Commons Sitting of 10 February 1853

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBERS SWORN.—For London, Right Hon. Lord John Russell; for Morpeth, Right Hon. Sir George Grey, baronet; for Nottingham, Right Hon. Edward Strutt; for Oxford University, Right Hon. William Ewart Gladstone; for Oxford, Right Hon. Edward Cardwell; for Southwark, Right Hon. Sir William Molesworth, baronet; for Dumfriesshire, Viscount Drumlanrig; for Haddingtonshire, Hon. Francis Wemyss Charteris; for Leeds, Right Hon. Matthew Talbot Baines; for Hertford, Hon. William Francis Cowper; for Marlborough, Right Hon. Lord Ernest Bruce; for Carlisle, Right Hon. Sir James Robert George Graham, baronet; for Scarborough, Earl of Mulgrave; for Tiverton, Right Hon. Viscount Palmerston; for Gloucester, Hon. Maurice Frederick Fitzhardinge Berkeley; for Wolverhampton, Right Hon. Charles Pelham Villiers; for Brighton, Lord Alfred Hervey; for Wilts (Southern Division), Right Hon. Sidney Herbert; for Southampton, Sir Alexander James Edmund Cockburn; for Limerick County. William Monsell, esquire; for Aylesbury, Richard Bethell, esquire.
NEW WRIT.—For Forfarshire, v. the Hon. Lauderdale Maule, Surveyor General of the Ordnance.
PUBLIC BILL.—1° Transfer of Aids.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL, having laid on the table a Convention relative to the succession to the Throne of Greece, said: In moving that these papers lie on the table, I think it may be convenient to the House if I state the course which Her Majesty's Government think it fit to pursue with respect to the measures which it is their intention to bring forward in the early part of the Session. In the first place, I beg to say at once that it is not my intention, nor is it at all necessary for me, to make any statement with regard to the general principles and views of Her Majesty's Government. A statement of
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that kind has been already made by my noble Friend at the head of the Government in another place, and that statement is so generally known, as to require no further remark on that subject. Her Majesty's Government intend, as soon as the Estimates for the year can be prepared and laid on the table and placed in the hands of hon. Members, to bring those Estimates under the consideration of the House. We hope to be able on Friday evening to ask the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Navy Estimates; and we intend, as soon as possible afterwards, to proceed with the Estimates for the Army and Ordnance. With regard to the number of men for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, I beg to state that there will be no increase beyond the number voted before the Christmas holidays. With respect to the sums to be voted, there will be a considerable increase, undoubtedly, upon the Estimates of last year; but when the details are submitted to the House, I believe such explanations will be given relative to that increase as will, I trust, prove satisfactory to the House. At all events, the reasons for that increase will be brought under discussion. Besides the Estimates, we propose to bring forward, in the first place, a Bill to enable the Legislature of Canada to dispose, with due regard to the interests of the present holders, of the clergy reserves of that province. It is the intention of the present Government to carry into effect the statement made on the part of the Crown by my noble Friend Earl Grey, when he was Secretary for the Colonies. The next question to be submitted to the House will be brought forward by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who, in moving for leave to introduce a Bill on the subject of pilotage, will state the views of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the light-dues and various other matters affecting the shipping interest. I propose on a very early day to ask the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, with a view to the removal of the disabilities now affecting the Jewish subjects of Her Majesty, and of placing them on the same footing as all other classes of Her Majesty's subjects. The next question which I propose to bring before the House—but not until after the Estimates have been voted—is one on the important subject of Education, I will not endeavour to excite

