Commons Sitting of 18 December 1854

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Jurors and Juries (Ireland) (No. 2); Enlistment of Foreigners.

OFFICERS IN THE CRIMEA—THE IN COME TAX.
MR. JOHN O'CONNELLbegged to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if Her Majesty's Government would consider the propriety of bringing in a Bill to exonerate from liability to income tax on their pay, officers of every branch of Her Majesty's service in employment at the seat of war, while there employed?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is exceedingly disagreeable to me, and I am sure I may say the same for my colleagues, to give an answer in the negative to any question which purports to have in view—as I am quite certain the hon. Member has in view—the benefit and advantage of the army in the Crimea, and which is intended as an expression of grateful feeling to that army. I agree with the hon. Gentleman in thinking that no expression of grateful feeling on the part of this House, or of the other branch of the Legislature, to that army could be too strong; but I am sorry to say it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill of that kind, and simply for these reasons—first, I don't know that the time has arrived to consider any arrangements with respect to rewards for the army in the Crimea; and, in the next place, if the hon. Member directs his eyes to the Gazette, he may be satisfied that the attention of the proper department of the Government has been already directed to that subject. But I must point out to him two grounds affording paramount reasons for objecting to a proposal of this kind. The first of them is, that where the Government think fit to give a reward to a public servant they ought to give it as a reward, and not by way of exemption from a tax. The creation of exemptions is so mischievous, so delusive, and so sure of being productive of future embarrassment, that I trust the House will take every opportunity of getting rid of such exemptions, and will do nothing to create them afresh. And,
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lastly, I should be sorry to adopt a form of reward for the army in the Crimea which would only apply to a comparatively small and wealthy portion of those of whom that army is composed; whereas I think that whatever we do we should recognise no distinction between the officers and the men, but should acknowledge equally the merits of every man belonging to that noble army.

EXCHANGE OF VESSELS WITH PRUSSIA.
ADMIRAL WALCOTT: Jealousy for the efficiency of the Navy alone induces me, otherwise most unwillingly at this time, to put a question respecting an Act which impeaches the resources and capabilities of our Royal Arsenals and private yards, and apparently betrays great improvidence on the part of Government in neglecting to prepare vessels adapted for a known and special service, when every delay, omission, and error, and appearance of dependence on any aid but our own, is of serious import in such matters. The question he had to ask of the First Lord of the Admiralty was, on what grounds an exchange had been effected with the King of Prussia of the Thetis frigate for two gun-boats?
SIR JAMES GRAHAM: The exchange to which the hon. and gallant Officer refers has not been completed, but it has been contemplated, and is still contemplated. The circumstances are these:—In the month of June the Prussian Government applied to Her Majesty's Government to know if they were willing to exchange for two gun-boats, made in this country by Mr. Russell, of peculiar construction, light draught of water, carrying heavy guns, and capable of being steered fore and aft —two old corvettes. Her Majesty's Government said they had no objection to such an exchange on principle, but it was necessary to inspect the vessels before they agreed to the proposal. They made inquiry respecting them; Mr. Scott Russell went to Dantzic for the purpose of inspecting them; and reported as his opinion that they were perfectly well suited for the Baltic service, and that it was well worth their while to make trial of the new construction in active war. On that ground the Prussian Government were told that there was no objection at that time to the exchange. That was. I think, in the month of June. Some delay took place, and it was not until the month of September that the Prussian Government acceded to the proposal we made, that instead of two corvettes, one

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old frigate should be given in exchange for the two vessels in question. In the month of September there was no great anxiety on our part to effect the exchange for those two vessels, because they were not applicable to the Baltic service for this year; but the Prussian Government intimated that they thought the honour of the British Crown was involved in the exchange, and it was not thought proper by us to involve a question of good faith in the matter. Accordingly it has been arranged that, if the two vessels shall be sent to us by the Prussian Government towards the close of the year, the British Government shall take them in exchange for the frigate; but the exchange has not yet been completed. [An hon. MEMBER: What is the draught of the two gun-boats?] I am not quite certain, but I believe about eleven feet.

THE VOTE OF THANKS—INSERTION OF NAMES.
The Resolutions of the 15th December, giving the thanks of this House to the officers and men engaged in the military and naval operations in the Crimea and the Black Sea, having been read,
LORD JOHN RUSSELLmoved that the names of Major General Airey, Major General Estcourt, and Rear Admiral Stopford, be inserted.
Resolved, Nemine Contradicente—
"That the like Thanks be given to Brigadier General, now Major General, Richard Airey, Quartermaster General, and to Brigadier General, now Major General, James Bucknall Bucknall Estcourt, Adjutant General."
And—
"That the like Thanks be given to Rear Admiral the Honourable Montagu Stopford, Companion of the Most honourable Order of the Bath, and Captain of the Fleet."

MILITIA SURGEONS.
On Motion that the House do go into Committee on the Militia Bill,
MR. BRADYbegged to call the attention of the House to the circumstances in which medical officers of the militia are placed at the present moment. The Militia Bill was similar to that which had been passed during the last war; but circumstances were changed, and that which in former times might have been perfectly just, might, under present circumstances, be the reverse. It was well known to the Members of the House that the surgeons acting under the present Militia Bill were
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men of the highest character in their profession. They were men holding a local position, and many of them were rendering essential service to the localities in which they resided. It was proposed that those men should be taken away to perform active duty in the Colonies, or in different portions of the kingdom, and there kept on active service for two or three years, and then disbanded without a penny of compensation, saving the daily pay they had received during the time. It was a well-known fact, and should be remembered, that at the present time the standard of education in the College of Surgeons was reduced in order to make up the deficiency existing, and that the army and naval medical boards had not got a single candidate upon their lists. Under these circumstances, the Bill was to be passed, and the Government would be doing great injustice to the men they were collecting into the militia force, unless the medical officers were placed on the permanent staff. He hoped his observations would not be allowed to pass idly by; that they would be weighed and considered, and that justice would be done to those men by improving their position. Something should be secured to them for coming forward at that time to render essential service to the country.

