Commons Sitting of 7 February 1855

MINUTES.
NEW WRITS.—For Tiverton, v. Viscount Palmerston, First Commissioner of the Treasury; for Wilts (Southern Division), v. Right Hon. Sidney Herbert, Secretary of State.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Bills of Exchange.
2o Public Libraries and Museums.

SUPPLY—ORDNANCE SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I propose to move that you do now leave the Chair, for the purpose of going into Committee of Supply, in order that I may then ask the Committee to give a Vote on account, being part of the Supplementary Estimate for the Ordnance Department, of which my right hon. Friend, who has now accepted the office of one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State, gave notice yesterday. I presume the Government are of opinion that it would be the wish of the House that we should not proceed with any business, except such as is of absolute necessity, in order that those who have accepted office, or who have changed their offices, in Her Majesty's Government—at least, the principal members of it—may have an opportunity of submitting themselves to their constituents for their re-election. It would, perhaps, be inconvenient to proceed to important business in the absence of these Gentlemen. At the same time, as far as the Government is concerned, it would be perfectly convenient for them to go on with those Bills which already stand upon the Votes of this House; and if the expression of opinion should make it evident that such is the wish of the House, we shall be prepared to do so; but, estimating as well as we can what may be the probable wish of the House, we apprehend that it would not be thought convenient to proceed in that manner, and consequently the intention of the Government is to propose that the first important public business to be taken up in this
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House should be the Navy Estimates, and to fix Friday week for going into that question. It would not be possible, I am afraid, for my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, who has been seriously indisposed for some short time, to be in his place for the purpose of moving those Estimates before that day; but we do hope that he may at that time be present, or, if not, we shall endeavour to make some arrangement for bringing, at all events, a portion of the Estimates before the House upon that day. With respect to the Vote which we shall propose to-day, it is only necessary for me to remind the House of the restrictions that are laid upon the Government by the rules and regulations of this House in regard to the disposal of public money. The House will bear in mind that it is not only necessary that all money which is to be raised for the public service should be raised by the authority of Parliament—that it is not only necessary that the money so raised should be appropriated to particular services by the authority of Parliament, but the wisdom of this House—or, at any rate, the usage of this House—has added a further restriction, namely, that no money, although legally raised and legally appropriated or assigned to particular services by this House, can be used without the sanction of a Bill of Ways and Means. It has become necessary for us to propose, in consequence of the amount of expenditure in the Navy and Ordnance departments, a supplemental estimate for the present year—in the first place, to authorise a further expenditure of money for those services, and, in the second place, to authorise the issue of that money. We are not in a condition, unfortunately—I say so because, in this instance, the rule is attended with some public inconvenience—we are not in a condition to issue that money, though it be voted in Supply, without a Bill of Ways and Means. On that account, and because, in point of fact, we have now come rather near the margin given to us by the Ways and Means Bill passed last Session. I am afraid that it will not be in the power of the Government to propose that which undoubtedly would be most for the convenience of the House, if I estimate the inclination of the House aright, namely, an absolute adjournment of the House till Friday week. But what we propose now is, that we should go into Committee of Supply, and take a Vote on account for the Ordnance service, leaving a residue to be afterwards brought before the House,

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so as not to interfere with the liberty of hon. Members to discuss the whole subject if they think fit. The remainder of the Vote will afford that opportunity for discussion, and I hope, therefore, that the House will make no objection or difficulty to what I now propose, but will at once allow the House to go into Committee of Supply, and vote on account the means which are necessary, in the meantime, to meet the exigencies of the public service, as I am sure it is not the wish of the House that any portion of the public service should be crippled or impeded for want of the necessary resources. If, as I presume, it shall be the pleasure of the House to grant a Vote on account to-day, that Vote will be reported to-morrow, and during the interval we shall carefully examine whether it is possible for us, agreeably to the present law, to provide for the necessary issues of money without putting the House to the trouble of meeting from day to day for merely formal business, and we shall then announce the result to the House. It may, perhaps, be supposed that, even although that matter may be satisfactorily adjusted, it will still be necessary or convenient for the House to meet for private business; but, at any rate, to-morrow, I presume, we shall be able to tell the House what arrangement may be made with reference to that subject. In the meantime, if I propose this Vote now—and I trust it will be given, notwithstanding the absence of my noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury—I propose it without the slightest limitation of the liberty of hon. Gentlemen to discuss the whole subject at a future time. Therefore, a residue will remain which will bring the whole question of that expenditure under the notice of the House, and that which will be taken now will be taken only to meet the necessary demands of the public service.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he could not do otherwise than characterise the proceeding of the right hon. Gentleman as exceedingly irregular. The House was, in fact, completely taken by surprise, because the very first intimation of the proposed Vote appeared in that day's paper, in the name of Mr. Secretary at War, and that right hon. Gentleman was no longer a Member of the House. With such a notice as that, therefore, he put it to the House and the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair, whether it was competent for the House to go into Committee of Supply then, and vote what he anticipated would
