Commons Sitting of 24 February 1854

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Bribery, &c.; Controverted Elections, &c.; Colonial Clergy Disabilities.
2° Towns Improvement (Ireland); Improvement of Towns (Ireland).

COPPER COINAGE FOR THE COLONIES.
MR. THORNELYsaid, the hon. Secretary to the Treasury having stated on a previous evening that a contract had been

1251
entered into with a house in Birmingham for the supply of coin for this country and Ireland, he (Mr. Thornely) wished to ask the hon. Secretary whether the Government had taken into consideration the necessity of supplying copper coin to the Colonies, and especially to the colony of Australia? He (Mr. Thornely) had that morning received information that so great was the scarcity of copper coin in Australia, and so little experienced were the people in preparing a supply of it, that they had to obtain supplies from the continent of Europe and from America. He wished to ask whether the Government had taken any measures to supply the Colonies of this country, and especially the colony of Australia, with copper coin?
MR. WILSONsaid, the contract to which the hon. Member alluded was entered into, not only for the purpose of meeting the requirements of Ireland, Scotland, and this country, but also of our Colonies, and more particularly North America and Australia. Of the 500 tons of copper coin only 19,000 l. had as yet been issued; but he had the pleasure to state that the daily delivery now amounted to 80,000 pieces, so that, the wants of Ireland having been relieved, he had no doubt that the Master of the Mint being aware of the pressure in Australia, to which the hon. Member had so properly called the attention of the House, would take measures to see it speedily relieved.

SEIZURE OF GUNPOWDER.
MR. OTWAYsaid, he wished to call the attention of the hon. Secretary to the Treasury to the following paragraph which appeared in that day's Times:—
"The public will rejoice to hear that, under the operation of the order which recently appeared, a quantity of gunpowder, intended for exportation and for delivery to the enemies of England, has been seized. Two large operations of this kind have been happily disconcerted, and it is hoped that many others will meet with the same fate. This result has been obtained by an anonymous communication made to the authorities, and, although we are no friends to anonymous communications in most instances, still, when the lives of our gallant soldiers and sailors are at stake, we cannot afford to be over sensitive."
He wished to know whether there would be any objection to state to the House the names of those traders whose gunpowder and munitions of war had been seized under the recent proclamation?
MR. J. WILSONsaid, in answer to the
1252
question, he must inform the hon. Gentleman that that was a matter which came entirely under the supervision of the Treasury; and he had to state to the House all that he knew of the steps which they had taken to carry out the present Order in Council. The fact was, that the day after the proclamation appeared the authorities at the Treasury had an intimation from certain persons that led them to suppose that a large quantity of gunpowder was about to be shipped to Syra, for the use of the Greek insurgents, and that a portion of it was intended for employment by Russia. The gunpowder was stopped, as well as other munitions which had also been prepared for the same market. He should not feel justified in stating the names of the persons who had been engaged in these transactions, because it did not at all follow that the persons who were engaged in shipping the gunpowder for Syra were informed of the quarter for which it was destined; and as the Treasury proceeded on information which was in a great measure confidential, he did not think he should be justified in stating more than the general circumstance. The authorities at the Treasury were quite aware of the great difficulty with which they were surrounded in attempting to stop this illicit trade. The means to which they had resorted, and which might prove of some importance, was, that they had caused an account to be made out of the quantity of gunpowder that each market had been usually supplied with, monthly, for the last two or three years; and whenever they now found that an unusual supply was about to be shipped to any country, they should probably feel themselves justified, unless the circumstance was fully and satisfactorily explained, in stopping the shipment of such unusual quantity. Of course, the authorities at the Treasury were very much in the hands of the public. They had received very considerable assistance by confidential communications made to the several departments, and they should be much obliged to any person who would aid them in carrying out the object they had in view.

TRANSPORT OF CAVALRY HORSES.
GENERAL WYNDHAMsaid, he wished to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty or the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War, why the horses of the cavalry and horse artillery are to be embarked in sail-

1253
ing transports, at the risk of a protracted sea voyage, and whether any good and substantial reasons exist to prevent their accommodation on board of steam-vessels?
SIR JAMES GRAHAM: Sir, in answer to the question put by my hon. and gallant Friend, I shall be most happy to state, as shortly as I can, the reasons which decided the Government to employ sailing ships instead of steam-vessels for the conveyance of horses on this occasion. I am sure the experience of my hon. and gallant Friend will lead him to the conclusion that the course adopted by Her Majesty's Government is right. All the experience that we have hitherto had in removing forces by steam has been for short distances; and for short distances the horses may safely remain on deck without any danger. But on embarking for a distant part of the Levant, I think my hon. and gallant Friend will come to the same conclusion that I have—that it would be extremely detrimental, if not dangerous, to the horses if they should remain on deck during so long a voyage. If it were considered requisite to put them under hatches, it would be absolutely necessary to consider the immense amount of tonnage that would be required. You would require a space equal to ten tons; and I think, when the House considers the vast space occupied in the hull of each steam ship by the machinery, the quantity of coal which it would be necessary to carry for so long a voyage, and the quantity of water and of provender for each horse, the difficulty of the operation will be seen to be insuperable. For the conveyance of the troops, amounting to about 11,000, I think fourteen steamers will be provided; and the entire force will be removed in this way from hence to Malta in the course of the next fortnight. The consumption of coal for such an operation will be no less than 6,000 tons; and if, for 1,500 horses, you are to provide 15,000 tons of steam transport—each horse requiring, as I have said, ten tons—it would be necessary that we should have a collier in attendance on each steamer. Besides the tonnage for the provender of the horses, you would have to supply an extra tonnage for coals. I do speak of the expense, which would be enormous. My right hon. Friend at the head of the War Department has given the most careful attention to the subject which he could bestow; we were most desirous that the horses, as well as the infantry, should be conveyed by steamers;
1254
but, after having considered the subject, we came to the conclusion that the difficulties were so great that it would not be wise to incur them; and I think my hon. and gallant Friend will consider that that was the wisest decision we could come to.

SOLDIERS' WIVES AND CHILDREN.
MR. MACARTNEYsaid, he begged to ask the right hon. Secretary at War, whether it is intended to provide temporary accommodation and support for the wives and children of soldiers now proceeding to the seat of war, who have not been provided with a passage on board the transports; and, in case of their being unable to support themselves and families during the absence of their husbands, whether there is no other mode of proceeding than by being passed to their several parishes and becoming inmates of the workhouse?
MR. SIDNEY HERBERT: Sir, my attention has been called to this subject by several Gentlemen; and I should, in the first place, wish the House to understand the system upon which the removal of troops is usually conducted, and the arrangements that are made with regard to the wives of soldiers. Usually, when a regiment is ordered on foreign service, six women are allowed to go for every 100 men. Of course, this being the usual case, there would be no greater amount of separation between soldiers and their wives than is usual when a regiment goes, in ordinary times, to any of our Colonies. But it was thought necessary, as those troops were going on foreign service, to diminish to some extent the proportion of women and children who should accompany them. I believe that arrangement is a humane one, from what I understand from officers who have had great experience in foreign service; for when I asked one of them how the wives and children of soldiers on foreign service were provided for, he said the women usually followed the regiments on foot, and were occasionally given "a lift" on the carts or baggage waggons; but with respect to the children, he used this remarkable expression—"Before long they disappeared,"—meaning, without doubt, that the hardships to which they are exposed are such, that the children die. It clearly, therefore, is not a humane proceeding to encourage the number of children to be taken out with troops going on foreign service. Under these circumstances the Horse Guards decided that,

1255
instead of sending six women out for each 100 men, four only should be allowed to go. The difference, therefore, between the four and the six—that is, the two women that otherwise would have gone as a matter of course—are placed in a position of considerable hardship. I have written to the depots of all the regiments that are going abroad to inquire into the circumstances of each particular case, to know what is the best course to adopt with respect to them. At present, under the existing regulations, the wives of soldiers who do not accompany their husbands will be removed to their own homes at the public expense, where they will be taken care of by any friends they may have; or, in case they have no friends or relations, they will have recourse to parochial relief. But I would just make this observation, that if you encourage—by giving permanent provision to the wives of soldiers going abroad—the habit of marriage in the Army, you increase the evil to which you wish to put an end. I think, under these circumstances, the Government would not be justified in making any arrangement to give provision from the public purse to the wives of soldiers who are sent abroad. You will recollect that the non-permission to soldiers to marry above a certain proportion was a great hardship when soldiers were enlisted for life; but it is exceedingly diminished in cases where a man of only eighteen or nineteen enlists for the short term of ten years. I have, however, taken measures to ascertain what are the circumstances of the women that have been left behind. Those who under ordinary circumstances would naturally remain behind will be sent home in the usual manner to their friends, unless they have work or occupation in the places where they are located. With regard to those who had been originally intended to go abroad with their husbands, but who are now to remain behind in consequence of the new regulation, I think their eases are special; and I have for the present ordered that half-rations shall be supplied to them; and, in the meantime, I shall inquire into the circumstances, and deal with them in the best manner that I can.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, he would offer as a suggestion, that the barracks at St. John's Wood, now emptied by the troops lately quartered there going abroad, might be made a place of temporary accommodation for the wives and children of the soldiers ordered on foreign service.

REMOVAL OF IRISH PAUPERS.
On the question that the House go into Committee of Supply,
MR. MAGUIRErose, and begged to claim the attention of the House for a short time on a matter which he conceived to be really worthy of attention. The object he had in placing his notice on the paper was to draw the attention of the House to the harsh and unjust operation of the law for the removal of Irish poor from this country to Ireland. He was also anxious to place before the House some instances which would prove that a sufficiently harsh and stringent provision of the existing law was overstepped and exceeded by the interest or the zeal of those who were entrusted with the administration of the law in this country. He was most anxious to claim the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board to the statement he was about to make, because his (Mr. Maguire's) object was to place such a statement before the House as might induce the right hon. Gentleman to consider the case of Ireland seriously, and induce him and his colleagues to consider the necessity, on the occasion of the second reading of his Bill—of which he (Mr. Maguire) begged to say he warmly approved—of making a statement to the House to effect that Ireland should not be excluded from the humane and salutary provisions of the Bill. The main object of that Bill was to give the poor man the right to relief in whatever parish he might find himself destitute at the time of asking for that relief. That he should have a right to that relief, and have no fear, as at present, that on applying for relief he will be removed to whatever locality he may be considered chargeable upon. He (Mr. Maguire) regretted the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board did not take more into his consideration, and state more strongly, the case of Ireland. But, in the first place, how stood the law in the case of the Irish poor? By the 8 & 9 Vict. c. 117, it was provided, that
—"If any person born in Ireland or Scotland, and not settled in England, became chargeable in England, by reason of relief given to him or her, or their children, such persons and such children were liable to be removed to their own country."
But that law was altered by the 10 & 11 Vict. c. 33, wherein it was provided, that
—"Any relieving officer, poor-law guardian, or parish overseer, might take before any two jus-

1257
tices, without warrant or summons, any person who became chargeable to the parish, or whom he believed was liable to be removed from this country."
Now see the operation of that. A poor man, who might have resided for twenty years in this country, and who had not established the necessary settlement, which would be a bar to his removal, would be liable, on obtaining parochial relief, to prompt removal as coming within the meshes of the law. He was removed; and though he might have spent all his life in this country, he was flung, notwithstanding, on the most convenient part of the Irish shore by the party who held the contract for his removal, with every prospect of being henceforth a helpless and destitute pauper. The law provided, that the poor to be removed were to be brought to the port nearest the locality of their birth. However, the ports of Wexford, Waterford, Cork, and Limerick, were the only ones named. Limerick, from its inconvenient situation, did not enjoy so many of the advantages resulting from that state of the law as the other ports; but even when landed at either of the other ports, it often happened that the unfortunate pauper was 100 or 150 miles from the locality of his birth, which distance he had to trudge with heart worn out by misery, and broken down by fatigue and privation. The moment the unfortunate pauper entered the workhouse of that distant locality, he left all hope behind him, and misery and despair might be said to be his portion for the remainder of his days. He could cite many instances of the hardships which the poor people of Ireland had suffered from this state of things. Some time since, in 1849, an inquiry was instituted by the Poor Law Commissioners, who sent an inspector to inquire into the case of a woman named Murray, whose husband had been a resident in this country thirty-nine years, and herself a resident twenty-one years, the last eight years of which she lived in the parish of St. Martin-in-the-Fields. The husband died, and left her with a child of about sixteen years of age, who was born in London. They got relief for about thirteen weeks, and were then shipped to Ireland against their will. Evidence in the case was taken upon oath, and he (Mr. Maguire) went to the establishment, a papier-maché warehouse near the Strand, where the husband had been employed, and found that he had been for fifteen years in the employment, and also that he was of unexceptionable character and conduct. The Cork Board
1258
of Guardians were enduring at this very moment, not 100 but over 200, cases of a similar nature, cases that they were not legally bound to administer relief in, and all because they had no idea of entering into a contest in the matter with the Poor Law Commissioners. He (Mr. Maguire) could tell those who were just now seeking the means to uphold the honour of England, that this was the time for them to soothe the feelings of the Irish people, and to prove to them that they recognised their equality, as well as solicited them to share in the toils and the chances of the approaching conflict. But he had several other cases to give to the House. On the 21st September, a woman named Condon went before the Cork bench. She had been fourteen years a resident in the parish of Marylebone. Her husband, who had always previously maintained the family, found it difficult to obtain work. He left his family to seek employment. The poor woman applied for, and obtained, parochial relief. But she was quickly shipped to Cork; and one of the constables of that city found the unfortunate woman and her four children wandering about the streets of Cork at night, having neither food nor shelter beneath which to rest their wearied limbs. The next case was one that came before him (Mr. Maguire) when he filled the office of mayor of Cork. A woman, who had resided sixteen years in Westminster, was deserted by her husband. She was advised by her friends to seek parish relief, in order to render her husband legally responsible. She did so, and was immediately shipped to Cork. The poor woman was most anxious to get back to Westminster; and he (Mr. Maguire) asked her it she had ever applied for relief before, to which she replied, "She never did, as she always worked hard for a livelihood." Now that certainly was doing more than putting the law in force; it was outraging the law, harsh and stringent as that law was of itself. A third case was that of a poor girl only sixteen years old, who, having lost half-a-crown, with which her sister had sent her out, she became afraid to go home, and applied for relief. She obtained it, and was shipped to Cork on the 6th of February. Now, hon. Gentlemen from Ireland knew the inconvenience and discomfort of crossing the sea to Holyhead—a matter of five or six hours; yet here was this wretched girl put on the deck of a steamer, against her will, clothed in a very light dress, with no head-covering what-