MILITIA BILL.
Bill considered in Committee.
Clause 1 (Empowering Her Majesty to accept the voluntary offers of the Militia to serve out of the United Kingdom).
MR. BANKESsaid, he had an Amendment to move, which would qualify its terms. It was proposed that it should be lawful for Her Majesty to accept the services, and to employ in any parts or places out of the United Kingdom, under the regulations and restrictions specified in the Act, such part of the militia as it might be deemed advisable so to employ; and to that proposition he desired to add the following words "not exceeding in any case three-fourths of the number actually serving in any regiment, battalion, or corps of any such militia." They had to consider at the present moment, not merely the provisions of the Act which the Government proposed to pass, but also to consider the effect of the Act as it might operate in future times as a precedent which would be referred to in future exigencies of a public nature like the present. The Bill at present offered to them was founded upon

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a measure which was passed towards the close of the last great war, and which was considered of very great importance, because it gave to the Crown a power over the militia which it had never possessed before. At present, no doubt, there was another great exigency, but it was to be distinguished from that which had formerly occurred. In the year 1813, the powers given by the former Act were demanded and willingly given by the then existing House of Commons. At that period the great enemy of this country, Napoleon, was engaged in the great struggle which was then taking place before his first deposition or abdication; and it was a crisis of vast importance, because there was little doubt that in the event of that great Emperor succeeding, his attention would be again turned towards the destruction of this country, and if he had been again established in the plenitude of power on his throne, they had every reason to expect a reiteration of those threats of invasion which for so many years had engaged the attention of this country. It was a question, then, at that time, whether it was better that they should defend the soil of this country by meeting him with their forces in France, than that they should await the possibility of battles and combats on their own shores. It was, therefore, a very fair and reasonable proposition with regard to that view of the question, that even the constitutional force of the country should be sent abroad to effect the object to which he referred. The house of Commons readily accepted the proposition, and when the Act was proposed it was cheerfully accepted. There was contained in that Act of Parliament a provision, the omission of which in the present Bill he now proposed to supply. It was then considered that, however earnest and desirous the militia of that time were to go abroad on this service, good policy did not permit that the country should be entirely stripped of defensive force; and it was therefore enacted as a positive proviso in the Bill that one-fourth of each regiment should be retained at home. That proviso was not introduced into the former Act without very mature consideration, and he could not but think that it must be owing to haste in the councils of the existing Cabinet that it should have been omitted from the present measure, he found that, a Motion having been made to reduce the amount of the proportion which should be retained at
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home, Lord Castlereagh resisted the proposition, on the ground that any such alteration would tend to destroy the militia itself—a result which, if probable, would have deterred him from proposing or proceeding with the measure—and that he wished to consult at once the fair freedom of the service and the preservation of the militia, which, he believed, was interwoven with the fundamental security of the country. It was, therefore, the opinion of the Ministers of that day, that if the whole of a militia regiment, or any larger proportion than that fixed by their Bill, were permitted to go abroad, it would prove the destruction of the militia. He was aware that there were many officers to whom it must be very inconvenient to go abroad, and who were, in fact, disqualified from active or foreign service by age or other circumstances; though, should the whole of the regiment volunteer, many would be induced to go at great personal sacrifice, whose presence would be of little actual advantage to the service. By the proposed provision, he thought they would guard at once the public interest and private feelings. The same observation applied to the privates. If the whole of a regiment were permitted to volunteer, he believed they would find that, in the enthusiasm of the moment, many men would shrink from declining to accompany their comrades who could ill be spared from their homes. He urged this as a social question of great importance; for although the difference might not be great as to the numbers actually obtained, the result would be very different in reference to the feelings of those concerned, whilst the proviso would offer no obstacle to the salutary working of the Bill, and would have the effect of rendering it popular throughout the kingdom. As they were now proposing not merely a measure for the present, but a precedent for the future, he should be happy to see the measure passed in a shape, which might be safely recommended for the adoption of posterity, if, after an interval of some forty years, the services of the militia should again be required. The present exigency was not of exactly the same character with that to meet which the former measure was passed. At the present moment we had no risk of invasion to anticipate, and the alternative was not proposed to them of fighting our battles on the shores of France or England. He contended that the efficiency of the measure would in no way be