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be a large sum of money. Another point to which he desired to call attention was the circumstance that two Bills had been placed on the table, according to which it appeared that in two departments alone there had been an excess of expenditure amounting to no less a sum than 3,340,000 l., and he wanted to know if there was also to be a Supplementary Estimate for the Army Department as well, or was this the whole of the extra expenditure, for the House would bear in mind that he was speaking of the expenditure for the financial year ending April next, and not the forthcoming year. He wished particularly to draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to his own declaration made on the 12th of August last, when the right hon. Gentleman distinctly stated that sufficient supplies for the war expenditure had been voted. Those supplies amounted in round numbers to 25,247,000 l.; but if that were so, what was the meaning of this unforeseen expenditure of 3,340,000 l. in two departments alone? The item was so astounding, that, before Mr. Speaker left the Chair, he considered that House ought to be informed if this was the full extent of outstanding liabilities, or whether there was to be a still further demand on account of the army. Last year the right hon. Gentleman made an original Estimate, a second Estimate, a Supplementary Estimate, and a Supplementary-Supplementary Estimate. In that way he contrived to run up his bill to 25,247,000 l.; but he gave the House an assurance that that was all that would be required. Suddenly, however, the House was called upon to enter into a new question, and to vote on account of two items alone, the Navy and Ordnance Departments, no less a sum than 3,340,000 l. He should like to know, therefore, whether the Government could constitutionally require the House to vote such large sums on account without notice, and at a moment when there was no responsible person present to answer for the expenditure. And, in the next place, he should like to know what was the meaning of the two Supplementary Estimates; if it was intended to have yet another Estimate for the Army; and when, in short, the House was to be made acquainted with what other supplies were required for the current year.
MR. MUNTZsaid, he fully concurred in the remarks which had fallen from the hon. Baronet, but he had a still stronger objection to the Vote than any which the hon. Baronet had stated. There were two exceedingly objectionable items in the Ord-

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nance Report. One was a sum of 25,000 l. for a shell manufactory at Woolwich. Now, he spoke advisedly, when he said that there was no such establishment at Woolwich, or anywhere else. It was merely a job perpetrated for the advantage of one person at Woolwich. The other item was that of 15,000 l. for small arms. He would like also to know what had been done with the grant of 25,000 l. voted last year for the same purpose. He knew that it had not been expended for the object for which it was intended, and therefore it was necessary that they should be told what had become of it before they were asked to vote more money. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer assured them that they would not pledge themselves to an approval of the two items to which he had referred, he should not oppose the Vote on account, but otherwise he should give it all the opposition in his power.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer in asking the House to go into Committee of Supply, had assured them that it was for the purpose of taking a Vote that was absolutely necessary to the public service. That being so, he thought nobody could refuse, on the part of the House, to grant to any Government that which was required to meet the exigencies of the public service, and for this purpose to go into Committee, as moved by the right hon. Gentleman. When in Committee it might be reasonable and proper to call the attention of such Members of the Government as were present in the House to the nature of the several items contained in the Vote, and to require explanation upon them. He also understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to report the Vote, if taken, tomorrow. He (Mr. Walpole) was glad that that was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, because when the House broke up yesterday it was under the impression that no business was to be undertaken to-day, but that it. would meet on Thursday for purposes of necessary business. This being the impression, there were not now so many Members in the House as he should desire to give an opinion with regard to the question of adjourning until Friday week. It would be premature, therefore, to enter into the discussion of that question at this moment; but he would observe that it had occurred to his own mind, that in the absence of the noble Lord who was now at the head of the Government, it would not be advisable to enter into the consideration
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of matters of importance until his return to that House.
