Commons Sitting of 6 June 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Population.
2a General Board of Health; Judges of Assize.
Reported.—Factories.
3a Municipal Corporations (Ireland).

FACTORIES BILL.
Order for Committee read.
The House resolved itself into Committee on this Bill.
MR. ELLIOTrose to move the Amendment of which he had given notice, and stated that the great alarm which was felt by the operatives as well as the owners of factories in the part of the country with which he was more immediately connected, rendered it necessary that he should request the House to grant him their indulgence for a short time whilst he endeavoured to put before them the position in which all parties connected with these factories would be placed should the Bill now before the House pass into a law. He had presented a number of petitions against this Bill from the operatives in the several factories in the town of Hawick and Innerleithen, as well as from their masters. He had also presented that evening a petition from thirty-four millowners in the counties of Roxburgh, Berwickshire, Selkirkshire, and Peebles. The operatives stated—and he wished the House to know that this was a statement in the truth of which all concurred, however much they might be opposed to the system of relay
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working—that the immediate effect of the change would be to cause the discharge of one-third of the entire number of relay workers; that these poor people thus thrown out of employ from no fault of their own, but merely in consequence of this lamentable course of legislation, must, in many instances, be thrown on the parish, no other means of employment being open to them. These people were at present, and have for years past been, working in this manner, contentedly and happily, and thus providing a subsistence not only for themselves but their families. All this, for some reason he could not understand, was now to be put an end to, and these industrious, and hitherto contented, people were to be ruined and sent to seek parish support; and he would here mention that the parochial board of Wilton, seeing that the number of persons claiming relief would be so greatly increased, had also sent a petition which he had presented this evening, praying that the Bill might not pass. Now, he wished to know why such a calamity as this was to be thrown on a large manufacturing district? When he asked this question he was told that great inconvenience arose from working by relays: first, that the women, young persons, and children, were kept hanging about the mills for fifteen or sixteen hours, because they could not go home during their intervals of rest, and, being thus left to themselves to wander about the streets, they were led into idleness, which was followed by demoralisation. Secondly, that the inspectors found it impossible to prevent the women and young persons from working in several different mills, thus evading the laws which fixes their labour to ten hours. He did not consider that these objections should have been urged by the English Inspectors. He fully believed inconvenience had been, and must have been, felt under the system as it was managed, or rather mismanaged, in the north of England. He would read to the House an extract from the report of Mr. Horner, dated the 30th April, 1849. Mr. Horner says—
"I may give, as an example of this mode of working by shifts, a case I met with in one of the mills working upon this plan, which I inspected on the 8th of March. Gut of 335 young persons and women there employed, I found 213 who began work at 6 o'clock in the morning, and were at work in the mill as late as half-past 7 in the evening. They had, of course, their hour-and-a-half for meals, as required by the Act, and, besides that, they were sent out of the mill, some

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from half-past 10 to 12, some from 11 to 1, some from 2 to 4, some from 4 to 6, and some came at 6 in the morning, worked till breakfast time at 8, came back again at half-past 8, and after working half an hour were sent out again from 9 till 11 o'clock."
Mr. Horner then compared this system of working with the advantages of working ten consecutive hours. No one would doubt that, under a system like this, inconveniences such as he had described must arise; but this was not the fault of working by relays, but the fault of the system by which relays were worked. A totally different system prevailed in his (Mr. Elliot's) part of the country, and all inconvenience was avoided by the rules in operation in the factories, in the welfare of which he felt so strong an interest. There the system was simple and plain. Bach set between the hours of 5½ in the morning and 8½ in the evening were out of the mill either three or three and a half consecutive hours. There was no running out and in of the mill, as described by Mr. Horner. There was no loitering about the streets, and there was no difficulty in ascertaining whether the women and young children who worked in one mill were also employed in others. The consequence was, the system had worked to the satisfaction of all parties, whether masters, operatives, or inspector. Mr. Stuart, the late inspector, approved of it, seeing, as he did, that the mills could work a great many more hours without any infringement of the spirit of the Act, and that a much larger number of persons could be employed. Mr. Stuart also approved of this system for a reason which he (Mr. Elliot) considered so creditable to the manufacturers in his part of the country that he would read an extract from one of Mr. Stuart's reports on the subject. [The hon. Member then read the extract, in which Mr. Stuart stated, that during the late period of great depression of trade, the manufacturers at Hawick, and at other places in the south and west of Scotland, had kept up the whole number of their relay workers during the time that their mills were working short time, in order that by earning a reduced rate of wages for the few hours they worked, all might be in receipt of such a sum as would keep them off the parish.] He begged to call to the recollection of the House, that hitherto all interference with adult labour has been disclaimed by those who have supported this description of legislation. Protection to women, young persons, and
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children had been the professed intention of the noble Lord, and all interference with adult labour had been denied and disclaimed; but he (Mr. Elliot) would show the House not only that this Bill was levelled at adult labour, but that Mr. Horner, the Inspector of Factories, knew full well that such a Bill must go that length, and that the intention is not confined to the object it professes, but is intended to shut the factories after ten hours' work. Mr. Horner said, in his report, dated the 31st Oct., 1838—
"It has been plausibly set forth by some persons that there would be great advantages to trade were the mills to be enabled by relays to work thirteen or fourteen hours a day. No one doubts that the longer manufacturing machinery can be kept in motion, the greater will be the produce; and if it could be kept going all the twenty-four hours of each day, without compromising the physical and moral health of the human beings by which it is worked, no one would dream of interfering with it. But the far greater proportion of mills cannot work without the aid of children, or of young persons or women; and the Legislature has decided that such persons shall be protected against the temptations held out to them by the capitalists to work in a manner that is inconsistent with a sound healthy state of the population, morally and physically—that is the whole of the question."
He (Mr. Elliot) begged to call the attention of the House to this declaration of Mr. Horner, and let them remember that this Bill allows of no women or young children to be employed in mills for more than the ten and a half hours, between six in the morning and six in the evening, one hour and a half being allowed for meal times—and consequently if Mr. Horner's statement is true, the motive power of the mill can be in operation for no longer time. Whenever he (Mr. Elliot) had urged that it would be better to exempt the mills in his part of the country, he was told that it was impossible to have one law for one part of the country, and another for another: that it would be unjust to allow these mills to work fifteen hours, whilst others were restricted to ten; and that if this were done, the manufacturers in the north of England would have just cause of complaint. He entirely denied this position. The injustice was all upon the mills in his part of the country, and the manufacturers would be ruined if so dealt with. The promoters of the present Bill profess to put all upon an equality; whilst, in fact, they are doing precisely the reverse. The mills in the north of England were owned by great capitalists, and every body who knew anything of trade or the manufacturing interest knew that

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large capitalists had great advantages over small capitalists, and that it was therefore necessary that small capitalists should put forth all their energies, and use every exertion to compete with their more fortunate brethren; and this they had done, and done successfully. They were left comparatively free of restriction, and by their enterprise and energy they have succeeded in keeping in employment a large number of people who are now to be forbid to earn their bread. He would now state another disadvantage to which they were to be subject. The mills in his part of the country were water mills, turned by streams greatly affected, as regards floods, by rain falling in the hills, and also as rapidly affected by the increased surface drainage of the hills themselves. One day the river would rise so rapidly as to stop the mills, and in a day or two more there would be a deficiency of water. In order to remedy this latter evil, the millowners had erected steam-engines and long chimneys to assist their water-power so as to secure the fifteen hours work allowed by law; and now that this has been done they are to be told that their capital thus invested is to be thrown away, and that they shall work no more than ten hours. Coal in his county were so dear that they could not work their mills entirely by steam—steam could only be used as an auxiliary. In summer the water ran exceedingly low; in winter there were great torrents, and the mills were sometimes stopped by ice for a length of time; so that it would be impossible for them to recover the lost time by the permission to work an extra hour a day for five days in the week. Against that they had to compete with the mills of the north of England, where, the inspector stated, nothing had been lost by the shortening of time, as they were enabled, by greater energy and driving their machines at a greater rate, to manufacture as large a quantity of goods in ton hours as they had formerly done in a longer time. It was impossible for the manufacturers in his district to increase their speed a single inch; they must go plodding on at the rate only which the supply of water would allow; and yet they were told that they were placed on an equality with the mills of England, and that it would be a great hardship to allow them to run longer hours. He appealed to the House against this injustice. The system of relays was no new system; it had existed in various forms for thirty years; and now the manufactories which had practised it successfully were at
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once to be proscribed by this change of system. Another objectionable part of the measure was that which fixed the hour for the commencement and stopping of the mills. In winter, it was impossible to say exactly when a water mill could commence work; the ice prevented it; and in the dry season it was impossible to say when they might be obliged to stop, as the water might run short at any time. It was certain that the measure, if carried in this form, would ruin the small millowners, and throw a large population entirely out of work. It was said that one law ought to regulate all the country; but when that law operated differently in different parts of the country, it was evident it could not suit the whole. He protested against the extension of the Bill to his part of the country; and as the best means of preventing it he would move the Amendment of which he had given notice.
Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 8, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the clause, in order to insert the words—
"It shall not be lawful for young persons and females to be employed or to work in any Factory for more than ten hours daily between half-past five o'clock in the morning and half-past eight o'clock in the evening; and it shall be lawful for said young persons and females to work by sets or relays: Provided always, That each such set or relay shall during the hours between half-past five in the morning and half-past eight in the evening, be absent from the Factory for a period of not less than three consecutive hours: Provided always. That on Saturdays the period of work of such young persons or females shall not exceed eight consecutive hours, exclusive of meal times, between the hours of half-past five in the morning and four in the afternoon,"
instead thereof.
SIR G. GREYsaid, the Amendment was directly contrary to the whole spirit and purport of the Bill. He quite admitted that a general law of this kind might operate with some inequality in different parts of the country; but that was an objection not to this Bill only, but to all legislation on the subject. The hon. Gentleman had raised the whole question—whether there should be any legislation at all on the subject, or, at all events, whether it should apply to mills worked by water power, or to those situate in Scotland. If he thought there was a special case for exemption, the best mode would be to propose it in a separate clause, not to propose an alteration of the measure, entirely different from its object, which would have the effect of sanctioning relays

