Commons Sitting of 16 March 1852

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Tyrone County, Lord Claud Hamilton.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Indemnity; Consolidated Fund 8,000,000 l.

VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE.
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORbegged to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he was able to hold out any hopes of relief to the sufferings of the Members from the present state of the ventilation of the House. He did not think that he was
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expressing a sentiment that was likely to create much discussion when he declared that the present condition of the House in respect to ventilation was most scandalous. He hoped that hon. Members would bear with him while he offered a few remarks on a subject which could not be of interest to them all. He did not believe that in all England there was to be found another public edifice in so wretched a condition with regard to ventilation as the House of Commons. Really, if something were not at once done for the relief of the Members in this respect, some fatal result would inevitably follow. Anything like the state of the House on Monday night he had never experienced. He consulted a number of Members in all parts of the House to ascertain whether the feelings of prostration and exhaustion which he had himself experienced were peculiar to himself only, or whether they were of general prevalence; and he found that there was not a Member to whom he applied whose sufferings were not as great, if not greater than his own. Some declared that, on taking their seats in the House, they were conscious of a burning sensation of the most painful description around the head; others said that they felt a swelling in the temples; others that they experienced a kind of nervous fever; and some complained of a terrible sensation, resembling that which distinguishes a fit of apoplexy. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but he would tell them that this was no laughing matter. It was a question of life and death. Finding this dreadful state of things on the floor of the House, he went up into the gallery on the right of Mr. Speaker, in the hope of being able to obtain a little fresh air; but, after being there four or five minutes, the breeze changed into a gale of wind, and came with such violence from the direction of the gallery over the chair, that he was compelled to fly with all precipitation to avoid the consequences of exposure to such a blast. He ran over to the gallery on the left of the chair, in the hope of there obtaining a refuge; but the transition was from the frying-pan into the fire, for so dreadful was the stench in that gallery, and so offensive the escape of carbon and hydrogen, that he had nothing for it but to take up his hat and run out of the House. Another hon. Member also desired to put a question in the same terms, with regard to the Committee rooms, for it was not the House alone, but the lobbies, the Committee rooms, and every part,

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which exposed those passing through or remaining in them to the most serious injury to health. Now, he wished to know how long was this state of things to continue? Was it to see them extinguished, or were they to extinguish it? He had every desire to discharge his duties conscientionsly towards his constituents; but it would be out of the question to expect any Member to do so so long as the House remained in its present condition. Human nature could not endure it. If some effective measure were not at once introduced for the relief of Members in this particular, loss of life would be the inevitable result.
MR. WILSON PATTENwished also to put a question to the First Commissioner of Works upon the same subject. Hon. Members were at the present moment suffering most dreadfully from the state of the Committee rooms in regard to ventilation. He himself sat four days in every week in one Committee room, and the Members of that Committee felt it totally impossible to protect themselves. They had tried all sorts of experiments; they had removed the chairs and tables; they had sat by turns in every part of the room, but still were exposed to the same annoyances. He therefore begged to ask the noble Lord (Lord J. Manners) whether the Committee rooms were included in any directions given to Dr. Reid as to the ventilation of the House?
LORD JOHN MANNERSwas sure his noble Friend (Lord Grosvenor) need not have given any reason for his question, since every hon. Member must have felt equally with himself the necessity of a speedy remedy, if one were possible, to the present bad ventilation of the House. Immediately before the adjournment of the House it would be remembered that a Resolution was passed calling on Dr. Reid to report on the subject. That report, he understood, was completed, and he bad expected to have received it that afternoon, but it had not yet been placed in his hands. His first official act had been to carry into effect the resolution of the House to which he had referred, and to give every facility to Dr. Reid for the prosecution of his inquiries, and for carrying out the remedies which he proposed. He (Lord J. Manners) feared, however, that what had been done could not be said to be in the least degree satisfactory. The hon. and gallant Member for Westminster (Sir De L. Evans) had moved that another professional gentleman, Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney, should be ap-
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pointed to report on the subject, and to suggest a remedy. He (Lord J. Manners) had in consequence given instructions that every access should be given to Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney to every part of the buildings connected with the House of Commons; and so far as he could assist that gentleman he should be most happy so to do. When, however, his noble Friend asked him whether he could hold out any hopes of relief to his and their common sufferings, he was asking a question to which he (Lord J. Manners) could not take upon himself to give an answer. The same remarks applied to the question put by the hon. Member for North Lancashire (Mr. W. Patten). Every inquiry that could be made should be made, and it would rest with the House what course they would take after this was done. It was impossible for any person in his position to answer a question which seemed to baffle the most scientific men; and he should only therefore repeat, that every facility should be afforded for those inquiries which were now in course of prosecution, and which he trusted would have the effect desired.
Subject dropped.

THE CRYSTAL PALACE.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, he had a question to put to the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Works, which related to the rational enjoyment and pleasures of the people. He wished to ask whether it was intended to remove or to retain the building of the Great National Exhibition? He (Mr. T. Duncombe) was to have put this question to the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) about a fortnight since, but in the meantime a little mishap had occurred to the then Government.
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that under the existing arrangements, the contractors were bound to remove the building by the 1st of June next. The House were aware that last year an Address was presented to Her Majesty, praying that an inquiry might be instituted into the expediency of retaining the building in its present position, or removing it to some other site, as a monument of the Exhibition. Commissioners were subsequently appointed, and they sat some time, and received a considerable amount of evidence on the subject of their inquiry. They had since presented their Report, and both the Report and the evidence were now being printed for the use of the House. That Report recommended that the existing ar-

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Commissioners to come to that conclusion appearing to the Government to be amply satisfactory, it was not the intention of Government to propose that the existing arrangements should he interfered with. They were of opinion that that great enterprise which originated with the fine conception of a Prince, and which resulted in affording means of enjoyment, information, and instruction to 4,000,000 of people, did not require a memorial of this nature. They thought that the reasons assigned by the Commissioners for not acceding to any proposition of that nature were conclusive and satisfactory, and therefore the Government had decided not to interfere with the arrangement that would necessitate the removal of the building on the 1st of next June.

CONTRACTS FOR COALS FOR THE NAVY.
MR. G. THOMPSONrose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of the House to certain alleged frauds in the supply of coals by contract to the various Government departments. He disclaimed any desire to prejudge the question, or prematurely to fix a stigma, or even a suspicion, upon any particular parties connected with the supply, or the superintendence of the supply, of coals for the use of the various Dockyards and Government establishments. There was a general impression upon the minds of individuals connected with the coal trade, namely, the coalowners of the north, the coalfactors in the metropolis, and the coalmeters of the city of London, that frauds were committed upon the Government, and he asked for an opportunity of making those inquiries which would show the manner in which the coal contracts were fulfilled. The article of coals constituted an item of vast magnitude in the catalogue of articles supplied by contract for the public service. The expense of this article to the country was very considerable, perhaps not less than 1,000,000 l. annually. All would admit the necessity of watching over this branch of the public expenditure; all would admit the liability there was to the practice of imposition, and the strong temptation offered to dishonest persons to make undue profits from their contracts; all, too, would admit the possibility of inducing subordinate officers to connive at impositions. The House, therefore, would not think it a strange thing that he should ask for an inquiry into so important a subject as that before them. He (Mr. G. Thompson) would state distinctly the na-
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ture of the frauds which were alleged to have taken place in the delivery of coals by contracts to the various depôts of the Government. The charge was that the parties taking in cargoes of coals in the north, delivered these cargoes in London and elsewhere, not under the inspection of meters connected with the Coalmeters' Office, but of the servants of the contractors themselves, under the superintendence of officers connected with the depots where they were delivered. A vessel left the Tyne with a certain amount of coals on board—say, for example, 310 or 315 tons. She reached the place of delivery, and her coals were weighed under the inspection of the servants of the contractor and the officers of the dockyard. Upon delivering the coals it turned out that the vessel that left the Tyne with only 310 or 350 tons of coal on board, obtained a certificate for 350 or 400 tons, and this additional weight the Government paid for out of the monies voted in that House out of the public purse by the representatives of the people. In other cases coals were put on board barges in the river, to be lightered up the stream, and discharged at Somerset House. The fraud in these cases consisted either in the barges discharging more than they had received in the Pool, or in the abstraction from the barges of large quantities of coals, and the delivery, or pretended delivery, afterwards, of the amount specified in the certificate. Frauds of the nature of those described, were, it was gravely alleged, systematically practised; and what he asked was a Committee to take evidence on the subject, with a view of satisfying the public mind on the subject. He believed he was not stating more than the truth when he affirmed that amongst those engaged in the coal trade, whether as shipowners, factors, or office meters connected with the port of London, there was a general impression and belief that frauds of the nature alluded to had been extensively committed, and that the public purse had suffered very greatly in consequence. As he had no other object in view than the promotion of the public interest, no one would be more haypy than himself to find the impression he had alluded to erroneous, and to be able to lay upon the table of the House a Report from the Committee assuring the House and the country that all parties concerned in the execution of coal contracts had done their duty, and that the servants of the Government were perfectly blameless. It would naturally be expected