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he wished to point out that this was merely a Vote on account, and, a residue being left, there would, of course, be an opportunity on a future occasion for the fullest discussion with regard to it. No one, in fact, was bound by this Vote to the Estimate itself. The hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) was mistaken in thinking that this was a Vote to raise money from the people—it was merely to authorise the Government to apply money which had already been raised. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had certainly expressed an opinion that the money voted last year would be sufficient for the expenditure of the year, and he continued still to think that that money then raised would be sufficient to meet the expenditure up to the 5th of April. That, however, was quite a different thing from the Government taking power to apply money already raised to certain purposes. It turned out that the Ordnance expenditure had been greater than was anticipated, and it was therefore necessary for the Government to apply to the House for authority to expend money to meet the excess. The hon. Baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) said he thought the House had been taken by surprise. Why, the Estimate had been lying on the table of the House for more than a week, but the invariable practice was to give notice the night before that a Vote of Supply was to be taken. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had explained that this was simply a Vote on account. to meet the pressing demands on the public service, and, therefore, no more than the usual notice was required. Of course it would be open to any hon. Member to raise a discussion in Committee, but it would not be very convenient for any such discussion to take place upon a Vote on account. The first important public business which had to be transacted was the passing of the Navy Estimates; but, as his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty was seriously ill, and as his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury could not attend the House for several days, the Navy Estimates could not well be proceeded with before Friday week, it being desirable that when they did come on for discussion both those Members of the Government should be present, as some important questions might possibly be raised.

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The Navy Estimates would be laid upon the table to-morrow, and the usual interval of about a week would be allowed to elapse before they were moved. On the whole, he thought the course most convenient for the public service would be for the House not to meet while the Government was in abeyance, and its Members could not appear in their places to answer questions that might be put to them.
MR. A. STAFFORDsaid, he did not rise to oppose Mr. Speaker leaving the chair, nor to raise any discussion upon the forms and usages of the House, which perhaps they had already discussed too much; and, if the statement that he had to make and the suggestion he had to press on the attention of the Government were of a nature that would admit of any delay, he would be the last person there who would offer any obstacle to the raising of the necessary means for carrying on the services of the country. But the question now before them could not be confined within the limits of the mere forms and usages of the House. Relating as it did to a Supplementary Ordnance Estimate to be proposed in Committee of Supply, it led them at once to the question of the state of our army. He therefore begged the attention of some Member of the Government to the statement he was about to make. He had received that morning a letter from Scutari, representing that the difficulties of the hospital there, instead of diminishing, were actually increasing. He (Mr. Stafford) could give the authority of the writer for a statement which would carry its own weight with it—namely, that, on an average, there were rather more than forty deaths occurring daily in that hospital, whereas when he (Mr. Stafford) was there the average was about half that number, and, further, that orders had come down from the Crimea directing the authorities of Scutari to prepare for the reception of 500 sick every week—that was, 500 independent of those who were sick and those who died at the camp. Now, coupled with these statements, there was an announcement made by a Gentleman whom he had never found to be wrong—substantially wrong—in the information he furnished—he meant the Gentleman who was engaged in the task (which he was sorry to see was about to terminate) of administering the Times Fund, which had been dispensed so admirably and so judiciously. The announcement which he made related to the removal of the medical
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inspector of transports from his office. Now, the matter of transports certainly exhibited the most disgraceful of the many disgraceful details connected with the arrangements for the wounded and sick soldiers; but Dr. M'Grigor was at last appointed as inspector of the transport ships, which he had fitted out in a more satisfactory manner than was done before, for the conveyance of these unfortunate men from Balaklava to Scutari.