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better promoted than by keeping at home an effective reserve. As we had now a Militia Bill universally recognised as efficient for its purpose, and popular throughout the kingdom, it would be a matter of great regret that its working should be impaired, and the prestige it had acquired be destroyed. He hoped the noble Viscount (Viscount Palmerston) would have no difficulty in acceding to a proposition giving to the militia regiments the power of volunteering in very large numbers if they thought fit, but preventing a majority from overwhelming a minority. He should be sorry to see the slightest impediment in the way of increasing our resources, but he believed that the proviso would in fact operate favourably for that end.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONfelt bound to say that the hon. and learned Gentleman had made his proposal in a spirit of perfect fairness, and in a manner showing that his object was by no means to frustrate or impair the efficiency of the measure, but, according to his own view, to improve it and make it more acceptable and better calculated to work. He (Viscount Palmerston) would endeavour to meet the proposition in the same spirit. He must, however, beg leave to say, that he did not admit that the circumstances of the present moment were parallel to those to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred during the latter period of the last war. There was, as indeed the hon. and learned Gentleman himself indicated, a material difference between them. Though the country was at that period carrying on operations on a great scale upon the Continent, still it was also by no means secure from the risk of having to defend itself on its own shores. But at the present time the country was carrying on extensive and important military operations at a distance from its shores, and in the present state of things there was no likelihood—indeed he might almost say there was no possibility—of the country having to defend itself from foreign invasion. Therefore there existed not the same reason as formerly for maintaining a large force at home. So far, therefore, as the argument, on which the reservation with respect to the number of militiamen to be sent abroad was inserted in the former Bill, consisted in the belief that circumstances might possibly arise, from unforeseen events, rendering it necessary to employ the militia for home defence, so far that argument did not apply to the present moment. However, he
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entirely subscribed to the sentiments expressed in that passage from Lord Castlereagh's speech which the hon. and learned Gentleman had quoted, because no man in the country could entertain a stronger sense than himself of the great value of a militia force and of the great importance of continuing it as a permanent element of the military arrangements, and, he would say, also, of the civil and social arrangements of the country. Not only was it a most important ingredient in the means the country might possess to repel foreign aggression at any time when it might be suddenly called on so to do, but he regarded the militia likewise as a most valuable social element, inasmuch as it brought the gentry of the country in contact with the lower and working classes of the community, and cemented the bond of union, which should always unite them, by common pursuits, common associations, and common objects; and he was convinced that, in a political and social point of view, the militia was just as valuable as it was in a military point of view as part of the defensive force of the kingdom. It was, therefore, needless for him to say, that he should be the last man to propose anything likely to be injurious to the militia system, or to refuse his consent to anything obviously calculated to render that system more permanent, useful, and practicable in its operation. Consequently, he was not disposed to object to the principle of the hon, and learned Gentleman's proposal. Indeed, though the Bill at present contained no restriction of the kind, he was sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman would allow that, in the exercise of the large discretion which the Bill, as framed, would confer on the Government, it was of all things unlikely that, in regulating the number for service abroad of any given regiment of militia, whose offer for such service might be accepted, they would not provide that a certain portion of the regiment should remain at home for the purpose of relieving and supplying any deficiency which might arise in respect to the part of the regiment employed abroad. The hon. and learned Gentleman had put his Motion on another ground, which he (Viscount Palmerston) should be the last person to question; he had put it on the ground of personal feeling. Now, undoubtedly, if any class of men were entitled to expect that the Government, in any arrangements they might make, should show the utmost deference

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and consideration for their feelings, the officers of militia had the strongest possible claim on this account; because no class of men had more cheerfully and more effectively devoted themselves to that public service which they had to perform than the gentlemen and others connected with the militia. Both officers and privates had behaved so well that they were fully entitled to expect from the Government and from Parliament full deference and allowance for any personal feelings by which they might be actuated. The only objection which he should have to the hon. and learned Gentleman's Amendment would be, that it proposed to define the proportion of those to be sent abroad in reference to the numbers actually serving in the regiment. This was a very vague and indefinite standard of comparison, for the numbers actually serving in a regiment varied from time to time. He should have no objection to the hon. and learned Member's proposition if, instead of the numbers actually serving in a regiment, the actual establishment of the regiment or battalion in question were substituted as the standard of proportion. This was a fixed amount, and there would consequently never be any difficulty in ascertaining the numbers to he sent abroad; while, on the other hand, the number actually serving varied from week to week, so that it would always be almost impossible to say that any given number of men should exactly constitute three-fourths of the number actually serving in a regiment. If the hon. and learned Gentleman could agree to this modification of his proposal, he (Viscount Palmerston) should offer no objection to it.
MR. DISRAELIsaid, that as the noble Lord had substantially accepted his right hon. Friend's proposition, he had only to express his satisfaction at the spirit of concession manifested by the Government.
Amendment agreed to.
On the Question that the Clause stand part of the Bill,
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYasked whether it was clear by this clause that a regiment volunteering to go to one garrison would not find itself carried to another, and also if the clause contemplated any other garrisons than the places in the Mediterranean?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that the mode in which the Bill would work would be this:— A communication would be made to certain regiments of militia, asking them to volunteer for certain places
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named in that communication. They would be asked, for instance, to serve in any part of the Mediterranean, and in the attestation which each man who engaged would make, the places named in the communication would be mentioned; and of course no man could be held liable to serve in any other places than those mentioned ill the attestation.
LORD LOVAINEwished to know whether the head-quarters would go with the three-fourths sent abroad, or remain with the one fourth left at home?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid that, of course, if a whole regiment were to go abroad, the regiment would go in a body, and the head-quarters would go with them. It was contemplated that portions only of regiments should go; and, as it would be inconvenient to have small portions of regiments acting as separate battalions, power was taken in the Bill to add portions of different regiments together, and to make provisional battalions of them, as was done in 1804.
LORD LOVAINEthought the noble Lord had not fully answered his question. Would the three-quarters sent abroad be joined to part of any other regiment to form a provisional battalion; or would it go out as a separate regiment, leaving the other quarter at home as a sort of depot company?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that would depend very much upon the strength of the regiment volunteering. Suppose a regiment of 1,200 men, for instance, volunteered, if three-quarters of them were sent abroad they would be sufficient to form a separate battalion; but in the case of a regiment of 600 strong only volunteering, three-quarters of that regiment would be too small a number to form a separate battalion, and they would have to be added to portions of other regiments.
COLONEL DUNNEwished to know what objection there would be to regiments of militia volunteering for actual service in the field?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, Her Majesty's Government had no wish to ask the militia for more sacrifices than were actually required by the public service. All that it was thought necessary to ask the militia for was to do duty in certain garrisons in the Mediterranean, thus setting free regular regiments, which, of course, were more fitted from their nature to take the field than the best militia regiments could be.
MR. BENTINCKwished to know whether it were intended that the portions of regiments remaining at home, whether they included or not the head-quarters, would be embodied together to serve in this country as provisional battalions. [Viscount PALMERSTON: No.] He understood then that it was intended they should remain in their respective counties for the purpose of continuing the duties of their service as usual.
COLONEL SIBTHORPwished to know, in the case of three detachments on a foreign station forming a provisional battalion, who was to command them? He had the honour, worthy or unworthy, of being a full colonel, and should decidedly object to serving under a lieutenant colonel, hoping that he had done nothing to merit degradation. Until he was condemned or found incompetent, he could not submit to be placed in a lower rank than he had hitherto held.
LORD LOVAINEthought his original question had not yet been fairly answered. Suppose a large regiment of 1,200 men were to volunteer, 800 of them would be sent abroad, and 400 would remain at home—would the head quarters go abroad with the 800, or remain at home with the 400?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONmust ask the noble Lord to say what he meant by head quarters?
LORD LOVAINEsaid, he meant the staff of the regiment.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that such portion of the staff would go with the regiment as was necessary for the performance of the regimental duties.
LORD LOVAINE: Supposing the lieutenant colonel declined to volunteer, would the regiment be commanded by the major?
MR. S. HERBERTsaid, that so many regiments had volunteered that there would be no difficulty in getting regiments in which the lieutenant colonel had volunteered.
COLONEL NORTHasked a question in respect to detachments of regiments going out. Suppose 300 from one, and 400 from another, would the adjutant accompany such a detachment? He thought that the Bill before the Committee placed the country gentlemen of England in rather a disagreeable position, and more especially as to those who, like himself, had passed a great number of years in Her Majesty's service. He was sure that in private
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matters there was no person in the country whose opinion he would sooner take than that of the noble Viscount; but upon a measure of this importance he thought that the country gentlemen should clearly understand the peculiar pressure which required their services, He had no hesitation in saying, that if he were merely called upon to reside in Corfu or Malta, for three or four years, the inconvenience would be so serious that he would, if possible, avoid it—but if the pressure be such that every English gentleman would be expected to come to the assistance of the country, he felt he was speaking the feelings of others as well as his own, when he said that no loss or inconvenience would prevent them going to any part of the world where their services could be of use. He had served a great number of years in the Army, and he was anxious and ready to offer his services if occasion required. If, however, there were no such pressure, he thought that those who were younger, and who had fewer ties to bind them to this country, should be selected for foreign service. While they had the Bill before them they ought to make the phraseology of it so plain as to protect the country gentlemen from the snarling cry that might be raised, that they had not done their duty.
SIR J. PAKINGTONsaid, he was sure that when an hon. Gentleman put a question of this importance he was entitled to a more satisfactory answer than his noble Friend near him had received from the Secretary at War. It was not the sort of answer which an hon. Gentleman on that (the Opposition) side of the House ought to receive from the right hon. Gentleman. The observations of the right hon. Gentleman were no answer to the question of the noble Lord. His noble Friend referred to matters of considerable importance as to the clauses of an Act of Parliament. The question was—what the effect of this clause would be? He was rather surprised to hear the noble Viscount ask his noble Friend what he meant by the head quarters of a regiment. They wanted to know what would be the effect of the alteration now made in the Bill? What would be the position of the head quarters, the field officers and the superior officers of the regiments? He would take the case which his noble Friend had himself suggested—that of 800 volunteering to go abroad, and 400 remaining at home. The fourth section provides that in the event