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of him that he should indicate the nature of the evidence he intended to produce, and the facts which that evidence would tend to determine. Previous to the change in the method of weighing coals—a change which took place about twenty years ago—the Corporation of the City of London appointed meters and regulated the trade. Since that period a Committee, called the Sea-Coal Meters' Committee, had existed, for the purpose of protecting the interests of all parties connected with the coal trade. This Committee was appointed, jointly, by the coalowners of the north, and the factors resident in London. They had an office at the Coal Exchange, called the Coalmeters' Office; and in connexion with it was a body of respectable men, called coalmeters, charged with the duty of superintending the delivery of coals from vessels in the Pool and elsewhere, within the jurisdiction of the city and port of London. Now, these office coalmeters not only gave a certificate of the amount of coals actually weighed out of a vessel, but supplied to the Coalmeters' Office a counterpart of the certificate; so that it was possible to obtain a correct account, for a series of years, of the amounts deliver d from any particular vessel bringing her coals to the port of London. It was alleged that certain vessels which, when weighed by coalmeters for the trade, had never delivered more than a given amount, had, when weighed at Government depôts, by the servants of contractors and other persons not connected with the Coalmeters' Office, obtained certificates for twenty, thirty, and forty tons more than their average cargoes. Here, then, to go no further, was a tangible subject for inquiry, and a simple mode of thus ascertaining whether the Government had been imposed upon, and the public purse robbed. But not only did the coalmeters' certificate afford the means of ascertaining the fact of fraud, but there was also the amount of duty paid to the City, which, in the case of coals delivered for the Government, would, it was alleged, be found to have been paid upon a much smaller quantity of coals than that paid for by the Government to the contractor. He (Mr. G. Thompson) would illustrate this part of the subject by a reference to the delivery of four ships. The first of these, when fairly
weighed, averaged, during 20 years, 390 tons; but when delivered for Government 450 tons. The second, when fairly weighed, 340 tons; but
when delivering for Government 400 tons.
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The third, when fairly weighed, averaged 285 tons; but when delivering for Government 310 tons. The fourth, when fairly weighed, 305 tons; but when
weighed for Government 340. These cases were only four out of a great number which it would be in his power to bring before a Committee; but he was willing to rest his case for inquiry upon them. Within the last three days the following facts had been communicated by the captain of a collier. He stated that he carried a cargo of coals to Plymouth to be discharged into a Government hulk; that the average cargo of the vessel was 315 to 320 tons; that on this occasion she discharged 40 tons more than the average, and that having done so, and being afraid of awakening suspicion, the delivery ceased, while there remained 10 tons in the vessel; that on this occasion it was a convict who acted as weigher under the superintendence of an officer of the Government, and a servant of the contractor. He would say no more on this branch of the subject further than that he had a long list of ships and of witnesses, and would be prepared to furnish to the Committee the fullest opportunity of ascertaining the truth of every allegation of fraud. He would now mention the alleged frauds at Somerset House. The coals delivered there were taken up the river in barges, with certificates of the amount of coals in each barge. These certificates should be in existence, and it was the duty of persons at that office to see that the coals delivered corresponded with the certificates. But it was alleged that extensive frauds had been committed—that the men employed in discharging the barges had practised what was technically called light labour, that is, had carried less than the proper weight, which was one cwt. and a half, and that so the amount had been increased. This allegation the Committee would also have the means of investigating. It was alleged that the certificates had been destroyed. This could at once be ascertained, and if any were missing they could call for the coalmeters' books, and compare the actua amounts in the barges with the amounts charged to the Government and paid for. He was aware that these matters had been brought under the notice of the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and that the Solicitor to the Admiralty had been instructed to prosecute an inquiry. He was also aware that a number of witnesses had been examined, and their evidence taken down; but he was not aware of the nature of the

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report made by the solicitor, or of the proceedings which the Admiralty Board had adopted thereupon. He could not sit down without expressing his conviction that the public were under deep obligations to a gentleman of the name of Upton, connected with the Coalwhippers' Office, for the zeal and perseverance he had displayed in the collection of evidence on the subject now before the House. That gentleman had placed in his hands the highest testimonials as to character; and he (Mr. G. Thompson) believed he had been prompted throughout by a sincere desire to promote the best interests of the public. He would now move for a Committee of Inquiry, in the full belief that the House would deem the matter worthy of a serious and impartial investigation.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into certain alleged frauds in the supply of Coals by contract to Her Majesty's Dockyards and Public Offices."
MR. HUME, in seconding the Motion, said it had come to his knowledge that there was an intolerable nuisance in the management of the department alluded to. He had pressed the inquiry on the late Government, but they had not acceded to it. He hoped it would take place without delay.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, he had no doubt the inquiry, if instituted, might result in proving, not only that the meters connected with the Admiralty were wholly blameless, but that they were highly efficient. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. G. Thompson) had misled the House by the terms of his Motion. It embraced all the twenty dockyards and stations where coals were received, and was not limited as to time. But the hon. Gentleman in his speech had principally referred to the dockyard at Plymouth; and probably the evidence he had to lay before the Committee was restricted in like manner. It was easy to show that the machinery for the inspection of the delivery of coals at the dockyards was most effective. The hon. Gentleman had given no names, alleging that he would reserve them for the Committee; but this was not the way to make out a case for inquiry. Let the hon. Gentleman make a specific charge, and then it could be met by a specific answer. It was impossible to answer charges so vaguely made as those referring to a certain ship; and they were not entitled to any consideration from the House. The hon. Gentleman said he had had much in-
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formation from a coaldealer in the city. He had so, and his name was Upton. He (Mr. Stafford) had no hesitation in naming him. He had complained to the Admiralty of the delivery of coals at Woolwich; the solicitor caused inquiry to be made, and though Mr. Upton's statements were found to be somewhat exaggerated, enough was discovered to cause the suspicion of fraud. Arrangements had now been made by Commodore Eden to have a sworn coalmeter to superintend the delivery, so that fraud was now impossible. The hon. Gentleman ought in fairness to have stated this. The inquiry, if gone into, would be a long and tedious one; and if confined to some dockyards only, would be partial and incomplete. It would also tend to protract the duration of the Session; and he put it to the hon. Gentleman whether there would be any advantage in pursuing the inquiry further.
Motion by leave, withdrawn.

POSTAGE LABEL STAMPS.
MR. MUNTZsaid, he rose to move for a Committee to inquire into the agreement entered into between the Commissioners of Inland Revenue and the patentee of the machine for perforating the sheets of postage labels. In the year 1847 a Mr. Archer discovered and patented an invention for perforating the interstices of postage stamps, which did away with the use of a knife or scissors in separating them, and offered his invention to the Post Office, the Commissioners of Stamps, and the Board of Inland Revenue, asking no remuneration except that which might be contingent upon the admitted utility of his invention. The Commissioners of Stamps and of Inland Revenue agreed to remunerate him accordingly; and, after he had succeeded to his most sanguine expectations, they offered him a mere bagatelle for the invention. This, of course, he declined, and ultimately 1,000 l. was offered, and then 2,000 l.; but as these offers were altogether disproportionate to the expenditure Mr. Archer had made, or the value which the public would derive from the machine, Mr. Archer declined to accept them, but told the Commissioners that, if they would give him the contract for manufacturing and gumming the postage stamps, he would guarantee to do it for 2,000 l. less than the existing contract, and perforate the stamps gratis. No sooner had this proposition been made, than the Commissioners communicated with the other

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contractors, and asked them what they were prepared to do. They replied that no one could make the stamps so well or so cheaply as they could, but that rather than lose the Government contract, they would consent to take 1,000 l. a year off the contract price. The Commissioners closed with this offer, and thus the public lost at once 1,000 l. per annum, and also the use of the invention which the patentee had carried out so successfully. This was conduct which, if it had occurred between individuals in private life, would have caused the party so acting to be scouted from society. All that Mr. Archer wanted was inquiry into the merits of his case; and if that inquiry was granted, he was convinced that it would redound to the advantage of the public.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a Select Committee be appointee], to inquire and report upon the Agreement entered into between the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, and the Patentee, relative to the construction of the Machine for perforating the sheets of Postage Labels, and whether it would be desirable to carry out the principle for general use."
MR. GROGANsaid, he had also given notice of a Motion on the same subject, and as it would extend the inquiry somewhat further than the Motion of the hon. Member for Birmingham, he should move it as an Amendment to that Motion.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out from the words 'upon the' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, 'present mode of engraving, printing, and gumming the Postage Label Stamps; and likewise whether; and how the perforating machine, invented by the Patentee, could be applied to the same with advantage to the Public,' instead thereof."
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, it was quite true that in the year 1847, the patentee, Mr. Archer, did submit a plan for perforating stamps, which was likely to be attended with considerable advantage to the public; but he expressly stated that with respect to compensation, he should be perfectly satisfied that that should be contingent upon the complete success of the plan, or when it should have received the unqualified approbation of the public, the Postmaster General, and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. Government could not assent to the terms of the Motion of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz), because it assumed the existence of an agreement, which the Government
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denied. As to the Amendment of the hon. Member for the City of Dublin, there could be no objection to that, and he believed the introduction of perforated stamps was calculated to benefit the public. There were considerable inconveniences attending the postage stamps as at present used, and perforated stamps might be used with advantage. The Government was, therefore, quite willing to grant a Committee in the terms of the Amendment, but not in the terms of the Motion, which presumed there had been this agreement with the previous Government.
Mr. MOWATTsaid, the grievance had not originated since the present Ministers came into office, and, probably, they had not had time to inquire into the case. The patentee had offered to print and deliver postage stamps, of a different description to those now in use, whereby a saving would be effected to the country to the amount of 2,000 l. a year. He hoped the inquiry would be made to embrace something more than the hon. Secretary proposed, and that he would include the conduct of the officials who had taken advantage of the offer made by the individual, to get the work performed by the contractors at a cheaper rate. They encouraged an individual to state specifically the terms on which he would undertake the work; and when he did so, and superadded the proposal that he would also perforate the stamps for the same sum, they availed themselves of that confidential information for the purpose of getting the contractors to lower their terms from 6d. to 5d. per thousand. This conduct, he contended, was altogether unjustifiable, and calculated to lower public confidence in the good faith and integrity of public boards, and that it was calculated to strike at the root of the entire contract system. He hoped, therefore, the inquiry would be extended to this part of the subject.
MR. GEACHhoped the hon. Gentleman (Mr. G. A. Hamilton) would allow the Committee to be granted in the wider terms. If persons were to be treated as Mr. Archer was treated in the present case by a public board, men would have no fair play in introducing improvements for the public benefit. It was not often that they could get so good a case, for public boards did not usually leave themselves so exposed.
MR. SPOONERdid not see that there was any question for discussion before the House, seeing his hon. Friend (Mr. Hamilton) had consented to a Committee in the

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terms proposed by the hon. Member for the city of Dublin.
MR. HENRY DRUMMONDsaid, the hon. Secretary for the Treasury had not agreed to the first Motion, and the essential facts of the case were never touched by him. He had reason to believe that the practice complained of was by no means uncommon.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONhad agreed to the proposal of his hon. Friend (Mr. Grogan), which was more extensive than that of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz), and his desire was, that the fullest inquiry should take place.
MR. MUNTZsaid that, on the understanding that the Committee would go fully into the whole question, he was quite willing to withdraw his own Motion, and allow of the adoption of the Amendment of the hon. Member for the city of Dublin.
Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn
Select Committee appointed, "to inquire and report upon the present mode of engraving, printing, and gumming the Postage Label Stamps; and likewise whether and how the perforating machine, invented by the Patentee, could be applied to the same with advantage to the Public."

