Commons Sitting of 10 May 1854

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, he would suggest to the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Sotheron), who had charge of this Bill, that it would be much better to refer a subject of the delicate and painful nature embraced by the Bill to a Select Committee, especially as he saw that notice had been given of a great number of Amendments, in order that such Select Committee might consider not only the particular clauses of the measure, but the whole subject. Evidence might be taken before the Committee, and a satisfactory arrangement arrived at. It was evident from the petitions presented that no subject had ever made a greater commotion among the working classes. At the same time every one gave credit to the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sotheron) for the kindness of his intentions, and the conciliatory spirit which he had manifested in considering any suggestions in reference to the present Bill.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, he could bear testimony to the conciliatory disposition of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sotheron), to whom he had introduced several deputations, who left him with the impression that he was only anxious to do good to the working classes. He (Mr. Bright) believed that a strong opinion existed at the Home Office with respect to some of the clauses of the Bill; and it was impossible for any Member who had received deputations not to see that the Bill, if passed in its present shape, would not work, but would only produce something in the nature of a revolt among the population of the north of England, who were deeply interested in the subject. He could hardly conceive, under these circumstances, that the hon.
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Gentleman would refuse to allow the Bill to go to a Select Committee, particularly as the subject was a most delicate one, and any concerned not only the money, but the feelings of the people.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the Bill be committed to a Select Committee," instead thereof.
MR. HUMEsaid, he should support the Motion for a Select Committee. The question affected large masses of the community, and not only the Bill, but the whole subject, should be considered in a Committee upstairs. He had found by experience that when individuals or deputations were allowed to state their own views before a Committee, the latter were enabled to draw the just and proper line between the different interests. It would very much abate the anxiety out of doors if the Government declared in favour of a reference of the whole subject to a Committee upstairs.
MR. E. C. EGERTONsaid, he trusted that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sotheron) would accede to the proposition for referring the Bill to a Select Committee. The Bill, though meant in the kindest spirit by the hon. Gentleman, would operate very hardly on some societies. The whole subject should be considered in a Select Committee, for there existed such a variety of different Acts in connection with it that the precise law was difficult to be understood. If the question were inquired into fully, the result would be increased confidence among the working classes, and increased desire to provide for their own funerals; and, at the same time, many of those mischiefs and deplorable occurrences which had arisen out of the existing state of things might be prevented in future.
MR. BROTHERTONsaid, he also must urge the propriety of appointing a Select Committee. He had not recollected so much excitement among the working classes for many years past as now existed on this subject.
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that he had no objection to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, but he did not think it was desirable that they should enter upon the investigation of the whole subject; for the House must recollect that there had been several previous Committees of inquiry into friendly societies, and that they had obtained all the information upon the subject which could possibly be elicited by a new inquiry, The only effect of thus

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extending the labours of the Committee would be to defer that legislation which every one admitted to be required. It was the less necessary to do so, because he observed that most of the petitions which had been presented were directed against the 4th and 5th clauses of the Bill. Now he saw that the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Sotheron) proposed to omit the former clause, and very materially to modify the latter.
MR. WILSON PATTENsaid, that greater objections to the Bill had proceeded from that part of the country with which he was connected than from any other. Those objections were confined chiefly to the 3rd and 4th clauses, and if the Bill were sent to a Select Committee, those clauses, and not the whole matter, should be the subject of consideration; for with reference to the question itself sufficient information had already been obtained.
MR. ROEBUCKsaid, that the Bill had in fact now passed from the hands of its original promoters into those of the Government, and he therefore wished to know what were their views with respect to the course which the House should pursue?
MR. FITZROYsaid, that the hon. and learned Member was not quite correct in stating that the Bill had passed into the hands of Government. The only Amendment of which he had given notice referred to the 3rd clause. He thought that no case had been made out for a change in the law upon the point embraced in that clause; and his Amendment consisted simply of a clause taken from the existing Act, 14 & 15 Vict. c. 15. This Bill had no doubt created great uneasiness amongst the members of these societies; and although the petitions which had been presented abundantly showed that great ignorance prevailed with respect to its provisions, still when there was such an excited state of feeling on the part of great numbers of the working classes, he thought it was advisable that satisfactory evidence should be adduced in support of any proposed alterations in the existing law. With a view to such an investigation, he thought it was highly desirable that the House should adopt the proposition to refer the whole subject to a Select Committee. He was aware that there had been previous Committees and previous legislation on this subject; but the fact was that this had only complicated the subject, and made legislation more difficult.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, that even in
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the quiet neighbourhood he represented, Bath, the working classes were very much excited on the subject of this Bill. He hoped that the House would adopt the proposition of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), and refer the whole subject to a Select Committee.
MR. LIDDELLsaid, he could also bear testimony to the strong feeling which this measure had excited amongst the labouring classes; he should support the proposition to refer it to a Select Committee.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that it seemed to be generally admitted that the House was not at present in a position to go into Committee upon this Bill. He thought that, considering the nature of the subject, the parties who were interested, and the character of the interests involved, it would be advisable the subject should receive the most mature consideration before they passed a new Act, and he should therefore support the proposition for referring the Bill to a Select Committee. At the same time he hoped that the Committee would not be made the means of delaying that legislation upon the subject which all admitted to be necessary, but that they would strictly confine their inquiries to those points upon which sufficient information had not been elicited by former inquiries.
MR. ATHERTONsaid, that so many Acts had been passed with reference to these societies that nothing could be more difficult for a practising lawyer than to tell the members of many of them by what particular Act they were governed, or even whether they were not exposed to the crossfire of two contradictory Acts. Under these circumstances, it was absolutely necessary that the law on this subject should be consolidated; and as he believed that this could not be done without further information than was at present in the possession of the House, he hoped that the whole subject would be referred to a Select Committee.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that, after what had fallen from the hon. and learned Member for Durham (Mr. Atherton)—the correctness of whose statements he was not at all prepared to deny—it was perfectly clear that this subject was one which should be taken up by Government. A private Member might introduce a Bill to provide a remedy for an existing evil; but it was perfectly impossible that he could undertake to consolidate a multiplicity of previously existing Statutes, and to prepare one which should embrace the whole law on the subject. It would be quite impossible to bring