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throughout the whole kingdom, subject only to the qualification that the hands should be absent three hours during the day. Looking at its physical effects, the, relay system was unobjectionable; but when its moral effects were considered, also the object contemplated by Parliament in passing the Act of 1847, namely, to secure the evening hours to the factory workers, an object which was productive of great advantage—he could not admit the principle of relays. The insertion of this clause would produce a very material alteration of the law as it stood, and it would be better to leave the law in its present state than to consent to a distinct legislative enactment that for fifteen hours these parties might be kept away from their homes. With respect to water mills, there was a clause to be considered hereafter in which the Committee might consider whether it was desirable to begin at a later hour in winter. There was also a clause with reference to making up time which had been lost, whether by a deficient or an over-abundant supply of water. He certainly regretted that any parties should be put to inconvenience. Were all manufactories as well regulated as those referred to by his hon. Friend, there would be no occasion for any law at all on the subject; but they were conducted very differently in crowded cities; and if a law of this kind were passed, it would be very difficult to exempt particular mills. But the proposal was to establish the relay system throughout all the manufacturing districts, and extend it to all the mills now subject to restriction; although that system had only lately been tried; and he certainly could not consent to this proposal.
MR. ELLIOTsaid, he had not made the statement solely with reference to Scotland. If the right hon. Gentleman would allow him to introduce a clause exempting the district he had referred to, he would be most happy to take the suggestion and withdraw the clause he had now proposed.
MR. FERGUSsaid, that if one thing was more to be deprecated than another, it was different laws for different parts of the country. He should not only vote against any restriction of the Ten Hours Act, but under any circumstances he should vote against the proposition of the hon. Member for Roxburghshire. He regretted that the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary should have given the sanction of his name and the Government
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authority to any departure whatever from the Ten Hours Act. Before sanctioning the Bill of the noble Lord the Member for Bath, the right hon. Baronet should have known what was his own meaning, and what was the meaning of the Legislature by the enactment of 1847. If it was the intention of the Legislature to allow the system of relays, the better course would have been to bring in a Bill declaring that such system should be permitted. If it was the intention of the Legislature to limit the labour of women and children to ton hours, in its ordinary sense, within reasonable bounds, further legislation would have been better left alone. It could not have been intended that the ten hours' labour required from women and children should be aggravated by being done at untimely hours. He would therefore vote for any proposition continuing the Ten Hours Act. It was true the half-hour was a very small matter for the labourers to give, or the manufacturers to obtain; the prosperity of the latter or the well-being of the former did not depend on any such slender thread; but uncertainty in legislation on a subject like this was a great evil. His confidence in the energy and skill of the manufacturers of this country led him to believe that they would easily accommodate themselves to almost any bonds which the Legislature might impose upon them; but nothing could reconcile them to legislation which fixed one number of hours one year, and another number the next. It was quite clear the Legislature never intended by the Act of 1847 that the women and children should work ten hours and a half. If, then, they legislated for ten hours and a half this year, what security was there against its being extended to eleven hours next year? He believed that all over the country the people were settling down into the ten-hour system of working; the restriction had produced no harm; and in a very few years, the period of working would have been regarded the same as twelve or fourteen hours was formerly. He would not sanction any restriction on the employment of machinery or on adult labour; nothing was more hostile to a right principle of legislation; but he had approved the Ten Hours Bill as a measure for the protection of those who were unable to protect themselves, and because there were great abuses in the way factories were formerly worked.
MR. EDWARDS: Having the honour to represent one of the most populous and important districts in the West Riding, and

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knowing well the feelings and wishes of the people, I may naturally he expected to say a few words upon the question; and I do not hesitate to do so, under a conviction that the House will attend to the few remarks I shall make, being a millowner myself, and having lived amongst these people since the day I was born. I hardly expected to have to say a word in defence of the original Bill of the noble Lord the Member for Bath, from what I call the insidious Amendments, remembering the power of argument and eloquence with which he advocated the cause of justice and humanity on its introduction; for if was to him we all looked as the champion of the people, to contend for the boon which had been conceded by the Legislature; and I see no reason why he should have deserted us. It is not for me to speculate upon the reasons which have influenced the noble Lord in sanctioning the substitution of another Bill for his own; it is sufficient for me to protest against it, frustrating as it does the hopes and just expectations of the body he represented, and I do so in the name of the factory operatives of the West Riding. The petitions for and against that Bill, judging from the returns in the Votes, are in the proportion of 6 to 1,000—the number of signatures, perhaps, about 2 to 1,000—and I feel warranted in asserting, from what has recently passed at various meetings in the country, that not only the bulk of the operatives are opposed to this invasion of the ten-hour principle, but that, previous to the publication of the letter signed by a manufacturer, the millowners and manufacturers, upon the whole, were favourable to the Bill of 1847. In Yorkshire, where the relay and shift system has not been pursued to any extent, the condition of the people is immeasurably improved by this Act of the Legislature, and it is impossible to deny that immeasurable benefits have accrued from its provisions, both in a social, moral, and physical point of view; and are we to be told by a small section of the community that this most valuable and humane law is about to be repealed, and the fetters of slavery to be riveted again? Before the Act of 1847 became the law of the land, nothing short of utter ruin was predicted by its opponents; but how thoroughly have their predictions been falsified! I can prove that the contrary effect has been produced, and to a far greater extent than the most sanguine of its supporters could have reason-
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ably expected; and the measure having worked satisfactorily, why should we endeavour to impair or render it nugatory? A great deal has been said respecting the inducement which this early cessation of labour gives to idleness, depravity, and vice; but how is this to be reconciled with the fact of the great increase in the number of evening schools, and the desire and determination on the part of young people to acquire a knowledge of reading, writing, &c.? Look also at the attendance at mutual improvement societies, mechanics' institutes, reading rooms, &c., which are increasing in number and importance every year; and, following the advice of a large section of this House, ought we not to foster and encourage that feeling? If not engaged in pursuits of this kind, the men are to be seen during many hours of the summer evenings busily and happily employed, not in beer-shops and public-houses—not in rioting and drunkenness, but in their cottage gardens, assisted by their little boys, whilst the mother and sister, perhaps, are profitably employed in making clothes for the family, or attending to other necessary domestic occupations, thereby elevating and improving their condition, instead of spending their time uselessly in loitering about the factories. Our motto in Yorkshire is to "Live and let live;" and I trust the same spirit prevails throughout the entire kingdom. The late Sir Robert Peel—and where could you look for better authority?—proposed ten hours in June, 1815; that is, a twelve-and-a-half-range, and out of that two hours and a half for meals and education, and the people have agitated for ten hours ever since. Parliament having granted it, is bound in honour to hold to its engagement. Ten hours now far exceed ten hours in 1815; for during that period machinery has more than doubled its speed. Rather than accept the proposition of the Government, I would hope that this Bill may be thrown out altogether, and that the people's voice may be heard during the recess by those who have the honour to represent them in this House.
LORD ASHLEY: Sir, there is one observation which I wish to make with reference to something which has fallen from the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and I shall never again touch upon the subject. He says, that the factory operatives are now deserted by one who was once their champion. Now, I never considered myself as their champion; but I

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did consider myself their friend, and I declare before God that I have done that which appeared to me to be best for their interests; and every successive hour, and all the intelligence I receive, convinces me that, by God's blessing, I have been enabled to judge aright. I may be permitted to state, solemnly and before this august assembly, that I have sacrificed to them almost everything that a public man holds dear to him, and now I have concluded by giving them that which I prize most of all—I have even sacrificed for them my reputation. But in the midst of these painful recollections, I have this consolation—that I have received letters from many operatives in various parts of the country, assuring me that I still retain the good opinion of great numbers of the people; and I have received some resolutions agreed to by the delegates of the factory workers assembled at Glasgow, who say—
"While we cannot approve of any abridgment of our present lawful rights, or give our sanction to any mutilation of privileges we possess, we are at the same time too fully satisfied of the honesty, zeal, and self-devotion of Lord Ashley to imagine for one moment that his Lordship has deserted the interests of those whose welfare he has had so long at heart."
The House will excuse me for reading this passage, but it may show public men that amid all the difficulties and disappointments that beset them, they have some real consolations. They go on to say—
"And whose well-being he has so perseveringly promoted—and are convinced that his concurrence with the Government proposition is best calculated to insure the present safety of the Bill, and its future permanency."
These parties, therefore, holding to the Ten Hours Act as their undoubted right, concur with me in thinking that I have done wisely in accepting the present compromise for the benefit, that inestimable benefit, of the limitation from sis to six. Now, if the Amendment of the hon. Member for Roxburghshire is carried out, it will establish, by the votes of this House, the very thing which the House has been trying to prevent. The Bill is brought in to get rid of the system of relays; but the Amendment would confirm and give to them a legal character. The hon. Gentleman admitted that the relay system worked badly in England. [Mr. ELLIOT: I said, as practised in England.] I thought the principle and the practice intimately connected. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Roxburghshire, in proposing this Amendment as a general clause, calls upon the
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House of Commons to affirm that which all experience has shown to be unequal and oppressive to the working classes, and which is not shown to be required by the operatives of that district, or conducive to their interests. I shall therefore vote against the Amendment.
MR. W. BROWN: I rise, Sir, to support the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburghshire, feeling desirous, as far as it is possible, to remove every restriction on adult labour. I deprecate any attempt to interfere with it by a side wind, and am quite at issue with the noble Lord the great promoter of the Ten Hours Bill as to the best means of benefiting the interests of the operative classes, and feel assured that any injury sustained by the masters must eventually fall on the men by the reduction of wages, which must now injure those who work by the piece or by contract, from the limit in time prescribed to the moving power. I see no reason to change my mind that this interference with labour will have the same bad effect on us as the edict of Nantes had upon France; probably not so suddenly, but equally sure. I cannot help looking at the deplorable situation of Bruges, Ghent, and other once flourishing manufacturing towns, which are now in a state of helpless inactivity. I am satisfied that the noble Lord the promoter of this measure has acted throughout with honesty of purpose; at the same time he is very much misinformed as to the immorality produced in manufactories, upon which he has based his argument. Misrepresentation on this head is too common. A prize essay had recently been published by the Rev. Henry Worsley, of Queen's College, Oxford, and rector of Eaton, Suffolk, on the causes of juvenile delinquency; and the whole spirit of that essay was a libel on, and in hostility to, the manufacturers. To this an answer has been published, in a letter addressed to the Lord Bishop of Manchester, by the Rev. Franklin Baker, from which I will read a few extracts:—
"It is sad to think how these practical masses of figures in blue books spoil our romances. But it cannot be helped. Murder will out—and so will truth. Well, the fact is, then, that this wild, excited, wealthy, whirling Lancashire, is one of the most virtuous—all things considered, perhaps the most virtuous—of the counties of England. Taking for example the elapsed year of this decade (1840 to 1847), Chester, Gloucester, Worcester, Warwick, Somerset—these are the counties which carry off the palm of vice. Middlesex, of course, from its being the head-quarters of wealth, luxury, and fashion, is high on the black list. Lancashire, North Lancashire especially, is low