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of 500 men having volunteered, and the proper proportion of officers not volunteering with them, it would be then open to the Crown to resort to promotion, and to take other steps to fill up the vacancies so created. He apprehended the question of his noble Friend to be this—what was to be the position of the field officers in the case supposed? Were they to be superseded?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONwas understood to reply in the negative.
SIR J. PAKINGTON: Well, then, he thought that they required some explanation as to the position of field officers not being able to go out with the regiment.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that their position in such case would be precisely the same as it was at the present moment. They might remain at home, or go abroad if they pleased.
LORD LOVAINEsaid, it appeared to him that the portion of the regiment which remained at home would be thrown upon the shelf, or disembodied.
MR. S. HERBERTsaid, that in the answer which he had given to the noble Lord he did not mean the slightest discourtesy. He wished to observe, that the case which the noble Lord had so ingeniously raised was never likely to occur. The number of regiments volunteering en masse, with their lieutenant colonels at their head, was so great, that the only difficulty was, to determine which offers to select. It was clear, therefore, that no difficulty would arise from want of field officers.
MR. BENTINCKsaid, he understood that it was proposed to disembody that portion of the militia regiments which remained at home. If the Government proposition—as he understood it—be adopted, he was at a loss to know how the recruiting process was to go on—how they were to fill up the blanks occurring in consequence of the number of volunteers from the militia regiments to the line.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that the hon. and gallant Member would recollect that almost the whole of the militia force had been raised while it was yet disembodied, and before it was called out for training. The portions now disembodied would have the same means as before of obtaining recruits.
MR. PALKthought there was one point of some importance, because it appeared to him that the Government were throwing a veil of mystery over that which involved
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nothing but a simple statement of fact. There was a power taken in the Bill to appoint field officers in her Majesty's service. He begged to ask the noble Lord whether it was the intention of the Government to appoint field officers who had served in the regular army to command those detachments of regiments intended to serve in garrison duty abroad?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that he believed it would not be necessary to do so, as the Government had already received ample offers from militia officers to afford the Government the means of completely officering all the militia regiments which went abroad.
MR. HENLEYwished to know how this Bill would work in the event of its being desirable hereafter to extend the service of the regiments sent abroad with their own consent? Could the system of volunteering go on toties quoties—in other words, if a number of officers and men who were sworn in to proceed to a Mediterranean station should, after a while, get tired of being cooped up in a state of inactivity at Gibraltar or Malta, and would like to go to the seat of war in the Crimea, would it be in the power of the Government to give them an opportunity of gratifying this wish? This was a point of some importance, because we might before long be in want of forces. So little foresight had been shown by the Government, that they were not aware six months ago that they would want the militia to perform even garrison duty abroad; and, therefore, it was desirable that they should at once determine beforehand whether, supposing more troops were wanted, proposals would be entertained from militia regiments who were near the seat of war, and who would like to see a little actual fighting.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that the regiments who offered, and whose offers were accepted, to serve on any station in the Mediterranean, would be limited under such an offer and attestation to service in that particular quarter of the globe. With regard to any further extension of service, they would stand exactly in the same position as regiments at home. Their service could only be extended under a fresh offer, accepted spontaneously by them, and under a fresh engagement and attestation; but they would stand, with regard to this matter, precisely on the same footing as if they had not volunteered at all.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
On Clause 2, relating to the bounty to be given under the Bill.
COLONEL SIBTHORPobjected to the part of the clause which provided that the amount of the bounty should be fixed from time to time by the Secretary at War. He wished it to be distinctly defined how much bounty was to be given to every non-commissioned officer, drummer, or private who was disposed to volunteer; and he had given notice of an Amendment in this clause to that effect. The Government ought to deal liberally in the matter of the bounty, and if they did so he believed they might easily obtain a large force of most efficient men. He also hoped that the period of service for which the militia were to engage themselves should be clearly specified in the clause, as the words "during the war" were very unsatisfactory and indefinite, and would seriously interfere with the attainment of the object of the measure.
MR. S. HERBERTsaid, that the effect of the gallant officer's Amendment was, not to fix the amount of the bounty in the Act of Parliament, but merely to direct that a specified bounty should be fixed. Of course, this would be done, and it would be the business of the Secretary at War to do it. It would not do to insert the amount in the Act, because it must obviously vary according to the circumstances of the time. It was, therefore, obviously better that it should be left to the discretion of some one to fix the amount of the bounty.
MR. DISRAELIbelieved that the amount was fixed in the old Act.
MR. S. HERBERTadmitted that it was; but said that there was this difference between the two cases, that the former Act was passed under an immediate pressure and to meet peculiar circumstances, and the result could be judged of at the moment. It would be far preferable to leave the amount of the bounty in the hands of the militia officers, because the difficulty or facility of obtaining men varied considerably.
MR. HILDYARDtook the opportunity of the discussion upon this clause to throw out to the Government, and particularly to the President of the Poor Law Board, a suggestion which, if adopted, would act as a very effective bounty in aid of this Bill. His suggestion was, that the wife and family of no militiaman should be removable during the period of his voluntary
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service. The effect of this would be, in the first place, to prevent a very great deal of the expense incurred in removal; and secondly, it would only be just to married men volunteering, because such persons did not at all apprehend that the step they took would render their families any more liable to become chargeable to the parish. If this inducement were held out, he believed that many married men would be willing to go abroad. There was a great difference between the case of such men and those who enlisted in the regular army, and he thought a much larger proportion of the militia were married men than was the case in the regular army. He believed that, in fact, many had volunteered into the militia under the belief that they would not be required to leave their wives and families. Of course, if they now volunteered for foreign service under the influence of that patriotic spirit which so happily pervaded the nation, they ought to be encouraged in every possible way to do so. He would recommend that the sum necessary for the maintenance of the families of the militiamen to whom he referred should be taken from the Consolidated Fund, as the advantage to be gained by the measure would be a national one. He would not make any motion on this subject, but he hoped that the President of the Poor Law Board would give this suggestion his consideration.
MR. HENLEYsaw nothing in the Bill to make it clear whether the men who volunteered for this particular service were still to be entitled to receive the annual sums in the shape of bounty which the Government had originally contracted to pay them when they enlisted for the militia. That was a point which he thought ought to be placed beyond all doubt by the clause.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that of course the new bounty paid would include any arrears of the former periodical bounty that might remain payable for services still to be performed in the militia at home. Of course, the fresh engagements contemplated by this Bill would cancel the former bargains made with the men as to the sum of 1l. which they were annually to have received. With regard to the suggestion made by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hildyard), he thought that that hon Member was under a mistake in supposing that a larger proportion of militiamen than of men belonging to the line were married. He believed that the case

