Commons Sitting of 8 April 1850

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Totness, Lord Seymour.
PUBLIC BILLS. 1° Public Health (Ireland); Parochial Assessment. 2° Stamp Duties.
Reported.—Exchequer Bills (9,200,000 l.): Titles of Religious Congregations.

AUSTRALIAN COLONIES.
SIR W. MOLESWORTHwished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies a question relative to an order issued by the Governor of South Australia, directing the publication of certain resolutions with regard to the new constitution of that colony, and which were to be proposed at the next meeting of the Legislative Council. These resolutions were to the following effect:—
"1. That the Imperial Parliament should confer upon the Government of South Australia complete power over all local concerns; and that in withholding from colonial jurisdiction any subjects which exclusively concern the empire, the Colonial Parliament should carefully define those subjects. 2. That the form of the legislature
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should as nearly as possible resemble that of the mother country, and consist of a governor and two chambers. 3. That all Bills passing the two chambers, and receiving the assent of the governor, should at once become law. 4. That the Colonial Office should not possess the power of disallowing any law on colonial concerns. 5. That there shall be responsible government. 6. That the governor shall be removed on address from the two houses praying for his removal. 7. That the Colonial Government shall have absolute control over the waste lands of the colony. 8, That a federal union of the Australian colonies would be inexpedient."
As some of these resolutions would lead to a constitution identical in principle with that which he (Sir W. Molesworth) proposed for these colonies, he asked the hon. Gentleman whether he had received a copy of the resolutions, with any despatch from the Governor, explaining why they have been published in an official form, and whether copies of all information on this subject will be placed in the hands of Members before the next discussion of the Australian Colonies Bill?
MR. HAWESsaid, copies of the resolutions which the hon. Baronet had just quoted had been received by the noble

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Lord at the head of the Colonial Department on Saturday last. It was to be remarked, however, that they were yet to be moved in the colonial legislature; and how far they might receive the assent of that legislature and the colonies they of course knew nothing. He had no objection to print the despatch containing them, but it must be borne in mind that they were only the resolutions to be proposed by a private Member.
MR. MOWATTsaid, all the communications which he had had from the colony convinced him that the resolutions were opposed to the general wishes of the colonists.
Subject dropped.

SUPPLY—MEDICAL OFFICERS IN THE NAVY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."
CAPTAIN BOLDERO—after presenting petitions from the medical faculties of the Universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh; King's College, London; Guy's Hospital; Leeds; Charing cross Hospital; Greenwich, Chichester, Stockport, Reading, Graves-end, Canterbury, Sheerness, Brighton, and numerous other places—said, that the prayer, in spirit and substance, of all these petitions was the same—namely, that the assistant surgeons in the Navy should be removed from the cockpit, and mess with the officers in the gun-room; and that, in respect of rank they should be placed on an equality with assistant surgeons in the Army. His object in bringing this matter forward was to have a fair, full, and impartial consideration of the question; and he would endeavour to lay before the House such facts connected with it as would lead them to a just conclusion, leaving it to the House to decide whether this state of things should be continued any longer. The House would see from the petitions which he held in his hand that they came from all quarters of the kingdom; he believed from every university or college entrusted with the education of youth for the medical profession. Petitions had also been presented from the large public hospitals of London. Every one would ask how it was that the medical practitioners in all parts of the empire bestirred themselves in favour of the assistant surgeons in the Navy. It was on account of the unwise and systematic neglect which had been
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practised towards them, by which the medical profession had been degraded, the naval surgeons insulted, and the naval service at large treated with injury and injustice. It was not necessary to enter into any arguments to prove what he had advanced. He found that as far back as 1805 an Order in Council was made that the naval assistant surgeons should be assimilated in every respect to the assistant surgeons in the Army. Till 1838, however, no steps were taken towards ameliorating their condition. In 1838–9 the reigning Monarch appointed a Commission to inquire into the Navy and Army expenditure. They made their report; and the Commissioners, who were some of the most eminent and distinguished men of the empire, recommended that the medical officers of the Navy should be assimilated, in respect of rank, pay, and retirement, with the Army, which recommendation was ordered by the Queen in Council to be carried out. What he wanted to know was, why that Order had not been obeyed, and why that recommendation had not been carried out. Had anything occurred between that time and the present which militated against it? Nothing whatever. The Committee which was appointed in 1847 to inquire into the expenditure of the Army and Navy made a report, in which they stated that the director general of the Navy had presented a memorial from the medical inspectors of naval hospitals and fleets, alleging that every medical rank in the Navy was placed one grade below that of the Army, and that the pay and retirement were proportion-ably inferior. This report also showed how injuriously this circumstance operated on the character of the naval medical service, and increased the difficulty of inducing men of ability to enter it. So sensible were the Admiralty of this that they wrote down to the University of Edinburgh, and, what was very extraordinary in public men, placed a share of the patronage of the Admiralty at their disposal. Well, the first year after this, not one appointment was applied for, and only one application was made in the second year; finally, the College passed a resolution not to avail itself of the Admiralty privilege so long as the assistant surgeons in the Navy remained in a false position on board ship. There might be candidates for these situations now, but they were not of the best description, for the élite of the colleges and universities would not enter the naval ser-

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vice. In all other professions there were plenty of candidates. There were 700 or 800 young men now waiting to enter the Army, and it was the same with every other profession in life. The exception in this particular instance was traceable to the treatment experienced by the profession, and to nothing else. In any future war the new instruments of destruction would cause such indescribable havoc in a moment, that more surgeons would be required, and it must be remembered that pressgangs could not be sent to colleges and universities to make heroes of men whether they would or not. If the House would look across the water they would find that Brother Jonathan took care to have better qualified persons. He would take the case of two young men from the University of Glasgow, moving in an equally respectable class in life, and qualified to practise medicine and surgery in any part of the empire. He would suppose one fortunate enough to get a medical commission in the Army, and other so unfortunate as to get one in the Navy. The Army assistant surgeon was received kindly by his commanding officer, introduced to his brother officers—two-thirds of whom were older than himself—installed a member of the mess, and admitted to all the privileges of social and friendly intercourse with the officers of the regiment. His room in the barracks was his castle, and he could retire to it for study whenever he pleased, by which means he was enabled to extend his professional knowledge to the great advantage of the service. In the Navy, however, immediately after an assistant surgeon reported himself to the captain, he was turned into the cockpit; and who were to be his companions in that place? Some of them might be hoys of thirteen years, for that was the age at which they admitted naval cadets. He had to sleep in a hammock or cot in that place, and had to dress and perform all his ablutions before these hoys, over whom he had no control. The result of being placed with such a body was to prevent his pursuing his professional studies, or to have due time for reflection. The more zealous an assistant surgeon might be in the performance of his duties, the more strongly must he feel the degradation of the situation in which he was placed. It should be recollected, that a combination of art and science was necessary in the medical profession, and by a combination of both many hundreds might
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be recovered; but if there was a deficiency of either, the most disastrous consequences might ensue;, and such was likely to be the case, if they allowed an inferior class of medical officers to enter the Navy. But what was the cockpit? It was a place in the hold of a ship where the sun never penetrated, where the only light was afforded artificially by means of lamps or candles, where an impure atmosphere constantly prevailed. What antagonism was there not between a cockpit and the idea of study, when the study was to be carried on in the midst of middies fond of larking and full of fun! The qualities associated with that disposition were to be admired; but a man who had spent his time at a university in quiet study was not in his proper place where such was the ruling spirit. He was subject to interruption and noise; he had no facilities for referring to works. His spirit was broken; his self-respect was destroyed, and, with it, his self-confidence, one of the first requisites to great undertakings. Under such circmnstances, these men often became careless, and resorted to ardent spirits, and when the ship arrived at port left the service. These might be called petty grievances when taken singly, but became of the most serious consequence when taken in the aggregate. With regard to their pay he had no fault to find, and his Motion did not involve any additional expense to the Government, for if it had done so, he should have hesitated before he brought it forward. As for the rank or position of assistant surgeons on board ship, it was a perfect mockery. By the regulations of the service they were told that they should have the rank of a lieutenant in the Army, or of a first lieutenant of the marines; but, in fact, this was not regarded. The instant a first lieutenant in the Army joined his regiment he assumed his proper rank, and was placed above all the cornets or ensigns, and had instantly assigned to him all the advantages of his rank; but this was not so with an assistant surgeon in the Navy. An assistant surgeon in the Navy was placed in the same rank as a first lieutenant of marines; but on being appointed and going on board a ship of war, the former had to go to the cockpit, while the other wont to the gun or ward-room. In addition to this, if an Army assistant surgeon went on board of a man-of-war with troops, he was admitted, not as a matter of favour but of right, to the ward-room, from which the assistant surgeon of the Navy was excluded. Then,

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what was the course taken with the second lieutenants of marines, who were one rant below the assistant surgeons in the Navy? Some of these lieutenants might be youths of sixteen, who had just passed an examination—for something of the kind was now required—but one infinitely inferior to that required to be undergone by the candidate for an assistant surgeoncy: they would also go into the ward-room. Then, again, the gunner, the boatswain, and the carpenter, who were inferior officers, receiving scarcely half the pay of the assistant surgeon, each had their separate cabin. He admitted there might be some reason for these classes to have cabins, but it was an anomaly to exclude their superior officer from such a privilege. He might be told that there was no room for these assistant surgeons; but he disputed the correctness of the assertion. He found, within the last few years, the change which he now proposed had been extended to two additional classes of officers. Formerly, the schoolmaster messed in the cockpit with the midshipmen; but it was found that that functionary was not treated in a proper manner by the youths under his charge, and he often lost his own self-respect. The consequence was, the Admiralty determined to appoint a naval instructor in each ship, giving him a higher pay, and placing him in the ward-room. The result was, they got a better class of men to attend to the social and moral education of these youths. It had been the same with the engineers engaged in the steam navy. At first, the Admiralty placed that class of officers in an inferior position, but eventually they were forced to change their rank and increase their accommodation. He believed many of the chief officers of engineers ranked as commanders, and those immediately under that class were entitled to places in the ward-room with the rank of lieutenants. Now, if it were necessary for a man dealing with the machinery of a steam-vessel to have superior comforts and a superior rank, how much more necessary was it for them to deal liberally with men who had the care of so delicate a machine as the human frame. Under the existing system, who could wonder if there was an inferior class of men in the service, if they were not treated with that respect which their station entitled them to? A friend of his recently told him an anecdote which would serve to show what respect was entertained for the opinion of a naval surgeon.
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A captain commanding a British man-of-war received a wound in his leg after a sharp contest, and his ship surgeon advised him to have his leg amputated, declaring that he could not live a day without it was removed. The captain, however, refused to take the advice, and having the wound bandaged up, he made for the nearest port, where his leg was dressed, and so far from amputation being necessary, he soon recovered, and was now walking upon his two legs. They should also remember that seamen were more full of prejudices than any other class of men; and if they thought they were slighted and proper care was not taken of them by the medical attendants, they fretted, and became reduced to a sad condition. There were other points which he could bring be-fore the House in support of his Motion; but, without detaining it further, he thought he had stated sufficient to show the necessity of a change in the system. He did not make this Motion in behalf of the assistant surgeons, for he was not acquainted with a single one, nor had he had any communication with that body. It was from a pure, honest, and conscientious belief that there was an injury done to the naval service generally that he made this Motion, and he hoped the House would have no difficulty in agreeing to it.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words—
"It is the opinion of this House, that the accommodation provided for the assistant surgeons on board Her Majesty's ships of war, is inadequate and insufficient for securing the full benefit of their professional service,"
instead thereof.
ADMIRAL DUNDASsaid, that there were two points in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member which he felt called upon to reply to. The hon. and gallant Member said that there were no candidates for the situation of assistant naval surgeons. Now, at the commencement of last year there were 178 applicants on the list who had passed, and there were now on it 263 names. Of these 23 had been placed on half-pay, and 39 were waiting for appointments. During the present year they had only been able to take eleven names from the list for appointments. He believed there were more candidates for the office than there had been for many previous years. He did not believe, also, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was right in speaking in

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terms of disparagement of the assistant surgeons in the Navy; he (Admiral Dundas) was of opinion that they were fully equal in efficiency to the assistant surgeons in the Army. With regard to their accommodation, the Admiralty some years ago issued an order directing that on board every ship in the Royal Navy a cabin should be prepared twice the size of any other in the vessel, for the accommodation of the assistant surgeons, mates, and midshipmen. Surely in such an apartment they might pursue their studies without any trouble. If this concession was made, it must also be conceded to the mates, who had served six years as midshipmen, and often for a longer period. If they looked to the dimensions of the ward-rooms, he would ask what accommodation could be afforded them? Ina man-of-war the dimensions were generally 26 feet by 20 feet, and in this cabin alone 22 officers bad to find accommodation. If they added to this number four mates and three assistant surgeons, they would run the number up to nearly 30. He was quite sure that the adoption of this proposition would be against the feeling of the service. He did not believe, also, that the officers in the Navy entertained feelings of prejudice against the medical officers in the service; and for his own part he believed the best surgeons then in the Navy were those who had been brought up in the cockpit. He should feel it his duty to oppose the Motion.
MR. HUMEfelt obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman who brought this subject forward. The question was, whether the Navy, as a branch of the public service, was not entitled to have as able medical men as the Army. It was notorious at present that no man would go into the Navy as an assistant surgeon who could find employment in that capacity in the Army. It appeared to him that the system of accommodation on board ships for the assistant surgeons was a gross injustice to the service generally. The gallant Admiral said that there was no room for the accommodation of this class of officers in the ward-room; but the Admiralty gave the same answer seven or eight years ago; but since then three additional officers have been placed in the ward-room. The gallant Admiral also stated, that there was a very numerous class of candidates for the office of assistant surgeon in the Navy; but Sir W. Burnett, the head of the medical department in the Navy, said, in his evidence in 1848, that he hardly ever saw
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a candidate for such an appointment whom he should wish to see attached to the naval medical service. He was happy to find that Sir W. Burnett, since he had been at the head of his department, had greatly raised the character of the medical men in the Navy, and had so rendered it that these examinations should be of improved and extended character. It had been said, that there were few or no complaints made against the present system by the assistant surgeons themselves; but it was not very encouraging to come forward and make complaints, when they found even admirals snubbed by civilians at head-quarters. He knew, however, that he could procure the signatures of three-fourths of the assistant surgeons in the Navy, expressing their dissatisfaction at the present state of things as regarded themselves. He admitted that this was a matter of detail, and which, if possible, should be left to be settled by the Board of Admiralty; but as that body would not do anything in the matter, he certainly should support any Motion which was calculated to carry this object into effect. He trusted the House would express its opinion in such a manner as to show that it had the same sympathy for the medical men in the Navy as for the other officers of that branch of the service.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 40; Noes 48: Majority 8.
On the Question that the House agree to the resolution,
ADMIRAL BERKELEYsaid, he was sorry he bad not risen to address the House at an earlier stage of the discussion. No man in the House of Commons entertained a greater feeling of respect for the assistant surgeons of the Navy, nor could any one in that House wish to see them placed in a higher position than himself; but he not only believed that it was not only for their good that they should not be placed in the ward-room, but also that it would be a great blow to the efficiency of the service if they at once sent the assistant surgeons to mess in the ward-room. With respect to a separate cabin, which had been alluded to, he would ask whether it was likely that an assistant surgeon would like to mess in his own cabin alone? The hon. and gallant Member said this class of medical officers were in a worse position than the officers of the Royal Marines, He would venture to say that many a young man who entered the service in the Royal Marines, and who had not the assistance