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, that the hon. Member must be aware that there was no Member of the Government then present to answer him.
MR. A. STAFFORDsaid, he was not putting any questions to the Government, but wished to point out that this was a matter really depending on the next mail, and he besought the Government not to regard it as one of slight importance. If they did not confer on Dr. M'Grigor a signal mark of their approbation for the course he was pursuing in regard to the hospital service, they would do more to discourage the efforts of the younger surgeons, and more to perpetuate that system of routine which had proved fatal to hundreds and thousands of our soldiers, than they would do by any other step they could possibly adopt. He did not expect any Member of the Government to answer him on that occasion, because there was no one connected with the departments concerned then in his place; but as he (Mr. Stafford) might not have an opportunity of speaking to-morrow, and as the idea had been held out that the House might not meet until Friday week, he wished, in his place in Parliament, to appeal to whoever might be appointed to the highly responsible office of Secretary of State for the War Department and to point out to him that one thing which ought to be done without the least delay, and which would tend to the salvation of the army, or, at all events, to the alleviation of its distresses, was to bestow some signal mark of confidence upon Dr. M'Grigor. Having personally witnessed Dr. M'Grigor's labours by night and by day, and seen how sedulously he exerted himself to assist the ladies and the nurses when they first arrived, as well as how forward he was before all others to break through the trammels of routine when they obstructed the good working of the service, he could not refrain from expressing his conviction to the Government that unless they gave the countenance and encouragement he had indicated to that

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Gentleman, instead of daring to remove him, the greatest blame and guilt would rest upon them. He had felt constrained to make these observations, because when he learnt the treatment to which Dr. M'Grigor had been exposed, and when he found that the dispenser of the Times Fund, through whose agency they had been made cognisant of the abuses that had existed and were still existing in the hospital at Scutari was about to return home, he could not but look with dismay towards the future, and he thought it his duty to raise a voice of warning in Parliament.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I trust that, after the statement which my hon. Friend has considered it his duty to make, after, by the favour of the House, I had last the opportunity of replying, the House will extend their indulgence to me, and, without pretending that I rise to explain anything that I said before, will permit me to refer to what has fallen from my hon. Friend. I must remind my hon. Friend and the House that these times of great difficulty—times when feelings are deeply moved—are also the times when it is most necessary for the public service that both this House and individual Members of this House should observe that discretion in their proceedings by which those proceedings are made to operate for the advantage of the country. My hon. Friend says that he feels it his duty in his place in Parliament to refer to that which seems to him of material importance—to questions so greatly interesting and so important as those involved in the condition of the army.—[Mr. A. STAFFORD: And so urgent.] And so urgent. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend; but he must allow me to say that there are two modes of proceeding, either of which he might wisely have followed, according to his own discretion, but neither of which he has adopted upon the present occasion. One is, upon receiving statements of the kind which have reached him from Scutari, to carry them to the proper department of the Government.—[Mr. A. STAFFORD: There is no department.] The other is, to call to account the Members of the Government in this House, in case the subject-matter to which those statements refer has been neglected. Now, I apprehend that as my hon. Friend received the statements in question only this morning, he has not carried them to the proper department of the Government.
