Commons Sitting of 8 February 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Education; Mines (Ireland).

LONDON AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
MR. HILDYARDsaid, it was his intention to move that the Bill be postponed for a month. This was not a mere squabble between railway companies; the question involved was one which concerned that House, and before he had finished his observations he should appeal to the House to say whether it was so or not. It happened that the district which, in the West of England, had Exeter as its apex, and Salisbury and Dorchester as its base, was at this moment less supplied with railway accommodation than any other portion of the kingdom, whether regarding its local or national requirements. But this was not the fault of Parliament. In the year 1848 Parliament sanctioned the construction of a railway by a local company, assisted by the company whose Bill was now before the House, and the latter company was authorised to raise a considerable sum of money towards carrying the under

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taking out; and a large portion of that money had, he believed, been raised, though not one farthing had yet been employed for effecting the purposes to which the sanction of Parliament was then given. But what he more particularly desired to call the special attention of the House to was that which happened in the year 1853. In that year the Great Western and Bristol and Exeter Companies proposed to construct a line of railway running out of the Wilts, Somerset, and Weymouth Railway at a place called Maiden Newton, passing through Axminster to Exeter, and that Bill was opposed by the South-Western Company, whose traffic it would have materially prejudiced had it passed into a law. They did not contend that there was no necessity for such a railway; their plea was that the line proposed was not, as regarded either local or national requirements, the proper line; and to prove this position they called before the Committee on the Bill the heads of the principal military and naval departments of the country, who all concurred in stating that the line was not a right line, and that a better one was capable of being laid down. The Committee, in their Report to the House, stated that they were reduced by this evidence to great perplexity. They felt, to use their own terms. the urgent want of railway accommodation in the district, so far as the local interests were concerned, and yet that the evidence which had been given by the public authorities was such as they could not possibly disregard. They, therefore, asked the South Western Company what guarantee they would give them that if the Committee threw out the Bill before them, they would construct that other line which the company contended was the right line to be laid down? At that time the chairman of the South Western Company was his hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. F. Scott); and his hon. Friend went before the Committee, being authorised so to do by a unanimous vote of a meeting of the shareholders, and distinctly pledged himself that if the Bill before the Committee were thrown out, the South Western Company would next year introduce a Bill and carry into effect the line which they asserted was the right line. He also wrote a letter by the same authority, to the Committee; that letter the Committee made a part of their Report, and it was accordingly placed upon the records of that House. As soon as the South Western Company, however,
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had by these means got rid of the other Bill, they called their shareholders together, and—he did not say unanimously, for, happily, there was some shame remaining among them—but by a majority determined not to redeem the pledge they had thus solemnly given; and the consequence was that this important locality had been deprived of the accommodation which it would unquestionably have obtained but for the interposition of the South Western Company with these false pretences. Unhappily up to this time Parliament had not been able to get at them; for it could not compel a company to introduce a Bill, even though that company had pledged themselves to do so. But generally speaking there was a day of retribution for railway companies as well as for other people; and the day of retribution had at last arrived. This same company were at length driven to come to Parliament with a Bill for another object. He begged it to be distinctly understood, however, that he had no wish to obstruct that measure. On the contrary, it was a Bill which would further the very object he had in view—namely, the extension of the line in the direction in which the South Western Company had in 1853 pledged themselves to carry it. For this reason he did not oppose the second reading, but merely proposed that it should be adjourned for a month, because within that period the company would assemble together at its annual meeting, when the directors would have the opportunity of receiving authority from the shareholders to redeem their pledge. If, when the company assembled, they gave their chairman, who was a Member of that House, distinct authority to say, that if the Bill proceeded, a clause should be introduced so worded as to compel them to redeem the pledge they had given, then no Member of that House would support the Bill more readily than he (Mr. Hildyard) would do. If, however, they declined to do that, it would then be for the House to consider what it was most becoming that they should do. If it were once admitted that railway companies might come before Parliament, and influence the decisions of its Committees by the most solemn engagements, having it, nevertheless, in reserve to throw over those engagements so soon as they had obtained the object for which they were given, all he could say was that Parliament would be suffering itself to be treated in a manner that was alike unsuitable to its own dignity, and contrary to the interests committed to its