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in a Bill to consolidate all the Statutes on this subject during the present Session, considering it was so far advanced. The question, then, was, was information wanted on this subject? He very much inclined to think that there were very few cases which did not come within one or other of the categories, respecting which evidence was taken several Sessions ago. It was at his hon. Friend's discretion whether he would accede to the proposal now made to send the subject back to a Select Committee—to refer only a portion of it would be completely idle. He thought the Government already in possession of sufficient information to enable them to legislate with effect. There were many principles in the clauses of the present Bill which had excited the greatest jealousy, and which must probably be altered in Committee; but this was a matter wholly distinct from the question of consolidation.
MR. HINDLEYsaid, he must protest against the inference which had been drawn in some quarters from the return presented relative to mortality amongst children, as a libel upon the character of the working classes of this country. The return itself was manifestly imperfect, but it by no means warranted the suspicions spread on this subject, or the accusation which had been founded on it, and he should regard any legislative Act conceived in this spirit as an insult to the working classes.
VISCOUNT PALIMERSTONsaid, he was prepared to assent to the proposal which had been made by his hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Mr. FitzRoy) to refer this Bill to a Select Committee, with the view undoubtedly of securing a fair and satisfactory investigation of the subject. There were several questions arising out of it, which might with advantage be submitted to the examination of a Committee, some of which had been touched upon by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Henley), or by his hon. Friends near him. The first of these undoubtedly was, whether it would be expedient or useful to consolidate all the laws relating to this subject. This was a proposal attended certainly with considerable difficulties, as suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, but it was a fit subject for consideration, one, perhaps, more belonging to the Government than to a Committee, but on which a Committee without doubt might be useful, as showing all the inconveniences, whatever they might be, which arose from the multitude of Statutes, and the uncertainty of their application to any one particular case. With
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respect to the general regulations of these friendly societies, of course the Report of the Committee which sat some years ago would be referred to any Committee that might be appointed, and it would have the benefit of the inquiries of the former Committee, which would, to a certain degree, supersede further inquiries, or direct them into the proper course in which such inquiries ought to be conducted. The point, however, which had laid the foundation of the various proposals now before the House, was the question of the regulations applicable to burial societies. The point which had excited the greatest objection to the Bill before the House was that referred to by the hon. Member behind him (Mr. Hindley)—namely, its application to burial societies. This was a very painful subject, and he would rather avoid stating the opinion which he entertained respecting it. All he would say was, that the return adverted to by the hon. Member did not, in his opinion, bear out the conclusion which the hon. Member seemed to have drawn from it. The return simply stated that there were no means of ascertaining whether the parents of certain children were members of burial clubs. The hon. Member had put a construction on the return which it would not bear. Upon that question he was asked, in the early part of this Session, by a noble Lord opposite, whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bring in any measure affecting it. He had then stated it was his intention to do so; at the same time, when the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Sotheron) brought in his Bill, and his hon. Friend (Mr. Bright) proposed an Amendment to it, that appeared to him sufficiently to satisfy the purpose which Her Majesty's Government had in view, and he dropped the intention of bringing in any separate Bill. He must say, however, that his own opinion was so strong upon that point, that if no other Member were to propose to the House any legislation upon the subject, he should himself feel it his duty to do so. So far from concurring with his hon. Friend (Mr. Hindley) in thinking that any legislation on the subject was an insult to the lower classes, he thought, on the contrary, that the honour of the country, the credit of the lower classes, their dearest personal and private feelings, were concerned in placing it beyond the possibility of doubt or imputation that any such suspicions as had lately prevailed in this matter could, by any possibility, be founded in fact. And,

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therefore, in the interest of the lower classes, and with the view of consulting their honourable feelings, and rescuing them from imputations which had, not of yesterday only, but for a long time back, prevailed upon that subject, he thought some legislation was absolutely required; and he should think it his duty, if the Committee were not appointed, in another Session to propose some further enactment on that subject.
MR. MILESsaid, he was sure he was only expressing the feelings of a great part of the community when he said that the Government, even this Session, ought to introduce a measure which would put an end to all inducement to the poorer classes to destroy their children.
VISCOUNT GODERICHsaid, he thought if the Government were to bring in any other measure, there would not be the slightest use in referring this Bill to a Select Committee. He could bear testimony to the excitement felt on this subject throughout the country; and it did appear extremely hard that for the purpose of preventing certain evils which might have prevailed possibly in certain agricultural districts—["No."] He had no interest in calumniating the agricultural classes, but he was perfectly sure that evils of the kind alluded to did not occur in large societies; and it appeared extremely hard that, on this account, restrictions should be introduced which would cripple the utility of nine societies out of ten.
MR. COBDENsaid, it appeared to him that the observations of the noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department were defective in one important respect. The noble Lord stated his Resolution, Ids unalterable determination, to legislate on this matter, and intimated that he had facts on which this legislation would be founded, but that they were too painful to be communicated to the House. Now, he apprehended that what they had to do there was to consider what was just towards the community at large, not what was delicate to the House, or to the feelings of the noble Lord; and if he had facts which would warrant the insertion of the clause they were now discussing, he thought that, in justice to the people of this country, the noble Lord was bound to state those facts.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I beg the hon. Member's pardon; I did not state anything about facts. I said the subject was a painful one, and that I would rather not state my opinions.
MR. COBDENwould then, if the noble Lord would allow him, infer from what he now said that the noble Lord disclaimed having any facts at all. Would the noble Lord admit that? [Viscount PALMERSTON: No.] Then he supposed it would be un-parliamentary in him to say, that he thought the noble Lord was trifling with the House in the course he was now pursuing. [Viscount PALMERSTON: I do not admit that, either.] He was sorry to see anything like a jocular spirit manifested on this point; and must remark, that he thought the noble Lord had been particularly unfortunate in his attempts at jocularity. This was no laughing matter. To the noble Lord belonged the merit of having, on previous occasions, extracted jokes from grave subjects. This was not a subject which the noble Lord should select for the exercise of his jocularity. This was a slur on the character of the working classes, and, being so, it must be a reproach to the whole nation. Would not foreign newspapers fasten on this matter, and state as a reproach to England, that we were obliged to pass laws to prevent parents from murdering their children for the sake of 31.? There had been cases in which persons had murdered others for money; but those cases had not been confined to the working classes, nor had the victims always been children. There was the celebrated case in which Madame Laffarge was the principal actress, and the House would recollect another case, which recently formed the subject of a trial in Scotland. Were there any grounds for believing that the destruction of children with the view of gaining money by these deaths was a general practice? Nothing of the kind. He maintained that there was no record in the history of any country in the world of a systematic destruction of children after they have arrived at an age when nature asserts her claim upon the affections of the parents. It had been alleged that in parts of India, and among our friends the Turks, there existed a system by which births were prevented, or children were destroyed immediately after birth; but he said again, there was no evidence of the systematic murder of children after they had survived the period of infancy. If parents would destroy their children in order to obtain 3l., they would destroy them in order to avoid the expense of maintaining them. If the labouring classes would commit such crimes from such influences, the case could only be