1259
ever. She implored to be permitted to go back to her sister, or to let her see her sister; but no, the officials knew their duty too well, and she was shipped to Cork, her sister being even ignorant of what had become of her. The next case was that of a woman who had been twenty years in England, and who was brought before the Cork bench on the 15th instant. She stated her husband had got out of employment for a short time, and she had been obliged to go into the workhouse to be confined. The workhouse authorities threatened to send her to Ireland. She supplicated them to leave her for a few days, at the end of which her husband, she said, would provide for her. But she, with her four children, all born in England, were sent to Ireland. The comment of the poor creature on the law was this:—
"I have lived the last ten years in Lambeth; all my children were born there; and it is a cruel thing to send a wife and children away from their provider, as it may be the means of parting us for ever."
The remark of the Cork magistrate was, "If this woman were English, and twenty years amongst us, we would have no power whatever to send her away." Now, he (Mr. Maguire) asserted it was unjust to have one law for a rich and powerful country, and another for a weak and poor one. The clerk of the poor-law guardians at Cork, writing to him the other day, informed him that an old woman born in Jersey, and who knew nothing about Ireland, was shipped to Cork, and was in the Cork workhouse at present, having strayed from Jersey into England. Then there was also a blind boy, who had been born in Jersey, and having strayed into Plymouth, was got rid of by the officials there, and was at present an inmate of the blind asylum at Cork. A woman named Ellen Connor, aged twenty-one and eight years a resident in London, went into St. Luke's Hospital. After three months she applied for her discharge, which was refused, and she was shipped for Cork, to the total ignorance of her husband. Then again there was the case of a child seven years of age, born in London, but being of Irish extraction, she was shipped to that country, though she knew no person there, nor had she a single friend. There was also the case of Catherine Hogan, of Whitechapel, aged seventeen, born in London. Her father was also born in London, and died in America. She became in and went to
1260
an hospital. After some time she applied for her discharge, was refused, was forcibly put into a van, and subsequently shipped for Ireland, because she was of Irish extraction. Bridget M'Carthy, who resided thirty-three years in London, and had four children born there;—she was kept four days in St. Clement's, and then forcibly sent to Cork in May last. Mary Mahoney, six years in London, three children born here, was sent over from Westminster without the knowledge of her husband. But the worst case was that of a family of the name of Cotter, the father aged sixty, the mother fifty, with two children, one of ten and the other of five years. Cotter lived in England forty-six years, the nine last of which he spent in Liverpool. They all became afflicted with fever, applied for parochial relief, and obtained it. They were kept in the workhouse until barely recovered, and were then shipped over to become an additional burden on the ratepayers of Cork. Anne Harriss, a resident of St. Pancras for seven years, applied for relief, her husband having gone into the Middlesex Hospital with a broken leg. She obtained it, but was refused a discharge, and sent to Cork against her will and without the knowledge of her husband. The clerk of the Cork guardians assured him (Mr. Maguire) that did time permit he could easily have sent twenty additional cases. He also said:—
"He did not know if Cork had been peculiarly unfortunate in receiving cases of this description, but he did know that the number of poor cast helpless and penniless on the quays of Cork was really frightful."
Now, hon. Gentlemen might ask, "Why don't the Commissioners of Poor Laws interfere?" The answer was this: Many cases of the kind had been from time to time stated to the Poor Law Commissioners, but no benefit ever arose from any such complaints, and, consequently, the guardians had long ceased to make representations on the subject. But the matter was now being taken up indignantly. The magistrates solicited the press to record the cases; and what, he begged to ask, did hon. Gentlemen think would be the result upon the sensitive and impulsive Irish people, whose assistance they were now anxious to secure in strengthening the power of their arms? His object was to point out this crying grievance; and it was the duty of the Government, if they intended to justify what they had stated, to grapple with the enormity of the evil im-

1261
mediately. The right hon. Secretary at War spoke, a few minutes since, of the disappearance of children during a military campaign. He (Mr. Maguire) could assure him that children also disappeared from the hardships and exposure of the unsheltered deck to which they were consigned in the depth of winter by some bloated official, some hard-hearted wretch, such as tied up the bell of the Whitechapel Workhouse, and denied the means of ingress to an unfortunate woman in the pangs of childbirth. The right hon. the President of the Poor-Law Board, had stated, in reply to a deputation which waited upon him a day or two since, in reference to the new Bill:—
"What he desired was to put an end to compulsory removal, which was unjust and oppressive to the poor man. The effect of the law, as it now stood, and which it was his (Mr. Baines's) wish to remedy, was, that if a man, through unforeseen circumstances, tell into distress, for instance, either in Marylebone or St. Pancras, instead of receiving relief from either of those parishes, the authorities had the power to send the poor man, and, perhaps, a wife and family, into Northumberland, or any other distant part, merely because his father some years before had a settlement there. Just in like manner might a poor man be sent up from Cornwall to one of the metropolitan parishes. The Act was unjust, impolitic, and cruel, and one which the Legislature was bound to put an end to. The present law of removal did not affect vagrants, but was calculated to oppress the industrious classes, who might fall into misfortune. Again, there could be no doubt that at present the grossest frauds were practised in some parishes by unscrupulous officers to get rid of the poor when the five years' residence was about to expire."
There could be no doubt whatever of the perfect accuracy of this description of the effects of the existing law. But if there were sufficient reasons for repealing the provisions of the existing law, which permitted an Englishman to be sent back to his own parish, there was ten times more justice and humanity in pressing for the repeal of a law which at this moment permitted bloated officials and unfeeling guardians in England to fling back upon his own country the poor used-up and unfortunate man who had been all his life toiling in the creation of wealth for this country. In many cases they might as well send these unfortunate people to the backwoods of Canada as to land them in the streets of Dublin, Belfast, or Cork. He had put forward the case of these unfortunate people now, in order that the right hon. Gentleman might have sufficient time to take that part of the case into his consideration. The law could not remain in its present state, because the feeling of the people of
1262
Ireland was thoroughly aroused against it. He was grateful for the measure so far as it went, but he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would not consider the case of the helpless Irish poor unworthy of his consideration.
MR. BAINESsaid, he regretted the hon. Gentleman should have supposed that he did not consider the question as one of great importance. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that he thought it of the utmost importance, and he was desirous that the house should have before it the fullest information in its power before it proceeded to legislate upon a question of so much magnitude and interest. On that account he was glad to find that an hon. Member had moved that all correspondence with the Poor Law Commissioners, both in reference to Scotland, England, and Ireland, should be laid upon the table before any legislative steps were taken. At present he felt that the House had not that information which would enable it to come to a satisfactory conclusion. He had already expressed his opinion that the law was in a most unsatisfactory state at present. In the case of Scotland and England there was now a power of removing all Irish paupers to Ireland, and the experience some years had given him of the working of the law satisfied him that it was a most injudicious arrangement, and entailed often very great hardship and injustice. At the some time, he could not help regretting that a subject like this should have been interposed by the hon. Member for Dungarvan at a time which was not well calculated to ensure it a fair amount of consideration from the House, and to which he admitted it was eminently entitled. The hon. Gentleman had brought the subject forward at a time when the House was anxious to go into Committee of Supply, and before it was in possession of sufficient information to enable it to form a satisfactory opinion upon the question. He must complain also that the hon. Gentleman had not given him any notice with regard to the nature of the statement he intended to make to the house, because if he had done so he (Mr. Baines) would have been able to meet him and state whether the information was accurate, or to show reasons for entertaining doubts of its entire accuracy. At all events, those unions and parishes to which he had referred had some reason to complain when they found the hon. Gentleman impugning the conduct of their officers

1263
without giving them intimation that such charges were to be made. Under these circumstances, the House must perceive that the only fair course would be to allow the matter to remain as it was, until the correspondence moved for by the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Bateson) should be laid on the table. If that correspondence should turn out not to be sufficient for the purpose in view, he should be willing to afford every facility for investigating further the operation of the existing law, and for putting the House in possession of such information as would enable them to decide whether, as he confessed was his own opinion, the law ought to be altered.
LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he must complain that the right hon. Gentleman, while laying down the proposed alterations in the law, had wholly omitted to notice the great injustice which was perpetrated towards the Irish paupers. The right hon. Gentleman's own statement that evening showed how well justified the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) was in taking the course he had. He had himself admitted that there ought to be a change. He was aware that official Gentlemen were usually reluctant to depart from the ordinary routine of the House, but he begged to remind them that independent Members had, according to the rules of that House, very few opportunities of bringing forward cases of grievance, and the hon. Gentleman had taken the first legitimate opportunity that presented itself. However impatient the House might be to hear the statement of the right hon. Gentleman upon the Estimates, he must say the discussion had not been without its advantage, and he was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baines) state that he intended turning his attention to these cases of hardship. He feared the correspondence to which he had referred would fall far short of supplying all the information that was required. Not one hundredth part of the cases of injustice in which the Unions found themselves fully justified in resisting the order sent them would be found in this correspondence. He could tell the right hon. Gentleman that one Union alone of the city of Dublin had been saddled with the expense of 539 paupers, who had been shipped from England during the preceding year, and he had no doubt there were many similar cases which called for serious investigation. He might instance the case
1264
of one poor person, who, after an industrial residence of forty years in London, was, at the age of eighty-two, sent back in the winter season to Ireland. These cases showed the greatest injustice and cruelty, and no temporary inconvenience should prevent any hon. Gentleman who was cognisant of similar ones bringing them at once before the House. In the district of Westminster, he could give him a case from St. Margaret's parish of one unfortunate woman, with five children, who had been thirty-two years resident there, and nine years consecutively in one house. Having received some temporary relief, she was sent by the magistrate's order, in the custody of the police, and shipped off to Ireland, without being allowed to sell her furniture or any little matters she had to dispose of. These examples might be quoted not only from London, but other towns, and in Liverpool he had heard of the case of an unfortunate man who had been twenty years residing there, and for the last ten years had resided in the same house without ever having been destitute, till by an accident he fell from the roof of a house, and applied for and obtained some temporary relief. The poor-law officials obtained an order to have him sent to the hospital, and the moment he was able to leave it, he was seized as if he had been a felon, and although 10 l. 14 s. was actually due to him, at the time, for wages, he was not allowed to get it, but was shipped off and landed in Ireland, at least 100 miles from his native place. Under these circumstances he did not think they ought to stand upon the question of whether this or that was the proper time to bring forward such cases of cruelty, and he was satisfied that such an appeal to the justice of the House would never be made in vain.
Subject dropped.

MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS—WAR WITH RUSSIA.
SIR JOHN WALSHsaid, that, in rising to call the attention of the House to the inadequacy of the military establishments of the country to meet the exigencies of the approaching war, he must say that although the state of our foreign relations had occupied a very considerable portion of the attention of the House during the last few days, yet, notwithstanding the magnitude of the subjects discussed, and the ability of the speakers on either side, a certain languor appeared to pervade the

1265
whole debate, in consequence, as he believed, of its referring for the most part to past events and bygone transactions. He now took the liberty of inviting the House to consider this great question from another point of view; to cast their eyes forward, and to consider what policy they ought to pursue in the future; to endeavour to measure the proportions of the contest into which they were about to enter, to estimate the means which they intended to employ in order to procure a successful result. He regretted being the cause of interposing any delay in going into the Committee of Supply, but he felt that the considerations he was anxious to offer to the House were of so general a character as to be more fitted for discussion in the whole House than in any particular vote in Committee. He deeply lamented the necessity of war; even that champion of peace, the Member for the West Riding, could not regret it more; but when we had actually entered into treaties of offensive and defensive alliance with France and Turkey, he conceived that it was out of the power even of the hon. Member for the West Riding himself to point out to us a means of honourably avoiding war. He hoped the House would not commit the error of underrating the importance of the approaching struggle. He had heard hon. Gentlemen say, both in and out of that House, that the power of Russia had been greatly exaggerated—that her armies existed only upon paper—that the mismanaged state of her commissariat neutralised the strength of her forces—that all her classes were demoralised and corrupted—and that, in short, her power was a mere bugbear, and she herself an ideal adversary. That was not the opinion of one whose judgment on military matters, and on national questions such as the present, was entitled to the highest consideration. The Emperor Napoleon represented the forces of Russia to be of the very first order, and said that Russia was the only country in Europe whose population were raised in the social scale by becoming soldiers. It must be recollected likewise, that, although Russia was governed by an absolute monarch, a very intense national spirit pervaded it—that the patriotism of the Russians was of a very warm character, and that in the present contest the religious feelings of the people were enlisted. Nor should it be forgotten that what the sea was to England, her steppes, her immense tracts of country, her
1266
ice-bound shores, and her rigorous climate were to Russia, and that, in fact, she was a fortress and a citadel in herself, waging war upon her opponents, assured of the comparative safety of her own interior dominions, and perfectly safe from foreign invasion. The greatest empire this world ever saw was shipwrecked and disorganised in a vain attempt to cope with her. Moreover, when once war was proclaimed in Europe—when once the peace of forty years was broken—we could not estimate what extension the war would have, or what direction it would take. Even within the last few days the theatre of the war had been extended. A war of a most embarrassing character, which might wholly change, if it proceeded, the complexion of the entire contest, had supervened, as it were, upon the original war. An insurrection had taken place among the Greek subjects of the Ottoman Porte. How far that insurrection might extend, or what direction it might finally take, was certainly, at present, a question involved in obscurity; but there were the elements of extension in it, for not only were the Greek population of European Turkey in a state of violent agitation, but there was a very considerable Christian population in Syria, which had often been disaffected, which was always turbulent, and which was warlike and capable of causing additional embarrassment. He must, therefore, confess that he viewed this part of the contest with considerable anxiety, for, whatever might be our opinion as to the justice and expediency of the cause of Turkey as against Russia, the question would certainly become very much changed if it should assume the character of a struggle between Christianity and Islamism within the territory of the Porte. But there was another point to which he would venture to call the attention of the house. Two systems of neutrality had now been declared in Europe: one, the system of neutrality declared by the northern maritime nations; the other, the system of neutrality declared by the great Germanic Powers. Now, he saw round him, perhaps, very few hon. Gentlemen who, any more than himself, had much experience of military matters, but he presumed he saw a great many who had had considerable experience of electioneering contests—those little mimic wars which bore some degree of similarity to great struggles between nations—and he would appeal to them whether, in electioneering contests, they could

1267
ever place the slightest reliance upon declarations of neutrality. Such declarations had often been made in elections in which he himself was engaged, but he never knew of one, where the contest became keen and the passions were aroused, in which these declarations were not merged in the heat and excitement of the contest; and he was quite sure that in this respect the politics upon the great stage of Europe would not differ essentially from those of a county or a borough. There was still another point to which be wished to call the attention of the House. The peace of Europe, which had now lasted for nearly forty years, was based upon the treaty of 1815–16; but shortly subsequent to the great compact a very important treaty was entered into by the Northern Powers, which had a great effect upon the politics of Europe. He alluded to that famous treaty which had been so often denounced in that House—the Holy Alliance. There were two main principles upon which that treaty was founded. First, it was a union of three great Powers against the principles of revolution and progress; but, in order to give effect to that principle, there was another necessarily superadded—that of a disclaimer on the part of these three Powers of all and every intention of territorial aggrandisement, or personal or national ambitious views, by those nations towards each other. Now the latter, at any rate, whatever might have been the disadvantages or the faults in other respects of the Holy Alliance, was a principle which in itself worked for good. The Holy Alliance was originated by the Emperor Alexander, and that disclaimer and relinquishment of all views of territorial aggrandisement had been one of the many causes which, for nearly forty years, had preserved the peace of Europe. It was now quite evident, however, that Russia had abandoned that policy—that all those obstacles which the three allied Powers opposed in Europe to the progress of national ambition and the desire of territorial aggrandisement, which in former times had been the cause of half the wars of the world, had been swept away—and that all the horrors of confusion and anarchy had been again let loose upon mankind. We had now, consequently, to deal with an altered state of things, and would necessarily be obliged to make a corresponding change in our policy. During the last forty years we had dealt with a state of
1268
peace; we had now to deal with a state of war, the extent and direction of which we had at present no means of measuring. The policy of England during the continuance of peace had been a policy based upon the assumption that war would never again exist in the world, but would be superseded by the enlightenment and progress of the age. We had now arrived at a state of things in which war was not only certain, but in which it was extremely likely that war would be for some time to come the normal condition of Europe. What, then, was the course which England should take under such circumstances—what the provision she should make to preserve her character and position as one of the first-class Powers of the world? England had never been an aggressive country—the whole of her history showed that she had nothing to gain and everything to lose from war; but still, if war did come, it was their duty to see that England should be maintained in her position as one of the greatest nations in the world. Now, it might be said that any war in which England ought to engage should be a naval war; but he thought, in answer to that, it would be sufficient to point to the fact, that before we were actually at war—when we were only drifting towards war—we found it necessary to send 25,000 men to the other extremity of Europe. If there was to be an European war, and if England was to be engaged in it, she must of necessity be both a great naval and a great military Power. And England had every possible requisite for becoming both. Napoleon had said, "With your 40,000 troops you will never become a great military Power." But why should England have an army only of 40,000 men available for foreign service? Why, he would ask, with 27,000,000 of inhabitants, with the richest country on the face of the globe, and with soldiers who had never been surpassed by any troops in the world, should we not be a military nation if an European war should occur? Not only had we the materials for making the best soldiers in the world, but we possessed the command of the seas, and that great facility of transport by steam which had infinitely augmented our power, and we enjoyed advantages in other respects which might enable us to become a powerful military nation, with a comparatively smaller number of troops than any other great country in Europe. Supposing a state of war pervaded Europe, England, as he had