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care. He was happy to say that the Chairman who, in the name of the company, gave the pledge to which he had referred, when he found that he was not in a condition to perform it, instantly, as became a man of honour, resigned his place at the board.
MR. G. BUTTseconded the Amendment.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon this day month."
Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
MR. CHAPLINsaid, as the mover of the second reading of the Bill now under consideration, he would beg to state that he was not chairman of the South Western Company when the transactions referred to took place in 1853. He had no doubt that his predecessor was authorised to give a pledge to the Committee; but when the time came for fulfilling it the shareholders thought they would not be justified, under the adverse circumstances which then existed, in adhering to the promise which they had given. But he would like to know how an error or a wrong committed in 1853 was to be rectified in 1855, when the Bill before the House referred to a different matter altogether? Moreover, the feeling which prevailed among the shareholders in 1853 was five times stronger in 1855, and for his own part he despaired of effecting any change in favour of the scheme proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Hildyard). He should not give any promise on the subject, because he did not mean to commit himself; but he thought it hard that a railway company should be censured at one time for constructing new lines and branches, and at another for refusing to plunge headlong into works of the same description. The present Bill was merely a Bill for the better regulation of the traffic of the company, and he hoped hon. Members would not feel themselves justified in refusing to read it a second time.
MR. BECKETTsaid, he thought the South Western Company had forfeited all claim to confidence, not only by failing to undertake the construction of the line for which they had obtained powers in 1848, and applying the money subscribed to other purposes, but by refusing to redeem the pledge given by the hon. Member for Berwickshire (Mr. F. Scott), in consequence of which the scheme supported by
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the Great Western and Bristol and Exeter Companies was rejected. Parliament, in his opinion, would consult its dignity by refusing the present application.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, the question before the House was one of very considerable importance. There were, he believed, no doubt about the facts of the case:—A railway company induced a Committee of that House to throw out a Bill proposed by another railway company (which, if passed, would have supplied the wants of the inhabitants of a large district), upon the authority of a general meeting that they would undertake to make this line. The Committee considered that the line proposed would, from the representations of men in high office, be of great public benefit. The Committee, however, rejected a Bill which they would have adopted, with a view of passing a Bill which the South Western Company promised to bring in. That company afterwards repudiated their own acts, for another meeting was called which disavowed the proceedings of the former meeting, in consequence of which the directors at once resigned. The company repudiated engagements, and acted against the commonest principles of honesty. He believed the House would give a useful lesson to railway companies by refusing to read on the present occasion the Bill a second time. The adjournment for a month would give the present directors of the South Western Company time to consider the course they ought to pursue. He (Mr. Labouchere should vote for the Amendment; and, in doing so, he need scarcely say that he was totally unconnected with the companies of both districts.
MR. DEEDESsaid, he would vote for the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Whitehaven, on public grounds. In the year 1848 he had had the honour of presiding over a Committee of that House before which this question was brought, and which spent fifty-seven days in endeavouring to ascertain what would most completely satisfy the wants of the part of the country affected, and the interests of the public service. The decision of that Committee was that certain things undertaken to be done by the South Western Railway Company would best attain that end, and on that account their plan was preferred to that of the Great Western Railway Company. The result, however, of that fifty-seven days' inquiry was that not a single thing was done which the

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company had undertaken to do; every promise had been broken, and the proceedings of that House had been set at nought.
MR. HUTCHINSsaid, he did not see that any good would be done by postponing the Bill. He had always spoken in the strongest terms of the transaction which had been referred to, and he was not now about to defend it, but he must remind the House that persons standing very high in this country had voted in favour of it. An ex-Chancellor and two or three of the Judges had sent their proxies in favour of the repudiation. This Bill, however, referred to an entirely different matter, and he certainly thought the House ought not to refuse to proceed with it.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he could see very considerable advantage to be derived from the postponement of the Bill. The breach of faith on the part of the company was not denied, and that the House should now enter into dealings with this company without taking notice of such a transaction was a thing not to be thought of. The hon. and learned Member for Whitehaven had given a very excellent reason for postponement. He wished to afford the offending company, which, it appeared, was to have a meeting within the month, an opportunity of seeing what the House of Commons felt with regard to the gross breach of faith which had been committed by them—to give them a locus penitentiœ, so that finding they were not to be trusted again on their bare word, they might have the option of inserting in this Bill some clause which should bind them by a stronger obligation than was usually demanded from men of honour. Certainly, if the House allowed this Bill to pass without taking any notice of the former transaction, they would be opening the door to all sorts of trickery, dishonesty, and chicanery,
MR. F. SCOTTsaid, that as he had been Chairman of the company at the time when the transaction referred to took place, he might be expected to have some feeling in the matter; but he could assure the House that he had none other but that which he trusted every Gentleman present had—that of morality, truth, and propriety. Being still a shareholder in the company, his bias would naturally be in favour of the Bill now before the House, which was a very important one, but, as the Motion before the House was one for its postponement, and not for its rejection, he would not oppose it, thinking that, as the half-
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yearly meeting of the company was about to occur, the proprietary would have an opportunity of deciding whether they valued this Bill so much as to make it worth their while to put themselves in the position of coming into court with clean hands. He should not fail to attend the meeting, whether he were hooted or cheered, and he should tell the shareholders of the light in which their conduct was viewed by that House.
MR. JAMES M'GREGOR,said, he would wish to point out that the present position of the House with regard to this company was to be attributed to its injudicious, ill-considered system of railway legislation.
MR. CHAPLINsaid, that as the feeling of the House was so strong, he should not oppose the Motion for postponement.
Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