RAILWAY FROM OBAN TO GLASGOW.
MR. JOHN STUARTrose to move a resolution as to the expediency of assistance being afforded by Parliament and the Government to facilitate the intercourse and traffic between the Western Highlands and the southern parts of the Kingdom. He would remind the House that last year the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had consented to a grant of public money to be employed in the relief of an extensive and populous district of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland by facilitating emigration. The benevolent intentions of the late Government had, however, from peculiar circumstances, failed, and hence the application he now made. His object was, by a judicious application of public money—not in the shape of an eleemosynary grant, but an advance to complete a public work, which would amply repay the expenditure—to develop the resources of a district the inhabitants of which, from their remote situation, were unable to apply their industry with due advantage to themselves and the rest of the empire. The nature of the work proposed was the construction of a railway to communicate between Glasgow
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and the whole system of railways in the southern part of the Kingdom, and the port of Oban, in the most central and convenient part of the western coast of the Highlands of Scotland. By the construction of that railway the whole of the western part of Scotland, from Cape Wrath to the southern part of Argyllshire, and the whole of the Western Isles, comprising in the islands alone 100,000 inhabitants, would have its traffic, after being brought to Oban, conveyed thence to all parts of the Empire. By this means the present long and dangerous navigation would be superseded, and a great benefit conferred upon the district. The Glasgow Chamber of Commerce, very disinterested witnesses, addressed a memorial to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject, in which it was stated that—
"It would be difficult to conceive a more legitimate application of public money than towards the completion of this desirable undertaking, namely, a railway from Glasgow to Oban; and from the memorialists' local knowledge they feel satisfied that the formation of the intended railway would have a most beneficial and permanent effect on the well-being of the Highlands of Scotland, the resources of which are now lying dormant from want of frequent and speedy access to the southern markets."
The condition of the people of this district was now most deplorable, and deserving of sympathy, and it was strongly felt by the proprietors and others that if its resources were developed they would not require to apply to Parliament for aid. Last summer Sir John M'Neill made minute inquiry into the condition of the people of the Western Highlands and Islands, and in the report published by him it was stated as the opinion of the principal proprietors and others competent to judge, that there was an absolute necessity for measures being taken to afford immediate relief to the suffering inhabitants, and ultimately to assist them in the way of emigration. The first of these recommendations was stated to be indispensable, and the latter necessary to put an end to the lamentable and humiliating state of things that rendered necessary such repeated appeals for public aid. Now, his object was to redeem that part of the county from this humiliating position, by constructing a railway of eighty miles through the district. He begged, therefore, to direct the attention of the Government to a mode of relief involving no outlay of public money without sufficient security, and calculated to produce the greatest advantages. The development of the re-

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sources of remote districts by facilitating communications was a system which had been to a certain extent adopted with respect to the very country of which he was now speaking, as evidenced by the military roads constructed in the Highlands of Scotland. The country at that time was remote from civilisation, and in a turbulent and disturbed state; but now it presented no appearance of turbulence, and a people more patient and silent in the midst of starvation never existed. The principle on which he asked the Government to act had been recognised by the proceedings of Parliament above a century ago, when military roads were constructed in Scotland, under the superintendence of General Wade; but, in the present day, they must bear in mind that if they would carry out that principle, which had before been acted upon with success, it was no longer by means of ordinary roads that traffic was to be conducted. A system of railway communication must be introduced. The House had already extended its assistance to Scotch railways, but not to any connected with the Western Highlands or the Islands. In 1847, when Lord George Bentinck brought before the House his wise and benevolent measure for improving Ireland, by applying public money to the construction of railways in that country, he (Mr. J. Stuart) remembered that the noble Lord, in order to show that such an investment would not only improve the condition of the country, but also be safe, referred to the railway from Arbroath to a neighbouring district, which could not have been constructed without public money, and which within a few years entirely repaid the advance. This principle had also been extended, with safety to the public, to other parts of Scotland less requiring assistance than the district in behalf of which he now spoke. Again, in regard to the Dublin and Kingstown Railway—of the greatest importance to the resources of Ireland—public money had been advanced, and every farthing repaid. Though Lord George Bentinck's proposal with respect to Ireland failed, yet he need not remind the House that the Government, who voted against it, before the end of the Session were obliged to act on the principle themselves, and an Act of Parliament was passed empowering the Treasury to charge the Consolidated Fund to the amount of 620,000 l. to facilitate the construction of three Irish railways; and no less a sum than 480,000 l. was advanced towards the Midland and Great Western Railway of Ireland alone.
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The Earl of Clarendon, the late Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, a few months ago, while assisting at the festival by which the opening of the Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland, which was one of those three lines, had been celebrated, congratulated himself on the aid he had been able to give to the promoters of the undertaking, and expressed his satisfaction at its perfect success. No one could doubt that the money was wisely laid out, and had contributed to the development of the resources of the country. He found that the principle of advancing public money for public works was carried, under grants, some annual, some by special Acts of Parliament, to an enormous extent. A Parliamentary return of last Session, relative to the expenditure on public works, showed that there had been expended, during the period comprehended within the return, for Great Britain, 8,041,000 l., and for Ireland, 2,450,000 l., making a total of 10,491,000 l. Yet upon the Islands of Scotland—a district with undeveloped resources—not one farthing of this public money had been expended. A stronger claim for the Western Islands was made out by the tact that a great deal of the money he had just mentioned had been expended for the construction of railways—no less than 973,000 l. in Ireland, the greater part of which had been returned, and the whole of which would, no doubt, be ultimately repaid. In 1846 the House passed an Act the object of which was to facilitate the construction of a railway from Oban in communication with Glasgow; but that Act contemplated an incomplete communication, because the railway was not to be extended through the whole distance, but only forty-five or forty-six miles from Oban to the head of Loch Lomond (an inland sea about twenty-four miles in length), along which it was proposed to carry the traffic by steamboat. He needed not to say that this was a defective proposal, and failed. It was computed that the cost of these forty-five miles of railway would have been 265,000 l.; but what was wanted was an undertaking that would require an outlay of nearly 500,000 l., and that sum was beyond the resources of the Western Highlands. What was within their resources was the scheme of proportion adopted in other cases, whereby they would provide two-fifths, if the other three-fifths were advanced by the Government as a loan on the security of the undertaking. Considering some of

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the grants made for the completion of other undertakings, this appeared to him to be a modest demand on the part of this wide and populous district. He pressed this matter on the attention of the House, because he had been waited on during the last vacation by a number of proprietors and occupiers of land in the Western Highlands, who represented that the assistance he now asked from the Government would be more effectual than public charity or grants for emigration. They stated that they were content to have the case considered simply according to its merits, and they would be ready to abide by the result; and, with a view to obtain that fair consideration, he now solicited the House to accede to the resolution which he had placed on the paper. He did not, however, press for a hasty decision, nor ask the House at once to pledge itself to a grant of public money without being fully satisfied of its propriety. Let it be ascertained by an engineer, or some other man of skill appointed by authority—and this might be done at a very trifling outlay—whether the representations made in the memorials addressed to the Government on this subject were true or not, and consequently, he should be content, in moving his resolution, to let the consideration of it stand over until the Government were satisfied that they could reasonably entertain the proposition. Never was there a people better entitled to the favourable consideration of the House than the inhabitants of the Western Highlands and Isles. They were never troublesome, and, though poor, this remarkable fact was mentioned in the report of Sir John M'Neill, that from the Isle of Skye a revenue of 10,000 l. a year was derived from one article alone. Yet this district, poor as it was, had had little or nothing done for it by the Government. Hon. Members might have seen a list of individuals who had risen to high rank in the Army and Navy, the sons of tenant-farmers from one island of the Hebrides, and he ventured to notice that circumstance, because he was most anxious to recommend this matter to the attention of the House.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That it is expedient that assistance be afforded by Parliament and the Government, to facilitate the intercourse and traffic between the Western Highlands and Isles and the southern parts of the Kingdom, by the construction of a Railway from the town and harbour of Oban, in Argyllshire, to Glasgow."
MR. MACGREGORsaid, that in principle he was certainly opposed to granting public money for the purpose of constructing any public works whatever; but he thought there were circumstances connected with the Western Islands of Scotland which, if fairly and impartially considered, ought to attract a large share of the attention of that House and of the country. They found, that whenever money was required for Ireland, weighty interests were brought to bear in order to procure the grant that was asked for. Ireland had not only Her Majesty's representative, the Lord Lieutenant, but also a Secretary of State, to represent the real or alleged grievances and wants of that country. He did not complain of that country being unduly favoured, because it had been for along time unduly oppressed. But Scotland, on the other hand, was never properly represented in the Government, and rarely obtained any assistance from the public purse. There is a Lord Advocate, it is true, who is supposed to attend to Scottish affairs; but while he is an advocate at the bar of Scotland, he passes a great part of the time in the Courts of the Parliament House at Edinburgh, which, in justice to Scotland, he should pass in the House of Commons. And yet three-fourths of the whole revenue collected in Scotland went into the Treasury of Great Britain, and one-fourth was found to be sufficient to pay for the whole military and civil expenditure of that portion of the Kingdom, including the expense of collecting the revenue. With respect to the particular case pointed out by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newark, he (Mr. Macgregor) believed that Government might with great safety make an advance upon that undertaking. It was one to which the landlords in the west of Scotland would all contribute as far as possible; and he believed that the passenger traffic of the railway, if once completed, would, especially in the summer and autumn seasons, be as great as that of the London and Brighton Railroad. The industry of the Western Highlands would be greatly increased by the opening of such a line, communicating with Glasgow, and consequently with all the other large towns in the Kingdom. He, therefore, begged to support the Motion of his hon. and learned Friend, as he thought that the subject was one well worthy of the consideration of the Government. At the same time he would not give his un-

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qualified assent to the proposition of his hon. and learned Friend until the whole plan should he laid before the House.
SIR GEORGE STRICKLANDsaid, the resolution of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. J. Stuart) appeared to him to mean this—that a railroad to the extent of eighty miles was to be made from Oban to Glasgow, but that it would cost so much money that it would not pay any private undertakers to do it, therefore it ought to be paid for out of the public purse. It was to protest against that pinciple that he rose. They might tell him that private property in the Highlands of Scotland would be greatly improved by the expenditure, but they must show him how it was justifiable so to apply the public money. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated that in a short time not less than 10,000,000 l. had been paid out of the public purse to advance private interests. [Mr. J. STUART: NO!] He (Sir G. Strickland) supposed the advance was for railroads or draining. Now, to that system he objected. He possessed private property, and he should think it was totally unjustifiable to ask for an advance of public money for such a purpose. It might be said that the money was secured by-mortgage, to be repaid in a certain number of years; but what was that to him? He might live only ten years, and the money might not be repaid for thirty or forty years. Lord George Bentinck had asked for a large sum of money for railroads in Ireland, and if ever a country deserved a grant of public money to advance the national interests, it was Ireland; but the House had had the honesty to resist so false a principle, and he hoped the House would do the same in this instance.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Newark that he has not mistaken the feeling of the House and of the country, when he says there is considerable sympathy with the people of the Western Highlands of Scotland; and, if I saw that there was any means by which advantages could be secured to that part of Her Majesty's dominions, I would be the last to throw any obstacle in the way of such a proposition. But when we consider the question upon which my hon. and learned Friend has spoken—a question raised by a gentleman connected with that part of the United Kingdom, and who, from that circumstance, as well as from the position
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he holds in this House, is entitled to the highest consideration—and compare that question with the facts adduced, I am bound to say he has not established that position which, in setting out, he promised he would do. I do not approach the subject with any prejudice. I do not acknowledge the principle that the State should never assist private persons for the promotion of great and useful works; nor, notwithstanding what has been said, can I think the country has suffered by these advances. I cannot agree with what has fallen from the hon. Baronet (Sir G. Strickland). That hon. Member seemed to have forgotten that the repayment of the money advanced under the Drainage Act was secured by a charge upon the land, and that the country received ample interest for the advance. I could go a step further, and point out instances where loans similar to that proposed might be attended with great advantage. I am perfectly aware of that; but, at the same time, great caution must be used in making such advances, and they must never be applied unless under certain conditions. With such precautions, I repeat, there may be instances in which such advances would not only be expedient, but may be justified upon principles of science. I will not now stop to enter at any length into the discussion of the celebrated proposition once made in this House—made by one whose loss I shall always deplore. But that was not to be looked upon as a mere statistical proposition; it was a proposal, brought forward in a moment of great emergency, by Lord George Bentinck, to relieve a country under circumstances entirely exceptional. But, even if we take that celebrated measure, to which, right or wrong, I gave my warm and sincere support to my lamented Friend, that scheme was different, in many important features, from that of my hon. and learned Friend on the present occasion. In the case of the Irish railway scheme, put forward by Lord George Bentinck, a large advance of public money was, it is true, proposed; but there was this important condition annexed, that, in all such advances by the Government, there should be previsiously a considerable outlay of private capital. One third of the capital, if I remewber rightly, was to be laid out before the State made any loan. I cannot ascertain that in the case now put before the House, either from the speech of my hon. and learned Friend, or from the me-