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down in it, there being only six counties with a lower proportion of convicted offenders; namely, Cornwall, Durham, Derby, Northumberland, Cumberland, and Westmoreland. Then comes Lancaster—twenty-ninth in the list of forty English counties—with one in 744; a number which contrasts singularly with the returns from some of the more Arcadian and agricultural counties.
"The Rev. J. Clay, the enlightened chaplain of the Preston House of Correction, so fully confirms this statement in his printed report for the year 1844, that I subjoin the whole paragraph which relates to it: 'The connexion between occupation and crime is an interesting and important question. I am not aware that any trade can, in itself, be considered vicious; but if one demands more attention than another, leaving the person less exposed to the temptations of idleness; or if, on the contrary, an uneducated man's occupation be such as to allow a visit to the alehouse whenever he may be inclined, the probability is greater that, in the latter case, bad habits will be formed, and criminal acts committed. For the sake of throwing such light upon the subject as may be derived from the experience of this prison, I have availed myself of the information contained in the 'Occupation Abstract' of the population returns; and have been enabled to draw up a table, intended to show the proportion of criminals supplied by each of the principal trades, &c., in Preston, Blackburn, Chorley, and Burnley. It appears that the tendency to crime in the trades enumerated, beginning with the one most productive of offence, is in the following series: 1. Grooms, coachmen, postboys, &c.; 2. Bricklayers; 3. Colliers; 4. Plasterers and slaters, &c.; 5. Labourers; 6. Painters, plumbers, &c.; 7. Machine-makers; 8. Weavers; 9. Carters, &c.; 10. Joiners; 11. Butchers; 12. Blacksmiths; 13. Calico-printers; 14. Factory hands; 15. Sawyers; 16. Masons; 17. Tailors; 18. Shoemakers; 19. Domestics (females); 20. Factory hands (females).'
"The lowest proportion of crime is found in the counties which are most notorious for their largest amount of factory population; namely, Lancashire, the West Riding of Yorkshire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire; whilst the most criminal are Cheshire, Staffordshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, Warwickshire, and Leicestershire, on the whole more noted for dispersed and domestic manufactures.
"I may also adduce the following testimony to the superior character of the factory class, from the concluding remarks of the 'Report of the Assistant Poor Law Commissioners sent to inquire into the state of the population of Stockport,' dated February 9, 1842: 'In the course of these inquiries, the general character and condition of the operatives employed in the cotton trade have been peculiarly objects of our observation. We have seen that in an ordinary state of the trade, those of the operatives who are employed (as the mass of them are) in connexion with steam-power and machinery, appear to command, by the value of their labour, the means of enjoyment of the comforts of life to an extent and degree unknown to a large portion of the population of this country; and there is little doubt that persons so circumstanced must consume, in a degree which far exceeds the proportion of their numbers, the natural produce of this and of foreign countries, thereby contributing largely to the prosperity of other classes of their countrymen, as well as to
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those sources of revenue by which the national liabilities are in great part sustained. We find, in connexion with the large earnings of this class, industrious habits of no common stamp, regulated and secured in great measure by the peculiar nature of their employment; and a degree of intelligence, already much in advance of other classes of the working people, and still growing with the general growth of popular education. It appears, also, that, when in the enjoyment of prosperity, they avail themselves, to a great extent, of the advantages of provident institutions; and that partly through this, and partly through other circumstances, equally creditable to their character as a working people, they avoid almost altogether dependence upon poor-rates. On the occurrence of general distress, we find them neither a pauperised mass, nor readily admitting pauperism amongst them, but struggling against adversity, beating far and wide for employment, and in many cases leaving their country for foreign climates, rather than depend upon any other resources for subsistence than those of their own industry and skill. Those among them who have not been able or willing to leave a place where at present their labour is of little or no value, have been found enduring distress with patience, and abstaining, sometimes to the injury of health, from making any application for relief; while others, who have been driven reluctantly to that extremity, we have seen receiving a degree of relief sufficient only to support life, often with thankfulness and gratitude, and generally without murmur or complaint.'
"One other fact, too, must be briefly mentioned, as significant of the beneficial tendency of the factory system. It is stated in a 'Return from 474 cotton mills in Manchester and surrounding districts, carefully prepared by the proprietors and occupiers,' that 'no less than 82¼ per cent of the whole number of factory operatives can read; while it appears from the registrar's returns for the whole of England, that about one-half of the population do not know how to write their names.' This statement may be left to make its own impression in behalf of the system which has been so much maligned."
Lancashire, therefore, if you remove from it the Liverpool convictions, which is not a manufacturing town, is one of the most virtuous in the kingdom. Out of 22,036 prisoners brought before the magistrates, 10,707 were committed, a large portion of which were Irish. The whole spirit of the Rev. Henry Worsley's essay is a gross libel on both the manufacturing masters and men. No one can doubt, after reading Mr. Baker's pamphlet, that we have been enacting laws under the supposition of a degree of immorality in factories, which has no existence. We must not lose sight of the active competitors that thirty years of peace have created, and what the power of steam has done for them by uniting manufacturing districts and coal mines at much less expense than formerly—an advantage we, by our canals and good roads in former times, enjoyed almost exclusively.

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There is France, Switzerland, Prussia, Belgium, and the United States, all making rapid advances in manufacturing industry. It is true, our operatives are well off, and satisfied at present; but it arises from cheap food, and not in virtue of a Ten Hours Bill. Good wages enables them to furnish their cottages decently, clothe themselves well, and attend to the education of their children. It gives them self-respect, and makes them better men and better subjects, which I much fear your enactments will greatly injure. He felt strongly on this subject, for interference with industry was robbery of the poor. We had prevented trades unions interfering with the labour of others under severe penalties. The spirit of factory legislation was nothing but socialism and communism enforced by Act of Parliament. Could he persuade himself that this Bill would be of any advantage to the great mass of factory labourers, he would gladly support it; but he was convinced that its tendency would be the reverse; and Gentlemen must not be surprised if those whom they are now despoiling of their labour, their only capital, would by and by think themselves justified in asking for a portion of their estates.
MR. AGLIONBYdeprecated the attempt that was now made to repeal altogether the Act of 1847. He regretted that he was obliged to assent to the proposition of the Government, for he should have much preferred to give to the operatives the entire benefit of the Act of 1847. He acknowledged their full right to the Ten Hours Bill, but it would be most unwise in them to insist on those rights to the full extent. The hon. Member for Halifax had taken occasion to find fault with the noble Lord the Member for Bath on account of the course which he had taken; but he (Mr. Aglionby) believed that it was the only course by which the intentions of the Legislature could at all be carried out. The hon. Member for Halifax might be a friend to the operatives; but he did not think he was acting in the most prudent manner for them in opposing all compromise. Whatever measure the Government passed, required to be carried out in good feeling by both the masters and operatives. It was of the utmost importance to both that the question should be speedily settled. He looked upon the Amendment as an attempt to retrace their steps, and therefore it should have all the opposition in his power.
MR. J. WILLIAMSwished the hon.
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Member who moved the Amendment would state to the Committee how the petition from Hawick which he presented that night had been got up, because he understood that it was got up by the masters—that the men were compelled to sign it, and that many had been dismissed from their employment for not doing so. A meeting had been held in the town-hall on the subject, and it declared by a majority of four to one against the relay system.
MR. ELLIOTbegged the House would permit him to explain the circumstance to which the hon. Member for Macclesfield had referred. He was sorry to again obtrude himself upon the House; but, after the charge brought against him by the hon. Member, he felt he might without impropriety appeal to the justice of the House for a hearing. He felt satisfied he was too well known in that House by a large number of its Members to admit of its being believed that he was capable of coming before them upon false pretences. He would now state what had occurred. It was true that a counter-petition had been got up in Hawick, purporting to be signed by the workpeople in the mills, and other inhabitants, and containing allegations such as the hon. Member had referred to, and further stating that the workpeople in Hawick were suffering the most heartrending privations—hundreds being compelled to be in attendance in or about the mills fifteen hours a-day, which, with the time for going and coming, made sixteen hours out of the twenty-four. This petitition was forwarded for presentation to the noble Lord the Member for Bath, and was made over by that noble Lord to the noble Lord the Member for Dumfriesshire, by whom it was presented to the House. Having had some communication with the noble Lord the Member for Dumfriesshire on the subject of this petition, and considering it a matter of importance that Members of Parliament should not be led to make statements to the House founded upon false representations, he (Mr. Elliot) stated to the noble Lord that he was determined to ascertain the truth, on whichever side it might lie, and proposed to the noble Lord to go down to Scotland by the same night's train, that they might there, on the spot, make such inquiries as would lead to an exhibition of the truth. That he (Mr. Elliot) had no more means than the noble Lord of knowing which statement was true, except the confidence he felt in those from whom he

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had received the petitions which he had presented; but that he was resolved to clear this matter up, and hoped the noble Lord would be able to accompany him. The noble Lord was unfortunately prevented by circumstances he need not further refer to, from accompanying him; but both he and the noble Lord the Member for Bath having assured him that they had every confidence in the fairness of the investigation he would make, it was agreed that he should leave London that evening, and he accordingly did so, and arrived at Hawick to the surprise of every person there the following day, when he proceeded at once to the house of Mr. MacRae, the minister of the Established Church in the town. He ought here to state that Mr. MacRae had signed the counter-petition, to which also the signature of Mr. Campbell, the Episcopalian minister, had been attached—both these gentlemen being opposed to the system of working by relays. On seeing Mr. MacRae, he (Mr. Elliott) had asked him whether or not he knew the allegations it contained to be true? He stated that he believed them to be so at the time he signed it; but he had now cause to believe some of them were grossly exaggerated, and that had he been aware of that circumstance at the time, he should not have signed it. He (Mr. Elliot) then informed Mr. MacRae that it was his intention to make an inquiry with a view to elicit the truth, and proposed the following course, namely, to issue handbills through the town, inviting all the female workers and young persons to attend the Tower Inn at ten o'clock the following morning, the parents of the young persons to attend at eleven o'clock, and the masters, if they wished to see him, at twelve o'clock; and he had then requested Mr. MacRae to be present at the examination of these parties, in order that he might see the inquiry was fairly and properly conducted. To this Mr. MacRae kindly consented. He should add, that he also saw the Rev. Mr. Campbell, who, though he admitted that the statement in the petition of the workpeople being kept fifteen or sixteen hours about the mills was not strictly correct, said he considered himself warranted in signing it, because, though they in fact were only ten hours about the mills, their parents made them work during the hours they were at home in the day—thus keeping them that number of hours on the stretch. Now, he must call the particular attention of the House to this fact, as af-
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fording one more proof of the futility of this description of legislation, and of the fairness of the arguments used against the relay system. He then saw the person who had acted as Chairman of the meeting at which the counter-petition was resolved upon, and, having explained to him the object of his coming down, requested him to bring eight or ten workmen who had signed that petition to him, as he was desirous of proving, if it were true, that this petition was signed by the operatives in the mills. This person at once replied, that, to say the truth, he did not know of any workmen in the mills who had signed it. He (Mr. Elliot), however, believed that two men had signed it. Next day the inquiry he proposed took place, when the women and young children were examined, factory by factory. With the exception of, he believed, four or five, all declared their strong desire to continue relay working, and positively denied that any influence had been used to cause them to sign the petitions forwarded to him for presentation to the House of Commons; and he must now particularly call the attention of the House to those four or five cases of refusal to sign. He had asked those young persons why they did not sign, and the answers he received proved at once that no such influence had been used. They said they preferred the Ten Hours Bill for continuous working to working by relays. He then had asked, when you refused to sign, was anything said or done to persuade you to sign? The answer was, "No, nothing; we knew the petitions were preparing. When they were ready, we were told we might go and sign them, and when we said we did not wish to do so we were told 'to do as we likit.'" So much for the truth of these allegations. When the investigation was completed, he drew up a memorandum of what had passed between him and Mr. MacRae, and sent it to that gentleman to see if it was correct. [The hon. Member then read the correspondence that had passed between Mr. MacRae and himself on the subject.] It must be remembered that Mr. MacRae is opposed to the relay system—that he had signed the counter-petition, and may fairly be said to have embraced that side of the question; yet, on the termination of the inquiry, he acknowledges that he is satisfied the workers in the mills were in favour of working by relays, and the statements in the counter-petition greatly

