Commons Sitting of 1 April 1851

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Medical Charities (Ireland); Acts of Parliament Abbreviation Act Repeal.

FOREIGNERS IN LONDON.
MR. S. WORTLEYrose for the purpose of asking the right lion. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, "whether his attention has been railed to the number, character, and proceedings of certain persons, not being subjects of Her Majesty, but at present resident in this country and claiming its hospitality?" In order to make the question intelligible, it would be necessary that he should state a few facts. A powerful statement had been made last week on the subject elsewhere, the effect of which he would not weaken by repeating. He might, however, state that he had in his possession evidence of the existence of a wide-spread conspiracy in Europe, a branch of which had been established in this country, under the name of the Committee of Central European Democracy—
MR. M. GIBSONrose to order. It would be very desirable that they should know the position in which the House stood with regard to this question. He had no desire to prevent the right hon. Member (Mr. Wortley) from making any statement which was to make his question intelligible; but he (Mr. Gibson) wished to know whether they were to have a statement of facts on the one side, and no answer or reply on the other?
MR. SPEAKERsaid, that any hon. Member might make whatever statement of facts came within his own knowledge, provided he did not trench on the field of argument.
MR. S. WORTLEYwas not aware that he had been offending against the rules of the House. He had been merely stating facts which had come to his own knowledge. There existed at this time a body in this country and in this metropolis who styled

883
themselves the Committee of Central European Democracy, who in their published manifestoes acknowledged their object to be the subversion of the Governments of Central Europe. These parties recommended, as the means of promoting this object, insurrection against and the extermination of the existing sovereigns. It was not his intention to draw the notice of hon. Gentlemen to the matter, as it affected our foreign relations. That would be safe, he thought, if left in the hands of the Government; but with regard to the tranquil-lity of this country during the ensuing season, he conceived it was a subject requiring consideration. In the year 1848 the Government had asked and easily obtained from the House the power to remove from this country those foreigners who were believed to be of a dangerous character. Since that time other revolutions had taken place, and the number of foreigners in London had greatly increased. God forbid, that in one word he should say he should raise any objection against heartily receiving all those foreigners who sought to make this country a refuge in their misfortune! But the removal of that power for a time was now, even more than in 1848, the only safe and proper course. It had come to his knowledge—and he believed he had the best foundation for what he stated—that there were at that moment going on among foreigners residing in this country, in combination with some of the subjects of Her Majesty—a scheme for making some demonstration which would be very dangerous to the public tranquillity. The subject was a most important one for inquiry. He begged to ask the right Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether his attention had been called to the number, character, and proceedings of certain persons, not being subjects of Her Majesty, but at present resident in this country, and claiming its hospitality; and whether Her Majesty's Government were prepared to take any measures for further securing this country from any danger from the disturbance of its peace, or the embarrassment of its relations with friendly foreign Powers, by the abuse of that hospitality? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would say, if the Government contemplated any temporary measure to meet the case.