THE ARMY IN THE CRIMEA—ADJOURN MENT OF THE HOUSE—QUESTION.
MR. RICHsaid, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he was prepared to lay on the table a copy of the official document on which he founded a statement which was most satisfactory to the public—namely, that the latest official reports received from the Crimea at the time when he addressed the House, enabled him to assert that there were under arms 28,200 men, independently of the naval brigade and the marines, and exclusive of all the men in hospital at Balaklava or elsewhere. If the right hon. Gentleman would furnish that statement, he would afford great satisfaction both to that House and to the country.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought he need hardly acquaint the hon. Member that, in making that statement, he was acting upon Returns which were not under his own control, but which had been furnished him by the military departments, and he would rather not give any answer with respect to the production of those Returns until the Members of the Government more particularly interested had bad time to consider the question which plainly involved matters of great consequence. The hon. Member was, however, entirely mistaken in the expression that he had attributed to him, and had represented him as having said that there were 28,200 men under arms. That was not the expression he had used. What he had really said was that there

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were 28,200 men in the discharge of military duties before Sebastopol. He might now, perhaps, be permitted to advert to what was stated yesterday with respect to the order of business in the House. He thought there had then been a general impression in the House, if he could recall its right feeling, that it would not be desirable to proceed to any important business until his noble Friend the Member for Tiverton, who had accepted the office of First Lord of the Treasury, should have had an opportunity of submitting himself to his constituents after vacating his seat in that House. If his noble Friend should be re-elected, he could not with any certainty be expected to make his re-appearance in the House before the middle of next week. He thought, also, that the feeling was, that it would be very inconvenient that the House should meet merely for the purpose of despatching business of form, it being understood that no substantial business was to be brought before them during the time between the present time and the period at which they should re-assemble for the transaction of important business. He had said yesterday that there was a probability that, on account of the necessity of passing a Ways and Means Bill, to authorise a further issue of money for the services of the Navy and Ordnance, it might be requisite for the House to meet from day to day in a merely formal manner; but being anxious to spare the House that inconvenience, and also to relieve Mr. Speaker, on whose time and patience they had to make heavy draughts, the Government had looked carefully into the matter, and found that they would be able to make the necessary provision for the services, supposing that the House did not adjourn for a period more distant than next Friday week. What he proposed, therefore, was this—to give notice for the order of business for to-morrow week as follows:—The first subject to be taken should be the Navy Estimates; second, the Army Estimates; and then there should be notice of a Committee on the subject of the newspaper stamp. He put these three matters on the notice paper although he did not expect the House to get through all of them in one day. He had a confident expectation that the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty would then be in his place to move the Navy Estimates. It would be, he hoped, not inconvenient for the House to meet tomorrow for the purpose of pressing for-
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ward the money votes they had been obliged to submit for the immediate exigencies of the service; but as to-morrow was a Friday, it had appeared to them that it would be more convenient for the House to meet at twelve o'clock, as the business was purely of a formal nature. He should, therefore, move that Mr. Speaker do take the Chair to-morrow at twelve o'clock, and he should on that occasion move the adjournment of the House until Friday, the 16th of February.
Motion agreed to.

SUPPLY—EXCESS OF NAVAL EXPENDI TURE.
Order for Committee read.
House in Committee of Supply.
MR. COWPERsaid, he had to ask for a vote not exceeding 1,615,600 l. on account of the Excess of Naval Expenditure for the year ending the 31st of March, 1855; and said, that as it had been agreed that there should be no discussion at present, he would leave such explanations as the House might require to be given by his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty when he moved the Navy Estimates on Friday week. The total amount of the excess estimate was 1,938,104 l., and the Government now asked for 1,615,600 l. of that sum.
House resumed. Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
On the bringing up of the Report on the Ordnance Estimates,
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that he had been that morning informed by letters received from Plymouth, that a company of Sappers and Miners, lately embarked there on board the Princess Alice, had been so embarked in a state of mutiny, caused by starvation, because the authorities would not allow them to eat anything inside the victualling-yard, although they were detained many hours before their embarkation. He had received a letter from a gentleman of the highest position in Plymouth, stating that he had inquired into the facts of this case, and found that the men reached Plymouth by an early train, and were marched to the victualling-yard in order to embark, but that they did not do so until a late hour of the day, and during the delay which thus occurred they had no food until the circumstance became known in the town, when, through the kindness of Mr. Harris, a respectable