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morial that has been officially presented to me in the course of the day, that there has been any previous outlay whatever, nor any existing guarantee that the public money should be repaid. The House is now really asked to make a grant of the public money for the purpose of constructing a railway—
MR. JOHN STUART: The proposition made as to this railway was, that there should be an outlay of two-fifths before one farthing was asked from the Government.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: When the proprietary have laid out two-fifths of the capital, they will be in a position to come to this House and state their case. I cannot say that I can recommend the grant sought for upon an hypothetical investment of money by certain persons in certain parts of the kingdom. If there had been a considerable outlay of capital—if the work had been one of great magnitude—and if a fair prospect of remuneration offered—these are circumstances under which it is possible the Government would be justified in coming forward; but in this case no money has been expended. It is avowed that nothing has been done, and I believe that even a survey has not been made. The hon. Member for Glasgow said that there were no maps or plans—
MR. MACGREGORbegged to say that he had not stated any such thing, for an actual survey had been made, and what he wished the Government to do was to complete the survey of that part of the line of railway not contemplated at the time of the former survey.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I always listen with pleasure to the statements of the hon. Member for Glagow, and it is possible it may have been his intention so to represent himself, but, at all events, it is usual in these cases that there should he a complete survey of the whole line along which the railway was to pass before any advance of public money is made by Parliament. I must repeat, that if I saw any proposition which I could fairly believe would advance the interests of the suffering community, I would receive it with the greatest consideration; but I cannot look upon the present proposal as having any such tendency. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macgregor), from his official experience, must be aware of the fact that there is an
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annual Vote by Parliament legitimately applicable to undertakings of this character. The Loan Commissioners under the Public Works have a fund which may be thus applied if the security is legitimate, and the object a proper one. If the scheme for making the railroad from Glasgow to Oban be as important as the hon. Member states—if it be of the character which my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. J. Stuart) states—if that be so, and if they put themselves in a legitimate position, and apply to the Loan Commissioners of Public Works, I have no doubt but that they will receive that very assistance which they now ask by means of a grant of the House of Commons. I have no doubt but the construction of a railway in this district would be useful, but the House of Commons must have regard to general principles, which must not be lightly departed from. It gives me pain to oppose any proposal emanating from my hon. and learned Friend. I can only say that I will receive any memorial from the projectors of this railway, and give it every consideration in my power. I believe if the project be carried into effect it would be productive of beneficial results, and whatever machinery may be at the command of the Government will be cheerfully placed at their disposal.
MR. ELLISsaid, he was not connected with any railroad in that part of the United Kingdom to which this proposition referred, but he conceived it was the duty of the Government to assist such a district as he believed that to be through which this railroad would run, in order to develop the resources of the country, and he thought that in no way could those resources be so effectually developed as by the construction of railways.
SIR ARCHIBALD CAMPBELLthought the grant asked for was not to benefit private proprietors. Some proprietors would undoubtedly benefit by it, if made; but the greatest benefit would accrue, not only to the particular district through which the railway was to pass, but to all the contiguous districts. He thought the objections, therefore, fell to the ground.
MR. HUMEsaid, that this was one of those cases which were so often brought before Parliament, but which were extremely difficult for a Government to deal with. It was easy to ask for public money, and difficult to resist the application when a case of distress was made out. Some years ago there was a very great amount

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of distress in the Highlands of Scotland, and he had hoped that it would have been alleviated, if not entirely removed, by this time. As regarded the islands, nothing but emigration could afford permanent relief. He, at one time, felt inclined to advocate the grant of a sum of public money hi order to assist in removing them, their distress having in a great measure been occasioned by the change in our fiscal arrangements. He did not think a fixed rule should be laid down that public money ought never to be advanced, but at the same time he did not think the present case was one calling for assistance from the public funds. He did see how the proposed railway could benefit the islands; and, with regard to the prospects of its being a paying concern, he had the greatest possible doubts. The canal, which was made some years ago, from Oban to Glasgow, had been undertaken by the Government because its original promoters—the country gentlemen of the district—had failed to complete it, and because the Government wished to relieve the district from great distress. The canal was not profitable, and he could not discover what advantage would be derived from a railway. There was no traffic to support it. He should certainly advise the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make further inquiry, before recommending the grant of any sum by the Exchequer Loan Commissioners. The rules did not allow any sum to be advanced, except where the sum so advanced was likely to prove productive.
MR. TRELAWNYwas totally opposed to all grants of this nature from the public funds; and he could not understand how any free-trader could support them, for they involved the worst features of a system of protection, which consisted in affording artificial encouragement to enterprises that ought to be left to depend on self-support. If, however, the principle was not objectionable, and the Government had plenty of loose cash at its disposal, he thought there were many public works more deserving of the assistance of the State than any railway scheme for the Highlands of Scotland. He did not recommend the outlay of public money in such undertakings, but he might cite as an example that a railway along the south coast of England, from Portsmouth to Plymouth, had a stronger claim on the attention of the House than the present proposition, from its connection with the now
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much talked of subject of the defences of the country.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, it was plain from the blue books on this subject, that the people of the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland were suffering under great distress, and that it was impossible for unaided private enterprise to afford them effectual relief. The proprietors of the district had already made the most laudable efforts to support the population, and, therefore, without inquiring whether the particular scheme of railway now proposed was the best that could be devised for the district, he was ready to advocate the advance of money suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Stuart) from the public funds.
MR. BOOKERsaid, it appeared to him that the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had overlooked one very important consideration—namely, that there was extreme distress existing in the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland. He did think that it was an object of the first consideration with a parental Government to afford profitable industrial employment to the people, without the necessity of their transporting themselves from the shores of their native country. He thought the hon. and learned Member for Newark was entitled to the best thanks of the House for the able and lucid statement he had put before them. As to the want of traffic on the contemplated line, experience showed that a railway, once constructed, created traffic. He himself knew an instance of a line which had been formed in a mountainous district, where previously the passenger traffic had scarcely employed a single coach, yet, since the formation of the railway, the passenger traffic had risen in amount to 15,000 l. per annum. He should like to have the assurance of the Government that they would be prepared to consider the matter in the event of the parties themselves raising a portion of the capital. He understood the inhabitants had offered to defray two-fifths of the expenses of the preliminary survey.
MR. F. SCOTTsaid, he had also hoped that the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer would have afforded more countenance than he had done to this scheme, because he thought the case brought forward by the hon. and learned Member for Newark a very peculiar one, not only with regard to the extent of the distress Which prevailed among the Highland population, but also with regard to the extent of the

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country whose resources would be developed by the projected railway. He thought the case had not been properly considered by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had himself thrown out some suggestions showing that the subject required further elucidation; and for that reason he would now move that the debate be adjourned till that day fortnight.
MR. BOOKERseconded the Amendment.
MR. P. HOWARDregarded the establishment of lines of communication between the extreme points of a country as of great importance, both in a military and commercial point of view. Every one must feel anxious that this interesting population should not be compelled to fly their native shores; but he suggested whether the hon. and learned Gentlemen (Mr. J. Stuart) would not best advance his case by laying a more matured plan before the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer. He believed that it would be quite impossible to raise local subscriptions without there was a promise of ulterior assistance from the Government; but with that he thought that an advance of public money might prove of national as well as local benefit.
Debate adjourned till Tuesday, 30th March.

OUTRAGES (IRELAND).
MR. NAPIERbegged to move the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the state of those parts of the counties of Armagh, Monaghan, and Louth, which were referred to in Her Majesty's Speech; into the immediate cause of crime and outrage in those districts; and into the efficiency of the laws, and of their administration, for the suppression of such crime and outrage. The Motion he was about to submit to the House was substantially the same as that he had attempted to move before the recent change in the Government of the country. On the first night of the Session he had drawn attention to the state of a portion of the north of Ireland as referred to in Her Majesty's Speech; but the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) intimated to him that inasmuch as the Special Commission was then proceeding, and had not concluded its labours, it was premature to bring forward any Motion on the subject. The noble Lord was quite right, and he did not, therefore, press any Motion. After the Special Commission had terminated its
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labours, he (Mr. Napier) gave notice for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the causes of the insecurity of life and property in Ireland; but the right hon. Gentleman the then Secretary of State for the Home Department put upon the paper an Amendment in the terms which he had now adopted in his present Motion, finding, on looking at that Amendment, that there was no real difference between them. The right hon. Gentleman agreed with him about its propriety, and as there was nothing but a verbal difference in the terms of the Motion, the right hon. Gentleman, with that courtesy for which he was distinguished, left the matter in his (Mr. Napier's) hands, stating that he would offer no opposition to it. The question was one of very deep interest to all parts of Ireland, and he thought it was one that might well claim the attention of that House, because nothing was of greater importance to the social prosperity and advancement of Ireland than the security of life and property, which, however they might differ on matters of particular policy, must be at the basis and form the substratum of all good government and civilisation; and nothing was of more importance than to make the administration of the law good and efficient, and to uphold the security of life and property. The Speech from the Throne had adverted to the state of those districts, and he thought he should be enabled to lay before the House such clear and unambiguous evidence as to the startling state of certain portions of the country, that it would lead the House to pause and consider in what way they might, in a fair and constitutional manner, remove those causes, and remedy a state of things which was at variance with their prosperity—at variance with the introduction of capital—at variance with industrial employment, and with everything that could be of value to either the owners or occupiers of land in that part of the country. In the course of the last year the grand jury of the county of Louth, through the noble Lord, their foreman, addressed a memorial to the Earl of Clarendon, then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, calling attention to the system of organised crime which it was alleged demanded some earnest and searching system of investigation. The memorial suggested the sending down of experienced police officers to obtain a knowledge of the Ribband system; and various other suggestions were also made. He had afterwards got a return of the state of crime in, the