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exaggerated. After this explanation, he (Mr. Elliot) thought he had a right to call upon the House to relieve him of any such charge of concealment as the hon. Member for Macclesfield had thought proper to bring forward against him.
MR. J. WILLIAMSassured the hon. Member for Roxburghshire he had no intention to bring any charge against him. All he meant to do was to bring to the notice of the House that a counter-petition had been presented, the allegations in which, he had been informed, were true.
MR. E. B. DENISON, as the representative of the largest number of operatives in the kingdom, wished to say one or two words. He merely rose to do an act of justice to the noble Lord the Member for Bath, because he thought he was somewhat unfairly attacked by the hon. Member for Halifax, when he accused him of having deserted those by whom he had stood so long and so steadily. The working people would rather have had a Ten Hours Bill, without alteration; but he believed that they were most grateful to the noble Lord for what he had done in time past, and that they would feel equally grateful to him for the course he had taken on the present occasion in doing his best to accomplish the settlement of a vexed and difficult question. He thought he had acted wisely in accepting a compromise; and he believed the operatives of Yorkshire would feel as grateful to him for the remainder of their lives as they had hitherto done. He should certainly vote on the present occasion in support of the Bill.
MR. BROTHERTONsaid, that however zealous the hon. Member for Halifax might be in the cause of the operatives, he believed that the attempt to carry out his views to the fall extent would only end in the defeat of his own intentions. He had been a supporter of the factory question before the hon. Gentleman was born; he had given his support to the factory measure of the late Sir R. Peel; but the hon. Gentleman was mistaken in supposing that that measure was a Ten Hours Bill. It was a Ten-and-a-half Hours Bill—the very Bill now proposed by the Government; and believing that this measure would confer more benefit on the working classes than any law which had ever received the sanction of the Legislature, he should give it his support. With respect to the Amendment, he believed that if the relay system were adopted, children would in many cases have to rise at half-past five
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o'clock, and be at work at half-past eight in the evening, although they might not be at work more than the allowed time. He should therefore oppose the Amendment.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, he was sorry that a question of this magnitude had the misfortune of being discussed at a time when Members did not like to pay any attention to a subject which required investigation and thought. But depend upon it this question was well worthy of being discussed and understood by the House. He was not then going to enter upon the general question of the Bill of 1847, but would confine himself strictly to the Motion before the House. The Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Roxburghshire involved this question—not whether young persons and women were to be worked for more than ten hours a day, but whether in carrying out this system it was to be made imperative on all adults, and even on machinery, that they should not work for more than ten hours. The hon. Member for Roxburghshire proposed a plan by which they might obtain all the objects which the House had ever proposed to itself—that was to say, the limitation of the hours of labour for children and women of any age to ten hours, without absolutely restricting the labour of adults and machinery to the same number of hours. Every Member of that House would admit that if the object of Parliament could be attained with regard to children and women, without putting an end to the working of adults and machinery at the expiration of ten hours, it would be worth while to attend to any proposition for that purpose, and not to prevent it by law. It was clear that the hon. Member for Salford did not at all understand the proposition, for he assumed that under this system persons were to commence working at half-past five o'clock, and that they might be required to be at work at half-past eight on the same day. That was no part of the system proposed by the hon. Member for Roxburghshire, nor was it absolutely necessary in the working by relays as now practised in different parts of the country. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would bear him out in saying that he had had submitted to him several plans under which the system of relays could be put into operation without at all violating or infringing the object which the House had in view in limiting the labour of children and females to ten hours a day.

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What he should propose to the House was this—that as the question was one of great magnitude—as many Members of the House believed that relays could be worked without the inconvenience charged upon them—seeing that in the towns to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Roxburghshire referred, both the masters and workpeople were anxious that the relay system should be continued by law—and seeing also that the Committee was not in possession of sufficient information on the subject to enable them to come to a sound conclusion—the question should be referred to a Select Committee. He would give the Committee two cases to show what the result of the Bill would be if passed into a law. He had received the following facts from some large manufacturers in the county of Somerset. They furnished him with the number of persons at work in their mills, and said that the moment this Bill passed, from thirty to forty persons would be discharged from their employment, and this in a parish or rather cluster of parishes where there was an excess of pauperism, and complaints of want of employment. Here was another case. The Messrs. Malcomsons had a large cotton manufactory at Portlaw in the county of Waterford. Their investment exceeded 100,000 l., and they had worked for the last three or four years by relays, because they had not been merely permitted but encouraged by the late Mr. James Stuart, the inspector. They declared that they would have experienced a loss for the last four years had they not been permitted to keep their machinery at work for a longer period than they would be enabled to do under this Bill. They state that on the very day that this measure passed into a law, more than 100 persons who were now regularly employed every day, wet days and dry, with their wages constantly paid every week or every fortnight, would be discharged from the mills and thrown back into that mass of misery and pauperism which unfortunately spread over too large a portion of that part of the united kingdom. Now, when they were called on to pay for the support of Irish paupers, when hon. Gentlemen from Ireland complained that the poor-law was oppressive, was it right or reasonable that they should come to a determination, without any inquiry, without any investigation, by which from 100 to 120 persons would be discharged from their employment, and prevented from earning their own living?
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He had been at Portlaw last year; he had seen how the system worked, and was therefore able to state that it was advantageous to all concerned; and he would rather, whatever were his opinions on questions of political economy, leave the House, never to return to it, than be a party to an Act of Parliament which would discharge more than 100 persons from an honest, an honourable, and well-paid employment, originating in the ignorant sen-timentalism of the party who advocated the other side. He was not going to argue the question of the Bill of the noble Lord the Member for Bath, or of the Government. What he asked for was, a Select Committee for the specific purpose of ascertaining how far the system of working by relays was prejudicial, as some assumed it to be—how far it could be carried out consistently with the maintenance of the objects which Parliament had in view—and whether it was necessary to put a stop to the labour of adults and machinery in the great manufactories of the kingdom. When the Motion of the noble Lord the Member for Colchester came under discussion, he would take the opportunity of bringing before the House certain facts which he thought to be important with regard to the general question. If the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary did not grant the Select Committee for the special purpose mentioned, he (Mr. Bright) could be no party to a measure which would restrict working in factories, and therefore he would give his cordial support to the proposition of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Roxburghshire—a proposition which if carried could not of course be restricted to Scotland, but must apply to all parts of the united kingdom.
MR. W. J. FOXsaid, the proposition for referring this subject to a Select Committee tended to reopen a question that had been already settled and repeatedly decided by the Legislature. So far back as Sir James Graham's Factory Act, the Legislature intended to put a stop to the system of relays. It was evident that the system (except in a few such exceptional cases as those mentioned by the hon. Member for Manchester) must generally have the effect of increasing rather than of diminishing the numbers employed, because relays were a mode by which the employer got his work done by a smaller number of hands. The Government inspectors all declared that if relays were permitted, it would be impossible to guard

845
against the evasion of the law; and they also testified to the good results arising from the Ten Hours Act of 1847. But what the House had now to do with was, the faith and honour of the Legislature. The Act of the late Mr. Fielden, regarded as a boon, had been gratefully accepted by the mill operatives, its benefits to whom were notorious to the country; while regarded as a compact, it had been observed faithfully by the great majority of the millowners, and no proof existed that their interests had been at all injured by the Act. Earnestly as the operatives had desired that measure, arduously as they had toiled and struggled for it for many a long year, looking to it as a great object to be accomplished during their lives, and bequeathed by them to their children, as well as for their own individual advantage, it must indeed be a bitter disappointment when they found that, by the imperfect machinery of the Legislature, that House had failed to attain its own distinctly avowed purpose. There could not be a doubt, he thought, in any calm and dispassionate mind, that the House in 1847 meant to give a thoroughly honest Ten Hours Act. It was no fault of the working people that the Act did not turn out as it should have done; it was the fault of lawyers and legislators; and the one thing he apprehended which the House had to do—and he was sorry that they could not entirely stick to that one thing—would be to give the working people the reality of that of which they already have the semblance and the implied promise. He hoped, however, that the Committee would reject the present Amendment, which went to nullify all the previous legislation that had taken place on the subject.
MR. S. CRAWFORDopposed the Amendment, because the unanimous feeling of the operatives of Rochdale, whom he had the honour to represent, was in favour of the Ten Hours Act; and they demanded, as an act of justice, to have the original compact implied in that measure fully and faithfully adhered to.
Question put, "That the words 'save as hereinafter mentioned' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 246; Noes 45: Majority 201.

List of the NOES.

Baring, H. B.

Brockman, E. D.

Bass, M. T.

Brown, W.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Carter, J. B.

846

Caulfeild, J. M.

Lockhart, A. E.

Charteris, hon. F.

Martin, J.

Clements, hon. C. S.

Matheson, A.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Matheson, J.

Craig, Sir W. G.

Melgund, Visct.

Crowder, R. B.

Molesworth, Sir W.

Dalrymple, Capt.

Mowatt, F.

Davie, Sir H. R. F.

Romilly, Col.

Divett, E.

Scott, hon. F.

Ellice, E.

Somers, J. P.

Fitzwilliam, hon. G. W.

Spearman, H. J.

Fordyce, A. D.

Thornely, T.

Forster, M.

Tollemache, hon. F. J.

Fortescue, hon. J. W.

Trelawny, J. S.

Hawes, B.

Villiers, hon. C.

Heyworth, L.

Wall, C. B.

Houldsworth, T.

Willyams, H.

Hutchins, E. J.

Wilson, J.

Hutt, W.

TELLERS.

Keogh, W.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Lacy, H. C.

Bright, J.