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tradesman in Stonehouse, they were provided with bread and cheese and beer at a hotel. Now, the neglect of the Admiralty at our seaports reflected great discredit upon them. These men, he believed, were about to embark for the Crimea to join our army there, and they were treated with gross neglect, if not with downright inhumanity, by the dockyard authorities. Only a few days ago we had an account of their unfeeling conduct towards sick men who landed from the East at Portsmouth, without there being any officer to receive them, and the poor creatures, who were in pain and could not sit down, remained exposed in the cold air while their baggage—a few miserable rags, no doubt—were ransacked by the Custom-house officers. Why were not these dockyard officers, in the receipt of large salaries from the country, there to receive these poor men? Only two days afterwards the Queen went to Portsmouth, on her way to Osborne. There was no lack of officials in attendance on that occasion, but if Her Majesty had been aware of their conduct towards the poor soldiers and sailors who had suffered in Her service, and in whom, we all knew, She took a warm interest, he believed that She would have driven those officers, decorated as they were, from Her presence with disgust, and perhaps have ordered them to be dismissed from their situations. Now, he did not object to this Vote, though certainly the greatest waste of public money had been caused through the most culpable negligence. The country ought to know how much money had been expended in providing comforts for our brave, but neglected army. From the Supplementary Ordnance Estimate it would be seen that there had been supplied greatcoats, boots, and shoes for the troops, warm and waterproof clothing, and other waterproof articles to the value of 649,500 l.; in addition to which, under the head of stores, there were the items for camp equipage, &c,, 234,860 l.; huts for troops, 54,800 l.; stable huts for 5,000 horses, 19,041 l.; and hospital huts for 2,000 patients, 12,969 l.; making together a total of 971,170 l. By the vote of that House last Session upwards of 600,000 l. were also given for the same purpose; thus showing that 1,570,000 l. altogether had been expended in providing comforts for our soldiers in the Crimea. The country would not grudge the outlay required for the benefit of its soldiers; but our army was actually perishing for want of food,
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clothing, and shelter, while these enormous sums were wasted by the most disgraceful mismanagement. He believed that the main fault lay with the men whom the Government had appointed as their instruments, and for whose conduct the Government was, therefore, equally responsible. The Ordnance department was the worst managed department in this country, bad as they all were, and he hoped it would be included in the new Secretariat of War. The head of that department was in command of an army 3,000 miles off. Had he been at his office in Pall Mall, instead of in the Crimea, he (Mr. Williams) believed the lives of many thousands of our men, as well as the honour and character of the country, would have been saved. Our disasters were much more to be attributed to the want of common sense and common management than to any other cause. How was it that this country could send the necessary stores to an army 3,000 miles off, and the general commanding that army in chief could not find the means of transporting them over the six miles lying between the sea and the camp? Had he taken the advice of any sergeant of the line, instead of consulting only some aristocratic officers, all these misfortunes would have been avoided, for the commonest sergeant of the line could have told him how. Lord Raglan apparently did nothing. He only wrote to the Admiralty in despair. Had he written to our Ambassador at Constantinople 2,000 labourers might have been immediately sent him, who would have constructed a road in forty-eight hours. The manner in which our brave army had been left without raiment, food, or shelter, had disgraced the nation, and lowered it in the eyes of the civilised world. He hoped the new Government would act with energy and courage sufficient to remedy and remove these evils. He hoped the House also would support them. If they would only relieve our troops effectually, they would earn the thanks of the nation. He wished to know also from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether this was money that had been expended or that was to be expended?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that it was a vote for money to be expended.
Resolution agreed to.

EDUCATION BILL.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Sir, I rise to move for leave to bring in a Bill on the

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subject of education. I do not wish to enter into any explanation of the Bill, or any statement with reference to its provisions. It is of importance, however, that the Bill should be brought before the House, in order that it should be printed, and then that people in the country may see the objects it proposes to attain. I shall therefore only move that the Bill be now brought in.
Leave given. Bill ordered to be brought in by Lord J. Russell and Mr. Hastings Russell.
Bill read 1·.