1269
shown, had every means to become a great military Power. National feeling, he was sure, would respond to every demand properly made on the patriotism of the people; and he wished to know on what grounds it could be urged that we should be satisfied with assuming a second position, when we had a right to assume the first position, among the nations of the world. The English army at present was about equal in number to the army of Belgium—a second-rate State; but the English army was dispersed over all the quarters of the world, and for years past we had barely had a peace establishment. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War was now about to propose an augmentation of about 10,000 men upon the Army Estimates for last year—but would our army be then upon any other footing than that of a liberal peace establishment? In 1848–49, when we had no subject of quarrel or controversy with any other State—though certainly there were disturbances on the Continent which rendered precautionary measures prudent—our army consisted of 113,847 men. The number of men now about to be proposed for the army was rather less than 113,000 men, so that, while we were sending 25,000 men to tight the Russians in Turkey, the number of men in the army would be actually less than it was in 1848–49. In the year 1846 our army consisted of 108,600 men, and in 1847 of 108,400 men, and therefore our army this year, with the proposed augmentation, would little exceed in number the armies of 1846 and 1847, when a state of peace existed. He would ask whether this was an adequate provision for a great emergency—for a struggle with a first-rate Power of Europe? It appeared to him either that Her Majesty's Government were extravagant then, or that they were parsimonious now. It was actually proposed to diminish, though not to any great degree, the number of the cavalry—a most important arm of the service, and one that it required a very considerable time to form. He thought it was evident, then, that though Her Majesty's Government had taken advantage of the present warlike movement to get the army up again from the low numbers to which it had been screwed down by the hon. Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) and his friends to the peace establishment, which was maintained four or five years ago, they were not putting the army upon the footing of a war establishment. He did not bring forward the ques-
1270
tion with any party views, or in any spirit of hostility to Her Majesty's Ministers; indeed, he thought Her Majesty's Ministers ought to feel obliged to him for throwing out these suggestions. If it were intended to be a party or hostile move, it was certainly the choosiest ever man conceived, because the Secretary at War would most probably use his (Sir J. Walsh's) speech as an answer to that of the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Sir D. L. Evans), who had a notice on the paper to call attention to the number of troops in the Colonies which had been found necessary to protect our garrisons during forty years of peace, but were to be withdrawn during the very first year of war. He would leave the Secretary at War to answer that proposition, but he ventured to predict that the right hon. Gentleman would tell the House there was one hon. Member calling out for greater armaments and another for the withdrawal of those already existing, whilst the Government, taking the happy medium, only asked for such a force as was indispensable. He brought forward this subject, however, with no hostility, as he had already said, to the Government, but simply as an independent country gentleman, deeply sensible of the importance of the present crisis, and anxious to impress what he considered truths of a most important character upon the attention of the House and of the country. In doing so, he was supported by the opinion of that great man to whose valour we owed the blessings of the long peace which we had enjoyed. In almost the last speech which the late Duke of Wellington delivered in the House of Lords he made use of a few epigrammatic sentences, which were so germane to the subject that he could not forbear quoting them, believing also that the voice, as of one beyond the grave, would possess a weight and consideration which the words of no living man could obtain. On the 15th of June, 1852, the Duke of Wellington said:—
"As to the regular army, my Lords, I tell you that for the last ten years you have never had in your army more men than enough to relieve the sentries on duty at your stations in the different parts of the world; such is the state of your peace establishment at the present time; such has been the state of your peace establishment for the last ten years. You have been carrying on war in all parts of the globe, in the different stations, by means of this peace establishment; you have now a war at the Cape, on the very frontier of Her Majesty's dominions, still continuing which you carry on with your peace establishment; yet on that peace establishment I tell you you have not more men than are enough to relieve the sentries

1271
at the different stations in all parts of the world, and to relieve the different regiments in the tropics and elsewhere, after services there—of how long do you suppose?—of, in some cases, twenty- five years, in none less than ten years, and after which you give them five years at home, nominally—for it is only nominally in a great many cases.… My Lords, I tell you you have never had a proper peace establishment all this time."—[3 Hansard, cxxii. 729.]
Those were the words of the Duke of Wellington; and if he used those words when the country was at peace, or engaged only in little wars with distant and barbarous nations, what would he have said had he been spared to the present crisis, and seen England, with only a peace establishment, entering upon a war with the greatest and most powerful nation in Europe?
MR. ALCOCKsaid, he wished to be allowed to say a few words upon this subject, as he had, twenty-five years ago, travelled through those countries which were now the scenes of war, and had formed opinions which, whatever might be their merit, were founded upon the most honest conviction. He would not refer to any of the diplomatic negotiations which had been in progress for some time, but would come at once to the question of war with Russia. Upon that subject he only wished to refer to one particular point—namely, the question of the command of the Black Sea. In his opinion, if this country determined to have the ascendancy in that sea, there would be no difficulty whatever in compelling Russia to come to terms. He was fortified in this belief by the opinions of the English Ambassador at Paris, of M. Drouyn de Lhuys, of the Emperor Napoleon, of Lord Clarendon, and of others who were admitted to be the highest authorities upon this subject. In a letter from Lord Cowley to Lord Clarendon, dated the 16th of December, Lord Cowley said that he had had a very long interview with M. Drouyn de Lhuys; that they had discussed the affair of Sinope, and the question of sending the fleets into the Black Sea; that they had come to the conclusion that, unfortunately, they had not the power to compel the suspension of hostilities by acting on the Danube or in Asia Minor, but that they had it in their power to compel the suspension of hostilities by obtaining the superiority in the Black Sea, and by sweeping that sea of the Russian flag. In another part of the same letter, Lord Cowley spoke of Russia as being paramount in the Black Sea, and observed that that sea could be considered
1272
little else than a Russian lake. The question had already been asked, but he thought it had not been very satisfactorily answered—why, attaching so much importance to these facts, the French and English Governments did not send their fleets into the Black Sea before the affair of Sinope? But, if there was any difficulty in explaining why the fleets did not enter the Black Sea before the affair of Sinope, why, he asked, did not they enter that sea immediately after the destruction of the Turkish ships at Sinope? He did not attach any blame to Her Majesty's Government with reference to that matter; on the contrary, he considered that Lord Clarendon had behaved very nobly on the subject, and he (Mr. Alcock) had not a word to say except in praise of Her Majesty's Government. But there was a vast difference between the conduct of the Government in this country and the conduct of the British Ambassador at Constantinople. He (Mr. Alcock) might refer, on this point, to two letters in the published correspondence—one addressed by Lord Clarendon to Lord Stratford on the 17th of December, and the other addressed by Lord Stratford to Lord Clarendon on the same day. Lord Clarendon, in his letter, alluding to the affair of Sinope, said:—
"Your Excellency, no doubt, will have already sent the fleets into the Black Sea. No particular instructions, it seems to us, are necessary; we have engaged to support Turkey against the hostile aggressions of Russia, and we are bound to stand by that engagement."
Of a very different spirit and character was the letter of Lord Stratford. Having stated that he was about to send the combined fleets into the Black Sea, he went on to say, in effect:—
"But your Lordship may be disposed to ask why I have not done this sooner—why I have not sent the combined fleets to avenge themselves for the dreadful attack on Sinope—why I have waited until this time?"
And what did the House think were Lord Stratford's reasons? Lord Stratford assigned five reasons for the delay—three principal and two inferior reasons. His first reason was, want of information as to the movements of the Russian fleet in the Black Sea. But the best way of discovering the movements of the Russian fleet would have been by sending out the combined fleets to confront it. In the very same letter of the 17th of December, however, Lord Stratford showed that he was acquainted with the movements of the

1273
Russian fleet, for he mentioned that on the 8th of December that fleet, consisting of twelve sail of the line, had been seen on the cost of the Crimea. Lord Stratford's second reason was an unwillingness to incur the risk of a collision by premature provocation; but, when the diplomatic negotiations between this country and Russia had been going on for so long a time, and when the barbarous massacre of Sinope had taken place, he (Mr. Alcock) thought it was absurd to talk of premature provocation. Lord Stratford's third reason was that he thought it better to wait for an invitation from the Turkish Government; but it would be found from the published despatches that such an invitation had been given on the 4th of December, when Reshid Pasha requested that the combined fleets might enter the Black Sea. The two inferior reasons assigned by Lord Stratford were, that the north-west winds prevailed and had delayed the arrival of the English fleet from Besika Bay, and that about the time in question a change of the French Ambassadors at Constantinople took place. He (Mr. Alcock) must say that, under the circumstances, it was a matter of surprise to hint that immediately after the affair of Sinope the Russians did not avail themselves of the apathy of Lord Stratford and at once take Trebizond. He had been induced to make these remarks against Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, he need not say, from no personal motives, but because blame must be laid somewhere, and it appeared to him that this was the quarter in which it ought to be laid. Why had the British navy been tied down in the Bosphorus, contrary to their natural feelings, for they must have been burning to sail into the Black Sea? The result of keeping them back was that opportunities had been lost which we should scarcely ever have again, The Government had now to despatch troops to Constantinople, but the war would have been put an end to at the time he referred to if the fleets had been sent into the Black Sea with full power to act against the Russians. He believed there was yet time to repair the mistake which had been made. Let the combined fleets sweep the Black Sea of the Russian flag, and the war would soon be at an end. The possession of the Black Sea was not only important from the material power it gave, but from the moral power it also conferred. In the first place, if the English and French fleets held possession of that sea, the Russian
1274
fleet could no longer assail that of Turkey, nor could it co-operate as in 1828–29 with land forces from Odessa or Sebastopol, below the line of the Balkan. That was most important, because it was only from that co-operation on the part of their fleet that the Russians got to Adrianople in their last campaign against the Turks. Then, again, by holding the Black Sea, we should at once put an end to the possibility of reinforcements being conveyed to the Russian troops in Georgia, and other parts north and south of the Caucasus, and the consequence would be, that all the fortresses, extending for 300 miles on the coast, and including Anapa, SudjoukKale-Julendjik and Poti, would easily fall, the existence of which alone prevented the Turks co-operating with the Circassians. The House would recollect that the people of the Caucasus, who had for so many years defended themselves single-handed against the whole power of Russia, occupied a country as large as the whole of England and Wales, composed of a succession of fastnesses and natural fortresses, and it was not an unreasonable expectation that, if that indomitable people were properly assisted, they would soon take advantage of their opportunity, and Georgia (one of the richest provinces of Russia) would be wrested from the dominion of the Czar. These were some of the material advantages; and then, looking at the moral effect, what would the people of Bessarabia and the Crimea, and all the discontented nations under Russian rule, do if they once knew that the ascendancy of Russia in the Black Sea was at an end, and that the British navy was paramount there? Why, it would be nothing less than a deathblow to Russia, and it would then rest with the allies to make their own terms. In conclusion, he would reiterate his opinion that great blame attached to our Ambassador at Constantinople for his want of decision and straightforward conduct in not taking that course with regard to the entry of the fleets into the Black Sea which was marked out for him by his own Government, and still more by the Government of our ally.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he had a notice on the paper to call the attention of the House to the large number of troops employed in the Colonies. He had on a former occasion attempted to advocate a reduction of the military force in the Colonies, and he thought it was more opportune at the present moment than at any

1275
other period—not, as the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh) supposed, because he wished to diminish the military force of the country, but because his object was to place an additional force at the disposal of the Government. During the last two or three years several hon. Gentlemen, besides himself, had adverted to the great number of troops in the Colonies, and the propriety of their being diminished, considering that, as free trade had been established and free institutions had been conceded to the majority of them, the time had arrived to oblige the Colonies, if they wanted troops, to maintain them at their own expense, and not to have the British army disseminated over those Colonies in small detachments at a great additional expense and without any advantage to the Imperial Crown. He found, from the observations of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), that he readily complied with those suggestions, and promised that several regiments should be withdrawn from the Colonies; but he was very sorry to find, by a return laid on the table of the House within the last few days, that, instead of diminishing the force in the Colonies, they had been increased, and had now reached the enormous number of 47,000 men of all arms. Considering that the whole force disposable for war and the defence of our home territories was only 64,000 men, he thought 47,000 a very large and unnecessary force to be retained in the Colonies. He did not propose to touch the garrisons, as the hon. Baronet seemed to fear. He was aware that the garrisons must be kept up in the fortresses, and he should not say a word on that subject. He would, however, advert to two or three principal items. He found that Canada, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and our other North American Colonies had 6,400 men; the West Indies, 5,300; the Cape of Good Hope, he lamented to see, 8,000, besides irregular troops, which were very expensive; Ceylon, 3.000; and the Australian Colonies, 3,400. He understood that one of the Australian Colonies had consented to charge itself with a battalion. That was a beginning, though a very small one, but he trusted this example would be generally followed. He contended that the whole of the British troops in the Colonies ought to be maintained at the expense of the colonists. He would not go into detail, except with regard to our Canadian Colonies. That splendid colony had now an independent Govern-
1276
ment of its own. He found the revenue for the last year was 723,000 l., and the expenses, including interest on debt and sinking fund, was 535,000 l., leaving a surplus of 188,000 l.; and, with this surplus of 188,000 l., the mother-country was still left to defray the charges of the military forces of that colony. There were the fortresses of Quebec and Montreal, in which garrisons should be kept; but the noble Earl who was then at the head of the colony had advised, two or three years back, that the number of troops should be reduced to 1,500 or 2,000 men. He considered that that advice ought to have been followed, and that 1,500 or 2,000 men would be quite sufficient to garrison the fortresses to which he had alluded. In that case there would be 3,400 men disposable for the service for which they were now likely to be required. He was especially at a loss to understand why so many as 1,000 men of the Artillery and Sappers and Miners should be kept in the Canadas alone. There was another colony which was in so flourishing a state that last year its revenue had nearly doubled—he alluded to the colony of Nova Scotia; and yet this country was required to pay a military force for its defence, although there was no external danger whatever to be apprehended. In point of fact, with respect to these colonies the troops there were doing little more than police duties. He had no wish to detain the House from going into the Estimates, but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War would take the subject into his consideration and give a satisfactory answer. He knew that there was a constant pressure on the Government on the part of the Colonies against the withdrawal of the troops; but it could not be expected that, whatever the colonists might wish, that House would permit the continuance of this unnecessary expense. There was another topic with respect to which his name appeared upon the paper, upon which he proposed to make a very few remarks. Great complaints had been made in the public prints with respect to the advanced age of the general officers of the Army. It was for the Government and not for him to say whether those complaints were well founded or not. He was afraid it was so to a very considerable extent, and he thought it was not to be wondered at. The notice which he had given suggested either that the intervals between the military brevets should be shortened, or that

