that those vast stores had never been properly distributed. The hon. Gentleman ought at least to show that something had been done to prevent a recurrence of those terrific blunders. When the goods were put on board the transports, some one ought to be put with them to be responsible for their safe delivery. As it was it appeared to him to be a mere chance if the stores ever reached their destination. All those circumstances to which he had adverted seemed to point to a want of arrangement in detail.
MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, that the difficulties which had arisen in connection with the transport of provisions and stores to the East were not so much in the part of the journey by sea as in that from Balaklava to the camp. The transport by sea was under the superintendence of the Admiralty, who had just established a Transport Board for the management of this service, and for facilitating its satisfactory conduct. He thought that a great deal of the confusion complained of in the loading, despatch, and unloading of the sea transports had arisen from their cargoes being contributed by various branches of the Government. Matters would be very much simplified by the loading of each ship being exclusively under one department,

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and that, too, the one which furnished its whole cargo.
MR. WILSONsaid, that, with reference to the observations of the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby), the expenses of the Commissariat for the year 1854–5 would not be completely defrayed by the Vote of 650,000 l. taken last year. The extra expenditure would come out of the vote of credit of 3,000,000 l. voted by the House last year; an account of which would, in due time, be laid before the House. The experience which had been obtained by the Government in the course of the last campaign had enabled the Government to frame an Estimate which they expected would cover the whole Commissariat expenditure for the present year. The Treasury would still retain the same check which they possessed before over the Commissariat expenditure.
MR. LAINGsaid, he objected to the unsatisfactory form of the accounts; some sort of detail should be given. He found one vote of over 1,500,000 l. for provisions, forage, fuel, and light. The number of men to be provisioned for that, in each locality, should be stated. If such a statement was given every year they would be able to compare the cost per man at any station with the corresponding localities, and with the cost at the same place in previous years. They would thus have the best possible check on the expenditure. The cost of the principal items in each locality, as beef, bread, &c., ought also to be stated. He wished likewise to call the attention of the Government to the important question of provisioning the troops by contract; in all cases where large numbers of men were collected together in private enterprises, it was found most advisable to contract for the supply of their provisions. All large shipowners now contracted for the supplying of their crews, and the same system was adopted in emigrant ships. Several most respectable firms were engaged in the trade, and if the Government had placed the supply of the troops in their hands, he would venture to assert there would have been no deficiency of fresh meat in the Crimea. One of the firms he referred to had a large establishment at Galatz, for the purpose of purchasing cattle in the Danubian Principalities, and could easily have supplied the army. He thought this matter deserved the most careful consideration, and he would suggest that after the Estimates were passed, it should be referred to a Committee of business men
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upstairs to determine how far the contract system could be adopted. He had no doubt it would be found to work well and economically. With regard to the rations, he thought that too much salt meat was issued; if a remedy was not applied the most fatal consequences would result in the hot weather. He would suggest that tea should be served out instead of coffee; the latter, being a stimulant, was not suited for localities where diarrhœa and dysentery prevailed. He would also suggest that as large a quantity of vegetables as possible should be sent out. A mode had lately been adopted of compressing them, which rendered their transport very easy. The neighbouring countries could also furnish a large supply of oranges and other fruits, which would be very useful for the troops.
MR. BAILLIEsaid, he wished to know whether any explanation had been given to the House why the army had for so long a time been rationed almost exclusively on salt meat? Any amount of fresh provisions might have readily, with the means of transport which we possessed, been obtained from Sinope, Asia Minor, and other ports.
MR. WILSONsaid, that ample arrangements were made for a supply of fresh provisions from the coast of Asia Minor, and why it should have failed so much of late he was unable to state; but he saw from accounts in the public papers that the difficulty of transport was very great, and the difficulty of feeding cattle far greater. It also appeared that great numbers of the cattle had died. With regard to the contract system there could be but one opinion, that in every possible shape and form in which that system could be brought to bear it should be adopted. Competition by open contracts was supported by all their experience, whether the end to be attained was economy or efficiency. He admitted the principle most fully, and as far as it could be carried out it had been carried out. At the Commissariat stations throughout the world, nothing was purchased by private contract or bargain, but everything by public contract; and so rigid were the rules of the service, that when the accounts were sent in to the Audit Board they had to be accompanied by the advertisements in the newspapers to show that the transactions were made public, and also the tenders themselves, to prove that the lowest tender had been accepted. How the principle could be extended further by rationing the army at

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so much per head he was not prepared to say; that was a most important point, and it was one well worthy the consideration of the Government.