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county of Louth alone, during a period of two years, selecting only those cases which were connected with the Ribband system. It was to that return he wished to call the particular attention of the House. They were the acts of a great confederation, which, if not put down by the law, would put the law down, and therefore this was a conflict with an organised conspiracy against life and property of the most startling description. The return for the county of Louth embraced from the 20th April, 1849, to the 29th December 1851, and contained twenty-three cases: they were all separate crimes of Ribband conspiracy, and included murder, shooting with intent to murder, waylaying, threatening notices, acting as members of the Ribband system, administering unlawful oaths, arson, the prevention of prosecutions for crime. Of these twenty-three cases there had only been in five instances convictions, and in all the others, the law as yet had not been able to overtake the criminals. Shortly before the meeting of the present Parliament a Special Commission was sent to Monaghan, and that Special Commission was pending at the time the present Session commenced. That Special Commission had been issued on the part of the Government, and showed clearly its consciousness of the peculiar state of criminality that prevailed in the district, and its readiness at that time to lend the powers of the law for the suppression of crime and outrage. That Commission was conducted with the greatest impartiality and ability. It would be improper to refer to anything which had occurred on that Commission, lest it might prejudice parties whose cases had still to be tried. His right hon. and learned Friend the late Attorney General, with the Solicitor General, for Ireland, attended upon that Commission, and he was bound to say that they had conducted the case with great ability; but the fact was, that no convictions were obtained, no attempt was made to try the parties since, and the cases which were left untried had been removed by certiorari to the Court of Queen's Bench, where they remained until sent down to be tried on the record side of the Court, where, by the present state of the law, there was the power of obtaining a better class of jurors. And here he begged to say, that he did not mean to suggest any imputation against the jurors on the Special Commission, but merely to mention the facts as they stood. Upon the occa-
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sion of that Special Commission the eminent Judge who then presided, and who was now Lord Chancellor of Ireland (with whose concurrence he begged to say he now brought forward this Motion), in his charge to the jury said—
"It is but too true that a large portion of this, and of the adjoining counties of Louth and Armagh, are prevaded by a mischievous, most mischievous association; that Ribbandism, which is the name under which this association exists, prevails in all its horror and all its terror within that fated district.' He then referred, in connexion with Mr. Bateson's murder, to the assurance of protection and connivance which is secured for the murderer by the power of the Ribband confederacy, 'the severest scourge of the land.' Firstly, the sacrifice of life and injury to property; secondly, obstructing all improvement, repelling capital, and cutting of the sources of employment and industry. He then referred to the responsibility of those who extenuate the crime by speeches and publications."
He had a highly important document in his possession, which was submitted to the right hon. Baronet the late Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir G. Grey),namely, a memorial which was signed by 126 magistrates of the three counties, including three lords lieutenants, the county Members, and twenty four deputy lieutenants. The memorialists, in fact, comprised nearly the entire body of the magistrates of the three counties, whose description of the state of matters there, founded upon an intimate local knowledge of those counties, corresponded with the accurate judicial statement of the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland. The memorial was as follows:—
"TO THE RIGHT HON. SIR GEORGE GRET, ETC.
"The Memorial of the undersigned Magistrates of the Counties of Armagh, Louth, and Monaghan,
"Showeth—That a district containing portions of the abovementioned counties has for some time past been in a disturbed and lawless state.
"That a succession of murders, attempts to murder, assaults, burning of houses, acts of intimidation, &c., have taken place within it, all marked with the same agrarian character, and evidently proceeding from the same secret conspiracy.
"That this secret association possesses the sympathy of many, and has overawed the whole of the population to such an extent that evidence of the most atrocious murders perpetrated in open day can hardly be obtained, and that jurors, from whatever class empanelled, are too often either disaffected or intimidated. That the audacity of the conspirators has fearfully increased with their impunity, and that the conspiracy is rapidly extending into the neighbouring districts.
"That the sympathy, and, yet more, the terror of the population is proved by facts which come under our notice daily, and are well known to the

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authorities; such, for instance, as an Unwillingness to render the common offices of humanity to the victim of assassination or outrage, and the levy of forced contributions for the purpose of defending agrarian criminals.
"That while we give credit to the Executive for their wishes and endeavours to enforce the law as it stands, we declare our strong conviction of its total inadequacy to meet a state of society never contemplated by British law.
"That we are persuaded we express the feelings of all respectable and well-affected persons of all classes in calling upon Parliament to enact such laws as may protect our lives and properties, deliver our population from an intolerable state of intimidation, and crush that secret conspiracy which is ruinous both to those who suffer from it, and to the interests of all ranks and classes of the country at large."
As to the Special Commission, the very case for which it issued still remained undecided, and that was only for Monaghan. Here it appeared that a secret conspiracy existed, which possessed the sympathy of so many as to overawe the entire population, so that evidence of murder committed in open day could not be obtained, and the jurors were either disaffected or intimidated. This was a fearful state of things in a country otherwise civilised and peaceable. Murders in open day—evidence not procurable—jurors intimidated—a Special Commission spending its powers without any conviction—another assizes passed by; no one put upon trial, the law apparently powerless. Surely, with a country in such a state, a grave, calm, dispassionate and searching investigation was required. It was no question of party upon either side. He had told the right hon. Baronet the late Chief Secretary for Ireland so, and had declared that he (Mr. Napier) would not stoop to degrade so important a subject as to make it subservient to party. He had no other object in view, when he took up the question while out of office, than to give his best aid to the Executive for the support of the law against this dangerous confederacy; and he had no other object now than to have a calm consideration of the subject with the same view. The Speech from the Throne noticed the fact of the existence of the evil, but there stopped short. Since Parliament assembled, additional crimes had been committed, and additional notices had been served. There was one case of a gentleman, whose name it would be, of course, improper to mention, who had received private information from an undoubted authority that two committees of Ribbandmen had sat upon his case, and condemned him to death, and that persons had been appointed to exe-
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cute the decree. The facts of the case were these: there was a man who was the tenant of a small farm, and was himself a notorious Ribbandman. This man had been many years in arrear with his rent, and he was at length put off his land for these large arrears. After he quitted the land the result was that it lay waste, because no one would take it, from terror of the consequences. The man then wanted to return, and because the agent would not give him possession of the land again, he had been condemned to die. In another instance an English gentleman, who had, as many others had done, gone over with the beneficent design of introducing capital into the country, had taken land on the Blayney estate, on which the previous tenant owed 200 l., all of which he had been forgiven, and 20 l. had been given him to go away; and yet this gentleman had been served with notice of the usual sentence. Notices had been served on proprietors of the best character—on mill-owners giving employment, and on justices of the peace and others. There had been a notice to a gentleman on the 11th February (by private information), that his murder was sub judice. These cases were but a selection. He would now shortly state what was the law on the subject. A peculiar code of statutes had existed in Ireland from an early period, applicable to the crimes of secret confederacies. The 36th Geo. III., chap. 27, made the crime of conspiracy to murder a capital offence. This was not the case in England. The 38th Geo. III., chap. 57, made solicitation to murder also capital, and this also was peculiar to Ireland. On the late Leinster circuit a man had been found guilty under the former of these laws for a conspiracy to murder, and sentenced to death. But he would now come to the code of laws which was levelled more particularly against Ribbandism. These began with the statute 50th Geo. III., chap. 102, passed in 1810. And the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, then Lord Chief Justice Blackburne, recently said, speaking of this Act—
"It refers to the administering of oaths or engagements, binding the persons, amongst other matters, to obey the orders, rules, and commands of any committee, or of any captain, leader, or commander, and not to reveal the taking of any illegal oath on discovery that such had been taken. No one can read the Act (says the Chief Justice) without seeing that it reflects the very crimes which are at the bottom of these disturbances, which led to the very state and condition

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of the country which has been unfortunately the cause of assembling you here to-day."
This showed what a continuous system it was, and that the system was not now springing up in Ireland for the first time, but that these crimes grew out of a secret confederacy—a great political organisation—whioh exerted its powers on every grievance, real or pretended, which it could get hold of through its extended ramifications. It was a mistake to say it was a land question, although he had no doubt it would get hold of land questions if it could; but it interfered with everything. It had its own code of laws, and the man who transgressed them was regularly tried and condemned, and executioners were appointed to put the sentence into execution. After the passing of the Act of 1810, great difficulty was found in administering it, owing to the obstacles that stood in the way of procuring evidence of the administration of illegal oaths. In the case of secret societies, previous to the breaking out of any overt act, the only evidence upon which the Government could rely was that of informers; but in the case of the secret societies to which he referred, it was so arranged that no one was admitted at the administration of an oath but the person who administered it, and the person who took it, so that there was great difficulty in obtaining any evidence at all upon that point. In 1816, therefore, the Insurrection Act was passed, which was temporary only in its operation, and was one of a stringent character, only justified by extreme necessity, after the ordinary remedies of law have been exhausted. The Act empowered the proclaiming of a county, and the holding of special sessions, to proceed without jurors; and people were compelled to remain in their houses at night. Next came the 4th Geo. IV., chap. 87, which is levelled against membership in such associations. "This (says the Chief Justice Blackburne) appears to me to have been levelled against the very state of things which prevails in your own county, and which has caused so much disturbance in it." The Chief Justice next referred to the 2 & 3 Vict., c. 74 (Ribband Act), and observed that "This code of laws seems as if it had been prophetic of the present state of things;" and he added also, "Unquestionably the law is sufficient as it stands, provided that it can be executed, which it can only be through the instrumentality of the officers of justice." The 2 & 3 Vict. was continued in 1844,
1178
by the 7 & 8 Vict., c. 78, to Sept. 1, 1845. In 1845 it was continued by the 8 & 9 Vict., c. 55, which repealed the portion of the 2 & 3 Vict., which made it criminal knowingly to have in possession or custody, without being able to account for the same, secret signs, passwords, &c. The repeal of that clause by the Act of 1845 had caused great difficulty in convicting persons who were detected with illegal signs or passwords, and it was proper to consider whether it should be restored. The clause, he thought, might be so modified as to obviate the difficulty referred to; but this would be matter for consideration by the Committee. The House would observe that the Chief Justice said, that if the ordinary law could be executed it was sufficient; but what he wanted to call the attention of the House to was the peculiar nature of the confederacy, which prevented the ordinary law from being executed. A clear apprehension of the nature and working of the Ribband system was absolutely essential to understand its influence on the administration of justice. It was necessary to get behind the scenes and see its operation upon witnesses and jurors. The House would then begin to understand how the law could not be executed. They would also be enabled to see more clearly whether moans could not be found to remove those obstructions to the administration of the law, and whether the action of the law could not be placed in a healthy and vigorous state, so as to break down these confederacies, which he maintained should be the object of every one, no matter to what party he belonged. In the present state of Ireland it was essential that confidence should exist in the supremacy and power of the law; and, above all things, that there should be security for life and property. He had said before, and he would say again, that if they could succeed in establishing a complete security for life and property, there ought to be no reason why capital should not find its way into Ireland—why its resources should not be freely developed, and why those benefits which God had so abundantly bestowed upon that unhappy country so distributed as to promote the strength of the United Kingdom by the peace and happiness of Ireland, fie would now notice the cases of this Ribband conspiracy which had been brought under the cognisance of the Irish Courts of Justice. After the Act of 1839, the Attorney General of that day, the late Lord Chancellor, Mr.