THE ARMY IN THE CRIMEA.
On the Motion for the adjournment of the House,
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, he deeply regretted that in the present state of public affairs any Motion should be proposed to the House such as the Motion of which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given notice—namely, that the House should adjourn till Friday, the 16th instant. He was very well aware that those Gentlemen opposite felt very uncomfortable in their seats, and wished for time for re-election, and repentance he hoped. He did not think this country would submit to such an indiscreet postponement under the existing circumstances in which they were placed. He thought they ought all to offer their thanks to the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) for the inquiry he had promised to bring forward, and of the result of which there could be no doubt whatever. He wished the Government had a little more consideration for the brave soldiers and sailors composing our army than they appeared to have. He had last night, to his deep regret, seen upon the Treasury bench smiles that he thought most unbecoming, unfeeling, and indecent; and had not the House been in the state in which it was, he should have risen in his place and directed its attention to the subject. Now, when every hour was of importance, all the House had to look to was a shabby Ministry in a state of disgrace, who, he regretted to say, had not been finally excluded from office. He had, he hoped, the feelings of a soldier; and with such feelings he begged to ask in what state our army now was? Do let them know what was to be done—do let them be up and stirring; this sort of disgraceful apathy had already lasted far too long, and ought to be put a stop to. They
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were getting nothing done, and this Motion for adjournment was only a shuffling pretext to shelter a Ministry who had been guilty of ignorance, who did not know where they were, nor what they should do; but he trusted the time was not far distant when the House would send them off, never to return.
MR. G. BUTTsaid, he wished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to a statement made by him yesterday, and which had had the effect of considerably cheering the people out of doors. The right hon. Gentleman was reported to have said that at the time to which he referred, the effective force before Sebastopol, including, of course, as was understood, the naval force serving on shore, amounted in round numbers to 30,000 men. This statement had also been repeated by the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Works. Now, that statement had created considerable surprise in the minds of many who had friends in the Crimea, with whom they correspond. His attention had been drawn to it from the fact of having seen letters addressed to other gentlemen, and one received by himself, which did not agree with such a statement. The letter he had received came from a gentleman high in rank, capable of forming an opinion, and one whose statement might be relied on, and agreed with that read from day to day in the Times—namely, that the effective British force before Sebastopol did not, unfortunately, amount to more than 12,000 men. There was no party feeling in this question, and the right hon. Gentleman might take his (Mr. Butt's) word for it, that in calling attention to this he was influenced by no other feeling than that of the deep anxiety which he felt in common with the whole country for the remainder of that army which had achieved so much, and which, if possible, had suffered so much more. When the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the effective force of the army was 30,000 men, it was expected that such statement was based on returns which were made from time to time to the Horse Guards from the army, and his object in rising was to beg that the right hon. Gentleman would give to them the information which would assure them of the contrary of that which he must know was daily stated in the papers, and in the letters of those who wrote from the army. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to satisfy the

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country that his statement was one on which they could rely, for if they found that they could do so, it would give great relief to the country. When they read from time to time in one of the most influential papers of the day—the Times—that the remainder of the army was wasting away, and that—he would not use the strong expressions employed in that paper, but they amounted to this—that some frightful catastrophe was at hand—this was a state of things in which they could not count on the existence of 30,000 men; and he wished that they could with confidence count on the number mentioned in the letter he had received, which gave from 12,000 to 13,000 men for the effective force—he wished they could reckon on this, but, excepting the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, not one could he find which did not point almost to the annihilation of the army. The Committee of Inquiry would show who were to blame for the state to which our army had been reduced, but the country felt that the soldiers had been sacrificed to neglect and incompetence, which had, besides the sufferings occasioned, endangered the very security of the country. He trusted, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would, if possible to-morrow, furnish the House with a statement from returns on which they could rely, that at the time to which he referred the effective force of the army amounted to 28,000 men.
MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid, he did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was about to give any promise for a future day, but for his part he did most earnestly deprecate the repetition of statements of this kind on the benches of that House. Those statements were not only read and heard in that House and in the country, but they were read and heard elsewhere also. Hon. Gentlemen ought therefore to feel the very deep responsibility that was laid upon them as Members of that House. For his part he could not understand that patriotism which indulged itself in repeating what he believed to be exaggerated statements of the weakness of our forces before Sebastopol. He could not understand what good it was to serve. Was it supposed by any man that what the noble Lord the Member for the City of London described as the "horrible and heart-rending" sufferings of the army were subjects upon which any Government could be indifferent, or that the existing wants of the army were not ever present to the
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mind of the Government? Was it not the fact that the House had insisted upon a substitution of the men engaged in the supervision of the War Department, for the very purpose of endeavouring to effect an alteration in the existing state of things; and was there any advantage, or any national object, to be gained by repeating, day after day, those melancholy statements—statements which, he again said, he believed to be grossly exaggerated? He believed there were few of them who had not friends and relatives in the Crimea. He himself had blood relations there, shedding their blood and doing their best in the service of their country. They all received private letters from their friends there. He knew that those letters spoke with feeling and pity of the sufferings of the soldiers, but he had still to learn that any officer had yet written from that camp in terms of despondency. Everything he had seen and heard confirmed his belief that the officers' letters from the camp, while they lamented the hardships our brave soldiers so heroically underwent, contained expressions of the utmost confidence in the result of the enterprise. A comparison had been drawn between the state of our army and that of the French army. He asked, was it fair to draw any such comparison? It was not for him to state what was the exact position of the French army; they heard very little about that army, because it was very little spoken of; but he was certain that the condition of that army would be much worse than it was if there were in France opportunities of making statements like some that were made in that House. But was this all? If these statements did not serve this country, whom did they serve? In making statements so well calculated to discourage their own soldiers—if it were possible to discourage them—they did everything it was possible to do to give spirit and encouragement to the enemy. He would venture to say that if another attack should be made upon our position, and another battle of Inkerman should be fought, those who made such statements would have incurred a fearful responsibility. He believed that the Russian army had suffered quite as much as it had been represented to have done, for on no other supposition could he account for its inaction. If hon. Gentlemen desired the present state of things to be remedied, let them have a strong Government—let them sanction the selection of the Crown, if, as he believed