MR. PEACOCKEsaid, he wished to know what was the precise position of the Treasury clerks who had been attached to the Commissariat Department in the East, and whether they were to form a permanent portion of the latter branch of the public service? There was another point to which he was anxious to advert for a moment. They had been told that the troops were to be supplied with fresh meat only once or twice a week. Now, he was sure that the country would receive that intelligence with regret. He had been informed that fresh preserved meat could be supplied to any amount at a cost of not more than from 2d. to 3d. per lb. beyond that of salt meat, and he had no doubt but that the public would readily submit to that increased charge. With respect to the remarks which had been made regarding coffee, he believed every medical man was of opinion that the very best species of food that could be given to men threatened with scurvy was cocoa.
MR. WILSONsaid, that in consequence of the pressure of business, it had been found necessary to employ a number of Treasury clerks temporarily in the Commissariat Department, but it was intended that the Commissariat service should be entirely distinct from the Treasury. One gentleman connected with the Treasury, Mr. Blackwood, who had been selected to proceed to the Crimea in the Commissariat Department, had discharged his duties in a manner which had elicited high encomiums from those who were acquainted with his arrangements.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he believed the army would gain a great deal by the transfer of the Commissariat from the Treasury to the Minister of War. Last year when the expedition to the East had been undertaken he had been led to apprehend that the business of the Commissariat would be greatly mismanaged, from the fact that it was to be intrusted to the same gentleman, Sir Charles Trevelyan, to whom had been committed the duty of presiding over the supply of provisions in Ireland during the recent famine in that country, and that apprehension had since been completely realised. He found that the same reckless waste of money, the same outrageous audacity, which had mark-
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ed the administration of the funds appropriated to the relief of Irish distress, and the same wretched confusion, had prevailed in the two cases, and the consequence had been the destruction in Ireland of 2,000,000 of the population, and in the East the destruction of our army. There was no soldier who would not congratulate himself on his escape from that baneful influence. The hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War had spoken of the space between Balaklava and Sebastopol as if it had been the source of all the failure of our Commissariat system in the East; but it should be remembered that at Varna, where there had been no such obstacle to be overcome, great deficiencies in the provisioning of the army had likewise been experienced. He had heard an anecdote which would afford a curious illustration of the mode in which the business of the expedition was managed. In the Jason, on its departure from Balaklava, there had been a number of sick on board, but there had been no medicine for them and no dietary; and yet a friend of his in the ship at the time had observed that the doctor appeared to keep as regular accounts as he would have done in the best supplied hospital on shore. On his questioning that gentleman as to the real nature of the unnecessary labour which he thus seemed to assume, he had been told by him that "he prescribed every day the articles which he would give if he had been supplied with them, and he also prescribed the dietary he should order if it could be obtained." The articles, however, had no actual existence, and yet the entries of the doctor would, perhaps, be produced on some future occasion in proof of the ample amount of medicine and comforts with which his patients had been supplied. Among the Estimates he found a sum of 238,000 l. for the inland transport service, and he wished to know what was the nature of the charge which that sum was to defray? It could not be the cost merely of constructing the railway, for he took it for granted that that cost could not amount to more than 100,000 l., if it should even reach so high a sum. There was another Vote of 743,000 l. for the rations of the troops, from which there was to be a deduction of 209,000 l., which he supposed would be charged to the soldiers. He was anxious to know how much of that deduction was to fall on the troops in the Crimea, and whether any portion of it would be imposed

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for the unroasted and unground coffee with which they had been supplied. He should also be glad to know whether the soldiers would have to pay the cost of the transport of the articles which had been forwarded to them from different parts of the country; and he was further desirous of being informed whether the hospital stoppages would be made in the case of men suffering from disease in the same way as in the case of men suffering from wounds. The Government were at present establishing a land transport corps; he rejoiced at that circumstance, and he believed that that step should have been taken when they had first entered on the expedition. They had an example which ought to have guided them in that matter. In the year 1826, when the expedition to Portugal had been undertaken by Mr. Canning, a transport service had been organised for its use by the Duke of Wellington, and between 5,000 and 6,000 men had been employed in that service. That valuable precedent, however, had, unhappily, been disregarded last year.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he considered the observations of the Secretary to the Treasury required explanation. He understood the hon. Gentleman to say that the contract system was to be universally applied, even to the army in the East. The system might do very well in this country, with its large mercantile population, but would fail if they attempted to make contracts at Varna, at Constantinople, or in Asia Minor. The Armenian or Jew who took the contract might disappear, and there would be no possibility of enforcing the penalty. He thought a good deal of the misfortunes which had occurred during the last six months might be traced to the contract system, and he wished to know whether in the purchases made in the East, the Commissariat had been required by the Treasury up to December last to proceed upon that system?