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of friends to provide him with an outfit, had to borrow money for that purpose, who, after his introduction into the service, and after tailing his place in the ward-room of a man of war, found the expenses of the mess to which he belonged so heavy that of that charge, together with the debt he had incurred, he was unable to clear himself, and was at length obliged to leave the service. An assistant surgeon in the Navy, who had received no pecuniary assistance from his friends, would be placed in the same position in which a young marine officer so often found himself if he was made a member of the wardroom, and would thus incur debts which he would not be able to liquidate. As it was at present he need not place himself in such a situation of difficulty. It might be said that the midshipmen were skylarking boys, or it might be said they were school boys; but then it should be recollected that for the most part they had received their education in the best private seminaries, and in the public schools, such as Rugby, Eton, and Harrow. He should like to know how many assistant surgeons received a superior education to the class which he had described. But if they gave way on this point, what would be the result? There had always been a difficulty in transferring assistant surgeons from a line-of-battle ship to a ten-gun brig, on account of the superior accommodation they enjoyed in the former; but that difficulty would be greatly enhanced if the service should require one who had messed in the ward-room of a line-of-battle ship to descend to a ten-gun brig, where there would be no ward-room for him. This attempt to place the assistant surgeons over the heads of their superiors in rank in the Navy, and their equals as gentlemen in every way, was one of the greatest blows that could be inflicted upon the naval service of this country. He wished to know why the hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham did not, when he was connected with the Government, go to the Admiralty and endeavour to induce it to adopt his arrangement? If the hon. and gallant Gentleman had brought forward the present Motion at that period, he (Admiral Berkeley) believed the Admiralty of that day would have opposed it on principle, as strongly as the present Board of Admiralty. Allusion had been made to the circumstance that within a short time separate cabins had been given to the chief engineers on board vessels, but this could only happen on board of steam-vessels as
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they were not wanted on board of men-of-war, or ten-gun brigs. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had asked why a cabin was given to the chief engineer? The answer was, that when the weather was bad, and lives might be in danger, the chief engineer was obliged to be up at all hours of the night, and he could not be put where the assistant surgeon was, inasmuch as that part of the ship was occupied during the day. The hon. and gallant Officer had also asked why the junior engineers had a cabin. It was because they messed there. As they did not mess with the midshipmen, and could not be asked to associate with the ship's company, the junior engineers had cabins. There was no ward-room except in ships of the line; in small vessels commanded by lieutenants, the assistant surgeons could have no other mess-place except with the mates and midshipmen. The House should bear in mind that every foot that was taken off the deck of a frigate was a foot taken also from the comfort of the seamen, and that every foot taken away from a line-of-battle ship encumbered the management of the guns when the ship was to be cleared for action. Upon these grounds he refused to put the assistant surgeons above their superiors in the Navy, and he denied that the feelings of officers of the Navy were in favour of the proposal.
CAPTAIN BOLDERO, in answer to the question put to him, by the hon. and gallant Officer who had just resumed his seat, why he had not, when a Member of the Administration, brought forward such a proposal, said, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had surely been long enough in office to know that it was not customary for a person attached to one department to interfere with another. At the same time, he had always made every effort in his power to accomplish the object of his Motion. The House had confirmed that Motion, and he now left it in their hands.
SIR F. T. BARINGregretted that the House had expressed its opinion upon the proposition submitted to it by the hon. and gallant Gentleman in the way it had done, and that he (Sir F. Baring) had not had the opportunity of speaking upon it. As, however, the majority had so declared its opinion, he was not prepared again to divide the House upon the subject. This question, after all, depended upon the practicability of carrying out the views affirmed by the House. From the statements made by naval officers themselves, it appeared there were practical difficulties in the way, which he was afraid would prove

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an insurmountable barrier to the attainment of the object in view. There was no disinclination whatever on the part of the Admiralty to make any such change as was recommended. That board had no object whatever in treating assistant surgeons in any other way but in a kind manner. But the great difficulty in the case was in reference to accommodation. In 1840 there was a commission appointed to inquire into the matter, before whom many arguments were adduced in relation to the accommodation to be afforded to assistant surgeons. That commission considered and inquired how far they might be enabled to meet the difficulty, and they reported, that upon the fullest consideration of the subject they found that there were practical difficulties in the way of making any improved arrangements in respect to those officers; that they had ascertained that the accommodation afforded them of late years was so improved as to render any movement for a change unnecessary; and, therefore, they were not prepared to make any recommendation. As he had said before, it was not his intention to take the opinion of the House again upon the subject; but be thought it unfortunate that they should be holding out expectations which he was afraid the Admiralty could never realise. The vote just carried in the House of Commons could have no practical effect. There was not the slightest disinclination on the part of the Board of Admiralty to give the fullest accommodation to this as well as every other class of officers in the Navy; but he was afraid it would be found impossible to accede to the recommendation of the hon. and gallant Member.
MR. HUMEsaid, the report of the commission of 1840 recommended various alterations and improvements, which, if carried, would have conferred the greatest improvements in the way of increased accommodation. But though it certainly stated that the evidence went to show there was a practical difficulty in finding room for an additional cabin, yet it should be recollected that since that period they had found room for three additional cabins. If any hon. Gentleman would read over that evidence, he must come to the conclusion that if "there's a will there's a way." There was a want of will on the part of the naval officers to afford this accommodation. Their habits of education made certain impressions upon them, which induced a certain portion of them, at all
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events, to oppose such an arrangement as was now called for.
Question, "That the proposed words be added," put, and agreed to.
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY-REPRISALS-GREECE.
On the Question being again put "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair,"
MR. C. ANSTEY, pursuant to notice, rose to call the attention of the House to the illegality of reprisals when made by officers in Her Majesty's Navy without the authority of an Order in Council. He should begin by referring to the blue book which had been printed, containing the correspondence relating to certain claims of British subjects upon the Greek Government, and which had recently led to unpleasant results. He did not approach the subject in a spirit hostile either to the position taken up by the claimants, or to the policy which had been assumed by the Government on their behalf. On the contrary, he was satisfied that it would have been a national dishonour if the Government had remained inactive, and had not taken up the claims of those parties, and done their best to obtain redress. What he complained of was the informality of the procedure. Under the date of the 30th of November, 1849, he observed a letter he might call a duplicate, for the two were nearly in the same terms, from the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary to Admiral Sir William Parker, and to Mr. Wyse, in which the noble Lord stated that he had been commanded by the Queen to cause the requisite instructions to be given to Sir William Parker to put himself in commnnication with Mr. Wyse on the subject of these claims; and if the proper satisfaction were not given, then, after concert with Mr. Wyse—let the House observe this—Admiral Parker was to have recourse to such measures as he might think best calculated to obtain satisfaction. It appeared by this letter, which was the only document, as the noble Lord himself had informed the House the other night, which contained any instructions on the subject, that Her Majesty had been advised to depart with her exclusive prerogative in favour of Admiral Parker—that awful and tremendous prerogative of war or peace—which, according to the constitution of the country, could only be exercised by Her Majesty herself in Privy Council. It might be objected to him that this was mere

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form; that Her Majesty's commands, whether signified through the Privy Council, or through the Secretary of State, were equally binding upon those to whom they were addressed. But it was not a question of form—it was of far greater consequence; for upon this question, whether the constitutional practice of former days should be adhered to, or departed from, depended the still graver question whether it should be left to a single man, although a Secretary of State, to plunge this country, by his own act, into war and collision with the other Powers of Europe. Now, before the consent of the Privy Council could be had, that Council must be assembled, and then it would rest with the colleagues of the noble Lord, and with those who, although not his colleagues, were members of the Privy Council, to say whether all practical means had been exhausted for a satisfactory adjustment of the dispute, whether all the well-understood and customary forms of international intercourse had been observed, and whether the instructions to the British admiral had been or not improvident. Some persons were of opinion that a new tribunal of national arbitration should be formed for the adjustment of disputes between this country and others. He gave no opinion on that; but he contended that the constitution of England had already provided tribunals for the settlement of differences such as this, which had gone far to place us in a state of war with Greece, and with the two Powers associated with us in the protectorate of Greece, namely, Russia and France. The noble Lord had admitted this was a case of reprisal, not of blockade; but the case of reprisal was closely allied to the case of war. Nay, reprisal was war, the only difference being, that war was perfect hostility, while reprisals might be carried on only so far as to create a state of imperfect hostility. All writers and authorities agreed that there was no other difference between war and reprisals; and by our law the same power only to which was committed the office of declaring war, was vested with the office of making reprisals. The same formalities, too, that were necessary to the making of war, were necessary to the making of reprisals. Whether the ship was a Queen's ship, or one sailing under letters of marque, was perfectly immaterial; in either case all the formalities must be observed. The same necessity also that required proclamation of war, required proclamation of reprisals. All the same con-
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ditions, in fine, were necessary in each case, and the object was to ensure that a public and clear notice should be given to the foreign State. It was only of late years that we had begun to depart from these wise and wholesome ordinances; but every case of departure was a crime. He must, however, absolve the noble Lord from the imputation of being the first or only Secretary of State who had done so. The noble Lord had certainly substituted for the constitutional authority of the Privy Council the unauthorised interposition of the Secretary of State; but he (Mr. Anstey) was sorry to say that the Earl of Aberdeen had been guilty of the same deviation in the affair of the river Parana. He (Mr. Anstey) therefore drew no distinction between the noble Lord and his predecessor in office. It would be said that these were cases in which the Secretary of State's warrant was a sufficient authority. But, unless war was actually raging, when extraordinary reprisals might be authorised and revoked by the mere warrant of the Secretary of State, no Secretary of State, no Minister of the Crown, not even the Lord High Admiral himself, could so act without the authority of the Privy Council. They could not otherwise authorise an act of violence, whether of war or reprisals. The one authority was Her Majesty the Queen in Council; and that they pretended to set aside, and, with it, one of the wise checks provided by the constitution against hasty measures of hostility, and for preventing Ministers from suddenly and unadvisedly involving the country in war. The positions he had laid down did not depend upon speculative opinions given by writers on international law, nor were they merely to be found only in the obsolete works of the lawyers and jurists of ancient days. Whenever there had come any question of this kind before our courts in ancient or in modern times, the same anxiety might be traced on the part of the Judges to see that all the forms had been observed. But then the penalty was not borne by the Minister, who was not warranted in giving the order, but by the unfortunate instrument which had carried that order into execution; and if Admiral Parker returned to this country, the parties whose goods have been seized under the instructions of the noble Lord, which were not warranted by an Order in Council, or proclamation under the Great Seal, would have a right of action against that unfortunate and gallant officer, and might recover heavy damages. These

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being the constitutional rules, and there having been this departure from them, he asked the noble Lord or any hon. Member who meant to defend the course taken by the noble Lord, to say by what length of practice, or by what extent of error, was this departure to be excused? He looked in vain for an instance of the same kind further back than the last ten or twelve years, and he found that it was in proportion as the old skill of the diplomatist was dying away, and diplomacy becoming obsolete, these errors became more frequent. He inferred, therefore, that they occurred not from design but from ignorance. He did not accuse the noble Lord of ignorance of diplomacy, but he observed that ignorance of it existed above him and around him and beneath him; and he thought that the place of Secretary of State offered strong temptation to the holder of it to increase the power and influence belonging to his office, and then whatever one Secretary of State had done, another was always ready to imitate if it tended to confirm his strength and power. But when he referred to history he found how careful our forefathers had been to observe the forms and practices which had come down to them from past days, and how their examples in that particular were subsequently confirmed by the decisions of Lord Stowell, Sir N. Tindal, and other great men of our times, who declared them to be of obligation for ourselves. In the time of Charles II.—a period not fertile in constitutional precedents, but honourably distinguished from our own age in this respect, that no Secretary of State then arrogated to himself the power belonging to the Sovereign only, of declaring war—these forms were strictly observed. The same course continued to be taken down to the renewal of the revolutionary war in 1802. In no case, whatever the provocation or emergency, had reprisals abroad or embargoes at home been attempted, except by warrant of the Privy Council, or proclamation under the Great Seal. And this brought us down to the peace of 1815, at which what he might call the modern period began; but even in the course of the modern period he found the influence of tradition still so strong, that so lately as 1840, when the noble Lord was Foreign Secretary, and when a case of reprisals was about to be set up against the Emperor of China, the noble Lord, for the purpose of sanctioning the hostile equipment that had been ordered against that Power,
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adopted the formality of an Order in Council. Yet, nothing beyond the mere formality having been adopted, and the substance being wanting, it proved insufficient afterwards to protect in courts of justice those who had obeyed it. The hon. and learned Gentleman here cited cases in support of his argument, one being a case in the time of Charles II., of a demand made against the Dutch for the confiscation of two English vessels at Batavia, and in which there had been not only an Order in Council, but a proclamation. The noble Lord would probably say, in those cases of claim against the Greek Government, that there had been application after application by the Crown for redress, but that no redress followed. But it was precisely because there had been this forbearance during the long period for which these claims had been allowed to sleep, it was this long impunity granted by our Government, which had caused the Greek Government to suppose that in our late demands we were not sincere, to assume that the British Government were equally insincere in the last as in the former applications, and that if they resisted, as they had done before, their resistance would be again followed by the like impunity. One of these claims was as old as the 20th November, 1839, and had been allowed to sleep till December, 1849, a period of ten years. Two other claims, dated in 1846, and no answer had yet been received regarding one in 1847. There were periods of two, three, and four years, between the last communication on our side and the last on the side of the Greeks, and nothing had been done. Why, was it to be supposed that the Greek Government would be more intimidated by our peremptory tone in the year 1850, than at any time since 1839, during which time they had been doomed to bear the official ire, not only of the noble Lord, but the Earl of Aberdeen? It was not fair to the Greek Government to depart, in this instance, from the old forms of diplomacy, which even by that piratical and semi-barbarous State would have been perfectly understood; and he believed that if they had been observed, there would have been no occasion to resort now to the costly and dangerous method of reprisals. Before concluding, he begged to dissociate himself from all the unfair observations which had been made elsewhere upon these claims. He held that there never had been claims more founded in justice. He was not