1277
seniority should no longer be the sole ground of making promotions to the rank of general officers; or that the selection should be made upon the ground of merit, or of fitness for command, which he thought would be the best rule of all. If seniority was to be perpetually the rule, and five or six years to continue to be the interval, it must of necessity happen that the higher ranks would be constantly filled by old men. If they compared the Army with the Navy, they would find that, although the former was, in point of fact, threefold more numerous than the latter, the Navy had a greater number of admirals than the Army had of generals. To improve the efficiency of the flag list, an arrangement had been made some little time ago by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring), then at the head of the Admiralty, for limiting the list of effective flag officers to 100, and for placing the remainder on the non-effective or retired list. What was called the effective list contained 100 admirals, and the non-effective list 199; but, owing to the extraordinary ingenuity of the right hon. Baronet, he believed that a great number even of the former were troubled with gout and other little matters which would be likely materially to impair their fitness for active service. He did not, therefore, ask that the rule which prevailed in the Navy might be extended to the Army, but certainly some remedy for the existing state of things was imperatively called for. It was, moreover, quite unfair to send out, as they were doing, a number of officers of the rank of colonel to take the command of brigades, because they had not officers enough of the higher grade to undertake that duty. In the present state of the service there was, probably, no option. But was it fair to call upon these officers to undertake the duties and responsibilities of a rank higher than their own, without giving them, at the same time, the rank and pay? Would the same kind of rule be considered just if it were applied to the civil service—if, instead of promoting persons from subordinate positions to fill the vacancies occasioned by the retirement or incapacity of their superiors, they compelled them to do the duty for half pay, giving them only a kind of local or temporary rank? He thought that where the duty was thrown, the rank and pay ought to follow; and he hoped the subject would engage the serious attention of the Government, as in the present circumstances
1278
of the country, it unquestionably ought, and that there was no truth in the report that it was intended to be referred to a Commission, because questions which were so dealt with were almost invariably shelved.
MR. F. FRENCHwas disposed to doubt whether the power of Russia was so formidable as it had been considered to be. In the campaign of 1828 and 1829, although the Danube and Balkan were undefended, and there was but a very little fighting at Shumla, Varna, and Silistria, it still took the Russians two years to get to Adrianople; and he had it on the authority of Lord Ponsonby that, at the moment when peace was signed, Russia had only 7,000 available bayonets, and that out of the immense force, 120,000 men and 300 guns, which crossed the Pruth two years before, only 15,000 returned to their own country. Turkey at the present moment stood in a very different position from that in which she was then placed. She now had a large army in first-rate order, her artillery was second to none in the world, and she had proved that her own troops alone were competent to her defence; but, if even they were beaten at Kalafat, and the Balkan was turned by Sophia, the contingent of France and England would meet the Russians successfully when they emerged upon the plains of Adrianople. He could not agree with the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Alcock), that any blame was to be attached to our Ambassador at Constantinople, nor, on the other hand, could he concur in the praise which had been bestowed on the Government for the line of policy they had pursued. The Government had been guilty of grave errors, both of omission and commission, in this matter. The first error to which he would advert was non-compliance with the request sent by Colonel Rose that the fleet should proceed to Constantinople. He knew it was said that Colonel Rose had afterwards expressed his satisfaction that this request had not been complied with, but it was worthy of notice that from the time that Colonel Rose sent for the fleet an altered tone was observable in the negotiations. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty had approved of the refusal of Admiral Dundas to leave Malta—so did the Emperor of Russia, as shown by the complimentary message conveyed from him to Lord Aberdeen in Count Nesselrode's despatch. How strange it was that all Sovereigns entertaining hos-

1279
tile feelings towards England, as Louis Philippe at the time of the Spanish marriages—Nicholas on the question of the Greek and Latin Churches—are gratified at, and grateful for the beau rôle played by this noble Lord. He (Mr. French) doubted that the approval of these Sovereigns would enhance his merits, whatever they might be, in the eyes of the British public. The next point was the non-interference of the British fleet after it did go up to Constantinople. Admiral Dundas had a force quite sufficient to fulfil the engagements into which we bad entered to give assistance to the Turks, but at Constantinople it was a matter of doubt whether the fleet had been sent to assist the Turks against Russia, or to coerce the subjects of the Porte. Had the fleet gone as directed by the Ambassador to the Black Sea one week before the disaster at Sinope, that unfortunate event would not have occurred, and he believed that not only had we been the cause of that disaster, by our fleet not going into the Black Sea, but that it was through the interference of British agency the Turks had not been allowed to protect themselves. There were letters from Admiral Slade in this country to the effect that he was perfectly competent to deal with the Russian fleet with the ships under his command; but Lord Stratford interfered, and they found him writing to Lord Clarendon that he had succeeded in dissuading the Porte from sending a detachment of line-of-battle ships into the Black Sea. Indeed, the friends of Admiral Slade expected to hear of a victory over the Russian fleet, when the news came of the destruction of the Turkish flotilla at Sinope. On the 5th of November Lord Stratford writes to M. Pisani:—
"I have just heard that orders are come up for sending four line-of-battle ships and ten sailing frigates into the Black Sea-to-morrow. In consequence of this I shall not order up the remainder of the squadron until the intended enterprise is abandoned."
This squadron was destined for Sinope. The threat was effectual, and the expedition was given up. The same day the Ambassador writes to Lord Clarendon:—
"I have succeeded in dissuading the Porte from sending a detachment of line-of-battle ships and frigates into the Black Sea at this moment."
We neither protected the Turks nor allowed them to defend themselves. Then, when our fleet did go into the Black Sea, what did they do? We sent war steamers
1280
to Batoum, within twenty-seven miles of St. Nicholas, which place was bombarded after our entry into the Black Sea, and no explanation of this circumstance had yet been given, nor of the cause of their return. It was said they were induced to do so from stress of weather, but the Turks declared that they never had better weather than at this time. The steamers returned, too, in opposition to the orders of the Ambassador. The noble Lord had approved the course taken by the Admiral. No sooner had they returned than the Russian fleet came out, threatening the whole coast of Circassia, and the British merchants at Trebizond were compelled to solicit protection. Under these circumstances, it was not wonderful that questions were raised as to the conduct of the British Government. What was Lord Stratford's opinion of the course that was taken may be judged from his letters. On the 17th of December he writes to Lord Clarendon:—
"I cannot conceal from myself that the late destruction of the many Turkish ships at Sinope would not have taken place had the fleets been sent up the Black Sea at an earlier period. Forgive me, my Lord, if, in the combination of circumstances, all tending to the same conclusion, I cannot lose sight of public opinion, or that matured judgment which later times will pronounce on our conduct."
The Vienna correspondent of the Times says that Count Buol was so afraid that the Western Powers, after Sinope, would assume the offensive, that an uninterrupted telegraphic communication was kept up with Paris and London, till his apprehensions were relieved by an assurance, "that no step would be taken that could interrupt negotiations." In whom was the command of the fleet vested? Foreign Secretary, Ambassador, or Admiral? Lord Clarendon says, that Lord Stratford was allowed to have the disposal of the fleet, if he considered the assistance of a British force absolutely essential to the safety of the Turkish empire; that Her Majesty's Government, however, were desirous that his Excellency should understand they by no means intend to depart from the moderation and conciliatory course, which they had always adopted; and concluded by informing him that force should only be resorted to as a last and unavoidable resource for the protection of Turkey from an unprovoked attack. For what was the fleet sent to Constantinople? Lord Clarendon declared to Baron Brunnow that it was merely to protect British

1281
interests—to Mons. Drouyn de Lhuys, that it was to assist Turkey. How can you accuse the Emperor of Russia of want of straightforward dealing, when such is the course taken by a British Minister? He gave Ministers credit for their desire to preserve peace, though the means they took to bring it about would have, if successful, left matters in a far worse state than they found them, and forced all Europe into war to resettle the balance of power on a safer basis. Their negotiations were described by Lord Ponsonby as "based on fear of Russia." He writes, "The present pusillanimity is the promoter of danger, it is the fosterer of shame, it is the offspring of ignorance, it has disgraced the country in the eyes of other nations." Such was the deliberate opinion of a Minister of the highest intellect and greatest experience in Europe. The Emperor of Russia had reason to complain of the treatment he had received. His demands in relation to the Holy Places were approved of here by Lord Aberdeen, before they were presented to the Sultan by Prince Menchikoff, and were supported by England at Constantinople. The intended occupation of the Danubian provinces was known and not objected to here. So early as the 7th January the Government had ample information that Russia was prepaying military forces to carry out her objects, whatever those objects might be. They had similar advices in March, and again in April. It was true that Count Nesselrode's answers to representations on this subject were evasive; but there were the like accounts from our own consuls and agents in or near the countries where the forces were being collected. How was this information received by the Government? Merely by sanguine hopes that the Emperor of Russia would refrain from further increasing his forces or abstain from using them. Was there any language of remonstrance heard from the British Government? Was there any attempt to point out the gross injustice which Russia was about to commit, to throw the responsibility upon the Emperor of measures which would inevitably throw Europe into collision, and to point out to him that, if he drew the sword and took possession of territory which did not belong to him, he would be responsible for all the fatal consequences that might ensue? Not a bit of it. The Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on the 8th of June, wrote a despatch to the British Minister at St. Petersburg, in which he said:—
1282
"The Emperor cannot doubt the warm feelings of friendship towards himself entertained by our Gracious Sovereign, and his Imperial Majesty must be also aware that it is alike the duty and the desire of Her Majesty's Government to maintain the most cordial relations with Russia, feeling how essential such relations are to the peace of Europe, and viewing, as they do, with alarm and abhorrence, whatever may tend to the interruption of that peace. Her Majesty's Government do not believe that Europe can be in danger of the terrible calamity of war from a question such as that which is now pending at Constantinople: they do not believe that the door will be finally closed against an arrangement which to them appears to be still practicable; and they venture, therefore, to hope that the demands of Russia may be confined to the recapitulation of existing treaties and their due fulfilment, but without seeking to extend that influence over the Greek subjects of the Porte that Russia must always and necessarily exercise."
It was upon language such as this that the Emperor of Russia must have founded the conviction that he expressed, that Great Britain would never go to war upon a question like the present. He admitted Lord Clarendon to be both an able and a ready writer, as well as a skilful diplomatist, but they had yet to learn that he was a statesman. He (Mr. French) feared he was of too flexible material not to bend under the weight of a heavy superior. He ventured to assert that had the noble Lord the Member for London, or the noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, been at the head of the Government, the disaster of Sinope would not have taken place, nor would a single soldier have crossed the Pruth. To the well-known political predilections, supposed infirmity of purpose, and temporising policy of the noble Lord at the head of the Government, was owing the position in which the country was now placed. He believed that the antecedents of the noble Lord at the head of the Government had encouraged the demands of Russia, and paralysed the exertions of the fleet, and that if he remained at the head of the Government, no arrangement satisfactory to Europe was likely to take place. The Russian Emperor speculated on the weakness, and acted on the indecision, of the Prime Minister, but he believed it would have been different if the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), or the noble Lord now at the Home Office, had been charged with the management of our foreign affairs, and the maintenance of the honour of England. If such was, as he believed it was, the opinion of the House, then he thought it would be the duty of the House to declare so. There was always a considera-

1283
tion of personal feelings in matters of this kind, but he believed it was of the last importance that we should at the present moment have for the conduct of our foreign affairs men who possessed the entire confidence of the country.
MR. HADFIELDsaid, he must express his strong dissent from the sentiments of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for he highly approved of the conduct of the Government in making war their dernier ressort. So far from having suffered by delay, he thought we had obtained vast and almost incalculable advantages by it. The noble Lord at the head of the Government had declared to the world that the policy of this country was peace; and the desire we had shown to avoid war must have convinced the world at large that the sentiment which the noble Lord had uttered was not a mere profession. Thrice armed was he whose quarrel was right, and since we had not willingly entered into this struggle, but had been driven to it, Europe would find the wrath of the peaceful man more effectual than the fury of the enraged Emperor.
Lord JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he must object to the course which the discussion was now taking, as contrary to all precedent. There had been a lengthened debate upon this subject, and the House had expressed its opinion that supplies should be granted for the purpose of carrying on the war, if the country should be involved in war. The Government had not shrunk from debate, and he thought the House would now be acting only in conformity with its expressed opinion by allowing them to go into Committee.
House in Committee; Mr. BOUVERIE in the chair.

SUPPLY—THE ARMY ESTIMATES.
(1.) 112,977 Laud Forces, number of men.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERT: Mr. Bouverie, I am sure the hon. and gallant Officer who addressed the House a short time ago, making some observations on the distribution of troops, and the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh) who objected to the amount of force proposed in the present estimate will not think me guilty of any disrespect towards them in having waited until the House had gone into Committee before noticing the observations which they had made. Before I do so I will state—and I will endeavour to do it as shortly as I can—the changes which are embraced in the present estimate, stating at the outset
1284
that the present estimate must not be looked to as the final estimate or the year. The Government thought it more consonant with their duty to allow the House to discuss their policy, being a policy on which any large increase of estimate would be necessarily founded, before laying any such large increase before the House. This, therefore, must be looked on as an estimate formed in time of peace, but in anticipation of events which might follow. Now, it will be seen that the proposed increase of men amounts, speaking in round numbers, to 10,600; but the increase really is rather larger than that, owing to the reductions which have taken place in some of the colonial corps, and particularly in the Ceylon corps, in which a large reduction has been effected, because it was found that in the course of years the recruiting ground of the Ceylon rifles did not afford a sufficiently large population to recruit the regiment up to the requirements of the establishment. Allowing for these reductions, we may consider that the increase of British troops—Guards and infantry of the line—amounts in round numbers to 11,000 men, and that the increase of cost will be 300,000 l. The increase in the whole estimate, however, will be balanced by very considerable reductions in the non-effective departments of the service. There are some items of increase over which I can have no control, as in the case of the Military Asylum, the Hibernian School, and the hospitals at Chelsea and Kilmainham, where the increase in the price of provisions has of course had considerable effect. By the constant application and vigilance of the military authorities, there is a reduction of something like 33,000 l. The attention of the Government has for some time past been systematically turned to the staff, and the reductions in consequence have been considerable; but in spite of that, there has again this year been a reduction at Canada, the Cape, Hong Kong, Nova Scotia, and the West Indies, amounting to about 5,000 l.
Before I state the degree to which the concentration and withdrawal of troops from foreign stations has increased the effective power of the army, I should like to mention what changes have been made during the year in its interior organisation. Upon the subject of education in the army, very considerable changes have been made this year. In the first place, the pay of the schoolmasters is about to be put on an entirely different footing from that on which it was heretofore. Hitherto the

1285
schoolmasters have been paid a very small fixed stipend, and have had to trust for the rest of their receipts to what they could get by fees from the men, their scholars. It was thought, as it turned out erroneously, that the effect of that system would be, that, their pay depending on their activity and their exertions, they would, from motives of interest, keep up the numbers of their scholars. But it was found on experience, that this was not so. It was found that the popularity of the school, and the number of men attending it, depended far more on the interest taken in it by the officers than on the degree of efficiency in the schoolmaster; for of his efficiency the great majority of the men were not able to judge, whilst if they found the officers of their regiment taking an interest in the school, they were immediately stimulated into attendance. The result was, that we had some of the very best schoolmasters which Chelsea had produced, receiving the lowest rates of remuneration, and, on the other hand, some of the worst receiving the highest; and there were constant complaints from those who considered themselves in off, and requests from them to be removed to what they considered better regiments, that is, to regiments where the attendance was better. Under these circumstances I proposed to Lord Hardinge that the system, not answering, should be changed, and that, instead of the faulty mode of payment then existing, there should be three fixed rates of pay, into which the fees should be merged applicable to three classes of schoolmasters. I suggested this change, and, at the same time, proposed that promotion from one class to another should be by merit, and by merit alone. I had no doubt that the hope of appreciation and reward would be in this, as in other professions, the very best stimulus to exertion. This system, I believe, will tend to promote zeal among the schoolmasters, and will induce them to use every exertion to keep the schools in a high state of efficiency. I hope that it will also improve the somewhat anomalous position of the regimental schoolmaster, who is at present considered neither fish, flesh, nor fowl. I need not say that the result of this school system has as yet been extremely good, and that the army has derived great advantage from its introduction.
The Committee will perhaps recollect—in reference to the education of officers, to which I propose now to advert—that some
1286
few years ago the late Duke of Wellington issued an order that no candidate for a commission in the army should receive one, unless he had passed a certain standard examination. The Duke of Wellington also stated that it was his wish that no officer of the army should be promoted from a subaltern rank to a company, unless he had passed an examination proving him fit for the transition. The Duke of Wellington then said, that in the first examination all you need wish to obtain was the knowledge that the young man had had the education of a gentleman, and that he possessed the abilities to take full advantage of that education. But of the second examination his Grace spoke differently; and he said that it should show not merely that the candidate had had a liberal education, but that he had applied it by turning Iris mind to military studies, and to an acquaintance with the theory of his profession. The present examination for the first commission is conducted at Sandhurst; and about it I do not wish to enter into details; but my impression is, that the education there is too limited, and within its limits too severe. It is too limited, because certain text books only are required to be studied, and the young man who has not even the best memory, but the quickest memory, is most successful. My own impression is, that that is not a fair or a desirable system, and that it might be thus improved:—By allowing a young man who had had a fair liberal education to be examined in what it is stated that he had learned, by making that the test of his fitness as regarded sufficiency of instruction, and by only considering further his ability to take advantage of the education, the liberal education, which he had received. That is all you want in the first examination. In the second it is different. You then want a professional examination; you want to know that, in addition to a fair gentlemanly education, your officer has applied his mind to mathematical and strategetical studies, to such studies as will render him efficient as an officer. I know there is an objection, which I consider fallacious, to this examination, that, by it, you will get men who are book-worms instead of getting the active spirits you require. There is this answer to that, that if the officer who has studied his profession is the worse for his studies, then you must admit that the whole body of the Artillery and Engineers, who are all men of reading and great scientific knowledge, are unfit for