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any false hopes or expectations by saying that I am about to produce on the part of the Government a very large plan upon that subject; but I shall make certain proposals which I think, if they are adopted, will tend very greatly to further and promote the cause of education—a cause which impresses itself more and more upon the minds of all who consider the future destiny of this country, and which, in every respect, whatever opinions we may entertain, and whatever plans we may think best, must be considered one of the very highest importance. In stating the views of the Government upon the subject of the education of the poorer classes generally, I will, either then, or shortly afterwards, explain the course which Her Majesty's Government intend to pursue, and what is the proposition which they think should be made with respect to the Report which has been drawn up by the Commissioners relative to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and into the state, discipline, studies and revenues of those Universities. I am at present unable to state when any educational measure for Scotland will be brought forward, because I have not had an opportunity for some time of conversing with my hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate; but probably in the course of the present Session a Bill on that subject will be introduced by the Government. There is another question, relative to which the right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary for the Colonies (Sir J. Pakington) has given a notice—I mean the important question of Transportation, which has not escaped the attention of Her Majesty's Government—I need not now refer to the great and important changes which have taken place—changes to which I have alluded in former debates—changes both with respect to the constitution and government of our Australian colonies, and also with regard to the recent discoveries of gold in Australia. But I will state at once that the present Government entirely adhere to the intention of the late Government, that transportation to Australia shall cease. It is the intention of Her Majesty's Government—and I think wisely so—to adopt a course which has been rendered necessary by the changes I have just noticed. But it is impossible not to perceive, that in putting an end to the system of transportation to the Australian colonies, it is imperatively necessary to look most seriously to the question of secondary punishment. The
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late Lord Chancellor (Lord St. Leonards) intimated his intention of introducing a Bill into the other House of Parliament for the consolidation of the criminal law. I know not whether the noble and learned Lord intends to persevere with any measure of that description now. I have been deterred for some years from attempting any such consolidation by the conviction that it would be necessary to make some change with respect to transportation. I do not, therefore, consider it would be wise or expedient to consolidate the present law in respect to secondary punishments, merely for two or three years, when the whole subject must necessarily come under consideration at the period when the question of transportation shall be finally disposed of. I know not, I say again, what are the present intentions of Lord St. Leonards on this subject; but Her Majesty's Government will at a future period have a proposal to make with respect to the system of secondary punishments. I may say, therefore, that the Government have already come to the determination to put an end to transportation to the Australian colonies, which determination will be carried into effect by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department. Hereafter—when those vessels which are already about to sail with convicts shall have left this country—it is not intended to send any more vessels with convicts to Van Dicmen's Land, or to any of the Australian colonies. The House will feel that the topic to which I have just adverted, namely, that of transportation, acquires additional importance from the determination which has been arrived at by both Governments on this important subject, because when we propose measures which will deprive the administrators of the criminal law of the power of awarding that punishment which has hitherto proved an important means of deterring from crime, it becomes, if possible, the more necessary that we should implant in their minds motives sufficiently strong to induce them to avoid crime altogether. Immediately after the Easter recess, or as soon as possible after the completion of the financial year, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will propose the financial statement or Budget, and that being of course a very important subject, will no doubt lead to a full discussion I have no need therefore, at the present time, to say anything with respect to the measures which my right hon. Friend

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intends to introduce. In the course of a few days the intentions of Her Majesty's Government will be made known in respect of the measures of legal reform, and of the improvement in the sale or transfer of land which it is the intention of the Government to propose. There are other important, measures which will be introduced with respect to Ireland. The House will feel that after the severe distress which Ireland had to undergo a very few years back, and the prolongation of that distress to a very recent period, she is entitled to any measure we can propose which will tend to the greater improvement and industry of that country. It has been already resolved by this House that two Bills relating to the question of landlord and tenant in Ireland should be referred to a Select Committee. I have now to state that it is the intention of the Chief Secretary for Ireland to take his seat in this House in a few days, and that he will propose the nomination of that Committee, placing upon it such Members as have given the most attention to this important subject. We have great hopes by this means of being able to bring-forward a measure which may be of use, and which may diminish, if not prevent, future causes of irritation in that country It is also our intention to bring forward a measure with respect to Ministers' Money. Such arc the measures which Her Majesty's Government at the present time intend to introduce. There is one other subject upon which I have no doubt that I am expected to say something, and respecting which I no doubt shall be asked questions; and it is quite as well that I should now declare what is the intention of the Government in regard to it—I allude to the important subject of the amendment of the Representation of the People of this country in Parliament. My noble Friend at the head of the Government has already stated that amendment in the representation of the people formed part of the measures which it had been in his contemplation, as well as in my own, to introduce; and I have now to beg the attention of the House to the few words which I shall say in reference to the present state of that question. In 1849, in 1850, and in 1851, the Cabinet over which I had the honour to preside considered this question; and early in 1852 I obtained leave from the House of Commons to introduce a Bill on the subject. The Government over which I presided, however, shortly afterwards dissolved, and it has been asserted that I then stated
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that I should introduce a more comprehensive measure than that which I had submitted to Parliament. That statement is utterly unfounded. I never said that I would introduce a measure either more comprehensive or more restricted, or in fact that I would bring in any measure at all. What I did say was, that I was quite ready to reconsider the matter. Now, Sir, the question is, whether it was the duty of the present Government to propose that the various subjects to which I have alluded should be laid aside, and to endeavour to obtain the renewal of the income tax for one year more on its former footing, in order that we might devote our whole time to a measure on the subject of Parliamentary representation. Now, I do not say that it would be impossible in point of time to attend to a measure of this kind, as well as to the others of which I have spoken. It would have required, no doubt, considerable effort in obtaining information, and very continual attention and deliberation on the part of the Government; but, Sir, considering the present state of affairs, and considering the inquiries and deliberations which would have been necessary in order to perfect such a measure, Her Majesty's Government have been of opinion that that subject ought not to be introduced in the present Session of Parliament. In arriving at this conclusion, I think that we have consulted both the public interest and the ultimate success of the measure itself, for I believe that if we had given up all other measures for this purpose, we should neither have well considered what is due to the public welfare nor to public opinion. I believe it would be far better that we should have further information and further deliberation on this important question, and that it would be advantageous to postpone settling it, even for a considerable time, rather than legislate upon it prematurely and without sufficient preparation. It is far more likely that a measure introduced at a future time, with all the information which can be procured on the subject, and with further deliberation, will be such as will settle this important question for a considerable period. At the same time I am far from wishing, and certainly I could not be a party to making the necessity of deliberation or any necessity of inquiry, a pretext for delaying a measure on this subject beyond a certain time. I think, therefore, that immediately upon the commencement of the next Session, the Government ought