1179
Brady, had commenced a series of prosecutions with great effect; and one remarkable case had occurred of a man named Richard Jones, for whom he (Mr. Napier) had been counsel, as he had been in other cases of the same class, and had thus acquired a little knowledge of the practices of the conspirators. He would observe that the case he referred to showed that the conspiracy was not confined to Ireland, but existed in England and Scotland; in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, and Glasgow. One of the principal cases under the 2 & 3 Vict., c. 74, was that of this Richard Jones—he was tried in Dublin, at the commission, before Mr. Justice Ball and Baron Richards, on the 29th of June, 1840. There was a great body of evidence produced on that occasion; their books, written in shorthand, their passwords, and various letters and communications. Mr. Justice Ball, in passing sentence upon Jones, said—
"You have been found guilty of belonging to an organised body of persons of the working classes of the community, having its president and other officers, and holding its sittings from time to time in the city of Dublin. That association appears to have affiliated with it others of the same character in Great Britain and many counties in Ireland. It manifests, it is true, no defined objects; but it is possessed of an organisation capable of being applied to any purpose, however dangerous, requiring combined movements and unity of action. Such an association, so constituted and directed, no Government, deserving of the name, could suffer to exist in this country, if by legal means its destruction could be accomplished."
He would next read from the sentence pronounced in a similar case by Judge Crampton, July 23, 1842, at Armagh:—
"You have been convicted of acting as members of a Ribband Association—an association which sets itself up against the law of the land—a secret, inquisitorial system, which acts unseen and unknown, and whose decrees are followed with the blindest obedience; which involves in danger both the lives and property of Her Majesty's subjects; asserting a supremacy in direct opposition to the laws of the land, tending to involve the public peace in the greatest danger, and threatening mischief of the most lamentable description, especially to the poor man. I find from the evidence that it exists, not merely in this county, or in another county, but in all counties—nay, that it exists in England and Scotland; and how far it is extended, or how old it may be, I know not."
Perhaps, however, the most graphic description of this confederacy might be given in the words of a man of whom Ireland was justly proud, and who had a large experience in the administration of the law in that country, and bore the highest judicial
1180
character—he meant the Chief Justice Bushe, who in 1832, presided at the Special Commission at Maryborough. There was, indeed, nothing which any one who wished to understand the true state and character of Ireland could read with more advantage than the celebrated charge delivered by that eminent and distinguished Judge upon that occasion. He said—
"This mysterious engine of secret combination, shifted from place to place, continues to be wielded and worked by some invisible hand from time to time—now against one part of the island, and now against another. Yet those who have had the experience of many years of official and judicial life can assure you that it has never been able to stand against the venerable authority of the laws, vigorously and calmly brought to bear upon it."
He (Mr. Napier) had often conferred with this eminent Judge on the state of Ireland; indeed he might say—
"Tam magnæ quæstionis pondus excipere, vix Hercule, auderem, si mihi mea sententia proferendum, ac non disertissimorum hominum sermo repetendus esset, quos eandem hanc quæstionem pertractantes juvenis admodum audivi."
A political organisation was applied to immediate agrarian subjects. He (Mr. Napier) could also state that he had a long conversation with the late Mr. Justice Burton on the subject, who had said it came to this, that either the Ribband code or the law of the realm must prevail—and that, in truth, was the issue now raised, and which must be decided one way or the other. He trusted that the law of the land would prevail, and believed it had a moral power which must in the end succeed if soundly and firmly executed. He would now mention some of the cases in which the law had been enforced, and the structure of the system of Ribbandism encountered by prosecutions in the ordinary course. The first great case was "Rex v. Keenan," Nov. 4, 1822; which was prosecuted under the 50th Geo. III., c. 102, for administering an unlawful oath. The prosecution was conducted by Mr. Attorney General Plunket, with the object—the legitimate object, as he (Mr. Napier) thought—of exposing the character and objects of the confederacy, in order to make it generally understood by the public, the conviction being regarded as a secondary matter. On that occasion it was discovered that the organisation of the confederacy extended far beyond the capacity of the persons ostensibly concerned; that while the persons who were ostensibly concerned were a low class, though above the pressure of want, so that

1181
it was not under the effects of distress that the confederacy was set on foot, there seemed to be other persons of a higher capacity and better station who wielded the organisation behind the scenes. It was remarkable that the admission and passwords proved on this trial were afterwards found in Louth, by Mr. Hamilton; a fact which strikingly showed the continuity of the system. Difficulty of prosecuting had arisen under this Act, then in force, and there had been a Committee in the House of Lords in 1824, which made a searching inquiry, and before which Mr. Blackburne, the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, was examined, and there was probably no man living who was, from his experience, judgment, and discrimination, better qualified to speak upon that subject than that right hon. and learned Gentleman. In his evidence, on that occasion, Mr. Blackburne showed that the conspiracy was a conspiracy against the rights of property; that the object was to get possession of the soil, and that it was in nothing more remarkable than the tyranny it exercised over the lower classes, many of whom were not in a condition to exercise any degree of resistance. When they found persons in a higher class of life, in circumstances which might be supposed to enable them to resist such influences, yielding under the pressure of this desperate tyranny, he thought they ought to extend some feeling of compassion and sympathy to the humble classes who were subjected to the same influence. In many cases it was supposed that a whole neighbourhood was sympathising with murderers, when this apparent concurrence was in truth the effect of intimidation. This circumstance had been alluded to by Mr. Justice Crampton, and the witnesses who justified the Act of 1816—a very stringent measure—also urged the necessity of affording protection to the poor. He (Mr. Napier) thought this consideration should not be disregarded, but that they ought to adopt measures to protect the humbler classes from the stigma which was affixed to them by wholesale, when they were living under a reign of terror. In 1832 also a Committee of that House was appointed almost contemporaneously with the issuing of a Special Commission in Ireland. The number of cases tried by that commission was thirty-nine, out of which there were thirty-eight convictions. This number of convictions was explained by the fact, which was mentioned by the learned Gentleman who was at that time Attor-
1182
ney General for Ireland, that no cases were brought forward in which the evidence was not considered sufficiently clear to insure conviction. The Committee had reported in August: referring to the improved state of the locality in consequence of the Special Commission, they observe that associations make themselves masters of a locality before the enforcement of the law has produced a remedy. They likewise recommended a special sessions. In 1833 came the celebrated Coercion Act of Earl Grey, which expired in 1835. Confederacies had then revived in various forms. About this time there had been directions of the law officers as to not setting aside jurors, and the effect of this on trials had been most marked. Jurors were open to a variety of undue influences, not legally a cause of challenge. But the result of these directions had been so to restrain the Crown solicitors in the exercise of the right of the Crown, that they were afraid to exercise it. When his learned Friend the late Attorney General for Ireland had come into office, he had issued very proper instructions to the Crown solicitors to exercise the right at their discretion; which he (Mr. Napier) did not deem the less a duty than a right—a duty to be discharged uprightly for the proper administration of justice. The consequence of the abandonment of the right of setting aside by the Crown had been that the law had been quite inefficient, and such had been the increase of Ribbandism that there had been a Committee in 1838 of the House of Lords, which published evidence, but made no report. Major Warburton's evidence was peculiarly valuable, and confirmatory of the views of Lord Plunket and Chief Justice Bushe, already alluded to, showing that there was "an available organisation kept in readiness for any required purposes, and more political than agrarian." Mr. Plunket, a stipendiary magistrate, described it as of his own knowledge in Louth, Monaghan, Armagh, and Down, and Mr. Hamilton (Crown Solicitor), confirmed this. Mr. Hamilton also said, that the Ribbonmen make use of their society to effect arrangements for themselves as to land. Major Warburton said, it must have had some very able head to direct it, from the mode in which it worked judicially and executively, having its own code of laws. Mr. Tracy described it as "a deep and serious conspiracy against life and property." He might refer the House to a Digest published by Hatchard in 1839,