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effectually met by raising the general character of the people.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The hon. Member has been pleased to impute to me that I treated this subject with jocularity. I appeal to the House if anything I said could in the slightest degree bear out so unfounded an accusation. I said, on the contrary, that it was with the greatest pain I approached it; and if the House laughed when the hon. Member would persist in imputing to me, time after time, the very reverse of what I had stated, all I said was to deny that his interpretation of my words was well founded. The hon. Member put words into my mouth which I had never used; I was obliged to say I had not used them, and the House only laughed at the various attempts of the hon. Member to fasten on me language which I entirely repudiate.
MR. CROSSLEYsaid, he only rose to say that, having received various deputations during the recess on the subject of friendly societies, he had some acquaintance with the feelings prevalent among the working classes on this subject. There could be no doubt that some imposture had been practised upon these societies in the manner adverted to by the noble Lord, and the working classes, he had no doubt, would be glad to have any provision inserted in the Bill which might render the commission of such offences impossible in future.
MR. SOTHERONsaid, he need scarcely say, in reference to the suggestion made, that he was in the hands of the House, and should be ready to acquiesce in what seemed the general feeling of the House, not to press forward the Bill on the present occasion, but to refer it to a Select Committee, The principal point on which the discussion had turned was one of a character which he thought would be much better discussed in a Select Committee than in a Committee of the whole House. It might be that the Government had evidence enough regarding the suspicions of which they had heard much, as to infanticide being extensively practised by members of burial societies; but although a great deal of evidence had been taken by the Committee which sat in 1849 respecting burial societies generally, yet he was sure there was no such impression abroad generally, and that there was nothing in the public mind which in any way corresponded with what he believed to be the impression in the mind of the Government.
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If there were indeed facts which could be adduced to substantiate such a horrible suspicion—if more than a proportionate number of persons guilty of this dreadful crime could be found amongst members of burial clubs or friendly societies, then let the evidence to that effect be brought forward, and let a Committee of that House be armed with the full powers necessary to elicit the facts. One circumstance that occurred to him in connection with the subject was, that at the assizes of last autumn, in Liverpool, the grand jury made a presentment calling the attention of the Court to the increase of this horrible crime, and the presiding Judge thanked them for their presentment, giving an opinion that some further legislation was required; but the very day afterwards a person who was charged with the crime was tried and acquitted. If they were forced to the conclusion that a disposition to this crime was to some extent fostered by friendly societies, then no doubt legislation would be required; but the question remained behind—what was the best mode of dealing with the subject? He did not think that the mode suggested by the Amendment would be the best way of attaining the object. The reason why he (Mr. Sotheron) did not introduce the clause as suggested was, that he believed it would be entirely inoperative; but the main reason why he objected to enact that the money assured should not be paid to the parents was, that he knew no cause why those poor, but industrious and provident persons, should not be allowed to insure for the object professed. Hundreds of thousands were induced to join burial societies, not simply for the purpose of discharging the expenses of the burial, but in order that they might have the charge of the funeral themselves, instead of its being handed over to the Poor Law authorities. He would ask whether that was not a sentiment which ought to be applauded? He confessed that, in agreeing to postpone this measure, he did it with considerable regret, for he had looked forward to this day as a means of disabusing several hon. Members, as well as persons out of doors, of a misunderstanding which they appeared to entertain with regard to the nature and objects of this Bill. Some petitions had been presented against the Bill which clearly showed him that the writers of them had never read the Bill itself. He had received a great number of letters, in which the writers stated that they had no idea that Par-

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liament should put its hands into their pockets or have the handling of their money; thus showing that they were labouring entirely under a mistake as to the real object of the Bill. Those parties appeared to fancy that when a society came under the operation of the law, from that moment it would cease to be independent. He believed it was the general opinion that the law was hard and unfair towards those societies which were not registered, every one of which was liable under the Joint Stock Companies Act to a penalty. Now, it was a peculiar feature of the case that regulations benefiting one society were found totally inapplicable or even adverse to the interests of another, and thus the difficulty of dealing with it was materially enhanced. Another difficulty was that they were dealing with purely voluntary associations, and the very moment they put on the screw in the direction that Parliament thought desirable, the association would at once be dissolved, and there would be nobody applicable to the bearing of the Act. If they were to deal with the subject effectively, they must carry along with them the public opinion of the community. The hon. and learned Member for Durham (Mr. Atherton) had recommended that the subject of consolidation should be referred to this Select Committee. Now, there were fifteen or sixteen Acts in force, under every one of which various societies had been registered, and if they consolidated those Acts, the operations of the societies for insurance would be materially interfered with, the powers as to the extent of insurance differing considerably. The Bill secured existing societies in the possession of all rights and privileges now enjoyed by them, and he was afraid they could not go beyond this. He would feel extremely obliged to the hon. and learned Attorney General if he would point out in what manner all those Acts could be resolved into one, and that single Act made applicable to each of those registered societies. By assenting to refer the Bill to a Select Committee he by no means considered that the measure was intended to be shelved. Apart from the necessity of some such law being enacted, he would remind the House that in the course of the present year all the Acts relating to friendly societies would expire. It was, therefore, essential that some legislation on the subject should take place. It would be unadvisable that the whole extent of the subject should
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be investigated by the Committee, as one wider in its dimensions could not be conceived, and a full inquiry, he did not hesitate to say, would find a Committee in occupation from that time up to next Christmas; but the object in view would be fully attained by sending the Bill before a Committee for examination. The existing law, he was glad to think, had answered admirably, as under it between 4,000 and 5,000 societies had been registered, and it had not been thought desirable to introduce many new provisions into the present measure, though some had been rendered necessary by change of circumstances, by new difficulties that had arisen, or by new descriptions of investment which had sprung up with the expanding industry and enterprise of the country. Upon some points now introduced for the first time, and particularly the very grave one to which allusion had been made that day, he was highly desirous that the Committee should have full means of inquiring, and if no other Member proposed it, he would himself move that they should have full powers of sending for persons and papers. The object of the measure might be stated generally to be the same as that of the former Act, the facilitating as much as possible the formation of provident associations of this excellent kind, without imposing any other restrictions than might be necessary for their maintenance and security. The magnitude of these societies could not be exaggerated. The members belonging to them were to be counted by hundreds of thousands. He believed the number of male inhabitants of England and Wales, by the last Census, was something short of 9,000,000. Of these there were of course a great number who had no necessity to belong to these friendly societies. The number of societies that were known to exist was about 20,000. These were all registered. The number unregistered might be taken at half that figure —making 30,000 societies. The minimum number of members was 150 to each society, and the maximum 300. This would give in the result upwards of half the male population of the country as members of some society or the other. But it was not the number only that was important. These individuals belonged to the very best and most valuable class of the community. They were the real support of the country. They were men who by the very fact of their being members of these societies showed that they entertained

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strong feelings of self-respect. It was on behalf of these his fellow-countrymen, who were men of sterling integrity and resolution, and who insisted on their rights, that he now pleaded, and he felt assured that he should not plead in vain. In conclusion, he would express his full assent to the appointment of the Select Committee.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he rose to discharge a very pleasing duty, that of expressing the thanks of many thousands of his constituents to the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down for the pains he had taken on this subject, and the courtcous manner in which he had treated the various deputations that had waited upon him. The country was deeply indebted to the hon. Gentleman, and, for himself, he would, as far as possible, avoid giving him any more trouble on the subject.
MR. W. BROWNsaid, he cordially concurred in the meed of praise offered to the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Sotheron). He was induced, however, to address the House because it happened that he was the foreman of the grand jury in Lancashire which had occasion to call the attention of the Judge to a case of what the grand jury considered to be infanticide, although the party was afterwards acquitted. It seemed then to be a prevailing opinion that the subject should be taken into consideration by the Government. About the same time the grand jury of York had a similar case. The chaplain of the house of correction addressed a letter to him (Mr. Brown), stating what he believed to be the main cause of infanticide. It certainly was never intended to throw any reflection on these societies in the aggregate, but at the same time it was supposed that advantage might be taken by some parties to make a claim on the societies' funds. He agreed with the hon. Member (Mr. Sotheron) that there was no class of people who deserved more consideration than those who were members of these societies. Still, he felt himself justified in taking the same view of the subject of burial societies as the learned Judges had done; but in saying so, he disclaimed the slightest wish to throw any imputation upon the honour and integrity of the great mass of the members of those societies.
MR. COWANsaid, he wished to make one suggestion. Great injury had been done to certain societies by the misapplication of the funds and by the misconduct of the managers. Expensive annual proces-
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sions and dinners, attended with a great deal of dissipation, were paid for out of the societies' funds. He thought the clause in the Bill to prevent the misapplication of the funds was not sufficiently clear, and that a penalty should be attached to such misconduct. He entirely concurred in the observations made by preceding speakers, as to the benefits which his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Sotheron) had been the means of conferring on the working classes of the country, and he trusted the suggestion he had made would meet with the attention of the Select Committee.
MR. I. BUTTsaid, he entertained a very strong objection to the 34th clause, which enacted that all penalties imposed by the Act should be recoverable by any person who should institute proceedings for them, and that one-half of the penalty should be paid to the informer, as that would be introducing among the working classes a system of espionnage, and would go far to destroy the character of Englishmen. He also objected to those clauses in the Bill which implied that the working men of this country could not associate together for the purpose of contributing to a fund for the burial of their children, without being liable to yield to the temptation of murdering those children for the sake of the money to be obtained for their burial. Such provisions offered a gross insult to the working people of this country. Although it was now proposed country. to omit those clauses, still it was in the power of the Government hereafter to reinsert them; it was therefore very desirable that there should be some understanding come to that the clauses were not to be at a future time reinserted.
MR. BONHAM-CARTERsaid, he thought it would be very much to be regretted if it got abroad among the working classes that it was the intention of the Legislature to impose stringent regulations concerning matters about which they were very jealous, and which so materially affected their own private concerns. The object of the present Bill was to remove certain disabilities which at present existed. The Committee of 1849, on inquiring into this subject, discovered that these societies, consisting of many thousands of members, were subject to all sorts of penalties, and the object of the present measure was to relieve them from those clogs and to empower them to proceed against dishonest trustees and others. This Bill was, in