19
attacking the present or any other Government in particular, nor endeavouring under colour of the irregularity of procedure to impeach the justice and validity of the claims themselves. But he trusted that some assurance would be exacted by the House, that our future procedure in such cases would be conformable to the constitution and the law, and not to these recent and unworthy precedents.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I am sure nothing could be fairer than the manner in which the hon. and learned Gentleman has brought this legal question before the notice of the House. He has, I am bound to say, entirely separated it from anything of a political character; and he has, in that spirit, stated his opinion upon its legal and constitutional bearings. All I can say is, without pretending to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman into the historical details he has given upon this matter, that I am advised by those by whose legal opinion I consider it my duty to be guided in my official conduct, that no Order in Council is necessary for effecting reprisals, so far as they have been effected in this particular instance—that is, for the detention of vessels as pledges for obtaining redress from the foreign Power upon whom demands for redress have been made. I am quite ready to concede to the hon. and learned Gentleman, that if it were necessary to go a step further, and to condemn or confiscate and sell the vessels, for the purpose of realising the reprisals, an Order in Council would be necessary. I am quite ready to concur with the hon. and learned Gentleman that an Order in Council would be necessary for the purpose of establishing a commission to condemn and sell the vessels; but I stand upon the advice which has been given to me, and I am perfectly convinced in my own mind that the advice is sound, that, for the purpose of seizing and detaining vessels with a view to future proceedings, it is sufficient there should be an order from the responsible officer of the Crown, being the Secretary of State, signifying the Queen's pleasure, as Sovereign, to the Admiralty, in reference to the orders to be communicated to the officers whose duty it may be to carry them into execution. I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman he is mistaken in supposing that if these measures should, as I trust they may, lead to a satisfactory result, and the vessels should be released without the necessity of confiscation and
20
sale, the parties to whom any of those vessels belong would have any good ground for legal proceedings in the courts of law of this country against any of the officers employed in the execution of these orders. I am advised, and I am convinced of the perfect soundness of the advice, that the officers so executing the orders of the Crown would be home harmless by showing that they did those acts as naval men in execution of the orders they had received. I believe that was distinctly laid down in the case of Captain Denman. It is perfectly constitutional as well as legal, that an officer is bound by the orders he receives; and it is sufficient for him to show that the acts he has done were ordered to be done beforehand by the Crown, or were sanctioned subsequently by the department from which the orders were received with the sanction of the Crown. I must, therefore, notwithstanding the opinions of the hon. and learned Gentleman, retain those I have acted upon. I have acted upon the opinions of the law officers, upon whose opinion it was my duty as a Minister of the Crown to act; and upon that legal opinion, I am convinced that that which has been done is strictly in accordance with the law and constitution of the realm.
MR. HUMEsaid, it would be convenient if the noble Lord would inform the House at this period what were the state of the negotiations with reference to our differences with Greece, or whether there was any prospect of their termination. The noble Lord was aware that, under existing circumstances, the trade of the country was materially interfered with; and it was very desirable, on that account, to know what prospect there was of a settlement.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: There is nobody in this House who takes a deeper interest in the prosperity of the kingdom of Greece than I do. It fell to my lot to take part in those proceedings which led to the emancipation of the Greek nation, and to Greece being made an independent State; and upon every ground, I can assure the hon. Member, it has been exceedingly painful to me to feel it my duty to be the organ by which any measure could be adopted that would in any way press upon the Greek nation. But it is not against the Greek nation, but the Greek Government, that we have been obliged to take these steps. The last accounts we had from Greece stated that Baron Gros, who is employed by the French Govern-

21
ment as the organ of their good offices, was at Athens, and was employed in investigating those matters with regard to which it is his duty to act. No result at that time had taken place; and it is scarcely possible, considering the shortness of the time he had been in Athens, that I should be able to give my hon. Friend any distinct answer to his question.
Subject dropped.

SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
The House then went into Committee of Supply; Mr. Bernal in the chair.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, it now became his duty to bring under the consideration of the Committee the estimates for the Ordnance service for the present year. One of the principal difficulties connected with the discussion of these estimates on former occasions had arisen from the vague statements which had been made by hon. Members with reference to the conduct of the department, and which bad been so varied and conflicting that it had been difficult for those who had occupied the station he had the honour to fill to meet such general statements in a manner satisfactory to the House. He was happy to say, however, that that difficulty no longer existed. These estimates bad been submitted to the consideration of a Select Committee, and the hon. Members who had sat upon that Committee, as well as those who had taken the trouble to dive into the largo blue hook containing the evidence given before them, would be able so to frame their inquiries as to elicit clear and explicit answers. He rejoiced that this was the case, because he should now feel far less difficulty and embarrassment in answering any charges that might be made, or affording any explanations that might be required. He might be allowed to remind the Committee of the circumstances under which the Select Committee to which he had referred was appointed. In 1848 a reverse had come over the affairs of this country; it had fallen from a state of high prosperity into one of considerable depression; the public expenses had largely increased, while the finances had diminished; and it became apparent that either the expenditure must be reduced, or some extraordinary means must he taken to meet the increased expenditure. The increase which had taken place in the Army, Navy, and Ordnance estimates naturally attracted the attention of those hon. Members who took an interest
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in the subject. In a matter of this kind, however, no one could be more deeply interested than the Government themselves, for they were the parties most likely to suffer from a careless expenditure of money, and from unnecessary demands upon that House. He thought, therefore, that the Government had with a very wise discretion consented to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into these estimates. A period of twenty years had elapsed since such an inquiry had taken place; and at that time his noble Friend Lord Hardinge had the chief conduct of the business of the department, and carried out many improvements which increased its efficiency, and were, at the same time, advantageous to the public. He conceived that the Government had acted wisely and judiciously in consenting to the appointment of the Committee, because he thought it very desirable that at stated periods some unprejudiced persons should be called to give their opinions upon the conduct of such public departments, and afford the benefit of their advice to the country as well as to the departments. The Government, conscious of their own integrity, knew that such an inquiry would show that they had endeavoured to maintain the best interests of the country, and they were not disappointed by the result of the labours of the Committee, which had been laid before the House in a most able report, containing various recommendations which it had been the duty of the Government to consider, and it would be for the Committee to say whether they had been carried out to as full an extent as was desirable. To those recommendations it would be necessary for him to make frequent allusions in the course of his statement. The whole amount required for the service of the Ordnance department for the year 1850 was 2,434,417 l.; in 1849 it was 2,632,601 l.; so that there was a diminution in the present year of 198,184 l. He would, however, ask the Committee to look at the estimates of preceding years. In 1848 the amount of the estimate was 2,992,143 l., so that the difference between that estimate and the one he would submit to the House was no less than 557,726 l. The increase in the Ordnance estimates commenced in 1845, when the total estimate was 2,287,716 l., being an increase on the estimate of 1844 of 287,758 l. In 1846 there was an increase of 430,218 l.; in 1847, of 144,547 l.; and, in 1848, of 127,644 l.; making the total increase upon

23
those four years 990,167 l. This certainly appeared a formidable increase, but the House must bear in mind, that if blame was attributable to any one for this large increase, it did not attach to the Government alone. It would be remembered that, from 1835 to 1845, charges were repeatedly made against the Government that they did not sufficiently attend to the security and defence of the country. Those charges were made not only by hon. Members connected with the Army and Navy, who might be supposed to be somewhat prejudiced and biassed in favour of their own professions, but also by independent Members; and, therefore, a portion of any blame must be borne by the House itself. He did not think the House would be so inconsistent, so weak, or so dishonest, as to disclaim all participation in this increased expenditure; but he was certain, that neither the late Government, with whom the increase originated, nor the present Government, by whom it had been continued up to 1848, would shrink from the responsibility of having recommended the House to augument the naval and military forces of the nation, to provide the equipments necessary for those forces, and also to adopt such measures as might be necessary for the protection and security of the seaports and dockyards. It was for these objects that the largely increased expenditure of 990,000 l. was incurred, and he believed those objects had been in a great measure accomplished. But if the increase of expenditure had been rapid, so had the decrease in the two last years—for in those years a reduction of upwards of 557,000 l. had been effected; leaving the total increase on the expenditure of 1844 somewhat more than 432,000 l. It might be said, "Why maintain this increase when the objects for which it was incurred have been accomplished?" But he would ask the House to look at the circumstances. One of the main objects of the increase was to place the Ordnance military corps in an efficient state. That corps consisted of the Artillery, Engineers, and Sappers and Miners, and between 1846 and the present time there had been an increase of about 5,000 men, including additions of 4,200 men to the Artillery, 910 men to the Sappers and Miners, and a number of officers to the Engineers. The difference between the estimate for the present year, and that for 1845, would be about 146,000 l.; and this increase of
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force would, he thought, more than account for the increase of the Estimates. The Committee must also remember, however, that there were other services for which it was considered necessary to provide. The armament of the Navy was incomplete; there were various points on the coast open to assailants which it was necessary to protect; and additions had been made to the Army which rendered it necessary to provide additional barrack accommodation and supplies. He thought it would be admitted that the Ordnance Department was one which it was essential to the interests of the country to maintain in a state of efficiency, whether during peace or war; but the establishment which they possessed previously to 1845 had been quite inadequate to the demands of the service in this country and the colonies, and on that ground it had been considered most desirable to increase it. Objections had been made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose to the amount of our naval and military force; and this year he had brought Motions forward for their reduction; but the House was of opinion that they were required as proposed by the Government. On this ground it was considered necessary that the force should be rendered efficient, a decision which, of course, involved additional expense. The opinion of Sir H. D. Ross, who was examined before the Committee, as well as the report of the Committee itself, would satisfy the House as to the necessity for the increase. Sir H. D. Ross stated, that the insufficiency of numbers in the artillery, combined with the demands of the service, rendered it impossible to complete the education of the men; and that according to the testimony of the military authorities, artillery had become of increased importance, in consequence of the progress of military science and tactics, and that the British Army possessed a far less number of that highly essential arm of the service in proportion to their number than foreign armies. They had also had very convincing evidence within the last two years, during the war in India, of the advantage and necessity of a powerful artillery; and though he was not one of those who thought that all future contests were to be decided by artillery alone, he did regard artillery as a powerful adjunct to an Army, without which any commander would feel himself comparatively powerless. He hoped it would be a sufficient answer to those who complained of the increase of this force, if

25
it could be shown that that increase had been made for the purpose of rendering thoroughly efficient a force which was acknowledged on all hands to be one which it was most desirable for this country to maintain, and which could not be raised on any sudden emergency. The same observation applied to the corps of Engineers, a body of men with whom superior scientific education needed to be combined with, and confirmed by military discipline and experience. Every Gentleman, he felt sure, would acknowledge that this was a force which it concerned the public advantage very intimately to retain in the most efficient possible condition. Having made these general remarks, he would now proceed to the particular heads of the Estimates. The first recommendation made by the Committee was, that in future the number of men required should be a distinct vote, and therefore in the resolution which he should place in the Chairman's hands the number of men required would be stated. The first vote proposed would accordingly be for the pay, allowances, and contingencies for 14,569 officers, noncommissioned officers, and men of the several Ordnance corps and departments, which it was proposed to maintain for service at home and abroad—712,755 l. In 1849–50 this estimate was 711,895 l., showing an apparent increase this year of 860 l., while, last year, the number of men voted was 14,123, showing, in like manner, an apparent increase this year of 446 men; but he had to explain that last year 415 non-commissioned officers and men, Royal Sappers and Miners, employed in surveys, were not included in the number, whereas, this year, although the charge was not a military charge, the men were borne on the strength of the corps. The further addition this year consisted of twenty-two lieutenants, whom it had been deemed essential to add to the establishment. The Committee recommended that no change should be made in the force of the Ordnance military corps without the sanction of the House, and this recommendation would be acted upon in future years. The difference in the amount to be voted this year was accounted for in the pay of the additional lieutenants. There was also an increase this year under the head of "Movement of Troops" of 6,500 l as compared with 4,750 l. last year; but under the head "Recruiting" there was a diminution of 18,154 l., as compared
26
with 20,403 l. last year. The Committee next, in reference to the recommendation of the Commission of 1828, that the medical department of the Ordnance should be united with that of the Army, stated that it had been represented to them that this change would greatly diminish the comforts of the soldiers in the Ordnance service, without effecting any material saving. In the summary of their report, however, the Committee recommended that there should be a reduction effected in this department, and this recommendation had been carried out to the utmost practicable extent. The office of director general of the medical department bad been abolished; the new establishment, as reduced in amount of cost from 10,202 l. to 9,829 l., had been submitted to the Treasury, had received their sanction, and was now on as low a scale as the wants of the service would permit. The other part of the question, the amalgamation of the department altogether with that of the Army, had been most maturely considered; but, certainly, it appeared that great objections were felt to this change. Whether these objections arose from old habits or prejudices on the part of men long connected with the service, or from a well-founded idea that the comforts of the men in the Ordnance service would not be so well attended to, he could not then decide. The question was under the serious consideration of his right hon. Friend the Secretary at War. When he had formed his opinion upon it, and came to a decision, he was satisfied that in carrying out that decision, his right hon. Friend would meet with the cordial co-operation of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Anglesey) at the head of the Ordnance department to the utmost extent that should be at once calculated for the public advantage and for the well-being and comfort of the force. The Committee recommended that the Royal Sappers and Miners should be more extensively employed in the survey of our colonies. Before this recommendation could be adopted it must be ascertained that the service suggested was actually necessary, and it must further be borne in mind that, should this corps be so employed in our colonies, it would still be a question whether the country was to bear the expense, or the colonies. The recommendation of the Committee, that the system practised in regard to the Army should be applied to the Ordnance military corps—namely, that any change in the strength of this corps