LORD ASHLEYwas desirous of supplying what he conceived to be an omission in this clause. By the existing law, young children were not to work more than a certain number of hours, but no limit was fixed within which those hours should be; it would therefore be possible to employ children coming within that Act at any hour; although by the present Bill it was proposed that "young persons and females" should not be employed before six o'clock in the morning, or after six in the evening. If the Amendment he had to propose were not adopted, the effect would be that there would exist two Factory Bills. By the present law a child might commence work at half-past five o'clock in the morning, although, by this Bill, an adult would not go to work till six. Then, again, by the Act to which he was referring, a child might be kept on the premises till half-past eight in the evening, although an adult, under the provisions of the Bill before the Committee, would leave the premises at 6. This disparity of the law would operate very prejudicially; and to obviate the evil he should propose that the words "no child" be inserted before the words "no young person," the effect of which would be to make the law uniform in its application to all young people and females.
Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 12, after the word "Act" to insert the words "no child."
SIR G. GREYbegged to say the omission was not accidental, but that all alterations in reference to children were purposely left out of the Bill. The object of the Bill of the noble Lord the Member for Bath was to require that the labour of all young children should be continuous. Now,

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in ninety-nine out of every hundred cases under the Bill of his noble Friend, labour would commence at six in the morning and terminate at half-past five in the afternoon; and if that were extended to children continuously it would be an extension of the limitation of labour. The present Bill did not extend the limitation; the children were left in the exact position in which they were after the passing of the Twelve Hours Bill, with the exception of being worked at present by relays, the intervals being devoted to attendance at school. He therefore thought that they would be departing from the object and spirit of the Bill were they to consent to the introduction of the limitation suggested by the noble Lord.
LORD ASHLEYsaid, that his Bill did not contemplate any limitation of labour to the hour of six in the afternoon. He wished to know if children of tender years should not be permitted to enjoy the same indulgence as adult women. A great number of millowners were in favour of that course. [Sir G. GREY: Only one or two.] He was in possession of a letter from a most respectable and influential millowner in Manchester, in which he sincerely wished success to his (Lord Ashley's) exertions, and stated that public opinion condemned the coercion of children to labour at hours in which adults were free.
SIR G. GREYcould not consent to the introduction of the words into the clause, because, though children worked at hours in which adults did not work, yet their work was not continuous compared with that of the adults.
MR. AGLIONBYconsidered that it became the Legislature to secure to the working classes that which it had undertaken to give them. With regard to the Amendment of the noble Lord, it had appeared to him (Mr. Aglionby) that the omission of "children" from the Bill was an inadvertence, but he was sorry to find from what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary that it was intentional.
MR. EDWARDS: I certainly laboured under the same impression as the hon. Member for Cockermouth, and am quite surprised to find that this Motion of the noble Lord the Member for Bath has become necessary; for I had been led to believe that the omission of the word "children" was entirely occidental, and was to be remedied by the Government. I hold in my hand
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the Times newspaper of the 14th ult., which contains a report of a speech made by Mr. Grant, secretary of the Lancashire Short Time Committee, apparently from authority, in which the subject is particularly alluded to; and the substance of the conversation between the noble Lord and Sir George Grey, as to the insertion of the word "children" is given, from which the factory delegates, to whom he addresses his speech, must have imagined that there was no doubt the word "children" had been accidentally omitted in the Government amendments. The words attributed to Mr. Grant are as follows:—
"When the Government scheme came out, there was no provision made that children should be allowed to leave the factory at six o'clock in the evening. He mentioned that matter to Lord Ashley, who brought it under the consideration of Sir George Grey. Sir George Grey, at first, considered the alteration unnecessary, but eventually gave way, and promised to introduce a provision in his amendment, by which children should be placed on the same footing as females and young persons. By this means, the labour in factories would be limited to the hours between 6 A.M. and 6 P.M."
I quite agree with the noble Lord that children, as well as adult females, should be included in the Bill; for if they do not receive protection, the consequence must be that many young females will be thrown out of employment, and their places filled by children of tender years.
MR. BRIGHTdid not think the question was clearly placed before the Committee either by the noble Lord the Member for Bath, or by the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary. The House should bear in mind that legislation for children under 13 years was different from that which regulated the labour of persons above that age. At present a boy or girl under 13 years could be employed only six and a half hours each day. But if they chose to work only three days in the week, they could work ten hours each day. 3If they chose to commence so early as not to work after one o'clock in the day, they could work seven hours per day, or forty-two hours per week; and that referred to all factories with the exception of silk, in which a child of 11 years might work ten hours. The object was twofold: first, to allow of their being educated, having three hours per day to devote to mental improvement; and, secondly, to allow them to work by relays. These children would not be employed for six and a half and seven hours, if not employed under the system of relays in the morning and afternoon. Now, what was

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the proposition of the noble Lord? Why, that these children who worked seven hours per day were to be reduced to five and a quarter hours per day. He asked the House if anything so monstrous had ever been proposed, as that strong, robust boys, of 12 and 13 years, should be prevented, by statute, from working more than five and a quarter hours per day at an employment confessedly the least laborious? The object of the noble Lord was to prevent the possibility of any mill in which adults were employed being employed more than ten hours per day. The prompters of the noble Lord, as well as the noble Lord himself, might endeavour to conceal their real object, but he asserted that object was not sympathy for the children employed, but a wish to stop the labour of the adults engaged. That was the real object the alterations had in view; and therefore he hoped the House would not sanction or acquiesce in it. It would be easy to show the evil consequences that had followed from past legislation on the same principle as regarded interference with the hours of labour. He held in his hand a letter from one of the most respectable and influential concerns in Manchester, the Messrs. Kennedy and Co., which contained some important statistics of poor-law relief caused by legislative interference with the hours of labour in factories. It showed that in a certain week in the year 1845, the whole number of children relieved was only 401; whilst in a certain week in 1849, they had risen to 1,239. There had been a corresponding increase in the poor-rate, by reason of the numbers driven from the factories by previous legislation. In his opinion there was some inconvenience in having persons working only six or seven hours per day; but let the present measure pass, and the hours would be reduced to five and a quarter per day. As regarded compromise on the question, he should say the noble Lord the Member for Bath never proposed such an alteration in his Bill of 1847; and he (Mr. Bright) then wished to know if that House, after the experience it had had, was going to plunge deeper into the difficulties inseparable from legislation of this character. And, whilst referring to the matter of compromise—if compromise there was—he should say it was this, that if the Government proposed an addition of two hours, it was thought there would be no strong opposition to that proposition; but it was never said that Government should add any further restric-
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tion with regard to children under 13 years. No child could work more than seven hours per day; and in order to work that time, he should commence at an hour that would enable him to finish by one o'clock in the afternoon; and, if he chose to work only three days in the week instead of six, then he might work ten hours per day. Now, he wished to know if any Gentleman considered such an amount of labour to be hurtful, or whether it was necessary to make any alteration in it? If the alteration contemplated were adopted, and that children could not work more than five and a quarter hours per day, the consequence would be a diminution of remuneration as well as of labour; and probably the result might be that they would be driven from the factories, and added to those to whom he had already referred as being thrown dependants on the poor-rate. The letter went on to state that at the time of the passing of the Eleven Hours Bill, the Messrs. Kennedy and Co were employing upwards of 130 children under 13 years of age; yet, in a short time, so annoyed were they by the interference of the inspectors appointed under the Act, that they became disgusted, and dismissed from their employment—many other proprietors doing the same—the entire 130 children. So that the only effect of the protective clause introduced into the Act was to cause the dismissal of these children. He (Mr. Bright) was satisfied that the tendency of legislation, such as they had heard advocated there that night, was neither convenient for those engaged in trade, nor benevolent towards those employed; and that they could not follow worse counsel than that suggested by the noble Lord and his friends, namely, to make the Act more restrictive than it was in 1847. The noble Lord the Member for Bath had referred to a letter received by him from a gentleman in Manchester. Now, he (Mr. Bright) knew the gentleman very well to whom allusion had been made—for the noble Lord had not mentioned his name—and he also entertained a great respect for him. But perhaps the noble Lord was not aware that there prevailed a general wish for uniformity of working hours amongst the factory proprietors. Nothing could be more fatal to the trade than the course which it was desired to pursue; and nothing could be more fatal, he would add, to their own legislation: for let them press the matter a little tighter than they had done, and the time was not distant when

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they would be called upon to retrace the whole of their legislation with regard to this question.
MR. BROTHERTONsaid, he felt that this question must be settled by authority. His hon. Friend the Member for Manchester had quoted a letter of a respectable firm which had been the first to break the law. [Mr. BRIGHT begged pardon—that firm did not break the law.] At all events they evaded it. He was in possesion of a letter from a manufacturer—[Cries of "Name!"]—he did not feel bound to give the name—who took a totally different view from that expressed by the hon. Member. The great recommendation of this proposal to his mind was, that it would make everything perfectly simple. If it were passed, all could commence work at six in the morning, and leave off at six at night. There would be no need even of the superintendence of inspectors. All the world would be able to see when the people commenced and when they left off work. Such uniformity would, he was sure, give great satisfaction to the trade, and produce all the good consequences which were anticipated. He was not at all apprehensive of the fatal results expressed by his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, and he recommended the Committee to adopt the Amendment.
MR. BRIGHT, in explanation, said the firm to which his hon. Friend alluded had neither broken the law nor evaded it. When they were summoned to appear before the magistrates of Manchester, the prosecution was, he believed, in every case unsuccessful, and finally their view of the law was held to be correct. No man, therefore, had a right to say that they had either broken the law or evaded it. His hon. Friend now said that the object was to prevent the men and the machinery from being worked more than ten hours and a half. That object was not stated in 1847, and therefore the course pursued was neither fair nor candid.
MR. MUNTZsaid, supposing the object to be to limit the employment of the men to ten hours and a half, would his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester say that they worked for that period? There was a great difference between the ages of thirteen and eight. Was it right to require children to work as they did, or would any man like his own children to work so long? He contended that there was no occasion to work children to death before they were half grown. His hon.
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Friend had called upon them to look at the number of pauper children who had been created by restriction as to time. He would ask him who had been doing the work? Somebody had done it; and if children had not been made paupers, adults would. They might as well have child-paupers as any other paupers. The truth was, and it was of no use to attempt concealment, that masters manufactured at such a fine profit that they wanted to get more work out of their people than they ought to do; and, not being able otherwise to obtain a profit at existing prices, they wanted to edge off on another principle. He had voted for the former Bill as a bonâ fide Ten Hours Bill. He believed, too, that the House so regarded it, and the addition of two hours would make the people think that they were not honestly represented.
SIR G. GREYsaid, the sole object of the Government was to leave the children protected as they were by the regulations which were not touched by the Act of 1847, believing that those regulations had worked admirably, and could not be improved.
MR. M. GIBSONsaid, this proposition was not included in the Ten Hours Bill, and he, for one, was taken by surprise. Seeing how completely hon. Members had failed to carry out their own intentions, he hoped the House would not give a sudden assent to this new proposition. No one complained that children were now worked for a longer period than was desirable. By adopting this suggestion the House might be reduced to the necessity of again entertaining the question in another Bill, and become involved in endless difficulties.
MR. WALTERsaid, that the right hon. the Secretary of State for the Home Department had stated truly that the limitation of the hours of labour from six in the morning till six in the evening was not contained in the Act of 1847. The limit was only with respect to the quantity of work, and not as to the hours between which the work was to be performed. A new principle had however been introduced into the present Bill—that of the limitation of the hours for labour; and he presumed that the Motion then before the Committee was a necessary corollary from this new principle of the Bill. He considered the limitation of the hours for labour, as applied to children, to follow necessarily the limitation of the hours for labour as applied to