Sir G. GREY: Sir the question which has been put by the right hon. Member (Mr. Wortley) is one of undoubted importance. I shall answer the first part of the question I
884
by stating that the subject to which it refers is one to which the attention of the Government has long been directed, and still continues to be directed. The question as it stands on the paper embraces two distinct and important objects—the one the maintenance of the internal peace and tranquillity of this country, in the event, I should hope a very distant one, and a very improbable one, of that tranquillity and peace being menaced by the conduct of foreign refugees resident in this country. The second point to which the question directs itself is the prevention of embarrassment arising in the relations of this country with Foreign States with whom we are on amicable terms in consequence of proceedings of these refugees in England. Having already stated that the event of the peace and tranquillity of this country being disturbed is one which I regard as improbable, I have to state that looking at the number of refugees in this country, looking to the known character of some of them, and looking also to the probable increase which will take place in the number of foreigners of all classes in England, measures have been taken and precautions have been adopted within the existing law which I have not the slightest doubt will prevent or suppress any attempt which may be made to disturb the peace and tranquillity of this country. I believe that any such insane attempt, if it were made, could be immediately and effectually suppressed. With regard to the second point of the question, "Whether Her Majesty's Government are prepared to take any measures for further securing this country from any danger, from the disturbance of its peace, or the embarrassment of its relations with friendly Foreign Powers by the abuse of its hospitality," I will take this opportunity of expressing my opinion, and I cannot do so in terms too strong, that it is a gross abuse of that generous hospitality which has long been the distinction of this country, and which I trust will ever continue to be the pride of this country—to extend to foreign political refugees of every rank and shade of opinion—it would be a gross abuse of that generous hospitality for persons so circumstanced, and enjoying so many privileges when making this country an asylum in their time of need, to form clubs, concoct measures, and enter into conspiracies hostile to the security and subversive of the peace of Foreign States who are on terms of amity with this country. We have, I

885
believe, ample power, irrespective altogether of the Foreign Enlistment Act, to suppress all such attempts as may be made by foreigners to form conspiracies. I shall not be contradicted by any legal authority in this House when I say that conspiracies entered into by foreigners in this country living under the laws of this country and enjoying their security—it will not be denied, I say, that, if foreigners adopt any measures with the view of levying war against any foreign country with which this country is at amity, they are guilty of an offence at common law, and are punishable on conviction by fine and imprisonment. It will not he expected that I should state the precise nature and amount of the information possessed on this subject by Her Majesty's Government. I hope it will be sufficient for me to say that the proceedings of these parties are closely observed, and that the Government are determined at once to interfere and put the laws in force against foreigners, and show them the necessity which there is for strict obedience to the laws under the protection of which they live. We shall not hesitate, legally and constitutionally, to meet any violation of the law. I believe that the powers we possess are amply sufficient to punish by penalties the violation of the law by foreigners after we have been satisfied that these foreigners have really committed themselves in any case in which legal proceedings can be instituted.
MR. B. COCHRANEbegged to ask if the Government had any means of obtaining the names of foreigners in Loudon ', Was the Secretary of State aware, for instance, that Signor Mazzini was at present in London?
SIR G. GREY: We have no regular means of obtaining the names of foreigners in London, but we know the names of several of the principal ones.
Subject dropped.

FARM BUILDINGS,
MR. B. COCHRANE MR. B. COCHRANE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the provisions of the Private Money Drainage Act of 1849, to the advance of private money for the erection and repair of farm buildings on lauds in Great Britain and Ireland. Last year, when a Drainage Bill was before the House, one clause in it, which proposed to extend its provisions to farm buildings, was thrown out; and the Bill he now asked for leave to introduce was framed with the object of enabling the proprietor to obtain
886
money for farm buildings, to a limited extent, the money to be repaid within a period of thirty years—and there was a clause empowering the Commissioners to grant a rent-charge for the money thus obtained. This last proposition would be open to amendment. The House would admit that so many Drainage Acts having been passed, and farms having been thus increased, it was essential that farm buildings should he increased in proportion. In Scotland there was no power of obtaining money by proprietors of entails for such a purpose, except on life insurances. By this measure the heirs of entail would be greatly benefited. For instance, a Bill had been passed some years ago altering the Scotch law of entail, and enabling proprietors to sell land to the extent of one half of the amount of the improvements they made. By the proposed Bill, these parties might have obtained the money at a moderate rate of interest, and instead of one-half of the land being disposed of, there would have been no charge whatever. The Bill would be especially beneficial to persons who wished to obtain money at a late period of life. He would read a few lines of a letter he had received, and which expressed the feelings of Scotland in this proposed extension of the provisions of the Private Money Drainage Act to the erection and repair of farm buildings. [The hon. Member read an extract expressing the opinion that advances for the erection of farm buildings would be a great boon to the landholder, and most beneficial to the heirs of entail.] When this proposal was made last year, the objections urged against it were as follows. The hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Trelawny) opposed it, because he said it enacted protection in a different shape; the hon. Member for Preston (Sir G. Strickland) said, that the money was not sufficient; the hon. Member for North Devonshire (Mr. Buck) said, the loan was not sufficient, and it could not replace protection; the hon. Member for Elgin (Mr. dimming Bruce)said, that great advantage would arise from it to the farms; and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he had inserted the clause in order to elicit the opinions of Members, but that his own opinion was in favour of expunging it. With regard to contracting loans for the erection of farm buildings in Ireland, the right hon. Gentleman said he was willing to grant it, as there were peculiar circumstances in relation to Ireland which

887
did not exist with regard to England. Such was the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year; and he (Mr. B. Cochrane) now told the right hon. Gentleman, that unless some boon was conferred on Scotland in these days of free trade, he did not know how Scotland could meet foreign competition.