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to introduce a measure upon this important question. There is one thing further I wish to say before I resume my seat, and that is, that we have no intention of appointing a Commission of Inquiry, which I am sure would only be transferring to others the responsibility which ought to be entailed upon ourselves. I do not believe that this is a proper subject for inquiry by a Commission, and I think that the Government have it in their own power to procure all the information that they may require. There is but one thing more to which I have to call the attention of the House; and that is with respect to the comments which I am sorry to be compelled to admit have been too justly made in regard to the acts of bribery and corruption which prevailed at the last election. There are no means of Parliamentary representation, however partial and limited—no defect in the distribution of the franchise, however unjust, which is so destructive of public virtue, or of the credit of our representative system, as these acts of bribery and corruption. We are by Select Committees, with respect to many of these cases of alleged bribery and corruption, investigating the truth of the charges. I think it better, therefore, until those investigations shall have been made, and the Committees shall have reported to the House the extent of the evil, to defer giving an opinion as to whether any further measures may be necessary to check bribery and corruption. I will only say, therefore, without pledging myself to any positive measure, that in my opinion the subject is one of the highest importance, and that if any measure should be considered necessary to cure the evil, no effort shall be wanting on my part to effect it.
MR. HAYTERsaid, that it might be convenient if he were to state the days upon which some of the Government measures would be brought forward. He therefore, begged to state that to-morrow the Chancellor of the Exchequer would move for leave to bring in a Bill to authorise advances from the Consolidated Fund to discharge money borrowed for Metropolitan Improvements. On Monday, the 14th, the Lord Advocate would move for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate the procedure in the Sheriffs' Courts in Scotland. On Tuesday, the 15th, the Under Secretary for the Colonies would move for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Legislature of Canada to make provision concerning the clergy reserves. On Friday, the 18th, the First Lord of the Admiralty would
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bring forward the Navy Estimates; and on the 22nd instant the President of the Board of Trade would move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to Pilotage. On the same day the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would move for a Committee of the whole House to take into consideration the civil disabilities affecting the Jews.

BETTING HOUSES—QUESTION.
SIR JAMES DUKEasked if Her Majesty's Government intended to introduce any measure on the subject of betting houses?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONreplied, that the question to which his hon. Friend alluded was one that required great attention, and he feared that there was a good deal of foundation for the opinion that much evil had been produced by betting houses. At the same time, the subject was involved in very great difficulties, and he confessed that he had not yet satisfied his own mind as to any practicable measure that would accomplish the purpose in view, without going beyond the object which was sought to be attained. But it was a subject to which he was still giving his attention.

THE ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS— QUESTION.
MR. BRIGHTbegged to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government intended to introduce any measures for the reform—or, what would be infinitely better, the abolition—of the Ecclesiastical Courts.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that a Commission had been appointed which had had under its consideration the subject of the Ecclesiastical Courts. It was desirable, before proceeding in the matter, to consider the report of that Commission, but the Government did intend to make a proposal on the subject.
The House adjourned at a quarter after Six o'clock.