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taken from the evidence given before the Committee of the Lords In 1838. The effect of the repeal of the Clauses of the Act of the 2 & 3 Vict, c. 74, which had empowered the conviction of parties having in their possession secret signs and symbols, had been, that parties who before it bad been easy to convict, now escaped; and a remarkable instance had lately occurred of the escape of a large party of persons, arrested with signs and passwords; and so the conspiracies, which had been broken down before 1845, revived afterwards. It was sometimes said, that all these were results of not regulating the Law of Landlord and Tenant. A Special Commission had issued in 1848, and Chief Justice Blackburne, in his charge, stated the various erimes as the overt acts of unlawful confederacy, the principal object being "the destruction of the right of landlords." This is accomplished by fraud, violence, intimidation, and murder. He adds these words:—"And I hesitate not to say, that if the designs attempted to be effected by such means were accomplished, the necessary and particular effect would be, that the occupiers of the land must become substantially its proprietors." He said also that it was a very limited view to suppose it was merely confined to interference with land; and he added that, "if these practices be not arrested and prevented, it is impossible to say that there will exist in this country either the dominion of the law, or the safety of life or property." He (Mr. Napier) thought the soundest and "wisest law that could be adopted to meet cases of this nature, was one which would nip such confederacies as he had described, in the bud, and check them before they broken out in any overt acts. Now it was sometimes said that the crimes to which he had alluded resulted from proper measures not having been adopted to regulate the relations of Landlord and Tenant; but he had observed that where offences of this kind took place, the tenants, with reference to whose possession or dispossession of property the crime was committed, were never of the class of tenants who would be benefited by legislation as between landlord and tenant. They were generally tenants who set a bad example in their neighbourhoods, who got into large arrears of rent, and who wasted the land. But, on the other hand, he must admit that whatever tended to keep up a feeling of discontent in the minds of the tenantry, gave great faci-
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lities for the extension of these organisations, and he had, therefore, paid great attention to much that had been said in that House with regard to legislation between landlord and tenant. They ought, in his opinion, either to say honestly that this was not a matter upon which they could properly legislate, or, if they thought in their consciences that something might be done consistently with the rights of property, they ought to do it. He had given his mind to the subject; he had determined, if he had remained an independent Member, to submit a measure to the House; and it was now his intention to submit to the Government with which be was connected the results of the considerations he had given to the question. He hoped, at no very distant period, to be able to lay upon the table a code of laws which, so far as was consistent with the rights of property, would simplify all the relations of landlord and tenant, and would do, at least, for the honest and industrious tenant as much as could be done by the Legislature for their relief. He could not help thinking that those who have been exciting the minds of the tenantry, and keeping them in a state of constant agitation on the subject of these rights, had contributed largely, though no doubt inadvertently and unconsciously in many instances, to the great organisation of conspiracy. There had been, unfortunately, a great deal of distress in Ireland; when there was distress there was usually discontent, and men were found who took advantage of this distress to advance their own views, without reference to other matters. What occurred to the tenantry in this respect, had contributed to enable this desperate organisation to extend its fearful ramifications in all directions. A great want in Ireland was capital to employ labour; but capital would never come into a country when its owners were liable at any moment to be dealt with so summarily, and when their life was in constant peril as well as their property. Ireland washy this means rendered almost incapable of improvement, and poverty was, consequently, perpetuated. Absenteeism was necessitated by the strongest possible obligation—that of saving life; and so virtue and honesty; and the reward derivable from honest labour, were extinguished wherever that formidable conspiracy had found a footing in that country. He believed that nothing; was more important to Ireland under these circumstances than that the arm of the

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Executive should be so strengthened by the law as to enable it to repress crime and punish outrage of every description. That, however, could only be effected by all good men of every class and religious persuasion seeking to find the means wherewith to give them strength. In the "Catechism of Tenant Right," published in 1850, it was described to be the duty of farmers to discountenance any person taking a farm from which a tenant is ejected, "as he who does so aids and assists the landlord in robbing the ejected tenant of his tenant-right, and shares in the spoil: they should make common cause with him, and render him pecuniary assistance if necessary." How the landlords were to be discountenanced, a series of the most atrocious murders committed within the last two years clearly showed. He should select a few of these terrible crimes to show the House the nature of the confederacy. On the 19th of April, 1849, two brothers, Roman Catholics—for it did not matter to the conspirators whether their predestined victim was Protestant or Roman Catholic—two brothers, who had been put into a farm as care-takers, the tenant having been ejected two years previously, were both murdered, in open day, one after the other. Then followed, in May 1850, the murder of Mr. Mauleverer, in Armagh. He (Mr. Napier), from all be could learn, was satisfied that the conduct of Mr. Mauleverer as an agent had in it nothing whatever to provoke his assassination, but that he was murdered simply in pursuance of the fiat of this confederacy. The person accused was brought to trial, but acquitted; the jury stating in substance that they believed him guilty, though they were obliged to acquit him because of the legal incompleteness of the evidence. There was, however, a curious circumstance stated in connection with the case—the man acquitted went to America, and there died, confessing his guilt. On the occasion of that trial the then Attorney General for Ireland, now the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, graphically described the case in his opening statement on the trial, July 11, 1850. He said—
"Mr. Mauleverer was an agent for several properties in this country, and in order to recover the just and legitimate rights of his employers, he was obliged to bring parties into courts of law, and in some cases to sue out ejectments. But he (the Attorney General) believed that this murder was the result of a foul and base conspiracy, and that the parties implicated in it had no connection with Mr. Mauleverer as an agent."
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The next case was a murderous assault committed on a magistrate of the county Monaghan—Mr. Kenney—on the 15th October, 1850. The trial took place at the spring assizes following; but there was an acquittal. Then ensued the murder of Mr. George Coulter, a farmer and under-agent, killed on the morning of the 2nd May, going to the fair of Cross-maglen. He was first fired at and then mangled, receiving eighteen wounds in the head, twenty in the neck, and having his skull smashed. This took place about a mile from the scene of Mr. Mauleverer's murder, also near the scene of the murder of the Clarkes, about ten o'clock in the forenoon, on the public road. There was a great difficulty in the way of procuring evidence, and the accused parties were therefore admitted to bail in 10 l. each; but they also went off, it would seem, to America. The unfortunate man who was murdered had taken a farm, from which the previous tenant had been evicted. That farm was occupied, after the murder, by the brother-in-law of the deceased; but he, too, was compelled toqu it it (notwithstanding he had spent money on the land) by threats and violence used towards him. Subsequent to this, the murder of M'Entaggart, a lad of nineteen years of age, took place on the 15th of June, 1851. He was going to chapel on Sunday morning, about eight o'clock, with his sister, along the line of the railway, when three men attacked and beat him so that he died, though the sister threw herself on him. His father was obnoxious from having had his farm increased by adding another which tenants had given up, having been compensated. One of the witnesses of the accused admitted, on cross-examination, that a Ribband lodge met at the house where he lived. He did not appear at the second trial. The case was tried at the summer assizes. The jury were all Roman Catholics; seven record jurors (independent) for convicting, five Crown jurors for acquitting. The second trial took place on the 7th of August, by an inferior class of jurors, at the adjourned assizes, and the prisoners were acquitted. Nothing could be more injurious to the administration of criminal justice in Ireland than the supposition that an inferior class of persons, liable as they were to the influence of intimidation or of sympathy, were sufficient to try criminal causes which lay at the root of life as well as the possession of all property; while jurors of a higher class were only called on to decide

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in civil cases, involving, perhaps, a few-pounds. In his opinion, the jurors should he as respectable for the one side of the Court as for the other; and he did hope the Committee would recommend an alteration in the jury law which would have the effect of enforcing such improvement. A singular circumstance took place on the second trial. One of the jury, on coming out of the box, it is said, shook hands with the accused, who said in open Court, "I'm the boy that did the job." The next case he (Mr. Napier) should refer to was the murder of Mr. Bateson. This took place near Castleblayney, on the 4th of December, 1851, at half-past four o'clock in the afternoon, on the open road. Mr. Bateson was coming from a model farm, on which he had expended 460 l. in employment alone during the previous four months. There was no proceeding for the recovery of rent on his part: nothing like harshness attributed to him. Three men fired at him and missed him; he was, however, speedily knocked down, and received twelve wounds on his head, of which he immediately died. This was the testimony of a local paper opposed to him in political opinion: "A good man, one of the best, perhaps, in Ireland, has been sent to his account by the hands of assassins. He gave labour to every tenant who chose to work, summer and winter." The next case was that of Mr. Eastwood, December 24th, 1851. Three men assailed him near his residence, and though he bore a high character for benevolence and attention to the comfort of his peasantry, he nevertheless narrowly escaped with his life. After this came the case of Mr. Chambre, which was remarkable in every sense. He was attacked on the 25th of January, 1852, at about a quarter-past five o'clock, coming from the Petty Sessions. The attack took place about five miles from the scene of Mr. Coulter's murder, about six from that of the Clarkes, and about eight from that of Mr. Mauleverer. His servant and brother were on the ear. He was fired at from behind a ditch, and struck by twenty-four pellets. One eye was destroyed, and the vein and artery in the neck were both cut. There were six men engaged in the attack, because it was known that he carried arms on account of a notice received. Mr. Chambre, his servant and brother, each had a case of pistols and a dagger. The assailants were armed with three blunderbusses and three bludgeons. Mr. Chambre had never dispossessed a tenant, and he
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had expended 600 l. out of 1,000 l. a year, in labour amongst his tenantry. Ribbandism abounded in the neighbourhood. Two persons were committed by Mr. Chambre for writing threatening notices. Some had been taken up two months before with the Ribband papers; but as the law had been altered, they were liberated as in Antrim. There were five houses near where Mr. Chambre was shot. One of the occupants refused to allow Mr. Chambre to be brought in, and all the doors were shut from that place to his own home, which was at the distance of a mile and a half. The House would observe that in all the cases he had mentioned, the law had not reached the murderers, whether put in force at the ordinary assizes, or by means of a special commission, which was generally supposed to be effective in quieting the country. No doubt his (Mr. Napier's) right hon. Friend the late Attorney General for Ireland had exercised a sound discretion in postponing the trials of the accused; but he hoped that all the cases would be ready, by the next assizes. It was a fearful state of things that all these murders should he perpetrated, and that no one of the murderers should be brought to justice; that this terrible confederacy should be still rampant, and nothing done by Parliament to put it down. As regarded the counties in question, there existed a reign of terror to an extent that no one would believe; and its demoralising influence had spread to the class from which the jury lists were constituted. There was in the small towns a regular levy upon the shopkeepers for the defence of persons accused of these murders, and refusal to contribute was out of the question, as it might be followed by assassination. The farmers, were in the same way coerced; and thus the vengeance of these few bold, bad men, bade fair to be destructive of the rights of all classes of society in Ireland. He would read an extract of a letter which he had received from a magistrate of the county Louth, and the House would judge for itself. This gentleman had, he (Mr. Napier) should state, devoted his time, and attention to the interests of his tenants, as the extracts in question would show; and his opinion, as a man of experience, was most valuable:—
"You know what a constant resident I have ever been, and how I devoted my time and means to the improvement of my tenantry and to their comfort. To meet the times, I, more than two years ago, reduced all my rents in both this county and Monaghan. By a valuation the rent was so arranged that, according to the, corn