MR. SLANEYsaid, he was afraid the hon. Member had somewhat prejudiced his case by his allusion to free trade, and by speaking as if the measure related to advances out of a public fund. Now, the object of his hon. Friend's measure was simply to allow private persons to advance their money, and to give them facilities for so doing on landed property, for the improvement of lands, and the erection of farm buildings. He could state most certainly that many persons were desirous of obtaining loans for this purpose, and that many others were ready to make advances on good security. The difficulty which presented itself was the complex state of the law; and the object of his hon. Friend was to overcome that difficulty, and enable persons to advance such loans without the investigation of title and other machinery of a complex nature. Under the present Loan Act the difficulties were so great that the only advancing parties were large companies. He trusted that in Committee a clause would be introduced which would have the effect of removing that difficulty. Now, in what way were the repayments to he made? [Mr. B. Cochrane: Out of the rent-charge.] He supposed, therefore, that the rent-charge would have to be gathered without the advantage of the assistance of a Government officer; because from inquiries made of the Enclosure Commissioners he had ascertained that the lender would not be able to receive it back through the Government officer, but would have to collect it himself. If this difficulty could be removed, very considerable accommodation would be granted to landed gentlemen who required assistance; it would confer a great boon upon them without any expense to the public. If the difficulty to which he had alluded could be removed, many small capitalists would be ready to advance sums of 500 l. or 1,000 l, for which they would be able to obtain 7½ per cent for 22 years by way of annuity, or 4 per cent per annum.
MR. FERGUStrusted the House would pause before entertaining the principle broached by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cochrane). The only excuse for lending
888
money for the drainage of land was, that the whole community had an interest in the productiveness of the soil. He believed that any interference on the part of the Government to lend money would be exceedingly dangerous and liable to abuse. [Mr. SLANEY: It is not public money.] He knew that it was intended to allow only private individuals to lend, but such a measure would give them a lien over the lands, overriding all mortgages. If the object of the hon. Member was merely to simplify the law, and enable landed proprietors to borrow money on land, he should cordially approve of it. But if they departed from the principle of drainage and making the soil productive, they would open the door to great abuses, for money might be advanced for the purpose of building houses or ornamenting grounds. He trusted that the House would not extend the principle already laid down.
SIR B. HALLsaid, he understood the hon. Gentleman that it was public money that was to be granted, and if it had been, lie should have opposed the introduction of the Bill; but after the statement of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Shrewsbury, he thought it extremely desirable that such a Bill should be introduced. He was surprised at the observations of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, seeing the amount that Scotch gentlemen had got of the public money. There was one objection of the hon. Gentleman's which he thought scarcely tenable, which was, that the security for the money to be advanced was to take priority of all mortgages. Supposing it did, the advancing of this money had enhanced the value of all the property, and he thought it was but fair that it should take the priority. He hoped the Bill would be so framed that it would be productive of beneficial effects.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, it would he unnecessary to see that the money was applied to the purpose for which it was borrowed. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Slaney) spoke of the Enclosure Commissioners as the tribunal in England; but he (Colonel Dunne) knew no tribunal by which it could he applied in Ireland. It was quite clear that free trade had altered the system of cultivation in Ireland. Wheat had ceased in a great measure to be cultivated, and flax was cultivated instead. He had received a letter that morning from the chairman of a poor-law union, in which it was stated that in that district the cultivation of wheat had entirely fallen off, and flax was

889
cultivated. The cultivation of flax required mills, and he stated this to show that some assistance of this kind was required.