MR. J. L. RICARDOsaid, he doubted very much whether the system of contract, as the Secretary to the Treasury termed it, or the system of tender, as he termed it, was the best, even in this country. Large companies usually added a very important proviso to their advertisements —that the lowest tender would not be accepted. That was not the custom in the case of the Government, and they had seen many contracts, such as the contracts for the clothing of the army and for the
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provisions of the navy, carried out in the worst possible manner. He believed the most respectable houses would not tender for contracts with the Government, because they would not compete with men who were willing to name the very lowest price, with the intention of furnishing a very inferior article. The hon. Member for Wick (Mr. Laing) suggested sending out tea to the troops, and he thought the worst thing the Government could do, if they adopted that suggestion, would be to ask for tenders, which would have the effect of immediately running up the price. They had much better go to such a house as Travers's, and say they wanted so many thousand pounds of tea at a certain price. He believed a firm of that standing would undertake to furnish what was wanted to those who wanted it, and they might be sure to have the very best article. If the Government had made a contract with a respectable house they would not have had the soles of the boots coming off in the trenches in the manner which had been so often described. Another advantage was, that if the Government dealt with proper parties there would be no necessity for examination of the goods furnished, or for another contract to convey them to the place where they were wanted. He hoped the Treasury would not be misled by the traditions of times when great peculations prevailed, not only among contractors, but among high officials. That could not possibly happen now, and therefore it was worth while to consider whether they could not adopt a better system than that of tender.
MR. WILSONsaid, his observations had no reference to the army in the East, and hon. Members would at once see the great difference between an army in the field and forty or fifty commissariat stations all over the world, where the number of troops was stated and stationary, and the contractors were amenable to the laws of the colony. His observations referred only to those establishments, and he did not mean to imply that the army in the East was to be fed by contract, because it required little consideration to perceive that such a mode would be most inefficient and unsatisfactory. The hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent (Mr. J. L. Ricardo) differed from the noble Lord the Member for Totness (Lord Seymour) because the noble Lord approved the contract system in highly civilised communities; and as

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the hon. Member for Wick (Mr. Laing) justly observed, they had practical experience of it in the conduct of railway companies, who not only performed their works, but received a large portion of their supplies, by contract. It was very easy to point out blots in any course they might pursue. Every system was in some respects defective; but what would the country think if all these naval and commissariat purchases were managed by public officers dealing with private individuals without the check of publicity? There would be innumerable complaints and suspicions, and, perhaps, sometimes well-grounded suspicions. If there was nothing wrong, it would be impossible to satisfy the public; and, though he admitted the contract system should be conducted with great care, to see that the goods delivered were not of inferior quality, he did not understand how a system of private bargain would prevent improper practices.
VISCOUNT EBRINGTONsaid, that suspicions, complaints, and fearful results, had already followed the system of accepting the lowest tender. He particularly alluded to the intrenching tools, which, from the time of the Peninsular war until now, were always singularly bad. The same might be said of the shoes and clothing supplied on that principle. We had been too much swayed by a false economy in these matters, forgetting that everything depended on the quality of the articles supplied. This question of supplies was not to be disposed of by a few phrases about contracts or no contracts. He wished to corroborate what had fallen from the hon. Member for Wick with regard to the importance of vegetables in checking scurvy. When he was at the Poor Law Board, during the failure of the potato crops, it was found that farinaceous food, even with fresh meat, without a supply of vegetables, produced scurvy in some of the workhouses, and that was no question of salt meat. So that even if preserved fresh meats were supplied to the troops, care should be taken to keep up the supply of vegetables.
LORD LOVAINEsaid, he must congratulate the country on the Commissariat service being transferred to the War Department. He considered that the system of appointing the Commissariat from civilians alone was not the best, and he would recommend the plan pursued in the
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Indian army—namely, that large numbers of the Commissariat officers should be selected from the army itself. He thought the subject worthy the consideration of the Government.