27
should be officially communicated to the Master General by the Secretary of State, and that the amount of the force should be separately brought under the notice of the House of Commons in a distinct vote submitted for its approval, he had already referred to as having been adopted. The next vote was, for Commissariat and barrack supplies for Her Majesty's land forces, and great coats and clothing for the Army, &c., 273,837 l., the estimate last year having been 301,650 l., so that there was a diminution this year of 24,813 l. This diminution was chiefly in the article of forage, which exhibited a decrease of more than 15,000 l as compared with the estimate of last year; and there were other reductions under the heads of coals, candles, palliasse straw, &c. Under the head of "Purchase and repair of barrack and hospital furniture and bedding at home and abroad," there was a decreased vote of 71,638 l.; therefore, as compared with 78,000 l last year, exhibiting a diminution of 6,462 l. on this vote, arising chiefly from less being required for the class of old pensioners. In reference to the troops stationed in Ireland, the Committee objected to the greater expense of the commissariat system lately introduced, and recommended a return to the system of provisioning those troops previously in operation. The recommendation, however, had not been acted upon, and the commissariat department established in Ireland was still retained there. It was required for the relief of the destitute poor of that country; and so long as it was retained, there would not probably be much economy in reverting to the former system of provisioning the troops and supplying the cavalry with forage. The answer, however, given by the department to the Treasury showed that large reductions had been made in the establishment, lessening the expense one half. The question would come under the consideration of the Commission now sitting on the Army and Navy administration, and the Government upon their report would be better able to decide whether it should be retained or not for their service. The next vote was salaries and contingencies of the Ordnance Offices at the Tower and Pall-mall, 86,961 l., as compared with 85,881 l. last year, exhibiting an increase of 1,080 l. He regretted that this increase should have been found necessary, and the more so that these establishments had been already made peculiarly the subject of remark and of complaint as
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to their cost; but he could assure the Committee that the increase had not been made without the most mature and anxious consideration, and with the closet reference to the public interest. He would beg of the Committee to recollect that in 1848 the charge under this head was 95,564 l., so that the charge for 1850 exhibited, as compared with that year, a decrease of 8,603 l. The increase had arisen from the increase in the salaries of persons in the surveyor-general's branch, in the store branch, and in the inspector-general of fortifications' branch. But, on the other hand, it was to be recollected that the number of persons employed in this department had been, since 1828, reduced from 303 to 218, and the charge for the same period from 101,971 l. to 96,961 l.; so that he thought the Government should have credit for having gradually brought the cost of this department to the lowest point compatible with the actual acquirements of the public service. There was, under the head of postage, an additional charge this year of 500 l. making the total postage charge 8,000 l., a charge itself altogether recent, and which accounted for a large item of the amount. As regarded the Ordnance itself, the Committee reported their opinion that the constitution of the office, the division of the subordinate departments, and the mode of transacting business, were capable of considerable improvements, and they ought to be revised by the Government. They had, however, abstained from proposing any scheme for the future constitution of the Ordnance, because they believe that any improvement in the practical working of the office could only be effected by the Executive Government, and by the co-operation of persons familiar with the details of business now transacted by the Ordnance. The recommendation of the Committee with reference to the office of store account examiner had been carried into effect as nearly as possible. When he, in 1835–6, filled the office of storekeeper to the Ordnance, he had strongly advocated this arrangement, and it would have been then carried into effect but for the objections which stood in the way. Now, however, it had been decided to place the office of store account examiner under the surveyor-general, and other arrangements had been adopted in this particular department which would materially facilitate the transaction of business there, and ultimately, he hoped, give the means of reduction of expenditure.

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The recommendation of the Committee for the amalgamation of the offices of the Surveyor General and of the Clerk of the Ordnance was being carried out; at least, the thing was in a transition state; and he was happy to find that even the persons belonging to the departments themselves, who had hitherto objected to the arrangement, were now ready to acknowledge that the alteration would be productive of much good to the public service in the facilitation of business. There was another most important recommendation of the Committee with reference to the manner of keeping the store accounts, which the Government had taken into most careful consideration. The evidence of Mr. Anderson showed that hitherto these accounts had been kept in a most imperfect and unsatisfactory manner; but a method bad been pointed out by that gentleman, by which the difficulties in the way of improving the system might be readily overcome. Immediately after the report of the Committee was published, the Ordnance Office applied to the Government to appoint a Committee for the purpose of inquiring into the best mode of keeping these accounts, and a Committee was appointed, which bad applied to the subject all the time they had been able to spare from another most important inquiry which had been intrusted to them. They had as yet produced no report, and had admitted all the difficulties of the task they had undertaken. They found that notwithstanding the supposition that a system of double entry could be established in our store accounts, it was totally impossible; that the magnitude of the accounts and the enormous number of articles to be accounted for by the storekeepers precluded the possibility of it. They had, however, applied themselves as closely as they possibly could to the question, and he hoped in a very short time we might have a report with regard to the Navy; he did not believe they had been able yet to look into the manner of keeping the store accounts of the Ordnance. If he should have the honour of submitting the estimates in another year, he supposed he should be able to state some of the results of their labours. The next recommendation of the Select Committee was with respect to the warrant of 1825. The Ordnance Office was not constituted like any other office under the Government; the power of the Master General was supreme; he could make the appointments as he
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pleased, so long as he confined himself within the amount granted for the establishment; and the warrant was never exceeded. It was issued when Lord Hardinge was Clerk of the Ordnance, and he made the arrangements upon which it was founded. It was considered then that the lowest scale was taken which could be safely adopted, having regard to the existing wants of the service. As the duties increased, and additional services were thrown upon the department, it might have been thought that it would probably be necessary to increase the establishment, and therefore to alter the warrant, but this had not been the case; the establishment had been kept within that compass, and, keeping within the sum thus settled, it was not necessary for the Master General to apply to any other authority in making appointments in the office. Of course it was a question whether that power was too extensive to place in the hands of any individual; but, for himself (Colonel Anson), in a case where a high officer like the Master General was placed at the head of a great department, and enjoyed the confidence of the Government, he should not have quarrelled with the placing such a power in his hands. At the same time, as the Committee thought it better that there should be a reference to the Treasury, he would be the last to object to that which was perhaps in principle the more correct course. The next recommendation related to the division of the Ordnance Office between the Tower and Pall Mall. The Committee stated that the distance between these two places rendered it difficult to obtain information as to current transactions, delayed business, and seriously interfered with the prompt discharge of official duties; and that a project for increasing the accommodation in Pall Mall, and bringing there the clerks employed in the office at the Tower, had been frequently under consideration, and that it was said the necessary alterations could be effected for 15,500 l They added, that the present system occasioned a great loss of time to the clerks, inconvenience to the members of the board, and consequent disadvantage to the public. This point had been attended to. Application had been made to the Government to sanction an alteration in the premises at Pall Mall; and he (Colonel Anson) thought it would be advantageous in every respect. The separation of the office had been most inconvenient, particularly in the business

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of a department having such complicated concerns to conduct. The Committee lastly commended to the attention of the Government the constitution of the department. They very wisely abstained from recommending what should be done, and left it to the Executive Government, the proper persons, to carry out the alterations requisite for remedying the defects that appeared to exist, and improving the arrangements. These matters would be much better understood by those belonging to the department than even by gentlemen who had given so much time and trouble to the subject in Committee upstairs. Now, the next vote was one that was rather alarming to look at, when persons were not acquainted with the Ordnance establishment; it was Vote No. 5, for "establishments in the united kingdom and colonies, salaries, allowances, and contingencies," amounting this year to 303,286 l., but last year (1849–50) to 315,373 l. But let the year before be also looked to, for these reductions had been going on for these two years; the reduction, as compared with 1848–9, amounted to 19,381. The reductions for 1850–51, as compared with 1849–50, were these:—in Ordnance establishments at home, 2,436 l.; abroad, 2,352 l.; barrack establishments at home, 4,855 l.; pay of clerks of works, 2,289 l.; in barrack estsblishments abroad there was an increase of 385 l.—reducing the total reduction to 11,547 l. It might be asked why there should be this increase abroad; but there was a very large reduction in this item in the previous year—11,312 l.; and, taking the two years together, there could hardly be fault found upon this item. The Committee considered this vote and the next—for wages—conjointly. Their attention was drawn particularly to the establishments at Woolwich employed in the manufacture of articles required for Ordnance service. The reasons for the increase in the expense of those establishments in the last few years were fully stated in the report, and it would not be necessary to recount them. Gentlemen who read the report would see the reasons. In the laboratory, the carriage department, and the inspector of artillery department, it had been necessary' to add largely to the number of artificers and labourers to meet the demands of the service; but very little addition had been made to the charge for superintendence. It was impossible to speak too highly of
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the indefatigable exertions of the officers at the heads of these departments. The new armament for the Navy, the improved description of guns and carriages, and the demands made upon the laboratory, sufficiently accounted for increase here. In the storekeeper's department at Woolwich, there was, however, a decrease of about 2,000 l., notwithstanding the increase of work. The Committee in their report recommended that some of the establishments in the smaller colonies in the West Indies and Canada should be dispensed with, and stated that they were of opinion that in Canada, with the present improved means of communication by steam and railroads, the concentration of stores at a smaller number of stations might be sufficient for the supply of the force to be maintained there. This subject had been very closely considered, and various reductions had been made, in accordance with the wish of the Committee. In looking through the list of the establishments, Gentlemen would see that there was a reduction at home (Marchwood), and in Canada, in the instance of Isle-aux-Noix, the Ottawa Canal, and Toronto. There had also been some alterations in regard to the storekeepers and the deputies; some of the deputy storekeepers—about seven—had been reduced in the course of the year. In 1848–9 there were 40 storekeepers and deputy storekeepers at home, and 55 abroad; in 1850–51 the numbers were 36 and 51. In 1835–6 they were 39 and 46. The salaries had not increased: the 87 now cost 32,003 l.; the salaries in 1835–6 were 31,015 l.; in 1848–9, 34,790 l. In 1835–6 there were 104 barrack-masters in the united kingdom; in 1850, 93. The salaries of the barrack-masters, sergeants, and labourers, amounted to 25,125 l. in 1835–6; to 24,572 l. in 1850. In the bar-rack establishments in the colonies there had been an increase since 1835 both in numbers and expense; but no one could be much surprised at that, considering what possessions had been added to this country. The barrack-masters were now 43: they were 38 in 1835. With respect to barrack establishments, various reductions had been made, and others were in progress. It had been urged, that while our barracks had been increased, there had not been a corresponding diminution of the number of buildings hired for temporary use; but the Government had given its best consideration to this matter, and there were now six or seven barracks in the northern district

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which would be given up as soon as the troops had been removed from thorn, and, therefore, there would be a diminution next year. In conclusion, upon this vote, he had to state, that every establishment at home or abroad had been required to send in an accurate report of its state, that it might be seen whether the numbers employed there were necessary; and those reports were submitted to the authorities here, and brought under the notice of the Board of Ordnance, and the Master General would dispense with those that did not appear necessary. The next vote was for Wages, 129,003 l.; in 1849–50 it was 141,330 l. A diminution arose thus:—in wages in Ordnance establishments in the united kingdom, 9,455 l.; in vessels and hoys, 551 l.; in wages in the establishments in the colonies, 1,883 l.; in fire-masters, &c., 2,321 l. But the previous year must not be forgotten. In 1848–9 the vote was 158,567 l.; compared with that, the diminution was 29,501 l. The Select Committee recommended that the number of artificers and workmen in the manufacturing departments at Woolwich and elsewhere should be fixed according to the wants of the service in time of peace, and that no addition should be made without the written sanction of the Treasury. This had been attended to. Returns had been called for from all the establishments to show their extent and amount of duty; this was all under the consideration of the Ordnance authorities; and when they had fixed the amount required to be kept up, the whole would be submitted to the Treasury for their sanction. This had been done already in a great many instances at home. Some of the departments at Woolwich had been thus revised. In future no increase would be made in any of these departments without the sanction of the Government. The next vote was for Ordnance stores for land and sea service, 211,631 l.; in 1848–50 it was 323,418 l. The decrease arose in the following items:—for small arms, 30,000 l. less than last year; iron ordnance, &c., 18,560 l.; stores of every description, 58,327 l.; purchase, &c., of stores on the spot, 1,500 l.; materials for packing, &c., 3,000 l.; repair of Ordnance vessels, &c., 400 l. In 1848–9 the vote was 502,585 l.—more by 290,954 l. than for 1850–51. The Committee recommended greater detail with regard to these stores in the estimates; and it was shown now what was necessary for the stores for the different
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departments at Woolwich and at the Tower. At the Tower there were required 28,783 l.; at Woolwich, in the carriage department 21,987 l., laboratory 20,899 l., storekeeper's department 15,660 l. There was one omission, which could be rectified in a future estimate; it was desired that the item of timber should be specified. A very small sum being required for it this year, 6,000 l. or 7,000 l., it had been put under the head of "Miscellaneous Stores." The Committee recommended that the quantity of stores to be kept in hand should be made to approximate more nearly to the wants of the service in time of peace. Every exertion had been made by the department to arrive at a definite conclusion and proportion. In August instructions were sent to every establishment to make returns of the state of their stores, distinguishing serviceable, unserviceable, and obsolete, and the returns had been received from the home stations, and some of the foreign. They would be considered in the first instance by the principal storekeeper, who would report to the Master General, and the Master General would give instructions to the establishments abroad as to the disposal of their stores. Much of these was obsolete, and there was a difficulty in getting rid of obsolete stores. It was a question whether it was better to get rid of them at what was no price at all, or retain them in case they should be wanted. It was unadvisable to keep a larger supply of stores than was really required; but to determine to sell obsolete stores on the spot, or send them home, would involve a heavy sacrifice or a very great expense. He did not believe those stores that were obsolete or unserviceable would produce a twentieth part of their original cost. It might be said that was the fault of the authorities for having kept them so long; but it should not be forgotten that we had been threatened with war at various times during the last few years, or that there had been, at least, a probability of our being involved in war, and, under such circumstances, we had been obliged to send our stores, in order that we might not be unprepared for it. In a case of that kind, when the alarm proved unfounded, it still remained a question whether it was more desirable to send those stores back, at a great expense to the country, or to retain thorn abroad. When the returns had been completed, and an accurate account of stores was in the hands of the Government, they would decide on the