Mr. A. STAFFORD: What is the proper department?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: My hon. Friend interrupts me by asking what is the proper department. That is not a question very difficult to answer. I apprehend that if my hon. Friend went to any department of the Government connected with the administration of the war, he would find every disposition to forward his inquiries; and I should say, if I am to give a suggestion to my hon. Friend, that his proper course would be to apply to the Minister who is charged with the superintendence of all those departments, namely, the Secretary of State for War. The other course, I think, is, to call to account the Members of the Government in this House; but my hon. Friend has not taken that course either, because he has made a statement in the absence of every Gentleman connected with the War Department, and without giving any notice to those who are connected with them, which would have enabled them to supply him with an answer. I would ask my hon. Friend whether he thinks it can be desirable for the public service, or can promote the purpose which he has so much at heart, that he should produce a statement of this kind, with the authority of a Member of this House in his place, fresh as he has received it from the Crimea, in the absence of the possibility of any satisfactory reply being made to him. I make that appeal to the good feeling of my hon. Friend himself. At the same time, although I have received no notice from my hon. Friend upon this subject, I beg leave to say that my own recollection enables me to repudiate the inferences that would too naturally be drawn from the statement of my hon. Friend if it remained without an answer. He speaks of the state of things with respect to the hospital at Scutari, and of demands for additional accommodation there. Well, was my hon. Friend to infer that no provision had been made by the proper department of the Government? [Mr. A. STAFFORD: Certainly not.] I am not in a condition to state fully that provision; but what I want to point out to my hon. Friend is, the mischief of making statements in this House from which, if they stand alone, such inferences would be drawn as should not only wound the feelings of the country, but would not correspond to facts, and consequently greatly prejudice the public service. But by the kind indulgence of the House, and

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availing myself of my own most imperfect and casual recollection, I am in a condition to state that if, unhappily, from the course of circumstances, those enlarged demands have been made upon the hospital at Scutari, my right hon Friend, the late Secretary at War has not been behind his duty in making the best provision in his power to meet such demands. I am enabled to say, in the first place, that he has applied himself to devising the best means for making use of the army medical staff to the utmost extent to which its provisions could be stretched—a work of no small difficulty and labour; but, not content with that, he next considered in what way he could arrange a scheme for making the civil medical profession of the country available for the wants of the army, and only recently at the Treasury we gave our sanction to a plan devised by the late Secretary at War, under which he has organised a civil medical establishment, which will be sent out with the greatest rapidity, for the purpose of hospital superintendence [Mr. STAFFORD: That is at Smyrna!] Now any hon. Friend has previously made some remarks on the propriety of seeking for hospital accommodation at Smyrna; but he knows that it was quite right on the part of my right hon. Friend the late Secretary at War rather to trust to that place where there was ample means placed at his disposal by the Turkish Government than to go on seeking for insufficient extensions of temporary accommodation elsewhere. Therefore I hope my hon. Friend will see that there is no reason why he should not have made direct communications to my right hon. Friend the late Secretary at War; and I hope he will believe that, when he makes such communications, they will all be attended to with that diligence, with that readiness, and with that thankfulness to which they are justly entitled. And I hope he will believe further that every department of the Government will be ready to accept of his aid, as a ready and able co-operator in that great work in which the heart of every Englishman is so firmly engaged. My hon. Friend concluded his speech by some remarks, into a consideration of which I must beg the permission of the House to enter. He entered at some length into a consideration of the case of Dr. M'Grigor. He urged upon the Government the propriety of rewarding Dr. M'Grigor; but above all, said he, let not the Government dare to remove Dr. M'Grigor from the post he so ably fills.