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young persons and women. One very obvious consideration in connexion with this subject was that these children had a strong claim when they left the factories at the close of their work upon the protection of those young persons and friends who were best known to them; and it appeared to him that to send the children to their homes from the factories unprotected, at so late an hour as half-past eight in the winter evenings, would be to expose them to risks and dangers to which they would not be exposed under the original Ten Hours Act. For that reason he would support the proposal of the noble Lord the Member for Bath. Considering, also, that they added by this Bill two hours per week to the labour of the young persons and women, it seemed but reasonable that a certain deduction should be claimed on the other side from the hours of labour of the children, and the quantity proposed appeared to him a very fair deduction. With respect to the hon. Member for Manchester, he thought that he had not consulted either his own dignity or the credit of the cause which he supported, by throwing imputations upon the supporters of the Bill, which he (Mr. Walter) entirely disclaimed. He did not wish to interfere with the labour of adults, nor did he wish to limit the hours of labour for young persons and women beyond the period which they themselves might choose. If they preferred to work twelve hours out of the twenty-four, he would not interfere with their wishes upon that point. He considered the proposal of the noble Lord with respect to the labour of children an extremely reasonable one, and would give it his cordial support.
SIR G. GREYexplained that what he had stated was, not that the Act of 1847 contained no limitation of the hours of labour, but that no alteration had been made by that Act with respect to the regulations affecting the labour of children as settled by the Act of 1844.
MR. STANSFIELDhoped, considering the unexpected manner in which the subject had been brought forward, that the noble Lord would not persist in his Amendment.
Mr. TRELAWNYsaid, it appeared to him that there was a very loose habit of cheering in that House. The hon. Member for Birmingham had talked about the abstracting of an undue profit, and hon. Gentlemen opposite had cheered him vigorously. Suppose the manufacturers were
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to retaliate by proposing some cumbrous machinery for landed property. The predictions which he had formerly made with regard to the difficulties of working a Ten Hours Act had been fulfilled. The doctrines preached on this subject were, he believed, doing great injury to the working classes, leading them to look to something separate from their own exertions. The more sensible men amongst the working classes were not desirous of such legislation, feeling confidence in those who were ready to extend to them the suffrage, and who had taught them a totally different doctrine. It had been said that the working classes generally were in favour of this measure. Would those who supported it on that ground extend to them the suffrage, which they also desired to obtain? He really believed that he consulted the interest of the working classes, by opposing the Amendment.
MR. SLANEYsaid, the question was whether or not the limitation of the hours of labour as regarded children should be within the same periods as those of young persons and women. If the hours during which they worked were co-extensive, then he should agree with the noble Lord that they were only to work seven hours during the day, or ten if they worked only three days a-week; and, therefore, why he opposed the proposal of the noble Lord was that he firmly believed it would have the effect of reducing the hours of labour in the factories to ten hours entirely, and would thereby prevent adults getting more than ten hours' wages, which would be most injurious to the great mass of the working classes in the kingdom.
MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEYsupported the Amendment on the grounds of humanity. It had been his lot to see in a manufacturing town little children going to their work in the factories at five o'clock in the morning. If, therefore, the Amendment were not adopted, they might be obliged to rise at half-past four or five to get to their work by half-past five; and, if the children were obliged to go to their work half an hour before the rest of the family, the whole family must be disturbed.
MR. HEYWOODsaid, he had lived in a manufacturing district, and had observed that there was no greater characteristic of such a district than the large number of children. He considered it was of great advantage to the families to have a demand for the labour of their children, and that it was not injurious to the health of those

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children that they should have a moderate degree of labour. He should therefore support the original clause.
Question put, "That the words 'no child' be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 72; Noes 102: Majority 30.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Hamilton, G. A.

Adair, R. A. S.

Heald, J.

Adderley, C. B.

Hornby, J.

Aglionby, H. A.

Hudson, G.

Arundel and Surrey, Earl of

Jocelyn, Visct.

Lindsay, hon. Col.

Bankes, G.

Moore, G. H.

Bateson, T.

Mullings, J. R.

Beckett, W.

Muntz, G. F.

Beresford, W.

Napier, J.

Bernal, R.

Newport, Visct.

Best, J.

Packe, C. W.

Blackstone, W. S.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Blandford, Marq. of

Plumptre, J. P.

Bremridge, R.

Prime, R.

Brocklehurst, J.

Salwey, Col.

Bromley, R.

Sandars, G.

Brooke, Lord

Sidney, Ald.

Brooke, Sir A. B.

Stafford, A.

Brown, H.

Stanley, hon. E. H.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Strickland, Sir G.

Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B.

Stuart, Lord D.

Crawford, W. S.

Thompson, Col.

Denison, E.

Verner, Sir W.

Duncombe, T.

Verney, Sir H.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Vesey, hon. T.

Duncombe, hon. O.

Vyvyan, Sir R. R.

Duncuft, J.

Wakley, T.

Du Pre, C. G.

Walmsley, Sir J.

Edwards, H.

Walter, J.

Fox, W. J.

Wawn, J. T.

Gaskell, J. M.

Wegg-Prosser, F. R.

Granger, T. C.

Williams, J.

Greenall, G.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Wodehouse, E.

Gwyn, H.

TELLERS.

Hall, Sir B.

Ashley, Lord

Halsey, T. P.

Brotherton, J.

LORD ASHLEYsaid, that in consequence of the position in which he had been placed by the result of the division which had just taken place, he should consider himself altogether relieved from the obligations which he had entered into with respect to this Bill. He certainly could not consider the decision which had just been come to by the Committee a final one, and upon the first opportunity which might arise he should feel it his duty to restate the claims of those parties to whom his Amendment referred.
MR. BROTHERTONtrusted that the rejection of the Amendment would not have so prejudicial an effect upon the Bill as the noble Lord appeared to anticipate. He believed that the master manufacturers had entered with perfect good faith into the
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compromise, and he was willing to hope that they would honourably carry it out.
LORD ASHLEYsaid, that he was only anxious to guard himself so far, that he would not be under any further obligations with respect to the compromise entered into by him, and that he should feel himself at perfect liberty to act as he considered best in the matter.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that he had always understood that the noble Lord wished to introduce children into the Bill, and he had, in preparing his Amendment, done nothing in the least degree inconsistent with any previous expression of opinion upon the subject. The noble Lord had told him privately that he wished to introduce children into the Bill, and he (Sir G. Grey) had stated that he would not agree to a proposal of that kind. The noble Lord had done what he had fully expected he would have done, namely, taken the sense of the House upon the subject, and he must have known at the same time that he (Sir G. Grey) would have felt it his duty to oppose the Amendment.
The House resumed.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday next.

METROPOLITAN INTERMENTS BILL.
Order for Committee read.
House went into Committee on this Bill.
Clause 19.
MR. STANFORD MR. STANFORD moved an Amendment to the effect, that fees for the removal of bodies to burial grounds should be submitted to, and authorised by, Parliament. The board, no doubt, might consist of just and honourable men, but the people of this country would expect that their representatives in that House should at least suggest such amendments as appeared absolutely necessary, and that which he had submitted to the House seemed to him to be one without which the Bill could not fail to operate most disadvantageously to the public.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that if the fees were not to be chargeable until after they received the sanction of Parliament, the effect would be, that the present Bill could not come into operation till next Session. The table of fees might not be ready during the present Session, and the only way then in which they could receive the sanction of Parliament would be by Act of Parliament passed next year; therefore, if the Amendment were agreed to, it would have

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the effect of altogether suspending the operation of the present measure.
LORD D. STUARTobserved, that there was the same objection to this clause as there was to every other clause in the Bill—it gave absolute power to the board. The Bill was supposed to be a poor man's Bill, but the clause now under consideration was assuredly a rich man's clause.
LORD ASHLEYdenied that it was a rich man's Bill. At present the expense of a faculty was very great, and by the Bill power was given to the board to do that for poor persons at a small expense which they could not at present effect otherwise than at great cost.
SIR B. HALLdesired attention to this, that the question of fees had now been raised, and he thought the House ought to be placed in such a position as that they should know what the fees were likely to be. What they wanted to know was, the probable expense of removing a dead body from any parish in the metropolis to an extramural cemetery.
LORD ASHLEYthought that any statement on the subject of fees had better be postponed till they reached the next clause.
MR. ROEBUCKbegged to remind the Committee that a fee for a faculty was usually paid under the influence of very painful feelings, and he hoped—nay he had no doubt—that the clergy did not desire to tax the people for seeking to relieve the severity of those feelings; but as to the public he had no difficulty whatever in saying that there were many very serious reasons why the public should not be taxed on account of faculties. The feelings which induced surviving relations to desire the removal of dead bodies certainly did sometimes exist, but they were, on the whole, rare. It seemed to him that the general rule should be to allow "the tree to remain where it fell;" the removal of dead bodies was, generally speaking, objectionable, and there certainly was no reason why the clergy should levy a tax on account of it. He was of opinion that the maximum fee might be put into the Bill then.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that if so it must, under present circumstances, be high, and he certainly should be unwilling to see a high rate charged to persons of small means.
MR. ROEBUCKmaintained that the fee ought to be extremely small, but that general words might be introduced into the Bill, imposing all the proper expenses
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of removal on those by whose desire the removal was effected.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEthought it would be much better to do away with the faculty altogether. It was idle to talk of removing bodies from metropolitan burial places; they might not he for three weeks at a time in the places where they had been deposited. How could it be otherwise, when 8,000 were buried in one acre, when 136 were all that it could fairly be made to contain? It was under such circumstances a mockery to require that people should ask and pay for the consent of the incumbent.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that not a farthing of the fees would go to the clergy.
MR. ROEBUCKwas willing that there should be a fee for burials and removals, but he would stop there and give nothing for consents.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the burial ground was the freehold of the incumbent, and his consent in law was necessary.
The CHAIRMANcalled the attention of the hon. Member for Reading to the circumstance that his Amendment applied to the 20th clause of the reprinted Bill.
MR. STANFORDsaid, he perceived it was so, and would for the present withdraw his Amendment.
MR. ROEBUCKwished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman would dispense with the consent of the incumbent?
SIR G. GREYrepeated that he could not consent to any proposal which would interfere with the incumbents' right of freehold in consecrated ground.
MR. ROEBUCK MR. ROEBUCK moved as an Amendment that the words "with the consent of the incumbent" he left out of the clause.
Amendment proposed in page 7, line 14, to leave out the words "incumbent or other."
SIR G. GREYhad no particular objection to such an Amendment, because the words which followed, "or other person having the control or care of any church, &c.," would be sufficient to insure the object in view, namely, the consent of those having the right of freehold.
MR. ROEBUCKmight as well state at once that it was his intention afterwards to move the omission of these words also, and to propose the insertion of the words "with the consent of the Board of Health."
SIR G. GREY, after the explanation just given by the hon. and learned Member, would object to the Amendment, for the reasons he had before given.
MR. MACKINNONasked how, in the event of a measure like the present being extended to Manchester and other large towns, the Board of Health in London could be consulted about the removal of dead bodies?
SIR G. GREY, with reference to the question of fees, thought words might be inserted in the next clause to the effect that the incumbent should have no fees, though he still would have the privilege of giving his consent or withholding it.
MR. STANFORDsaid, the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield proposed to take the fee from the incumbent and give it to the Board of Health, an irresponsible body, which that hon. and learned Gentleman would, in other circumstances, have exerted all his logical acuteness and power of invective to denounce. But, because it gave him an opportunity of taking something from the clergy, he was ready to give the advantage to this irresponsible board.
MR. ROEBUCKwould appeal to the House whether that was a fair conclusion from what he had said. He understood that the fees provided by the Bill were to go into a fund from which the claims of the present incumbents were to be paid; and he thought that all sums, even those got by the removal of bodies, would be put into that fund, and appropriated to the purpose he had just stated. There were persons who had a captious desire to find fault, but whose power and capacity for doing so did not equal their wishes.
MR. B. OSBORNEsaid, the hon. Member for Reading, who had made an observation regarding the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, had certainly not shown much acuteness himself that night, for he had moved an Amendment on the 19th clause, which it turned out should have been made on the 20th, and now he had made a speech which should have been made on a totally different clause also.
MR. SADLEIRthought the Board of Health should be the responsible party. Respecting the remark made by the hon. Member for Lymington, if the provisions of the Bill were extended to other large towns, of course no one would purpose that in that case the consent should be with the Board of Health. The power would then be given to some other body.
MR. LACYthought a certain amount should be paid by way of fine for the removal of bodies. The public health might be endangered if every man were to take
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out his wife, to carry her to another burying place.
MR. AGLIONBYthought the hon. Gentleman need be under very little alarm on that point. He was mistaken in supposing that anybody would rush into the churchyard to carry off his wife.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 88; Noes 48: Majority 40.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 20.
LORD ASHLEYsaid, in the Cemeteries Companies Bill there was no scale of charges, nor any system of cheek or control on the amount of the fees. However, there was this distinction to be observed, and it was a distinction of great importance as to the framing of the Bill, that here they had no view whatever of profit, and their object was that the fees should be constructed on a scale which was just sufficient to meet the necessary expenses, and no more. It was not required that there should be any profit whatever on which to declare a dividend. In comparing the fees of the existing cemeteries with those proposed under this Bill, he found that the fee of the existing cemeteries for the grave of a pauper, including the burial service, and the digging of the grave, and everything, in short, except that which belonged to the undertaker, was 9s. The fee proposed by this Bill, and which he hoped they might hereafter be enabled to reduce, was 7s. Going to the next class, which was the artisan, whose family defrayed his funeral expenses, the fee of the existing cemeteries might be taken at 1l. 8s. 7d., although the general charge very much exceeded that amount. They proposed, instead of 1l. 8s. 7d., to take 1l. 5s. Then, when they came to the private grave, which involved the freehold, the demand in the existing cemeteries was 5l. 1s. 6d.; they proposed to take 4l. It would be very difficult indeed to impose a maximum of fees of an order above that, and for this reason, that it very often happened the parties wanted certain positions. Some great man wished to be interred in a particular spot, and his relatives wished to be interred about that spot. Very often in some of the cemeteries about London there was a monument, and parties were anxious to be interred about that spot. However, that being the case, and some positions being better than others, he