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was quite the contrary, and that a very small proportion of the militia were married; and, in accepting offers to go abroad, the preference would naturally be given to single men.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that he understood the noble Lord to state that the previous bargains with the men volunteering for this service were to be cancelled, and that they would not receive the annual payment that had been guaranteed to them for a given number of years. Therefore, in the case of a man who volunteered for a specified service, would all claims for future annual payments be put an end to?
MR. S. HERBERTsaid, that all must admit that, whatever arrangements were made with men belonging to the class of these volunteers, the most scrupulous good faith must be kept with them. This was the spirit in which the Government desired to deal with them, and care would be taken that the men would not be losers by any bargain into which they might enter. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henley) would be satisfied with this assurance.
MR. HENLEYwas sure the Government desired to act with good faith towards these persons, but this point ought to be made clear by the Bill, because the men might wish to know the provisions of the measure in this respect before they volunteered.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that he understood objections were entertained to engaging the men to serve abroad "during the war," as provided by this clause. Some persons imagined that the war would last ten years, though he hoped it would not. Yet, to get rid of this difficulty, he was ready to substitute words making the service one that should continue for a period of five years, instead of during the war. The five years' engagement would be strictly limited to service in the particular place or places specified in the offers made, and would not be a general engagement to serve in any station out of the United Kingdom.
Amendment agreed to.
COLONEL SIBTHORPmoved to leave out the words, "that such bounties as shall from time to time be fixed by the Secretary at War," in order to substitute the following—
"That it should be distinctly and definitively fixed as to the full amount of bounties to be given to each non-commissioned officer, drummer,
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or private soldier who shall be disposed to volunteer his services."
MR. S. HERBERThoped the gallant Colonel would not press his Motion, as it would obviously be unwise to fix either the minimum or maximum of the bounties. That was a matter which ought to be left to the discretion of the Government, who could then vary the bounty according to the circumstances of the moment.
MR. DISRAELIsaid, his opinion was, that upon this point the Government should be as unfettered as possible. At some subsequent period the Government might be obliged to call for the presence of the militia at other garrisions than those which were now contemplated, and, therefore, any bounty which might be fixed at the present moment might not suit all the circumstances which probably would arise in the future. The Government had already conceded a very important improvement in this clause, and he, therefore, hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would not press his Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
Clause as amended to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3 agreed to.
On Clause 4,
MR. FITZROYmoved the insertion of words to the effect that it should be lawful for Her Majesty to accept the services of one field officer of any regiment of militia in which 300 private men, "or any smaller number, not being less than three-fourths," of the number of private men actually serving in such regiment, shall offer to extend their services under this Act.
Motion agreed to; Clause, thus amended, to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5 and 6 agreed to.
COLONEL SIBTHORPmoved the omission of Clause 7, which provides that no militia officer should rank higher than lieutenant colonel, and that the following clause should be inserted instead—
"That every rank which each officer in the militia held heretofore shall continue to be held by him, and that be shall continue to hold and to exercise all the powers and functions of command appertaining to his rank which he did, and during the whole of the period he may be employed in service out of the United Kingdom."
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONwas sorry that he could not agree to the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member. These things must be done according to general rules and principles, and the inconvenience of having officers of militia with the rank