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was the case, a strong Government could be formed; but let them not, night after night, make statements of facts which, in his belief, were greatly exaggerated, and would assuredly incite the enemy to attack the army. He had very lately seen statements in the French newspapers which were well known to be inspired by high authorities in that country, expressing their astonishment and shame at the tone assumed by certain Members of the House of Commons. They pointed out the pregnant fact that since the year 1815 this country had asserted that it was a non-military Power, and had tried to forget the art of war, resting upon the laurels which it had already won; they pointed out, also, that since 1815 France had been anxious to retrieve the position of her army by every means in her power; that for twenty years they had had campaigns in Algeria, as the best school for their army, and that the English army was at that moment reaping the fruits of the experience which they (the French) had acquired under the walls of Constantina.
MR. H. BAILLIEsaid, the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite had thought it right to volunteer a lecture to an hon. Member on his (Mr. Baillie's) side of the House. Yet the right hon. and learned Gentleman's lecture ought rather to have been directed to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as it was in consequence of a voluntary statement made by that right hon. Gentleman that all this questioning arose. He could very well understand the inconvenience of a Minister making statements and giving information on such subjects—he could very well understand the right hon. Gentleman saying, when questioned, that he ought not to answer the question, as it would be inconvenient to the public service; but the right hon. Gentleman had done no such thing. The right hon. Gentleman had in his speech made a voluntary statement the other night, and another voluntary statement had been made by another Minister—the right hon. Baronet the First Commissioner of Works last night. But when those voluntary statements turned out to be quite different to the private accounts—for he himself had read a statement describing matters to be far worse than those represented by the Ministers—then he thought hon. Members had a right to ask on what grounds those statements had been made; and he thought it would be well if the right hon. Gentle-
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man the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave some explanation on the subject; for there could be no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman had included in his return, not only the effective British troops before Sebastopol, but the Turks under the command of Lord Raglan, and the sick and wounded. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: No, no!] There appeared to him, however, to be no other way to account for the statements made to the House. He knew that accounts had been received at the Horse Guards, and he believed that the latest return sent to this country did not give more than 10,365 as the number of effective British bayonets before Sebastopol.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I do not wonder, Sir, that my right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. S. Wortley) wishes to deprecate a discussion of this kind, but at the same time there is one statement which has been so commonly put forth, that I am not surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite ask for some explanation, and that they are surprised that there should be a discrepancy between what is ordinarily circulated as the state of the army and the official account which they hear from the Ministers of the Crown. The statement usually put forward fixes the number of men before Sebastopol at about 12,000 or 14,000, and it is generally understood that 54,000 have been sent out. It is then asked, how is it possible that, having sent out 54,000, you have now only 12,000 remaining, and how comes it that so enormous a number as 40,000 or 42,000 men have been lost to the army. Now the House ought to be informed that this is not a fair comparison. If you take 54,000 on the one side as the number sent out, you ought not to take 12,000 as the number remaining in the Crimea. The 54,000 men sent out includes all the cavalry and all the artillery; it includes every commissioned and every non-commissioned officer; it includes every man present under arms, every one employed as an orderly, upon hospital duty, or in any way whatever. Hence, when you have taken away all the artillery and all the cavalry, all officers whether commissioned or non-commissioned, and all men employed in various other duties not strictly military, you will then get at a fair number with which to compare the amount of men now spoken of as actually under arms in the Crimea. If you add all these men—all those officers, commissioned and