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fact, a great relaxation of former Acts. The last Act did not allow any person under six years of age to become a member at all. The consequence was that a great number of illegal societies were brought into existence. He believed the working classes were well satisfied with the treatment of this question by his hon. Friend (Mr. Sotheron); and he thought such a question might be much better dealt with by a private Member, to whom there was much greater access, than it could be by a Member of the Government.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
Words added; Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill committed to a Select Committee.

HUSTINGS EXPENSES BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. HUMEsaid, he would now move that this Bill be read a second time. A Committee had sat to inquire into the subject of which the Bill treated, and their Report contained a detail of the expenses which were incurred by candidates in different districts, and affirmed the principle that individuals who wished to be elected representatives of the people ought to be placed in the House of Commons free of expense. That was the principle upon which this Bill was based. The Committee also recommended that in all contested elections an allowance should be made to the returning officer for the expenses he had incurred, which they thought ought to be borne by the district in which the election took place, and this Bill was intended to carry out the object of the Committee. At present, several notices had to be given by the sheriff for the expense, for which no provision was made; and although it was sometimes paid by candidates, payment could not be enforced. These and other details would be matters for discussion in Committee. All he asked the House at present was to adopt the principle that Members should be returned to Parliament free of expense, and that the constituencies they represented should bear the expense of their election. It was objected that if the check of election expenses were taken away, there would be a great increase in the number of candidates, but there were various modes in which this and other inconveniences might be obviated, and he
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should be ready, at a future stage of the Bill, to adopt any suggestions which would assist in carrying out its object. He, therefore, hoped the House would now agree to the second reading of the Bill.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
MR. PACKEsaid, he would suggest that the hon. Member for Montrose should postpone the second reading of this Bill until the Committee which was now sitting upon the Bribery and Elections Bills should have given their Report, or else that this Bill should be referred to that Committee.
MR. PHINNsaid, he hoped that his hon. Friend would not postpone the second reading, by agreeing to which the House would only affirm the important principle that those Gentlemen who came into that House for the purpose of discharging a public duty should not be put to any expense in doing so. He could not see what connection there could be between this Bill and those which had been referred to the Committee referred to by the hon. Member who last addressed them, except with regard to some of the details. One part of this question certainly raised a considerable difficulty. At present, persons were constantly coming forward as candidates without having the support of any great portion of a constituency, who delivered a speech upon the hustings, who were applauded by that portion of the constituency which possessed no votes, but who were checked in going to the poll from the circumstance that they would become liable for a considerable amount of expenses by so doing. The constituencies ought to have the choice of the best candidates, but he thought it would be worth while to introduce some provision into the Bill by which a candidate should be obliged to defray his share of the election expenses, unless he polled a given number of votes. He had obtained a return of the sums which were charged by returning officers to candidates at elections, which disclosed a system of extortion that the House ought to put a stop to. In one borough as much as 25 l. had been charged as the fee for the return, and in the course of his professional experience a number of cases had come under his notice, in which similar charges, perfectly illegal, had been made; but it was generally to the interest of the candidate to pay them without dispute, as,

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otherwise, the person who made them might exercise his influence over the returning officer to induce him to fix the polling day, on a future occasion, at an inconvenient time. The charge that was made for the employment of special constables was also illegal, as the sheriff was bound to maintain the peace at all times. If bribery was to be suppressed, some measure of this kind ought to be passed, because if the constituencies saw that these charges were paid by candidates, they thought something good was to be obtained by getting into the House of Commons, and they considered that a person who canvassed them was soliciting them for some favour. The sooner the public mind was disabused upon the matter, and given to understand that a seat in that House involved great toil, without any pecuniary advantage, the better.
Mr. DEEDESsaid, he should be unwilling to vote against the adoption of any proposition which had for its object the reduction of election expenses. He was bound, however, to say that he entertained very strong objections to the Bill as it then stood. If his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose would consent to allow the Bill to be read a second time that day, upon the understanding that it was to be referred to the Committee now sitting on the Bribery Bills, who would have the power of retaining such of its provisions as they deemed worthy of being passed into law, then he (Mr. Deedes) should have no hesitation in voting for the second reading; otherwise, he should deem it to be his duty to vote against the adoption of a principle of which he did not entirely approve.
MR. HUMEsaid, he could not consent to refer it to that Committee, but would have no objection to refer it to a separate Committee, after the Report of that Committee had been laid before the House.
MR. MILESsaid, he was of opinion, from his experience as a county Member, that the Bill would add to, instead of diminishing, the expenses of gentlemen who came forward to represent counties. At present gentlemen frequently appeared as candidates, and made a speech which was much applauded by the non-constituents, as was just observed by the hon. and learned Member for Bath (Mr. Phinn); but, when it came to a question of being responsible for a share of the expenses, they bowed themselves out and no contest took place; whereas, if this Bill passed,
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the expensive process of canvassing would have to be gone through upon every such occasion. The hustings' expenses did not now amount to more than 37 l. or 40 l., and he, therefore, considered that the Bill was perfectly uncalled for, and hoped the House would give it a decided negative.
SIR GILBERT HEATHCOTEsaid, he wished to add his testimony to that of the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken. He had had great experience at county elections, and his opinion was that this Bill, so far from diminishing the expenses at elections, would greatly increase them. Its tendency would be to induce parties to present themselves as candidates at elections on very light grounds, and the consequence would be that there would be an infinitely greater number of contests than at present.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he thought that the effect of this Bill would be to impose an additional expense of 200 l., or 300 1., or 500 l., upon every county Member. Some person always came forward upon the hustings, when every one in the place knew that he had no more intention of standing bonâ fide as a candidate than he had of flying, but that he merely wished to make a speech to the electors upon some popular subject. At the nomination some elector or some non-elector—for, in the crowded assemblages usually held on those occasions, it would be impossible to prevent such an occurrence—would propose this person. What would be the result? Why, the sheriff would at once proceed to hire rooms or to erect booths in which to take the poll; and, in the smallest counties there were eight or ten such places. He would also hire poll-clerks, check-clerks, and other necessary assistants. But in addition to the expense thus thrown upon the public, the candidate would also be obliged to hire proper persons to check the return; and thus he would be put to an expense which he now avoided, and which would be caused by an opposition which every human being knew was a sham fight from the beginning to the end. Then he would ask how they would levy the funds necessary to defray these expenses? Surely they could not throw it upon the poor rate? He thought the present system was an excellent check upon mere vexatious contests, and he should oppose the Bill.
MR. COBDENsaid, he thought that the objection which the right hon. Gentleman had made to the Bill could be met in the