MR. ROCHEsaid, he must maintain that the system of contract and the acceptance of the lowest tenders was the most advisable, and would be found to answer best, provided there was a proper system of inspection. If any other plan than taking the lowest tenders were to be adopted, it would at once lead to an impression that contracts were only to be obtained from the Government by indirect means and influences, and Members of Parliament would be besieged by persons endeavouring to make them use their political or personal influence to obtain contracts; and the effect would be that all confidence in the Executive would be destroyed.
COLONEL BOLDEROsaid, the Committee would remember that on a former occasion he asked a question of the Secretary of the Treasury respecting certain cargoes of porter which had been sent from this country, and after having arrived at Constantinople were sent back again in consequence of there being no officer appointed to receive them there. The hon. Gentleman did not at the time answer the question; but on the 26th of last month he took the opportunity of doing so, and stated that in one case a vessel was sent to Malta, but when it arrived the troops had left that place, and that vessel was subsequently sent on to Varna; another vessel had, in the same way, after having been first sent to Constantinople, been sent to Varna, and subsequently to the Crimea; another vessel landed her cargo at Scutari, where it was used; and the fourth of those vessels carried her cargo to Varna, and it was consumed there. The hon. Gentleman also said that there was no foundation for the rumour that any action for nonperformance of contract was pending against the Government, although, of course, the claims made by the contractors for the additional length of voyage were under examination. This was the answer of the hon. Gentleman as reported in the Times of the 27th of February, and which, he believed, was quite correct. Now, what were the facts? With regard to the first vessel the answer of the hon. Gentleman was correct; but the Government had to pay demurrage to the amount of 1,935 l. He would pass over the second vessel for

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the moment. The third vessel was loaded in London in the month of June last, and she was discharged on the 14th of December at Scutari, for which the Government had demurrage to pay. That vessel never went to the Crimea at all. The fourth vessel was discharged at Scutari, for which demurrage was also paid. With regard to the second vessel (the Jane Cockerell), which was of 387 tons, and engaged at 25 s. per month per ton, she left England in March last, and at the beginning of December was still at Constantinople with her cargo on board. He had seen the brokers of these four ships, and had ascertained from them the day on which they started, the day on which they broke bulk, and the day on which they returned. It was obvious, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman had misinformed the House when he said that all the four vessels had broken bulk. On a previous occasion he (Colonel Boldero) also stated that there was a claim made for demurrage which was disputed by the Government. The amount claimed was only small, about 120 i. or 130 l. The contractor had had a correspondence with the Treasury for several months, and they refused to pay him. Then, with regard to the supply of porter, none had been sent out to the Crimea since July last, for it appeared in the evidence before the Sebastopol Committee on Friday that the chaplain, who was then examined, never saw any, even in the hospital; and he saw by the evidence of a distinguished officer that the Guards suffered more than any other regiment, because they could not get their usual beverage—porter; the "navvies" had remonstrated from the same cause, and Government, he believed, were now sending out a supply for them. He thought, if it were considered necessary to send a supply to civilians, our fighting men ought not to be neglected. The East India Company's troops had received the most essential benefit from a good supply of porter; it was a national beverage, and, without pretending to a chemical knowledge of its composition, he believed it to be conducive to health. He should, therefore, like to know why the Government had set their face against sending it out? Two other ships had been sent out by philanthropic persons with porter of which nothing had been heard, and he wished to know how it had been disposed of?
MR. WILSONsaid, he was sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman did not intentionally
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wish to misrepresent him. The question he put was, whether any porter had been sent out to Constantinople, and, in consequence of no one being there to receive it, it had been returned; and whether an action had been brought for demurrage in consequence. He (Mr. Wilson) promised to inquire into the matter, and on a subsequent occasion informed the hon. and gallant Gentleman that nothing of the kind had taken place, but at the same time he did say that demurrage bad been claimed for detention of ships, or in some instances for prolongation of voyages. He believed some 110 l. had been claimed. He was not aware what had been done in the matter, but would make inquiries. With regard to one of the ships which the hon. and gallant Gentleman said had gone to the Crimea, he (Mr. Wilson) stated that one had gone to the Belbek to supply porter, but had been ordered back to Scutari; probably that was the one which the hon. and gallant Gentleman thought had gone to Constantinople. He did not believe that any cargo of porter was detained at Constantinople, but he would make inquiries. With regard to the supply of porter to the troops in the Crimea, it must be remembered that porter formed no part of the rations, but had only been sent out and placed at the disposal of the Commissariat to sell to the men at the cheapest possible rate. He admitted that the supply of porter to the East India Company's troops had proved an excellent substitute for spirits; and, having been instrumental in making the change, he was glad to hear that the hon. and gallant Gentleman approved it.