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proportion necessary to be kept at each station; and if there was any surplus of serviceable stores, to determine whether they should be removed to other stations, or immediately issued for consumption, while those that were obsolete would be disposed of as soon as possible. It would be observed that the amount demanded for small arms was not large. With respect to that subject it was one of very great importance, which would require the most anxious consideration. It was hardly necessary for him to inform the House that the country had been at a great expense in perfecting that branch of our military equipments, and that our Army had been provided with percussion arms at a large outlay, while we had a certain number of the same description of arms not in service. We had not so many in store, certainly, as we ought to have, because, in his opinion, once the description of arms was decided on, we should never be without a quantity available on extraordinary occasions. Circumstances had, however, arisen which made it necessary to withhold the completion of the supply of arms at present, and not to carry it out as rapidly as had been originally contemplated. Among those circumstances the principal was that there were certain improvements made on the Continent in the manufacture of fire-arms, which would, it was stated, give foreign troops an advantage over ours. For him-self, he confessed he was a little sceptical on that point; but it was one which ought to be maturely considered, and they proposed that the different inventions in and various descriptions of small arms abroad should be brought over to this country, and should be examined and tested together, in order to arrive at a most important conclusion, and decide whether we were behindhand with other countries with regard to the description of arms in the hands of our forces, or were able to compete with them on equal terms if ever we had the misfortune to be brought into collision with them. The next vote was the sum of 440,064 l for works, buildings, and repairs. It was a most important vote, and one on which some hon. Members were very apt to form opinions without perhaps paying to it that deep consideration and attention it required. The vote for last year had been 486,536 l., which, compared with the demand for the present year, showed a reduction of 46, 472 l. Under the head of new works at home the demand was 52,497 l. less than in 1849. For new works abroad the sum required
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was 25,703 l. less—total reduction on vote for works, 78,200 l. Under the head of repairs there was an increase at home of 35,090 l., while the repairs abroad showed a decrease of 3,362 l., leaving an actual increase under this head of 31,728 l., which, deducted from the amount of decrease on new works stated before, left a total reduction of 46,472 l. For the year 1848 the vote was 617,482 l., so that there was a diminution for 1860–51 as compared with 1848–9 of 117,418 l. The whole of this vote had been most carefully considered by the Master General of the Ordnance and by Her Majesty's Government; and, though large in amount, the House would see how small a sum was asked for new works, such as fortifications, &c., either at home or abroad. That reduction was, however, attributable to the large amount that had been spent on those works in previous years. It was needless for him now to point out to how low a state—he might say, indeed, to what a state of degradation—our-works of defence had fallen till within the last few years, and in what condition the means we possessed of protecting our shores from aggression and insult were in 1835. It was enough to say they were totally inadequate for the purpose. They remained nearly in the same state till 1845, and were in the very lowest possible condition in that year. But, in the meantime, that state of things had not escaped the observation of those who turned their attention to our relations with foreign Powers, and many hon. Gentlemen found fault with the Government for not providing more effectually for the defence of the country. In 1845 the aspect of affairs became threatening—the few fortifications we had to rely upon were dismantled, dilapidated, and decayed. If a squadron of steamers had chosen to make their way to any of our principal naval stations, either Portsmouth, Plymouth, or Pembroke, or up the Thames, they were completely open to attack, and an enemy might have committed any act of aggression he pleased—there was nothing to prevent his vessels coming up the Thames and insulting Her Majesty in the very heart of her dominions. These considerations pressed themselves so seriously, at the time, that the attention of the right hon. Member for Tamworth and the existing Government were called to it, and they at once set to work to remedy this neglect. They proposed that a sum of money should be set apart to improve our defences, and their example had been

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followed by the present Government to a very considerable extent. The result was, that much had been accomplished during those four years, and he was happy to say the country might be proud of it. At Portsmouth the sea defences had been completed, and made very powerful; at Plymouth they were equally complete; and he believed great improvements bad taken place at Sheerness, and in the defences of the Thames. They had commenced similar works at Pembroke, which was one of the finest dockyards and harbours in the world, and he was sure the House would be prepared to meet any reasonable demand upon them for its defence. It was impossible to say what might come to pass in a few years, and though the expense might appear to be large now, when the House considered the ultimate advantage to the country from the state and the feeling of security against aggression, they would, he was certain, agree with him that it far outbalanced any temporary inconvenience from the grant of so much money. The recommendations of the Committee on this vote were principally directed to the proper consideration of all expenses to be incurred for works before they were undertaken. He certainly agreed with them in that recommendation, and also was of opinion that the number of years each work would take should be ascertained as well. The great fault they had committed was in commencing works without knowing when they would be finished; but at the same time he thought it would be found on inquiry that very little ill-advised outlay of money had taken place. If they looked to the expenditure on civil buildings, it would be found to have been much more lavish and not half so well considered; and though the officers who had the management of military works had been blamed for extravagance, he ventured to say their estimates had been less often exceeded than those of any civil engineer in the country. The Committee were quite right in recommending that Government should always give official sanction before any outlay took place, as well as in their remarks on the necessity of fixed plans and detailed estimates. The works at Corfu and the Ionian Islands generally, at the Mauritius and Bermuda, had been well considered by Government with respect to Corfu, no sum would be taken this year for new works, and the only demand that would be made was for a sum to complete the bomb-proof barracks within the citadel,
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which was shown in the paper before the House. In the case of the Mauritius, the only sum asked for was to complete Port George, which was situated at the entrance of the harbour, and which would be finished at a small expense. Without pretending to attach any great importance to his opinion, he would be ashamed of the House if they did not vote a liberal sum of money for the defence of that possession. It was one of the most important of our distant dependencies, and there was evidence to show that during the last war prizes had been taken into the Mauritius of the value of between 7,000,000 l. and 8,000,000 l. sterling. The Committee had recommended that the works at Bermuda should be postponed, and that Government should reconsider the question and the plans submitted to them. Those plans had been, in fact, already decided upon; but in consequence of the system to which he had adverted, of extending the expenditure over a long period of years, a delay had occurred in carrying them into effect, and the Government, in pursuance of the recommendation of the Committee, had abstained from taking any vote for works of defence, and only asked for a sum to complete the naval storehouses, which could not be dispensed with at such a large naval station. The total amount required was about 12,000 l of which 3,000 l. would be taken this year, and such further sums as might be required until a strict examination into the state of the works had been completed. The next vote was for what was called the scientific branch of the Ordnance Department, in which there would be found an increase on the vote for last year of 3,945 l., the vote for 1850–51 being 98,804 l., the vote for 1849–50 having been 94,859 l. The cause of this increase was the larger amount required for the surveys. Of late years Government had taken annually a vote of 60,000 l. for surveys; but, in consequence of the report of the Committee that the engraving of the maps of large towns should be accelerated as quickly as possible, it was resolved to ask for an increase of 5,000 l. on that account. There was a large accumulation of surveys in the department, but they had not force enough to engrave them, and on that ground they asked for 2,000 l. more than usual for the completion and publication of the Grand Trigonometrical Survey of Great Britain and Ireland, and the Ordnance Survey Levels. They would be engraved on a scale of five feet to the mile,

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and would be valuable for many purposes of great importance. For instance, all sanitary improvements might be carried forward with the aid of these large maps. It was hoped the publication of the surveys and plans would afford valuable information and assistance to the public, and recompense them for the sums expended on the work, to which the House would not object. Fault had been found with the progress of the survey in Scotland, and complaints had been several times made of the slowness as well as of the mode in which it was carried on. A strong recommendation had been received from the county of Edinburgh that the survey should be proceeded with there instead of at Wigtonshire, upon which it was intended to act forthwith, and to proceed with the survey as rapidly as possible. The estimate for the Royal Military Academy was less than the vote for 1849–50, including a decrease principally of 1,770 l. on the amount for the junior establishment at Carshalton. There was a small increase on some of the charges for the establishment at Chatham, though, on the whole vote, a trifling reduction was effected as compared with the vote for last year. The next vote was the sum of 177,536 l. for Ordnance non-effective services, military and civil, on which there was an increase of 5,877 l. over the vote of last year. That increase chiefly arose from superannuation allowances in the civil departments. A reduction of 546 l. took place on the amount for retired and unattached general officers, compassionate allowances, and officers recorded as set off against the retired (full and half-pay), director and deputy-inspector of general medical department, and widows' pensions, &c. In addition to this, 126 persons had been pensioned since the last estimates; but all the charges of that nature were strictly in accordance with the regulations of the House of Commons, and no one was allowed to retire but in accordance with those rules. So that the sums might be looked on as a fixed charge. All claims were submitted to the Treasury, and the Lords decided upon them, and fixed the amount of pension as they thought fit. Having gone through all the votes in such detail as appeared to be necessary, and having considered in each case the recommendations of the Committee, he thought the House, with the report before them, and the evidence in their hands, would be fully competent to acquire all the information they might desire
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on those various and complicated subjects. He was sure that those who best understood the condition of the Ordnance Department would agree with him that it was no easy task for any person to make himself thoroughly acquainted with all its details; he had taken all the pains he possibly could to make himself master of the whole of the subject, but he doubted not that an individual Member applying his mind to one item exclusively might attain to such a perfect knowledge of that as to place those who endeavoured to grasp the whole at a comparative disadvantage; but he assured the House that he had spared no pains to make himself master of every important fact or principle relating to the department. On the grounds, then, which he had stated, he asked the House to consent to the vote that he now proposed to put into the Chairman's hands. He did not ask them to consent to that vote solely on the ground that there was a difference in favour of the present year amounting to 198,000 l. This reduction, as compared with the last year, was striking, but he did not on that account alone call upon them to agree to his Motion. He asked them to do so because the whole of the Ordnance Estimates had received the close attention of the Government, and because they had been fixed as low as the efficiency of the service would permit; everything had been done that was practicable in preparing those Estimates, to inspire confidence in the country; to satisfy the country that the best possible use was made of the money collected from the public, and that the Government had anxiously, maturely, and carefully considered the whole of those Estimates. He should conclude by moving that the number of men for the Ordnance be 14,569, including officers, noncommissioned officers, and men, of the several Ordnance corps and departments to be maintained for service at home and abroad.
MR. HUMEsaid, he was not going to occupy the time of the House at any length. He wished to do the gallant Officer who had just sat down the justice to say, that on the Committee which had sat upwards of four months, the hon. and gallant Gentleman had devoted his whole attention to the subject before them, and had done everything in his power to lead the inquiry to a satisfactory result. The House would recollect that the Ordnance department were called upon by the Army and Navy to provide certain stores which they had to furnish,

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and that they were, therefore, to a certain extent, executive officers. The real responsibility, therefore, rested with Her Majesty's Government, and with the military and naval authorities. The House had unequivocally decided on supporting the military establishments to the full extent, and they could not, therefore, refuse the stores necessary for it. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had spoken of the reductions made within the last two years; but he wished to know why the comparison was never carried back more than a couple of years? During the last eight years they had strained every resource of the country, in order to keep up an establishment far greater than ever had been kept up in ordinary time of peace before. Taking the artillery force alone, he found that in 1792 they had but 4,486 men; in 1828 they had but 8,682 men; and yet they were now called upon to vote upwards of 14,000 men. He wished to know why that vast force was now wanting? In 1792 the whole Ordnance expense for men was 151,000 l.; in 1828 it was 471,000 l; and this year it was 711,000 l. They had now twelve battalions, though they never before had more than ten battalions in this force. It was for the country to decide—and in his opinion the country would decide before long—what was the proper amount to be expended for this service. For five successive years the Ordnance Estimates did not exceed 1,150,000 l. In 1845 they reached 2,100,000 l. and this year they were 2,600,000 l. When the hon. and gallant Gentleman spoke of the necessity of keeping up stores for 185,000 men, after thirty years of peace, he regarded it as a sarcasm on civilisation. It would appear that in direct proportion as the country became more civilised they were to increase their war establishments. He would recommend hon. Members to read the evidence given before the Committee by Captain Hastings, of the panic the Ministry laboured under in 1844, lest some foreign fleet should attack our shores. And the same fear, absurd as it was, was actually put before them again this evening; for the gallant Officer talked of a foreign fleet invading this country at any time, unless our harbours were put in a state of defence. But what was to become of our fleet all the time? or could any fleet be got ready in a foreign country, and invade these shores, without our receiving any notice of it whatever? These were altogether erroneous views which were
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I taken by the Government, and against them he felt called upon to enter his protest. He would not follow the matter further; but he put it to the House whether the Ordnance Office ought, not be altogether abolished—whether its miltary department ought not to be transferred to the control of the Commander-in-chief, while what properly related to the Ordnance would become a mere store departpartment, at a considerable reduction of expense? There was in existence the report of a Committee, of which five of the present Cabinet Ministers were members, recommending such a change in the government of the Army; but up to this hour the question had been evaded. He trusted, however, that the Committee now sitting would come to some decision on the subject, He was ready to admit, however, that the hon. and gallant Officer had made a very candid statement; but the reductions he announced were so trifling that he could not accept them as reductions at all, most of what had been done in this way being mere postponements of expense. No doubt there had also been the reduction of a few storekeepers; but he hoped the gallant Officer would adopt there commendation of the Committee, and appoint some of the half-pay artillery officers to be barrack-masters and holders of other civil offices, which would effect a great reduction of expense. But the great reduction he contemplated was the reduction of the Ordnance establishments. At present these establishments were studded all over England. Now that stores could be conveyed by means of railways to the most distant parts of England in the course of twenty-four hours, he did not see the use of maintaining so many establishments, which in fact deprived the country of all benefit to be derived from the introduction of steam. He had always had an idea that there was some mystery connected with the Ordnance departments, and that none but Ordnance officers could understand them; but he had certainly been disabused of that idea, for he found on inquiry that there was not a single artillery officer at the board—they were all cavalry or infantry officers, which showed that there was no peculiar difficulty in the management of the office, and that no harm could arise from its amalgamation with the office of the Commander-in-chief. As long as the House sanctioned these expenses, however, they would go on; but the day of reckoning must come, and therefore it was that he was anxious to see the

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constitution of the House altered, for he was satisfied that, as at present constituted, they were quite inadequate to control the expenditure. This very evening he might, if he had chosen, have counted the House out four or five times. He was glad to see that the hon. and gallant Member for Lincoln retained his place throughout the evening. The hon. and gallant Member occupied two benches, and there was another Member asleep on the front brench; and that for a considerable time represented the whole attendance on the opposite benches. Financial reform boards were now forming all over the country, and yet this was the indifference with which the House of Commons regarded questions of voting away money. With this state of things, he thought it was ludicrous in the highest degree to talk of the House of Commons being a check upon the public expenditure. He protested against the whole system; he did not blame the officers; he believed they were very good men for carrying out details; but it was the system which was bad. He did not intend to move any reduction upon this vote, though, as he had shown, the artillerymen had been increased in the course of a few years from 8,000 to 14,000 men. He Was aware of the importance of this arm of the service; but he was quite willing to add to the strength of the artillery if the Government would reduce the infantry force, and let the artillery men do garrison duty. But what he complained of was, that the artillery was nearly doubled, while the other arms of the service were also increased. He would further state his opinion, that the Ordnance ought to dispense with its manufactories; that it ought to contract for every thing it wanted, with the exception, perhaps, of gunpowder. At any rate, he thought they ought to dispense with some hundreds of establishments, with their complement of storekeepers and other officers, accumulating stores in one year to be sold a few years afterwards at a great loss.
COLONEL CHATTERTONsaid: I have very great pleasure in hearing my hon. and gallant Friend so ably propose the Estimates entrusted to his charge; and I am happy in giving them my entire support; so far from thinking our force of artillery too large, I am quite disposed to vote for its increase. In all our warlike affairs we have been sadly deficient in that most valuable and important branch—Artillery—
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for, with the exception of the last brilliant affair of my noble Friend at Goojerat, the want of artillery has been greatly felt. That engagement was essentially an artillery one; and, as far as my experience goes, I am decidedly of opinion it is both humane and merciful to have an overwhelming force of artillery in the field, as an engagement with the effective assistance of this powerful arm is much sooner decided, and with much less loss of life than where that force is weak and insufficient.
Vote agreed to, as were the following votes:—(2.) 652,755 l., Pay and Allowances, Ordnance Military Corps. (3.) 173,837 l. Commissariat.
On Vote 4, for 66,961 l., to complete the sum necessary to defray the expense of the Ordnance Office,
MR. HUMEasked whether, if the military department was transferred, as it ought to be, to the Horse Guards, any man in his senses would give 66,000 l. to keep up an office only necessary for the control of the stores?
COLONEL ANSONdid not wish to trouble the House again, but really his hon. Friend made such extraordinary statements that he could not allow them to pass. The hon. Member told them that the mastery of the Ordnance details was an easy business; but he could only say that he never knew any one who had attended to them so long as the hon. Member, and who knew so little. It was impossible to allow the House to be misled into the opinion that the Ordnance Office was upheld for no other purpose than the superintendence of the stores. There were a great many duties to be performed; and he did not believe there was any other department of the Government where so much business was done. He should like very much if the hon. Member would come and sit in his office for a couple of days, when he would find that he would be required to go through as many figures daily as he was crammed with for a supply night. With regard to the amalgamation of the office with the Horse Guards, that was a question that would come before the Committee now sitting on the Army; and though the hon. Member has shown that his mind was made up on the question, yet he (Colonel Anson) would not give any opinion till he had heard the evidence, further than this, that if they broke up the establishment, he did not know whether they could conduct the business with the same facility as at present; but he was

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certain that it would be at an increased expense. His hon. Friend had quoted the Ordnance for 1835 at 1,100,000 l. That was a mistake; the Ordnance expenditure for the year being 1,497,000 l., the difference between which and the present year was, therefore, only 930,000 l. With regard to the propriety of appointing artillerymen to be storekeepers, the hoard would be ready to do so if it were practicable; but in truth very few of them were so competent for the duty as those who had been brought up to the store department from an early period. Besides, as most of the storekeepers entered the service very young, at a small pay, but with the prospect of an increase as they remained in the service, he thought it would be to destroy all their fair and reasonable prospects if they were now to appoint artillery officers to those places which they had been led to believe would be given to them.
MR. HUMEsaid, the matter might, perhaps, be difficult of proof; but he would venture this observation, that if the military and store departments were separated, as in the Bengal army, the business would be efficiently done at one-fourth of the expense, and without that waste of stores which was continually occurring now. He also defended his statement of the Ordnance expenditure in 1835, which he said he had taken from a return ordered by Mr. Baring, and signed "J. Parker."
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that return was incorrect.
Vote agreed to.
On Vote 5, that 243,826 l. be granted to complete the sum necessary for defraying establishments at home and abroad,
MR. COBDENsaid, they had at homo and abroad eighty Ordnance establishments, with storekeepers, deputy storekeepers, clerks, and all the other officers necessary in an establishment for keeping stores. Now, that was one of the points to which the Committee drew the attention of the Government in expectation of a considerable reduction being made in the number of these establishments. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had told them that there was a reduction of four establishments; but he thought the Committee looked to see a great deal more done. Harwich, he observed, was still retained; but Harwich was pointed out by the Committee as an establishment that might be dispensed with; and with the present facilities for travelling, more es-
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tablishments ought to be shut up, and their expense saved. Abroad, there were forty-seven of these establishments. He thought that the same rule which applied to England ought to apply to the colonies, and probably to a still larger extent. He found that there were in Canada seven Ordnance establishments, keeping half a million worth of stores—many of them of a very perishable nature—and yet some of these stores had been there for half a century. If he went to the West Indies, he found every little island there strewed with cannon, shot, shell, and all the paraphernalia of the Ordnance. Now he had been informed, on the authority of parties who had recently visited the West Indies, that this system might be changed with advantage, even to the efficiency of the service. Before the introduction of steam navigation, there was a difficulty in communicating between the Windward and Leeward Islands at certain seasons of the year, a voyage between them occupying sometimes twenty days, but now they might be reached in twenty-four hours, or forty-eight at the utmost; and he had been told, and he had no doubt correctly, that they were still keeping up an establishment on every small island with from forty to fifty artillerymen. He had been told that their services might be dispensed with to the advantage of the service, and without inconvenience to any one. He hoped the hon. and gallant Gentleman would not think he had carried out the recommendations of the Committee by reducing the establishments—if he came before them next year with a reduction of twelve or twenty more, he would still find that he had left something to do.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, he did not mean it to be understood that the reductions were completed, but time must be allowed for making the necessary inquiries into the case of each establishment.
MR. HUMEasked if the establishment had been reduced in Australia, as the troops had been reduced there?
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that provision was making for its reduction.
COLONEL CHATTERTONsaid: I perceive amongst other items "stores damaged or deficient by troops, 8,775 l." I should wish to know is this a credit for what has been called usually barrack damages. [Colonel ANSON: Yes.] I beg, then, to call attention to this most iniquitous plan of barrack damages; nothing more requires attention and alteration. It

47
is, indeed, disgraceful to see how soldiers are mulcted and cheated under this head. Is it expected that barracks are to be occupied for years without requiring repairs? It is quite abominable to see how this system is carried on. Every month the barrackmaster, attended by a long suite of officials, clerks, sergeants, contractors for repairs, makes his inspection; every nail-hole in wood-work or plaster is carefully noted down by these contractors; every spot or stain on floor, table, or wall, is eagerly pointed out by these prying personages; for the more abstracted from the soldier, the more the contractor gains. The charges of 2d. per nail-hole, 6d. or 1s. for stains or ink-spots—for all the soldiers pays at a rate perhaps of 1,000 per cent above the value; for, in many instances, a stroke of a whitewash brush, of the value perhaps of a thousandth part of a farthing, will erase a damage of contractor valuation of a shilling or two. If a bolt or screw-nut is lost in the stable by the uneasiness of a horse, and cannot be found in the litter, the soldier of course pays for it. In vain commanding officers endeavour to save their men from such impositions—in vain he remonstrates; he gets no redress; he entails a month's correspondence upon himself; a board, perhaps, is ordered to assemble to investigate the case, but who can they examine but the very men who have made the charges?—and whatever those opinions may be, they of course corroborate the injustice; for if ever convinced they are wrong, for consistency sake they will hold to their original opinions. Another fraudulent system is the repair of glass, and it forms a most serious monthly charge against the soldier. The lowest tender for its supply is taken, and the most inferior thin glass is supplied: consequently, if ever the door is closed with violence, panes are invariably broken, and of course the soldier is again mulcted. I also perceive in the same column, "Washing sheets, paid for by the troops 10,044 l." Now here, Sir, is more cheating. It is well known the contract for washing these is from ¾d. to 1d. per pair: why should the soldier pay more? he is charged 2d. But, Sir, it is only a continuance of a system against the whole of which I most strongly protest—a system founded upon fraud and injustice, by which the soldier is cheated and defrauded out of his hard-earned pittance in a most shameful and scandalous manner.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that the lan-
48
guage of his hon. and gallant Friend was rather strong; but the fact was he spoke professionally as the commanding officer of a regiment, and gentlemen acting in such capacities were often biassed. But the public wanted protection in those matters, and laxity could not be allowed. If those small damages were overlooked on account of their individual smallness, the consequence would be an aggregate of expense to the nation, which would bring down his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to complain of their gross neglect. It was a subject, however, that should be closely looked into.
COLONEL CHATTERTON: I have spoken strongly, for I strongly feel this crying injustice; and I would beg to say if my gallant Friend or any Member of the House imagines I have spoken too strongly in reprobation of this matter, I request they will move for copies of the correspondence which has taken place between the authorities and myself, upon my regiment leaving Edinburgh in the year 1846, when the system I complain of was in full activity. Before I leave this branch of the Estimates, I would beg to ask if any steps have been taken for erecting buildings in barracks for the convenience of married soldiers? It is really subversive of all the rules of decency or morality for married soldiers to occupy the same rooms with the bachelor soldiers. But I do not see any item in these estimates to provide for a requirement so essential.
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, that this had been under the consideration of Government, and that last year 4,000 l. had been voted for separate accommodation for married soldiers.
COLONEL CHATTERTON: I am very glad of this assurance. There is one more item to which I beg to call attention—namely, "coals and candles in barracks in Great Britain and Ireland, 74,968 l." Now, of this even the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose cannot complain, formed as it is upon such a wretched parsimonious plan. Will the House believe that the allowance for a soldier in barracks of coals is about forty ounces per week; of candles—which are of a most wretched description, at eight to the pound, the contract price being about 4¾d. per pound—half a pound per week for eight soldiers, or perhaps about an inch and a quarter per week for each man; of wood, three quarters of an ounce per week per man? Of course, all this is totally inadequate to their

49
wants; and again, the system of the soldier paying is resorted to. I have felt it my duty, anxious as I am for the welfare and protection of our gallant Army, to state these facts to the House, and to call my hon. and gallant Friend's attention to them, should he again have to lay the Ordnance Estimates next year before the. House; and I hope and trust my recommendation which I have ventured to offer may not altogether be forgotten by him.
MR. HUMEasked if any arrangements had been made with regard to the payment by the colonies of the expense of barrack accommodation to be hereafter provided for the troops?
COLONEL ANSONreminded the hon. Gentleman that he had already stated that such an arrangement had been made with regard to Australia. After the 1st of October next those expenses would be paid by the colony.
MR. COBDENcalled attention to the following passage in the report of last year's Committee on the Ordnance Estimates:—
"The largo and increasing amount required for barrack accommodation in the colonies induced your Committee to request Earl Grey, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, to afford some information as to the practicability of any future reduction under this head. His Lordship stated that, in his opinion, the colonies ought to contribute more than they have done to the expense of lodging the troops, and since he had been in office he had never lost sight of the importance of gradually obtaining from the colonies contributions towards defraying this expenditure; with this view he had now proposed that in Australia the whole charge of the barracks should be transferred to the colony."
This had been done, it appeared, in Australia. He wished to know whether Earl Grey's attention had been directed to the same subject in the other colonies?
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that that was obviously a question which it was not for him to answer. As Earl Grey had stated it to be his intention to apply the rule to the other colonies, no doubt it would be done.
Vote agreed to.
On Vote 6, for 79,003 l. to complete the sum necessary for the payment of Wages of artificers, labourers, and others employed in the several establishments at home and abroad,
MR. HUMEsaid, that that vote involved the whole principle of manufactures, of which he had so often found occasion before to complain. It had been decided in 1828 that no manufactured arti-
50
cle that could be supplied to the Government by contract should be manufactured by the Government.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that that rule had not been deviated from wherever it was possible to observe it. The articles supplied to the Government from Woolwich and other places were only those that could not be depended upon if supplied by ordinary manufactures.
MR. COBDENsaid, he had paid particular attention to that point in the Committee last Session, and he was convinced that the parties examined could give no very clear idea of what was the cost of the articles manufactured. For instance, in the manufactory of gunpowder, they kept a large stock of saltpetre and of sulphur, enough for twenty or thirty years' consumption; they had a large establishment of blasting machinery, a number of dwelling-houses for the superintendents and cottages for the workpeople; but all that capital was put down as nothing. They simply took the wages and the cost of the raw material, put the amount of the two as the expense of manufacturing the article, and then compared that with the cost of what they purchased from private individuals, who were in the habit of putting down all their capital, fixed and floating, as entering into the cost of their manufactures. He did not think the evidence given was worth one straw; and he did not believe that anything made in the department might not be purchased cheaper of the manufacturers. He did not include gun carriages, because they were merely an adaptation of articles which they had in the yard; but he believed that gunpowder and brass ordnance might be bought cheaper.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that three-fourths of all the gunpowder was supplied by contract, but as to the brass guns the hon. Gentleman was very much mistaken. They required to be made of a mixed metal, which could not be depended on unless great care were taken in the fusion and amalgamation. They could not entrust their manufacture to other than their own hands.
Vote agreed to.
On Vote 7, for 111,631 l. to complete the sum required for Ordnance stores for land and sea service.
MR. HUMEobjected that 90,000 l. were set down for new small arras.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that they must have a store of muskets besides what were actually in the hands of the troops. They

51
used to have a reserve of 200,000 muskets, but they had nothing like so many now.
MR. HUMEsaid, that many of the old stock had become useless as being obsolete. There were daily improvements being-made in small arms, and he feared they were now making a store which would be declared obsolete in a few years.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that they were always liable to that chance; but it was in common with other nations. They should keep up a sufficient store of good arms.
MR. HUMEasked how much saltpetre they had in store?
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that 4,000 tons used to be the regular store, but they would now have not more than 3,500 tons. He thought it better to keep it in a refined than a rough state.
MR. HUMEwished to know how many years' supply that was; for, so long as they held India, they need keep no great stock.
COLONEL ANSONreplied, about five years' consumption. But as to India supplying a store when wanted, they would find, if an emergency arose, that the price would be doubled, or more, upon them.
MR. HUMEsaid, the keeping of a stock wasted more than what the difference in price would be. Those stocks were a monstrous source of loss. They had been obliged to throw aside as useless no less than 24,000 iron guns.
Vote agreed to, as was Vote 8 for 290,064 l. to complete the sum necessary to defray the expense of works, buildings, and repairs.
On Vote 9, 78,804 l. to complete the sum required to defray the expenses of the scientific branch of the Ordnance department,
MR. WYLDwished to know whether any, and if any, what proportion of the expenses incurred by the survey of the metropolis had been paid as yet by the ratepayers of the city of London?
COLONEL ANSONrather thought that none had been repaid as yet. When any would be paid it would be paid into the Exchequer, and appropriated in aid.
MR. J. E. DENISONobjected to the expenses incurred by the Irish Ordnance Survey. The first estimate of the expense of the survey of Ireland was 30,000 l. It turned out to be 120,000 l. The whole survey, and the cost of maps was then said to be likely to amount to 300,000 l. But
52
the expense already incurred had amounted to no less than 758,000 l. for surveys and maps. The survey was pretty nearly completed, except some levels and lines of elevation, but it was estimated that the completion would cost 120,000 l. more. He wished to know what was the decision of his hon. and gallant Friend and of the Government with regard to this expense?
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that the additional expense was occasioned by the map of Ireland being under revision. The system of contouring was found to be much superior to the system of hill sketching, and the whole survey was being now revised upon the plan of the field survey, it having been completed upon what was called the townland survey. Those additional expenses might seem inexpedient, but they were as necessary as outlays upon new guns and changes in the form of arms, which they had been shortly before discussing. They had begun the English survey upon the scale of one inch to a mile, but they had subsequently altered it to a scale of six inches, as far more useful for the large towns. The maps of the largo towns were being engraved, as the survey was being completed. The townspeople were anxious to have the maps, and were applying for them in order to carry out the more perfectly their sanitary improvements.
MR. J. E. DENISONsaid, that if the House thought fit to lay out the sum of 120,000 l. for contouring, of course it could do so. But the maps having been already completed, the addition seemed an entirely unnecessary expense.
SIR H. VERNEYthought the contouring most important. Had there been maps completed in such a manner when all the railways that now intersected the country were projected, it would have saved the outlay of millions of money in surveys.
Captain BOLDEROrecommended the adoption of a unform national scale for these surveys.
Vote agreed to, as was Vote 10 for 137,536 l. for the non-effective Ordnance service.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
On Vote 11, Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a sum, not exceeding 137,100 l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the salaries of the officers and the contingent expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1851."
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, he had given notice of his intention to call the attention of the Committee to this Vote. He had to propose a reduction of the present establishment of the Admiralty, particularly as regarded the number and salaries of the Lords. The right hon. Baronet opposite held the office of First Lord with a salary of 4,500 l. a year, to say nothing of other advantages, such as a largo house in a dry, airy, and wholesome situation, rent free, with coals and candles. He thought the right hon. Gentleman might maintain the dignity of his office on a much smaller sum, and he should therefore propose to reduce it by 1,500 l. Three Lords had a salary of 1,000 l. each. He proposed to strike off 200 l. from each, leaving their salaries 800 l. instead of 1,000 l. "The other two Lords had salaries of 1,200 l. each. These he proposed to reduce by 200 l. leaving for each of these two Lords a salary of 1,000 l. a year. He proposed, that instead of six Lords of the Admiralty they should have but four—too many cooks spoiled the broth. He thought four Lords would do very well. If, after that reduction, they found that the service was not performed in the manner in which he would wish to see it performed, he had no objection to pop on another. Now, what he proposed to do was to reduce the whole expenditure of that particular branch from 9,900 l. to 5,800 l., making a saving to the public of 4,100 l. per annum. He would be guided by the Chairman as to the manner in which he would take the sense of the Committee on the question. He was not aware whether it was the regular mode of proceeding to take the proposition first in that form, and reduce the Vote for the Admiralty by the amount he had stated.
The CHAIRMANsuggested that the amount proposed to be reduced on the entire vote would be the regular course. The diminution in the larger sum would be first put.
COLONEL SIBTHORP, in accordance with that suggestion, begged to propose that the salaries of the secretaries and principal officers be reduced as follows:—The first Secretary from 2,00 l. to 1,500 l.; the second Secretary from 1,500 l. to 1,000 l.; the Surveyor of the Navy, from 1,000 l. to 800 l.; the Accountant General from 1,000 l. to 800 l.; the Storekeeper General, from 1,000 l. to 800 l.; the Comptroller of Victualling and Transports, from 1,000 l. to 800 l.; the salary of the Director General of the Medical Department, and the
54
Comptroller of Steam Machinery, ought also to be reduced; these, with other reductions which he intended to propose, would amount to 7,100 l.
Afterwards, Motion made, and Question put—
"That a sum, not exceeding 135,100 l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the salaries of the officers and the contingent expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1851."
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, that if he rightly understood the hon. and gallant Gentleman, what he proposed was to reduce the salaries of the Lords of the Admiralty, and also of the staff of the Admiralty—of those gentlemen whose offices were not political, but who were, in fact, merely the head clerks of departments. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also proposed to reduce the number of Lords of the Admiralty from six to either four or five.
COLONEL SIBTHORPbegged to ex-plain. He did not wish to touch the salaries of clerks at all. They were the working men. It was the officials who were only nominally clerks, head clerks, superior clerks, gentlemen clerks, in fact, whose salaries he thought ought to be reduced.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, that the difference was only in the application of a term; for the parties referred to were the heads of the department at Somerset House. There were two or three points in reference to the hon. and gallant Member's proposition to which he would address himself. And, first, with respect to those Parliamentary officers belonging to the department, he would only say, that after the notice given by his noble Friend at the head of the Government, that that matter would be submitted for the consideration of a Committee of the House, on which occasion the question of their salaries could be finally entered upon, he (Sir F. Baring) thought it would not be expedient to anticipate the decision of that Committee. He did not conceive it fair, however, that the hon. and gallant Member should confine the vigour of his attacks exclusively to the Admiralty, and that he had permitted the Ordnance Estimates to pass without making any similar remarks upon the system of that department. But all these matters would be considered by the Committee to be appointed to inquire into them. With regard to the other officers, he thought his noble Friend had acted

55
wisely in leaving them to the discretion of the parties themselves more immediately concerned in the discharge of their duties. It was to be considered what was a fair remuneration to be paid for their services. He could assure the hon. and gallant Member, however, that he formed an erroneous estimate of the duties to be performed by those officers to whom he had alluded, for they were most responsible and onerous. With respect to the Accountant General, he had been upwards of fifty years in the service, and was a most valuable, laborious, and useful public officer; yet the hon. and gallant Member, who professed his anxiety not to touch one sixpence of the salaries of those who were hardworking officers, proposed to make a reduction in the emoluments of one who had risen by his own merit and long standing to the station which he now occupied. He trusted, therefore, the House would not indulge the hon. and gallant Member in that respect at all events, but would rather take into consideration the long and faithful services of the individual alluded to. If a reduction were to be made, it should come into effect hereafter, and not commence in the way proposed with those who have lived so long in the service. But such reductions as were proposed might not he as economical as was supposed. Parties might resign who would be entitled to re-tiring pensions in proportion to their salaries; so that if new appointments took place, and retiring pensions were to be paid, the expense would necessarily be increased. The hon. and gallant Member proposed a saving of 100 l a year on the 600 l. or 700 l. of the office of comptroller of steam machinery; now he (Sir F. Baring) contemplated cutting off that post altogether, and thereby save the entire amount of the salary. The hon. and gallant Member thought that a much fewer number of Lords of the Admiralty could do the business to be performed. Now, he (Sir P. Baring) would be glad to see the number reduced if it were conducive to the public service; but he considered that in case of war we could not do with our present staff. It was, in fact, not a war, but, strictly speaking, a peace establishment. Now, how had the business of the Admiralty been managed in 1821? There had been seven Lords of the Admimiralty, eighteen commissioners, and nine secretaries, to perform the duty for the first six years after the war. In 1829 there had been five Lords, sixteen commissioners,
56
and four secretaries; and at pro-sent there were six Lords, two secretaries, and five other officers, who held permanent not political situations. The expenses of the Admiralty were for the three periods just named as follows:—

In 1821

…

…

£39,000

In 1829

…

…

32,000

At present, only

…

…

18,000

And this great reduction since 1821 had been made notwithstanding a great increase in the business to be done by that department. He did not think, therefore, the House had any reason to complain of the want of work to be done by the board. There was a large mass of detailed business to be superintended by the respective Lords; and, for his part, he did not think it would be good for the public service to reduce their number. If they did so, other parties should be got to perform the duties which now devolved upon the Lords of the Admiralty. He believed the present arrangement had been made by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon in 1833—that it had worked well, and therefore he trusted the Committee would not agree to the proposition made for reducing their number.
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, the House had been reminded that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had proposed a Committee. If the noble Lord would assure him that that Committee should be appointed, he would leave his proposal to its decision; but the case reminded him of the words, Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.
MR. FITZROYsaid, if the hon. and gallant Member had confined his proposition to a reduction of the number of the Lords of the Admiralty, he might not have made any observations on the question; but when it was proposed to cut down the salaries of two secretaries to the extent of 500 l. a year; and still further, when it was proposed to reduce the salaries of the Accountant General, the Storekeeper, and other officers, he could not consent to such a proposition, having had some personal experience of the admirable manner in which the duties, particularly that of the Accountant General, who had been 54 years in the service, were performed; and that public servant had an enormous staff of clerks under his charge; and when the immense extent of the accounts of the Navy was considered, it could not be thought that he was over paid. With respect to the salary of Surveyor of the Navy, as that was a new appointment, he

57
thought that 1,000 l. per annum was sufficient. On the subject of the number of the Lords of the Admiralty, he considered the service of one might be easily dispensed with. He knew that there was an immense quantity of work to be done, but all the duty to be performed was not done. In fact, a great deal was scarcely done at all. Too much was left to be done by the permanent officers. He did believe, however, that all the business to be transacted at the Admiralty might be done by one Lord less than the present number. However, as the noble Lord at the head of the Government had promised to appoint a Committee on that subject, he (Mr. Fitzroy) should feel great delicacy in voting with the hon. and gallant Member, if he pressed his Motion to a division.
MR. ARKWRIGHTwas of opinion that much unnecessary expense was incurred by the tours of inspection that were periodically made by the Lords of the Admiralty. Shortly after the prorogation of Parliament in August last the Board were at Plymouth, and he found it stated that the first Lord examined a bakehouse, and that in the evening he honoured the table of the admiral superintendent with his presence. On another day, it appeared, the Lords embarked in the Lightning steamer, under salutes from the Impregnable and the Dragon, and proceeded to the Queen, which they closely inspected. It was, he believed, well known that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord was no sailor. He believed that these tours of inspection were merely an excuse for very jovial parties. The next party, consisting, amongst others, of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, proceeded on an excursion to one of the scats of Lord Edgecomb, and made most important inspections there, no doubt. On the 21st the Black Eagle arrived at Portsmouth, and waited for the First Lord. They then went to Pembroke, and no doubt walked through the dockyard, and dined with the superintendent. On the 28th of August he found them at Portsmouth, when salutes of the flag ship announced their arrival. In short, the movements of the Board became so hacknied, that the reporter said that it was high time that the chronicling of dining should give place to the more sensible chronicling of business. On the 31st of August, the Admiralty were employed a day in inspecting the Excellent, where a few friends were entertained, and this might be con-
58
sidered as the close of the tour. Instead of the Board of Admiralty going down and making this fuss, if one or two of their Lordships went down to make these inspections without giving notice, there would be a great saving in time and expense, and a smaller number of Lords might perform the duties. On these grounds, if the hon. and gallant Colonel took the sense of the House as to the reduction of the Lords' salaries, he should certainly support him.
MR. HUMEquite agreed to the reduction of 7,100 l., and thought it much better to leave the salaries to be apportioned, He should be sorry to make a reduction in the salary of the Director General of the Medical Department, because there was not a more important office connected with the Navy.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that the hon. and gallant Colonel had fallen into an error with respect to the Committee for which he was about to move. The Committee would certainly inquire as to the salaries of the First Lord of the Admiralty and the other Lords, Members of Parliament; but it would not inquire, with regard to the salaries of the Accountant General or the other permanent officers of the department. He thought the heads of departments much better able to make reductions from time to time than any Committee that could be selected. For instance, if they took the case of the comptroller of steam machinery. It would be difficult for any Committee to determine whether this office were necessary or not; but his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, with the necessary information at command, had found the office to be superfluous, and had accordingly abolished it. With respect to officers of departments, he likewise thought the Government better able to judge of them than any Committee could be. The vacancy caused by the death of Mr. Brooks-bank had not been filled up, nor would it he, as the Government were of opinion that the business could be got through without.
COLONEL SIBTHORPwas satisfied with the assurance of the noble Lord that the Committee were to investigate the subject of the salaries and numbers of those composing the Admiralty.
LORD J. RUSSELLrepeated, that although the Committee might include the Lords of the Admiralty in their investigation, they would not inquire as to the salaries

59
of the Accountant General and other officers.
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, that under such circumstances he should press his proposition to a division.
MR. DISRAELIsaid, that if it could be proved that, consistently with the efficient discharge of the public service, reductions could be made in the amount of official salaries, no doubt that was a fair subject to be investigated by a Committee. But if the definition given by the noble Lord as to the functions of the proposed Committee were the correct one—if their investigations were to be confined to Parliamentary, judicial, and diplomatic salaries—he (Mr. Disraeli) thought the Government ought to have been prepared with a measure on the subject which should state the grounds for those reductions which the Government admitted were necessary. When the noble Lord on Friday moved for this Committee, he (Mr. Disraeli), in moving his Amendment, should be prepared to show why he thought the noble Lord's proposal impolitic and inexpedient.
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, after what had fallen from the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, he was willing to press only that part of his Amendment which referred to the reduction of the number of the Lords of the Admiralty to four.
SIR F. T. BARINGexplained, with respect to the establishment, that there had been ten vacancies of extra clerks, which it was not intended to fill up. With regard to the visits of inspection to the dockyards, so far from thinking them a waste of time, he considered it would be more advantageous for the service if these visits could be more frequently made.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 33; Noes 110: Majority 77.

List of the AYES.

Archdall, Capt. M.

Lennard, T. B.

Blewitt, R. J.

Lushington, C.

Broadley, H.

Meagher, T.

Chatterton, Col.

Masterman, J.

Clifford, H. M.

Moffatt, G.

Cobden, R.

Mullings, J. R.

Dick, Q.

O'Brien, Sir L.

Duncan, G.

Pilkington, J.

Ellis, J.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Greene, J.

Rufford, F.

Hall, Sir B.

Salwey, Col.

Halsey, T. P.

Scholefield, W.

Henry, A.

Smith, J. B.

Hornby, J.

Stuart, Lord D.

Hume, J.

Turner, G. J.

Kershaw, J.

TELLERS.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Sibthorp, Col.

Knox, Col.

Arkwright, G.

Original Question put, and agreed to.
On Vote 12, for 9,772 l. for the General Registry and Record Office for Seamen.
Agreed to.
On Vote 13, for 49,703 l. for defraying salaries connected with the scientific department of the Navy.
MR. HUMEcomplained of the high price at which the Nautical Almanack (for which 3,400 l. was paid by the public) was published. It was a work of reference that every ship leaving England ought to have on board; but the price put it out of the reach of many captains. He wished to know if all the nautical surveys made under the order of the Government had been brought to a conclusion, and wished to know if Admiral Beaufort's maps were to be brought within the reach of the public generally in point of price? Seeing the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade in his place, he wished to ask him what was the result of an inquiry which had been made last year in the Baltic, in reference to a vessel of very considerable value that had run on a shoal at a place where there was no shoal marked in the map? The Government had sent a very able naval officer to ascertain how the accident had happened, and he wished to know the result. If he were correctly informed, the captain on board the vessel had no notice of the shoal, the map being incorrect, though the proper Admiralty map did give it.
MR. LABOUCHEREcould not immediately call to mind the facts of that case, but he was ready to admit that in many instances their merchant vessels were very inadequately provided with maps.
MR. HUMEsaid, the question was whether, without trenching on the private property of map makers, some means could be taken, whereby persons having maps should produce them to the hydrographer, by whom, if correct, they would be stamped.
SIR F. BARINGwas understood to say that the matter would receive attention.
MR. HUMEbegged also to call attention to a speech made by Captain Ross, at the Geographical Society, at Bombay, in which he stated that three ships of war had been lost, in consequence of not having proper maps on hoard. It appeared that the scales drawn for the East India Company and for the Government were different, and that no trouble had been taken to bring them together, or to make the surveys of India valuable. They knew the East India Company at great expense had

61
surveys made, but unfortunately they had not the charts all engraved, and it became a matter of consequence that it should be carried out by the Company or by the Government.
MR. WYLDthought it was a matter of much importance to the merchant service that the charts should be speedily produced. They were now covering the seas of the world with their steam-ships, and therefore the production of the charts was more necessary. In slow-sailing vessels they could ascertain the depth of water, but with the swift sailing of the steam vessels that could not be so easily done, and accidents were more likely to happen. He hoped, with the improvements now taking place, the right hon. Gentleman would take into serious consideration the necessity of making one uniform scale, and publishing the charts, that they might be made available for the general merchant service. He would also call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the surveys of the Eastern seas, and hoped, as it was intended to extend their steam navigation to that part of the world, the Government would pay attention to them.
SIR F. T. BARINGassured the hon. Member that no one was more anxious than himself to give efficiency to the map department of the Admiralty. The delay he believed arose from the great care and attention paid by the Government officer to those charts. He should be very glad to do all in his power to expedite the publication of the charts, and any suggestion which the hon. Member could offer to further this end would be willingly attended to.
Vote agreed to; as were Votes—
(14.) 135,826 l., Establishments at Home.
(15.) 23,713 l., Establishments Abroad.
On Vote 16, Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a sum, not exceeding 689,971 l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge of Wages to Artificers, Labourers, and others, employed in Her Majesty's Naval Establishments at Home, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1851."
MR. HUMEsaid, that the Committee upstairs had pointed attention to the enormous increase of those establishments beyond any possible want of the service. When the expenses were considered, they ought to produce twice as many ships as were required, and, consequently, there was a large portion of labour wasted, and he thought that was unsatisfactory, particularly
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at a time when they had so many ships lying by rotting. He regretted that he had not got the return for which he moved of the number of ships that were built and were rotting, never having gone to sea. For a number of years they lay by, and yet they were building more ships of the same class, and wasting materials.
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYunderstood that it had been the practice in the dockyard to charge the repairs of one ship to another. For instance, suppose repairs were to be made in the Vanguard, the Brilliant, and other ships, when the repairs for any vessel amounted to a large sum, it was the practice to carry the repairs of one ship to another; so it was impossible to ascertain the expense of any given ship. He wished to know whether it was in the power of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty to give the account for the repairs of a particular ship—take, for instance, the Vanguard. The question was of importance, for the practice would lead to a fraudulent system of accounts.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, it was in the power of the Admiralty to give the information with respect to any individual ship, but the hon. Member must not ask for the expenditure under this head of every ship in the Navy. He was not aware that the practice alluded to existed in any of the dockyards, and certainly any officer who should be found guilty of such tricks, would, if continued in his situation, receive the severe censure of the Admiralty. The charge was rather a serious one; but, for himself, he could not give credence to any such supposition. In answer to the hon. Member for Montrose, he would observe, that this vote had been reduced 75,000 l. this year, in addition to a very large reduction last year, which he thought on the whole was not to be despised.
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had misunderstood him. He had made no charge against any individual. He believed that in former times such a practice existed, and he had asked whether it existed still.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, his only answer was, that he did not believe it to exist. What happened many years ago, the hon. Baronet might perhaps know, but unfortunately he did not.
MR. BUCKhoped the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Admiralty would answer the question of the hon. Gentleman

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the Member for Montrose, with respect to the return of the number of ships that had been built and were rotting, never having gone to sea.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, that the returns would be laid upon the table of the House as soon as they could be obtained.
MR. S. HERBERTsaid, that so long as it was necessary to keep up a peace establishment, and no war to call out the ships in reserve, there would of necessity be some ships which must rot without going to sea. The Admiralty might prevent this taking place by sending out every ship in its turn, instead of keeping the same ships at sea for a length of time; but in the end this would be found the more expensive method of the two. His impression was, that they did not let their ships rot half fast enough, and that a great deal too much expense was incurred in repairing ships which ought to be broken up. The number of years which the ships were kept up in the Navy was far greater than was considered at Lloyd's to be the proper term for any ship in class A 1, which was the state in which the Admiralty professed to keep all their ships of war.
ADMIRAL BOWLESbelieved that too much money was expended in repairing an inferior class of ships, and thus keeping up the inferiority of our Navy.
MR. HUMEsaid, that during the last twenty years 229 ships had been broken up, one half of which were better than the new ones which had been built, for they had not been built by the Surveyor of the Navy. At present we had a fleet of 400 sail, and he saw no use in building 400 sail more until they were actually required. The number of ships which had been launched from Her Majesty's dockyards from the 31st of March, 1828, to the end of the year 1848, had been 264, with a burden of 220,404 tons, at a cost of not less than 4,840,000 l. From private yards, 44 ships had been launched with a tonnage of 19,000 tons, and at a cost of 328,000 l., making a total of 308 ships launched, with a burden of 239,000 tons, and built at a cost of 5,168,000 l. We had now more materials and more ships on hand than we could dispose of for the next 15 years. What necessity was there therefore for this shameful extravagance? It was enough to drive one almost mad to see such extravagance. According to a report made in 1848, there were then 59 ships lying rotting which had never been
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at sea, and yet new ships of the same class had been launched. In 1848 there were 443 vessels, of which 235 were in commission; and, on the 1st of April, 1849, there were in course of building 67 new ships, while of the 37 launched in 1828, not one had been to sea. It was a fact that 41 men would build a 74-gun ship in one year, and the number of men at present employed would, if properly employed, build the whole Navy in two or three years.
SIR. F. T. BARINGsaid, as the hon. Gentleman had given notice of a Motion to reduce the vote for stores, it would probably be better to defer any discussion upon the question of the Navy, generally, till then. He hoped the House would allow the two votes before it to pass, and he would go no further that night. But with regard to statements that had been made in that House and elsewhere, as to the number of ships broken up, and their state of efficiency, he wished to make one or two observations. The average age of ships that had been broken up was 37 years, so they certainly could not be considered very young. They had sold 18, the average age of which was 37 1–3 years. Of vessels taken from the enemy 24 had been broken up, whilst the average ago, since the date of their capture, was 26 years, and 26 ships had been sold, the average of which was 20 1–3 years. Now, with regard to the Canopus and Implacable, which had been so frequently cited as being better ships to repair than the new ones they were building, he wished to say, that beginning with the repairs of 1805, and ending with 1847, the cost of the Canopus's repairs was 135,293 l. The Implacable, captured at the same period, cost in repairs 109,912 l.; so that for the repairs of those two ships four new vessels might have been built, independently of the sums paid for their capture. Now, when it was stated that they ought not to break up or build new ships, he thought it necessary that that statement should be made. With regard to the number of ships built since 1828, he would ask the hon. Gentleman whether it was practicable to turn old sailing ships into new steam ships, and it should be borne in mind that a new element—that of steam, had been recently called into action in naval warfare. If the steamers were deducted, the numbers built would not appear at all large.
MR. HUMEsaid, that what he complained of was the waste which had taken

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place in endeavouring to convert old sailing ships into steam vessels. He wished to have a return of the number of vessels launched, distinguishing steamers from sailing vessels; and when that return was produced, he was sure that it would prove that there had been no occasion to lay out more than a million of money in this way, instead of the five millions and upwards which had been expended, He observed a charge of 10,000 l. for training and exercising the dockyard artificers, thereby spoiling good carpenters, and making bad soldiers. Instead of going about like plain workmen they were all cock-a-hoop, with their epaulettes and uniform, and as he thought this was of no use, he should take the sense of the Committee on that vote.
MR. FITZROYhad heard it stated on all sides that these men were now in a state of great efficiency, and he trusted that no such reduction would be made.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, that the hon. Member for Montrose must recollect, that when these artificers were called out, considerable alarm prevailed in the country. The expenditure occasioned by training them had at first been considerable, but it was now materially reduced. Now, that they were properly organised, a small sum of money would be sufficient to keep them in their present state of efficiency. Though we were at peace now, that might not always be the case, and we ought to be prepared for an emergency.
MR. THORNELYwished to know whether the old system of telegraphing was still resorted to, as there was an unsightly pole at the top of the Admiralty, which led him to infer that the electric telegraph was not always employed.
SIR F. T. BARINGreplied that the old system was done away with, and that the Admiralty were selling the old telegraphs as fast as they could.
After some further conversation,
The Committee divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 66: Majority 51.

List of the AYES.

Brotherton, J.

Pilkington, J.

Duncan, G.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Ellis, J.

Salwey, Col.

Greene, J.

Smith, J. B.

Henry, A.

Stuart, Lord D.

Kershaw, J.

Thompson, Col.

King, Hon. P. J. L.

TELLERS.

Lennard, T. B.

Hume, J.

Mullings, J. H.

Cobden, R.

Original Question put, and agreed to; as was Vote 17: 36,985 l., Wages, Artificers abroad.
House resumed.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Committee to sit again on Wednesday.

STAMP DUTIES BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. HAYTERhoped the House would consent to his proposal, that this Bill should be read a second time and committed pro formâ, so that he might have an opportunity of introducing a number of Amendments into it. When this was done, the Bill should be reprinted.
MR. MULLINGSobserved that this Bill proposed to make a vast variety of alterations. They had been told that the Bill would make a considerable reduction in the stamp duties; but he was satisfied that it would lead to a great increase. He was satisfied, instead of its leading to a reduction of 300,000 l. in the revenue of the stamps, it would produce an increase of a million.
MR. HAYTERshould be happy to receive any suggestions from the hon. Gentleman as to what he considered the objectionable parts of the Bill, and he could as-as-sure him they should receive every attention.
MR. MOFFATTwished to know what was the nature of the Amendments which were now proposed. He thought it only reasonable that the House should have some explanation on the subject. One of the chief objections to the Bill was, that it proposed to place a stamp duty on many transactions where it had never been charged before.
MR. HAYTERsaid, it was intended by the general principle of the Bill not to touch any property but that which was now subject to a stamp duty.
Bill read, and committed 2°, for Tomorrow.
The House adjourned at One o'clock.