Commons Sitting of 5 February 1852

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL.—1° County Rates.

PUBLIC-HOUSES IN SCOTLAND.
Acts [9 Geo. IV., cap. 58, Public Houses (Scotland); 6 Geo. IV., c. 81, Excise Licences] read.
MR. FORBES MACKENZIEmoved that the House resolve itself into Committee of the whole House to consider the laws regulating Public Houses in Scotland, with the view of introducing a Bill on the subject.
MR. HUMEthought they should have some reason assigned for this Motion. He had received no instruction from Scotland that any such Bill was necessary, and knew nothing of it; but they should have some ground assigned for proposing to disturb all the vested interests, many of them important, by a new measure that would re-establish a monopoly, and make changes very undesirable.
MR. FORBES MACKENZIEsaid, this was a mere preliminary step towards the introduction of a Bill. If the hon. Gentleman would wait till he saw the Bill, he (Mr. Mackenzie) thought he would see that there was no intention of establishing a monopoly. A Bill had been passed in the other House last year, which came to that House so late in the Session that it was impossible to pass it into law. He wished only to reintroduce that Bill early into the House, and should propose after the second reading to refer it to a Select Committee competent to deal with this question, from whose deliberations he hoped such a measure would come forth as the House would be satisfied to pass. It was not very agreeable for a Scottish Member to be called upon to state the grounds of this measure in the grievous amount of drunkenness that prevailed in Scotland, and the enormous consumption of whisky by the lower orders of that country. He believed it was acknowledged by everybody who had been there, that it was very desirable some measure checking the facilities for

185
such consumption should be introduced, and he asked to do something towards it by this Bill, the principles of which might be much better discussed on the second reading.
MR. HUMEcould only say that if Her Majesty's Government allowed a Bill of such importance as this to pass without a word, the House would be better without them.
The LORD ADVOCATEsaid, that although there was a great diversity of opinion as to the desirableness of any legislation on the subject, he could not see that there was any objection to be made to the hon. Gentleman opposite having leave to introduce his Bill.
The House in Committee.
Resolved—"That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of Public Houses in Scotland."
Resolution reported:—Bill ordered to be brought in.

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH—A SUPPLY.
The Order of the Day having been read for taking into consideration the Queen's Speech,
MR. SPEAKERread the portion of the Speech relating to the Estimates of the present year.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISmoved, "that a Supply be granted to Her Majesty."
MR. HUMEbegged to ask whether, in presenting the Estimates for the Army and Navy to the House, it was the intention of the Government to carry out any of the recommendations lately made of changes which had been proved to be absolutely necessary by the evidence taken before the Committee which sat three years ago. The evidence taken before that Committee of which he was a Member, showed clearly and distinctly that improvements of great importance, not only with regard to the inefficiency but the economy of both services could be effected. Although that Committee separated last Session under peculiar circumstances, and did not make so full report as was intended, in consequence of the loss of their chairman, they did offer some recommendations, and he wished to know if it would appear from the Estimates whether those recommendations were to be carried out.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that his right hon. Friend
186
(Sir F. Baring) who had moved the Navy Estimates in the two previous Sessions, had then stated what had been done in pursuance of the recommendations of the Committee. The Secretary at War, in moving the Army Estimates last Session, had also shown that the expenditure in that department had been very considerably reduced. As far as he recollected, it appeared from the statements last year, that a considerably increased force would be maintained at an expenditure below that of the previous year. The proper time, however, for any details upon this subject, would be when the Army and Navy Estimates were moved, and he had no doubt they would then be furnished in the fullest manner by his right hon. Friends by whom that duty would be performed.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, that he wished to put a question to the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Works. It had been stated on the previous evening by the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne), that one of the chandeliers suspended from the roof of the House had fallen. He should, therefore, be glad to know if the noble Lord was in a position to assure the House that there was no danger of any similar occurrence taking place? He also wished to know whether any means could be taken to make the lamps burn?
LORD SEYMOURsaid, that having heard the report that a chandelier had fallen upon the floor of the House, he sent for Mr. Barry, who, in reply to a question upon the subject, presented him with a paper (signed by the contractor, the clerk of the works, the foreman, and every one engaged in the building) denying that such was the fact. On the 3rd of January a workman let fall a piece of iron, which went through the floor of the House, and this might have given rise to the report. The defective burning of the lamps arose, he understood, partly from there having been a leakage of the gas, and partly from its not having been possible for the gas-fitters to complete their work within the time expected.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, that he did not make the statement with reference to the fall of the chandelier on his own responsibility; he had it from a Member of the Government, the noble Lord the Member for Lichfield (Lord Anson), who told it to him upon the authority of the seconder of the Address (Mr. Carter).
Committee thereupon To-morrow.
The House adjourned at a quarter after Five o'clock.