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averages of three years, the tenant should have two-thirds of the value for himself and his labour, and I but the value of one-third of my land. The average was taken when corn was lowest; and yet such is the organisation and intimidation in some districts that I know those who, though not only able, but willing to pay, dare not. And as to taking measures to enforce it, that is out of the question; for, as my bailiff said, 'no keeper would be allowed to live a night in it.' Some additional military and police have been sent into the districts; but that cannot reach the root of the evil, as was proved by poor Chambre's murderous attack. The Ribband system is at the bottom of all, and some Act to reach it must be passed. In all agrarian offences the venue must be changed from the county in which they occur; for even if the jurors were faithful and fearless, and disregarded threats, the bloody menace would be addressed to their wives and families, and, to my knowledge, have been; and who can stand that? With such examples as poor Mauleverer, Coulter, M'Enteggart, Bateson, Eastwood, and Chambre, &c., all unavenged by the law—I would have the venue changed: but let the law triumph."
Before they could improve the condition of Ireland they must render the security of life and property to be certain, as that was the basis of society, and a necessary condition of civilisation. But here the influences of confederacy had demoralised society, and uprooted the rights of all classes alike. He did not think the Committee would take very long to discover the truth, nor would he propose to embarrass them by a number of petty witnesses; but the Earl of Clarendon had sent down to these districts a very active magistrate, Major Warburton, and a most intelligent gentleman, who had paid much attention to this subject, Major Brownrigg, and they could state their views and afford the Committee much valuable information. At present, however, there was one evil which all were aware of—the intimidation of the juror class, on which subscriptions for prisoners were often levied by compulsion, and which was sometimes implicated in these very offences—for instance, one of the men who had the return of the jurors had to stand in the dock himself at the last assizes; and the barony constables were also exposed to much violence and bribery. The only way to alter this state of things was to have a higher class of jurors, and, by means of the poor-rates, they could hope to get lists of persons with sufficient property to place them above the reach of intimidation and bribery. It might be considered, also, whether power should not he given to the Court of Queen's Bench, where certain undue influences and tyranny were shown, to remove the trial to another place. On this point
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he wished the Committee to consider the evidence of the officers of the Crown with respect to the state of the law, and the nature of the testimony required, as well as with reference to the desirableness of changing the venue. In conclusion, he could only say that he expected from every party in the House a cordial and unanimous concurrence in administering the law between the Crown and the subject, in securing life and property, in vindicating justice, in giving to Ireland a full opportunity for the development of her industrial resources, in affording to the industrious tenant the protection he required for his labours, and in granting safety and aid to the loyal and peaceful subjects of the Crown. There was nothing he would not endeavour to do in order to make the law respected and powerful, and to put down this terrible system of crime and outrage, which not only interfered with the prosperity of his native country, in which naturally he took the deepest interest, and inflicted a serious injury on Ireland, but which must prove fatal to the prosperity, peace, and progress of the United Kingdom.
MR. HATCHELLsaid, he did not rise with the intention of offering the slightest objection to the Motion which his right lion, and learned Friend had made in such a fair and dispassionate manner; but it occurred to him that whatever remedy might be suggested to meet the crime that had prevailed in these districts of Ireland, might equally be extended to the other parts of the country where similar offences should be committed. The crimes and outrages to which his right hon. and learned Friend referred were not of late growth, but the secret society which had been alluded to had, unfortunately, existed for the last thirty years; and the history of Ireland told them that in the Liverpool and Grey Administrations, efforts had been made to quell those disturbances, sometimes by extraordinary powers under temporary statutes, and more frequently in latter times by keeping within the limits of the existing laws, and by the issue of Special Commissions. Every Crown prosecutor had considerable difficulty in making the law available to repress crime; and a variety of influences and much misrepresentation rendered it most difficult at the present day to obtain convictions. With respect to the Special Commission for the county of Monaghan, recently issued, he could only state that the result of that proceeding rested on his

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responsibility as late law adviser of the Crown, and not on the Lord Lieutenant. An urgent demand had been made upon the Irish Government by the gentry and the magistrates to put down these atrocious crimes, and when the case was referred to him by Lord Clarendon as to whether the cases for trial were such as to justify that course, he found the evidence so clear for a conviction, that he advised the proceeding of the Special Commission; but although the prisoner was indentified by two witnesses, and twice tried, the jury would not agree; and as to some of the outrages in Monaghan and Louth, he had thought it advisable to transfer the cases to the Court of Queen's Bench to be tried next assizes, either at the bar of the Court, or by a special jury, or with a change of venue, which the Court of Queen's Bench could order even now. On the first trial for the murder of M'Taggart, the jury could not agree; an adjourned assizes were held, the man was put on his trial a second time, when a new witness was produced, and the sister of the girl who was the principal witness against him—the sister of the man for whose murder the prisoner was in the dock—came forward and contradicted the evidence of the girl, and the man was acquitted. In the case of Mr. Eastwood, he was so much injured he could not become a witness; and, acting on the right of the Crown, he (Mr. Hatchell) had postponed the trial, and in the meantime the right hon. Gentleman opposite could remove the case by certiorari, so as to have a jury in whom confidence might be placed. In like manner his right hon. Friend having come into office thought it advisable to postpone the cases in Armagh. He had not made these statements for any other object than in justice to the office he had held, and to public opinion, to explain the part he had taken with regard to these murders and atrocious outrages. His right hon. Friend had done him full justice in that respect, that the case at Monaghan had not failed for want of due exertion on the part of the law officers, but from other causes; and he admitted that his instructions to the officers of the Crown had differed from those of his predecessors, for he had thought himself warranted by the State of the country in giving them directions to set every juryman aside whom they suspected to be under the influence of fear, favour, or intimidation, or to be otherwise ineligible from any known sympathy with the offences which disgraced and disturbed
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the country. And yet, after all, Government had failed to obtain a conviction. Perhaps something might be suggested in the Committee to meet this crying evil, arising front the Ribband system, which was a conspiracy existing among the lower orders for mote than thirty years, not for any particular object, but for various illegal purposes as occasion for putting its powers of organisation into force; and he certainly hoped that the inquiry, unlike many that had taken place on Irish affairs, would end in some proposition beneficial to the country.
MR. HALLEWELLsaid, he must express his satisfaction that this inquiry had at last been determined upon. No question demanded more consideration than the case of Ireland, affecting as it did not only the moral and material improvement of that unfortunate country, but its character as a civilised community. No other country in the world presented such a state of society, nor was there any in which such lamentable occurrences took place. He would not go into the details of these crimes, or make any comment upon the causes that led to them, but would content himself with observing, that without the supremacy of the law no solid fabric of social order could be erected, and that unless the law became a terror to evil-doers they would become a terror to society.
MR. TORRENS M'CULLAGHsaid, he sympathised with a great deal that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had said about the lamentable effects of the Ribband society in Ireland, and the prevalence there of horrible outrages. All must feel that their discontinuance was not only essential to the welfare of the people, but to their progress as a community. But the House was bound to bear in mind that equality of character and of order in the eye of the law never yet had been obtained by nations gathered together as those three Kingdoms were under one state of law, unless the spirit of the laws affecting those Kingdoms were really and substantially the same, unless rich and poor were protected in the enjoyment of the same rights, and placed on the same footing. T/he neglect of this question had tended very much—not to originate or wholly account for, but—to aggravate the state of things which his right hon. Friend had described. Last Session there had been several discussions about the modification of the tenant laws; and certain restrictions upon what were considered the rights and liberties of the tenant, as against the

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proprietor, were proposed to be enacted in form of law; and that was done. Many hon. Gentlemen urged on the Government of the day the necessity of rendering more stringent the means for the recovery of rent; and the Government had been very strongly pressed to get rid of that portion of the Statute law—the right of the tenant, when he had not a lease, to be served with a notice to quit. The right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) had urged anxiously and earnestly on that occasion that there was no necessity for the Irish tenant to be placed on the same footing as the English tenant. Unfortunately the remonstrances were unheeded; the Statute Law was changed; the right of the poor man was taken away by an overwhelming majority. Since that bold and fundamental check and guard of the tenant's liberties had been removed, 185 families had been sued and decreed in ejectment in a single county—one of the counties included in that district which the right hon. and learned Gentleman described as so limited, but which included two other counties as well. The attention of English Members might be startled at this; and he had a right to claim from them a very dispassionate consideration, not only of the immediate and proximate causes of the outrage, and the failure of justice that had ensued; but of the latent, predisposing, and aggravating causes, namely, the fear of distress, which oppressed the class in the occupation of land. His right hon. Friend had said he thought the Committee ought to be appointed with a view to debate remedies in the coercive sense, to strengthen the arm of the Executive, without which he considered it impossible that law and order could be maintained effectually. [Mr. NAPIER said, that was a mistake.] He (Mr. M'Cullagh) said, that if it was not to be appointed for the purpose of preparing or suggesting remedies, he presumed it would be strictly a Committee of Inquiry. He thought the right hon. and learned Gentleman had limited the class of witnesses to be called before that Committee to the exclusion of others. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had designated two excellent officers, Major Warburton and Major Brownrigg, to neither of whom anybody would object; but he seemed to give them as a sample of witnesses to come before the Committee; and, under all the circumstances of the case—with the lamentable discontent existing in this part of Ireland on the subject of agrarian differ-
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ences—he did not think it would answer one good purpose if they consented to appoint a Select Committee of Inquiry, simply for the purpose of examining witnesses in the sense and spirit which he understood his learned Friend to propose. Without following the right hon. and learned Gentleman through the various historical illustrations he had adduced, he might be permitted to make one or two observations. No one respected more the talents and judgment of the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland than he did; but if his memory did not deceive him, the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, in the very appendix which his right hon. Friend quoted, gave the most vivid description which it was possible for words to contain of the root of this fearful matter. Therefore he did not think it quite fair for his right hon. Friend to give an authority only so far as served the purpose of further coercion. But the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland was one of the Judges who were sent on a Special Commission to Limerick in 1847, when a worse state of things existed, if possible, than now. He was then Chief Justice Blackburne, and he presided over the Commission to repress outrages in Limerick, without any increase of the coercive power of the law. Now, Limerick had been tranquil from that time to this. He (Mr. M'Cullagh) urged upon the House not rashly to receive the impression which had been sought to be made upon them; and he trusted it would not go forth that they were unanimous in the opinion that it was necessary to change the fundamental principle of the criminal law in Ireland, because for a limited period in a limited district it so happened that there bad not been convictions. There was another matter on which he thought it right to guard English Members from being hurried away too hastily. He appealed to every man of common sense and justice, whether in the case that he was going to state, if he had been on the jury, he would have ventured to hesitate less than the jury did. The jury in the case tried at Monaghan on the murder of Mr. Bateson, about which so much had been said, turned entirely on the question of identity. The jury contained the names of four justices of the peace and of other persons of large property in the district. Of these twelve men, nine were for acquittal, and only three for conviction. ["No, no!"] He would place in the hands of any hon. Gentleman who doubted it the confidential letter which had been placed in his hands.

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In the second case, the jury was also composed of persons of property; that jury was divided in the proportion of seven to five, seven being for acquittal, and five for conviction. The question all through was a question of identity, and he had the assurance of a gentleman who was wholly unconcerned, that if he had been on the jury he should not have felt himself justified in giving a verdict of guilty. He did not intend to raise any question about the appointment of the Committee, but he thought it his duty to dissent from some of the observations that had been made, and to say that without going into a consideration of the causes which led to these outrages, they would not succeed in putting them down.
MR. GROGANsaid, he had listened with considerable pain to the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just spoken, as he could not have thought that any Gentleman in that House would have justified the outrages that had been committed. He did not think that anything could justify those outrages. The Committee was intended to investigate the question, but he did not think that anything could justify murder and perjury, and the other crimes that had been committed.
Select Committe appointed.
The House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.