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Now what does this really amount to? I will not say now that the necessity of the case justifies it at all; but it really is neither more nor less than for individual Members of Parliament to take into their own hands to direct the Executive Government with respect to those duties which, as long as you have an Executive Government, you cannot possibly detach from that Government; and if my hon Friend really would consider what is necessary to maintain the discipline of any service, I am sure he would see that deprecating removals from offices and invoking appointments to offices in any service by any Member of this House must paralyse entirely the Administration—must deprive punishment, where punishment is necessary—must deprive reward, where reward is necessary, of all their force and efficiency. I am sure my hon Friend, who himself has been in an official position in the superintendence of one of the great departments of the State, will see that, upon this occasion, he has under the influence of feelings with which every man must sympathise, a little overstepped the fair line of discussion. At all events, whether I am right in that opinion or not, I am sure my hon. Friend will be content to acknowledge that that matter with respect to the appointment or removal of particular persons in particular situations had better remain in the hands of the Executive Government. The Government will form, and will act upon, their own judgment in the first instance, and then it will be for any hon. Member who may object to the course they have taken to call them to account for their conduct.
Mr. A. STAFFORDsaid, he wished to say a word in explanation. His right hon. Friend had said that he ought to have applied to the proper authorities; but he had thought—on seeing it announced in the Notice Paper that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War was to move certain Supplementary Estimates—he had thought he should see that right hon. Gentleman in his place, and that he would then be prepared to answer the interrogatories that might be put to him without notification on his (Mr. Stafford's) part. As far as the hospital accommodation went, he had never by any implication stated that the right hon. Gentleman who was recently Secretary at War, had not met the circumstances of the case as far as it was in his power to meet them. On the contrary, he knew that the right hon. Gentleman

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had exerted himself in the most praiseworthy manner to provide ample hospital accommodation. With respect to providing additional hospital accommodation at Smyrna, he was the very person who had strongly urged that subject on the consideration of the Government.
MR. WHITESIDEsaid, that nothing had surprised him so much as the calmness and composure with which every Member of the Government had spoken of the state of things at present existing. At a time when the public mind was excited to the last degree by the disasters that were befalling our army day by day, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had his feelings perfectly under control, and could speak of a perishing army with a degree of tranquillity that was most astonishing. Last night, by accident, an hon. Member of that House came into a place where he (Mr. Whiteside) was, and gave him a description of the sufferings of our troops in those hospitals—sufferings which he had witnessed with his own eyes. That was the reason of his addressing the House on the present occasion. He did not think that any Member of the House was bound to apologise for venturing to open his lips there, or that they ought rather discreetly to visit a Secretary at War upon whom the censure of the House had fallen. He had heard an hon. Member of that House, whom he did not now see in his place, describe the wretchedness and horrors of that hospital at Scutari. He heard him say, that at one and the same time he saw sixty of the bodies of our unhappy soldiers stitched up and arranged ready to be carried out for burial. And he said he had heard from the lips of the unhappy men, taken in what are called transport ships to Scutari, that they rejoiced in being able to lie down on the deck of the vessel, in order that they might have the miserable satisfaction of dying where they could have rest. He (Mr. Whiteside) was persuaded there was nothing regular at Balaklava or at Scutari hut confusion. In that the Government shone. In that every department of the State had been pre-eminent. In that respect it had justly earned the censure of Parliament, and he must admire the principles of our Parliamentary constitution, which, after a Secretary at War had been, according to his own statement, formally censured for misconduct in the administration of the department confided to his care, placed him, by a shuffling of the cards, in another and a higher department of the Government.