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of colonel, liable to be found in garrison with officers of the line in command of a battalion with only the rank of lieutenant colonel, was felt so strongly that, in the arrangements which it became his (Viscount Palmerston's) duty to make for the militia about to be raised, he determined that in future no officer should be appointed to the command of a militia regiment with the rank of a full colonel, and that in future militia regiments should be commanded, like regiments of the line, by lieutenant colonels. The same reason which led him to think that that was a proper arrangement for a regiment of militia at home, would naturally apply to those provisional battalions that had to go abroad; and Her Majesty's Government thinking that, in the organisation of the militia at home, it was desirable that all future appointments of officers in the command of regiments should be made with the rank of lieutenant colonel only, it would be inconsistent on their part to send provisional battalions abroad, where they would be liable to be mixed up with regiments of the line in garrison duty, and allow them to be commanded by full colonels. It was, therefore, following out the principles upon which the militia organisation had been based that Government had determined that the provisional battalions should not be commanded by officers holding a higher rank than that of lieutenant colonel. Everybody knew—and no one better than the gallant Colonel himself—that regiments of the line were always commanded by lieutenant colonels, and that it would be attended with great practical inconvenience if a militia battalion going abroad were commanded by a full colonel, whilst the regiment of the line was commanded by a lieutenant colonel.
COLONEL SIBTHORP: Then, I ask the noble Lord what position I am to be in?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The gallant officer is one of those persons of rank, position, fortune, and social connection in this country whom—with great deference I may be allowed to say—I should wish to see employed in exercising their beneficial influence at home, rather than in the command of regiments of militia abroad. And though I should have the greatest confidence in a regiment going into action commanded by the gallant officer, nevertheless he must be conscious that his influence in his own circle at home might be attended with greater advantage to the nation.
COLONEL SIBTHORP: In reply to the facetious observations of the noble Lord, all I have to say is, that the sooner he and his colleagues vacate the Treasury bench, give up their salaries, and repair to the seat of war, the better it will be for the country.
Amendment negatived.
LORD HOTHAM: As it was now the avowed intention of the Government to send militia regiments to garrisons abroad, he would ask them how they proposed to deal with officers who might hold commissions in the Army at the same time that they served in militia regiments stationed in foreign garrisons. In the case of regimental duties of every description the senior officer in the regiment necessarily took the command. It was, however, a very common thing for the major or majors of the regiments to have superior rank in the army to the lieutenant colonel of the regiment, and the rule of the service was, therefore, that whilst in regimental duties only the senior officer in the regiment took the command, in duties of a general nature, that was to say, when one regiment was brigaded with another, or discharging garrison duties with another, the command then fell, not upon the senior officer of the regiment, but upon the senior officer in the army. In the case of two regiments brigaded together, the major, whatever his seniority in the army, served under the lieutenant colonel of his regiment; but if the officer commanding the brigade happened to be disabled the command was then taken, not by the lieutenant colonel of the regiment, but by the major, because his rank was superior in the army. Now the Government had encouraged the entrance into the militia of half-pay officers in the army. It seemed to him, therefore, that if, after encouraging old officers of this description to serve in the militia, the regiment of militia was sent to a foreign garrison, it would be dealing unjustly with those officers to ask them to serve in respect of garrison duties in an inferior position to that in which they would be entitled to serve if they had remained in the regular army. Take the case of the garrison of Gibraltar. There might be several regiments of militia and regiments of the line in that garrison at the same time, and in those militia regiments officers of a rank in the army, but upon half-pay, superior to any of the commanding officers in the garrison. Indeed, an officer might find in command of the garrison a person who had