1287
their profession; and that I am sure you will not do. There remains, however, this difficulty—a more reasonable one, to my mind—that the means of study given to different officers would not be the same, and that they would, on the contrary, vary extremely with the localities in which they were quartered. For instance, the officer quartered in England has access to all the best and newest books, whilst he who is quartered in the backwoods of Canada or elsewhere, is, of course, isolated from all access of the kind. It is proposed, by way of removing this difference of opportunities, to establish at the head quarters of certain districts an officer, whom you may call "Captain of Instruction," or what you please, who will be known as professor of military studies in that district; and on whom it will be arranged that every subaltern officer shall get leave to attend. Thus every such officer would be able to go through a course of instruction before he became a lieutenant, and through another course of instruction before he became a captain. It is intended that there shall be an examination on both these occasions; but, of course, great care must be taken, and will be taken, at first, not to make the standard of these examinations too high, but to arrange it so as to give those who had to go through it every encouragement to qualify themselves. With regard to the instruction and education of the men, I need only say that one proof of the degree to which that instruction is popular among them is shown in the increasing number of volumes which they use, and of the number of persons subscribing to the military libraries. They were instituted in 1840; each man paid a penny per month, and the officers one day's pay in the year. The number of books when the libraries were first established was 5,000, and it is now 118,000, and the number of men subscribing is between 15,000 and 16,000.
It was suggested by the hon. and gallant Officer (Sir De L. Evans), that there is not at present any sufficient means of education for the post of army surgeon. With especial reference to this question, I have made inquiries both at Paris and Vienna as to the training provided for those who are candidates for employment in their armies as medical officers. At Paris I find they have gone into an extreme which works very ill. They take medical students and educate them exclusively for military surgeons, entirely for-
1288
getting that in nine cases out of ten a military surgeon's duties differed in no way from those of an ordinary surgeon. On the other hand here, except at Edinburgh, it is impossible to get instruction of the peculiar character necessary to make a complete military surgeon. Now, what we propose is, not to diminish by any means the general studies of young men wishing to become military surgeons, but to super-add to those general studies a course of lectures on military surgery; these to be given in Edinburgh, Dublin, and London. The House must be aware that no army in the world requires this course of study so much as our own. Last year, for instance, in Barbadoes, a colony which had hitherto been considered as comparatively healthy and the freest from that terrible scourge of all the West India Islands, the yellow fever broke out, and, notwithstanding all that the doctors there could do, it did not abate. To fill vacancies only too frequent we were obliged to send out medical men from England; but what were they? Men who had studied every disease but this, which they had had no means of studying in England. It is most necessary that before young men become army surgeons they should have the opportunity of making themselves acquainted with the diseases of tropical climates, as well as the peculiar diseases incident to the soldier's life. Under these circumstances, we are going to extend to London and Dublin the advantages of the establishment which already exists at Edinburgh, and we hope to make arrangements for a course of lectures there by next autumn. These lectures, I believe, will be attended with a double advantage. Not only will they be of the greatest value to students, but a great number of army surgeons also will gladly have recourse to them for the purpose of adding to the stock of knowledge they already possess.
Now, Sir, let me say, in passing from this subject of the education of the soldiers, that there has been a very remarkable improvement in their conduct. It was the custom for many years to govern in the army almost entirely by the fear of punishment; it has been the custom now, for some years, to govern it by the hope of reward. The difference, I rejoice to say, has been very remarkable. Under the former system the man entered for life, at least for twenty-one years, during all which time the best he could hope was not to be flogged, not to be imprisoned, and so on.

1289
Under the present system he has not this only motive of the dread of punishment—he has the immediate hope of reward, by the increase of his pay, and he has the assurance that ultimately, in the case of long service, he will obtain an increase of his pension, supposing his merits to entitle him to it. Lately, too, we have made a difference with regard to men who have given twenty-one years of good service. The practice was to give them a medal after their discharge; but that, however gratifying to them, had, for the purposes of example, but little effect. We have changed that practice, and now we give this medal after eighteen years, and he who has earned it wears it from that time till the time of his discharge. We have likewise made changes with regard to the accommodation of troops on board ship; and more especially with contract packets. The effect of all these changes has been most marked in the conduct of the men, the excellence of which increases every year. This year I may mention, if anything were wanting to prove the greater than ordinary frugality of the men, that there has been an augmentation in the amount they have invested in the savings banks. In 1844 the number of depositors was 1,890, the amount deposited 14,849 l.; in 1853 the number of depositors was 10,723, the amount deposited 124,000 l. As to of-fences, the number of persons in military prisons is diminishing; but on this point I will read an extract from the governor of the prison in Limerick:—
"From a force comprising so many men as that which sends its delinquents to this prison, only 172 have been received during the last year, a fact which, it is my privilege to say, exhibits a decrease in the percentage admitted in former years. That this gratifying result is to be attributed exclusively, or even chiefly, to the dread of military prisons, would not, I think, be a correct conclusion. Mere punishment, however rigorous and severe, will not deter the soldier from offending. I cannot, therefore, but regard the decrease of military offences as, in a great measure, the happy consequence of that system of education and reward which is now so beneficially operating upon the soldier, and teaching him to realise the importance and advantage of respectability and faithfulness. The excellent conduct of the troops serving in this district is additionally gratifying and observable, since during the past year drunkenness has, I regret to say, very lamentably increased among the lower orders in this part of the United Kingdom."
Now, Sir, having gone through these heads, let me say that the military authorities, while paying this attention to the individual comforts of our soldiers, and to
1290
the means by which the character of the men could be formed, have not neglected to take measures for securing the general efficiency of the forces. Last year I took from the estimates a sum for the purpose of completing an establishment at Hythe, where we could obtain—what in this country it is now very difficult to obtain—a sufficiently long range for practice in shooting. Before the completion of that establishment the practice of the musket had been extremely neglected, and in some regiments there was scarcely any ball-cartridge used in the course of the year. That state of things is now remedied. To that establishment a certain number of privates and non-commissioned officers go from each regiment in their turn; there they obtain practice and instruction; and then they go back to their regiments, able to instruct those whom they left behind them. The consequence is that there is hardly a regiment which will not soon be thoroughly masters of what lately was so generally neglected. A gentleman, a competent judge, came to me the other day, having spent a day at Hythe, where, he told me, he had seen almost more than he could believe. He saw the men at practice with the Minié rifle, and out of 100 shots seventy-seven were put into a target eight feet high, representing cavalry, at 800 yards distance. He had also seen the men skirmishing—shooting without any measured distance, and obliged to guess at it—which, as any one accustomed to rifle shooting knew, was a great disadvantage, and yet out of fifty shots forty were put into the target.
And now, Sir, I come to the point which was mentioned by the hon. and gallant Officer (Sir De L. Evans), who asked what are the Government's intentions—first, with regard to the troops to be allotted to the Colonies; and secondly, with regard to promotions in the army. I agree entirely with what he said as to the distribution of troops in the Colonies, but I must call his attention to the fact that the return he has quoted is a misleading return. The return of the 1st of April, 1853, really gives the force existing in 1852. The next return which appears will give the hon. and gallant Officer the right figures for 1853, and by it he will find that the number of troops in the Colonies has been very considerably diminished since the present Government came into office. Five thousand men, I think, have been withdrawn in that time from the Cape, North America, and the

1291
West Indies. But you have to put against these the augmentation that has been made in the garrisons of the Mediterranean. During the last year, whilst reductions have been taking place in Canada, the West Indies, and the Cape, an addition has been made of upwards of 1,800 men at Malta, Gibraltar, and the Ionian Islands; and it is obvious that at the present moment these three garrisons form the basis of our operations in the East. I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Government were right in withdrawing troops from the West Indies. There have been complaints of that, though; but there always are complaints if you remove troops from any colony. Since the gold discoveries, Australia has maintained a regiment from its our resources. A regiment is given on the condition that they pay all the expenses except arms and clothing; and if they want any further troops they will be sent to them on the same terms, and on the same terms only. In short, the Government have made considerable reductions so far as regards the hon. and gallant Officer's first inquiry. With regard to the hon. and gallant Member's other question, the attention of the Government has also been drawn to that subject. It is certainly true that there have been appointments of colonels and lieutenant-colonels to act as brigadiers in consequence of the advanced age of general officers; but the hon. and gallant Member will be gratified to learn that the Government have decided to issue a Commission to inquire into the mode of appointments and retirements in the army, with a view to see what means can be adopted to bring up men more rapidly in promotion, and at a period of greater vigour. The names of the Commissioners are such as to inspire confidence on all sides. First, there are the two eminent military authorities, Lord Hardine and Lord Raglan; two general officers, Lord Cathcart and Lord Seaton; two colonels, Colonel Buller and Colonel Knowles; two ex-Secretaries of State, Earl Grey and Sir John Pakington; two ex-Secretaries at War, Lord Panmure and Mr. Ellice; and myself. With regard to the observations which have fallen from the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Walsh), I certainly think the hon. Baronet has underrated the military power of this country, and when he quoted the dictum of Napoleon that this country never could be a military Power because it could not raise more than 40,000 men, he forgot one impor-
1292
tant point, that if actually raised 140,000. The hon. Baronet omitted, too, the great augmentation that has been made in the Artillery, which has been increased from 14,000 to 19,000 men. I must remind those who think the present estimate is not large enough, that I do not propose this as a war estimate to the Committee. The Government wished to have their policy discussed before making any great augmentation. It may not be so satisfactory to the Committee as to the hon. Baronet, but I have to state that I must before long bring before you a supplementary estimate. At present I will not delay the Committee any further, but only move that the number of land forces, officers and men, for the ensuing year, be 1,12,977.
MR. HUMEsaid, he cordially congratulated the Government on the great success which had attended the amended system of rewards and punishments. He hoped they would persevere in the system, which was one that he had advocated for many years past. He was also gratified to find so large an increase of depositors in the military savings banks. He was also glad to hear that it was in contemplation to establish medical schools for the Army. With respect to the Colonies, anxious as he generally was to reduce the military force in them, he thought there was great cause why they should not withdraw troops from these Colonies which had been almost ruined by legislation in this country, and which were hardly in a condition at present to maintain even their own police. He thought it likely disorders might arise in the troops were withdrawn thence. But as regarded the whole of the North American colonies, he was of opinion the troops might be withdrawn from then to strengthen our military establishment here. He should be very glad to hear from Her Majesty's Government that they intended to pay some regard to the unfortunate Colonies which had a mixed population and were altogether dissimilar to the Australian or North American possessions. He could not help thinking that too expensive a staff had been retained, and although he admitted that much had been done to reduce the non-effective portion of the Army, yet they still found nearly 2,000,000 l. of money paid for non-effective services, while the effective services only required 4,000,000 l. This went far to prove that the complaints repeatedly made last year were well-founded. On the whole, however, placing confidence in the improved

1293
management, he had no hesitation in saying that no department of the public service had undergone so much improvement as the Army. The results which had been stated with respect to education, the attention to schools, supply of books, and other matters, were highly satisfactory, and taking what they had done as an earnest, of their future intentions, he was not disposed to find fault with the Government with respect to trivial matters. He must say, on going over the list, that they had added 11,000 men to the Army at the least possible cost, and he would admit that it was possible to double or treble the number, if necessary, at a comparatively moderate expense. Before he sat down, he was very anxious to refer to what had fallen from an hon. Member with respect to Lord Aberdeen. The hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. F. French) took on himself to say, that those around him concurred entirely in the reference he made to that nobleman. That might sound very well out of doors, but hon. Members would recollect that there was not a single Member on the bench with the hon. Member for Roscommon at the time he was speaking. He considered that there had been a settled attack upon the Government, and that gross injustice had been done to them in reference to their reluctance to go to war. He would, as a friend of peace, repeat his opinion, that their conduct in the matter deserved great praise, and he therefore protested against the speech of the hon. Member for Roscommon being supposed to carry with it the assent of the House of Commons, he being entirely destitute of supporters, though he appealed to those around him, as though many were sitting near. In conclusion, he congratulated the country on having an improved Army and better hopes of prospective improvement than on any former occasion.
LORD LOVAINEsaid, he wished to inquire whether it was not the intention of the right hon. Secretary at War to add at least one subaltern to a company. He would remind the House that we were about to enter into a war under peculiar circumstances, to be carried on in an unhealthy climate and under uncertain auspices, and therefore it was our duty to provide for the effective officering of the troops. In this particular the French excelled us, their men being much better officered than ours. He should be glad to know the intentions of the Government on this matter.
MR. JOHN MACGREGORsaid, he fully agreed with the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) in thinking that the Government had acted wisely, and with extraordinary prudence, from the first moment of the occurrence of those lamentable disputes in the East. He also considered that the Estimates had been framed with a wise regard to economy and efficiency. He hoped that the Government would take measures to assimilate the law of England and Scotland in respect to the billeting of soldiers. As regarded Scotland, the state of the law upon the subject was most vexatious. He was not going to get up a Scotch grievance, but the billeting of troops on private houses was unknown in England, though it was unfortunately the practice in Scotland.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished, before proceeding to make any remarks upon the Estimates, to call the attention of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) to the great inconvenience which arose from the number of Motions that were brought on upon different subjects on Supply nights previously to going into Committee. It was impossible for the House to do its duty, and go through the Estimate with that care and deliberation which their importance deserved, when they were brought on at so late an hour—the previous portion of the evening being occupied with the discussion of four Motrons, at which not forty Members were present. A few days ago two or three of the most important votes in the Naval Estimates were taken at two o'clock in the morning. He did not wish to stop hon. Gentleman from bringing forward their Motions, but he thought they ought not to bring them forward on Supply nights, but on Wednesday, when but little business was brought on. He did not rise for the purpose of offering any opposition to the effective portion of the vote. He would concede all the men and money that were required, though he must say he heard with some regret the observation thrown out by the right hon. Secretary at War, that if was not unlikely he would come before Parliament again during the present Session with fresh Estimates. He had risen for the purpose of suggesting that if ever there was a time when no unnecessary expenditure should take place, it was now. His hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had last year called attention to the increase of pay to the colonels of the Foot Guards, as compared with those