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And, according to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we were now to apply deferentially to the head of a department who had been censured for misconduct, and in whom we had no confidence, and to say to him, "Sir, be so good as to consider the state of things at Scutari." He should like to ascertain correctly whether the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly accurate in certain of the statements he made on a recent occasion. He said that there were 30,000 effective men before Sebastopol. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman was in general mathematically correct in all the statements he made; but, being under impressions derived from some of his friends who had shared the dangers of the campaign, he had certainly listened to the right hon. Gentleman's statements with the utmost astonishment, That House had, however, resolved to have an inquiry into this matter, and he said, let it be a bonâ fide; and searching inquiry. If the result should be to acquit the Ministry, well and good; but if, on the contrary, it should prove adverse to them, as he thought it would, he trusted that there was sufficient spirit left in the House of Commons not to rest content with a mere vote of censure, but to follow it up by further steps to its legitimate conclusion.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, that having been connected with the army for more than five-and-twenty years, he thought he might venture to say a word on the present occasion. He considered that the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Northamptonshire need offer no apology to the House for having brought under its notice the circumstances to which he had called its attention; and although the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer read them a lecture, having only a few minutes before told them that probably they must adjourn for ten days, he thought the circumstances needed no explanation. In a letter which he had just received from the Crimea there occurred the following words—
"Can it be believed? The sickness in the camp is most dreadful. We bury a thousand a week, and, including all the reinforcements, the strength of the English army is not more than 11,000 men. Everything is mismanaged by the authorities here."
The right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary at War had told them distinctly, in his place in Parliament the other night, that the army was 30,000 strong. He (Colonel Knox) denied that that was the fact; and he put it to the House was there

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any time to be lost while right hon. Gentlemen were shuffling the different departments, and the Gentleman who was responsible for the War Department was thus absolved and was to be placed in another office. Then they were given to understand that they were to wait for ten days, and those facts were not to be urged upon the persons temporarily holding office, and they were not at all to apply their minds to the remedying of the great evils that were pressing upon them. He had no wish to hamper the Government on these facts, but he spoke as a soldier. He could not contain himself on such a subject, for it was notorious that their army was perishing, and it was only a matter of days for the thing to be brought to a climax. Under these circumstances he thought that the lecture the right hon. Gentleman had just read to his hon. Friend (Mr. Stafford) was very ill-timed and much misplaced.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he could not as a soldier allow the discussion to close without saying a few words. He was certainly not disposed to receive any lecture from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Our army consisted of but 11,000 men, and not of 30,000, as had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman, and out of these 11,000 he believed only about 2,000 to be able to take the field. There were 6,000 men in the hospitals at Balaklava, and it was so impossible to get any assistance that only the most prompt and vigorous measures could put a stop to the disasters of our army. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if they had any complaints to make they ought to apply to the Executive Government. He thought it most unreasonable that that course should be forced upon them. The Executive Government had been accused, tried, and found guilty of incompetence by an immense majority of the House of Commons within the last few days; and yet it was to these Gentlemen, incompetent for the performance of their duties, that they were expected to apply. When the Committee of the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) came on, he hoped that free scope would be given to those persons who were acquainted with the state of the army. They wanted no generals from the Crimea as witnesses; they had abundance of evidence already in this country to show what was the state of the army. To say now that a new medical staff was to be organised, after the half of
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the army had been lost, was far from being any remedy or satisfaction. He saw with despair Gentlemen pronounced incompetent again resuming office. More than half an army had been destroyed, and the rest would never be fit for service, even in England. Sebastopol, he had no doubt, would be ultimately taken by the French army, whose wants were properly attended to; but he predicted that, if the late Government returned to power, the surviving part of our army would soon suffer the same unhappy fate as that to which their previous mismanagement had already consigned hundreds and thousands of their brethren in arms.
SIR WILLIAM MOLESWORTHsaid, he rose, not for the purpose of prolonging the debate, but for the purpose of correcting some of the misstatements that had fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for Portarlington (Col. Dunne), and others. It had been stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Marlow (Col. Knox), that the deaths in the army amounted to so large a number as 1,000 per week. The amount of sickness prevalent in the army was certainly very great; but he could assure the hon. and gallant Member that that statement was altogether incorrect. He (Sir W. Molesworth) had carefully examined the official returns from the army, and he could assure the hon. and gallant Member that his statement was essentially wrong. It had been asserted that the Government had misrepresented the facts; but the Government were perfectly prepared to substantiate by official returns that the statements they made were accurate. The hon. and gallant Member for Portarlington had confused the number of men under arms with the total number of men in the army. The total number of men of all ranks in the army in the Crimea and fit for service, including men under arms, cavalry, artillery, engineers, and the naval auxiliary force, was not less than 30,000, according to the last official returns. As Her Majesty's Government had resigned, he hoped this debate would not be continued, because the responsible Ministers who could answer these questions were absent, and it was impossible for those who were not acquainted with the specific details to reply to them completely.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he must beg to explain that he had not included the naval auxiliary force. He had only mentioned the number of British soldiers under arms.