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thought it very desirable that in the highest department of fees a discretion should be allowed to the board, because, if there was a great demand for interments in given districts, how was the board to decide? If they were not governed by some rule of this description, they would be charged with jobbery. He thought it far better to make payment the rule, and not leave it to the board to say whether this party or that party should be interred there, but if there was a demand for a particular spot, to make it a matter of payment. He thought that would take away from the board a great degree of responsibility. The House would bear in mind that this table of fees, when constructed, was to be submitted to Parliament every year. It was to be submitted in a report to the Secretary of State, who was to lay that report before Parliament for approval, so that there would be an opportunity every year of revising these fees. This condition would be found under the 69th clause.
MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEYsaid, the noble Lord was misinformed with respect to the charges of cemeteries. In the first place, the noble Lord stated that the charge for a pauper was 9s. Why, he had been making inquiries of parties conversant with the matter, and he found that in churchyards—
LORD ASHLEY: We are not talking about churchyards. I am comparing these fees with the demands of cemetery companies, not with churchyards.
MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEYsaid, 7s. was the charge made under this Bill for the interment of a pauper. Now, there was no charge whatever made for the interment of paupers in churchyards. And, then, with regard to artisans, the charge in the Abney-park Cemetery was 15 s., and in another cemetery he was acquainted with, 12 s. 4d. The noble Lord said, the charge under this Bill was to be 27 s. He took it for granted that the artisan would think there was very little liberality shown towards him. Then, with regard to the third item, the noble Lord stated that the charge in cemeteries for private graves was 5l. 7s. 6d. Now, the charge universally made for a private grave was 3l. 3s., to which was certainly added a fee of 2l. 2s., but then the grave once purchased, the family had a claim to have other bodies put in it, paying 2l. 2s. only. The charge of 4l., as proposed by the noble Lord, was a great advance on the existing companies.
MR. ROEBUCKwished to know why there should be this regulation of fees. The noble Lord said they did not want a dividend, but merely wanted to pay their expenses. The expenses, he supposed, were first for the salaries of the existing incumbents of parishes, and there was also the expenses of management. [Lord ASHLEY: The purchase of land.] Purchase of land undoubtedly. But the expense of burying a rich man was the same as the expense of burying a pauper. The area in which the body lay was the same for a pauper as for a prince. Why not charge 7s. for every body? If they told him that would not be enough to cover the expenses, then he could understand them, and then he should say they had better come to Parliament for the money.
MR. STANFORDrose to move the Amendment of which he had given notice. Profit not being the object of the board, did not, in his opinion, constitute a sufficient guarantee against improvident expenditure and extravagant charges, and of this the conduct of the Sewers Commission afforded a sufficient example. What did the noble Lord mean by saying that Parliament would have a controlling power over the proceedings of the board? A report would be laid on the table every year, and hon. Members might make their complaints, but the only substantial remedy would be to repeal the Act itself. It Was the duty of the Government, if they wanted the Bill to pass—and he was as anxious as any person that it should pass this Session—to have placed all these restrictions on the Bill. He hoped that hon. Members would support him in the Amendment which he now moved, namely—
"To add, in page 1, line 12 of the Clause, these words, 'such Fees or Sums having been first submitted to, and authorised by, Parliament."
SIR B. HALLwished to call the noble Lord's attention to the charges made at St. John's Wood burying ground, which was remarkably well conducted. There the charges were—for the clergyman and use of the ground, 4s. 4d.; clerk and sexton, 2s. 6d.; and the hell 1s.—making altogether 7s. 10 d. for each interment. Now the noble Lord stated that 7s. would, he hoped, be the minimum charge, and that the interment of an artisan would not cost more than 1l. 5s. It was said this measure would not only improve the sanitary condition of the people, but that the expenses of interment would be much cheaper.

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In his opinion it was a perfect farce. By whom were the expenses of conveyance to be paid?—out of the fees, or by the relatives of the deceased? Were they to have a railroad or a funeral steamer for the purpose? He apprehended it would be a very disgusting undertaking. However, the public were entitled to have every information relative to the proposed financial affairs. Every one had now power to select any ground for the purpose of interment; but under this Bill the matter was compulsory upon the highest Peer of the realm, as well as the poorest artisan. It was a very arbitrary measure, and there should, at all events, be a schedule of the fees attached to the Bill, in order that the hon. Members might have an opportunity of communicating with their constituents, and ascertaining their opinions on the subject. The noble Lord had very candidly stated that an artisan should pay, under this Bill, some 17 s. more than he need pay at present.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the hon. Baronet had, in his innocence, made an extraordinary discovery that extramural interment was more expensive than intramural. He took the maximum charge fixed on by the noble Lord, and then selected a churchyard where the charges were cheaper than any other about London. [Sir B. HALL: It is only half-a-crown at St. Pancras.] He was at a loss to know how the matter was to be accomplished for a less sum than that suggested by the noble Lord, unless an application was to be made to the Treasury for some of the public funds in support of the movement.
MR. B. OSBORNEdid not know what fee was to be exacted for removing the body of the noble Lord the hon. Member for Bath from the Opposition to the Treasury bench. [Lord Ashley, for the convenience of discussion, was occupying a seat amongst the Ministers.] He believed no fee had been paid at present, but he had been told that a high fee was to be paid for removing the body. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department had misunderstood the hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone, for that hon. Baronet had very fairly adduced the cases of St. Pancras and St. Marylebone, two of the largest parishes which could be selected. The noble Lord said, there would be no profit accruing from the proposed arrangement, and he recommended the plan on the ground of its economy. Now, taking 700 acres to the square mile—[An Hon. MEMBER: Only
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640 acres]—or taking 640 acres on the average, or taking that amount in round numbers—[Laughter.] The noble Lord should not laugh; or, if he laughed, let him confute him in his figures. Now, he calculated that 60 l. an acre would cost 40,000 l. for a mile; and allowing six square yards for each grave, and 15 s. for the interment, the amount realised would be 375,000 l. He should like to know into whoso hands the profit was to go?
LORD ASHLEYsaid, if there were profits they should be applied to the reduction of the fees. The seven shillings he had already stated would include charges for religious services, digging the grave, and every thing except the conveyance of the bodies. The expenses for religious services very considerably increased the cost of burial. Abney-park had been referred to, but no religious services were ever performed there unless specially required.
SIR DE. L. EVANSsaid, this was a compulsory measure, and it was very desirable that a schedule of the fees should be attached to the Bill. The noble Lord had merely told the House what he hoped would be the minimum charges. That was very vague. The best way to remove the objections to the measure was to prepare a scale of fees. If they were to remain undefined, the measure should be limited to three years or some other particular period.
MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEYsaid, the public expected not only the observance of greater decency in the system to be pursued under this measure, but that the interments should be much more economical. This was the gist of the matter, and it should be stated with accuracy. If parishes were to be compelled to pay seven shillings for the interment of every pauper, it would make a great difference in their poor-rates.
MR. WAKLEYthought it a duty which the Government owed to the House, that the clause should be postponed, and a schedule of fees prepared such as could substantially be adopted. The Committee were proceeding upon insufficient data; they had not the materials to warrant them in coming to a positive conclusion. The statements made relative to the cost of burials in various cemeteries were correct; and he had no doubt the cost was equally low in others. The noble Lord the Member for Bath said, he hoped the cost would not exceed 1l. 5s. for the burial of an artisan. But the charge in many parishes, at present, was not half that amount. Then