1295
of the other regiments of the line. Now, no man would object to the increased pay of the Duke of Wellington as long as that illustrious soldier lived, but that was no reason why Prince Albert should enjoy such high emolument as Colonel of the Grenadier Guards, in direct violation of the recommendations which a Committee of that House had laid down upon the subject. Now, his Royal Highness Prince Albert, although holding a high rank in the army, was not a soldier, and did not profess to be, and in his (Mr. Williams's) opinion, the giving of that regiment to his Royal Highness was a violation of the principle on which the increase was granted, namely, that it should be conferred on officers as a reward for distinguished services. By the provision of 1833, adopted at the recommendation of the Committee, the pay to the colonel of the Grenadier Guards was fixed at 1,200 l. a year; allowance for clothing the regiment, 8,949 l. 13 s. 6⅝d., making together 10,149 l. 13 s. 6⅝d.; and assuming cost of clothing to be 7,109,l. 11 s., it left an absolute remuneration to the colonel of 3,040 l.2s. 6⅝d. The colonel of the Fusilier Guards was the Duke of Cambridge, a very gallant soldier, no doubt, but he was not a soldier who had rendered distinguished services to the country, that he ought to receive increased pay, when they saw veteran officers who had served all through the Peninsular war and at Waterloo, whose only reward was their medals—some with nine or ten clasps—and their simple good service pension of 150 l. or 200 l. a year. Nobody would object to such a man as Lord Strafford, the colonel of the Coldstream Guards, or to the Marquis of Anglesey, receiving the highest pay and the highest honours, but it was on such men alone both ought to be conferred. The pay of the Duke of Cambridge as colonel of the Fusilier Guards was 1,000 l. a year; allowance for clothing, 5,010 l.; making together 6,010 l.—the net income of the colonel being 2,135 l. The pay of the colonel of the 2nd Regiment of Foot was 500 l. a year; clothing, 2,186 l.; net income, 1,080 l. Men of high rank, whosoever they were, however exalted, ought not in the British army or navy to be permitted to elbow out the veterans who had fought and bled for their country. He looked upon it as a positive degradation that a colonel should be also the tailor of his regiment. The colonels ought to have a fixed allowance, and ought not to be allowed any tailoring
1296
perquisites. It was humiliating to see so exalted a personage as the husband of the Sovereign making a profit of 1,800 l. a year out of the clothes of the soldiers; it was inconsistent with the character of a soldier, and degrading to the position of a prince. Colonels of artillery received a salary of 1,000 l. a year, without tailoring perquisites, and it was found that the clothing of the men of the artillery was obtained 16 per cent cheaper than that of the infantry and cavalry, and that the clothing was of a better description. He was happy to learn that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War bore such honourable testimony to the good conduct of the British army as evidence of the increase in "the good service pay," and the great diminution in the number of punishments. The "good service pay" commenced in 1837, and during the first year the number entitled to it was 1,944 soldiers, who received a sum of 3,600 l. It had been gradually increasing ever since, and in the present year the number of soldiers who received good service pay was 30,900, the amount of money 63,900 l. This was a large sum of money, no doubt, but still he did not grudge it, since it improved the social condition of the soldier, and kept away the lash. He wished to ask the right hon. Secretary at War bow it was that there was a charge of 12,500 l. for encampment expenses? Was that a remnant of the Chobham expenditure? He thought there ought not to be such a charge, since the Government, in reply to a question last year, declared the vote then given was sufficient. He also wanted to know what saving had been effected in the army expenditure in consequence of the number of men on the 1st of January being 12,000 less than the number voted last year?
MR. LAINGsaid, that without wishing to revive the discussion of the Eastern question, it was impossible not to perceive that the present Vote, involving, as it did, the number of men to be added to the army, related to the conduct of that war, and whether it was to be conducted with the energy and decision necessary to bring it to a speedy issue. Conceiving the number of 11,000 to be added to the army, and 260,000 l. in the Estimates, by no means sufficient to effect that purpose, it was with satisfaction he heard the statement by the right hon. Gentleman with reference to a supplemental estimate by which the number might be increased. In making that statement the right hon. Gen-

1297
tleman seemed to entertain some misgiving as to the manner in which it might be received by some parties in that House, but his (Mr. Laing's) object in rising was to show the Government, that many hon. Members, who under ordinary circumstances would scrutinize these votes with rigour, and object, with a view to economy, to any increase of the Estimates, thought, under the present circumstances, that the true economy would be to ask for such supplies as to enable Government to prosecute the war with the greatest vigour. Certain parties in that House were of opinion the war ought never to be undertaken; others thought that in its conduct the operations ought to be confined to our Navy; while a third party, and he thought by far the largest majority, were of opinion that, being once forced into a war, the proper course would be to proceed with all our energy, so as to bring it as soon as possible to a conclusion. The amount of injury which the country had already sustained by the mere apprehension of war was far greater than would have been supposed. That floating mass of property which was contained in the funds, railway securities, and such like, and which was generally estimated at 1,000,000,000 l. sterling, had suffered a depreciation of not less than 10 per cent, being a total loss of 100,000,000 l. He wished, instead of the criticism that had taken place on the past conduct of the Government, some substantial Motion had been proposed, on which the House might have expressed its opinion by a vote. They would thus have shown to foreign countries the unanimity of their feelings on this question; and the Government would have been able with more freedom, and with a more undivided responsibility, to take such steps as they thought necessary for bringing this war to a speedy and a successful termination.
COLONEL BLAIRsaid, that, in reference to the statement made with respect to the pay of colonels of the Guards, the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) could not have chosen a worse time to make such a statement than the present juncture. The colonel of the Fusilier Guards was no drawing-room soldier, but was about to proceed on foreign service. He could not sit by and hear him called a regimental tailor, and he considered it was speaking in a very derogatory manner of a Royal Prince. It was said that his Royal Highness Prince Albert was not a soldier; he (Col. Blair) had an op-
1298
portunity of observing the internal economy of the regiment under the command of his Royal Highness, and no general officer could command it better. He understood the hon. Member to say that the Duke of Cambridge ought not to have a regiment because older officers were unemployed. He could only say, that no blame ought to be imputed to his Royal Highness, for the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War had proved by the Estimates that it was the wish of Government to advance junior officers in the service.
MR. W. WILLIAMSwished to explain that he did not mention the word "tailors" to impute the least disrespect. He merely described the position, and condemned the practice of placing such distinguished men in it.
MR. J. HEATHCOATsaid, he wished to draw the attention of the right hon. Secretary at War to the distinction in the dress worn by the officers and privates, and he would suggest the expediency of not unnecessarily exposing our officers, through this means, to be picked off by the able marksmen of the enemy. He believed the Emperor of Russia had recently made some alteration in the dress of his officers, assimilating them to that of the troops. It was highly inexpedient that the officers should come into the field in blue, and the men in red coats. He thought they would all agree with him that everything should be done to preserve the brave men who were going abroad to lead the British army, and who left so many near and dear to them behind.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War had made reference to a Commission for the purpose of making promotions. He (Sir De L. Evans) thought such Commissions often led to shelving questions, and he could not conceive why the great officers of State should not take on themselves the responsibility of these promotions as heretofore. These Commissions were only devices to remove the responsibility from the shoulders of those who ought to bear it. With regard to the clothing of the troops, he thought it would be very desirable that distinctions of dress, which were a relic of antiquity, should be removed when danger might result from their continuance. The Government were sending troops to the East to serve with the French, who were much more rationally clothed. He wished the Secretary at War would take the

1299
clothing of the troops into his own hands; it was only a question of money. He knew that the Commander-in-Chief had desired very much to make alterations in clothing, and to give frock-coats to officers who wore jackets; but one of the principal causes why nothing had been done was, because it would interfere with the arrangements between the colonels and the contractors, and diminish the profits of the colonels. If the war were to last, was it to save trouble to contractors and to save clothing, that our troops were to present such a contrast to those of our allies?
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Secretary at War to the women and children of the troops who had embarked for the East. Every one who had witnessed the embarkation of troops for foreign service must be aware of the misery that was always presented to view upon the beach. Only four, or, at the most, six women were allowed to go with a company, and, from the facility with which commanding officers of regiments consented to marriages, which was, in reality, only a cruelty to the men, there were always accumulated a great number of women and children who could not accompany a regiment. They had no means of support, except what they derived from the subscriptions of the officers, by means of which they were sent to their different localities, where they usually fell upon the poor rates. Sometimes the women, for want of the means of subsistence, contracted vicious habits, and the children were almost invariably deprived of all means of education. This subject ought to engage the attention of Parliament, for the army would never be properly organised, and the men would never go out to fight with proper feelings, so long as they knew that their wives and children were thrown upon the world for charity during their absence. The question of the staff was also deserving the attention of the Secretary at War. Of all the armies of Europe ours had the worst staff in the field, and the reason was, because our officers bad so little experience of staff duties. One of the greatest uses of the camp at Chobham was to teach our officers the nature of staff duties. In the French army, before an officer could serve upon the état major, he must serve by turns in the cavalry, infantry, and artillery, and then, having served in each arm of the service, and gained a knowledge of its peculiarities, he was appointed to the état major. But,
1300
except about fourteen officers who went to study at Sandhurst, but who were not appointed to staff duties any the more because they went there, we had no school of staff officers. There would be a great difficulty in any one Board at present in existence supplying clothing for the whole of the army. The general officers in command of regiments, if they were sufficiently paid, would be satisfied to give up the privilege of clothing their regiments.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he wished to state, in reply to the noble Lord (Lord Lovaine), that the question of appointing additional subaltern officers must stand over for consideration and decision. The attention of the Government had been drawn to the necessity of altering the dress of the officers, so that the officers and men might fight in coats of the same colour, and last year, when the Guards were at Chobham, the officers received instructions to be dressed in a similar manner to the men. With respect to the complaint of the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams), as to the appointments to the household regiments, he had on a previous occasion stated that the Committee had reported that the three household regiments of cavalry should be reserved for veteran officers of distinction; but they did not recommend that such an arrangement should be insisted on with respect to the Foot Guards, the appointments to which rested with the Sovereign for the members of her family. In the case of the household cavalry regiments the recommendation of the Committee had been scrupulously followed. But with respect to the household infantry, Lord Strafford had been appointed to one of them, in consideration of his long and brilliant services. With respect to the suggestion for an equalisation of the allowances, he must observe that the three regiments did not stand on the same footing as to numerical force; and he thought the vested interests involved in the question should be respected. He thought it was due to His Royal Highness Prince Albert, to observe that he (Mr. Sidney Herbert) had occasion to make a proposal to him with respect to his regiment. It had been a matter of complaint in that House for a long time that there were a great number of supernumerary officers in the Guards, and he (Mr. Sidney Herbert) made a proposal with respect to those supernumerary officers which involved a sacrifice on the part of the colonels of the

1301
Guards of their patronage. That proposal he submitted to His Royal Highness, who at once consented to relinquish his patronage. He thought it only due to His Royal Highness to state that circumstance.
SIR JOHN FITZGERALDsaid, he wished that it could be referred to a commission to inquire, among other matters, into the propriety of doing away with the rank of colonel, which was only a useless rank, and prevented an officer from arriving at the rank of general when his health and strength allowed him to serve with the greatest efficiency. He was nine years a colonel without employment, and that time was altogether lost to him. He was then made major-general. Now, would it not be much better that an officer should be promoted at once from the grade of a lieutenant-colonel to that of a major-general? They would thus have general officers in the enjoyment of all their energies. He fully agreed with those hon. Members who thought that the clothing of the army was not a proper subject of emolument to the colonels. Improvements were from time to time required in the clothing of the army, which the authorities now hesitated to make. It would be much better if it were left to the Commander-in-Chief to alter the clothing, without having to meet the views of the general officers who had regiments. He very much desired to see the cavalry regiments completed to 800 men, for it was much better to have one regiment of 800 men acting together than to have that number made up of detachments from other regiments.
VISCOUNT GODERICHsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the mode of education now adopted with respect to the private soldier, under which he was required to attend school only during the time when he was undergoing the preliminary drill, the consequence being, of necessity almost, that he acquired a dislike for the instruction he received there. He suggested that the soldier should not be required to attend school until after he had undergone that preliminary drill, and then that he should do little or nothing else for three or four months, an arrangement which he (Lord Goderich) thought would tend to make him appreciate the education the more at the time it was imparted, and to use it afterwards as a means of relieving the tedium of garrison duty during his subsequent service.
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, in order to guard against his vote in support of the
1302
Estimates being misconstrued, he felt it necessary to remark at that point of the discussion that, had we adopted a firm and manly tone at a much earlier period of the negotiations on the Eastern question, the same result would have happened which followed the negotiations in 1851, when our remonstrances were backed by a fleet, and the Emperor of Russia withdrew his claims.
Vote agreed to.
(2.) 3,923,288 l., Charge of Land Forces.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to move that the emoluments of the colonels of the Grenadier Foot Guards be reduced by 2,000 l., and those of the colonels of the Fusileer Guards by 1,000 l.
COLONEL LINDSAYsaid, the effect of the reduction proposed by the hon. Member for Lambeth would be that his Royal Highness Prince Albert, who had nearly 3,000 men under his command, would have to conduct his regiment for the same sum that would be allowed to a colonel of a regiment of the line for a single battalion.
MR. W. WILLIAMS, in reply, said, that the colonel of a regiment, whether his regiment consisted of one, two, or three battalions, performed no duty; that his office was, in fact, a sinecure, and considered as the reward for distinguished services.
Amendment negatived.
Vote agreed to, as were also,

(3.) 151,382 l., General Staff Officers.

(4.) 105,093 l., Public Departments.

(5.) 17,401 l., Royal Military College.

COLONEL NORTHsaid, he must complain of the change which had been effected of late years in the rules of this institution, by which the object of its founder was entirely defeated. The college was established by the late Duke of York for the education of the orphans of officers, but now these orphans were compelled to pay the sum of 40 l. per annum before they could participate in the advantages of the institution. It must be obvious, when the widow of an ensign received a pension of only 36 l. a year, and the widow of a lieutenant only 40 l. a year, that the college was now virtually closed to that class of cadets for whose advantage the institution was specially designed by the Duke of York. He did not wish to throw the slightest blame upon the present Secretary at War, for the existing regulations were in force when that right hon. Gentleman succeeded to office. He (Colonel North) hoped, however, some mea-

1303
sures would be adopted for enabling that class of young men for whose benefit the establishment was originally intended to receive education without any expense to their friends. A large surplus, of variable amount, bad lately been derived from the college, but he was confident that, even if the arrangement he suggested caused any deficiency in the funds of the institution, such deficiency would be cheerfully supplied by that House.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that while he felt the utmost respect for the opinions of the hon. and gallant Officer, and for the feelings which dictated his suggestion, he entertained great doubt as to the propriety of providing an eleemosynary education for such a profession as the Army. He had frequent applications from the widows of officers on this subject, but he did not think a greater disservice could be done to persons in such a position than by inducing them to bring up their sons to so expensive a profession as the Army. He considered that if a person who had no private income entered the Army, he embraced a profession which was not likely to conduce to his comfort in life.
COLONEL NORTHcould only say, that many of the cadets of the orphan class who were at Sandhurst at the same time with himself were at this moment among the most respectable officers in the service. He only regretted that the service should be so expensive that the orphans of our gallant soldiers were precluded from entering it.
MR. HUMEsaid that this was, he believed, the only country where the military service was so expensive that the general community were unable to enter it with a fair chance. He thought that the Government ought to adopt means to reduce the extravagance in dress and other matters which rendered the military service so expensive. He considered that the pay of officers of the Army ought to be sufficient to maintain them, and that was the principle adopted in every other country in the world. The present state of things had arisen because the Army had heretofore been a service for men of fortune. Young men had been put into the Army who never meant to derive their livelihood from the service. It suited them very well during their younger years, and in time of peace; but when war occurred, they sold out and left the service. [Cries of "No, no!"] Well, some of them did. ["No, no!"] He hoped those hon. Gentlemen who said
1304
"No," would not differ from him on this point—that the Army was made a convenience, and that the men who actually performed the duties of professional soldiers were deprived of their fair share of emoluments and rank.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he would recommend the Government to economise the expenses of the establishment at Sandhurst, which might be done without interfering with the efficiency of the institution, as by this means funds might be provided for educating the sons of such subaltern officers as died in the service of the country and left no provision for their families. There was a governor and lieutenant-governor, who were both general officers, keeping their four or five horses, at the college, and there were chaplains, sergeants, schoolmasters, riding masters, surgeons, assistant-surgeons, and other officials, all to look after about 150 boys. In fact there were about as many officers as there were boys in the institution.
MR. OTWAYsaid, that the Sandhurst College was not originally intended for civilians, but was designed for the education of the sons of officers. He considered it very desirable that an ensign's wife should have the satisfaction of knowing that, in case her husband died in battle, her son would be educated at the public expense. Some twelve or fifteen years ago, when he was at Sandhurst, the number of cadets of the orphan class was from thirty to forty, while it was stated that there were now only ten or twelve of that class in the college; he thought it was most desirable that some means should be adopted for extending the advantages of the institution to the orphans of officers.
MR. HUMEsaid, he thought that the expenses of the establishment might be very considerably reduced. He found that the governor received 1,000 l. a year, the lieutenant-governor 383 l., and a major-superintendent 300 l., for the management of a few boys.
MR. M. CHAMBERSsaid, he had had the happiness of being educated at Sandhurst, and he knew many distinguished officers who had been educated as orphans at that institution. He would suggest to the right hon. Secretary at War, however, that 40 l. a year was a larger sum than the orphans of some officers were able to pay. He had been sorry to hear the Secretary at War express an opinion that Gentlemen in that position ought not to enter Her Majesty's Army. He (Mr. Chambers)