MR. A. STAFFORDsaid, that the answer of the Secretary of the Treasury was like all other answers received from that bench. Everything was admitted. Some matters were referred to other departments, and inquiries were to be made with regard to others. In this case the hon. Gentleman admitted that no considerable quantity of porter had gone out, and that there had been a charge for demurrage. He did not consider that any reference to the evidence taken before the Committee upstairs was necessary, for, as the inquiry went on, each day showed a more astounding revelation than the preceding, and proved that the departments were totally incompetent to perform the most ordinary transactions. The noble Lord the Member for Totness (Lord Sey-

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mour) said he wished the charge for the railway at Sebastopol to be kept a separate charge, but he despaired of seeing anything kept as a separate charge in the Crimea, for the accounts there were in such a state of confusion that the soldiers who came home invalided were unable to receive the pay that was due to them, so that, if they obtained a furlough, they had no money to pay the expenses of their journeys to see their families unless private charity intervened. This was the third time he had called attention to this hardship, and he should be delighted if the Under Secretary of War were able to contradict it. If this statement could not be contradicted, he would ask the War Office to violate routine a little, and let the poor wounded soldier have so much of his own money as would enable him to visit his family. All eulogies of the valour of the soldier would pass for less than nothing so long as the War Office refused him this reasonable request. He found, too, that the food supplied to the troops on their return home was unequal and of the worst kind. He had known invalids ordered home from the Crimea compelled on their voyage to eat salt pork that was rancid and biscuits swarming with maggots. This was a disgraceful part of a disgraceful system, and he would ask the Under Secretary of War to have it remedied, and see that these brave men were not persecuted by the Commissariat up to the moment of their return to this country. It was desirable, also, that some specific statement of the Government arrangements relative to the hospitals of the East, should be laid before the House. On the bringing up of the Report, he should ask the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) to specify the arrangements for the hospitals at Smyrna, Rhodes, and Abydos. Last November, when he was at Smyrna, he wrote to the War Office to say that the French were establishing an auxiliary hospital there, and suggesting that a similar establishment should be formed for English soldiers. Good official reasons, no doubt, were found for rejecting that proposal, but now that Smyrna became unhealthy the Government had commenced an hospital. The Government had neglected the matter during the months from November to February, and now in March, when the hot weather was about to set in, and all the unhealthiness of the climate was about to develope itself, the Government had determined to open an hospital. He trusted
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the hon. Gentleman would be prepared to show on what grounds this hospital had been opened at this period of the year, and on what authority it was to be proved that the atmosphere would not soon become dangerous to health and life.
GENERAL PEELsaid, he had not been over-sanguine as to the results of the appointment of the Committee upstairs, but he had hoped that hon. Members would wait until they made their Report. He heard garbled statements of the evidence made day after day to the House. Now, would it not be far better to wait until the Committee had reported the evidence? The Committee were examining with great care into the subject, and he hoped that the House would have confidence in their Committee.
MR. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, he trusted that no hon. Member would be precluded by the fact that an inquiry was going on before a Committee from stating to the House important and pressing matters which had immediate practical results. The appointment of the Committee would do great harm if it had any such result.
Vote agreed to; as was also—
(2) 42,120 l., Half Pay, &c.
House resumed.

PRICE'S INDEMNITY BILL.
THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he begged to move for leave to bring in a Bill to release William Philip Price, Esq., M.P., from any disability he may have incurred by reason of a contract for sending wooden houses to the army in the Crimea. Persons standing in the position of contractors with the Government were by law disqualified from sitting in that House, or from voting at the election of its Members. In the case of Mr. Price, however, no benefit had resulted from the contract, and it had proceeded entirely on public grounds. There was nothing in his position, therefore, contrary to the spirit of the Act of Parliament.
MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he wished to know if there was any precedent for the course which the hon. and learned Gentleman proposed to take?
THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, that there were a great number of cases in which the House had interfered to relieve individuals from disabilities, which were not in reality contrary to the spirit of the law.
Leave given.
Bill read 1o.
The House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.