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non-commissioned, you will find that, instead of 14,000 or 12,000 men, you have a force of some 28,000 or 30,000 men, and adding 14,000 for sick and wounded, the number of 44,000 will be accounted for. I admit that the mistake is a very reasonable one for hon. Gentlemen to make, but it is a mistake which I think ought to be corrected; and I cannot but think that it will be a comfort to the House and the country to know the real truth. Of course the state of our troops has been lamentable, and I should be the last person in this House to say that hon. Members should not feel deeply upon the subject. At the same time I think it right to state that only yesterday I happened to meet a gentleman, a civilian, who had just returned from the Crimea, and that I took the opportunity of inquiring into the actual state of the army before Sebastopol, and whether it was the fact that the men were so emaciated and failing in strength as has been represented. He told me that a great many men had died, and that a great many were still sick, but with regard to a great portion of the troops who were of stronger constitutions, he said that they appeared to be in possession of all their strength, and ready to perform any duty which might be required of them. The House will permit me also to call attention to the filet that ours is not the only army before Sebastopol. There is the considerable force of our allies before that place, so that in fact not less a number than 80,000 men are there collected. I cannot but take this opportunity to say that I have seen, with some disgust, the attacks which have been made on the gallant commander of the British part of that force. I am sure Lord Raglan is not only an experienced soldier, but that he is as feeling and attentive to the sufferings of those under his command as any man who ever wore the British uniform. I hope, I believe, that he will rise above the attacks which have been made upon him by a ribald press, and that he will long continue to enjoy the respect of his country. I must also take this occasion to say a word upon the present position of the Executive. My right hon. and learned Friend the Recorder of London has very properly placed before the House that we now have a First Lord of the Treasury who has great experience upon all these subjects, whose vigour and ability are undoubted, and who has always satisfied Parliament and the country by the declaration of sen-
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timents most patriotic, and by the manner in which he has discharged the duties of the important offices with which, at various times, he has been intrusted. I am also glad to hear that another noble Friend of mine (Lord Panmure) has accepted the office of Minister of War. My noble Friend was for a long time Secretary at War in this House; he is a perfect master of the principles which regulate our army, and he will, I doubt not, turn his immediate attention to any improvement which can be suggested. He will not, I believe, be induced to adopt, under the name of improvement, innovations which might be destructive to the very existence of the army; but he will adopt, I am sure, every plan which the science of the present day, and the skill which enterprising men have brought to hear upon every kind of arms placed within his reach, for the purpose of raising the condition of our soldiers. I believe that my noble Friend the present Secretary of State for the War Department will be ready to place that army, which has suffered so much, not from want of discipline, or of military organisation, but from the failure of the civil departments, in a position to sustain the reputation of the British soldier. I have heard suggestions made that the whole military organisation of this country is defective. I do not pretend to speak as to the details of that organisation, but this I know perfectly well, that when the Duke of York fitted out regiments for service which the Duke of Wellington commanded, there was then no want of organisation—there was then no want of a force ready to sustain at any moment the reputation of this country. Nor can I think that there is so much of faultiness as it is now the fashion to impute to our system. I have no doubt that, in the years of peace which we have passed through, many parts of our system may have got out of use. It may be that in the first year of a war you cannot be able to furnish all those means of transport and all those civil services by which an army is supplied—the want of which has occasioned those grievous misfortunes which the country now deplores; but I really think that the services and establishments which are required to be regulated by my noble Friend will be adequately supplied, and no doubt the House will vote the means requisite for the restoration of those services and establishments to a state of complete efficiency. I will add, before I resume my seat, that I have every con-

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fidence in the Ministry named by Her Majesty, and I am sure that a majority of this House will give it their cordial support—but, of course, retaining the power of interfering at any time if they find the interests of the country neglected or disregarded. The House, I am sure, will give the new Ministry an opportunity of carrying into effect, by means of the executive, all the measures which may be required, without any undue interference on its part which might be prejudicial to the best interests of the country.
MR. RICHbegged to assure the House that in asking the question in the early part of the evening which had been so frequently alluded to in the course of this conversation, he had not had the slightest intention to impugn the statement that had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His only object in asking that question was to afford to the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of stating the facts as they really were. There was undoubtedly a very great discrepancy between the two calculations—that which described the forces in the Crimea as amounting to some 12,000 or 14,000 men, and that which estimated them as amounting to as large a number as 28,000; nor, to speak the truth, could he altogether understand how the discrepancies could be reconciled even by such explanations as the noble Lord the Member for the City of London had just submitted. However, that was a matter for the House to determine. It was greatly to be desired that there should be laid upon the table of the House such official returns as would enable the country to understand how the case really stood. There was no use in concealing the facts. No good purpose could possibly be served by concealment; on the contrary, he believed that a true statement of the facts as they really were would best conduce to our interests. He believed that it was desirable that the truth should be known to England, to France, and even to Russia. He was not, one of those who had any misgiving as to the ultimate success of the campaign. He did not believe that there was any reason for despondency as to the eventual result, but he thought it of the highest importance that there should be such an official statement of our position as would enable the country to comprehend the true state of our case.
MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid, he must beg to explain that he had not in-
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tended to animadvert upon the question which had been put by the hon. Gentleman, but he confessed that the language with which it had been accompanied by the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth had excited him to make a few observations.
MR. G. BUTTsaid, he had put no question, but had merely pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should give an explanation of the fact he had stated.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, that one of his nearest and dearest relations was with the army before Sebastopol, and therefore he felt a deep interest in what was taking place there. He thought he should be neglecting his duty if he did not state that the private letters he had received were of a very different complexion from those to which the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth had alluded. He admitted that his letters contained many statements of hardships, of pain, and of suffering, of occasional bad weather, although not nearly so bad as had often been described, but their language throughout was that not only of hope, but of confident expectation. There was no desponding. Many of the statements they saw were certainly not borne out by many of the letters they received.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, after what had been stated so well by his noble Friend (Lord John Russell) with respect to the explanation of the apparent discrepancy between the statement he had made and the account contained in the public journals, he should have felt that it was almost unnecessary for him to address a single word to the House, if it had not been for the imputation which had been thrown out by the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. H. Baillie). His noble Friend had pointed out the difference in the mode of estimating the forces of an army, which would really account for nearly the whole of the apparent discrepancy between those statements. Not only in the statement referred to were the officers excluded, and all the forces except the infantry excluded, but a considerable portion of the rank and file themselves were excluded, because, in every army, a large portion of the rank and file were perpetually employed from day to day in duties, not military duties, which portion was not included in that statement. But he desired more particularly to contradict the observation of the hon. Member for