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manner pointed out by the hon. and learned Member for Bath (Mr. Phinn); namely, by providing that in case a candidate did not poll 1–10th or 1–20th, or some certain proportion of the constituency, he should pay his quota of the expenses now paid by all the candidates. The principle of the Bill was, that where a nation set up a representative system of government, the machinery for working that government should be paid for by the nation. This principle was recognised in the case of municipal government, the machinery of which was paid for out of public funds, as were also the expenses of the election of boards of guardians. It was a great injustice to call upon candidates to pay their election expenses, as a person might wish to represent a county who was weak in purse, although strong in argument and in principle, and could not afford to bear the burden of one-third of the expenses of his election. He hoped the House would agree to the second reading.
SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he concurred in the suggestion which had been made by the hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, but he thought that it ought not to be made the subject-matter of a clause in this Bill, but of a new Bill. The suggestion that hustings' and other expenses should be charged upon counties and boroughs was good in theory, if it could be connected in practice with the suggestion of the hon. Member for the West Riding, and he therefore hoped that this Bill would be withdrawn and another one substituted to carry that suggestion into effect. The borough which he represented was one of the largest in the empire; it contained nine polling places, and the election expenses were therefore proportionally great. In 1841, when there were 15,000 or 16,000 voters on the register, a gentleman had come forward as a candidate, and was duly proposed and seconded, but obtained only one vote, after having put him and his colleague to all the annoyance and expense of a contested election, as they did not think proper to call upon the unsuccessful candidate to pay his share. At the last election in 1852, when there were about 20,000 electors on the register, the constituency agreed that his noble Friend and himself should be returned without expense. Before the nomination a gentleman came forward and expressed his intention to stand for the borough, but the returning officer took the sensible course of getting rid of
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him by asking his noble Friend and himself for a check for their proportion of the expenses; and, as the other candidate could neither give a cheek nor security for the amount, he was obliged to retire. He would only add to the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Bath (Mr. Phinn) that security ought to be given in the first instance before the nomination took place. He hoped his hon. Friend, therefore, would withdraw this Bill, in order that another one might be introduced.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he thought the proposal of the hon. Baronet who had spoken last for the withdrawal of this Bill was a sound and valid proposal; because undoubtedly the changes which had been proposed went so much to the substance of the Bill that they appeared to be of a character which ought to be contained in a Bill upon its introduction, rather than introduced in Committee. He must confess that he was not much disposed to support the present Bill. As a general principle, no doubt it was desirable to limit the expenses of candidates as much as possible; but that they should be entirely relieved from all expense was, he was afraid, however desirable it might be thought by some persons, impossible. Even if it were possible however, or desirable, to relieve candidates from all expense, it would be found that the Bill of his hon. Friend applied only to the smallest portion of the expenses which were incurred by a candidate at an election, and that it would go but a very little way towards establishing the principle which he had in view. The expense which his hon. Friend proposed to relieve candidates of was either a small one, or it might be a considerable one. If small, it was obvious that the relief which it would afford was trifling; if large, he asked, was it fair to saddle such an expense upon the counties and boroughs where elections took place? His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Phinn) had suggested, in order to prevent frivolous and vexatious contests, that the candidate might be required to pay his portion of the expenses, unless he polled a certain proportion of the votes recorded. He thought, however, that there might be considerable difficulty in carrying that suggestion into practice. They must fix, for example, upon some proportion of votes. It might happen, if they made it large, that a bonâ fide candidate might by some accident fall short of the proportion esta-

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blished. If, on the other hand, the proportion were small, it might not prevent frivolous and vexatious contests. For the reasons, then, which had been stated, he thought that his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose would do best to accede to what appeared to be the feelings of the majority of the House, and withdraw his Bill. If his hon. Friend should find, upon reconsidering the matter, that he could propose a Bill free from the objections which had been stated, and which he thought were fatal to the accomplishment of the very principles proposed, he was quite sure that the House would give it their most attentive and favourable consideration. If his hon. Friend persisted, therefore, in pressing his Bill, he should feel obliged to vote against its second reading.
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he entirely agreed in the advice which had been given by his hon. Friend (Sir B. Hall) not to press this Motion; but he could not concur in advising him to bring in a second Bill embodying the suggestions which had been made. He objected in toto to the principle of the Bill, and could not agree with the preamble, that it was expedient that all Members of Parliament should be relieved from the expenses consequent upon their election. It was, he thought, an ungracious thing for them, sitting there, to pass a Bill transferring a charge from themselves to their constituents. The expenses of hustings formed a very inconsiderable part of the expenses of a contested election, and the Bill, therefore, only went a very short way in assertion of its principle. But beyond that, was there really any practical evil to be remedied which demanded this measure? He thought that there was not, and he was therefore not prepared to accede to the principle of the Bill. He certainly could not agree to the suggestion of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bath for obviating the effect of this Bill in encouraging contested elections, if it passed in its present shape. He thought if a man could find a proposer and seconder among a constituency, that he had a right, if he liked, to demand a poll, and they were not justified in saying that he should be fined if he did not find a certain proportion of supporters. The Bill would also have the effect of preventing candidates from withdrawing, and was altogether so objectionable, both in its principle and details, that he must oppose its second reading, and protest at the same time
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against the introduction of another Bill founded upon similar principles.
MR. BARROWsaid, he objected to the Bill, because it called upon persons who were ratepayers, but might have no votes, to contribute a share towards the expense of elections in which they took no part.
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORsaid, he should support the Bill, for in the county which he represented the hustings' expenses formed no inconsiderable part of the whole cost of an election; but, beyond this, these hustings' charges were very frequently made the instrument of corruption. His belief was, that all the Bribery Bills would be perfectly useless unless a Bill were brought in to exempt candidates from paying the expenses of hustings, of treating, and of out-voters. As for the objection about compelling persons who had no votes to pay their share, he thought that it was perfectly frivolous, because he looked upon a Member of Parliament as the representative, not of the electors only, but of the non-electors also of the district which he represented.
LORD HARRY VANEsaid, he could not admit that the hustings' expenses could have any corrupt influence upon the election. They were always ordered by the returning officer, who was usually the sub-sheriff of the county, and he knew that that official carefully abstained from taking part in the elections. The hustings' expenses were very trifling, and he believed that the Bill would only have the effect of increasing the number of contested elections. For this reason he should vote against it.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he approved of the principle of the Bill, but thought it essential that some means should be taken to provide against fictitious candidates.
MR. SPOONERsaid, lie would beg to move, as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
MR. HUMEin reply, said he had no personal interest in the question; but the indisposition which had been manifested to accept his Bill only proved to him the truth of what he had so often said, namely, that that House had never shown itself really anxious to put a stop to corrupt practices in the election of its own Members.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 57; Noes 154: Majority 97.
Words added; Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
Second Reading put off for six months.

MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS (No. 2) BILL.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he rose to move, as an Amendment, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee upon the Bill that day six mouths. His opposition to the Bill was simply grounded upon the fact that it was defective in principle, that it was not a progressive but a retrogressive measure, that it would prove injurious not only to the medical profession, but to the public at large, and that it would only confirm the anomalies and increase the difficulties of the present state of the law. The Bill proposed that every person who was registered under this Act should be entitled to practise as a medical man; but it imposed no educational test whatever as the groundwork for being registered. He could come to no other conclusion than that the Bill was simply devised for the purpose of creating registration fees throughout the country to be given to some persons or other—whom he knew not. The Bill would create three new places, and give increased patronage to the Government. The medical profession in Scotland were strongly opposed to this Bill, owing to the manner in which it dealt with Scotch diplomas, and he believed that his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate also entertained serious objections to the measure. He would not further detain the House, as he had now pointed out the principal defects of the Bill, and he trusted they would reject it.
MR. WARNERsaid, in seconding the Amendment of his hon. and learned Friend, he considered that the present Bill would not only increase the patronage of the Government, but that its great fault was, that it proposed to deal with one of the most important of the human sciences in a way which tended, not to encourage its advancement, but which would materially check it. The real motive which had induced the corporate bodies mentioned in the Bill to agitate for a measure of this kind was, because they felt that the new
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sciences of medicine were so encroaching on their antiquated system that it was absolutely necessary to put a stop to them. He did not think that the medical profession could be at all aided by placing restrictions on medical study, and the medical schools of this country must be subjected to competition, otherwise they would rank lower than those of any other country of Europe.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day six months, resolve itself into the said Committee," instead thereof.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he should oppose the Amendment, for the medical profession of Ireland generally approved the provisions of the Bill. He was, however, bound to say that the Bill did not so much affect Ireland as this country, for in whatever part of Ireland a man might be, he could be certain of receiving proper medical attendance; but he, although there were many eminent men in the medical profession in England, would rather go into the heaviest fire of a battle than submit to the medical treatment he would generally meet with in an English village. He thought it absolutely necessary that the means provided by the present Bill should be adopted, in order to protect the public from those not duly qualified to practise in the medical profession.
MR. PHINNsaid, he hoped that this measure would not share the fate of many of the "innocents" on the Wednesdays of this Session, and, having passed through a second reading, he trusted the noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department would not now ruthlessly put an end to it. He had been requested by many gentlemen of the medical profession to support the present measure, thereby advancing the cause which they had at heart, that the public might see who had and who had not received a medical education. Taking the analogy of other professions, they found that an attorney could not practise without having his name on the rolls of court, that a barrister must be a member of one of the Inns of Court, and that a clergyman must be ordained; therefore, he considered that this proposed registration could not be objected to. It might not be the best qualification; still persons would see from it those persons designated by the Legislature as qualified to practise, and would in some degree be protected from those quacks who

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had not the slightest pretensions or qualification for practising. His hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Craufurd) had said that the present Bill would create further patronage for the Government. If this were so, then the Government would, no doubt, receive the Bill with open arms; but he was very much afraid that they would disclaim the patronage which it was supposed this measure would give them. He could not say that this Bill dealt as comprehensively and efficiently with medical reform as he could have wished, still he trusted that, as there existed so great a difficulty in reconciling the opinions of the medical profession on this subject, the House would regard the Bill as a step in the right direction, and decide that registration should be adopted.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that there was some difficulty in knowing what really was the principle of the present Bill. If it were intended merely to make a list of doctors, there would be very little good or harm in that; but he suspected from the last clause that it was intended to give a discretionary power to those who made the registration as to whom they would enter and whom they would leave out. In fact, the Bill appeared to him to be an attempt to set up a very extensive machinery to tax every doctor in the country, and to put upon Government the not very enviable task of selecting three doctors to be the objects of the animadversion of the whole profession. He knew that medical reform was a difficult subject to deal with, but, as he did not think that the present Bill would render it one jot the less so, he should vote against it.
MR. LASLETTsaid, he felt it his duty to oppose the Bill, as it was a measure affecting unfavourably a large majority of the medical profession.
MR. DIGBY SEYMOURsaid, he could not agree with the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member who had moved the Amendment, who, admitting that the principle of registration was good, thought that the measure ought to be larger, and should be kept back until some uniform educational test could be introduced, and the medical profession could be brought under one system. This, under the present state of things, was nearly impossible. He considered that the principle of the Bill was unexceptionable, and should therefore support it.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, be was afraid that he must perform the ungracious duty which the hon. and learned Member
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for Bath (Mr. Phinn) had said he was sometimes in the habit of discharging; but he did not know that he could quite concur with the hon. and learned Gentleman in thinking this Bill one of the "innocents;" on the contrary, he was inclined to think that, if it were to have any effect at all, it would be rather mischievous than innocent. But he must beg, in the first place, to defend the medical profession of England from the charges and imputations brought against them by the hon. and gallant Member for Portarlington (Colonel Dunne). He was happy to think that that misapprehension on his part as to the merits and qualifications of the English medical practitioners must have arisen from a circumstance in which they all of them must greatly rejoice, namely, the enjoyment by the hon. and gallant Member of the most perfect health while he had sat in that House. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman had been visited by any of those constitutional maladies which sometimes afflicted Members of that House, and prevented them from attending to the discharge of their legislative duties, whether he had sought advice in London or had fled to the purer air of the country, he would in either case have acquired practical experience of the skill and ability of the medical profession in England. To pass from that point, he thought this measure, as it stood, would have the effect of giving a Parliamentary sanction, as it were, to a number of persons who were not, perhaps, qualified in the manner in which persons ought to be qualified, who ought to enjoy the benefit and privilege of a Parliamentary sanction in the way of a registration. No doubt, the object ought to be to register those medical practitioners who were duly qualified, by education and attainments, to follow their profession; but he did not think this Bill would accomplish that object. It would register a number of persons who had obtained their diplomas from a multitude of bodies, many of which were not well qualified to give diplomas that ought to be a proof of the qualifications of the persons who held them. He granted that the medical profession required some considerable alteration; it was at present a chaos that quite bewildered a non-professional man who attempted to find a remedy for existing evils. It was very true, with reference to the majority of the medical body, that they did not much aid those who had for their object the improvement of the profes-