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previously been one of his subalterns. It would be a matter of great hardship, therefore, to old officers, whose presence in the militia Government was anxious to encourage, if officers of this rank were ordered to attend a general court martial without having the same rank there that they would have enjoyed had they remained on full pay in regiments of the line. In some cases, the question might concern the command itself. If he mistook not, it was only within the last two or three years that the garrison of Bermuda was afflicted with a pestilence of a dreadful description, and the officer in command of that garrison was twice or three times changed in consequence of the person exercising the command being struck down by death or sickness. It might happen that in a garrison the officer succeeding to the command might be disabled; and, according to the rule as now laid down, unless the noble Lord consented to its modification, the command of that garrison might devolve on a purely militia officer, whilst there might be serving in that or another militia regiment an officer of twenty or thirty years' standing, who, he (Lord Hotham) supposed, would be a more competent person to assume the command of the garrison. In making these remarks he did not mean to reflect upon any of the officers of militia; they were entitled to every possible amount of consideration which Parliament could extend to them; but ho was greatly mistaken if these officers on being appealed to would not say that, in such an emergency as he had described, they would infinitely rather see the garrison in which they were stationed under the command of an officer of twenty or thirty years' experience than their own. It was on these grounds that he (Lord Hotham) ventured to submit, that, inasmuch as they were about to alter the service of the militia regiments, and place them in garrisons with regiments of the line, they should recognise the station of the officers holding Her Majesty's commission, although serving in a militia regiment, and, as regarded garrison duty, put them in the same position as if in full pay in Her Majesty's Army; and he begged to move the insertion of a proviso to that effect.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONopposed the Amendment as inconsistent with the established law and practice of the army. All officers of militia who had been in the regular army must be upon half-pay—they could not accept a commission in the
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militia unless they were on half-pay, or had retired from their particular rank in the army; but no officers on half-pay could exercise military authority under the Mutiny Act. It was impossible for them, therefore, being in a foreign garrison upon half-pay of the army, and only upon full pay as a militia officer, to exercise under the Mutiny Act any military authority over any portion of the regular army stationed in the same garrison. No officer on half-pay could exercise military authority unless he was placed upon the staff; and that he conceived was a sufficient reason why the proposal of the noble Lord could not be adopted. To say, therefore, that they should rank according to their position in the army would be an empty enactment, unless they were also empowered to exercise military authority over regiments of the line, and unless any soldier disobeying their orders were made liable to be tried by a court-martial for such disobedience. But such a departure from the ordinary rules of the service would involve such a change in the fundamental principles of military organisation as to be liable to serious objections, and those objections would not be counterbalanced by any advantages which, in one case or another, might possibly arise on that proposal. It was not at all likely that in Gibraltar, Malta, or the Ionian Islands, such a circumstance could occur as that which had taken place in the Bermudas, and the garrison be left without some officer of rank, who would entirely override any regimental officer who might be in command of a militia regiment.
LORD HOTHAM: It was perfectly true that no officer on half-pay could exercise command unless he was put upon the staff, and, according to the terms of the Mutiny Act, no officer on half-pay could exercise military authority; but, in point of fact, this very Bill gave to officers in the militia service power to act under the Mutiny Act, for, by Clause 11, they were to serve indiscriminately with officers of the regular army upon courts-martial. The question, then, was, in what capacity they were to serve upon these courts-martial? And was it not just that they should take their place at the table of the court-martial according to the superior rank they held in the regular army, and not according to the inferior rank they held in the militia? Then, in regard to staff duties, were they or were they not to take the ordinary duties of the garrison, and were field

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officers of militia to act as field officers of the garrison or were they not? His position was that they ought to be on the roll of field officers in the garrison, according to their rank in the army, and not according to their rank in the militia. And, in asking this, he asked no more than was due to their services and what they had a right to expect from the Government, who had avowed that the service of those men was just what they required.
COLONEL NORTHthought the proposition of the noble Lord was but fair to those officers of the line who had joined the militia service, and should, therefore, give it his support.
COLONEL DUNNEdid not apprehend that many officers of the line would suffer by the measure of the Government as it stood, because he knew that officers of the line would not accept commissions in the militia of a rank inferior to that which they held in the regular army. The only thing worthy of consideration was, whether the time served by those officers in the militia should be counted as part of their regular service. In his opinion it ought.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that militia officers were brought under the Mutiny Act was undoubtedly true; but that was in virtue of the commissions under which they received their pay.
Amendment negatived; clause to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to; Clause 10 struck out; Clauses 11 to 15 agreed to; Clause 16 struck out; remaining clauses agreed to.
LORD LOVAINEdesired to add a clause to the Bill by which it should be put on record that, in the case of a certain portion of a regiment volunteering to go abroad, the remaining portion at home should be kept on duty to add vigour to the regiment that had been sent abroad.
MR. S. HERBERTdid not exactly see the effect of this clause, and thought it doubtful as to whether it was necessary to insert in the Act a clause stating that the portion of the regiment remaining at home should be embodied or disembodied, as this would be done according to the circumstances and the requirements of the time.
Clause withdrawn.
MR. BANKESmoved the insertion of the following proviso, namely— "Provided always, and be it further enacted, that the total number of officers, non-commissioned officers, and private men to be raised by
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this Act, by extending their services as hereinbefore mentioned, shall not exceed 15,000."
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, in point of fact it was not at all likely that Government would want so many as 15,000. They had followed the precedent of the former Act, which did not fix any particular limit, and it seemed to him it would be creating an unfounded apprehension that the whole militia were to be sent abroad if they inserted this proviso.
MR. BANKESsaid, the former Act did limit the number; the number was 30,000; but then the militia were wanted for the field, which was not the case here, and 15,000 would be sufficient. However, he would not press the proviso.
Motion withdrawn.
MR. FITZROYmoved the insertion of a clause making subalterns of militia, of five years' standing, eligible to the rank of captain without property qualification.
MR. HENRY HERBERTsuggested that subalterns who had served three years should be entitled to that privilege.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, it should be remembered that the five years included a period during which the regiment had been disembodied, and when the subaltern could only have served twenty-eight days in the year. He thought, therefore, the five years ought not to be considered too long.
MR. FRESHFIELDsaid, Mr. Bouverie, my objection to the clause is, that its tendency is not, as fully as I could wish, to promote the efficiency of the militia. In my opinion whatever can be offered in the form of reward, should be to those officers who manifest zeal and patriotism in our present struggle—I mean to those officers who join their more humble neighbours in the several counties to volunteer for any duty by which the soldiers of the line are set free for foreign service. I think that every officer who has accepted rank in his own county in the militia force ought in inclination, at least, to be ready to volunteer for the more extended duty which may be desirable. I say in inclination, because I am aware that many noblemen and gentlemen holding commissions in the militia have civil duties to discharge which are important to the public, and would render their volunteering for remote service not only inconvenient but prejudicial; and as to those noblemen and gentlemen, I would relieve them from any unfavourable impression which their not volunteering might