1305
thought, on the contrary, that they were the very persons who ought to have the opportunity of entering the Army. He conceived that no class of young men were more entitled to the consideration of the State than those whose fathers had died in its service, and who were left in a position which precluded them from paying a large sum of money for their education. Sandhurst College was founded by the late Duke of York, who thought it the duty of the country to provide for the education of the orphan children of officers, and who proposed that some orphans should be educated entirely at the public expense, while others should pay a small sum for their education. He (Mr. Chambers) considered that, as the country was now on the point of war, the present was a very proper time for bringing this subject under the notice of the Committee, because it would be an inducement to persons to serve the country well and faithfully if they knew that, should they perish in the public service, the State would provide for the education of their children, who would hereafter have an opportunity of entering that service in which their fathers had gained distinguished fame. The Secretary at War had stated, however, that he did not think the army was a service which it was desirable for the orphans of officers to enter. He knew the right hon. Gentleman meant that the Army was too expensive a service for young men who had no private income. That was deeply to be regretted; but he (Mr. Chambers) was old enough to recollect the late war, and he knew many officers who had obtained their commissions in consequence of passing an examination at the Military College at Sandhurst, and he knew also that some of those officers had paid 10 l. or 20 l. a year, according to the rank of their fathers, while others had paid nothing, but that they had worked their own way to rank and distinction. He would suggest that, as the college was now a profitable establishment, the amounts paid by the cadets should be reduced, and regulated according to the military rank held by their fathers.
Vote agreed to.
The two following Votes were also agreed to:—

(6.) 20,756 l., for Royal Military Asylum, &c.

(7.) 88,000 l., for Volunteer Corps.

(8.) 20,500 l., Rewards for Distinguished Services.

MR. HUMEsaid that, in the Committee
1306
which had sat upstairs, the abolition of all sinecures in connection with garrison appointments had been recommended. The garrison of the Tower of London was the only one which had not been the subject of inquiry; but it was understood that, on the death of the Duke of Wellington, a complete change would take place. He wished to know why the recommendation of the Committee had not been carried out in that case?
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that when he came into office he found Lord Combermere filling the position in the Tower which had been occupied by the Duke of Wellington. Since then a warrant had been signed for reducing the Tower establishment for the future, and as the places became vacant the money saved would be divided as rewards for distinguished services.
Vote agreed to.
(9.) 46,000 l., Pay of General Officers.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to call attention to the immense number of general officers as compared with the number of regiments. He found from the last Army List that there were 324 general officers to 128 regiments, so that there were more than two generals and a-half to each regiment in the services.
COLONEL LINDSAYsaid, the hon. Member for Lambeth, in looking over the Army List, had taken all the general officers mentioned there, but there were many whose names were in italics, who were retired officers, and received no army pay. The number of general officers would not be more than 243 or 244, which did not, however, include those belonging to the ordnance, artillery, engineers, and marines.
MR. HUMEsaid, the Government ought to maintain no more officers than were required for the service. The recommendations of the Committee on this point had led to no result whatever. While the Duke of Wellington was alive every alteration was met with the cry of "Oh, you must put it off, the Duke is against you;" but he recommended the Government now to look to the advice of the Committee, and bring down the officers to the number required.
Vote agreed to.
(10.) 49,600 l., Full Pay for Retired Officers.
COLONEL LINDSAYsaid, he would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should remove the grievance which was

1307
complained of by officers retiring on full pay, namely, that their promotion ceased as soon as they had retired. As the number of these officers was but small, and as the average number of years' service of the retired lieutenant-colonels was about thirty-eight, and of majors thirty-six, it was clear that much addition to the higher ranks could not be made by allowing promotion to go on. He hoped this subject would receive the attention of the Commission to which the right hon. Gentleman had alluded.
Vote agreed to; As was also

(11) 356,000 l., Half-pay and Military Allowances.

(12.) 33,671 l., Foreign Half-pay.

MR. HUMEsaid, he could not avoid expressing a fear that great abuses existed in this item. One case he had heard of, in which an officer in receipt of a pension signed thirteen or fourteen half-yearly receipts, which his widow regularly handed in after his death and received the money. Personal appearance ought, he thought, to be necessary for receipt of a pension.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that great care was taken to prevent imposition, and of late years personal appearance had been insisted on.
Vote agreed to; as were also the two following Votes:—

(13.) 115,889 l., Widows' Pensions.

(14) 75,500 l., Compassionate List.

(15.) 30,694 l., In-Pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.

MR. I. BUTTsaid, he begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman what steps had been taken in consequence of the Address to Her Majesty last Session relating to Kilmainham Hospital?
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid that, in consequence of that Vote, he had thought it his duty to act upon the decision of the House, and a Royal warrant in reference to Kilmainham was being prepared. He had made several alterations in the staff there, the effect of which was, in many instances, a reduction of expense, and, in all, an increase of efficiency. The number of pensioners admitted this year had been somewhat larger than last year, and the number would be permanently kept up to 140.
MR. I. BUTTsaid, this management did not comply with the spirit of the Address of last Session. In 1845 the number of pensioners was fixed by Royal warrant at 200, and the discussion last Session turned upon the point whether the number
1308
was to remain at that fixed upon by that warrant. Now, the right hon. Gentleman, however, had reduced the number from 200 to 140. The Vote of last year had carried with it a very beneficial influence in Ireland, as showing that the Government were not determined to cut down institutions of benevolence merely because they were Irish, but he must say that a great deal of that influence would be done away with when the reduction proposed by the right hon. Gentleman came to be made known, particularly when the Estimate for Chelsea Hospital was increased at the very moment when that for Kilmainham was diminished.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he considered the decision of the Secretary of War was most unsatisfactory, and would have an ill effect on the recruiting in Ireland. As an income tax had been placed upon Irishmen, he thought they had at least a right to have their establishments kept up.
MR. HUMEsaid, he would like to see both Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals abolished, and he believed that the pensioners would prefer having the liberty to live where they pleased. Kilmainham kept up a large staff at a most expensive rate.
MR. VANCEsaid, he had come to a very different conclusion. There were in Kilmainham 140 inmates, and there was a department for out-pensioners, who had their arms and accoutrements there. There was full accommodation for 250 pensioners in the establishment. He believed the hospital had a very advantageous influence in Ireland in favour of the service, and the proportion of in-door pensioners was increasing, having been only kept down by the apprehension of being turned adrift.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that it was stated that there were 144 pensioners in the establishment, but there were only ninety-eight old soldiers, and there were forty-six persons to look after them. There was a matron and nine nurses, an infirmary sergeant, two cooks, two assistant-cooks, two barbers, two lodge-keepers, and so on. It was all very well for Gentlemen from Ireland to wish to keep up an establishment of such importance for ninety-eight old men, when there were 63,000 out-pensioners, of whom at least 25,000 were Irishmen, living more comfortably with their families.
MR. P, O'BRIENsaid, that the staff of officers to which the hon. Member for Lambeth had alluded was composed of old sol-

1309
diers and officers who had served, and deserved well of, their country. There was a great disposition to enter this hospital on the part of men who, having served twenty or twenty-five years abroad, had lost sight of their family connections, and were therefore glad to go where they might meet with their old comrades, who were now their only friends. He hoped that they would not, just on the eve of a war, by any utilitarian proceedings in that House, repress the strong feeling which always animated Irishmen to come forward in defence of their country.
MR. HUMEsaid, he would point out that all the officers at Kilmainham could not have served their country, because their occupations showed that they had not been soldiers; besides, some of them—the nurses, for example—were women.
MR. I. BUTTsaid, that there were few persons in the hospital who had not served their country well. The very nurses were widows of old soldiers who had been killed in the service. But the question was not at present as to the maintenance of the hospital. That question had been decided by that House last Session, and the decision would, doubtless, be confirmed if the question were raised again. Those who complained that there was a large staff and a small number of pensioners, made the very complaint which he did. At an expense of 500 l. the hospital could be made capable of receiving twice the present number of pensioners, and that, would tend to keep up the national spirit in Ireland [Mr. W. WILLIAMS: Hear, hear!] Oh, no doubt the hon. Member for Lambeth was a better judge of those matters than the gallant commander of the forces in Ireland, or the Marquess of Anglesey. But the opinion of the people of Ireland was strongly in favour of keeping up this ancient establishment on a proper scale.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, among the differences on both sides of the House, the hon. Members for Lambeth and Youghal were agreed on one point, and on that one point they were both wrong. The number was not 144, but 140; and the staff, so far from remaining the same as it was, had been gradually diminished, and was still in the process of reduction, until it was more suited to the number of the pensioners. The staff was admitted on the very same principle as the pensioners. On visiting Kilmainham last year, he found 127 or 130 men in the hospital; he had altered it to 140, but that was not reduction. It was indeed a reduction from the number
1310
on the warrant which was made some six years ago. He had made that alteration after full consultation with the most likely authorities on the spot, and he was not disposed to reconsider it.
Vote agreed to, as were also the two following votes:—

(16.) 1,215,712 l., Out-Pensioners.

(17.) 38,000 l., Superannuation Allowances.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
SIR JAMES GRAHAM: Sir, I shall now proceed, if the Committee pleases, with the Navy Estimates, and shall state very shortly what is the result of our calculations for the year. On a former evening the Committee consented to vote the first three items, which are the largest in point of amount. The increase in the Navy Estimates generally may be stated at 1,200,000 l., the increase upon the three first votes which have been already passed being 711,000 l. It will be satisfactory to the Committee to hear that the entire sum voted for the Navy Estimates this year is by no means the largest sum which has been voted within the last ten years. I think in the year 1848–49, the entire sum voted for the Navy Estimates amounted to nearly 8,000,000 l.; this year it is under 7,500,000 l. At the same time, you will bear in mind that the number of men for whom provision is made in the votes which have been already passed amounts to 58,500, whereas in 1848–49, when a larger sum of money was voted than in the resent year, the number of men was only 42,500, so that, this year, a less sum of money was required, and a larger number of men is provided for. The increase in the remaining votes is under 500,000 l. Last year the Committee somewhat objected to the diminution effected in the scientific branch of the service, namely, the fifth vote, and, notwithstanding the large expenditure which it will be necessary to make with reference to the anticipation of warlike operations, I thought I should best consult the wishes of the Committee by not continuing the reduction upon the scientific branch, and this year the Committee will observe there is a very considerable increase made in the amount of the vote. I will now state the particular services in which that increase arises. In the first place, as I have already announced, in answer to a question put to me the other night by an hon. Friend of mine with reference to meteorological observations, we propose a vote of 1,000 l. in con-

1311
sequence of the conference which took place at Brussels. Observations have likewise been directed to be made and recorded daily in Her Majesty's ships of war; and, in concert with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, I have arranged for the taking of similar observations in the mercantile marine. These records will be carefully kept, the statistical information will be properly digested, and I have no doubt the advantage to science will be considerable. In the second place, my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has thought it necessary to send an expedition to Central Africa for the purpose of making a survey of the river Tchadda, with the view of opening up the interior of that vast continent to our commerce, and the cost of that expedition will be 5,000 l. It is also necessary to provide for sending a supply of provisions to the Arctic regions, both to Behring's Straits and the extremity of Wellington Sound. The Committee will probably be aware of the announcement which the Admiralty has thought it necessary to make, that, considering the little prospect there now is of the return of Sir John Franklyn and his gallant comrades, it is not intended, after the present year, to send any further expeditions upon that hopeless search; but for the present it will be necessary to make provision for the ships already employed in that distant and hazardous service. The next vote to which I will refer shows an increase of 200,000 l. as compared with the estimates of last year. That increase is owing to the high price of provisions, and to the increased duties to be performed in the dockyards within the shortest possible time. The artificers employed in those establishments are now working extra hours, and their pay has consequently to be increased, in addition to the expense attending the employment of a larger number of additional labourers. The next increase is upon the naval stores; it amounts to 119,721 l., and arises chiefly from the high price paid for articles principally consumed in the dockyards, such as coal and other commodities, the consumption of which is very large. The next item to which I shall refer is an increase of 115,000 l. upon new works. This increase principally arises from the expenditure at Keyham, in the immediate neighbourhood of the arsenal at Devonport, where a considerable sum will require to be expended in the present year. It is proposed to give a sum of 60,000 l. to complete the two docks and basin; 45,000 l.
1312
will be requisite for the commencement of the works for the repair of steamships of war, and 10,000 l. will be expended upon the tunnel between Devonport Dockyard and Keyham. The only remaining sum to which I shall allude is Vote 17, in which the increase is 72,000 l., which is connected with the Army and Ordnance, and which is the sum taken for the conveyance of troops within the year. I may state to the Committee that, upon the whole, my confident expectation is, that the entire sum which I now propose to be voted will cover the expenses of the present amount of the forces, with the exception, perhaps, of two particulars. I am not quite sure that another vote may not be necessary, under the head of No. 2—for provisions—the price of which keeps perpetually rising. I am inclined to think, also, with respect to the expenditure under Vote 17, for the conveyance of troops, that a larger sum will be necessary at a subsequent period of the Session. Now, Sir, I know not that it is necessary for me, before going into the discussion of the votes separately, to address any further observations to the Committee. I certainly do not think it expedient to make any vainglorious boast in regard to the state of preparation in which we now find ourselves; but, in justice to my predecessors, you must allow me to state that I found the affairs of the department in admirable order, all the branches in good working condition, and all the servants zealous and efficient. One great change is in progress—I mean the change caused by the application of screw power as an auxiliary to sailing power. I think it just to my predecessors to state, that the first application of this new power took place under the administration of Lord Haddington, whose secretary I see opposite. This great auxiliary principle was applied to ships of war in the face of great opposition. The principle was carried out under the authority of the Admiralty, which proceeded slowly and prudently as experiments led the way; but the officer, who is now the Surveyor of the Navy, deserves the greatest credit for the efforts he made and the timely advice which he gave, for, being confident of the excellence of the principle, he persevered till he succeeded in overcoming every opposition. My right hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring) is also deserving of the thanks of the country for the efforts he made while at the head of the Admiralty, to increase the efficiency of our naval forces; and I should be guilty of great injustice to the

1313
administration of the Duke of Northumberland, if I did not say that to his Grace, acting upon the advice of Sir Baldwin Walker, we owe the application of the screw principle to a large number of ships of war. Whatever may be said, therefore, of the state of preparation in which our naval forces now are, the praise is to be distributed among my predecessors, who have introduced great and decided improvements into all the branches of that department of the public service. The result is, Sir, that without over-confidence I may assure the Committee, that I believe the British Navy will be found more efficient than ever it was before, and ready and prepared to maintain the honour and independence of the country. I now beg to move a vote of 138,467 l. for the Admiralty Office.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, he thought there was no one in the nation who would be more worthy to be a permanent First Lord of the Admiralty than the right hon. Gentleman who now filled the office; but it would be well if they could divest the office of all Parliamentary influence, and apply to it the principle which was laid down in the paragraph used with respect to the dockyards—that merit, and merit only, should be the ground for advancement. He was glad to find that this rule was about to be introduced into the Civil Service, and he hoped the same alteration would soon be made with regard to the Army and Navy, for then the best talent in each of those professions would be brought forward certainly in a greater degree than it had been for the last thirty or forty years. They had 7,000 officers of all descriptions belonging to the Navy, there was about 250 or 260 admirals, and about 400 post-captains. There was no way, in his opinion, to bring the Navy into an efficient state, even in war time, but by at least reducing their active list one-half. In consequence of having so large a list, the officers were four or five years on shore for every one they were at sea; and some of the admirals, when they hoisted their flags, had been a quarter of a century on shore, and when that is the case, however able they may be, they get out of order and rusty. There were 3,000 officers on the retired list, and 1,690 admirals, captains, and lieutenants, of whom a great many would never go afloat again; and the navy list was kept crowded without any good to it whatever. He would glance at an ar-
1314
rangement that was made some years ago, but in which it would be now necessary to make some alteration. It was now required that every post-captain should serve a certain number of years after he was posted, or otherwise, when he came to the head of the list, he would be put on the retired list, and would not be employed in active service. Now he thought that the whole of an officer's service should be taken into consideration. Some of those who were set aside had served much longer than the required time as midshipmen, two or three times the required period as lieutenants, and three or four times the period as commanders; but because they had not served six years as post-captains, they were not considered fit to be made admirals. Such men might have been twenty years afloat, when those who were made admirals because they had served the six years might not have been more than thirteen or fourteen years afloat. With regard to the reduction of the active list, he would remind the Committee that the French navy had only two admirals, five or six vice-admirals, and eight or ten rear-admirals, all of whom must have seen service, and must be really good officers. In the American navy there was not a single admiral, and there were very few commodores. He wished to see the Navy more efficient than it had hitherto been; but no systematic improvements could be effected when so many changes took place in the Board of Admiralty. There had been seven First Lords since 1840. He would call the attention of the Committee to another important point. They had voted that night something more than 5l. per man for raising 18,900 soldiers, and it was not fair or equitable not to offer an equal bounty to seamen as they did to the soldiers, and to the marines, who served with the seamen. They wanted 7,000 men for the Navy, and they should offer 5l. per head to come to them. The nature of the sailors was this—they were generally in want of cash, and if they told them there was ready money for them, which would enable them to put on a new suit of clothes, they were likely to accept of it. He must protest against their entering more landsmen than were necessary, for it was very seldom that a grown man could ever be made a good seaman, and they were liable to all sorts of accidents on board ship. He hoped, also, that the landsmen who were entered would not be required to be five feet six inches in height, as by taking a lower standard, they would

1315
obtain men who did not come up to the military height, besides which it was well known that a tall man on board ship always found his head in his way. They were told they were on the verge of a war, and he dare say they were. He trusted and believed the Navy would do their duty. They never had such powerful ships, and he only hoped they would have such good crews as they had during the last war. It should be, however, observed, that the best crews did not shake into their places for some months, and they could not expect that ships would all at once be as effective as if they had been in commission for six or eight months. It required time to enable the officers to judge of them, and to put them in their places. Some remarks had been made, reflecting on the conduct of the Ambassador at Constantinople (he would leave him to take care of himself), and also on the conduct of the Admirals in command of the Black Sea fleet. Comments had been made as to why they went here and there; but they should recollect the dangers that must occur in an unknown sea of narrow dimensions, where the fleets of two nations were cruising together; and the best thing to do during the dark nights and bad weather was to do what had been done—to keep up a chain of steamers between themselves and Sebastopol, let the Russians go to sea, and then get between them and Sebastopol and stop them. Some of the Gentlemen who commented upon those matters had never seen a gale of wind. With respect to the Baltic, he had served there three years, and had been at the blockade of Cronstadt. At that time they were at war with Denmark, Sweden, and Russia. The enemy managed to get in, and all they could do was to blockade them. Whether their screws would do more he could not say, but at all events they kept the enemy in, and they never attempted to get out. He hoped for more decided results, however, both in the Black Sea and in the Baltic.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he wished to address the Committee in reference to the affair at Sinope.
The CHAIRMANsaid, that it would be irregular to submit a Motion of that subject on the question of a Vote for the expenses of the Admiralty Office.
Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, that in that case he would bring the subject forward on the Motion for going into Committee on a future occasion. His object in wishing to discuss that subject now was
1316
that he wished to avoid a general discussion of their Eastern policy.
MR. HUMEsaid, this was a question of great importance, because it was just possible that there might be a difficulty for the future in obtaining seamen. Good seamen were scarce, and he hoped Government would not hesitate, if it should be found necessary, to increase the pay of the sailor, who was required for the service of his country. Whilst every class of labourers and artisans were receiving an advance in their wages, it was only right the Navy should participate in the rise; and he trusted there would be some attention paid to this point by the department whose especial duty it should be to look after it. True, a great improvement had taken place in the quantity and quality of the accommodation provided for men who entered the Navy, and he had no doubt that if the same spirit of liberality were extended to the pay, but little difficulty would be found in securing an ample and efficient number of volunteers for the future requirements of the Navy.
SIR JAMES GRAHAMsaid, that some short time back the House had consented to a considerable increase in the pay of the sailor, and also that the Board of Amiralty had reconsidered the question of secondary punishments, and the result had been that they had thought it desirable to mitigate their severity, and he was glad to be able to state that crime was on the decrease. The result of the endeavour to raise additional seamen had been most satisfactory. Notwithstanding the general rise in seamen's wages, and the emigration from all parts of the United Kingdom, the royal service had become so popular that since November, 1852, 7,000 additional seamen and 1,800 marines had been entered, showing that there was no necessity at the present time for any bounty. The hon. and gallant Member (Captain Scobell) was in error in supposing a bounty of 5l. would only involve the sum of 85,000 l. for the 7,000 fresh volunteers. By a just law the Admiralty would be bound to give the same bounty to the seamen already entered, and that would amount to at least 200,000 l. The spirit of the seafaring population was above all praise, and, as a proof of the alacrity with which the men came forward, he was happy to say they had in the month of February entered no less than 900 men by voluntary enlistment alone, and volunteers were still coming in as quickly as they could desire.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid he fully

1317
agreed with the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) that there was no fear of any want of seamen, neither did there appear any necessity for giving a bounty to induce seamen to enter. They had waited to see if the Emperor of Russia was really in earnest, and now that they saw a good chance of active service, they had come forward. He was glad that the experiment of calling the coast guard men into service had been successful, and he thought that that circumstance might lead to defects being pointed out which ought not to exist. It was intended when the coastguard service was established that it should consist of sailors who received good characters from ships just paid off; but he feared that there were at present men in that force who did not even know how to sling their hammocks. He had the strongest hope, and, indeed, he firmly believed, that in the impending struggle the ships and seamen of this country would do their duty, for there was no period in the former history of the country at which its Navy was in such an efficient condition. With regard to the injustice of placing post-captains who had not been six years at sea, when they came to the head of their list, on what was called the reserved list, and not upon the list for active service as admirals, the subject had been fully discussed in the other House of Parliament, though he had not observed it stated that sometimes the captains got better situations, and did not apply for any appointment to ships in commission. It was a great advantage to the service that such strenuous attempts had been made to abolish corporal punishment, and, indeed, at the present day, any officer whose books showed that a very great amount of punishment had been inflicted on board his ship would suffer in his future career. The First Lord of the Admiralty had given them reason to believe all the ships would be required to perform services in the Baltic and Black Sea, but he hoped some attention would be paid to the suppression of the slave trade, which could only be done effectually by a blockade of the coast of Cuba. He hoped the Admiralty had taken such precautions as to leave a sufficient number of ships for the purpose, for be observed the present captain general of Cuba was determined to prevent the importation of slaves—
LORD JOHN MANNERSrose to order. The Chairman had prevented the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby)
1318
discussing the affair at Sinope. Surely the slave trade of Cuba was quite as irregular.
The CHAIRMANsaid, the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton was connecting it with the administration of the Admiralty.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he considered the interruption of the noble Lord very unnecessary, and really thought the hon. Baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) might have discussed the dreadful catastrophe at Sinope, as the Admiralty had sent a fleet to the neighbourhood, without appealing to the Chairman at all on the matter. Perhaps some discussion of that subject would have been of advantage in preventing the recurrence of so great a calamity. It was satisfactory to find that the screw propeller was now to be applied to all the vessels of the Royal Navy. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) would not forget the subject of the freight-money receivable by officers in the Navy. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that valuable article, marine glue, so useful in the construction of the masts of line-of-battle ships and of the larger class of vessels generally, was still made use of in the Navy? This glue also enabled them to get rid of the process of caulking, and the use of pitch on board of our vessels, which, in tropical climates, was a very offensive nuisance.
SIR JAMES GRAHAMsaid, he would begin first with the glue. He had the greatest pleasure in telling the hon. and gallant Member that, so far from the use of that article being discontinued in the Navy, it still proved a very efficacious and excellent material, which was used very largely, and effected a great saving to the public. The practice with regard to freight-money, to which the hon. and gallant Member referred, had been superseded in a great degree by the course of events; and he was not aware that any instance of it had occurred for a considerable period. There was another observation of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, which he could not allow to pass unnoticed. It would be very undesirable that it should be supposed in Africa and Cuba that, on account of the naval exertions this country was called on to make, we had the least intention of relaxing our efforts in suppressing the slave trade. He (Sir J. Graham) had great pleasure in informing the Committee that he had not withdrawn from the African station a single ship, and he had no intention to do so. The flagship would be replaced by a most efficient screw steamer; and the

1319
directions of the Admiral were to keep a close watch, the earnest resolution of the Government being, that the efforts and vigilance of the squadron in suppressing the slave trade should not undergo any diminution.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he gave the right hon. Baronet credit for not having increased the number of clerks in the dockyards, notwithstanding the great increase of labour which had taken place in those yards, but he could not help calling the attention of the Committee to the fact that there were no less than 243 clerks employed in the Admiralty, and sixty-seven messengers, being one messenger for every four clerks. That was monstrous.
LORD DUDLEY STUARTsaid, he must express his regret that the Chairman had decided against hearing the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) on the subject of Sinope. He thought the hon. Baronet was in order in referring to that disastrous affair, especially as they were about to vote money to pay the salaries of the servants of the Board of Admiralty; but he bowed to the decision of the Chair. He did not think there would have been any objection to such a discussion after the patriotic speech of the noble Lord, which was worthy of a Minister of that great country, and of the leader of that House—not shrinking from stigmatising the Emperor of Russia in terms that were deserved—and followed as he was, in the same spirit, by his noble Friend the Secretary for the Home Department. After hearing these speeches with reference to the prosecution of the war, in a manly, vigorous style, worthy of the country, he was willing to give the Government his most earnest, cheerful, and decided support. While he was on his legs, he would like to put it to the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it would not be desirable, in order to make the naval service more popular, to abolish the practice of impressment.
MR. LAINGsaid, he wished to know from the right hon. Baronet whether there was any truth in he rumour that our sailors were to be armed with Colt's revolvers? Having seen it stated that the Russian sailors on board the fleet in the Black Sea were armed with these weapons, he believed it would be very satisfactory to the country to feel that our sailors were no less efficiently equipped.
SIR JAMES GRAHAMsaid, that there was no intention on the part of the Ad-
1320
miralty to supply Her Majesty's ships with Colt's revolvers, neither did he think that British sailors would require them.
Vote agreed to.
House resumed.

COLONIAL CLERGY DISABILITIES BILL.
THE SOLICITOR GENERAL, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to relieve the colonial clergy from certain disabilities, said, he should confine himself at that late hour to a very brief statement of the object of the measure, of the way in which it was proposed to attain it, and of the reasons which made it necessary that some such measure should be passed. There was at present a great deal of doubt as to the legality of the colonial clergy meeting together for the purpose of agreeing, either among themselves or in conjunction with the lay members of the Church, upon any regulations or arrangements which might be necessary for the conduct of their ecclesiastical affairs. Hon. Members who were present at the discussion of the questions that took place in the preceding Parliament would remember that disability arose—or was supposed, and he thought justly, to arise—out of a Statute passed in the reign of King Henry VIII., and which prohibited the clergy from meeting together for the purpose of making any order, canon, or constitution, without being summoned for that purpose by the King. That Statute had become part of the supremacy of the Crown, and as the supremacy was held to extend over the whole country as well as to any foreign possession, there was very good reason, he thought, for the apprehension that the colonial clergy—carrying with them, as they did, the obligation of obedience to that Statute—would be acting in violation of the law if they attempted any meeting, either by themselves or jointly with the laity, for the purpose of making any ecclesiastical regulation or arrangement. The effect of this disability was to press very hardly on the clergy, and to place the Church of England in the Colonies in a position very far inferior to the freedom possessed by religious bodies of every other denomination. It became abundantly necessary, therefore, that some step should be taken, not for making any Church establishment in the Colonies, but for giving to the Church of England there the same freedom which was enjoyed by other communions. It was unfair to place the clergy in a position of inferiority to other religious bodies in countries where

1321
they had not the same tribunals to appeal to which were available to their brethren in this country; and it was necessary that the disability should be removed, because in the present state of things it was impossible to have the mutual relations between the clergy and their bishops defined and carried out. The result was, that the bishop exercised despotic power; and he might deprive a clergyman of his licence, and, with his licence, of the stipend which he received from the Colonial Legislature—taking away from him his whole ecclesiastical and clerical status, and, in fact, depriving him altogether of his privileges, without his having any opportunity of appeal. The bishops were reluctant to exercise this power; the clergy felt themselves oppressed by the existence of a power which was not regulated by a legal check; and it had been very generally felt, on a variety of occasions, that some legislation on this particular subject was necessary. The difficulty in legislating appeared to be to confine the Bill to the mere object of removing the disability, without proceeding by implication to do what he believed would be very generally deprecated, giving the clergy and laity the power, when assembled, to make laws; or imparting to any regulations on which they might agree the force of an Imperial enactment. In the Bill which he had prepared he had endeavoured to collect what he believed to be the prevailing sentiment on both sides of the House; for he had found, on both sides, a concurrent expression of opinion that it was absolutely necessary that there should be legislative interference, but that it should be expressly confined to conferring upon the Church a liberty correspondent with that enjoyed by other religious sects. To that purpose it was strictly limited; and, therefore, while it took away from the clergy, while in the Colonies and doing spiritual duty there, the disability to meet, either by themselves or with their lay brethren, for the purpose of dealing with their ecclesiastical affairs, it was careful to provide that no authority should be conferred, or derived by implication from the Statute which could give to any regulations made at any of these meetings any binding force, unless, indeed, they were confirmed by an Act of the Colonial Legislature. These were the general features of the Bill, which he hoped would meet with the assent of both sides of the House.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that he would not
1322
oppose the introduction of the Bill, but he must reserve to himself the right of judging of the measure when the Bill was printed. He was afraid that it might be open to the objection that it did little else than relieve the clergy in the Colonies from the supremacy of the Crown.
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, that the measure would not abolish the supremacy of the Crown, but would merely place the Church of England in the Colonies in the same position as other religious bodies. It was a melancholy thing that this boon should have come so late, but he thanked the Government for having taken up a question with which all previous Governments had been unable or unwilling to grapple.
THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, that there was no more reason to fear that by this measure the clergy would be relieved from the supremacy of the Crown than from their obedience to the laws of England.
Leave given.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Solicitor General, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Peel.
Bill read 1°.
The House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock till Monday next.