The House then resolved itself into Committee of Supply.
On a Vote being proposed of 1,200,000 l. to be granted to Her Majesty to defray the excess of war expenditure,
In reply to a question from Mr. HENLEY,
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that, in agreeing to the Vote on account, no hon. Member would stand committed when the discussion occurred on the proposal that the House should vote the residue.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he thought the House was rather taken by surprise by this Vote. It was not only a very large sum, but the noble Lord the Member for the City of London had distinctly stated that the Navy Estimates would be taken first. And then it was rather too much to move a grant for the Ordnance department when the Secretary at War was not in his place. The House last year was led into some great error or miscalculation by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for they had now to provide for 3,340,000 l. more than had been stated by him. He wished now to know whether there was to be any supplementary estimate for the army, or whether, adding this 3,340,000 l. to what had been appropriated by the Act of last year, there would be enough for the whole war expenditure of the year in the particular departments of the army, navy, ordnance, militia, packet service, &c.?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERit said, he was anxious not to detain the Committee, but the hon. Baronet had asked him two distinct questions, to which he hoped he might be permitted to reply. He had been asked first, whether there was to be any further supplementary estimate for the war; and secondly, whether he was prepared to justify the expectations he held out to the House in the month of August last, or to excuse himself for not having fulfilled those expectations? He begged leave to observe, that on all occasions when he had adverted to the expenses to be incurred in the war, he had declined the responsibility of giving any assurance to the House. He had stated that the House was entitled to the best calculations and conjectures he could make; but as to making assurances with reference to expenditure in time of war, that was a responsibility which he would under no circumstances assume. But, in the present case, he would venture to say this much, that he was sure no supplementary estimates would be required for the year 1854–5. With respect to the second ques-
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tion, the right hon. Baronet had entirely misunderstood the assurance he gave to the House last summer. What he then did was this:—Having urged the different departments to raise their estimates to an outside point, so as to cover their expenditure, if they could, he then proposed to the House a vote of credit to the amount of 3,100,000 l., which was placed at the command of the Legislature, so as to cover all the supplementary estimates, with a margin of 3,000,000 l. further, in case additional funds should be required. He therefore thought that the hon. Baronet should be satisfied, and that he should feel that when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) took a margin for 3,000,000 l., and now demanded 3,340,000 l., he had not grievously fallen out in his calculations.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he wished to know whether any estimate had been taken for money to be laid out in quartering the militia in Ireland? The Government were still going on in the old expensive and extravagant system of billeting the militia, while it was known, and had been pointed out to them, that an enormous saving to the country could be effected by building houses for the men—a saving of not less than 10,000 l.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the matter to which the hon. and gallant Colonel referred was no doubt one very well deserving of consideration, but it was in no way whatever connected with the Vote before the Committee.
Vote agreed to.
Resolved—
"That a sum, not exceeding 1,200,000 l., be granted to Her Majesty, on account, towards defraying the estimated Excess of the Ordnance Expenditure beyond the Grants for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1855."
MR. WILSONsaid, there was a notice before the House for a Supplementary Estimate for the Naval as well as the Ordnance Department, and that paper had been also referred to a Committee of Supply. It would be very desirable that a Vote should be taken on that Estimate as soon as possible, in order that it might go to the House in the same way as the Vote on account of the Ordnance. He therefore hoped the House would agree that to-morrow the orders should take precedence of the notices of Motion.
Motion agreed to.
The House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.