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Inverness-shire, who said that in the number of 28,000 men, who, according to the statement he had made, were discharging military duty before Sebastopol, were included a force of Turks, and the wounded and sick. Now there was not a single sick man, a single wounded man, a single Turk, or any other person except members of the British army included in the numbers he had stated to the House when he said that there were 28,200 men engaged in the discharge of military duty before Sebastopol. This was strictly true; of course he meant it was strictly true at the time when he had made the statement; but ten days had since elapsed, and of the changes which had occurred in that time, although he had no reason to believe they were great, he could not speak without more correct and recent information. He must confess that he could not wonder that statements of this kind should be made in the House, nor could he venture to complain of them. The tide of feeling ran so strong when those who were possessed of all our sympathies were in a situation of so much hardship, privation, and suffering, that we should be either more or less than men if the anxieties that were so intensely felt did not find for themselves some, even although it were rather an irregular, channel of expression. He therefore did not presume to read any lecture, or to make any complaint to any one. All he did say was this—he would beseech and entreat hon. Members to place upon their feelings as much restraint as they possibly could. It was hardly necessary to say that he entirely acquitted the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth (Mr. G. Butt) of being actuated by any spirit of party in the remarks he had made. No man in that House would be guilty of such a thing; but when the hon. and learned Gentleman said it appeared from private accounts that a great disaster was at hand—[MR. G. BUTT: I said, I had read the statement in the newspapers of today.] Those statements were, of course, founded upon private accounts. He would entreat the hon. and learned Gentleman to bear in mind that, although he might have made the statement in that House not as his own opinion, it would yet go forth to the world as his own opinion. Nor was this all, for that which was spoken in the House of Commons, when it went forth to the world, was carelessly and loosely examined by promiscuous readers of imperfect reports, and was supposed, in some
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vague and indefinite sense, to carry with it the authority of the House of Commons. On that account, reports of this kind, if taken up and promulgated by Members of the House, really became productive of great practical mischief; and without presuming to complain of hon. Members, he would venture to ask of all of them to use the utmost caution, and to place as much restraint on themselves as their natural interest in the fate of the army would allow, before they gave what may be considered as currency and authority to such statements. It was a perfectly rational course to put questions and to ask the Government for information, and it was a more useful and a less dangerous method than to deal in intelligence of this more or less questionable description, and to give it an authority which it did not otherwise possess.
MR. DUNDASsaid, he had but lately returned from the Crimea, and he could state from personal observation that there was no feeling of despondency amongst the soldiers of the British army. In a note which he had received in December from an aide-de-camp in the Second Division, it was stated that out of four battalions there were only 1,200 rank and file, fit for duty, the nominal amount on paper being 2,714. These 2,714 were in existence, but were not at that time available for the trenches or for action, many of them having been sent to Scutari, and others having come home. But notwithstanding this, he did not take quite so desponding a view as some hon. Gentlemen were disposed to do, although he admitted that matters were very bad. When he was in the Crimea he saw that the men suffered very much from exposure, from cold, and from want of proper clothing; but he had left in the latter part of December, and since then large supplies of clothing had arrived at the camp. One of the greatest difficulties with which the men had to contend was the want of fuel, without which they could not cook their provisions; and when he was at Malta he had observed with great pleasure that a public company—he believed Price's Patent Candle Company—had devised a scheme and submitted it to the Secretary at War, by which six pounds of composition would be sufficient to keep a tent warm. The men for want of fuel, had frequently been obliged to eat their rations raw: and a man who had nothing to eat but a slice or two of raw pork could not be expected to do any work. He

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had no doubt of the ultimate success of the expedition; for when two such countries as France and England combined to carry out a great work, nothing on earth would stop them; but it would be attended with a great loss of life. For the last forty years but little thought had been concentrated upon those contrivances in the art of war which in the other arts had been brought to such a pitch of perfection, and be had been told by an officer of artillery that many lives had been lost in the batteries by the bursting of our own cannon. But the talent of the mechanic would now be brought into play, and the energy which England would put forth would no doubt ultimately bring success. He might perhaps at a future time have an opportunity of telling a plain unvarnished tale of what he had witnessed, and any information in his possession he should at any time be most happy to communicate to those to whom it might be useful.
MR. JAMES MACGREGORsaid that every vote which the Government had proposed for the carrying on of the war had passed unquestioned.
Motion agreed to.
The House adjourned at half after Six o'clock.