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otherwise warrant, by taking from them all choice, and disqualifying them from such service; but, on the other hand, officers not so rendered ineligible, but remaining at home as matter of choice and personal convenience, should reap no advantage beyond that conferred by the indulgence of such inconvenience. They have in that indulgence all to which they can be entitled. They do not equally with those who volunteer support the character of their county militia, and encourage the privates of the regiment, and to them, therefore, no peculiar advantages should be extended; and I should have been glad if Government had taken that view of the subject, which, in my opinion, is not carried out by the clause now under consideration. It is not, however, my intention to oppose the Clause, or in any way to impede the passing of the Bill.
Clause read 3a and added to the Bill.
MR. J. G. SMITHwished to draw the noble Lord's attention to the claims of subaltern officers in the militia to a retiring allowance. Certainly, they were entitled to it.
MR. BANKESsaid, it would be a great convenience to embodied militia regiments if they were permitted to use the ordinary military barracks of the country when they were not occupied by regular troops.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONwas quite aware of the necessity of such accommodation being afforded, and knew that a desire existed in the Quartermaster General's department to make arrangements for suitable quarters for the militia; but, unfortunately, at the conclusion of the last war, it not being apprehended that the country would have any occasion for barracks at any very early period, a great portion of them were sold or given up, and the present barrack accommodation was comparatively small. The first object of the Government had been to put into the barracks those persons who were employed in raising troops for the public service. After that, the militia were quartered in such barracks as were available. When there were but few regiments of militia embodied, care was taken to afford them accommodation in the barracks, but now that a great number of regiments were embodied it was impossible to find barrack room for them. With regard to Dorchester and Weymouth, with which district the right hon. and learned Gentleman was connected, those places were chiefly garrison towns for cavalry, and to put a regiment of
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infantry into a cavalry barracks required changes to be made which would afterwards render those barracks wholly disqualified for cavalry barracks. He could assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that it was the wish of Government to put the militia into barracks, as it was obvious that such a mode of quartering the men would greatly improve their discipline.
COLONEL ARCHDALLasked if county officers in Ireland would be eligible to hold commissions in the militia?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that there was an objection to appoint any person to a commission in the militia who had other public duties to perform which were incompatible with the duties imposed by such a commission.
COLONEL SIBTHORPconsidered that the allowance to the assistant surgeons ought to be considerably increased; those allowances were at present wholly inadequate to the station held by those persons. He also wished to know whether the colonels or lieutenant colonels of militia who preferred serving their country at home would be liable to be superseded by their juniors of similar rank on their return from foreign service?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that with regard to those officers who now held a rank of command in the militia, their rank would be wholly untouched by their regiments going abroad. They would remain full colonels of their regiment, and on the return of the troops from abroad would resume their command. All those who were in the position of the hon. and gallant colonel would continue to hold the rank and power they at present possessed.
Bill reported.
Bill, as amended, considered.
House resumed.
MR. FITZROYmoved a clause respecting notices for drawing out and embodying the militia regiments, which was agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

QUEEN'S SPEECH—ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
VISCOUNT DRUMLANRIG reported HER MAJESTY'S Answer to the Address of the Commons, as follows:—
"YOUR loyal and dutiful Address has afforded Me much satisfaction.
"I THANK you for the assurance of your support

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in the measures which I consider to be necessary for the vigorous prosecution of the War in which We are engaged. And I trust that the result of your exertions and sacrifices may, under the Blessing of the Almighty, be the establishment of the Peace of Europe on a secure and lasting foundation."

MOTION FOR SUPPLY.
Committee on Motion, "That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty."
Queen's Speech referred:—Motion considered.
(In the Committee.)
Queen's Speech read.
Resolved, "That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty."
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

SLIGO ELECTION.
MR. WHITESIDEmoved, "that there be laid before this House, a Copy of the Indictment found at the last Assizes for the county of Sligo against Michael Gethin, Henry Simpson, and James Simpson, directed by this House to be prosecuted for certain grave offences by the Attorney General for Ireland." He was told that it was impossible to obtain a conviction against these men from a common jury of Sligo and he therefore recommended that the case should be removed by certiorari into the Queen's Bench.
SIR JOHN YOUNGsaid, it was unusual to ask for the production of such a document as this, but still less was it usual for a Member of the House to give the Government advice as to the course which a law officer of the Crown ought to take. The observations of the hon. and learned Gentleman betrayed a want of courtesy from one Member of the bar to another.
MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he was at a loss to understand the latter remark of the right hon. Baronet, because, when the privileges of the House had been so shamefully violated as to induce a Select Committee unanimously to recommend that the parties should be prosecuted, he had a right, as a Member of the House, to make the observation he did, and to warn the right hon. Baronet of the fact, that it was in the power of the Attorney General to have an impartial trial by removing the matter into the Queen's Bench. He made that observation in no invidious sense, nor did he intend to make the least reflection upon the mode in which the former prosecution had been conducted.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, it was
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not intended to have a second trial, and he should be glad to know if the hon. and learned Gentleman intended to press the Address for a copy of the indictment?
MR. WHITESIDEreplied in the negative.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGNERS BILL.
Message from The Lords—That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to permit Foreigners to be enlisted, and to serve as Officers and Soldiers in Her Majesty's Forces."
LORD JOHN RUSSELL moved, that this Bill be now read a first time.
Bill read 1°; to be read 2° To-morrow.
MR. DISRAELI: I conclude the Bill will be in the hands of hon. Members to-morrow morning. For the sake of facilitating public business, I do not object to the second reading of the Bill to-morrow; but I should be sorry if the noble Lord would conclude from that that I do not object to the passing of this measure, for I shall offer it my most uncompromising opposition.
Adjourned at half after Eight o'clock.