865
the Board of Health might select burial grounds twenty or thirty miles distant. The Committee would be acting most unjustly towards the parishes if the question were not postponed. He should therefore feel it to be his duty to move that the further consideration of the claim he postponed accordingly.
The CHAIRMANsaid, that the hon. Member for Reading must withdraw his Amendment before that of the hon. Member for Finsbury could be nut.
MR. STANFORDsaid, that he wished to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment withdrawn.
MR. ROEBUCKbelieved that some misapprehension existed with respect to the Bill, and that the effect would be to make burials less expensive than at present, but for different reasons than had been assigned. There were expenses attendant on matters regulated by this Bill, the grave and all the ceremonies of interment. But there were also the expenses of the undertaker. These the community felt to be heavy and expensive, and not the charges for burial ground and cost of services at the grave. By the regulations of the 27th clause, he hoped a much cheaper mode of conducting funerals would be established, and the public expectation be satisfied. The expenditure would be reduced one-half.
SIR B. HALLasked whether, in addition to the 25 s., the friends of an artisan must also pay 6s. 2d. to the clergyman of the parish under the 30th clause?
SIR G. GREYthought his noble Friend had stated very distinctly that the maximum charge of 25 s. would include every expense attending the ceremony of interment. The 6s. 2d. would not be in addition to the 25 s.
MR. AGLIONBYwas favourable to the Bill, but thought the Committee had not sufficient data on which to come to a conclusion that should be satisfactory to the public. Statistical information had been procured, from which a schedule of fees might be prepared, to be brought forward at another stage of the Bill. Some estimate of the expense attending the board ought to be furnished.
MR. LACYsaid, that in the scheme of the Board of Health the estimate of expenditure was 112,000 l. per annum, an amount which could not be realised under the Bill, judging from anything that appeared on the face of it. It seemed to have been thought prudent to avoid introducing a schedule.
SIR G. GREYsaw no advantage in the postponement of the clause, as some schedule must be fixed in the first instance. The first cost would be great—he hoped not greater than was anticipated; and the fees, on which the hon. Member for Middlesex calculated so much, would come in very slowly.
MR. WYLDsaid, that at present every parishioner had a common-law right to interment in the parish churchyard or burial ground. Applying this to paupers, it would be seen that a very large additional cost would be imposed on the parishes—probably not less than 18,000 l. for pauper funerals.
MR. B. OSBORNEthought the Committee should know whore the Board of Health proposed to purchase land.
LORD ASHLEYsaid, the board not being yet properly constituted under this Act, could not take any step for the purchase of land. They were not bound to confine their selection to one or two plots of ground. The probability was, that for some months to come they would be obliged to make use of some of the existing cemeteries. As to other spots in the neighbourhood of London, though the hoard had directed their attention to some, they had not decided on any.
MR. D'EYNCOURTurged the postponement of the Bill until the schedule was prepared.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEwished to ask the noble Lord the Member for Bath if Erith had not been selected as one of the places for metropolitan interments; also, whether steamers were not to be employed to carry the bodies down the river to the place known as "The Happy Land?" He considered the noble Lord's former answers as so uncandid, that he was obliged to ask thus particularly.
LORD ASHLEYsaid, he should be much obliged to the hon. Gentleman if he would point out anything which had been uncandid in his answers. It was perfectly true that the Board of Health had thought of "The Happy Land," as it was called; the ground at Erith had been the subject of consideration, as well as other places; and an inspection of that and other sites had been directed, but nothing further.
LORD R. GROSVENORcould not understand this extraordinary jealousy of the present Bill and the Board of Health. The great point was to put a stop to intramural burials. With regard to the

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schedule of fees, who could tell what it would be? He should be glad to see such a schedule annexed to the Act if it would lead to any useful results; but as no one could say what the fees would be, it was necessary to take a very high maximum. The whole question would come before Parliament next year, and then would be the time for the House to call for a schedule of fees.
LORD D. STUARTsaid, the Committee was about to agree to a clause of which they knew nothing at all. They did not even know of whom the Board of Health consisted. The noble Lord the Member for Bath, a man of sanguine temperament, hoped the expense would not be very great; but, like other framers of estimates, it was very probable he might be deceived in his calculations. From the statistics which had been given of Marylebone, it was evident that scheme would be much better carried out by the several parishes; otherwise one would be paying for the expenses of another, and great discontent would be the result. That was a very good reason why the clause should be postponed. He hoped his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury would persevere in his Motion.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that his noble Friend's speech divided itself into two parts. In the first he stated that it was impossible to give a correct estimate; and in the second he said that the Government were bound to give a very accurate estimate of the cost of burials. With regard to the Motion of the hon. Member for Finsbury, it meant that they were to remain content with the present system. ["No, no!"] If that were not the meaning of it, then there was no reason for postponing the clause. If they were to continue the practice which was so shocking to their feelings, of casting only a small covering of earth over the dead body, no doubt a very small fee might be sufficient. But if they determined on putting an end to that practice, and that the burials should take place at a distance from the metropolis, there must be some means of paying the expenses of the interments. The Board of Health could in some respects cause a diminution of the expenses of interments, but still there was a large expense to be incurred in the purchase of ground, and there was the cost of the funeral service. These expenses must be provided for in some way or other. One way was, by voting a large amount of the public money.
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No person proposed such a scheme. Another way was, by levying a rate on the different parishes of the metropolis. No one advocated that plan. The only remaining mode, therefore, was, by a system of fees; and then the question arose, what the amount of these fees was to be. He did not think that the Board of Health, or any other body, could determine, previous to experience, what the amount of fees should be; nor did he think that by postponing the clause for three or four days they would be able to obtain sufficient information on that point. That being the case, he thought it better that a discretion as to the amount of fees should be vested in the Board of Health; and as they were not to be a private company, which had to make a profit on burials, but a great public board, he considered such discretion might be safely left in their hands. If they found that the fees they fixed on in the first instance were too high, and left a surplus, they would of course reduce the fees. But as a further security he intended to propose to insert words by which the fees to be fixed were to receive the approbation of one of Her Majesty's Secretaries of State. He would have to give his approbation to the scale of fees, and they might be at any time moved for in Parliament. All that would be asked for was as much as would be sufficient to pay the interest on the sum required for the purchase of the ground in the first place, and to pay for the funeral service in the next place. Of course there must be a larger fee demanded for a choice of spots, and the board would have to take that circumstance into their consideration. He hoped the Committee would assent to the clause with the addition he proposed.
MR. ROEBUCKthought that the question of fees could not be left in better hands than those proposed by the noble Lord.
COLONEL THOMPSONasked whether the solution of the difficulty was not in the fact, that there was a subsequent clause, 69, which provided that an annual report and abstract of the accounts should be laid before Parliament?
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, that the Bill required a table of the fees to be publicly exhibited, so that there would be no necessity for waiting till a report was made to Parliament.
MR. SADLEIRsaid, that he would resist the Amendment, the practical effect of which would be to postpone the operation of the Bill, to the principle of which he

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was favourable, for twelve months. But it had been estimated that 112,000 l. would be required, If that were so, taking this clause in connexion with the 53rd, it was probable that they should have recourse to the rate in addition to the fees. He did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary that larger fees would be necessary because the interment was to take place at a greater distance. The distance might increase the funeral expenses, but it had nothing to do with the fees. Indeed he should have thought that the fees would be somewhat less for extramural interments.
LORD J. RUSSELLproposed the addition of the words, "with the approbation of one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State."
MR. D'EYNCOURT MR. D'EYNCOURT moved the addition of these words:—
"Provided always that such fees or sums shall not exceed the several fees or sums specified in Schedule E. to this Act annexed."
MR. WAKLEYsupported the Amendment, and begged of the noble Lord to adopt it.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, it seemed to him impossible to lay down any fixed rule of fees, seeing that there must necessarily be a great diversity of charges.
Question put, "That the Proviso be there added."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 171: Majority 107.
SIR B. HALLinquired of whom the board was to be composed; the salaries, if any, to be paid; the officers; and what the expenses of the board were likely to be?
SIR G. GREYreplied, that the board would consist of Lords Seymour and Ashley as unpaid commissioners, with Mr. Chadwick as paid commissioner. It was also contemplated to add a second paid commissioner.
Clause agreed to, as also were Clauses 21 and 22,
Clause 23,
LORD D. STUARTwished for some explanations as to the wording of the clause.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, that as regarded the present clause, they were in danger in running in the opposite extreme, that of economy. At present houses clustered round all the graveyards; but by the present clause all graves should be made 200 yards distant from any house. The result would be, that, taking 200 yards on every side from the grave, they would be com-
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pelled to purchase twice as much land as they otherwise would. In his opinion, 50 yards' distance between a grave and a house would be quite sufficient for all sanitary regulations, certainly 100 yards would be quite ample for all purposes of health; and therefore if some alteration were not made in the clause, he would move an Amendment to that effect.
LORD ASHLEYobserved, that they had been called to account by several scientific gentlemen for limiting the belt of ground to 200 yards, inasmuch as the gases arising from decomposition were most injurious, and also the quality of the water in the various localities should be preserved from contamination. In his opinion 200 yards were the very minimum that could be named.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that 200 yards had been provided for by the Cemetery Act.
MR. BRIGHTdid not sec why 200 yards should be imported into this Bill because it was in the Cemetery Act. He hoped the clause would be allowed to stand over for the present, in order that the proper parties might be consulted on the subject, and then, if the 200 yards should be considered necessary, of course he should withdraw his opposition to the clause. He warned the Government against implicitly taking and relying upon the opinion of scientific men, inasmuch as that class of persons would very probably involve the metropolis in immense expense.
Clause agreed to.
House resumed.
Committee report progress; to sit again To-morrow.

POPULATION—NATIONAL CENSUS.
MR. G. C. LEWIS MR. G. C. LEWIS moved for leave to bring in a Bill for taking an account of the population of Great Britain. It had been for some time the practice to take a census of the population at periods of ten years. The census of Great Britain was taken in 1801, and of Great Britain and Ireland in 1811, and at decennial periods up to 1841. Previous to 1841 the population was counted by means of the parish overseers; but in that year the office of registrar-general was substituted, for the purpose of obtaining an accurate account of the population. It was proposed in the year 1851, to use the same machinery as was used in taking the census of 1841. The only difference would be in the superintendence under which it would be now taken. It would be taken under the con-

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trol of the Secretary of State, by efficient persons most fitted to obtain the necessary information. For the last census, three commissioners were appointed—the registrar-general and two others; but it was hoped that a better arrangement would be now made. The expenses of the last census at the central offices were 29,000 l.; the expense of the enumeration for England was 58,000 l.; and for Scotland, 19,000 l.; and the entire expense rather exceeded 100,000 l. The expense of those two processes was in 1841 divided between the national exchequer and the local funds. The parishes paid the portion of the expense that consisted of the cost of enumeration, and the Treasury paid the expense of the central office. The parishes therefore paid over 70,000 l. out of a sum of over 100,000 l. By the present Bill he proposed that the sum now paid by the parishes should be repaid by a grant of money from Parliament. So the whole expense of this census would fall on the national exchequer, and no part of it would be taken out of the local funds. This Bill would apply to England and Scotland, and there would be another Bill for Ireland.
MR. STANFORDasked whether it was in contemplation to distinguish the different trades and employments?
MR. G. C. LEWISsaid, it was proposed to obtain the same particulars as were obtained by the last census.
LORD GALWAYasked on what day would the census be taken in 1851?
MR. G. C. LEWISreplied, on the 9th of June, as before.
LORD GALWAYsaid, that as a very great number of foreigners would probably be in London at that time, care must be taken not to include them in the census.
Leave given.
The House adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock.