Commons Sitting of 29 July 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a General Practitioners.
2a Duke of Cambridge's, &c., Annuity; Commons Inclosure (No. 2); Grand Jury Cess (Ireland); Assizes (Ireland); Fees (Court of Common Pleas) (No. 2).
Reported.—Trustee.
3a Mercantile Marine (No. 2); Navy Pay; Public Libraries and Museums.

OATHS OF JEWISH MEMBERS—BARON DE ROTHSCHILD—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the Clerk proceeding to read the Order of the Day for resuming the Ad-

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journed Debate on Sir R. Inglis's Motion, with reference to the request of Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild to be sworn on the Old Testament,
MR. HENLEYsaid: Before the Order of the Day for the adjourned debate is read, I wish, Mr. Speaker, to ask you this question—whether, to give a proper locus standi for the discussion of the important question which is about to be raised by the Amendment put upon the notices by the hon. and gallant Member for Middlesex, it would not be expedient that some further question should be put to Baron de Rothschild, one of the hon. Members for the city of London, in order to get upon the records of the House the fact that to take the oath in the way he has requested—the only answer he has yet made being, that he requests to be sworn upon the Old Testament—is binding upon his conscience, and the reason why he requires so to take it? I think that, simply to give order to our proceedings, we should do this. The Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Middlesex admits the proposition that it is binding upon his conscience, but we have it not upon record; therefore, it seems to me it would give greater regularity to our proceedings to have the answer from Baron de Rothschild himself. I wish, therefore, Mr. Speaker, to know from you, if it is open for any hon. Member to make a Motion to this effect before the debate upon the question comes on?
Mr. SPEAKER: The Amendment is upon the Order of the Day. The only record upon the Journals of the House is, that Baron de Rothschild came to the table, and when asked that which is the usual question, he said, "I demand to be sworn upon the Old Testament." Of course, that being a novel claim, it could not be admitted without the assent of the House; and I requested the hon. Member to withdraw. With regard to the question now put to me, I do not think, unless it has the full consent of the House, it is desirable to put the question to Baron de Rothschild which has been suggested. Of course it may be put; but otherwise, according to our regular and ordinary rules, we must proceed with the discussion of the Order of the Day.
MR. W. P. WOOD: I apprehend that the only possible question to be put to Baron de Rothschild is, whether or not he considers an oath so taken in form binding upon his conscience? That question, I
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apprehend, might be properly put; and I cannot suppose that he would have any objection to answer it. If he has, it would; be for him to state it.
MR. SCOTT: I wish to ask a preliminary question. It fell from you, Sir, that the oath could not be put to the hon. Member upon the Old Testament, without a decision of the House to that effect. Now, I wish to know whether, if the decision of the House be to the effect that he; should be sworn upon the Old Testament, he could not then take his seat in this House, as a Member of this House, entitled to vote upon all questions? If that were it so, it would, I think, obviate the necessity I of any Bill being introduced into Parliament.
MR. SPEAKER: In answer to the question of the hon. Member for Berwickshire, he will see at once that there are two questions—first, the form of swearing, and the other as to the oath to be taken. With regard to the form of swearing, if the House should decide that the hon. Member for the city of London be sworn upon the Old Testament, of course it would be my duty to call him to the table to be sworn; but then comes the other question, whether he would take the oaths that are prescribed by the Act of Parliament.
SIR G. GREY: The suggestion, as I understand it, is, that Baron de Rothschild be called in, and asked whether, having asked to be sworn upon the Old Testament, he admits that to be the form of oath most binding upon his conscience? The hon. and learned Member for Oxford, as I understand, has no objection to that course. But, of course, it is for Baron de Rothschild to answer or not, as be thinks fit. I understand from you. Sir, that if the House concurs in the propriety of that course, there can be no objection to its being adopted. No objection being made, it appears to me that the best course would be to move that Baron de Rothschild be called in, and the question asked from him.
MR. HENLEY: My only object is to get something formally upon the records of Parliament, because the entry seems to stand so bald at present, inasmuch as a proceeding is entered of which we do not know the reason. This is the usual form of courts of justice.
SIR J. GRAHAM: I confess I think it would be expedient that the question should he put to Baron de Rothschild; because, as the matter stands at present, it

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is merely that he requests to be sworn upon the Old Testament, and not because that it is the mode of swearing binding upon his conscience. The notice of Amendment given by the hon. and gallent Member for Middlesex is—
"That Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild, one of the Members for the city of London, having presented himself at the table of the House, and having previously to taking the oaths requested to be sworn on the Old Testament—being the form which he is ready to declare to be binding on his conscience—the clerk be directed to swear him on the Old Testament accordingly."
But I think it is very inexpedient that any Member of this House should declare for another what is binding upon his conscience. I think we should have a declaration from himself of what is most binding. If the Baron de Rothschild, on presenting himself at the table, asks for the Old Testament, and is ready to say that swearing upon it is the mode of taking an oath most binding upon his conscience, I certainly think we ought to have that upon record.
SIR F. THESIGER: We have not yet had the answer of Baron de Rothschild to the question which I think the House ought to put to him. Inasmuch as the question is a novel one, and as it is necessary that we should proceed with great care, I thought that if Baron de Rothschild came to the table and said, "I desire to be sworn on the Old Testament," which was, in fact, no answer to the question put to him by the clerk, that, at all events, the House being informed of the desire of the Baron de Rothschild, would have requested to know why he desired to be sworn in that particular form. I do not think the question we should put is that which has been suggested by my right hon. Friend; I do not think that we ought to invite the Baron to declare that that is the form most binding on his concience. But, inasmuch as the Baron has presented himself at the table of the House, and desired to be sworn in a form which is unknown to the House, we are bound to inquire why, and for what reason, he desires to be sworn in that particular mode. It is very possible that the answer which the Baron will give may render it necessary for the House to put a further question; but I will not anticipate that necessity, because it is quite sufficient for us at present to discuss whether he shall be invited to the table, and asked the question in the form I propose
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—namely, why he so desires to be sworn on the Old Testament? It strikes me that it is possible he may then say, I desire so to be sworn, because that is the form of swearing which is most binding on my conscience. It then may be necessary for us to go further, and ask him if he be a member of the Jewish persuasion. [Cries of "No, no!"] We are here called upon to determine and decide the right course to pursue in a novel and unprecedented occasion. Do let us, therefore, proceed carefully and deliberately. Suppose Baron de Rothschild had come to the table, and said that he was ready to swear the oath by dashing a saucer to the ground, and that that was the form of swearing he held to be most binding on his conscience, should we have been precluded in that case from making any further inquiry on the subject? Are we to be bound by any technical rules which would prevent our investigating the grounds upon which any Member who presents himself to be sworn may choose to adopt a different form of oath to that which the House has laid down? If that is to be the rule, we must no longer say that technical restrictions exist in courts of justice alone, because we, the House of Commons, shall be precluding ourselves from that inquiry which is necessary to enable us to decide a most important question. I throw this out for the consideration of the House. Desirous as I am that we should proceed with care and deliberation, I think it is sufficient at present to say that the form of the question which I have suggested is the proper one to be put to the Baron. Whether that should be followed up by further questions, it is for the House to decide. That is a matter for future consideration; but for the present it is, I submit, sufficient to put the question in the form I have suggested.
MR. B. OSBORNE: I quite agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman that it is necessary we should proceed with care and deliberation in this business; but though there can be no doubt that the House has the power to put any question which it may seem fit to it to put, yet I think, in justice to the hon. Member for London, who is about to be called to the table, that he should be warned that it is in his discretion to answer any questions that may be put to him or not, as he may think proper. Therefore I hope that the hon. Gentleman, when called to the table, will not answer

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any second question which will raise a debate on the oath of abjuration.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. Gentleman the Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild be called in, and that I put the question to him whether, in claiming to be sworn on the Old Testament, he does so because he considers that form of taking the oath the most binding on his conscience?
MR. HUME: I apprehend he has already claimed to be sworn; the question now is, does he desire to be sworn? There is a great difference between claiming and desiring; but I am sure if he were called in and asked the question, he will answer that he does desire it.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he wished to ascertain the Baron de Rothschild's reason, and he thought the question should be asked why he desired to be sworn on the Old Testament?
MR. C. ANSTEYsaid, if they were to have a discussion upon every suggestion that was made, they would not finish the inquiry before the end of the present Parliament, much less in the present Session. It appeared to him very extraordinary, as they were such sticklers for precedent on Friday last, that they were now prepared to depart so completely from precedent as was proposed. According to the old form which was pursued in Lord Fanshawe's case, in Sir H. Mounson's case, and in Mr. Archdall's and Mr. O'Connell's cases, all the oaths at once were presented before the Member elected, and he was asked to take those oaths. He examined them altogether, not one by one, and then he stated his objections to all the oaths, or to any of them, Mr. O'Connell stated that he had no objection to the oath of abjuration or of allegiance, but to the oath of supremacy. [An Hon. MEMBER: We haven't come to that.] He knew that; but he wanted to show the House that they ought to come to it. He did not wish to lose time in the discussion of this question. He thought that the citizens of London were entitled to have an early decision of the whole matter, and that they had a right to require the House either to admit their Member, or to give them an opportunity of proceeding to a new election. What he should propose, therefore, was, that Baron de Rothschild be again called in for the purpose of having all the oaths exhibited to him. He could then state whether he objected to them, and what his objections were; and he thought that the House
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would be bound to stop there, and to go no further, because if they were bound to hear the grounds of objection, they ought, following the precedent in Mr. O'Connell's case, to be stated at the bar, and not at the table. He proposed that Baron de Rothschild should not be called in at all, but that they should proceed to discuss the question adjourned on Friday last—namely, that he be sworn upon the Old Testament; but if he were to be called in, then he thought that all the oaths should be shown him, and that he should be required to state, once for all, what his objections were.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The course suggested partly by the hon. Member for Oxfordshire, and partly by the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon, appears to me to be the correct one. Baron de Rothschild has presented himself at the table of this House, and demanded to be sworn in a particular mode. What he is to swear we have nothing to do with now. The sole question is, as to the form in which he shall be sworn, the mode in which the oath shall be administered. He claims to be sworn in a particular way, and it is right we should know from himself why he prefers that particular way. That I apprehend to be the only question which is now to be put to him, and to that he will give his answer, if called upon. I must say I think it would not be fair to put any other question without the previous assent of the House; and that, I believe, is the view of the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon. I propose, therefore, that the Baron de Rothschild be called in, and that you (Mr. Speaker) ask him why he demands to be sworn in that particular form?
SIR J. GRAHAM: I wish to speak to order. There still remains, as it appears to me, an important question of a judicial character, and it is of the last importance that order should be strictly observed in a question of this nature. I would suggest, therefore, for the consideration of the House, as strictly in accordance with order, that no question whatever should be put to Baron de Rothschild except through you, Sir, and that every such question should be in writing, and be moved, seconded, and put from the chair and carried, before it be put by Mr. Speaker to Baron de Rothschild. I have expressed my opinion that we ought not to proceed to debate the Motion of the hon. Member for the University of Oxford, and the

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Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Middlesex, of which notice has been given. If Baron de Rothschild, having claimed to be sworn on the Old Testament, is ready to declare that that is the mode of swearing which he considers to be most binding upon his conscience, I think we ought to have that declaration from the Baron himself. The question to be put to him from the chair, therefore, should be, "When you desire to be sworn on the Old Testament, is that the mode of swearing you conceive to be most binding upon your conscience?"
LORD J. RUSSELL: Whatever the form of question which may be put to Baron de Rothschild, I quite agree with the right hon. Baronet that to have the matter regularly before us, and in accordance with the orders of the House, it would be right that a Motion should be put and carried as to the mode in which the question shall be asked by Mr. Speaker, and that no question should be put except through Mr. Speaker, and by the direction of the House.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I quite agree with the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, and we are all agreed, I think, that this being a novel case, and one in which we are acting quasi judicially, we ought to proceed with extreme deliberation, and that no step should be taken without the assent of the House, come to after the fullest consideration. I should propose, subject to any amendment that may be suggested, that the Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild, having demanded to be sworn on the Old Testament, he be called to the table, and that Mr. Speaker do ask him why he has demanded to be sworn in that form?
LORD H. VANEseconded the Motion.
MR. HUMEsuggested the insertion of the words "Member for the City of London" after the name of the Baron de Rothschild, as this was to be a formal record of the proceedings.
SIR T. D. ACLAND: The question I wish to ask, Sir, is, "Does the Baron de Rothschild really desire to take the oaths required of every other Member of this House? It seems to me that his previous declarations implied the contrary.
It was then Ordered—
"That Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild, one of the Members for the City of London, having demanded to he sworn on the Old Testament, be called to the Table, and that Mr. Speaker do ask him why he has demanded to be sworn in that form."
Whereupon Baron LIONEL NATHAN DE ROTHSCHILD having come to the Table, was asked by Mr. SPEAKER:—
"Baron de Rothschild, you have demanded to be sworn on the Old Testament, and I am directed by the House to ask you why you have demanded to be sworn in that form?"
To which Baron LIONEL NATHAN DE ROTHSCHILD replied:—
"Because that is the form of swearing that I declare to be most binding on my conscience."
And then Mr. SPEAKER directed him to withdraw.
SIR F. THESIGER: I think even now we are in a difficulty with regard to having the proper entry in our records. The House will observe that the ordinary question having been put by the clerk at the table, whether the Baron claimed to take the Protestant or the Roman Catholic oath, no answer whatever was given to that question. The only answer given, which was no answer at all, was, "I desire to be sworn on the Old Testament." ["Oh, oh!"]It is very well to say "Oh, oh!" but, with submission, I think I am quite right, and that nobody can consider that an answer to the question put by the clerk. And that being the ordinary question put to every hon. Member on presenting himself to take the oaths, I apprehend that it is not put without an answer being required to it; and there having been no answer in this case, I shall propose that the question be again put to the Baron de Rothschild, and that he be asked whether he claims to take the Roman Catholic or Protestant oath.
MR. W. P. WOOD: With great submission, it does not appear to me that there is anything in the objection.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I rise to order. If the hon. and learned Gentleman wishes to have the question put, he had better put the question in writing.
SIR F. THESIGERthen submitted the Motion in writing.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild be called to the Table, and that Mr. Speaker do ask for an answer to the question already put to him by the Officer of the House, what Oath he claims to take, the Roman Catholic or the Protestant Oath."
MR. NEWDEGATEseconded the Motion.
MR. W. P. WOODsaid, there was really nothing in the point thus raised by

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the hon. and learned Gentleman. The question put by the clerk of the House when a Member came to be sworn, whether he wished to take the Roman Catholic or the Protestant oath, was no matter of record at all. It would not be found upon the journals. It happened to be accidentally mentioned that the clerk of the House had asked the question, and hence this point; but the clerk asked it solely out of courtesy to hon. Members who presented themselves to be sworn, in order that they might be informed they had an option. The statute said, that Members professing the Roman Catholic religion should have a right to demand the Roman Catholic oath; but if they did not ask for it, the other would be administered as a matter of course. The two forms were presented separately, but it was never said in the journals that the clerk asked any such question as to which they would take. It was only done as a proper act of courtesy towards gentlemen who professed the Roman Catholic religion under an Act passed for their relief: and no hon. Member was obliged to answer the question at all; but if he did not answer, of course he would not have the benefit of taking the Roman Catholic oath.
MR. ANSTEY, in confirmation of what his hon. and learned Friend had stated, would add that when he took the Roman Catholic oath he was obliged to demand it. He claimed the Roman Catholic oath, and it was tendered to him in due form. He appealed to every Roman Catholic Member in the House whether the same form had not been observed in their cases respectively.
MR. HENLEYsaid, the difficulty was, that in this case there was a record upon the journals of a question that had been put. The hon. and learned Member for the city of Oxford said such questions did not appear upon the journals; but there it was, in this case, actually printed in the records from which the journals were made up—the Votes. The question appearing there without an answer being given, made all the difference.
MR. HUMEsaid, that if Baron de Rothschild were again called in, it did not follow that the question would be answered. No answer would be given to an improper question; and certainly this appeared to him one of that character.
SIR G. GREY: As I understand it, the question was put by the clerk, for his own information, and not by the direction of the House. In the case of Roman Catholic
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Members, it is not absolutely necessary that the question should be put; but if the Catholic oath is demanded, it must bead-ministered. In this case, however, with the desire to be clear in detailing the facts, it has been inserted in the record that that question was put; but in ordinary cases, there being no neceesity for putting the question, it is never inserted in the record. It appears that the question was put for the information of the clerk, and the case being a novel one, the fact was entered; on the jonrnals, in order to complete the narrative, but in ordinary cases no record is made, inasmuch as the question is not put either by order of the House or by statute, but simply for the information of the clerk.
MR. J. A. SMITHwished to know under what statute the hon. and learned; Member for Abingdon termed the one oath, the Protestant oath?
SIR F. THESIGER: Under no statute. I apprehend it is quite immaterial whether it is a question authorised by the statute to be put or not; but I take the question as I: find it in the journals, and as I understand it on the authority of Mr. Speaker, I that it is a question put to every hon. Member. ["No, no!"] With great submission, I understood Mr. Speaker to say that the question is one which is put by the clerk to every Member; and the question now is, whether on my Motion the House thinks it expedient that the Baron de Rothschild should have this question put to him, and of course that the House will decide for themselves.
SIR J. TYRELL: I quite agree in the importance of proceeding with deliberation and circumspection; but I submit that, in point of fact, the Baron de Rothschild has not refused to take any oath whatever. He has simply asked to be sworn in a particular way, and it is for the House to deliberate and decide upon the question, whether he shall be sworn in that way or not?
MR. J. S. WORTLEY: There is something, I think, Sir, in the distinction which has been drawn by the hon. and learned Member for the city of Oxford; for although I believe it has been the usual practice, for the convenience of Members coming to the table to be sworn, to put the question as to which oath they proposed to take—that question has not hitherto appeared on our journals. But we are here in this position, that in consequence of the surprise

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and hurry in which the question was brought forward, it does assume a formal shape on the journals. We are, therefore, in this difficulty, that in the journals it will appear that a question has been put to the Baron de Rothschild, which has received no distinct answer. I confess that I do not place so much reliance and importance upon this point, as some of my hon. Friends appear to do; but I cannot help thinking that the friends of the Baron de Rothschild are taking a most injudicious course. I think they are special pleading. I think they are trifling with a grave and important subject. What the House wants to know, and what it is entitled to know, is, does the hon. Member for London come to the table with the bonâ fide intention of taking the three necessary oaths which are required by the Act of Parliament to entitle him to take his seat? If he does, then I for one should be prepared to enter in the most candid manner into the examination of the form of oath he may desire to take; and I will add that in that case I shall not be less desirous of taking a liberal view of the question than others.
MR. MANGLES: The right hon. and learned Gentleman says, that the friends of Baron de Rothschild are special pleading, and trifling with the subject. Now, I ask him candidly to say, whether it is the friends or the opponents of Baron de Rothschild who have raised this preliminary question as to the particular book of the Bible upon which the Baron is to be sworn? Is it the friends of Baron de Rothschild, or those who are opposed to him?
MR. NEWDEGATEsaid: I think that pursuing the course indicated as that already adopted by the House in putting the question in the first instance, is the most convenient mode of proceeding, because if that course be not taken, the two oaths must be tendered to the Baron de Rothschild, and he will then have to choose between them, so that nothing will be gained by rejecting the proposition to put the question in the first instance.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The hon. and learned Member for Abingdon will allow me, with all respect, to suggest to him, that the course he now suggests would be simply an interruption to that course which he previously said he was prepared to adopt. The question now is as stated by the hon. Member for North Essex as to the form of oath, not which of the two oaths the Baron de Rothschild will
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take, but the question last raised by the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon is, whether the hon. Gentleman desires to subscribe to the Roman Catholic or the Protestant oath. Now I submit that preliminary to that is the form in which he shall be sworn. The hon. Baronet the Member for North Essex put the question clearly and distinctly, that what we have now to consider is the manner in which the oath shall be administered; and the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon agreed in the first instance that that was the first question to be raised and decided. Supposing for a moment that the question now proposed to be put to the Baron de Rothschild were put and answered, still you would have to decide on the preliminary question of the form of putting the oath. Suppose the Baron should say I will take the Roman Catholic oath, or I will take the Protestant oath, that would be as to the substance not as to the form. The first question is, the form in which he shall be sworn, and, that decided, then the question which has been raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Abingdon may be put. With regard to the fact appearing recorded in our journals that the question was put by the clerk, that, I apprehend, was the result of mere accident, arising from the novelty of the case; and the desire that the circumstances should be correctly entered.
SIR F. THESIGER: I rise to say a word in explanation. The question I wish to have put to the Baron de Rothschild will, I think, have an important bearing, if answered one way or the other, on what is called the preliminary question, though I confess I am not able to distinguish between what is called the preliminary and the main question in the case. I think it is important in the argument that we should ascertain, in the first instance, which of the forms of oath the Baron de Rothschild proposes to take, and that, I say, has an important bearing on what Gentleman on the other side are pleased to call the preliminary question.
MR. V. SMITH: The first question has not, as it appears to me, been stated in the record. The case arises in this manner. The Baron de Rothschild appeared at the table to take the oaths, when the New Testament was tendered to him by the clerk, and he answered, I demand to be sworn on the Old Testament. The answer of the Baron de Rothschild applied to the tender of the New Testament, and it is

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upon the demand raised in that answer, and in that wav, that we have to decide.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The House will recollect that when an hon. Member comes to the table to be sworn, the clerk places in his hand the New Testament, and the usual course then is to tender to him the printed form of an oath which is called in the entry the Protestant oath; but if the Member is a Roman Catholic, and desires to take the form of oath prescribed by the Act to be taken by Roman Catholic Members, he declares it. But in this case there was a preliminary objection raised by the Baron de Rothschild by the demand that he made to be sworn on the Old Testament, and not upon the New Testament, which had been placed in his hand by the clerk. That is the first question to be decided, and it seems to me that before asking the hon. Gentleman any further questions, we should decide that.
MR. HUMEexpressed a hope that the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon would withdraw his Motion, and not give the House the trouble to divide.
SIR F. THESIGERrose and said, that his object was not to give unnecessary trouble, but that they should proceed regularly, and with the leave of the House, if such was their wish, he would withdraw his Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. J. S. WORTLEYsaid: I wish to test the feeling of the House on this question, and I will now submit a Motion for that purpose. I believe it will be found uniformly in the journals that the entry has always been, in reference to taking the "oaths," in the plural number—in fact, that the oaths have always been taken collectively. I move that the Baron de Rothschild he called to the table, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to ask him, "Are you willing to he sworn to the oaths required by Act of Parliament of every Member of this House on taking his seat?"
Motion made, and Question put—
"That Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild be called to the Table, and that Mr. Speaker do put to him the following Question:—Are you willing to be sworn to the Oaths required of a Member by Act of Parliament before he takes his Seat?"
SIR T. D. ACLANDseconded the Motion.
MR. HUME: I wish only to say that that question was not put to any other Member, and that it appears to me you ought not to put a question to the hon.
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Member for the city of London which you have not put to any other Member. It would be going out of the ranks—departing from rule—to do so.
MR. GOULBURN: It was put to Mr. O'Connell—who said, in reply, that he was ready to take two of the oaths, but not the third.
SIR G. GREY: Yes, but there were no preliminary objection in Mr. O'Connell's case, as there are in this case. I think the House ought to put aside altogether the question of Baron de Rothschild's creed. The question is, as it appears to me, should he be sworn in that form which he considers most binding on his conscience? Any preliminary objection to the oaths may be taken after that. The question is, to consider the whole subject collectively, and not to consider it as distinct from another question which may arise afterwards. This question stands distinctly on its own merits, and it ought to be decided without anticipating anything which may hereafter suggest itself.
MR. SHEIL: I rise for the purpose of moving an amendment. The Amendment is this: "That Baron Lionel de Rothschild be called in, and sworn on the Old Testament." [Mr. B. OSBORNE: That is my Amendment.] Then I beg pardon. That Amendment has not been put, and therefore I hope the House will allow mo to state why I think this is the stage when such an amendment should be put. What have we already done? We have resolved to ask the hon. Member for the city of London why he chose to be sworn on the Old Testament. That was the act of the House. We have received no answer to that question, and, having received no answer to that question, it remains to be considered what we are to do? Why, we must follow up our own questions and the answers given thereto by an appropriate step. It is, however, suggested to mo, by an hon. Member sitting close by, that I am taking this Amendment out of the hands of an hon. and gallant Gentleman who gave notice that he should move it. If that is so, I will not say another word.
MR. NEWDEGATE: The right hon. Member who has just sat down has inadvertently said that the asking of the question why Baron de Rothschild wished to be sworn on the Old Testament, and his declaration that he considered that form of oath most binding on his conscience, was a step. The only step it is, is a step into a difficulty, for it is a farce to ask him to

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come here and declare his wish to be sworn on the Old Testament, and then to ask him to come back again and repeat certain words of the oath, with the positive certainty that when he comes to the conclusion of the oath to the words "on the true faith of a Christian" he will stop short, and that, after all, the proceedings will thus be rendered ineffectual. The step will, therefore, be a step into a difficulty if you decide on tendering the oath to him as it is at present framed.
MR. HUME: I think we have now come to the resolution or amendment of which I gave notice, and I will move it now if you please, on the Motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The hon. and learned Member for Bute has moved his resolution as a preliminary resolution. If that resolution is not agreed to, then we can resume the adjourned debate, and the Motion of the hon. Baronet for the University of Oxford can be put.
On Question,
The House divided:—Ayes 104; Noes 118: Majority 14.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Goddard, A. L.

Arbuthnot, hon. H.

Gordon, Adm.

Arkwright, G.

Gore, W. R. O.

Ashley, Lord

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Baldock, E. H.

Greene, T.

Barrington, Visct.

Grogan, E.

Blackall, S. W.

Gwyn, H.

Blair, S.

Halford, Sir H.

Blakemore, R.

Hamilton, G. A.

Booth, Sir R. G.

Hamilton, J. H.

Bowles, Adm.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Bremridge, R.

Harris, hon. Capt.

Brisco, M.

Hayes, Sir E.

Brockman, E. D.

Heald, J.

Brown, H.

Heneage, G. H. W.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Henley, J. W.

Cabbell, B. B.

Herries, rt. hon. J. C.

Carew, W. H. P.

Hervey, Lord A.

Chatterton, Col.

Hildyard, T. B. T.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Hogg, Sir J. W.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Hope, A.

Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B.

Hotham, Lord

Cocks, T. S.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Coles, H. B.

Jermyn, Earl

Corry, rt. hon. H. L.

Jones, Capt.

Denison, E.

Knox, Col.

Dick, Q.

Lacy, H. C.

Dickson, S.

Legh, G. C.

Disraeli, B.

Lewisham, Visct.

Dodd, G.

Lockhart, A, E.

Drax, J. S. W. S. E.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Drumlanrig, Visct.

Mahon, The O'Gorman

Duckworth, Sir J. T. B.

Manners, Lord J.

Duncuft, J.

Maunsell, T. P.

Egerton, W. T.

Morgan, O.

Frewen, C. H.

Naas, Lord

Fuller, A. E.

Newdegate, C. N.

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Nicholl, rt. hon. J.

Spooner, R.

Palmer, R.

Stafford, A.

Patten, J. W.

Stanford, J. F.

Pennant, hon. Col.

Thesiger, Sir F.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Thornhill, G.

Plumptre, J. P.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Powlett, Lord W.

Verner, Sir W.

Prime, R.

Vyse, R. H. R. H.

Pugh, D.

Waddington, H. S.

Raphael, A.

Wellesley, Lord C.

Richards, R.

Williams, T. P.

Scott, hon. F.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Seaham, Visct.

Wynn, Sir W. W.

Sibthorp, Col.

Somerset, Capt.

TELLERS.

Somerton, Visct.

Wortley, J. S.

Sotheron, T. H. S.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

List of the NOES.

Adair, R. A. S.

Heywood, J.

Anderson, A.

Heyworth, L.

Anstey, T. C.

Hill, Lord M.

Armstrong, Sir A.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Arundel and Surrey, Earl of

Hobhouse, T. B.

Howard, Lord E.

Baines, rt. hon. M. T.

Hume, J.

Baring, rt. hn. Sir F. T.

Hutt, W.

Barnard, E. G.

Jackson, W.

Bellew, R. M.

Kershaw, J.

Berkeley, Adm.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H

Bernal, R.

Langston, J. H.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Brocklehurst, J.

Lewis, G. C.

Brotherton, J.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Brown, W.

M'Cullagh, W. T.

Cayley, E. S.

M'Gregor, J.

Childers, J. W.

Mangles, R. D.

Clements, hon. C. S.

Matheson, A.

Clifford, H. M.

Matheson, J.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Matheson, Col.

Collins, W.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Melgund, Visct.

Craig, Sir W. G.

Milnes, R. M.

Crawford, W. S.

Morison, Sir W.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Duncan, G.

Osborne, R.

Dundas, Adm.

Parker, J.

Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D.

Pelham, hon. D. A.

Dunne, Col.

Pigott, F.

Ebrington, Visct.

Pinney, W.

Evans, Sir De L.

Price, Sir R.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Rawdon, Col.

Foley, J. H. H.

Reynolds, J.

Forster, M.

Ricardo, J. L.

Fortescue, hon. J. W.

Romilly, Col.

Fox, R. M.

Romilly, Sir J.

Fox, W. J.

Russell, Lord J.

French, F.

Sadleir, J.

Gaskell, J. M.

Scholefield, W.

Grace, O. D. J.

Scully, F.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Seymour, Lord

Grenfell, C. W.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Sheridan, R. B.

Grey, R. W.

Sidney, Ald.

Hall, Sir B.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Hallyburton, Lord J. F.

Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.

Harris, R.

Spearman, H. J.

Hastie, A.

Stuart, Lord D.

Hawes, B.

Tancred, H. W.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Tenison, E. K.

Headlam, T. E.

Tennent, R. J.

Henry, A.

Thompson, Col.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Thornely, T.

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Tollemache, hon. F. J.

Williams, J.

Townshend, Capt.

Wilson, M.

Vane, Lord H.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Wakley, T.

Wyvill, M.

Walmsley, Sir J,

TELLERS.

Wawn, J. T.

Wood, W. P.

Willcox, B. M.

Smith, J. A.

Order road for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [26th July]—
"That from the earliest times of the existence of a Legislature in England, no man was ever admitted to take any part therein except under the sanction of a Christian Oath; and that the Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild having requested to take the Oaths on the Old Testament, and having, in consequence, been directed by Mr. Speaker to withdraw while the House deliberated, this House refuses to alter the form of taking the Oaths."
Question again proposed.
MR. HUMEsaid, that in consequence of what had taken place to-day, matters would be somewhat altered, and therefore he begged to move that Baron de Rothschild be sworn on the Old Testament He was sorry, he observed, in this age to witness such a contest as the present, one which resolved itself into a question of religious differences. It was melancholy to think that England, which was considered so much in advance of other nations, should in reality be so backward and so much behind them. In the United States, for example, no individual was excluded from the enjoyment of civil rights by reason of any religious differences. It appeared a melancholy fact—one which would do great discredit to the House—that we should be refusing the hon. Member for the city of London that portion of his civil rights to which he was justly entitled. The question was—for it was not his intention to address many words to the House—whether the clerk should now proceed to direct Baron de Rothschild to be sworn, as he desired, on the Old Testament. He hoped there would not be much opposition raised to that question. The report which had been prepared and laid on the table of the House in April last contained the whole of the systems which had existed from the earliest ages connected with the oath taken before Parliament; and any candid man would see thereby that the difficulties which had been thrown in the way of taking oaths had been greatly relieved, until now that they came to that position in which they found the present hon. Member for the city of London placed. He entreated the House, as they were mindful of charity, not to use such means as would drive individuals into the belief that the
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Church could be affected, or that her doctrines or tenets could be interfered with, by the introduction of Dissenters. The hon. Member for the University of Oxford seemed to think that the admission of a few Dissenters would alter the character of the nation; and he had called it a Christian nation. It was a Christian nation, and he (Mr. Hume) hoped that it would continue so. But, what was the character of a Christian? It was "to do unto others as we would wish to be done by"—to throw no difficulty in the way of the civil rights to which Dissenters were entitled. The hon. Member for the city of London contributed towards the expenses of the State. He had enjoyed many of the honours and privileges to which Englishmen were entitled; and should it now be said that he was prevented from enjoying the privilege of taking his seat as a Member of the House of Commons? The Dissenters had long been persecuted. Since he (Mr. Hume) had been in Parliament, he had rejoiced to observe that many relaxations had been granted them. Toleration had for a long been the rule; religious liberty was now the question. Acts of the Legislature had decided how oaths should be taken in courts of justice. These Acts had not only cleared the way, but they authorised the House to swear Baron de Rothschild on the Old Testament. When the Baron de Rothschild should have come to the bar, and when he should be required to take the oaths prescribed, then would be the time to raise any further question. The question now was whether, agreeably to the ordinary mode adopted by his religious persuasion, he should be allowed to take that form of oath which he considered most binding on his conscience. Let the House, then, do an act of justice to the individual and to themselves; let them not exclude a man on account of any particular religious tenet, but let them, in furtherance of that religious liberty which ought to be universal, establish the fact that the Commons of England would grant complete civil rights to the subjects of the realm.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out from the first word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild, one of the Members for the City of London, having presented himself at the Table of the House, and having previously to taking the Oaths requested to be sworn on the Old Testament (being the form which he has declared at the Table to be most binding on his conscience), the Clerk be directed to swear him on the Old Testament accordingly'—instead thereof"
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. ANDERSONseconded the Amendment.
SIR F. THESIGERregretted that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose had introduced the subject of religious liberty into this discussion, because they were not considering whether it was expedient that Baron de Rothschild should be allowed to take his seat, but all they were called upon to decide at the present moment was, whether, in the particular mode proposed, a person who came to the table of the House for the purpose of being sworn, and proposed to be sworn upon the Old Testament as the form most binding upon his conscience, could be permitted to take the oaths, and having so taken them, whether he could take his seat accordingly. Now, that was the question, and the only question, which the House had to decide. It had very properly been called a question rather of a quasi-judicial character, and he did really trust the House would argue it in the spirit of such a question; that they should avoid all the heat of party debate; that they should not introduce into the subject any passion or feeling, but calmly and dispassionately consider whether, according to the existing law, what was now proposed to be done could be done. He confessed it appeared to him that, it being of course desirable they should discuss that question in its most convenient form, what had been proposed by his hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford was altogether objectionable. In the first place, he doubted whether there ought to have been any proposal made in the nature of his hon. Friend's resolution; for the Speaker having declared that what was proposed to be done was an unusual course, he apprehended there was no necessity to propose any resolution in affirmance of the present practice, but that the onus should be thrown upon those who wished them to depart from that practice; he would, therefore, suggest that his hon. Friend should withdraw his Motion, and that the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose should be substituted as a substantive Motion. That seemed to him the most desirable course. He supposed they were anxious to have the question decided in its most convenient form; and when it was proposed to depart from the practice of swearing upon the New Testament, he
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apprehended that those who insisted on the propriety of that innovation should have the onus thrown upon them of showing that it was lawful to do so. Though it was stated that there were two distinct questions to be decided, it would, on consideration, be found that in reality they resolved themselves into one. A preliminary question was suggested to them, whether Baron de Rothschild could be admitted to take the oaths on the Old Testament; and the next question suggested to follow upon that was, whether he could take the oath of abjuration on the Old Testament, professing that that was the form of oath most binding on his conscience. He believed it would be quite impossible to separate those two questions; they were involved and blended together; and if a Member coming to the table could not take the oath of abjuration in the Jewish form, that was, sworn upon the Old Testament, he (Sir F. Thesiger) thought the House would find, on careful deliberation of the subject, that he could have no right whatever, according to established law, to take any of the oaths in that particular form. It was important they should bear in mind what had taken place there, and what they had to proceed upon; for although it might be perfectly true that the question which was put by the clerk at the table was an unauthorised question, and that no Member coming to the table was bound to answer that question, yet that question had been put and answered, and the question and answer appeared on the Votes, and would in due time be transferred to the journals of the House. Now, what was the question which had been put to Baron de Rothschild? It was, "Do you claim to take the Roman Catholic or the Protestant oath?" His answer was, "I desire to be sworn upon the Old Testament." It was quite clear from his answer that Baron de Rothschild did not desire to take the Roman Catholic oath. A Member coming to the table, and desiring to take the Roman Catholic oath, must distinctly, under the 10th Geo. IV., declare his desire to take that oath. He (Sir F. Thesiger) was, therefore, entitled to assume that Baron de Rothschild did not profess to be a Roman Catholic, and did not desire to take the Roman Catholic oath. If he did not profess to be a Roman Catholic, and did not claim to take the Roman Catholic oath, all that remained was, that he must take the other three oaths, which all persons who did not pro-

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fess the Roman Catholic religion were required to take; namely, the oaths of allegiance, supremacy, and abjuration. Let him remark that when a Member came to the table to be sworn, the question was not put to him, "Are you ready to take this or that particular oath—whether of allegiance, of supremacy, or of abjuration;" but all those oaths were tendered to him, and it was impossible to separate the one from the other. Without taking all those oaths it was impossible that he could take his seat—he could not, in fact, be sworn. That was a point of important consideration in the matter. Nay, the Amendment of the hon. Member for Montrose assumed that, because it employed the expression "oaths" plurally, "that Baron de Rothschild having presented himself at the table of the House, and having previous to taking the oaths, &c.," it was quite clear that those oaths required were what were called the Protestant oaths, as distinct from the Roman Catholic oath; since, as the hon. Member was aware, there was only one oath taken by the Roman Catholics, under the 10th Geo. IV.; they were there dealing with the question whether a Member who might have all the oaths together tendered to him, and who was desirous of being sworn upon the Old Testament, as being in the form most binding upon his conscience—whether he could be admitted to be sworn in that form, it being perfectly clear that one of those oaths, namely, the oath of abjuration, contained in it the words "upon the true faith of a Christian"—that being unquestionably one of the oaths therefore which could not be taken in the Jewish form. That would be an important consideration which the House would please to bear in mind in arriving at a conclusion as to whether Baron de Rothschild, having desired to be sworn upon the Old Testament, had not altogether concluded the question against himself, and prevented the House from ever altering any more the form of the oaths to be taken at the table, inasmuch as he had declined to take the oaths, except in terms which virtually expressed his dissent from one of them, namely, the oath of abjuration. He hoped to be able to prove to the House that this was not a question depending upon the law and usage of Parliament, but upon the law of the land. He trusted he should be able to show the House that according to the provisions of existing statutes, it was quite impossible for any Member to be sworn at that table upon the Old Testa-
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ment, even though he declared that that was the form most binding upon his conscience. In order to clear the way for discussion, he would concede to those who were desirous to have Baron de Rothschild sworn in the form which he himself had proposed, that from the very earliest period in our courts of justice, Jews had been sworn both as witnesses and jurors. Before the banishment of the Jews, in the reign of Edward I., there having of course been many transactions between Jews and Christians, and many of those having led to litigations between them, it was therefore absolutely necessary that the oaths of Jews should he taken, unless the courts had been prepared entirely to refuse justice to persons of that persuasion. Accordingly, it was a rule established from an early period in the cases of dispute between Christian and Jew, to have juries composed ex mediatate, as it was called, half of Christians, who were called sex probos et legales homines, and the other half of Jews, called sex legales Judœs. So far it was true that Jews had been admitted to be sworn according to the form of their religion, and to the form which they considered as most binding on their consciences. There were many instances of this upon record in the reign of John and Henry III. His hon. Friend had fallen a little into mistake; there was not an Act of Parliament which prescribed a form of oath to be taken in courts of justice—there was no form of oath prescribed at all. From a very early period, however, the courts themselves had altered the form of oath to meet the differences of religion in the persons proposed to be sworn, adopting that form which was shown to be the most binding on the conscience of the witness. The question was at last formally raised on the case to which reference had been made, of "Omichund v. Barker," wherein it was questioned whether Hindoos might be sworn in our courts in the form of their religion, and it was then decided by Lord Chancellor Hardwicke, Lord Chief Baron Parker, Lord Chief Justice Willes, and Lord Chief Justice Lee, that the evidence of all witnesses who believed in a Supreme Being should be admitted in the form they believed most binding on their consciences. And this rule had ever since been acted upon unquestioned. It was to be observed, that though the Judges had varied the form of the oath to meet the exigencies of the occasion, yet, it being an early rule of the common law that no evidence should be

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received in any case, civil or criminal, except on the obligation of an oath, the Judges were not at liberty to dispense with an oath altogether; and it was not until 7 and 8 William III. that the affirmation of Quakers was allowed to be taken in our courts of justice, the Judges, in their cases, being obliged to resort to the Legislature for permission to dispense with the oath. It was a very remarkable thing, and one which would assist them presently still further in the consideration of the point, that for 130 years up to the 7th and 8th William III., affirmations were not received in criminal cases. The law with regard to oaths in a court of justice undoubtedly was that, ex necessitate, for the purpose of preventing justice from being defeated, they had permitted persons to be sworn in courts of justice according to the form of their religion, or according to the form most binding on their consciences. And when it was asserted that it was a general principle of law that oaths should be admitted in every case in the form which was most binding on the consciences of the persons proposed to be sworn, he ventured to deny that proposition in the extent in which it was put; and he must declare, as he hoped hon. Gentlemen would see, that that principle applied only to what were called assertory or juridical oaths, and did not extend to promissory oaths—to oaths to be taken by official persons, which were such oaths as the oaths of allegiance, supremacy, and abjuration. His proposition was, that the principle which was sought to be applied to all oaths in general was, upon the authorities, to be applied solely to juridical oaths, and not to be extended to promissory oaths. Such being the state of the case, they should now consider that they were dealing with the case of promissory oaths—that the oaths required to be taken by a Member of Parliament wore not oaths of a juridical character, to which the principle applied, but promissory oaths. The question, then, was whether such promissory oaths being required to be taken by Act of Parliament in a particular form, that general principle could be applied to that particular case. What he proposed to show was that the oath of allegiance, the oath of supremacy, and subsequently the oath of abjuration, were all of them required to be taken by Act of Parliament in what he would call the Christian form; and that the form proposed on the present occasion, which he should designate the Jewish form, was excluded from it by the
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terms of the different Acts to which attention had been called. They had had the benefit of a report on the subject, which would very much facilitate the discussion and assist the determination of Members. It was true, as had been stated, that the first trace of an Act requiring the Members of the House of Commons to take oaths was the 5th of Elizabeth. But he had no doubt in his own mind that before the 5th of Elizabeth Members of the House of Commons did take an oath—a corporal oath, as it was termed—because originally the person taking it touched the Host or Corpus Christi; and subsequently the name was retained without reference to its origin. The 5th of Elizabeth referred to the 1st of Elizabeth for the terms of the oath to be taken by Members of Parliament; which oath was the oath of supremacy, and which was a corporal oath, and to be taken upon the Holy Evangelists, and ended by saying, "So help me God, and the contents of this book." That was the first oath of supremacy. They next came to the first oath of allegiance. That was contained in the 3d of James I. It was an oath to be applied to Popish recusants; and it was not until the 7th of James I. that Members of Parliament were required to take that oath—the first oath of allegiance, and which contained the words, "upon the true faith of a Christian." Now, there had been no alteration of those oaths of supremacy and allegiance down to the 30th of Charles II.; nor had there, in fact, been any alteration in that last with regard to those oaths of supremacy and allegiance. Under the 30th of Charles II., Members of Parliament were to take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, or to take and subscribe the declaration against transubstantiation. Let them pause for a moment to inquire what were the oaths of allegiance and supremacy 30th of Charles II. applied to? Why, the oaths of the 1st of Elizabeth and the 3rd of James I.—the oath which was to be taken upon the Holy Evangelists, and which contained the words, "upon the true faith of a Christian." So matters remained until the 1st of William and Mary, when an alteration took place in the oaths of allegiance and supremacy. That Act repealed the 30th of Charles II. so far as it concerned the taking the oaths of supremacy and allegiance contained in it. It then provided another form of oath of allegiance and oath of supremacy, and it enacted that every person taking those substituted oaths

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in the manner and form in which, under the 30th of Charles II., Members were required to take them, should be considered to have taken the oaths required by the Legislature. Now, when the Legislature used the terms in the 1st of William and Mary, that the substituted oaths were to be taken in the manner and form as prescribed by the 30th of Charles II., and when this latter Act of the 30th of Charles II., referring merely to the then existing oaths, names those provided in the Acts of Elizabeth and James I., did it not appear clear that those new instituted oaths required to be taken by the 1st of William and Mary were to be taken in the manner and form of the oaths of the 30th of Charles II., namely, upon the Holy Evangelists. If that were so, he apprehended the hon. and learned Member for the city of Oxford was under a mistake the other day when he said that, between the 1st and 13th year of the reign of William and Mary, any Jew could take his seat in the Legislature so far as Acts of Parliament were concerned, because in that interval there was no Act requiring oaths to be taken on the "true faith of a Christian." But as aliens they could not take a seat in Parliament. [Mr. W. P. WOOD: The Jews were not aliens.] He would not enter into that argument now; but he would like to know how his hon. and learned Friend reconciled that statute, which was passed in 1753, for the naturalisation of the Jews, and which was repealed the following year. [Mr. W. P. WOOD: That Act only applied to foreign Jews.] His hon. and learned Friend would find that Jews had invariably been regarded as aliens down to that late period. ["No, no!"] It was sufficient, however, for him (Sir F. Thesiger) to show that the hon. and learned Gentleman was mistaken in his statement as to that interval; because the 1st of William III. provided for oaths of allegiance and supremacy to be taken upon the Holy Evangelists. There was an Act—the 1st of William and Mary, c. 8—with regard to the alteration of oaths of allegiance and supremacy, which did not apply to Members of Parliament at all. At all events, so the matter rested down to the 13th and 14th of William III.; by which Act the oath of abjuration was introduced, which contained the words, "upon the true faith of a Christian." All Members of Parliament were required to take that oath of abjuration, together with the oaths of allegiance and supremacy.
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The hon. and learned Member was under a mistake in supposing there was any doubt after the 1st of William, or that there was any necessity for Members to be sworn before the Lord Steward; for the 5th of Elizabeth and the 7th of James II. were not repealed until the 1st of William and Mary, c. 8; and it appeared to him (Sir F. Thesiger) that there was no necessity for Members taking any other oaths than those prescribed by the 1st of William and Mary. However, the 13th and 14th of William III. introduced the oath of abjuration, with the important words in it, "upon the true faith of a Christian;" and from that to the 1st of George I, there was no alteration in the form of the oath of abjuration; at all events, none with regard to any question now under discussion. The oaths continued to be taken were the oaths of allegiance and supremacy sworn on the Holy Evangelists, and the oath of abjuration containing the words "on the true faith of a Christian," and which, of course, could only be taken in the Christian form. He would advert immediately to the Acts of the reign of Queen Anne. He came next to the 1st of George I., which was the Act that contained the three oaths—the oath, of supremacy, the oath of allegiance, and the oath of abjuration, pretty much in the form in which they were now taken. The 1st George I. was supposed to have introduced a new law on the subject, because it did not refer the oath to the Holy Evangelists; and it had been held, therefore, that it operated as a repeal of the oaths in question. That was what the House had to decide. He (Sir F. Thesiger) would remark, however, that the oaths of allegiance and supremacy were word for word the oaths prescribed in the Act 1st William and Mary, as necessary to be taken on the Holy Evangelists. It had been assumed on the other side that the Act of the 1st George I. repealed these words, and enabled persons to come to the table of that House and say that they would take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy upon the Old Testament, reserving the oath of abjuration. The 16th section of the 1st George I., however, expressly required that the oath of abjuration should be taken with the other oaths, before Members elected to sit in Parliament, could take their seats in that House. And when it was found that the oath of abjuration contained the words, "on the true faith of a Christian," could it be contended, even for a single moment

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that these oaths could be taken by such person or persons in any other than the Christian form? Following out, therefore, the Act 1st George I., and considering it in its construction with regard to former Acts of Parliament, requiring that those oaths should be sworn on the Holy Evangelists, and that the words "on the true faith of a Christian," should be added to them, he maintained that the intention of the Legislature in framing them was manifest—namely, that the only form in which they were admissible, and held to be binding, was the Christian form. But if there was any doubt on the legitimate construction of this Act of Parliament, he would refer for its construction to the well-known rule of law of construing ancient statutes contemporei expositio—the best interpreter was contemporaneous exposition. How stood the case, then, in that respect? From the 1st George I., to the present time, no person had presented himself at the table of that House claiming to be sworn in any other form than the form proscribed by that Act; therefore, if any difficulty was felt in the case, the House could resort to the construction put upon the statute by the practice since that period. This practice was adverse to the claim before the House; and, consequently, he had a right to maintain, even upon that ground, that the oath was held to be binding in the Christian form alone. The question, therefore, was not one dependent on the law and usage of Parliament—it depended on the Acts and statutes which he had recited; and he argued that no power existed in this country to change the form of an oath as fixed by Act of Parliament—especially a promissory oath—except the authority of the Legislature. His hon. and learned Friend on the other side of the House would not dispute that proposition, for he would find in the very case which he had alluded to—that respecting the swearing of infidels—that Lord Chief Justice Willes, confirming the doctrine of Lord Coke, had laid it down that it was an alteration of the oath, seeing that it applied not to a promissory but to a juridical oath. He (Sir F. Thesiger) therefore submitted that it was quite impossible for that House, without violating an Act of the Legislature, to administer the oaths in question to Baron de Rothschild in any other than the Christian form, the form always used in that House on such occasions, unless it were permitted by special legislation. He would not omit in his observa-
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tions the case of 1st and 2nd Victoria, cap. 105, on which such great stress had been laid by hon. Members opposite. A member of the Provincial Synod of Ulster had had his house broken into and robbed, and he was called as a principal witness on the trial of the parties implicated. The trial took place before Chief Baron Joy; and when the witness came to be sworn, he declined to kiss the book, proposing to bold up his hand and swear in that fashion. The Judge doubted whether the oath so taken could be held as binding, but he permitted him to be sworn, and reserved the case for the opinion of the twelve Judges. The twelve Judges, however, came to the determination that the oath to be duly sworn should have been administered in the usual form—namely, kissing the book; and so justice was defeated. If that oath had been so administered in England, it would have been held good and sufficient, because it had been decided in 1657 by Chief Justice Glynn, when the Chancellor of Oxford claimed to be sworn not by kissing the book, but by placing his hand on it as it lay open before him, that this form of oath was as "good as any other, if it was considered by the testator as equally binding." No doubt such a form had been held binding on the conscience of parties in England for a long period, and therefore it was rightly ruled to be equally good as any other. Under these circumstances, however, Lord Denman considered it necessary to introduce a declaratory Act on the subject for the whole kingdom—an Act in affirmance of the law as it existed, not creating any new law—namely, 1st and 2nd Victoria, c. 105. That Act enacted—
"That in cases in which an oath may lawfully be and shall have been administered to any person, either as a juryman, or as a witness, or deponent in any proceeding, civil or criminal, in any court of law or equity in the United Kingdom, or on appointment to any office or employment, or on any occasion whatever, such person is bound by the oath administered, provided the same shall have been administered in such form and with such ceremonies as such person may declare to be binding; and every such person, in case of wilful false swearing, may be convicted of the crime of perjury in the same manner as if the oath had been administered in the form and with the ceremonies most commonly adopted."
This was an Act, it would be observed, affirmatory of the existing law, as declared by the Legislature: but it was not an Act enabling from thenceforth persons to take any oath they chose, but only such as was declared by them to be binding on their consciences. Affirmatory statutes, declar-

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atory of the law, did not repeal the law, nor did they abrogate previous affirmatory Acts of Parliament. He therefore contended that the Act in question, 1st and 2nd Victoria, c. 105, had no such operation upon any existing law; and, consequently, that if any law previously existent prescribed the administration of an oath in a particular form, it effected no abrogation of that statute. Notwithstanding these words applied to courts of law and justice in their general sense, he would admit even a wider sense for them; but still he maintained that the Act in question had no effect upon the common law as regarded its abrogation, nor upon the statutes, in respect of their repeal. It had, however, been sought to make this Act a substitute for the 1st George I. in the case under consideration. To make it so it should apply to every occasion and every such oath. But could it be seriously contended for a single moment that the oath of abjuration and other oaths required to be taken by the statute 1st George I. could be taken, as of right, by any person claiming to do so under the 1st and 2nd Victoria in the Jewish form. The question, therefore, was still to be decided, and that decision was to be governed by the statutes to which he had drawn the attention of the House—especially by the 1st George I. Having arrived at this point of his argument, it was scarcely necessary for him to argue that the words "on the true faith of a Christian" were essential to the oath, and that no one could legally take that abjuration and omit those words. If there were any doubt on this subject, he would refer hon. Members to a passage in the report, to which attention had been directed in the Committee. He alluded to an extract in page 16 from the 10th George I., which confirmed an Act of the previous year, and proceeded thus:—
"And whereas the following words are contained in the latter part of the oath of abjuration, namely, 'Upon the true faith of a Christian,' be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, that whenever any of His Majesty's subjects professing the Jewish religion shall present himself to take the said oath of abjuration, in pursuance of the above-recited Act, or of this present Act, the said words, 'Upon the true faith of a Christian,' shall he omitted out of the said oath in administering the same to such person; and the taking the said oath by such person professing the Jewish religion, without the words aforesaid, in like manner as Jews are admitted to be sworn to give evidence in courts of justice, shall be deemed to be a sufficient taking of the abjuration oath, within the meaning of this and the said recited Act."
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There also was a subsequent Act of the Kith George II. to the same effect. It was at one time contended in the Committee that the words "upon the true faith of a Christian" were part of the jurat; but upon these Acts being pointed out, the Solicitor General, though he had originally taken a different view, admitted they were conclusive on the subject, and that the words wore evidently intended by the Legislature as a substantial and essential part of the law. Assuming that Baron de Rothschild was of the Jewish persuasion—for the House possessed no information on the subject—he would call their attention to the evidence given by a very respectable member of that persuasion, Mr. Alderman Salomons, before the Committee. The Chairman asked, "What is your objection to the oath of abjuration?" and Mr. Alderman Salomon's reply was—
"I have no objection whatever to the oath of abjuration, except to the words 'Upon the true faith of a Christian,' as being quite inconsistent with the form in which I am sworn, and it would no doubt make me, if I adopted those words, a very unfit public officer, and a very dishonourable individual; and it would be besides, in my opinion, an offence and an insult committed against the community at large.
"As far as you know the members of your persuasion, and the rules and regulations which govern them, they could not take an oath with those words in it, 'Upon the true faith of a Christian?—Most assuredly not."
Under these circumstances, he (Sir F. Thesiger) had a right to assume that Baron de Rothschild would not take the oath of abjuration with the words "on the true faith of a Christian." As he (Sir F. Thesiger) took it, the House was not, however, prepared to strike those words out of that oath. He took it that no one could take his scat in that House without taking the three oaths of allegiance, of abjuration, and of supremacy, except he was a Roman Catholic. Baron de Rothschild was not a Roman Catholic. Therefore it was quite impossible, according to his (Sir F. Thesiger's) view of the question, that Baron de Rothschild could be permitted to take these oaths in the form proposed. In this inference he was sanctioned, and, indeed, fully borne out by the conduct of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. The question was one of deep interest, and many persons of the highest intelligence and learning in the law were deeply interested in its solution, Therefore, it did appear to him to be strange that no person had ever dreamt of the

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course pursued on the present occasion in respect to its settlement. The noble Lord had shown his opinion to he adverse to that course by the different Bills which he had laid upon the table of the House to settle the question by legislation. These Bills spoke as plainly as acts could speak, that the noble Lord's view on the subject was, that this settlement could only he accomplished by the act of the Legislature. The report of the Committee, on which the noble Lord sat, contained all that could be said on the subject; and the noble Lord had laid his Bills on the table of the House after that report was made, showing thereby, in the strongest possible manner, that there was, in his opinion, no other mode of introducing to that House a member of the Jewish persuasion, or of any other form of faith differing from the Christian, except by an Act of Parliament. Under these circumstances, he called upon the House to pause before they took the step at present proposed to them—a step which he considered one of the most vital importance. He admitted that the occasion was novel and unprecedented; but that fact only made it all the more clear that to yield to the proposal and administer the oaths in question to Baron de Rothschild according to the Jewish form, would not only be a departure from precedent, hut a violation of existing Acts of Parliament. And then he reminded them this course would necessarily prepare for the day—which day would certainly arrive—a day of mischief, if not a day of danger, in which the House of Commons would be brought into collision not only with the courts of law on the question, but also with the House of Lords. He knew the noble Lord at the head of the Government was fully prepared to maintain boldly and fearlessly all the privileges of that House, but he was quite sure the noble Lord would feel with him that it was not desirable to invite such a collision as he had mentioned. He believed they would enter upon such a contest with the authority of the law and of precedent against them, and he certainly did look forward with very great apprehension to a struggle under such circumstances. He would conclude by expressing his conviction that no person could claim to be sworn in as a Member of that House unless he was prepared to take the oaths of allegiance, supremacy, and abjuration, and that in the form the Legislature had invariably provided—namely, in the Christian, and not according to any other form.
LORD J. RUSSELL: Sir, I am anxious to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Abingdon, not only because he has most ably stated the arguments on this question on which he founds his opinion—that Baron de Rothschild ought not to be permitted to take the oaths at the table upon the Old Testament, but also because he has treated this question as I think it alone ought to be treated—as strictly a judicial matter of debate. Before I sit down I may have to notice some representations which have been made to the House to induce the House to treat the matter in a different spirit, but at present I shall refer immediately to the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken. That hon. and learned Gentleman has laid it down that oaths promissory have always been taken in a Christian form, and that this House is bound not only by the usage and law and custom of Parliament, but by actual statute upon the point. Now the principle on which I wish to proceed is this—the electors of the city of London have sent to this House as their representative a Gentleman elected by a majority of those who have voices in the matter. They have not only returned him once, but twice, to this House; and I say that it is due to them—it is due to the whole body of the electors of this united kingdom—that we should take heed that they are put in the enjoyment of the full right to which they can pretend—that nothing but a positive obstacle of law should induce us to refuse admission to his seat in this House a Member so elected, and claiming entrance. I think that we ought to give every facility in a case of this kind, short of that positive obstruction of law; and that when this point arises, and then only, we ought to refuse to the Member claing his seat admission, and the right to take it. The hon. and learned Gentleman has, I observe, been obliged in this subject not only to deduce from Acts of Parliament that which is not in their letter, and which moreover is not clearly prescribed by their enactments, but also to deduce inferences from the language of former Acts of Parliament—some of which have been repealed—but which the hon. and learned Gentleman seems to think ought, by inference, to he binding upon us on this occasion. I will endeavour, Sir, to inquire whether there are any of these Acts of Parliament which are so binding as to oblige us to refuse to Baron de Rothschild the power of taking the oaths in the form which he has

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declared to be the most binding on his conscience. The hon. and learned Gentleman has stated his belief that previous to the 5th of Elizabeth there were oaths prescribed to be taken by Members of Parliament. Now, I know no authority for such an assertion; and, for my part, conceiving myself bound by all the Acts of Parliament remaining unrepealed, I yet doubt the policy of the restrictive Acts upon this subject; and I conceive that although we are bound to conform to the letter of the statutes, we may yet confess that all these complicated Acts have given us no additional advantage—that they have been of use only in entangling the consciences and perplexing the minds of those who have to take the oaths presented under them, and that they have never afforded any further security for the allegiance of subjects, nor made any better provision for the legislation of Parliament. I therefore, instead of believing with the hon. and learned Gentleman, believe rather that the wisdom of ancient legislation, be fore those unhappy dissensions arose which have severed into various parties the Christian body—that that wisdom led our forefathers not to prescribe the administration of oaths on Members taking their seats in Parliament. It is no doubt of importance, although not of paramount importance, to see whether we are deviating from the ancient spirit of legislation. Let it then be admitted that there is an Act, the 5th of Elizabeth, prescribing the oaths to he taken, and providing that those oaths are to be corporeal, and that they are therefore to he sworn on the Holy Evangelists. The 7th of James I. likewise prescribes corporeal oaths to be taken on the Holy Evangelists. Here the hon. and learned Gentleman stops, and says it is quite clear that if oaths were to be taken on the Holy Evangelists that such were Christian oaths, and that we are bound to take care that any oaths now to be taken shall be Christian oaths still. Well, at this point I also pause. I find a Gentleman duly elected a Member of the House prepared to take tin oaths; in an unusual form indeed, but that only an unusual form because no other Member has ever wished to be sworn in tin same fashion. There is no instance, no precedent, of any Member having refused to take the ordinary oath. Baron de Rothschild, however, now comes before us and asks for the privilege of being sworn in the manner which he considers most binding; and it is for us to consider, the
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demand being new, how we are to construe the Acts by which we are bound, and the customs and usages of Parliament. Well, then, having no precedent as to the usages of the House, so far as a refusal to take tin.' oaths on the New Testament is concerned, I naturally go to the usages of the courts of law, and before I come to the distinction between permissory oaths and juridical oaths. I look to see how the courts have interpreted the command to take the oath on the Holy Evangelists. Now, I admit, that if the Act were in force which prescribed that course, that we should suppose in general that the Bible was meant by the words "Holy Evangelists." But I find, however, that Lord Chancellor Hardwicke said—
"If a Jew should be indicted for perjury, and it is laid in the indictment that he swore tactis sacro-sanctis Dei Evangeliis, yet, according to Hale, the word 'evangeliis' in the indictment may be answered by the Old Testament, which is the evangelium of the Jews"
Now, when I read this, I say that I do net think that the words contained in the Acts of Elizabeth and James are, in fact, conclusive upon the point. But, beyond this, I find two very remarkable circumstances—the one being, that in the statute of I George I., which regulates our proceedings, I do not find any similar directions. The hon. Gentleman dwells on the authority of that Act but I submit that if that Act I repeals former Acts, that the Acts of Elizabeth and James I. are no longer to guide us—that we are not bound by the words on the "Holy Evangelists" to administer oaths only on the New Testament—and that at this moment there is no Act which; forbids us to administer oaths on the Old Testament. It is another important consideration that, from the 1st to the 13th William III., there was no oath which directly excluded Jews from coming to this table to he sworn. No doubt it may be rightly urged—but into that question I am not at present entering—that Jews were then prevented by statute, by the law of the land, from sitting in Parliament; but the question is now whether there was anything at the time under discussion which prevented their sitting in Parliament, so far as the preliminary oaths were concerned. The words "on the true faith of a Christian" were not then part of the oath; and will any person contend that if an elected Member had presented himself at the table to take the oaths—supposing that there had been no legal disqualification to prevent his being so elected—it

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would have been urged that the Acts of Elizabeth and James were then so binding on you that you ought to have excluded the Jew because he would take the oaths only on the Old Testament? We come, then, to consider what is the manner in which oaths have been taken. The hon. and learned Gentleman says that they have always been taken in a Christian form; but at the same time he contended that this was a matter of positive statute, and, as I submit, he failed to make out that by positive statute we were bound to administer oaths in the form in which we usually proceed. The hon. and learned Gentleman could only show what had been the custom according to ancient Acts of Parliament. But the custom had been unvaried only because those who had presented themselves to be sworn had been willing, invariably, to take the oaths upon the New Testament. And unless you can point out that there is some statute which prevents the oath from being administered upon the Old Testament, I do not think that you ought to insist upon an objection which throws back the claims of an hon. Member duly elected. Well, Sir, an hon. Gentleman has tried to answer the argument derived from the Act of Parliament recently passed, which provides that if persons be sworn upon any occasion of appointment to office or employment, such persons are to take and be bound by the oath of allegiance. I do not think that that statute is conclusive upon the subject, but at all events it does this—it secures you from one of the dangers of admitting an oath not otherwise described, insomuch that if the person taking it be guilty of perjury, he would be subject to all the pains and penalties appointed in cases in which violation has taken place of an oath taken in the usual manner. Well, then, what are the oaths which the hon. Member for London would have to take? The hon. and learned Gentleman contends that these oaths are of such a nature as to form a conclusive objection, in the first instance, against the hon. Member's being sworn upon the Old Testament. Now, I own it appears to me that you ought not to go so far as to preclude argument on this subject. It does indeed appear to me that those Acts to which the hon. and learned Gentleman refers—the 9th of George I. and the 17th of George II., giving permission, as these Acts do in some cases, to omit the expression in question—do preclude the House from omitting the words "on the true faith
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of a Christian" upon this occasion. But the question now is, whether the hon. Member for London should be allowed to go so far as to be sworn upon the Old Testament, and to state, either by himself or by counsel, what oaths he is ready to take, and in what sense he is ready to take them. Some have contended, and contended very properly, that the words "on the true faith of a Christian" are only the sanction and confirmation of the oaths, and do not belong to the oaths themselves. Now, Sir, I think, whatever may be the weight of that statement, that the Member claiming admission to the House should not be sent away at once from the table without the opportunity of supporting it by argument. My own opinion is, that if these words had been stated in the beginning of the oath—"I am a Christian," or "I profess myself a Christian," it might have been inconsistent with such an oath that the person taking it should swear upon the Old Testament. But that is not the present case—it is entirely different. The original intention of putting in the words "on the true faith of a Christian" appears to have been in order to give a solemnity and sanction to the oaths with regard to one class of Christians, namely, the Roman Catholics, who might have been then suspected of being disaffected towards the Crown, but not to have been intended for he purpose of excluding the Jews. That, Sir, is the material point of the argument. I have said, that I think myself that it is not in the power of this House to dispense with the words "on the true faith of a Christian." When that question comes to be debated, I certainly, according to all the study which I have been able to give to the subject, shall feel myself compelled to vote against these words being omitted in the oath. At the same time I do not think that you are enabled at present to declare that Baron de Rothschild shall not be sworn according to the form which is most binding upon his conscience; and looking on this as being a matter for grave deliberation, I think that we must allow to the hon. Member who proposes to be sworn at the table every latitude, in order that his case may be fairly and amply stated. I think that this much is due to the electors of the city of London—this much is due to the Member of Parliament elected by them—this much is due for the satisfaction of the rights, not so much of the individual primarily inte-

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rested, as for those of the whole of the: people of this country. And now, Sir, I will allude to a view which has been taken of this question, and against which I feel it my duty to protest. It was said the other day, in the course of this debate, that so far from this not being a party question, it was essentially a party question, and indeed the greatest party question of the day—that it was the question of prejudice against progress—of intolerance and bigotry against the principles of civil and religious liberty. Sir, I utterly dissent from these doctrines. If it were a question of prejudice and bigotry against civil and religious liberty, then what would have been my course upon the matter may be gleaned from this fact, that I have no doubt whatever that the Jews ought to be admitted to the right of sitting in this House, and that there are no valid reasons—nothing, in fact, but a remnant of the persecuting spirit which could wish to prevent them. But that which you have now to consider is no party question—is no theoretical question; it is a question whether you are enabled by the law as it now stands to allow a Member who is a Jew to be sworn in such fashion as he can take the oaths. I feel convinced that if you are of opinion—that if those of the House who are most opposed to the admission of the Jews be, nevertheless, of opinion—that, lawfully, Baron de Rothschild can take his seat, you ought, by all means—whatever political consequences you think may follow—however much you may wish to avoid any alteration of the Christian character of this House—I think that you ought undoubtedly, and at once, to admit him. But, on the other hand, should you not think that the law enables the hon. Gentleman to take his seat according to the statutory provisions which are now in force, then, in that case, no opinion favourable to according the claims of the Jews by means of a legislative measure ought to induce you to move forward one step in the direction in which you have been summoned. If, however, you determine to take any other course—if you determine to take a course which will bring you into collision with the courts of law without being justified by the words of the Acts of Parliament on which you rely, depend upon it that the most serious evils may—indeed, must—follow. Not that I should be afraid, were I well convinced that I was in the right, of meeting the decisions of any court of law.
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But there is a question beyond this. If you be not convinced that you are acting according to law—if you be prepared to act according to conscience, and for the promotion of civil and religious liberty—you will then be exorcising that dispensing power, the employment of which has, upon one great occasion, induced the people of this country, and induced them with great cause and justice, to bring about a revolution. I should be sorry, indeed, if this House, which now possesses much of the power formerly belonging to the Crown, should attempt to exercise any such power. I was sorry to hear it proclaimed in this House that we ought to treat this question otherwise than as a judicial question; but I was happy to find that the hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke before me has handled it in a proper manner; and I trust that throughout the remainder of this discussion the debate will be carried on upon similar principles. I have now, Sir, stated the result to which I have come on the present occasion. I think that the Member claiming his seat ought to have his demand complied with, that he should be sworn upon the Old Testament; and, that, further, the House ought most earnestly and deliberately to weigh everything which can be said in favour of his actually being allowed to take his seat. But, according to my deliberate opinion, I cannot lend myself to the changing of the words of the oath, "On the true faith of a Christian," without the sanction and support of an Act of Parliament.
SIR R. H. INGLIScould not follow the noble Lord without acknowledging the moral courage and the prudence of his speech, and thanking him for both. But he would respectfully ask the noble Lord in what state he would place Baron de Rothschild when he came to the table? The noble Lord seemed to forget that the taking the book in the hand and kissing it was not the first but the last act connected with the taking the oath, and that the hon. Member for London must hold in his hand the three oaths, and must be considered as binding himself to all the three. Let it not be forgotten that these oaths were not imposed by mere resolution of I the House; they were as much parts of the statute law of the land as Magna Charta or the Bill of Rights, and, whether right or wrong, they bad absolutely and essentially the force of Acts of Parliament. It was quite a mistake to suppose that the question was decided by Lord Denman's Act.

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Where cases were specified, and there were also general words in a statute, the general words were to be construed with reference to cases ejusdem generis; there was no pretence for saying that such a case as that of the Baron de Rothschild was ever contemplated by Parliament at the time Lord Denman's Act was passed; and if this was not a case of the same kind with those specified in the Act, the Act might as well—for this question—never have been passed. He had been told that it would be desirable to give the House the opportunity of dividing upon the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose, instead of calling upon them to affirm a negative. He (Sir R. Inglis) preferred his own proposition, but would not press it if he understood it to be the wish of the House to take the division upon the affirmative rather than the negative. At that hour (past three o'clock) he would not detain the House further.
SIR G. GREYproposed that, as there was to be a Commission at a quarter before five o'clock, the debate should now be adjourned, unless the House were ready to divide at once.
MR. DISRAELIsaid, that to-morrow was fixed for the Parliamentary Voters (Ireland) Bill.
LORD J. RUSSELL: Possibly the House would allow him to take that Bill on Thursday instead of next day.
MR. DISRAELIapprehended that it would be more convenient to adhere to the arrangement which had been made.
LORD J. RUSSELLcertainly would not, after what he had said, postpone that Bill if there was any objection to a postponement.
MR. B. OSBORNEwould object to an adjournment of the present debate even to the next day. The question being one of privilege, the discussion ought be continued. After the somewhat extraordinary speech of the noble Lord, those who supported the claim were placed in a dilemma. If his own opinion had any weight with the Gentlemen on his side of the House, he should recommend them to grant no supply to the noble Lord till he had brought in a Bill to remedy the grievance brought before the notice of the House. The noble Lord, after his speech, was bound to proceed by Bill immediately; and he (Mr. Osborne) hoped that Gentlemen favourable to that proceeding would join him in refusing supply at present. He would move that the debate be resumed at Five o'clock.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that except with the general concurrence of the House, the debate ought not to be postponed to another day.
MR. C. ANSTEYwished to give the noble Lord at the head of the Government an opportunity of explanation. He had stated very justly that this was a judicial question; he (Mr. Anstey) wished to ask him, before his unfortunate and unadvised speech went forth to the country, whether Members were to understand that whatever might be the arguments they should bring forward in this discussion in exposition of the right of Baron de Rothschild to his seat after taking an oath in which the words "upon the true faith of a Christian" were omitted, it was the intention of the noble Lord to give his vote with those who had hitherto opposed any concession upon this subject?
LORD J. RUSSELL: This question is of course not new to me. I was told last year, as well as this year, that it was very likely Baron de Rothschild might be advised to ask to take his seat, and of course it became my duty to consider the question very maturely. I did so consider it, both last year and this; and last year I asked the then Attorney General, and this year I have asked the present Attorney General, and neither of them has been able to advise me to vote in favour of the seat being taken with the omission of the words "upon the true faith of a Christian." I could not either bring my own mind to that conclusion; and with this opinion, and with the best study I could give to the question, I have come to this result, which I have thought it my duty to state, as the question was before the House. As to presuming that the hon. and learned Member for Youghal may not bring arguments so convincing as to alter my judgment, that certainly I will not pretend to do; and if he should be able so to convince me, I must own that I have been utterly wrong, and follow him into the lobby.
MR. S. HERBERTsuggested that, as no Member had risen to speak upon the first question, the House might dispose of that by dividing at once.
MR. NEWDEGATEwished to know whether the House, by what had passed, was precluded from discussing whether the Baron de Rothschild had any right to take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy?
LORD J. RUSSELLhad thought the hon. Member, and those who acted with him, had made up their minds with respect

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to the proposition of the hon. and learned Attorney General the other day. Of course, Baron de Rothschild could not be compelled to address any argument to the House with reference to the question.
MR. W. P. WOOD, believing there were many Members who were desirous of addressing the House on the main question. and after the speech of the noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown, upon which he (Mr. P. Wood) should certainly like to offer some opinions, possibly at some length, was in favour of the debate being adjourned.
Debate adjourned till this day at Five o'clock.

THE BRISTOL RIOTS—ARMY ESTIMATES —EXPLANATION.
MR. CODRINGTON: Sir, I rise to claim the indulgence of the House while refer to a matter which is personal to myself. On Friday last, during my absence from the House, the hon. Member for Bristol alluded to me, and made assertions with regard to my conduct, which are not founded in fact, and which are calculated to disparage my character, and the character of the troop of yeomanry which I have the honour to command. I will not enter into all the personalities in which the hon. Member indulged; but he said that during the incendiary riots known by the name of the "Swing riots," "the lords lieutenant of counties called out the yeomanry, but they could not get the yeomanry to come; that it was a general; complaint throughout the country; that at that time fire-raising was the order of the day, and every yeoman feared he might become a marked man, and the lords lieu I tenant reported to the Government the inefficiency of the whole of the yeomanry corps of the west of England"—that "the opinion of almost all lords lieutenant with whom he had spoken was, that the yeomanry were useless as a constabulary, because they could not be brought to bear upon any given point on a sudden emergency; that they might carry a troop of Life Guards from London to Leicester in less time than it would take to assemble an effective troop of yeomanry in Leicester; that they might carry a couple of guns, with their attendant artillerymen, from Woolwich to Bristol, in less time than it would take to assemble an effective body of yeomanry in Bristol, for an effective body of yeomanry could not be assembled in an average-sized county within forty-
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eight hours"—"that, in the case of the Bristol riots, about ten of the Somersetshire Yeomanry marched into Bristol, and they were kindly locked up by the authorities to prevent the mob from harming them"—that "he found it narrated that Captain Codrington having been sent for by the magistrates, appeared in Bristol after some time at the head of the Doddington Troop of Yeomanry; but the hon. Gentleman on that occasion certainly performed the feat achieved by the King of France, who, they were told—
'Marched up a hill, and then marched down again;'
for he marched into Bristol at the head of his troop, at the request of the magistrates, and he inarched out again by the light of the Bristol fires." I have now to say, Sir, that the first intimation I received of the Bristol riots was at three o'clock on a Sunday afternoon—that I immediately sent round to my troop, consisting of sixty members, and that in less than four hours I had fifty-nine members in the saddle, and in less than four hours more we were in Bristol, having marched upwards of fifteen miles. As soon as they arrived at Bristol I reported myself to Colonel Brereton, the commander of the district, who kept mo in conversation for some time. I told him that we had come a long march, that we had been in the for some hours, and that we were anxious to act. He said, "Sir, you cannot act without a magistrate." said, "We will make every endeavour to find a magistrate." He said there was none. I told him, "If you will come with me, I have no doubt we shall be able to find one." He accompanied me to several houses in the town, hut we could find no magistrate. He then said, "You had better leave the town. I have been obliged to call in the 14th Light Dragoons. The people will be quiet, only do not go into the town. The sooner you leave the better." I ask the House what alternative I had after that but to march away? I should have given evidence at the court-martial on Colonel Brereton, had he not terminated his existence. I have only now to ask the House what reliance can be placed on the assertion of the hon. Member for Bristol?

OATHS OF JEWISH MEMBERS—THE BARON DE ROTHSCHILD—ADJOURNED DEBATE
Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question?"
Debate resumed.
MR. C. ANSTEYsaid, it was evident, from the speech which they had that morning heard from the noble Lord the Member for London that the Ministers of the Crown had no intention of supporting the Motion for enabling the Baron de Rothschild to take his seat in that House. In the view which he himself took of this question, and therefore in the mode in which he proposed to discuss it, he feared that he should be rather doing injustice than otherwise to the case of that Gentleman; for he doubted that the House would ever he allowed to go into that which constituted the more important part of the question. For this reason, then, he should trouble the House with only a very few remarks. He was sorry to observe that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Abingdon bad committed himself to such propositions as the House had hoard from him. He would take, for example, the observations made by his hon. and learned Friend with regard to the case of the Quakers. From the period of the Revolution till the year 1828 the affirmation of Quakers could not be received in criminal cases; but surely it would not be supposed that his hon. and learned Friend was ignorant of the Bill that had passed upon this subject; and then his hon. and learned Friend, forgetting all that he had said about the Quakers, and forgetting also the real state of the facts, asserted that no one had ever been permitted to sit in that House without first taking the oaths, and that too in whatever manner was supposed to be most binding upon men's consciences; and even the hon. and learned Member went the length of saying that the Host was used as the medium of the ceremony of taking the oaths in that House. Now, there was not the least ground for any such statement. Did the hon. and learned Member really forget that Mr. Pease, the Quaker Member, had been admitted first without oaths, and though almost immediately afterwards a Bill was passed legalising the affirmation of Quakers in lieu of oaths? That was the thing wanted—they wanted that the Gentleman elected for London should take his seat, and that any further measures necessarily consequent upon such a step should be forthwith adopted, and that then the House of Commons do invite the House of Lords to unite with them in those measures. The main point at issue, as the House must remember, was the
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form of abjuration. In the common law oath the form was, "So help me God, and his holy Gospels;" but they knew, not only from the cases cited by the noble Lord the Member for London, but from much older cases, that the Old Testament was spoken of as the holy Evangelists; and anciently there were no oaths imposed which any Jew or any heathen might not take—nothing required, either by the statute or the common law, inconsistent with the principles of any church or sect. The hon. and learned Member for Abingdon had taken a distinction between the juridical and the promissory oath, but he confessed that that distinction was one which he did not understand; nor did any such distinction seem to have formerly prevailed, for from the Great Roll of Richard I. it appeared that two Jews had been appointed Judges on taking the oath. The words were these, Benedictus de Talemunt et Josephus Aaron Judei, Justiciarii Judeorum. Then there was the Close Roll of 31st of Henry III., containing these words, Sacramentum fidelitatis Regi debitum pretextu officii sui; and in the Close Roll of the 33d of Henry III., was this passage:—
"Abrahamus filius Vines sit clericus Regis in scaccario Judeorum, loco Abrahami filii Muriel; acceptis ab eodem Abrahamo sufficientibus plegiis de fidclitate."
Thus were Jews admitted to those offices. Again, the Close Roll of the 4th of Edward I. contained the following passage:—
"Quum Dominus Henricus Rex habere solebat quendam Judeum intendentem officio eschaetarix de catallis et tenementis quæ ad ipsum quâcum-que ratione contigerint, assignavimus Benedictum de Winton Judeum ad idem, &c., accepto ab eodem Sacramento corporali fideliter quod se habebit in officio predicto quamdiu steterit in eodem, &c."
As to the admission of Jews or others to a seat in Parliament on taking certain oaths, there was no particular precedent. In the reign of Edward III. the House of Commons was considered a part of the Great Council of the nation, and the law as applicable to the Great Council was applicable also to the Members of the House of Commons. The oaths taken by the Members of that body required them to keep the King's counsel private, to do right unto all, to inform the King of any league against him, to refuse all gifts from the Crown—it might perhaps be advantageous if that rule were renewed; and such oaths the Members of the House of Commons took, concluding with the words,

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"So help me, God," Jews being at that time admitted into Parliament; but that, of course, was before the ordinance by which they were expelled the kingdom. In the 25th of Henry III. the different communities (counties, cities, and boroughs) sent up their representatives to Parliament, occasionally those of the north, and of the south, and of Wales, constituting separate assemblies, but Jews were not excluded; on the contrary, the Close Roll of Henry III., on the 24th of January, in the 25th year of his reign, stated that the sheriffs and others were directed to send six or two Jews, according to the population. The words were—
"Sex (vel duos, secundum numerum, &c.)de ditioribus et potentioribus Judeis nostris N. et de singulis villis comitatûs tui, in quibus Judei manent; ad tractandum nobiscum tam de nostrâ quam suâ utilitate."
On Quinquagesima Sunday, 1241, they voted for this part of the general subsidy 20,000 marks. From all this it became evident that Jews had often sat in Parliament, and were admitted to take their seats without being called on to take any oaths to which they could object. In the reign of Henry VI. the Jews not only contributed to the pecuniary wants of the monarch, but to the entertainment of the Court, for the Rachels of that age were amongst the performers who appeared before Henry VI. in dramatic pieces. At the period of the Restoration there were, however, only twelve Jews in England; but in the reign of William III. it appeared from the debates of Grey, who was thirty years chairman of Committees in that House, that the Parliament being in want of money to carry on the war with France, came to the resolution that, according to ancient custom, practised by their forefathers upon the forefathers of the Jews, they would impose on them the payment of a good round sum—such as would in a certain degree relieve the country gentlemen from the pressure of the land tax. Hence, on the 7th of November, 1689, they by resolution taxed the Jews to the amount of 100,000 l.; but before any Bill for the purpose was introduced, the Jews presented a petition to the House, which petition was rejected because the Speaker could not recollect any case where the House received a petition respecting a Bill of which they were not yet seised. The Jews claimed by their petition not to be taxed, because they said, though some of them were aliens, many of them were naturalised subjects.
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The petition was not received; but so great was the effect on the House, that although the Bill was read a third time, it was not proceeded with; and what was the consequence? When next the Land Tax Act and Poll Tax Act came to be passed, the Jews were treated as natural subjects. Aliens were taxed as before, but the Jews were classified as Christians were, and taxed in specific sums certainly, but not as aliens. There was a general impost on all classes of subjects who were taxed under that law; but at the same time it contained a clause for a double impost on Nonjurors and Papists. There was a clause in that Act exempting Quakers from taking the oath, but there was no provision to exempt Jews; therefore he could not recognise the views of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Abingdon, that Parliament had legislated on the subject in ignorance. With regard to the Naturalisation Act of George II., it wos unworthy of hon. Members to cheer as they did the allusion that had been made to that Act. They must have known that that was an Act for the naturalisation of foreign Jews, and that it was not their intention to qualify an alien to sit in Parliament. It was because Baron de Rothschild was not an alien—it was because Jews born in this country were as much Englishmen as hon. Gentlemen opposite—that they disliked to see them kept out of the pale of the constitution. That motive would, he trusted, cause them to persevere in their exertions, whether the ex-Ministers or Her Majesty's Government made up their minds to join in the cause of liberty and justice, and even at that late hour render reparation to a persecuted body of English subjects. One word with regard to the opinion of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. The noble Lord said, this was not a question of civil and religious liberty, but a judicial question. He (Mr. Anstey) did not know what the noble Lord meant by a judicial question; but the noble Lord approached the discussion of the question by prejudging it. Without having heard a syllable at the bar or on the floor of the House, by way of observation on the third oath—an oath which he (Mr. Anstey) should endeavour to satisfy the House—notwithstanding the opinion of the noble Lord—was an illegal oath, whether administered to a Christian or a Jew, or, if not illegal, was only so because Parliament had the power to alter it at pleasure—the noble Lord had damaged the case as much as possible by an indis-

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creet and unseasonable avowal, and then had gone through the solemn mockery of inviting the hon. Member for the city of London to claim, in person or by counsel, to be heard against a decision which he nevertheless told the hon. Gentleman would be inevitably against him. With regard to the distinction which had been taken by the noble Lord, he (Mr. Anstey) would remind the House that the great cause of civil and religious liberty was involved in the adjudication of every judicial question, whether brought for decision before that House or any other tribunal; and on what firmer basis could the liberties of England be placed than on the immoveable foundations of law and justice? It was a question of civil and religious liberty, and it was likewise a judicial question; and if it were a party question also, let the noble Lord blame himself for having made it so. He had done his utmost to do it, and had withdrawn from that which would be a majority, but which was now doomed to be a minority, the support of those whose only rule to guide them was what was best for the interest of the great Whig party. It was, therefore, a party question, a judicial question, and a question of civil and religious liberty; his (Mr. Anstey's) mind was made up with respect to it, and his vote would follow, and he trusted hon. Members behind him, and some of those opposite, would take the same course as he did in giving their best support to the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose.
MR. W. P. WOODthought it would he improper in him to let the question go to a division without making some observations, more especially since the address which had been made to the House by the noble Lord at the head of the Government. He regretted very much that the noble Lord should have thought it necessary to pronounce any opinion at all upon the subject which, by some, was called the second question in the matter. The truth was, they could not tell whether they would come to that second question or not; they were at present on the first question, an important preliminary question, namely, whether the Member for the city of London was to take the oaths at the table of the House. The question was, whether they would adopt the resolution of the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford, or the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose. With reference to the Motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford Univer-
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sity, he (Mr. Wood) thought that the hon. Baronet had almost abandoned it himself. He had expressed his readiness to withdraw it; but he (Mr. Wood) did not think he should do so, for he thought the resolution ought to be negatived. It was impossible for any person to maintain their ground on that Motion. He had not heard a single observation from the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon in favour of it; and it was contrary to what every day took place, to say that persons could not take their seats without making a declaration that they were Christians. It was well known "the Moravians" and "Friends" don't do so, yet they can take their seats; and by the Act of Parliament any person who was either a Moravian, or member of the Society of Friends, may take his seat without making that declaration at all. With respect to the Amendment which had been proposed by the hon. Member for Montrose, they had heard a legal argument from the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon, which required attention, and he should wish to offer one or two observations respecting it. With reference first of all to the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose, he (Mr. Wood) ventured to assert, when he first addressed the House on the subject on Friday, that no lawyer would be found in that House who could hesitate for a moment to say that it was the common right of every individual to be sworn in that manner that he should think most binding on his conscience. He was happy to find that that proposition had not been controverted as a general proposition, and he was sure no person could controvert it; but an attempt had been made to distinguish this case from others, and take it out of the general proposition, by saying that they should exclude all oaths that were of the character of an oath of office; and secondly, that there was some peculiar limitation in the statute relating to Members taking seats in Parliament that should preclude this case from the application of the general rule. With respect to its being limited to judicial oaths, and not applicable to oaths of office, he did not hear the hon. and learned Gentleman cite an authority in support of that proposition. No such authority could be cited, and there was abundance of authority in jurisprudence, not confined to their own country, the other way. He might also say, in reference to oaths, that at one time in this country the general assumption was, that every person was a Christian; and thence alone

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grew up the mode of administering oaths on the holy gospels, and it became the general practice of' administering oaths. But the moment the question arose whether or not that particular mode of administering the oath would be binding on the consciences of the persons to be bound by it, that instant, with the keen common sense which distinguished the laws of their country, our Judges determined, in conformity with the proceedings of other countries, that the question which they had to ask m administering an oath is, have you got the religious sanction, and bound the party by a declaration that he makes in the presence of a God whom he believes to be an avenger of falsehood. That was laid down in the Roman Digest; and in the case of "Omychund v. Barker," a passage was cited from it, to the effect, that everybody might swear by his own superstition, as the Emperor was pleased to call it, and no question was to be asked as to what the man had sworn by. That was the law of the Roman empire. The Church was equally liberal; in the 154th Epistle of St. Augustine there were these words:—
"If you will not admit the oath of an idolater"—for that was the question referred to him—"there is no adequate method of making a covenant with him, or of binding him to keep his word, or of preserving the public peace. It is not forbidden by any law of God to employ for a good purpose the oath of that man whose fault consists in swearing by false gods, but who keeps the faith to which he is pledged."
The only thing then, according to the testimony of St. Augustine, into which inquiry was to be made, was not as to what gods the man had sworn by, but whether he believed that the deity by whom he had sworn was an avenger of falsehood, lie had also looked into the laws of Alphonso, and found in an old copy, printed in 1491, dedicated to Ferdinand and Isabella—and no person could believe that they were favourable either to Jews or to Moors—he found, in "Law 20," the forms given of the mode of swearing both Moors and Jews; and the general principle adopted in these forms was, that in swearing a man they were to swear him by that which was binding on his conscience, and they were not so absurd as to swear him by that which he did not believe. Leaving, however, the laws of Alphonso, he would come to the state of the law on the subject in Franco. In June, 1755, a question of considerable importance was raised before the Parliament of Paris, which was, whether a man who
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was a Jew should be allowed to be sworn in a different manner than that prescribed by law—whether, in fact, he should be sworn according to his own mode. Considerable discussion took place on the question, and the prisoner, getting weary of it, put on his hat, took the Bible out of his pocket, held it in his left hand, placed his right hand upon it, and said, "Je le jure;" upon which the President decided that he had taken the oath in that form. A question also arose, under the Code Napoleon, which expressly enjoined the mode in which every man should be sworn, which was that he should hold up his arm and swear, using the words Je le jure. The question which arose was whether a Jew, notwithstanding the directions contained in the code, should be allowed to swear in his own accustomed form, and it was decided that he could. After the publication of the "Code," another Act was passed by the French Legislature, which provided that Jews, in the matter of oaths, should be placed upon the same footing as all other foreigners, and upon this law two questions arose, which came before the Court of Cassation. The first was, whether a Jew could, after he had been placed upon the same footing with all other foreigners, still be "allowed" to be sworn according to his old mode, and it was decided in the affirmative. The second question which arose was, whether, if after he had been placed upon the same footing, and had expressed his willingness to be sworn according to the established rule, he could be "forced" to take the oath according to the old form, and it was decided, that since he had declared he would stand upon the same footing, and as the general rule bound him, lie should be allowed to be sworn in the new form. What had been done in our country? He would refer to the great case of Omychund v. Barker, and would cite one passage from the argument of the Solicitor General of that day, who stated, with respect to alterations in the form of oaths—
"All occasions do not arise at once; now a particular species of Indians appears; hereafter another species of Indians may arise; a statute very seldom can take in all cases, therefore the common law, that works itself pure by rules drawn from the fountain of justice, is for this reason superior to an Art of Parliament."
This was a matter of some consequence, as affecting the second branch of the question. The Lord Chief Baron also went at some length into the question, in giving his opinion he said—

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"The law of England is not confined to particular cases, but is much more governed by reason than by any one case whatever. The true rule is laid down by Lord Vaughan, fol. 37, 38. 'Where the law,' saith he, 'is known and clear, though it be unequitable and inconvenient, the Judges must determine as the law is, without regarding the unequitableness or inconvenieney. Those defects, if they happen in the law, can only be remedied by Parliament; but where the law is doubtful, and not clear, the Judges ought to interpret the law to be, as is most consonant to equity, and least inconvenient."
The step which Lord Chancellor Hardwicke took in this case was a very strong one. The commission, as the House was probably aware, had always run tactis sacro-sanctis Dei evangeliis, and "on the corporal oath," but these words were all ordered to be struck out of the commission. But his hon. and learned Friend had stated that this form of oath did not apply to oaths of office. He had, however, completely answered his own argument, for, in the course of his speech, he referred to the Declaratory Act of the 1st and 2nd Victoria, c. 105, and stated that being only a Declaratory Act, it could not alter any existing Act, but was merely declaratory of its meaning. He (Mr. Wood) fully admitted that to be the case with respect to the 1st and 2nd Victoria, c. 105. But what did that Act declare? It declared—
"That in all cases in which an oath may lawfully be and shall have been administered to any person, either as a juryman or a witness, or a deponent in any proceeding, civil or criminal, in any court of law or equity in the United Kingdom, or on appointment to any office or employment, or any occasion whatever, such person is bound by the oath administered, provided the same shall have been administered in such form and with such ceremonies as such persons may declare to be binding."
There was, therefore, an end to the line of distinction drawn by the hon. and learned Member, as between judicial oaths and oaths of office, for this Act which was a declaratory one, declared it to be the law that persons taking the oath of office or of employment were bound by such oath as they might themselves declare to be binding. The remaining part of the hon. and learned Member's argument was founded upon this state of things; he said that the oath of supremacy set forth in 1st Elizabeth, c. 1, was, by the 5th Elizabeth, c. 1, directed to be taken by the Members of the House of Commons upon the Holy Evangelists; and by the 7th of James I., the oath was also directed to be taken by Members of Parliament in the same mode, and that, therefore, it was impossible for
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a Jew to take the oaths so presented. But the requirement that the oath should be taken upon the Holy Evangelists applied merely to the form, and stated nothing whatever about the substance of the oath. The necessity, however, for taking this oath did not stand upon that Act, but upon 30th Car. II., s. 2, which referred to the oaths of allegiance and of supremacy, which were directed to be taken before the High Steward upon the Holy Gospels, by the 5th Eliz., cap. 1. The 30th Car. II., s. 2, enacted that no Member of the House of Commons should be allowed to take his seat "until from time to time respectively, and in manner following"—nothing whatever was said about the Holy Gospels—"he shall first take the several oaths of allegiance and supremacy, and make, subscribe, and audibly repeat this declaration following," which was the form of the declaration against Transubstantiation. But what was "the manner following," in which the oaths were to be taken?—
"Which said oaths and declarations shall be in this and every succeeding Parliament solemnly and publicly made and subscribed, betwixt the hours of nine in the morning, and four in the afternoon, by every such Peer and Member of the House of Peers at the table in the middle of the said House before he takes his place in the said House of Peers, and whilst a full House of Peers is there, with their Speaker, in his place, and by every such Member of the House of Commons at the table in the middle of the House, and whilst a full House of Commons is there duly sitting, with their Speaker in his chair, and that the same be done in either House in such like order or method as each House is called over by respectively."
His hon. and learned Friend said, that Members of Parliament still took their oaths upon the Act of Charles II. That was quite true, but they did not take them upon the statutes of either 5th Elizabeth or 7th of James I. For, although the 1st of William and Mary, sess. 1, cap. 1, might have left unrepealed the 5th Elizabeth, c. 1, and the 7th James I., c. 6; still, by the 1st of William and Mary, sec. 1, c. 8, an Act for abrogating the oaths of supremacy and allegiance, and appointing other oaths, it was enacted that from henceforth no person should be obliged to take the oaths prescribed by the 5th Elizabeth, c. 1, and the 3rd James I., c. 4, and that the said oaths themselves should be, and were, thereby repealed, utterly abrogated, and made void. The oaths which were required to be taken before the High Steward were those prescribed by the 5th Elizabeth, c. 1, and that was the only oath required to be taken before the High Stew-

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ard; and by the 1st of William and Mary, sess. 1, c. 8, that oath was altogether given up. The only remaining oath then in existence was that contained in the 1st of William and Mary, sess. 1, c. 1, which substituted different oaths, and directed them to be taken in the manner directed by the Act of 30th Charles II., s. 2. They had nothing whatever to do with the oaths directed to be taken before the High Steward and upon the Holy Gospels; for the Act of 30th Charles II. only required that the oaths should be solemnly and publicly taken. This brought him to the consideration of the second question which had been discussed, and upon this point he would only say, that having at present but one question upon which to deliberate, he believed that that second question had been most improperly introduced into the discussion, and he regretted that the noble Lord at the head of the Government should have thought it right to express his opinion upon that question at the present stage of the discussion. The hon. and learned Member for Buteshire had made use of an expression to which he (Mr. Wood) felt bound to refer, to the effect that Baron de Rothschild and those hon. Members who were in favour of his claim to be allowed to take his seat, were taking an unfair advantage of the House by the course they were pursuing, and let fall something about special pleading. In his (Mr. Wood's) opinion, this was purely a legal question, which was, whether a party was to forfeit some very important civil rights upon his own part, or whether the electors of the city of London were to be deprived of his services in the discharge of a very important trust which they had confided in him, upon a merely technical quibble of the driest description, and deprived of those advantages, too, by an Act which declared that if he failed to conform to it, he should be treated as a Popish recusant, and be liable to all the consequent pains and penalties which could not therefore by possibility apply to Jews. He believed that he was justified in saying that Baron de Rothschild would have recourse to every legal means to establish his position, and it was but right that there should be a distinct understanding upon that point. He had been advised by those competent to advise him, that it was expedient that this question should first be determined, whether or not he should be allowed to take the oath in such a form as
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should be binding upon his own conscience. That might lead hereafter to some further question as to the distribution of the oaths; but at present they had not that question before them. There was one point to which he would allude before concluding, which was material, with a view of clearing Baron de Rothschild's character from any aspersions which might be cast upon it. He had heard a rumour to the effect that it had occurred to the hon. Member to present himself at the table, and to ask for the Roman Catholic oath, in order to evade the necessity of taking the oath upon "the true faith of a Christian." This was a most unfounded charge; for he was able most positively to state that such an idea had never once crossed the hon. Member's mind as that of approaching the table as a Roman Catholic. No person could use the Roman Catholic oath without either, in word, or by the act of asking for that oath, professing himself to be of the Roman Catholic faith. From all that he knew of Baron de Rothschild he had every reason to believe that a more honourable man did not sit in that House. He could not say that some person might not have suggested such a course to him; but the moment such suggestion was made, it was rejected, as being unworthy to be entertained even for a moment. He could inform the House that Baron de Rothschild would throughout these proceedings take, as he had before stated, every advantage which the law gave him in his position, but he would probably think it his duty not to take any legal advantage without giving the House full notice of his intention. In conclusion, he was surprised that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Abingdon should have revived the old exploded error with reference to the Jew Bill 13th of George II., which was a Bill simply to enable foreign Jews to naturalise themselves. It was clearly settled that English-born Jews were not aliens, and Lord Mansfield, when he was Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench, had settled the case for ever by buying a freehold house from a Jew. Under all the circumstances, he trusted that the House would agree with him to reject the Motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford, and to accept the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose.
MR. J. S. WORTLEYsaid, he did not mean to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman into the arguments and details he had just addressed to the House. He was

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anxious just to state in a few words the ground upon which he intended to vote against the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose. He did not rest much upon the argument that the hon. Member for London must of necessity take the two oaths to which he did not object upon the Holy Evangelists; nor was he disposed to maintain, that in the case of oaths of this description the general principle of Lord Hardwicke's Act was not applicable. If he were to form an opinion at the present moment, he believed it would be in favour of the more liberal view of the question, that the party swearing—whether it were a promissory oath or a judicial oath—should be sworn in the form most binding on his conscience. But the principle on which he should vote against the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose was, that according to all the practice of Parliament, according to all the information which they bad from the Journals of the House as to their mode of proceeding in taking oaths, it appeared that the oaths were taken jointly, and were contemplated jointly, and not considered one at a time. But even if they were permitted to put the oaths separately, it seemed to him that it would be manifestly absurd in this case to do so, because they had had the hon. Member at the table, and had asked him what he meant by requesting to be sworn on the Old instead of the New Testament, and he had told them that it was because he considered that the mode which would be most binding on his conscience. Well, what was the necessary inference from that? That he was not of the Christian persuasion. It was true that the hon. Member had not stated that he was a Jew; but if he refused to be sworn on the Gospels, he thought the necessary inference must be that he was not of the Christian persuasion. He repeated, then, that it was manifest trifling—the hon. and learned Member for Oxford was mistaken in supposing that he had used the words "unfair advantage;" but he repeated that the course which the friends of the hon. Member were now pursuing was trifling with the question, because he did feel that it was trifling with the question to ask the hon. Member to take two oaths with all the solemnity of kissing the Old Testament, when they knew that at the next step, upon the occurrence of the words "upon the true faith of a Christian," they must turn upon him and shut the door against his admission. These were the
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grounds upon which he should vote against the Motion.
Question put, and negatived; Words added; Main Question, as amended, put.
The House divided:—Ayes 113; Noes 59: Majority 54.

List of the AYES.

Adair, R. A. S.

Langston, J. H.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lennard, T. B.

Alcock, T.

Locke, J.

Anderson, A.

Lushington, C.

Anstey, T. C.

M'Cullagh, W. T.

Baines, rt. hon. M. T.

Martin, J.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T.

Matheson, A.

Barnard, E. G.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Bellew, R. M.

Melgund, Visct.

Berkeley, Adm.

Mines, R. M.

Berkeley, hon. H. F.

Moffatt, G.

Bernal, R.

Morison, Sir W.

Birch, Sir T. B.

Morris, D.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Bright, J.

Norreys, Lord

Brotherton, J.

O'Brien, Sir L.

Caulfeild, J. M.

O'Connor, F.

Clay, J.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Clements, hon. C. S.

Osborne, R.

Cobden, R.

Paget, Lord G.

Collins, W.

Palmerston, Visct.

Craig, Sir W. G.

Parker, J.

D'Eyncourt. rt. hn. C. T.

Pearson, C.

Disraeli, B.

Pechell, Sir G. B.

Dundas, Adm.

Pelham, hon. D. A.

Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D.

Pinney, W.

Dunne, Col.

Reynolds, J.

Ebrington, Visct.

Rich, H.

Ellice, rt. hon. E.

Roebuck, J. A.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Romilly, Col.

Forster, M.

Romilly, Sir J.

Fortescue, hon. J. W.

Russell, Lord J.

Fox, W. J.

Salwey, Col.

Freestun, Col.

Scully, F.

Grace, O. D. J.

Shelburne, Earl of

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Sidney, Ald.

Greene, J.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Grenfell, C. P.

Stanley, hon. W. O.

Grenfell, C. W.

Stuart, Lord J.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Tancred, H. W.

Grey, R. W.

Tenison, E. K.

Hall, Sir B.

Thompson, Col.

Harris, R.

Thornely, T.

Hatchell, J.

Tollemache, hon. F. J.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Trelawny, J. S.

Headlam, T. E.

Tufnell, rt. hon. H.

Herbert, H. A.

Vane, Lord H.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Wakley, T.

Heywood, J.

Wall, C. B.

Heyworth, L.

Wawn, J. T.

Hill, Lord M.

Westhead, J. P. B.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Wilson, J.

Hume, J.

Wilson, M.

Hutt, W.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Jocelyn, Visct.

Wyvill, M.

Keating, R.

TELLERS.

Kershaw, J.

Wood, W. P.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Smith, J. A.

List of the NOES.

Arbuthnott, hon. H.

Bagot, hon. W.

Ashley, Lord

Baldock, E. H.

453

Barrington, Visct.

Legh, G. C.

Blackall, S. W.

Lewisham, Visct.

Bowles, Adm.

Lockhart, A. E.

Broadley, H.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Brooke, Sir A. B.

Meux, Sir H.

Burghley, Lord

Neeld, J.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Neeld, J.

Carew, W. H. P.

Newdegate, C. N.

Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B.

Pennant, hon. Col.

Corry, rt. hon. H. L.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Cotton, hon. W. H. S.

Plumptre, J. P.

Davies, D. A. S.

Pugh, D.

Dodd, G.

Richards, R.

Duckworth, Sir J. T. B.

Simeon, J.

Egerton, W. T.

Stafford, A

Floyer, J.

Stanley, hon. E. H.

Gordon, Adm.

Tollemache, J.

Halsey, T. P.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Hamilton, G. A.

Trollope, Sir J.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Turner, G. J.

Henley, J. W.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Herries, rt. hon. J. C.

Vivian, J. E.

Hervey, Lord A.

Vyse, R. H. R. H.

Hildyard, T. B. T.

Walpole, S. H.

Hotham, Lord

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

Jermyn, Earl

Yorke, hon. E. T.

Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.

TELLERS.

Jones, Capt.

Spooner, R.

Lacy, H. C.

Beresford, W.

"Ordered—That Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothschild, one of the Members for the City of London, having presented himself at the Table of the House, and having previously to taking the Oaths requested to be sworn on the Old Testament (being the form which he has declared at the Table to be the most binding on his conscience), the Clerk be directed to swear him in on the Old Testament accordingly."

MERCANTILE MARINE (No. 2) BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
LORD J. RUSSELL LORD J. RUSSELL moved the Third Reading of this Bill.
Bill read 3°.
MR. ANDERSON, in the absence of the noble Lord the Member for Colchester, begged to move the insertion of the following Clause:—
"And be it Enacted, That so much of the General Seamen's Act, contained in Sections 50 and 51, 7 and 8 Vic. c. 112, as relates to seamen entering on board a ship of war, shall be repealed; and be it further Enacted, That if any seaman, after signing the agreement as hereinbefore required, or any apprentice, wilfully neglects or refuses to join his ship, or deserts, and then, or afterwards, is found or arrives at any place in which there is a Court of Justice capable of exercising jurisdiction under this Act, he shall, on due proof of the offence, and when practicable of a proper entry thereof in the official log-book, be summarily punished, by forfeiture of wages and imprisonment for a period not exceeding twelve weeks, with or without hard labour, at the discretion of the Court of Justice inflicting the same."
Brought up, and read 1°.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a Second Time."
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause withdrawn; Amendments made; Bill passed.

THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE—THE PRINCE OF WALES.
House in Committee.
Motion made, and Question put—
"That it is expedient to enable Her Majesty, to settle Marlborough House on His Royal Highness Albert Edward Prince of Wales, during the joint lives of Her Majesty and His Royal Highness, and to provide suitable coach houses and stables for the same, out of the Land Revenues of the Crown."
MR. TRELAWNYwished to know, before assenting to the resolution, why the noble Lord had refused to grant certain returns which had been moved for with respect to the Duchy of Cornwall?
LORD J. RUSSELLreplied, that there were certain returns which were by Act of Parliament directed to he laid before the House with respect to the Duchy of Cornwall, and these returns were always punctually given. With respect to the returns to which the hon. Gentleman referred, he had to say that the House, having in the early part of the Session negatived the hon. Gentleman's Motion that Parliament should assume a control over the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall, he did not think it necessary to grant the returns which had been asked for.
MR. HUMEsaid, it appeared to him that the resolution they were now asked to agree to was rather premature, considering that the Prince of Wales was only nine years of age. It would be recollected that a misunderstanding took place before with reference to Marlborough house, when it was voted to the late Queen Dowager. It was generally understood that Her Majesty was to keep it in order herself, but it turned out that the House had resolved that it should be kept in repair at the expense of the nation, and a hill for 44,000 l. was accordingly sent in for repairing it, and we had had to keep it in repair ever since. He did not see the use of appropriating Marlborough-house to the Prince of Wales so many years before it could be wanted by him.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, he had mentioned the proposal to several hon. Members before bringing it forward, and he

455
had never heard any objection to it till now. His hon. Friend did not seem to remember what he had formerly stated to the House. What he had stated was, that Marlborough-house being Crown property the Queen had been graciously pleased to direct that the pictures of the Vernon Gallery, which were then in the National Gallery, but in a place where it was complained they were not well seen, should be removed to Marlborough-house, in order that the public might have an opportunity of seeing them. He thought that that should not be forgotten in connexion with this question. It certainly did appear to Her Majesty's Government that now would be a proper time to advise Her Majesty to ask Parliament to make a settlement with respect to the Prince of Wales's residence in Marlborough-house. They did not think it desirable that Marlborough-house should be occupied with pictures, or with any other thing, until it could be said that it had been so long occupied in that way that it would be wrong, without having ever mentioned the matter before, to give it to the Prince of Wales. The Government thought it better, instead of leaving room for an objection of that kind, to advise Her Majesty to send a message to Parliament on the subject now. He repeated that he had not heard any objection to it before, and he could hardly have proposed it later in the Session than the present time.
MR. HUMEwould remind the noble Lord that he had objected to the removal of the Vernon pictures to Marlborough-house. What he wanted was that the Government should remove the Royal Academy in order to make room for that addition to the national collection. They would then have only one establishment instead of two. In order to take the sense of the Committee on the matter, he would move that the Chairman report progress.
MR. SPOONERthought that he had heard the word "stables" in the resolution. He wished to know why stables were to be provided?
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he could explain that point. A good many years ago, when the Act was passed for the erection of Carlton-terrace, it was intended that the terrace should be carried somewhat further than it actually was carried. There were stables in connexion with Carlton-house, and, as the House was aware, these were given up to the late
456
Queen Dowager, and, the Riding-house was devoted to the Records. There was now an opportunity of getting the Records removed, and he thought that this would be a good opportunity of getting rid of the stables also. He had asked what was the value of the property to the land revenues of the Crown; and he had been told that it was worth from 16,000 l. to 20,000 l. It had appeared to him, therefore, desirable that they should remove those stables, and replace the stables formerly belonging to Marlborough-house, but which were pulled down. He believed that the land revenues would be benefited about 800 l. a year by the extension of Carlton-terrace. He had thought this the best opportunity they could have of providing stables for Marlborough-house; for to whatever purpose it might be applied, the stables would be useful. He had thought the arrangement rather a good one on both accounts, and therefore he had proposed that it should be carried out.
MR. TRELAWNYsaid, perhaps it would be better if he moved for the returns he wished as an amendment. [An Hon. MEMBER: You can't.] The House ought to be exceedingly jealous with regard to the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall. It was well known that in two instances in the last century Parliament had been called on to pay the debts of the Prince of Wales, and they had once taken the property of the Duchy of Cornwall as a security for debts contracted by the Prince of Wales.
MR. HUMEsaid, that they ought not to add another building to the establishments of Royalty, while it was evident that they could not all be occupied. He wished to know why the Government were sustaining this grant; they should leave the question to a Parliament that was to come after them. He asked the noble Lord not to press the matter on the House now for a decision, as a more fitting time would yet come for its consideration.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, that he thought that the reason given by the noble Lord was not sufficient to justify the course which he had taken. The noble Lord stated that it was his wish to have an arrangement now made in order that the public some seven or eight years hence, when it may be proper to give a residence to the Prince of Wales, may not be annoyed when the removal of the pictures would be required for that purpose. If it should be a proper thing that Marlborough-

457
house should be given to the Prince of Wales at such a time, he did not think there would be any difficulty in doing it—because, as the matter had been thus fully discussed, it would be well known that the pictures were only there for a temporary purpose, until a more fitting place should be found for them. If that were the fact, he did not think that they should determine the mutter that night; and if the reason given by the noble Lord were the only one he had for calling upon them to settle the question that night, he felt that it was not sufficient to induce the House to agree with him. If he had any better reason he ought to state it.
COLONEL SIBTHORPproposed to take the sense of the House on the matter. He thought that this attempt at increased expenditure was in perfect accordance with the extravagant system pursued by Her Majesty's Government.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that hon. Gentlemen seemed to be under the apprehension that there was some great expense to be incurred. The House might remember that some years ago the house was settled on Prince Leopold, and then on the Queen Dowager, with stables. She held the house with the stables in Carlton-ride. It was now the intention to complete Carlton-terrace, only one-half of which was fully completed; and for the purpose of finishing the incomplete half which ran into Carlton-ride, it was necessary to remove those stables, and to replace them on a smaller scale where they originally stood. It was a most advantageous arrangement for the public, as the terrace would be continued, and their property would be made more use of. It was no unreasonable request to ask that the stables should be taken away for the purpose of putting them where they were before. No establishment was to be kept up in Marlborough-house, and no expense would be gone to more than that now incurred by keeping up the National Gallery. There would be no establishment kept up beyond that which would be necessary in any case whatever; for they must have a porter at the gate, and somebody in the house, who would prevent it from suffering any of that mischief to which every unoccupied house was liable. The only question now was, whether they were prepared to take away the stables which were now adjoining the houses in Carlton-ride, for the advantage of the public, and in exchange for them to
458
erect stables on a smaller scale in the original place.
MR. HUMEsaid, that the ground for making the demand was now changed. At first the damand was made for the endowment of Marlborough-house, but now it was for the extension of Carlton-terrace. He did not see any necessity for connecting the name of the Prince of Wales with Carlton-terrace. He hoped that the Government would postpone the consideration of the question till next year.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that he did not see any reason why this House should hamper itself with what may happen in nine years hence. How could anybody say that there may not be changes of opinion as to what may be desirable to be done with either Buckingham Palace or Marlborough-house during that period. On similar matters changes of opinion had taken place within the last twenty-five years. Suppose then that they now voted that this house should be given as a place of residence to the Prince of Wales, and that a change of opinion took place, they would be compelled to buy the Prince of Wales out of that which they had originally given him, and then they would have to assign to him another house. With regard to the stables, they were the property of the Crown, and did not require any Act of Parliament to give them over to the Crown. He thought it unreasonable to ask the House now to decide upon giving Marlborough-house as a residence to the Prince of Wales in nine years. As to the argument of the noble Lord, he did not think it worthy of the consideration of the House, and he would give his vote in favour of postponing the consideration of the question.
MR. TRELAWNYbelieved that if the returns he asked for were granted, it would appear that so large a revenue might be produced from the duchy of Cornwall that it would be unnecessary to ask the House to vote any establishment for the Prince of Wales.
MR. CAREWsaid, that as long as so much mystery was observed about the income of the duchy of Cornwall, it was the duty of hon. Members who represented the west, and of financial reformers generally, to resist any grants to the Duke of Cornwall.
MR. DUNCANwarned the noble Lord at the head of the Administration that he was doing a vast deal of injury to his Government by refusing to postpone this vote until next year.
LORD J. RUSSELLwas not proposing any grant to the Prince of Wales, nor was anything to be taken from the duchy of Cornwall. The proposition was, that when the Prince was 18 years of age he should have possession of Marlborough-house. Four months ago he stated that the Government would make this proposition. Whether the House settled this question to-night or next year was the same thing, hut he did not see any advantages in postponing the vote.
MR. HUMEthought that before the House voted residences and establishments to the Prince of Wales, they and the public had a right to know what amount of savings had arisen from the income of the duchy of Cornwall, where it was, how it was applied, and whether this property had been properly taken care of. The question of voting Marlborough-house would then be fit for consideration, but until that period it was wholly unnecessary for the present to hamper a future Parliament.
MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEY: If the noble Lord forced the House to divide, he would place hon. Members in a most unpleasant position. It certainly did appear to be wholly premature for the House to be discussing the question of a residence for a youth of nine years of age. The Prince might dislike the house as a residence when he became 18. The present vote, following as it did a recent vote of that House with regard to another member of the Royal Family, which was regarded as a piece of great extravagance out of doors, might lead the public to infer that the House had nothing to do with their surplus revenue but to find palaces for the Royal Family. He trusted that the noble Lord would consent to postpone the resolution.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 68; Noes 46: Majority 22.

List of the AYES.

Abdy, Sir T. N.

Cubitt, W.

Adair, R. A. S.

D'Eyncourt, rt. hn. C. T.

Baines, rt. hon. M. T.

Dundas, Adm.

Baring, rt. hn. Sir F. T.

Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D.

Barnard, E. G.

Ebrington, Visct.

Barrington, Visct,

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Bellew, R. M.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Berkeley, Adm.

Forster, M.

Blakemore, R.

Freestun, Col.

Bowles, Adm.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Bramston, T. W.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Brotherton, J.

Grey, R. W.

Chatterton, Col.

Hamilton, G. A.

Christy, S.

Hatchell, J.

Clay, J.

Hawes, B.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Hervey, Lord A.

Craig, Sir W. G.

Hobhouse, T. B.

460

Howard, Lord E.

Sheridan, R. B.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Smythe, hon. G.

Lewis, G. C.

Somers, J. P.

M'Cullagh, W. T.

Stanley, hon. W. O.

M'Gregor, J.

Tancred, H. W.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Tennent, R. J.

Moffatt, G.

Thompson, Col.

Owen, Sir J.

Thornely, T.

Palmerston, Visct.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Parker, J.

Tufnell, rt. hon. H.

Pelham, hon. D. A.

Turner, G. J.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Walpole, S. H.

Plumptre, J. P.

Wilson, J.

Pugh, D.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Rich, H.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

Romilly, Sir J.

Russell, Lord J.

TELLERS.

Seymour, Lord

Hayter, W. G.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L

Hill, Lord M.

List of the NOES.

Anderson, A.

Lacy, H. C.

Anstey, T. C.

Langston, J. H.

Arkwright, G.

Newdegate, C. N.

Baldock, E. H.

O'Brien, Sir L.

Bright, J.

O'Connor, F.

Carew, W. H. P.

Osborne, R.

Caulfeild, J. M.

Perfect, R.

Clive, H. B.

Richards, R.

Cobden, R.

Salwey, Col.

Dick, Q.

Sibthorp, Col.

Dickson, S.

Sidney, Ald.

Duncan, G.

Spooner, R.

Duncuft, J.

Stanford, J. F.

Evans, Sir De L.

Stuart, Lord D.

Fox, W. J.

Thompson, G.

Greene, J.

Wakley, T.

Grenfell, C. P.

Walmsley, Sir J.

Harris, R.

Wawn, J. T.

Henley, J. W.

Williams, J.

Henry, A.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Heywood, J.

Wood, W. P.

Heyworth, L.

Hotham, Lord

TELLERS.

Kershaw, J.

Trelawny, J. S.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Hume, J.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

BARON DE ROTHSCHILD.
On the Question that the House go into Committee of Supply,
MR. NEWDEGATEwished to ask a question of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the city of Oxford, He had to ask if he could inform the House whether the hon. Gentleman who had been elected for the city of London would present himself at the table of the House tomorrow for the purpose of taking the oaths? He also wished to know, seeing the hon. and learned Member had declared his intention of renewing the discussion, whether he would renew it when the hon. Gentleman who had been elected for the city of London claimed his seat?
MR. W. P. WOODhad to state, in answer to the first question put to him, that it was the intention of the hon. Member for

461
the city of London to present himself at the table of the House to take the oaths at twelve o'clock to-morrow. With reference to the second question, as to renewing the discussion, what he had stated was, that there was only one question before the House, and that he would reserve any observations he had to make upon any other question that might arise at a future stage of the business till that stage occurred.
MR. C. ANSTEYwould ask the hon. Member for North Warwickshire if he intended to renew the discussion?
MR. NEWDEGATEhad asked the question at the request of several Members who might have been inconvenienced by irregularity of discussion.
Subject dropped.

SUPPLY—EXHIBITION IN HYDE PARK.
Order for Committee read.
Account of Moneys in the Exchequer [presented 12th July], and Estimate of Monument to Sir Robert Peel [presented 25th July], referred.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."
COLONEL SIBTHORPbegged to move the Amendment of which he had given notice. He had no personal motive in moving as he did in this matter, but stood forward simply to speak for those who could not individually stand forward for themselves. He knew Well he would have the sense of the House against him on this matter. He could not command success, but he would nevertheless do his duty. It was a crying shame that a set of begging-boxes of all descriptions should have been sent about in behalf of this Exhibition, and that the highest in the land, the highest in rank, except the Sovereign, should be going about to extort money by threats, for the purpose of carrying on a measure so injurious to the interests of this country. No less than 1,500 foreigners had been disembarked in this country yesterday, many of whom, no doubt, had been surveying the ground where this Exhibition was to take place, and looking after matters with a view to their own interests.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct the Attorney General to give his sanction to the filing of the proposed Information for an Injunction to restrain the erection of any buildings in any part of Hyde Park for the intended Exhibition of 1851,' instead thereof."
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, he had already entered fully into the grounds on which he had thought it his duty to refuse his signature to the information which had been laid before him, and he did not propose to repeat that statement. The hon. and gallant Gentleman now proposed an address to the Queen to direct the Attorney General to give his sanction to the filing of an information for an injunction to restrain the erection of certain buildings in Hyde Park. Now, he was satisfied that no lawyer would say the Attorney General had not a discretionary power in this matter. But what was it the hon. Gentleman proposed? He asked the House to call upon the Crown to interfere with the first law officer of the Crown upon a question with which the House was not at all conversant, a proposal which he was satisfied would never receive their sanction.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a sum, not exceeding 731,206 l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of Half-Pay to Officers of the Navy and of the Royal Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1851."
MR. HUMEwished to know how far the recommendations of the Committee of 1848 on the Navy Estimates were to be carried out with regard to the admirals? The Committee stated that there were 150 admirals, and recommended that they should be reduced to 100; and everybody must see that so long as a dead weight like this lay on the department, relief from a heavy expenditure was impossible. He knew that a great many of the admirals were superannuated officers; but there was a far larger proportion than ought to be. What use had we for 150 admirals, when not more than 12 or 13 were employed? He would move that the vote for the admirals be reduced by 3,000 l.
Whereupon Motion made, and Question put—
"That a sum, not exceeding 728,206 l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of Half-Pay to Officers of the Navy and of the Royal Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1851."
SIR F. T. BARINGopposed the Amendment. It might be all very well for the hon. Member for Montrose to take away the amount he proposed to cut off if he

463
could scratch off the admirals with the same facility; but he could not suppose the hon. Gentleman was serious in proposing to take away the half-pay of any of those officers. He had referred to the recommendation of the Committee; but the hon. Gentleman must be aware that that recommendation was carried only by a majority of one, and that the chairman, who had made a different proposition, was not permitted to vote. The real point which they ought to have in view was to keep the service efficient; and, under all the circumstances, he thought it would be unwise to make any alteration in the present arrangement. He did not think promotion had been too rapid. Last year there were 14 promotions of captains to admirals, being one out of 38; 12 commanders were promoted to captaincies, being one out of 17; and 33 lieutenants were made captains, being one out of 70. It should be remembered that it was by means of the half-pay that the country kept the officers in the service. Not indeed for the sake of the half-pay itself, but they continued in the service in the hope of ultimately attaining those distinctions and rewards which they looked forward to and valued more than any actual amount of pay they might receive. The half-pay in the American navy was much higher than in the British Navy. Without going into details, he would admit that there might be reasons for reducing the higher class of officers as well as the lower; but he did not think it was advisable at the present moment to press any such arrangement. Since 1831 the decrease of the sum granted for half-pay had been no less than 150,000 l. That he considered to be a very important reduction.
CAPTAIN PELHAMlooked for the remedy of the evil complained of in increased economy in naval expenditure generally, which might be secured without at all imparing the efficiency of the service; and if such economy were really carried out, the country would, he believed, enable the Government to place the retired list on a proper footing. In the last two years a saving of 800,000 l. had been effected in connexion with the dockyards and the building of ships; and, if the contract system were revived, a still further saving might be effected. A great reduction might also be safely made in the number of persons employed in the fleet. He could not go with the hon. Member for the West Riding in his scheme for reducing the naval expenditure to the exact amount
464
at which it stood in 1835; but, nevertheless, he thought the number of seamen might be considerably reduced, and yet be sufficient for the service of the country. The number of men employed in 1822 was 21,000; the number asked for two years ago was 43,000, and even now it was proposed to have 39,000. If 5,000 men were struck off, there would still be 34,000, or 13,000 more than in 1822. It would not be easy to show that the country required double the number of men employed nearly thirty years ago, either on account of the extension of her commerce, or of the increased wants of her colonies. Since that period had been created the steam navy, which had made it much easier than formerly to reinforce the squadron in distant parts of the world. He did not expect to see a thorough reform in the Admiralty until the Board, with the exception at least of the First Lord, had ceased to be political, and had become permanent. He regretted that he could not vote with the hon. Member for Montrose.
MR. COBDENwas astonished at the conclusion at which the hon. Gentleman had arrived, after arguing in favour of a reduction of the expenditure in the Navy. Those who spoke out of doors sometimes accused the House of having an aristocratic leaning, and of almost confining themselves to proposals to cut down the weaker and humbler portions of the service. The justice of that accusation would now be tested. The report recommended that the number of admirals should be gradually reduced from 150 to 100, not by dismissing any admirals, not by depriving any existing admirals of their flag, rank, or pay, but by making only one promotion for three deaths until the desired diminution had been effected. The country would now have an opportunity of judging how far that House was disposed to treat fairly and equitably different classes of public servants. A considerable number of shipwrights had been dismissed, and meetings had been held to raise subscriptions for their relief. The Committee on the Estimates declared that only fourteen admirals could be employed. Would the House, then, reject the reasonable proposition before it? Then were told that even at present the officers of the Navy had but little chance of promotion. It must be recollected that they were living in a time of peace; and those who entered the Navy must take their chance, and not expect the same amount of promotion as during war. If they departed from, the principle of pro-

465
moting in proportion to the services required, it would follow that they must keep the people in the dockyards, and act on the principle of charity and benevolence to the service, instead of justice to the community at large. Holding that the promotion should have reference to the wants of the country, he should support the Amendment.
ADMIRAL DUNDASthought the hon. Gentleman had not put the question fairly before the House. In 1816 there were 220 admirals; there were now only 150, of which number 40 received only the pay of rearadmirals. In 1816 the number of captains was 867; it was now 511; and the number of lieutenants having been 3,999 at the former period, was now only 2,200. One half the naval officers had gone off the list since 1815, and still the hon. Gentleman: was not satisfied.
MR. HUMEsaid, that the gallant Admiral stated that in 1816 there was a certain number of admirals, and that they were reduced. Would he state how many had been promoted since that time? The fact is, they had had more promotions during the peace than ever obtained during the war. During the last year 14 admirals had been promoted. The Committee found that there were 156 admirals, and they recommended that they should be gradually reduced to 100, winch he thought was a great many. Take the list of 600 captains, and they would find that 250 of them had never served a day as captain; and 360 commanders out of 800 had never served a day as commander. The fact was they were making the service of the Navy a pension list. The United States had not one admiral, but their officers were better paid. He was perfectly ready to admit that the pay of our naval officers was small; but where there were six officers where only one was required, it did appear to him that they required a change. It was on that ground that he wanted the right hon. Gentleman to carry out the recommendation of the Committee, small as it was.
ADMIRAL BERKELEYsaid, that the hon. Member for the West Riding was never more mistaken in his life than when he said that the Navy was kept up for the aristocracy. These men were promised this promotion for their gallantry; it was a bargain made in the time of war. [The hon. and gallant Admiral then read an account of the services of Captain Collier, who was at the head of the list who en-
466
tered the service in 1802.] This case he said was not an isolated one, but he could follow it up by others who were lower down in the list, and who had obtained promotion not through being connected with the aristocracy but through their gallant services.
CAPTAIN PELHAMsaid, his argument was, that they required a fresh bargain, and that they ought to make a fresh bargain altogether, to put the active list on a proper footing, and, as to the rest, make a retired list of them.
MR. BRIGHTthought the hon. and gallant Member for Gloucester, who spoke last on behalf of the admirals, had put this question in a very unfair and unsound view before the House. He appeared to think there was some bargain with every man that entered the Navy that at a certain period of his life he should be made an admiral. Some hon. Gentlemen opposite appeared to agree with that. That was the strangest notion of public service that he ever heard in that House. The only contract that could be implied was that upon certain principles laid down, whether it were upon seniority or in any other way, that as the service required promotion for the efficient carrying on of that department, they should have such pre-eminence as the service could give them; but there was no contract that a proportion of officers should be raised to the rank of admiral. That would be to make the Navy subservient to the officers and not the officers to the Navy. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, because he belonged to the Navy, seemed to see nothing else; he forgot the country, and would starve the country, for the purpose of building up on a magnificent scale the profession to which he was attached. Now, there was one point in this question to which he would allude for the benefit of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer found at the end of the Session great inconvenience from the votes of hon. Members to take off certain taxes. Some wanted to take off the attorneys' certificate duty, others the window duty, and they were all of them wanting to repeal some tax or other; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought them unjust in moving for a reduction of taxation while he had no funds to spare. Well, but if they brought forward a proposition like this to put a stop to expenditure, that was the only mode of enabling them to reduce taxation. What

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were the facts? That they had 150 admirals, and that a Committee of that House had recommended that they should be reduced to 100. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Admiralty said it was only carried by a majority of one; but if he looked over the minority he would find that every one of them belonged either to the present Government or to former Governments, and they were put on the Committee on purpose to prevent reduction. He said that the vote of the Committee ought at once to receive the attention of the House, and be carried out. They had 14 admirals now in service, they had 36 in the hottest time of the war, and they were now paying 150. And when they sought to carry out the recommendation of the Committee, they were told forsooth that a contract was made with every man who entered the Navy that he would be made an admiral if he lived long enough. Then he said the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he found his colleagues supporting this unnecessary expenditure, ought not to grumble hereafter at hon. Members voting for the reduction of taxation, seeing that Government would not support economy.
COLONEL THOMPSONcould not help supporting the Member for Manchester in the opinion, that there could be no such thing as officers of any description having a right to claim promotion beyond what the necessity or convenience of the country should authorise. He was sure there was no such principle in the service to which he had belonged. The cornet made no claim to being a lieutenant till a lieutenancy was vacant, and the lieutenant did not expect to have a troop till there was a troop for him to have.
ADMIRAL BOWLESsupported the vote, and said it would be a great misfortune to the country if the system of promotion were stopped.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, his conviction was, that if all the recommendations of the Committee were carried out, it would lead to increased expense.
MR. CORRYsaid, that in 1845 it was stated in a minute by the Earl of Haddington, then First Lord of the Admiralty, that the list of flag officers was to be reduced to 150, and maintained at that number; and every officer who was called on to retire argued the question on the supposition that the faith of Parliament had been pledged to him that he was to succeed to the flag list if a vacancy oc-
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curred. If, therefore, they told him now that instead of every vacancy being filled up, it should be only one in three, he should consider that the faith of Parliament had been broken.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, the question which, substantially, the hon. Member for Montrose sought to raise was the question which had obtained much attention in the Committee on the Naval Estimates, wherein a proposition was made, for which he was responsible, for reducing the number of admirals from 150 to 100. So far as pecuniary considerations went, this reduction, perhaps, might not be very important; but, if there was to be a reduction of establishments, they must begin at some point; and, as he conceived, the point at which to begin was the highest rank in the service, if it could be shown that the extent of that highest rank was redundant, and the expense more than was necessary. The gradual reduction of officers on half-pay in the lower ranks of the service, had been carried into effect by only promoting one officer upon three vacancies. The real question was, whether it was not expedient to carry this rule, which pervaded all the other ranks, into the rank of admirals? At no time during the last war—the greatest naval war in which the country was ever engaged—was there a greater number of admirals employed than 32; and in this time of peace the number employed did not exceed 12. Now, though the admirals' list might be considered more or less a retirement, or reward for past services, yet it was still a question of degree, and the House must bear in mind, with reference to it, what the real wants of the service were in relation to the country. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not going to be misled by the pamphlet published the other day by a Bank Director, who wanted to make out that this country was the lightest taxed country in world; that taxation, direct or indirect, had not attained anything like its maximum; and that the people were, in fact, ready and competent for a great deal more taxation. He begged to demur altogether to those positions, and to express the conviction that no Government could be found which, in time of peace, could impose a greater weight of taxation, direct or indirect, than that now borne by the people of this country, the difficulty being, in fact, to maintain the burden already existing. The time had arrived when every practica-

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ble economy in every branch of the public service must be rigidly carried out. In the Navy as in the Army there were points at which economy must commence; and it was his opinion that it was not in the lower ranks of either profession that this commencement must be made, he would be the last man in the House to desire to carry this principle into effect harshly or suddenly, to the injury of men who had already just claims for promotion: but gradually, he would say, you must introduce greater economy into the higher ranks of both services. In times of peace, 150 admirals and 270 generals were clearly more than the service of the country required. What was the proposition of the Committee? That you should gradually reduce the number of admirals from 150 to 100, in this way—that whereas on the death of three captains you only promoted one; of three commanders, only one: so with admirals, till the number was reduced to 100, upon three deaths you should only make one promotion. It might be said that, considering the age of the post captains at the top of the list, this rule of promotion would work so slowly that there would be, in a short time, no admirals sufficiently young and active to fulfil the important duties of naval command. He admitted it; and it was with reference to this precise point that the Committee made the further proposition, that, to give greater vigour and activity to the higher ranks of the service, one out of every three promotions to the rank of admiral should go, not by seniority, but, on the responsibility of the Admiralty, by distinguished merit, without reference to mere seniority. These were the propositions which he had submitted to the Committee, which he had much reflected upon since, and which he was now fully prepared to support, both by his speech and by his vote. He was decidedly of opinion that, with reference to the efficiency of the service, these measures might be safely adopted. The case of the Army stood on better grounds in this respect; though the number of generals was 270, yet such large reductions had been made, that while in the Navy the non effective charge now, as compared with 1846, had actually increased 88,000 l., the non-effective charge of the Army had been reduced by 91,100 l. for the same period. Since the close of the war, the dead weight of the Navy had remained stationary, whereas that of the Army had materially diminished. He had understood that the state
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of the admiral's list was so little satisfactory, that when, lately, the admiral's command of the Eastern and China Seas was vacant, there was very great difficulty in filling it up; that three or four rear-admirals in succession refused it; that the officer who had accepted the command was upwards of 70; and that, moreover, in order to induce him to go out, arrangements of a very objectionable nature were made in the way of appointments of relations to posts under him. [Sir F. BARING: No!] Well, at all events, was not the post refused by three or four rear-admirals, and was not the officer who accepted it more than seventy years old? If such was the condition of the admirals' list in time of peace, what would be the state of things, if, unhappily, we should become involved in war?
SIR F. T. BARINGwished that his right hon. Friend would show, rather by figures than by general phrases, what he meant by enforcing economy. He did not regard this as a question of economy at all. The entire saving, even if you could reduce the number of admirals from 150 to 100, would scarcely exceed 10,000 l.; and it was no question with him whether this would be a real saving to the country, while it would be a great injustice to a noble service. Even if the Government were to adopt the principle of appointing admirals on the ground of merit alone, those officers would grow old, and they did not require merit only in their admirals, but also youth and activity. If, however, the Government were to pass over the senior officers, and select as admirals officers low in the list and young in the service, they might disregard merit to obtain the services of youth; and he feared such a course would occasion great dissatisfaction and discontent. That was not a new suggestion, for on one occasion the power of the Crown had been exercised, and with great impartiality, in favour of a young officer; but that step created great dissatisfaction, and if his recollection was correct, the House interfered so harshly that the practice was abandoned. He begged to say, in reply to the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, that no arrangement of the nature he had alluded to had been made with the gallant admiral in command on the East India station. The right hon. Baronet had also asked whether it was true that that command had been offered to two or three officers before it was accepted by the gallant admiral by whom it was now held? It was perfectly true that

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the appointment had been declined by two admirals, on the ground that their health would not enable them to undertake the duties; and he (Sir F. Baring) thought those gallant officers had acted most conscientiously in declining the offer on that ground. He was far from saying that if the present arrangement did not work well, the whole subject ought not to be considered; but he did not think it would be advisable to consider the case of the admirals apart from that of the service generally.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, that the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty, called upon him to state the precise amount of saving he proposed to effect by reducing the list of admirals from 150 to 100. He could only say that if the reduction of one-third in the number of admirals would effect no material saving in the half-pay of admirals, it was a case of despair. The right hon. Baronet appeared to think that it would not be possible to add any fresh youth, vigour, and activity to the list by means of selection. If then they could neither reduce the expense, nor render this class of officers more efficient by infusing health and vigour into it, he (Sir J. Graham) thought the case of the admirals was desperate.
MR. HENLEYsaid, this was a very important question, for it appeared that while the amount expended in pay and wages for the effective force of the Navy was 1,322,000 l., the cost of the non-effective service was 1,221,000 l. He was satisfied this was a state of things the country would not allow to be continued. For thirty-five years, since the Peace, the system had gone on without alteration, and they were now paying the same number of officers for doing nothing, that they were maintaining when they had a large naval force afloat. He was glad this question had been raised, for he considered the non-effective force of the Navy ought to be kept within more reasonable bounds, and he would cordially support the Amendment.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERwished to say a few words on this subject, as it was one with regard to which he had had some Admiralty experience. He must say he deprecated more than anything the interference of the House of Commons in these matters. ["Oh, oh!"] He did not mean as to what was to be done, but as to how it was to be done. When he became Secretary to the Admiralty a system of reduction was in active operation. It was going on rapidly, and
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what stopped it? What was the cause of that increase of dead weight in the Navy, of which hon. Gentlemen now complained? It was the interference of the House of Commons. [A cry of "No!"] Yes, it was the interference of the House with the reductions then in progress. Several Motions, as the hon. Member for Montrose might remember, were made and carried with a view to accelerate the promotions, which the House thought were not rapid enough; and the consequence was a great addition to the retired list. It must not be said, then, that the Government had been anxious to continue the present system. He conscientiously believed that the Government was far better able than the House of Commons to form a judgment as to the mode in which reductions might be effected.
CAPTAIN HARRISsaid, that officers, whether admirals, captains, or lieutenants, were not made in a day, and it was necessary to keep up the half-pay system that they might have efficient men upon the list who would be available in case of emergency. He did not concur in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the Executive Government could conduct changes in these matters most advantageously without the interference of that House, for the House of Commons was bound to take care that there was no extravagant outlay of the public money.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 72; Noes 128: Majority 56.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
CAPTAIN BOLDEROwould remind the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty that this vote included surgeons and assistant surgeons, with respect to whom there was a recent vote of the House; he believed some regulation was to be made for their benefit.
SIR F. T. BARINGhad already explained to the hon. and gallant Member the course intended to be pursued; a memorandum had been drawn up, and the arrangement would be carried into effect.
Vote agreed to; as were also the following votes:—
(2.) 490,345 l. Military Pensions and Allowances.
(3.) 167,086 l. Civil Pensions and Allowances.
(4.) 135,700 l. Freight, &c., on account of the Army and Ordnance Department.
(5.) 21,131 l. Arctic Expedition.
(6.) 8,480 l. for Extra Provisions for Arctic Expedition.
(7.) 211,159 l. 3s. 7d. Excess of Naval Expenditure.
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYrose to call attention to a sum of 29,534 l. expended upon iron steamers. They did not derive that sum from any surplus, nor had they expended it with the consent of the Treasury Further, it was in clear violation of the Appropriation Act. At the same time he was bound to admit that the Board of Audit had exercised all fitting vigilance upon the occasion. Upon these grounds he should propose that the proposed grant be reduced by the sum of 29,534 l.
SIR F. T. BARINGexplained the circumstances under which the payment on account of the iron steamers was made. The year before last money was taken to pay for these iron steamers. The estimates of the expenditure for the next year were framed in the month of October, and presented in 1849. But he found that the contracts, which were expected to terminate before the termination of the financial year, did not fall within the financial year, and, therefore, the payments ran actually a few weeks beyond the financial year. He made a payment on account, though not legally compellable; and he had stated the excess, on the principle that Parliament ought to know how it had occurred.
MR. HENLEYthought the matter was not yet clearly before the House. The right hon. Baronet seemed to say he had committed the fault of having an excess, but had shown it to Parliament, arid that he might have carried it to another year, without their knowing anything of it. There was a third alternative—that of not spending in excess at all. The statement was not satisfactory as to how the excess arose.
SIR F. T. BARINGhad stated, in opening the estimates, the ground of that excess, which occurred before he came into office. A good deal of it arose from the number of men being carried beyond the vote, and from the pay of the men being-taken on a wrong calculation.
MR. HUMEdid not believe they would get rid of these excesses until they came to a resolution that the Lords of the Admiralty should pay the excess themselves. He was quite ready to make the right hon. Baronet pay it himself.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, that the excess was not incurred under the administration of the First Lord of the Admiralty, and no one more agreed with the position laid
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down by the hon. Member for Montrose than the First Lord himself, that these excesses were to be carefully avoided. It might be confidently anticipated that under his administration, though it was difficult to know how excesses could always he avoided. Parliament would to the utmost see an end put to these grants. There was one principle to which the right hon. Baronet had not adverted, that when any such unexpected expenditure was incurred, it was most desirable to have it brought under the cognisance of the Treasury.
MR. REYNOLDScomplained that, while 700,000 gallons of rum were consumed in the Royal Navy, home-made spirits were not advertised to be taken under the contracts, though there was no Parliamentary resolution giving a preference to rum.
MR. FRENCHsaid, that at the Admiralty the interests of Ireland were not represented. There was no Irish Lord of the Admiralty. Such was not the case in the late Administration, which was supposed to be more adverse to the interests of Ireland. The right hon. Member for Tyrone was then Secretary for the Admiralty.
COLONEL SIBTHORPwould vote with the two hon. Gentlemen who had just spoken in favour of consuming Irish whisky in the Royal Navy rather than rum; hut he could not understand how, with their views, they supported Her Majesty's Ministers, of whom no man entertained a worse opinion in their public capacity than he did. He advised the hon. Gentlemen to leave the bad company in which they were placed. They should remember that evil communications corrupted good manners; and, if they remained longer amongst their present associates, they would become inoculated with their virus.
MR. REYNOLDSsaid, that although he disapproved of many of the acts of the Government, he did not believe that another Administration would pursue a different policy. Only a choice of evils was before him, and he took the least. If, however, the hon. and gallant Colonel would form an Administration which would take Ireland under its protection, it should receive his support.
SIR F. BARINGsaid, in reference to what had fallen from the right hon. Member for Ripon, communications should be made to the Treasury with respect to every case of excess.
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYsaid, that in consequence of the right hon. Baronet's explanation, he would withdraw his Amendment.
Vote agreed to.
(8.) 764,236 l. Post Office Packet Service.
MR. SCOTT MR. SCOTT moved to reduce the vote by 50,000 l, charged for the conveyance of the India mails by the East India Company's vessels.
SIR F. T. BARINGreminded the hon. Member that the payment must be made as long as the contract with the Company subsisted.
LORD NAASthought, that after the contradictory statements they had heard from the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hon. Member for Honiton, it was understood the vote for the Indian mail service would be postponed till the House had had an opportunity of judging what was the real state of the case by the production of the correspondence between the Government and the East India Company.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the production of the correspondence could have no effect on a contract which had been already completed. Whatever opinion the House might have as to any future arrangement, it was evident that what had been entered into by the Government must be carried out.
MR. HUMEsuggested, that in future an account should be laid before Parliament of the several contracts, of the number of ships, of the distances, and of the expense, on one side; and of the profits, by passengers and from other sources, on the other. No vote required a closer scrutiny, and the opinion of competent persons out of doors was, that many of our mail contracts were extremely extravagant. The House ought to have some intimation when new contracts were to be made.
MR. SCOTTquite agreed with the hon. Member for Montrose that the votes for the mail service required very close observation. It was rumoured that a certain company, who were disappointed in getting the contract for the mails to the Brazils, were likely to obtain the contract for the Cape mails, by way of making up for their disappointment. The vote ought not to be passed without some explanation, though no hon. Member connected with Government had yet condescended to give any.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, that the state-
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ments to which the hon. Member for Berwickshire referred, were, like many others brought against the Admiralty, quite without foundation. There was no truth in them; and it could not be expected that the time of the House was to be taken up in noticing every story that might be rumoured abroad. The hon. Member for Montrose could have every information he desired as to the mail contracts.
SIR J. GRAHAMinquired what arrangements had been made for the conveyance of the mails between Holyhead and Dublin? It had been strongly recommended by the Committee that the same company who had carried the mails between Liverpool and Dublin should become the lessees of the establishment, which cost the country a very considerable sum; and he observed that the expenses had increased since 1849.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, that arrangements had been made for carrying the mails by contract, which would be carried into effect as soon as possible. There were charges against the Admiralty on this point also, but they referred not to the Admiralty having done badly to the public, but to their having taken the lowest contract, which was said to be so low that it could not be worked. The tenders for the mail contracts to the Cape would be returnable on the 13th of August; and, the service would be taken by screw steamers.
In reply to Mr. T. EGERTON,
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that Government intended to make the inner harbour at Holyhead at the public expense. It would be, he considered, rather hard, under all the circumstances, to call on the railway company to contribute 200,000 l., as originally agreed upon; but they would be deprived of any exclusive advantages which were contingent on that contribution.
LORD J. MANNERSsaid, he regretted to be obliged by the conduct of Her Majesty's Government to move that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. It was necessary for him to call the attention of the House to the course pursued by hon. Gentlemen opposite in a matter personal to himself. About three o'clock in the day he had crossed over to the Ministerial benches and asked the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade when he would take the third reading of the Mercantile Marine Bill? The right hon. Gentleman informed him, at Twelve o'clock to-morrow; when the right

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hon. Baronet the Secretary of State, who was sitting beside him, said, "You must mistake—the Amendments on the Irish Franchise Bill are to come on at Twelve o'clock to-morrow, to which their consideration is adjourned—you mean Twelve o'clock to-night." To which the President of the Board of Trade replied. "Yes, I mean Twelve o'clock to-night; and I hope you (Lord J. Manners) will have no objection to the third reading of the Mercantile Marine Bill being moved after all the other orders." He replied, "Certainly not; and that, having an amendment to move, he would offer no obstruction to the third reading, whenever it came on." Both the right hon. Gentlemen seemed perfectly satisfied with that arrangement, and expressed themselves more or less pleased at the cooperation he gave to them in proceeding with the Bill. With that understanding-he left the House; and, on his return, he found the third reading of the Mercantile Marine Bill had actually been moved—whether by either of the right hon. Gentlemen he did not know—at half-past Seven o'clock that evening, and had been carried. All he knew was, the engagement entered into by those right hon. Gentlemen, as Members of Government, had not been kept.—[Sir G. GREY: There was not the smallest approach to an engagement.] The right hon. Baronet might say so; but if that sort of quibbling was allowed, no engagement would be entered upon between hon. Members and the Government. He would ask the right hon. President of the Board of Trade whether, in all the transactions relating to the Bill, he had not shown the greatest anxiety to consult his convenience, and whether he had exhibited the least wish to offer to it a factious opposition? He had then a right to complain, and he did complain, of that sort of conduct; and all those arrangements which tended so much to the mutual convenience of the Members and of the Government must in future he disregarded; and it would be the duty of hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House to exert every sort of opposition to Government, and to disregard all statements of Ministers except those made publicly in their places. Had it not been for the declaration of the right hon. Gentleman, he (Lord J. Manners) would have been in his place ready to propose the Amendment which stood in his name on the paper; and he appealed to the House whether the right hon. Gentleman had acted on this oc-
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casion in the way in which he had acted hitherto, or if his conduct had been what he (Lord J. Manners) had a right to expect.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he should him very sorry indeed if any conduct on his part could have rendered him justly liable to the imputation of having acted in any way but with the most scrupulous fidelity in any engagements he might have made with any hon. Member. He felt very deeply the important character of those engagements, and how much the convenience of the House and the despatch of business depended on their being adhered to with the most inviolable fidelity. But be hoped, before he sat down, to remove from the mind of the noble Lord the false impression under which he seemed to labour. It was quite true both as to the noble Lord, and as to other Members, that he (Mr. Labouchere) had stated, if the discussion which had occupied the greater part of the day should be brought to a close at any time before twelve o'clock at night, that he should move the third reading of the Mercantile Marine Bill, for he felt it to be of great importance that that measure should be sent up to the other House of Parliament with as little delay as possible; but he never for a single moment contemplated anything so very extraordinary as letting the most convenient opportunity pass by and keeping back that or any other measure till twelve o'clock. Every one knew that the discussion respecting the Baron de Rothschild had ended much sooner than was expected; and if the noble Lord had been taken by surprise, so also was he (Mr. Labouchere), for he was himself not in the House when the Bill was read a third time, his noble Friend at the head of the Government being the Member who then took charge of it, and by whom it was successfully passed through its last stage, at which time the Amendment that the noble Lord had intended to propose was moved by another Member. Having made this short statement, he trusted the House would do him the justice to believe that he never intended to take the noble Lord by surprise. He hoped during the ten years that he had bad a seat in that House he never pursued any course which could justify an imputation of any unfairness, he was sorry that any misapprehension should have occurred; but he begged the House to observe that not only the noble Lord, but the hon. Member for Liverpool, was also absent when the Bill was read a

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third time. There could not he a greater mistake than to suppose that he had ever made any such arrangement as the noble Lord had supposed him to make, for it would be so manifestly against the course of order in that House, that the Speaker would have interfered to prevent its being carried into effect. He should conclude by repeating an expression of regret that any misapprehension had arisen, and by hoping that the House would acquit him of intending to take any one by surprise.
LORD J. MANNERSsaid, that no doubt the right hon. Gentleman did not mean to take him by surprise, but he must be permitted to say that the right hon. Gentleman had distinctly told him that he intended to take the Mercantile Marine Bill at twelve o'clock, after the other Orders of the Day were disposed of; and he distinctly remembered the Home Secretary observing that they could not proceed with the Bill at twelve o'clock to-morrow. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade might have meant that he would proceed with the measure before twelve, but he said that he should not do so till twelve—he certainly fell into some mistake, and deceived not only himself but him (Lord J. Manners).
SIR G. GREYsaid, that as he had been appealed to, he felt it due to himself to say, that he had entered into no engagement whatever, but contented himself with observing that twelve o'clock to-morrow was a time already occupied. Beyond that he had not opened his lips, but he was bound now to state, that he certainly understood his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to say, that after the debate which then occupied the attention of the House was concluded, he should move the third reading of the Mercantile Marine Bill; but certainly no one expected that that debate would have been so soon over.
ADMIRAL BOWLESsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade told him, not that he would wait till twelve o'clock, but that he would proceed with the Mercantile Marine Bill, even if no opportunity of moving it occurred before twelve o'clock; that, if necessary, he should go on with it as late as twelve o'clock.
LORD J. MANNERSsaid, that if the right hon. Gentleman had told that to him, he should not have been taken by surprise, but he never said anything of the sort.
MR. ANDERSONrose to say, that he had spoken to the right hon. President of
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the Board of Trade in the lobby on the subject, when his reply to an inquiry was, that it would probably be late that night, and as he intended to second the clause of the noble Lord, he took the liberty of moving it in his absence.
Vote agreed to; as were the following:—
(9.) 453,891 l. Commissariat Department.
(10.) 45,791 l. Half-pay, Pensions, &c.
(11.) 5,250 l. Monument to Sir Robert Peel.
LORD J. MANNERSthought nothing could be more becoming a great nation than to place memorials of individuals who had distinguished themselves by the good done to their country in a suitable building. An opinion, however, prevailed, and was extending itself, that Westminster Abbey was not a proper place for containing such memorials. No one would for a moment think of objecting to the monument to the memory of Sir Robert Peel being erected in the Abbey; but he gave notice that, if a similar proposition should be made hereafter, he should oppose it.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that there was no building more suitable than Westminster Abbey for containing public monuments.
Vote agreed to; as was one of
(12.) 50,000 l. for Civil Contingencies.
House resumed.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock.

PUBLIC LIBRARIES AND MUSEUMS BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
MR. BROTHERTON MR. BROTHERTON moved the Third Reading of the Public Libraries and Museums Bill.
COLONEL SIBTHORPwas surprised that such a Motion should have come from the hon. Member for Salford, who was always ready to prevent business after twelve o'clock, when it came from a different side of the House from his own. He objected altogether to the present Bill, and would therefore move that it be read a third time that day three months.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
LORD J. MANNERSwished the House to understand that this Bill would repeal all the Statutes of Mortmain.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the Bill would only repeal the Statutes of Mortmain in so far as libraries and museums were concerned.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question?"
The House divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 15: Majority 49.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read 3°.
COLONEL CHATTERTONsaid: Sir, perhaps there never was a Bill introduced into this House under such unfortunate auspices. Though professedly for the amusement and instruction of the working classes of the people, its real object now turns out to be actual, permanent, and forced taxation. Sir, the second reading of this Bill was not a triumphant one. As regards Ireland, I object to the principle of this Bill, as tending to impose a new tax upon an already pauperised people. I object to it, as it would not be of the slightest benefit in the city I have the honour to represent; for it cannot be imagined that a peasant, fatigued after his daily toil, could be so impressed with the love of literature, or the study of the antique, as to set off, even under the influence of a bright summer evening, to walk six or seven miles to improve his mind, and then walk back to ponder over and digest what he had seen and heard. Sir, I think this proposition monstrous and ill-timed; and although no person can be more anxious than I am for every fair opportunity being given to the working classes to gain useful knowledge, still I never can consent to this method of procuring it, by taxing the many for the supposed advantage of the few. I beg to move that the provisions of this Bill do not pass into law in Ireland.
Clause (And be it enacted, That the Bill do not extend to Ireland) brought up.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read the First Time," put, and agreed to.
Clause read 1°.
COLONEL SIBTHORPsupported the Motion.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONhoped the hon. and gallant Colonel would not press his Motion. They had taken care that the people of Ireland should be taught to read; but, having done so, no libraries were established from which proper books could be got: and he believed that was the reason why they were driven to read inflammatory publications.
COLONEL RAWDONhoped his hon. and gallant Friend would not press his Motion, seeing what was the sense of the House in respect to the Bill extending to Ireland.
COLONEL CHATTERTONsaid, that as he conceived great injury would be done to Ireland by this Bill, he could not withdraw his Motion.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the said Clause be now read a Second Time."
The House divided:—Ayes 13; Noes 56: Majority 43.
Amendment made.
Bill passed.
The House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.