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sion. It often happened to others, as it had frequently happened to him, that a number of medical practitioners waited upon him and assured him that the provisions of this Bill would be of great public advantage, and was approved by the profession generally, but at no very distant period he would find that a large portion of the profession differed from and disapproved the measure. He spoke with all deference to those better informed on the subject than himself, but, from the consideration which he had given it, he thought that there were some general principles which might guide them in seeking to improve the medical profession. He said it with great deference, but, as far as the matter had been brought under his consideration, he should say that what they wanted was some uniform system of education, and some uniform test of qualification in the different branches of the profession. At the present moment there were, he believed, twenty-two different bodies entitled to give diplomas, and, as had been stated in the course of the debate, some of those bodies lowered their fees and their standard of examination in order to outbid the others, and the result was, that many persons were practising who were not competent to perform the duties which they had undertaken to discharge. He would be happy if he could be able, on communication with the leading members of the different branches of the profession, to propose to Parliament some measure that at least would lay the foundation of an improvement in the medical profession. He could not pretend to say at present that he was prepared with such a measure, but he thought a part and consequence of that general arrangement would be a system of registration. He thought a system of registration would be of advantage to the profession, and to the public at large; but this Bill put the cart before the horse, and made the consequence the preliminary to the cause. He was therefore disposed to support the Amendment.
MR. NAPIERsaid, that the House having sanctioned the second reaching of this Bill, ho did not think it was a very fair course to oppose the Motion for going into Committee. The noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) seemed to have some idea in his mind regarding a uniform plan of giving medical certificates or diplomas. How was that notion to be carried out? Did the noble Lord mean to convert all the institutions which now granted diplomas
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into one great medical university? He admitted that diplomas should only be given to properly qualified persons; but that object could only be effected by means of an improved system of education, and were the people to be left in the hands of quacks until such time as Parliament should find itself able to establish a better system of education? He hoped the House would proceed to consider the Bill in Committee.
MR. BRADYsaid, he would not imitate the personalities of the hon. Gentlemen who had moved and seconded the Amendment. He thought the House was sufficiently aware of the anomalous and unsatisfactory state in which the medical profession was at the present moment. The noble Lord had told them that there were twenty-two bodies who had the power of granting diplomas, but they had no regular standard of qualification or examination; and, as a measure of justice alone, the measure was imperatively called for. With regard to the patronage which it was said the Bill would confer, he should like to know how such a measure could be carried out without machinery, and he had adopted his from the Bill proposed on a former occasion by the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty. The objections and opposition to his measure had been got up, in the first place, by the Provincial Medical Association, which was so well represented by the hon. and learned Member for Ayr (Mr. Craufurd). They had sent circulars to all parts of the country and to the metropolis. He would not trespass further upon the time of the House, because the principle of his Bill had been already recognised and sanctioned by the House. He could not understand what objection could be urged to a medical man being the proper person to register the professional men of this country, and be would conclude by observing that, if the present measure passed, it would be a great blessing to the profession and the community.
MR. HUMEsaid, he felt bound to do justice to the motives of the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the Bill. It was to provide for the registration of duly-qualified medical men, so that the public would be able to discriminate them from the pretenders. He thought no hon. Member could find fault with such a step, and he trusted that they would yet be able to accomplish some reform in a quarter in which it was so much required.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 69; Noes 118: Majority 49.
Words added; Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
Committee put off for six months.

WAYS AND MEANS—SUGAR DUTIES.
Order for Committee read; House in Committee of Ways and Means.
MR. WILSONsaid, that it would be recollected that on a former evening, in passing Resolutions with respect to the sugar duties, it had been found impossible at the moment to arrange exactly the manner of dealing with the duty of sugar in breweries. That difficulty was now overcome, and he had therefore to move a Resolution making the duty on sugar used in breweries correspond with those agreed to in Committee the other evening. He had another Resolution to move also arising out of an omission, but an accidental one, on Monday night. That Resolution ran thus:—
"That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be raised, levied, collected, and paid, on and after the 9th day of May, 1854, an additional Duty after the rate of fifteen pounds per centum upon the produce and amount of the Duties of Customs upon Sugar, which are now due and payable to Her Majesty."
It would be observed by the Committee that the word "and molasses" were omitted. He doubted whether this omission was of any moment, as "sugar" really included "molasses;" but still, to put an end to any doubt, he proposed to move a Resolution extending the additional 15 per cent to the duty on molasses, making that additional 15 per cent payable from and after the 8th May, so as to commence with the additional percentage on sugar. The Custom-House authorities had already considered themselves justified in taking the 15 per cent to extend to molasses, they being advised by their counsel that sugar included that word. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving Resolutions in accordance with his statement.
MR. HUMEsaid, the House had passed an Act declaring that the duties on sugar should remain at a given rate until the 5th of July, 1854, and he did not think they had any right to add 15 per cent to those duties before that time. He thought they ought to be very cautious not to violate existing laws in which other parties were concerned.
MR. THOMSON HANKEYsaid, he believed it would be satisfactory to many persons interested in this matter if some fuller explanation were given on one important point. In the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other night, he did not clearly explain whether he proposed to make any alteration in the standards of quality of sugars in this new system of duties. The importers of sugar would be affected by any alteration that might be made in the standard of quality, and he had, therefore, to ask the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury to explain more fully the exact mode in which it was proposed to alter the scale of duties, and how far the new proposed scale differed from the one now in existence?
MR. WILSONsaid, he would endeavour to state, in a few words, the distinction which they proposed to make in the new scale of duties. The Committee was aware that almost the only complaint at the present time in regard to the operation of the existing law was this, that the scale of duties did not operate fairly with respect to the various qualities of sugar. The producers of low sugars complained that, although nominally they paid the same amount of duty as the producers of the higher qualities, yet, in reality, they paid a larger duty, inasmuch as the article they produced did not yield the same amount of saccharine matter, and consequently of refined sugar, as that produced by the other parties. Now, he really assented to that statement; but the question was, how to remedy the evil. The Government had been strongly urged to allow refining in bond; but there were so many objections to that system, that the Government had resolved not to adopt it, at least under present circumstances. They had determined, in the first place, to attempt to equalise the duties upon a different plan. At the present moment there were three scales of duties applicable to colonial sugars. The first, 10 s. per cwt. for the lowest class; the second, on sugars of the quality of brown and white clayed, 11 s. 8d.; and the third, refined sugars, 13 s. 4d. With regard to foreign sugars, the Act of 1848 provided for four scales. There was a scale, in the first place, for a quality below brown clayed; secondly, a scale for a quality equal to brown clayed; thirdly, a scale for white clayed; and fourthly, a scale for refined. The duty on the lowest quality of foreign sugar had never been applicable to colonial sugars;

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and what they proposed was to attach a duty of 12 s. per cwt. to the great bulk of yellow and the best quality of brown colonial sugars, and a duty of 11 s. to the lowest qualities, thus making a distinction which had not hitherto been made. By that means they hoped to remedy the evil of which complaint was made. Upon the consideration of protecting the revenue, and making a fair apportionment of duty to the amount of saccharine matter contained, it was intended to modify the standard of white clayed sugars. With regard to the lowest scale—which would be charged with 11 s. duty—or sugars of a standard not equal to brown clayed, it was a very low standard, and therefore admitted only a very small quantity—last year, he believed, only 9,000 out of 390,000 tons consumed. The Government proposed to raise that standard considerably, so as to let in a considerable portion of West India sugars not let in by the present standard. The chief object of the alterations would be to modify the standard in such a way that each quality might pay, as nearly as possible, duty in proportion to the real quantity of saccharine matter contained.
MR. GREGSONsaid, it would be a very advantageous measure if there was one uniform duty on all classes of sugar.
MR. DUNLOPsaid, he trusted the Government would, in the event of the differential rates of duty, according to quality, being carried, also consider whether differential drawbacks could not be allowed. With respect to the words in the Resolution, "from and after the 8th day of May," he objected to giving it a retrospective operation. On Tuesday night they had passed a Resolution, in which 15 per cent was added to the duties on sugar; nothing was said about molasses. The Resolution now proposed, therefore, became necessary; but according to all precedent, which it would be unwise for the sake of two days to disturb, increased duties took effect from the date when the Resolutions were passed.
MR. HUMEsaid, he was not aware, until now, that the omission of molasses had taken place, but he remembered a similar omission with respect to the timber duties for one day, and all transactions in the particular class of timber omitted for that day were free of duty. He did not believe it possible they could pass a Resolution on the 10th to come into operation on the 8th. Supposing individuals, know-
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ing of the omission, had in the two days purchased molasses, they were not to be fined in the duties for the negligence of a Government department. He therefore objected to the 8th of May standing in the Resolution.
MR. WILSONsaid, that although he had used the precaution of bringing in this Resolution, yet he did not think it was absolutely necessary to do so in order to include molasses, because the Resolution passed the other night declared that certain additional duties should be levied on sugar, and in every Act for regulating the duty on sugar molasses were treated as sugar. The Commissioners of Customs held themselves justified by the terms of the Resolution of Tuesday night in including the duty of molasses in that of sugar, but that there might be no dispute he proposed this Resolution. Had that not been the case he should have yielded immediately to the suggestion made, but as molasses had always been treated as sugar, and as the Commissioners of Customs considered molasses a description of sugar, he thought the Committee would feel no difficulty in passing the Resolution in the form proposed.
MR. HENLEYsaid, the real question was, not what was the opinion of the Commissioners of Customs, but whether without this Resolution they could introduce into the Act of Parliament power to levy duty on molasses. There could be no doubt it was understood the 15 per cent was applicable to all kinds of sugar and molasses, and if the power of levying it on molasses could be introduced into the Act of Parliament there could be no difficulty.
MR. WILSONsaid, there could be no doubt about that. The Commissioners of Customs had been already advised that they could collect the duties, and had collected them.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he was very glad the Government had undertaken to modify the scale, but he thought it was very desirable full notice should be given as to the mode in which they would modify it, because it was a matter of importance to parties interested that the Committee should not be called on to come to any hasty decision. He was one of those who regarded the modification of the scale as a tardy act of justice to a certain proportion of sugar producers, on whose produce there had been a seeming, and not a real, differential duty.
MR. WILSONsaid, he admitted the

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question as to drawbacks, referred to by the hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. Dunlop), was an essential one. Hitherto export drawbacks had been allowed to two qualities of sugar—highly refined sugar, or loaf sugar, and the common brown sugar, the residue of the refining. But a practice had risen up in the trade of manufacturing various qualities—crushing sugars—and selling them in their manufactured state. It was suggested that, although the demand for them was at present confined to this country, yet an export trade might spring up in those qualities of sugar. The subject had received considerable attention, and he should be glad if, in connection with those in the refining trade, he could devise a plan to take intermediate drawbacks. If that could not be done in the present Bill, perhaps power might be taken, by Order in Council, or by order of the Treasury, to allow intermediate drawbacks on the varieties of sugar in the market. He was free to admit that the whole value of the measure depended not on the words of the Act of Parliament, but on the actual standard fixed. He had taken the pains to put himself in connection with practical men, to ascertain what would be a proper standard. He did not mean to say he was now ready to fix the standard, but he was ready, with the assistance of the refiners and East and West India merchants who might make representations through Members of the House, to consider the question, so that they might fix a standard which would be fair to the various parties interested.
MR. HANKEY said, the proposal of the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Gregson) to make one uniform duty was an extremely unsatisfactory mode of levying the duty to importers of sugar from the West Indies. They felt that the duty ought to be levied on the gross quantity of sacharine matter which the sugar contained, and on that principle had contended for refining in bond. An approximation towards that principle was now offered by Her Majesty's Government; it would be received as a boon by the West India body; and he begged on their behalf to thank the Government for it. He hoped they would fix a standard which should give the benefit to which he alluded.
MR. SANDARSsaid, he wished to know whether the extra malt duty would be levied on all stock on hand, and whether allowance would be made for screening?
MR. WILSONsaid, the increased duty would be levied on all holders of malt of every description. An erroneous impression had got abroad that it would be levied on the large consumers, and not on the dealers. Such was not the case. As to the allowance, he believed three, four, or five per cent would be allowed for screening.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he wished to know if it was to be understood that private persons were not dealers?
MR. WILSONsaid, he should perhaps have said factors. He did not suppose the Excise Office would follow small dealers. He might mention that, as an additional security, there would be a clause in the Bill which would enable the officers to require the factors and dealers to state on oath what stocks of malt they had on the day the Resolution was passed.
MR. DUNLOPsaid, he was not quite satisfied with regard to the point as to molasses. If it was the case that the Resolution carried the other night really did include molasses, no injury would be done by leaving out these retrospective words. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wilson) said it was to prevent disputes, but disputes were more likely to be caused by putting in retrospective words, contrary to the usage of Parliament. He should be very unwilling to divide the Committee, but they ought to adhere to the ordinary form of these Resolutions.
MR. ALEXANDER HASTIEsaid, as to molasses being sugar, it was all nonsense. Molasses were always scheduled separately and distinctly. If his hon. Friend divided the Committee, he should feel constrained to vote with him. He had no doubt but that the decision of the Government on Monday last had already been acted upon in Glasgow and Greenock. He considered that it would be very unfair to go out of their way to make alterations, and he thought that they ought to consider well how, for the sake of the war, they trespassed upon and broke through the established usages of the country.
MR. HANKEYsaid, he hoped that the hon. Member would not divide the Committee. Nobody could possibly have been wronged. He would venture to say nobody had paid a different duty than they would have paid under this Resolution. He had not the smallest doubt the head of the Customs had taken care to inform every one what would be the proposed rate of duty, and that proposed rate was understood by every one to include molasses as

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part of the ordinary classes which were scheduled in all Acts relating to sugar. Instead of facilitating, the alteration of the Resolution would embarrass the Custom House, by raising a doubt as to the object and intention of the Resolution already passed. He was quite sure nobody in the trade had been deceived, and it would only be misleading the public connected with the trade if they implied any doubt as to what ought to be the course taken by the Custom-House officers. If there was any doubt, it must be settled by the law officers of the Crown; it could not be settled by a Resolution of that House.
MR. HUMEsaid, that invariably from the passing of the Resolution the Customs were warranted in levying the duties. It would be dangerous to admit the precedent that a Resolution of the 10th would justify their collecting duties on the 8th and 9th, and therefore he should propose to strike out the words "from and after the 8th of May." A retrospective vote was not consistent with the character of that House, and he would certainly divide the Committee upon the question.
MR. WILSONsaid, in the present state of the House, if he opposed the alteration, probably on a division they would discover there was no House; he should have the Resolution thrown over to another supply day, and, therefore, lose two days' more duty. The most discreet plan, he supposed, was to substitute the 10th to the 8th. He was quite ready to trust to the state of the law for the two days' duty.
MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he wished to know if they were to understand that molasses were not included in the two days?
MR. HUMEsaid, he understood that if the Customs were right in their interpretation of the law, molasses cleared on those two days would be liable.
Resolved—
1. "That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be raised, levied, collected, and paid, on and after the 10th day of May, 1854, an additional Duty, after the rate of fifteen pounds per centum, upon the produce and amount of the duties on Molasses, which are now due and payable to Her Majesty in the United Kingdom, under the management and direction of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Customs."
Resolved—
2. "That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be raised, levied, collected, and paid for and upon all Sugar which, after the 10th day of May, 1854, shall be used by any Brewer of Beer for sale in the brewing or making of Beer, the Duty of Five Shillings and Twopence, for every hundred weight, and after
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the like rate for any greater or less quantity than a hundred weight of such Sugar; in lieu of the Duty of Excise chargeable on such Sugar, under the 3rd section of the Act 13 & 14 Vic. c. 67, but over and above all other Duties, whether of Excise or Customs."
House resumed.
The House adjourned at half after Five o'clock.