Mr. ELLICEsaid, if landowners chose to tic up landed property by all kinds of restrictions, they ought to see, at all events, that, as far as legislation could effect it, means should be taken to prevent the country from getting into a state of dilapidation, and prevent large districts from being absolutely without the means of improvement. He was consulted some time about an estate strictly entailed, and to which a. gentleman succeeded at a certain time of life. The estate was out of order, the buildings generally dilapidated; and the question arose how could this gentleman, with so short a tenure, find the means of putting it in order? He remembered particularly one proposal made was to lay out a sum of 3,000 l. or 4,000? on a farm of 400 or 500 acres, and it was absolutely essential that that sum should be laid out, in order to procure a good tenant; so that here was this gentleman, with a tenure of probably only a few years' duration, called upon to lay out four of five years' value upon one farm, and if he did not do that, then the land could not be improved. Though he believed it to be difficult to secure the application of the money in all respects in the most expedient manner and for the purposes for which it was wanted, still ho thought the attempt worth making, and he cordially gave his support to the lion. Gentleman's measure, leaving it to those who were more acquainted with rural affairs than he was to see that adequate precautions were taken when the Bill was in Committee.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that lie should not have said a single word if the hon. Gentleman had not talked at him, and he should not have opposed the Bill though he thought it impracticable. The hon. Gentleman would remember that when this Bill was discussed last year, it was rejected by a majority of two to one, and he found that if was rejected by three to one of the English county Members who voted, lie should leave it in their hands. He should not oppose the introduction of the Bill, but he thought it right to give his opinion en it.
MR. DEEDESsaid, he was one of the majority last year who voted against the Bill for what he considered good and sufficient reasons; but he was much surprised afterwards at the conduct of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exche-
890
quer, who supported a Bill giving to Ireland the privilege which he denied to England. If proper precautions were adopted, he thought in many cases advances might be most beneficially made.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, what he stated last year was, that so far as the Exchequer was concerned he was perfectly indifferent. He left it to the English Members to decide for England, and to Irish Members to decide for Ireland. The English county Members, by three to one, rejected it, and lie put no obstacle in the way on behalf of the Exchequer; and therefore the hon. Gentleman had not rightly stated it.
MR. DEEDES: What the right hon. Gentleman said was that he saw very great difficulty in preventing fraud in certain instances, and afterwards he allowed a similar Bill for Ireland.
MR. OSWALDsaid, he had had communications from Scotland that a Bill of this kind was much wanted. The money advanced for drainage would be useless unless they could erect farm buildings.
MR. B. COCHRANEsaid, he would read to the House what the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer did say last year. He would do so, because it was an important argument in the ease The right hon. Gentleman said—
"With regard to contracting loans for the construction of farm buildings in Ireland, lie was willing, as it appeared to be the general wish of Gentlemen connected with that country, and as there were possibly circumstances in relation to Ireland, which did not exist with respect to England, to assent to that proposition."
He had endeavoured as briefly as possible to explain the object of the Bill; and the notice on the paper clearly showed that his intention was "extend the provisions of the Private Money Drainage Act, of 1849." The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing his Budget, had alluded to the necessity of giving assistance to the landed interest in certain cases, and he thought great facilities might be given with respect to the erection of farm buildings.
Leave given.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Cochrane and MR. Forbes.

PATENTS.
COLOXEL SIBTHORP COLOXEL SIBTHORP moved for a return of the expenses incurred in taking out patents in England, Ireland, and Scot-

891
land respectively. He said, as Her Majesty's Government seemed determined to oppose these Returns, he had no hesitation in saying, that he looked with suspicion on their motives. In the year 1829, a Committee was appointed to consider the law of patents; and, after taking a great deal of evidence, they came to this important conclusion:—
"At the present late period of the Session, they are only prepared to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them, with the several documents; and they earnestly request the House that the inquiry may be resumed early in the next Session."
No further step had, however, been taken in the matter; and he believed nothing would have been done but for the Exhibition of the Industry of all Nations; in the getting up of which, the interests of foreigners had been consulted, and not the interests of this country. Since 1829, they had all been asleep respecting the good of the country, and the freedom of the country. A patent went through a great many offices, and there were a great many fees. It went through the hands of the Secretary for the Home Department with fees, and the Attorney General with fees. It went to the Signet Office for fees; to the Privy Seal for fees; and to the Lord Chancellor for fees, and he firmly believed for nothing else. He would tell them what some of those charges were. He would begin with England. The Attorney General charged for his Report three guineas; clerk, one guinea; if a caveat were entered, 5s.; to the clerk of the Attorney General for approving, and signing, and settling the hill, 5l. If the patent were approved of, there was another charge for the clerk, 5s.; hearing before the Attorney General, 2l. 12 s. 6d.; clerk ditto, 10 s. 6d. Then there was the reference to the Attorney General, 2l. 2s. 6d., Royal warrant, 7l. 13 s. 6d., and if the patent extended to the colonies and plantations abroad, 1l. 7s.] 6d. Then if they went to Scotland, there was the reference to the Lord Advocate, 2l. 2s. 6d., Royal warrant, 16 l. 17 s. 6d.: if granted to more than one person, 2l. 15 s. for each person. Then came Ireland, reference to the Attorney General, 2l. 2s. 6d., warrant and stamp, 9l. 9s. 6d. These were some of the expenses which the unfortunate inventor was called upon to pay. But this was not all; ho was to be subject to all kinds of foreign competition. They were to have an Exhibition, and all kinds of foreigners were to come
892
here, talking all kinds of gibberish. Of course, the English people would not understand them, and they would get into all kinds of disturbances. Suppose a case: A foreigner called a cabman, and told him to drive him to a certain place; the cabman could not understand him, and before he knew what he was about he would have something like a stiletto in him. And for what? For the Industry, forsooth, of all Nations. He believed that people were growing more and more averse to the whole affair. It was only that very day that he had heard some very respectable persons express their regret at the opening of any such Exhibition; and, for his own part, he heartily prayed, would to God that it might be washed down by the rains of April. The Government had introduced a Bill for the special protection of foreigners; but they had not thought of protecting the ingenuity of Englishmen. Foreigners would come and pirate the inventions of our countrymen, and he did not blame them for it; they would take them home, make up the same manufactures at a cheaper rate, and then send them here and undersell the ingenious and laborious mechanics of our own land. He did, therefore, call upon the House to prevent these gross attacks upon the privileges of Englishmen. It was the duty of Her Majesty's Government to stand up for the rights and liberties of the country; and he, for one, should ever protest against the Government Bill. He denied that there could be any valid objection to the granting of the Returns for which he had moved. The public had a right to be informed whether any reduction had been made since 1829, when the Committee to which he. Had alluded, sat. He repeated, that there could be no objection. Surely there was nothing mysterious about the matter. To be sure, it might not be pleasant to persons of higher station to have the thing exposed; and perhaps his observations might be equally unwelcome to them. But then he was not a spaniel, to wag his tail at the bidding of the persons in a high position. He moved for these returns solely for the benefit of persons in a humble sphere. He could assure the House that he had not the slightest personal feeling in the matter. He had never invented anything, and he thought it was not likely that he ever would; for he had not the inventive faculty. His motive in asking for these returns was, that he might bring forward a Motion to diminish the

893
expense of obtaining patents, and to remove the serious obstacles which lay in the way of the poor man in availing himself of his own ingenuity.
Motion made, and Question put—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That She will be graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before this House, Return of the Expenses incurred in taking-nut a Patent in England, Ireland, and Scotland respectively, independent of the specification, distinguishing the items or heads of that Expense: and specifying the several offices in which fees are demanded and made payable, and manner in which the ices are appropriated; also the highest and lowest expense of specification:
"Also Return of the Expenses incurred at the Attorney or Solicitor General's Offices for taking out a Patent in England, distinguishing I In- items or heads of those Expenses:
"Similar Return for Scotland
"And, Similar Return for Ireland.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISassured the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there was not the smallest objection to affording the information for which he asked. The fact was, however, that the whole of it was already on the table of the House in a perfectly accessible form. The lion, and gallant Member would find it in the appendix of the Report of the Committee upon the Privy Seal and Signet Offices, which was presented last Session; but if the hon. and gallant Colonel should discover that it was at all deficient on any point, the additional information should be furnished on a future day. He, therefore, hoped the House would not consent to a Motion which would entail needless expense.
MR. LENNARDsaid, that he should support the Motion of the hon. and gallant Officer; at the same time he regretted that much extraneous matter had been introduced by him. The evils of the patent laws had been pointed out in the evidence of a Committee of which he was Chairman many years ago. Some of those evils had been removed by Lord Brougham, but many still remained; of those the chief was the want of a tribunal competent to decide on the merits of inventions, and of the claims of applicants. Such a tribunal should be composed of a mixture of scientific men and lawyers. But the want of arrangement in the present patent offices was so bad that it was often impossible, for want of good indices, to ascertain whether the invention had been patented or not already. But the great evil was the expense—amounting to above 350 l. for England, Ireland, and Scotland, to say nothing of the colonies. This heavy expense was occasioned by the numerous
894
offices through which the applicant for a patent had to go, and which were useful I formerly as a protection to the Crown from being imposed on, but which were merely useless in these days. The heavy expense of obtaining a patent was manifestly contrary to good policy; we ought to encourage improvements by giving inventors the exclusive use of their discoveries for a limited period, after which the public should! have the benefit of it. It was well known that poor workmen were the chief inventors; but the heavy expense of a patent made it impossible for them to apply for one, so that cither the idea was never I worked out, or was sold to some capitalist, who gave to the inventor a small part of that which ought to be wholly his. He had long felt the evils of this system, and had thought of bringing in a Bill on the subject himself; but where there were so many vested interests to be dealt with, he felt that it was too great a task for a private Member, and could only be satisfactorily dealt with by the Government, and he hoped the Government would undertake it. Mb. LABOUCHERE trusted that the House would not be induced to enter at present upon a very important and one of the most difficult subjects that could engage their attention, namely, what would be a proper law for patents in this country, especially as, before a few days would elapse, his noble Friend Earl Granville would introduce into the other House a Bill, embodying the views of Her Majesty's Government upon that subject. He would assure the hon. and gallant Member for Lincoln that if there was any matter on which he wished for information that he could not find in the appendix to the report if the Committee on the Privy Seal and Signet Offices, the Government would feel very happy in affording it.
MR. AGLIONBYthanked the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) for his statement; and lie hoped that, as the hon. and gallant Colonel had often objected to the expense of unnecessary returns, he would not press his Motion.
MR. ALDERMAS SIDNEYregretted that the Government had objected to the returns, for he thought the fact, that the House would soon be called upon to consider a measure on the subject, was a reason why it was advisable to reprint the information in a separate form. He considered that the present law was a disgrace to the country.
Mr. S. CRAWFORDthought the returns should be granted, for the informa-

895
tion was not intended for Members only who had access to the reports of Committees, but also for the use of the public.
Mr. CAREWsaid, that papers had been laid on the table within the last ten days, containing every item of the information for which the hon. and gallant Member now asked. He alluded particularly to the evidence of Mr. Capelain, the patent agent, before the Committee of the House of Lords, a copy of whose proceedings had been communicated to that House.
SIR G. GREYsaid, his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade had stated that if the hon. and gallant Member could point out any information which Members were not already in possession of, he was perfectly ready to supply that information; but there was clearly no use in calling for trade returns setting forth that which was already well known to the House.
MR. DISRAELIhoped that his hon. and gallant Friend, having attained his object, for he understood that the Government virtually conceded all that his hon. and gallant Friend required, would not now press his Motion. The object was one of importance; and as the Government had promised to complete all information concerning it, he took for granted that his hon. and gallant Friend would not think it necessary to divide.
COLONEL SIBTHORPwas resolved to take the sense of the House, if it were only for the purpose of stimulating the Government, and enforcing their attention to this important subject.
The House divided:—Ayes 39; Noes 70: Majority 31.

MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
SIR W. SOMERVILLEmoved the Second Reading of the Bill.
MR. SCULLYsaid, the present mode of administering relief under the medical charities in Ireland was very partial, bad, and inoperative, and he believed that the principle of this Bill was an excellent one. But he thought there were certain alterations that ought to be made in the details of the measure, such as in the mode of paying the medical officers of the different districts, their residence, and the appointment of the governors; but these were matters, perhaps, which it would be better to consider when the Bill was in Committee. He would, therefore, ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland to give the Irish Members another early opportunity of discussing the Bill in Com-
896
mittee. If the right hon. Gentleman would consent to fix the Committee for an early day after Easter, he (Mr. Scully) and the other hon. Members with whom he had conversed on the subject, would not object to the present stage of the measure.
LORD NAASwould not oppose the second reading of the Bill, for he considered it a measure somewhat necessary in all parts of Ireland. The measure was certainly an improvement upon the Bill of last year, and he was glad to see the Medical Board united with the Poor Law Board. By the Bill, as he understood it, all the infirmaries would be done away with, and all the bequests, grants, subscriptions, donations, and other property now belonging to those infirmaries would be handed over to the management of other bodies. This, he thought, was an important alteration, and that the Government was bound to make out a strong case in its favour; he thought, also, that full time ought to be allowed for a careful consideration of the best mode of administering those charities; and he could not help suggesting that it might be doubted whether the same sort of relief would be given in the new hospitals as had heretofore been afforded in the infirmaries. According to his understanding of the matter, the district hospitals might not be, like the infirmaries, open to any poor person, but rather be limited to cases of destitution, and confined solely to paupers—in a word, the labouring classes might not be benefited to the same amount by the new institutions as they were by the old. The words of the Bill were vague, and might be differently interpreted in different places. The Government were bound to show why they had taken those funds out of the hands of the persons who had hitherto administered them; and if a strong case of mismanagement were not made out against them, he would be inclined in Committee to propose the Amendment he had submitted to the House last year, namely, to exclude county infirmaries altogether from the operation of the Bill.
COLONEL DUNNEwould follow the example of the other Irish Members who had spoken, and not offer any opposition to the second reading of this Bill. He believed, with them, that legislation was highly necessary; but there were parts in the Bill, very nearly affecting its principle, which ought to be discussed in Committee, and which they ought to have ample time to consider. He therefore trusted that the Bill would not go into Committee before Easter.
SIR P. NUGENTconcurred with hon. Members in approving generally of the principle of the Bill; but as regarded the existing infirmaries, he thought great care ought to be taken in dealing with vented interests
MR MONSELLsaid, that in many districts the poor possessed no means of medical relief, and, unfortunately, it was but too true that at present dispensaries, owing to the impoverished state of the country, were not kept up as in times past. There were two points in the Bill to which lie wished to direct attention. One of these related to the management by the board of guardians. Now, he knew no reason why they should have anything to do with the management. Why should they have anything to do with the districts within which medical relief was to be administered? In his opinion, that ought to be left to the central authority. The second point which he wished to notice was the appointment of medical officers. Why, he would ask, should that appointment rest with the board of guardians? On the contrary, it was his opinion that the district committee ought to appoint the medical officers, for they were the persons most interested in the proper discharge of the duties to be performed by those officers.
MR. F. FRENCHthought that his right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland had some reason to complain of the attacks made on him on account of the changes which he had introduced into the Bill. They all agreed in the principle of the measure, and they seemed to wish it pressed on as speedily as possible. In this he concurred for several reasons, and for this among others, that those portions of the country which stood' most in need of medical relief were the portions most neglected. He thought it important, if possible, to get through the Bill before Easter.
Mr. VESEY, although he had many objections to the details of the Bill, would not offer any opposition to it at its present stage, or at least to that portion of it relating to dispensaries. But he could not understand why the infirmaries were to be included in this Bill. The infirmaries were not in the same degree dependent on voluntary subscriptions as the dispensaries; and he was afraid that if the hospitals were placed under the boards of guardians, the effect of the Bill would be to shut out a large class who at present received relief from the infirmaries.
VISCOUNT BERNARDwished very much that due time should be given to Members of that Souse connected with Ireland to give the revisions of the Bill their careful so as to possess a fair opportunity their opinions, and he pressed this the more because the law respecting fever hospitals was in a very unsatisfactory state; and he hoped, therefore, that the Session would not be allowed to pass away without those hospitals being properly provided for.
SIR W. SOMERVILLEsaid, he agreed with those hon. Members who regarded this as one of the most important Bills that could be proposed for the benefit of Ireland, and he had endeavoured, in conducting it through the House, to conciliate the feelings of the Irish Members as far as possible in framing its provisions. The House was aware that several Committees of both Houses of Parliament had at different times sat to investigate this subject; and the general recommendation of those Committees had been that a separate medical board should be constituted to superintend these establishments. In bringing in his Bill of last Session he had introduced a provision in conformity with that recommendation; but as the Bill was passing through the House, he collected the feeling of the majority of the Irish Members to be that a single board should be entrusted with the management of these medical charities. Therefore, whatever his own opinion might have been, he bowed to the judgment of the House, and he had endeavoured in framing this Bill to comply with what he had believed to be the opinion of the Irish Members. He was glad to find the principle of the Bill in its altered state generally assented to; for the present state of the law was utterly inefficient, and it was unjust to the ratepayers, pressing heavily on the charitable and humane, and enabling those who were contented to neglect their duty to escape without paying any tax whatever. It was unjust also to the medical profession—a highly-educated body in Ireland, who were heavily worked and badly paid. He had introduced the infirmaries into the Bill because he thought the two systems of medical charity ought not to go on separately; and great as were the abuses of the dispensaries in Ireland, the abuses of the infirmaries were not much less. He did not speak of the way in which the infirmaries were managed—that, he thought, was highly creditable; but he thought the infirmary system emi-

899
nently unjust to the ratepayers, and very inadequate to the wants of the poor. Any one looking at the map of Ireland would Bee that some of the infirmaries were placed at the end of one county, and close to the borders of another, and yet perhaps a person living just at the other side of the boundary line, and close by the infirmary in the adjoining county, had to be carried a distance of forty or fifty miles, because he could only be received in the infirmary of his own county. In fact, the Poor Law Commissioners' report on the subject declared that, except within a radius of eight miles from the infirmary, the rest of the county was practically deprived of its fair proportion of the relief, although it was taxed as highly as the places in the immediate vicinity of the institution, and daily receiving its full benefits. It was therefore absolutely necessary that all who were taxed to support the infirmaries in Ireland should be brought within reach of their relief, and that, consequently, a new local distribution of these institutions should take place. No doubt, when they came to consider the Bill in Committee, they might or might not omit the word "infirmary" or the word "dispensary;" and when the proper time came, which he conceived would be in Committee, he should submit his reasons to the House for passing the Bill in its present form. The hon. Member for the county of Limerick seemed to object to some portions of the Bill; but it was to be hoped the House would recollect that the measure had been prepared in obedience to the wishes of hon. Members themselves on both sides of the Hoose. With regard to the mode of forming the districts, last year he had proposed that they should be settled by the central authority; but on this point again, in deference to what he understood to be the feeling of his hon. Friends on both sides, he had consented to modify the present measure so as to meet their views. The appointment of the medical officers for the district hospitals should certainly be vested in the District Committees; but he considered that, as the medical officers for the dispensaries were to be paid from the poor-rates, their appointment should rest with the boards of guardians. It was important that the Bill should be passed as soon as possible, and it was very desirable that before the next assizes, the different grand juries in Ireland should know what they had to rely upon, and what they had to do in order to
900
provide for the poor who were suffering from the want of relief. He would, therefore, fit the Committee on the Bill at present for a day before Easter; and then, if it should be required for the convenience of the Irish Members, it might be postponed till ah early day after the recess.
SIR J. YOUNGwished to know what classes would be entitled to relief Under the Bill?
SIR W. SOMERVILLEsaid, he apprehended the Bill was not at all intended for the pauper classes; but the same classes who, under the present system, received relief, would still be entitled to receive it. Under the poor-law medical relief could be administered to persons in the character of paupers; and an attempt had been made to stretch that provision, so as to include those who were not strictly paupers. That attempt, however, had failed, and hence arose the very necessity for this Bill.
Bill read 2°, and Committed for Wednesday, 9th April.
The House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock.