Commons Sitting of 27 July 1849

MINUTS.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Mercantile Marine. 3° Workhouse Loans (Ireland); Drainage of Lands; Admiralty Jurisdiction in the Colonies; slave Trade (Persian Gulf).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Baldock, from Shrewsbury, for the Marriages Bill.—By Lord J. Russell, from Merchants, &c., for promoting Steam Communication to the Australian Colonies.—By Mr. Ormsby Gore, from Sligo, for facilitating Emigration.—By Mr. Disraeli, from Uxbridge, for Repeal of the Duty on Attorneys' Certificates; also from the Montgomeryshire Farmers' Club, for Agricultural Relief; and from the Amersham Union, for a Superannuation Fund for Poor Law Officers.—By Mr. Bouverie, from North Uist, for Redress.—By Sir Ralph Lopes, from Clyst Honiton, respecting the Appropriation of the Educational Grant.—By Mr. Spooner, from Sunderland, for an Alteration of the Merchant Seamen's Fund Act.—By Lord Dudley Stuart, from Kentish Town, complaining of the Impurity of the Water supplied to that District.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Ashton, against the Mines and Collieries Bill.—By Admiral Dundas, from Deptford, for an Alteration of the Poor Law.—By Mr. Ellis, from Leicester, for the Protection of Women Bill.—By Sir D. Dundas, from Kirkwall, against the public Health (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. Newdegate, from the Holbeach Union, for an Alteration of the Sale of Beer Act.—By Viscount Palmerston, from Jamaica, for the Suppression of the Slave Trade; and from the Tiverton Union, for an Alteration of the Small Debts Act.

SLAVE TRADE (PERSIAN GULF) BILL.
Order for Third Reading, read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
MR. C. ANSTEYstated it to have been his intention to have offered some opposition to the principle of this Bill on the second reading; but in consequence of the absence of the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, he had postponed doing so. He believed Bills of this description were productive of a great deal of mischief. He had various and well-grounded objections to treaties of this kind, as he felt they had been productive of injury to the cause of humanity, and the slave trade had increased in consequence of them, and in spite of them. He contended, moreover, that this was not a time to increase the naval expenditure of the country, unless in cases in which the honour and dignity of

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the country were materially concerned, but certainly not for the purpose of carrying out treaties of this kind, if treaties they were. He understood that the annual expense of the vessels upon the coast of Africa was 400,000 l, and that since the period when the bounty system began, no less a sum than 161,861 l. had been expended. The Bill of the Government would increase this expenditure, for it would be necessary to have a squadron in the Persian Gulf as we had on the coast of Africa, and there would be a further charge upon the Consolidated Fund for the bounty on captures. In that point of view, therefore, he considered the Bill of the noble Lord very objectionable. Another objection was this. The Bill recited certain agreements or engagements entered into by a gentleman residing by the Persian Gulf, and who was said to be accredited to the Schah of Persia, with chiefs whose territories bordered on those seas, and which agreements were similar to that which existed between this country and the Schah. He was sorry that any such agreement existed, for it would be better for both Persia and England if there were none. However, if the Bill passed, our courts of justice would have the power of dealing with the vessels and with the liberties of the subjects of those chiefs mentioned in the preamble of the Bill, whose territories lay upon the Persian Gulf, and who were in close connexion with the Schah, and probably owed him allegiance. The operation of the Bill would, therefore, lead to difficulties with the Schah, and would revive much of the ill blood which existed a few years ago. Moreover, it would cause the withdrawal of our vessels of war from the protection of our commerce and the prevention of piracy, for which purposes they were already insufficient in force. He could not conceive what benefit was to result from our ships being empowered to search and make prizes of these wretched Arab vessels. The noble Lord proposed by his Bill, and by the instructions in his despatch to Colonel Shell, to make these engagements or agreements entered into with these petty chiefs applicable to all vessels bonâ fide Persian; and he asked the House to extend all the provisions of the Slave Trade Act to the seas of the Persian Gulf, and to bring" the Arab tribes and their provinces there within the operation of that law. He considered that this would be productive of the worst consequences, by embittering the feelings of all
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those tribes against us, and by inflicting an injury on our commerce, which was now on the increase on the shores of the Persian Gulf. Upon these grounds he objected to the Bill, and therefore moved that it be read a third time that day three months.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
SIR T. E. COLEBROOKEseconded the Amendment. He viewed this measure simply as an attempt to continue and extend those attempts to suppress the slave trade by force which a long experience had now proved to be abortive and futile. They were now about to apply a system which had already signally failed on the coast of Africa to Mussulman tribes, without the least reflection as to its total inapplicability to them, and the manifest difference in all their habits, customs, and feelings. This was the most idle and useless of all the attempts which had yet been made to suppress the slave traffic; and the only effect of it would be to imperil our commercial relations in the East. But besides the general objections on principle, there were particular objections applicable to that particular case. The reasons for putting down the slave trade had always been regarded as of an exceptional nature—we interfered only on account of the magnitude of the evil; and it had always been held that we should not interfere with a nation on this account except upon the strongest grounds of humanity. There were no such reasons in the case of the eastern nations, for slavery with them was a very different institution to the slavery in other nations, and had not those repulsive features. Would the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control say that the East India Company were in such a state that for a speculative object they were prepared to embark in increased expenditure? Or were the vessels now devoted to the suppression of piracy, and the protection of commerce, to be taken away for this new object? Considering that the whole question of the slave trade must come under the consideration of the House early next Session, upon the report of the Committee which had sat upon that subject, he protested against embarking upon this vain and idle attempt.
COLONEL THOMPSONsaid, he could throw light on some of the points brought forward by the Mover of the Amendment.

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There was nothing of novelty about the engagements alluded to in the present Bill; for the Treaty by which the slave trade in the Persian Gulf was declared piracy was made by the present General Sir W. Keir Grant on the 8th of January, 1820, and had the further peculiarity of being the first Public Act in which the slave trade was denominated piracy, as he knew from communication with the late Minister of the United States, Mr. Rush, who told him the American Act containing the same declaration, was dated in the May after, though from circumstances it was known in England first. The hon. and learned Mover of the Amendment might set his mind at rest on the subject of cruelty having been exercised towards the chiefs who were parties to the engagements named. He was personally acquainted with them all, except where a chief was dead, "and Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead." He would relate the circumstances attending the signing of the treaty of 1820. As he was directed, he collected on the floor of a tent the representatives of the tribes concerned in the treaty which was to put an end to the war. After discussing the other subjects satisfactorily, he represented to them, with some caution and circumlocution, that there was another point which the Government and people of England had greatly at heart; and, if the English had not shown themselves disposed to make a harsh use of such fortunes of war as had gone in their favour, he hoped they would have credit for not wishing to make any improper interference with the customs of the tribes, but merely to urge a point in which their own feelings were deeply concerned. The collected plenipotentiaries evinced great interest to know what was coming. When he announced the question, "Would they admit such an Article as one declaring the slave trade piracy?" a ghastly laugh ran round the circle of diplomatists, and they exclaimed with one voice, "Taïb, taïb kathîr!" " Good, very good! "A light opened upon the negotiator. There was a potentate, who had been the ally of the British against these tribes during the war, and the subjects of this potentate, and not the tribes, were the great carriers of slaves by sea. It was therefore matter of high mirth, to accede to a treaty which cut, not against themselves, but against their enemies. [Mr. ANSTEY: Who was the potentate?] The Imaum of Mascat. He hoped the hon. and learned Mover was relieved
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from anxiety on the point of cruelty. On the subject of expense, he saw no reason to suppose that the expense of anything was to be increased by the contents of the Bill. The whole affair had been going on successfully and quietly for twenty-seven years, and because it was found desirable to have further regulations laid down by law, this Bill appeared to have been introduced.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONwas not going to discuss with the hon. and learned Gentleman who made this Amendment, or with the hon. Baronet who seconded it, the abstract love of slavery which was too evident in the course of their speeches. He would not, moreover, discuss with the seconder of the proposition the amiable character of slavery in Mahomedan countries; but it must be borne in mind that a great part of the slaves who were the subjects of slave States on the eastern coast of Africa, were Christians, natives of Abyssinia, and therefore had, in a greater degree, the sympathy of the British public than the negroes on the west coast. But the practice of slavery, both on the west and east coast of Africa, was to this country matter of great interest, because that great continent, that might naturally offer an amazing field for European commerce, never could be opened to the commercial intercourse of this country so long as that abominable slave trade was carried on. It was doubted whether those chiefs were independent; but no doubt whatever could exist on the subject. They were perfectly independent—as much so as the Imaum of Mascat, or the Schah of Persia. The hon. and learned Gentleman wished that it should be set forth in the treaty with each, that he was independent; but such a thing was never found in any treaty whatever. Su far as the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman went, as to our getting into angry discussion with the Schah of Persia on this question, the answer was a plain one—that in the month of June last year the Schah issued a firman prohibiting the slave trade in the Persian Gulf, and, in the formality of the East declared that firman to be equal to a decree of fate. [Mr. ANSTEY: Why was a Bill not brought in upon that point?] It was not necessary in order to carry into effect the decree of the Schah of Persia, as it was in the case of the other chiefs. The chiefs bad granted the right of search; the Schah of Persia had not. But it was said they were engaged in a wild goose chase in endeavouring to persuade Mahomedan

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Powers to enter into Christian views of this subject, and that they were forgetting that the system of abolishing the slave trade was incompatible with all their feelings and prejudices. He would shortly state to the House what they had done in that respect. They had had the Imaum of Muscat, the Schah of Persia, and the Sultan, all yielding to their wishes by prohibiting the slave trade in the Persian Gulf; and last year they had the Sultan putting down the slave-market of Constantinople, and prohibiting his officers on the coast of Barbary from engaging in the slave trade. But the other day a British subject, a Maltese, was seized as a person employed in the slave trade, and taken to Tripoli, whence he was sent for trial to Malta, and the Sultan ordered a certain number of officers to go to Malta to be examined as witnesses, in order that the British Government might be able to convict the prisoner. So far, therefore, from their being hostility or persevering resistance on the part of these Mahomedan Powers, they had made great progress in bringing them to a proper state of feeling on this subject. It was said this measure was to be attended with great expense; but, in point of fact, it would cause no expense whatever—not an additional cockboat would be required for the duty. All that was asked was, that they should give power to those vessels that were there for the protection of trade and the prevention of piracy to execute the agreement that had been entered into with the Imaum of Muscat. This Act was establishing no new principle. It was simply carrying into effect previous agreements with independent chiefs. It would lead them into no conflict with those chiefs nor with any other Power in the Persian Gulf; and he thought no argument had been adduced to show that it should not be agreed to by that House.
MR. MILNER GIBSONwished to ask the noble Lord whether a better understanding was likely to be arrived at with the Emperor of Brazil on the subject of our attempts to suppress the slave trade. He was told that very great uneasiness existed as to the state of relations between England and Brazil, and that these relations had been disturbed by our slave-trade policy; but he must say that it appeared to him very strange that it should have been thought necessary at all to have entered into any treaties whatever with these different chiefs, if we had a right to seize
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ships carrying on the slave trade without treaty. He was told that we had that right with Brazil; without any treaty with the Brazils entitling us to capture their ships. Having assumed the right to capture and search their ships without treaty, it appeared questionable to have entered into these treaties with these chiefs, if the noble Lord had the power of doing all in the way of capture without any engagement. He had doubts whether the attempt to put down the slave trade by force of arms would ever succeed. He believed that the only way was enlisting opinion in those countries which carried on the slave trade. At all events to interfere with the independence of foreign nations would only have the effect of enlisting public opinion in those countries in a state of hostility, and would defeat the object which they had in view. He thought it was not right to throw out any kind of insinuation that a gentleman who differed on the policy of armed interference in putting down the slave trade, was favourable to carrying on the infamous taffic. The hon. Baronet who seconded the Motion was as much opposed to the slave trade, and thought it as abominable a traffic, as the noble Lord. All that he questioned was the policy of attempting to put down the slave trade without reference to the opinion of the countries which were carrying on the slave trade. We could not expect other countries to arrive at our opinions at any moment we might point out. Opinion was of slow growth. The anti-slave-trade party in Brazil had not been at work so long in that country as they had been in this to abolish the slave trade. They were longer in this country agitating against the slave trade than they had been in Brazil. Why should we expect the Brazilians to be faster than we were? Give these different nations every time for the formation of an opinion, and carry on a conciliatory and rational course of policy. He should support the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
CAPTAIN PECHELLwas sorry to differ from his right hon. Friend who had just spoken; but in all transactions connected with the suppression of the slave trade, he pinned his faith to the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whose conduct during the last fifteen years had been most straightforward and consistent in that matter. In his opinion a squadron would always be necessary for the suppression of the slave trade.
MR. J. O'CONNELLagreed with the right hon. Member for Manchester that all attempts hitherto made for the suppression of the slave trade had, to a great extent, failed; but he attributed that failure to certain concessions which had been made by the Government to hon. Members opposite. It would hardly mend the matter to make further concessions in the same direction, He greatly doubted whether the hon. and learned Member for Youghal truly represented the feeling of his constituents in opposing this Bill.
MR. EVELYN DENISONsaid, that a Committee had been sitting for two years to consider the best means of putting an end to the slave trade; and the Committee had reported "That the suppression of the slave trade by naval force was, in their opinion, impracticable." It was painful, no doubt, to confess failure in an object which the country had so much at heart; but that was the conclusion to which the Committee had arrived. On account of the lateness of the Session and other causes, the report of the Committee had not yet been brought officially under the notice of the House. He (Mr. E. Denison) had come to the same conclusion which had been arrived at by the majority of that Committee. It was a painful position to be placed in at the end of a Session of Parliament, to be asked to vote for a Bill to enable Her Majesty to carry into effect certain engagements or treaties in the Persian Gulf for the more effectual suppression, of the slave trade—the means to be taken for that purpose being the employment of a naval force—means which the Committee had come to the conclusion were entirely ineffectual. The noble Lord said that there would be no expense incurred; but he must doubt the correctness of that view, when he saw the provision made in Clauses 8 and 9 for bounty on captures and for indemnification. He had no alternative if there were a division than to vote against the Bill.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that as his hon. Friend who had just spoken had touched upon the general question of the suppression of the slave trade, he would address a very few words in answer to the objections he had urged. He (Lord J. Russell) did not consider that the passing of this Bill would at all commit the House in regard to any future conclusion to which they might arrive on the general question of the means to be adopted for the suppression of the slave trade. The conclusions
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in the report of the Committee, which had not yet been considered by the House, did not appear to him a good reason for the rejection of this Bill. He agreed with his hon. Friend that the evidence taken before the Committee, and the re-port of that Committee, must form the matter for the most serious consideration, both of the Government and of Parliament, in the course of the next Session; but when his hon. Friend referred to that report as being the opinion of the Committee, he must say that there were circumstances which appeared to add to the difficulty which the Government and Parliament would have to encounter in considering the subject. If the report had expressed the unanimous opinion of the Committee, or the opinion of the great majority of the Committee, the case would have been different. But it appeared that there had been a majority of one vote only, that of a Member who had taken the greatest possible interest in this question, but whose opinions upon it were known to be so decided that no one believed that any evidence that could be brought forward would have power to alter his conviction, that the present means taken for the suppression of the slave trade were inefficient and injurious. Therefore, that view being unsupported by the opinion of a majority of the Committee, it only amounted to an acknowledgment that the opinion of his hon. Friend, the Chairman, was as strong now as it had ever been. Another circumstance which increased the difficulty experienced on this subject, was the object for which the Committee was appointed, that being to consider the present means used for the suppression of the slave trade; and if they were deemed to be insufficient, to see whether means could be found better calculated to effect the object in view. Now, when he looked to the report of that Committee, he found opinions very positive with respect to the means at present in use, and very full on the point of their inefficiency; but when he looked further, expecting some consolation for the failure of the present means, in the suggestion of other means to be substituted, he found only a frequent repetition of opinion on a well-admitted fact, that the slave trade was a very bad thing, and ought to be put an end to. The question, therefore, really remained to be considered by Parliament in the course of another Session. It might be that the present means in use were inefficient, and did not answer their object;

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but it was for Parliament, before giving up these means, to discover others by which they might hope to succeed in utterly suppressing the slave trade.
MR. HUMEsaid, he wished to call the attention of the House to the fact, that the Committee, where these differences, it was true, existed, had yet decided by a majority against the policy pursued by the Government. But Government always took care, in the appointment of every Committee, to have a majority of the Members in favour of their own views, and hence the result at which this particular Committee arrived showed that the Government had been beaten. The Committee decided on two allegations—first, that our policy in regard to the slave trade, instead of doing good, aggravated its horrors; and, secondly, that it was a source of great expense to this country. Our exertions in those seas had increased the atrocities perpetrated on the slaves. They found now such cases occurring as 500 human beings crowded into a vessel of 100 tons; and as no such cases used to occur in former years, he thought they might fairly be attributed to our cruisers on the coast of Africa.
MR. BERNALwished to distinguish between the general question affecting the slave trade, and the question now before the House as regarded the slave trade in the Persian Gulf. The one stood on a very different basis from the other. He thought it would be very easy for us to close up the Persian Gulf with our marine, and so effectually put a stop to the slave trade; and therefore he considered the Bill, taken on its own merits, deserving of support. At the same time he did not feel himself precluded thereby from taking any course he thought proper on the general question when it came before them.
Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read 3° and passed.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Order for consideration of Lords' Amendments, read.
LORD J. RUSSELLrose and said: Mr. Speaker, before the House proceeds to take into consideration the proposals I have to make in regard to those important measures of which I have given notice, I should wish the House to have the benefit of a statement of your opinion with respect
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to the Amendments which the Lords have introduced into this Bill, in as far as they affect the privileges of this House. I will reserve what I have to say on the subject as affecting the several Amendments made by the Lords, and more especially in regard to the omission of Clauses 1 and 2, until the House shall have been favoured with your view on the question of privilege.
MR. SPEAKER: I know not how I can better answer the question put by the noble Lord than by stating to the House what is the rule which governs the practice of the House with reference to amendments made by the Lords in Bills of this description. The rule is this, that the Lords may amend Bills for the relief of the poor, if the amendment does not in any way amount to an interference with the disposition or collection of the rate to be levied, or with the persons who have the control or management of the rate. This rule has always been strictly adhered to with regard to all private Bills authorising the levying of local rates; but there have been some occasions with reference to public Bills in which the House of Commons has agreed to waive the point, and not insist on an adherence to its privileges. The precedents which have occurred in more recent years are those of the English Poor Law Bill of 1834, the Irish Poor Law Bill of 1833, the Irish Municipal Bill of the same year, and, lastly, the Irish Amended Poor Law Bill of 1847. It is quite obvious that a large number of the Amendments which have been made by the Lords in the present Bill, do most decidedly infringe upon the privileges of this House. The first two clauses of the Bill as it was sent up by this House, proposed a certain maximum amount of rate to be levied, first, upon the electoral divisions, and then upon the unions. By the omission of those two clauses, the Lords have increased the amount of the rates to be imposed; or at any rate have imposed a different amount of rate from that which the Bill, originally sent up to them by the Commons, had declared should be imposed. It will be for the House to say, whether they will follow the precedents in which I have alluded, and waive their privileges on this occasion; or whether they will maintain them. If the House should resolve to adhere to the latter alternative, the Lords' Amendments, of course, must be rejected.
LORD J. RUSSELL: After having had your opinion, Sir, as to the question of

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privileges, and as to what the House has done in similar instances on former occasions, I will now state the view which I take of this subject, and the mode in which I think it is expedient the House should act while taking into consideration these Amendments. I cannot for a moment differ, Sir, from your statement, that the omission of Clauses 1 and 2—to say nothing of any of the other Amendments—do infringe upon the privileges of this House, as has been most clearly laid down by you. At the same time, Sir, you have stated, both with respect to the English Poor Law and to the Irish Poor Law, that the House of Commons has so far waived its privileges as to allow amendments to be made by the Lords which certainly did infringe upon those privileges. With regard to the first Irish Poor Law Bill in 1838, one of the amendments made by the Lords was the introduction of electoral divisions. The effect of that amendment was, that instead of having an equal rate over the whole union, the rates in different parts of the union were exceedingly various in amount—some parties paying not leas than 10 s. in one part of the union, while others were paying only 6d. or 10 d. in another part of the union; thereby charging particular districts and particular persons—namely, the inhabitants of those districts—very variously, and imposing a greater rate of tax upon some parties than the House of Commons had originally agreed to. With respect to the last poor-law of 1847, hon. Members will recollect that that Bill as it passed this House imposed a rate of 1s. 3d. in the half-year, or 2s. 6d. in the year, upon the electoral division, leaving any remaining charges that might be incurred by the electoral division to be defrayed by the whole union. The House of Lords omitted that provision, and introduced other provisions of a totally different nature. In both these cases—as well that of the original Irish Poor Law of 1838, as of the amended Irish Poor Law of 1847—this House consented to discuss the amendments made by the Lords, and they finally consented to the adoption, in the first instance, of the Amendment which was introduced by the Lords; and, in the the second instance, to the omission which had been made by the Lords. In both those instances I imagine that the privileges of the House of Commons were as clearly and as positively affected by the alterations made by the House of Lords, as they are in the case now before us. I do
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not think, therefore, on the ground of precedent, that we should feel ourselves hound to assert the privileges of the House of Commons on the present occasion. That being so, it is for the House now to consider whether it is advisable with regard to these Amendments that we should assert those privileges. I own it appears to me that, so long as the House of Lords confine themselves to amending the poor-law, with a view to effect better legislation on the subject of a legal provision for the poor, and not for the sake of increasing the amount of rates, or with the especial view of imposing a tax upon the subject, it is not expedient that we should assert our privileges in that respect. With regard to legislation in reference to the condition of the poor, it must be acknowledged by all to be a subject of very great importance, and one concerning which both Houses of Parliament should be entitled to give an opinion. I think legislation is likely to proceed more harmoniously between the two Houses of Parliament if we do not assert our privileges on an occasion of that kind. If we were strictly to assert those privileges, I do not see how any progress could be made in amending the poor-law, either as regards this country or Ireland, because scarcely any amendment can be made by the Lords which would not affect the rate in some degree. For these reasons I shall propose to the House to consider the Amendments of the Lords without regard to the question as to the privileges of the House being in any way affected by them, and without deeming it necessary that those privileges should be asserted so far as the present Amendments are concerned. I believe that the Amendments have been introduced by the House of Lords with a view to amend, in their opinion, the law relating to the poor in Ireland. That, I conceive, to be a subject upon which they are fairly entitled to give an opinion, and respecting which they have a right to propose such amendments as they think would conduce to the better management of the poor in Ireland. Therefore, to bring the question to an issue, I now propose that the House agree to the Lords' Amendments, omitting Clauses 1 and 2 of the Commons' Bill.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Amendments be now read a Second Time."
SIR J. GRAHAM: Sir, I can assure the House, that, upon a question affecting the ancient and undoubted privileges of

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this representative assembly, I venture to differ with very great regret and diffidence from the noble Lord at the head of the Government. But entertaining, as I do, great doubts upon the matter, and cordially agreeing with you, Sir, in the desire that those ancient and undoubted privileges should be reasonably and justly maintained, I do not think I should discharge my duty if, before the House came to a decision, I failed to express what is my impression with regard to these Amendments. For the sake of discussing them in the most satisfactory manner, it is right to consider the constitutional question altogether apart from the merits of the alterations which the Lords have made in the Bill. But to prove to the House that I am not prejudiced in that respect, and that I am not actuated by a feeling hostile to these Amendments, I beg to remind the House that I, when the Bill was before this House, objected to the maximum clauses, and agreed in substance with the Amendments of the Lords. But to return to the great constitutional question involved in this matter, I will proceed to state what is the apprehension which now weighs upon my mind. I shall begin by adverting to that most important declaration from the Chair, that were it not for a few precedents of recent date, these alterations by the Lords which we are now considering, do interfere with the ancient and undoubted privileges of the Commons' House of Parliament. Without going back to antiquated cases, or referring to the authorities in the pages of Hatsell with regard to the unwritten law of Parliament, we have had it stated from the Chair, what none who make it their business to attend to these questions can doubt, that the privilege claimed by the Commons is this—that the Lords may amend any Bill except such clauses as relate to taxation, whether general or local; but with respect to those clauses the Lords cannot interfere, either with regard to the amount of the tax to be levied, or the mode of collecting the tax, or with respect to the persons who shall collect it, or the persons who shall pay the tax, or those who shall receive it. I do not think I have overstated in the least the privilege on which this House in the best times of its history has always insisted. We then come to the consideration of the recent relaxations to which the noble Lord has referred. They are both of recent date, and were limited, if my memory serves me correctly, to the question
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affecting the levying of poor-rates. The first case was one of considerable importance, but not of direct interference; it was that of the Irish Poor Law of 1838. Incidentally, there certainly was a great change introduced into that Bill on the part of the House of Lords. It chiefly concerned the area of taxation. The Bill, as sent up by the Commons, enacted that the rate should be levied in the unions. The Lords narrowed the area of taxation, and substituted for unions electoral divisions within the unions. Incidentally, therefore, the Lords, pro tanto, by narrowing the area, increased the burden upon the ratepayers living within the smaller districts. If I mistake not, a special memorandum was left with you by your predecesor, Sir, with a view to place on record a strong opinion that this was an interference which ought not to be drawn into a precedent. In the year 1847, again dealing with the Irish Poor Law, the same relaxation was made upon the precedent of 1838, and a more direct interference on the part of the House of Lords was submitted to by this House. Still, after giving the utmost effect to these precedents, I contend that the interference of the House of Lords on the present occasion goes infinitely farther than any precedent that has been quoted, or that can be produced. If we admit an interference of so extensive a nature with our privileges with respect to the subject of the poor-rate, the better and more consistent course on the part of this House would be to abandon its privileges directly and for ever, so far as poor-rates are concerned; for, should this interference be now allowed, I do not see how this House can ever hereafter stand up for its privileges, whatever may be the interference on the part of the House of Lords. Just observe—the first two clauses of the Bill which the Commons sent up to the Lords limited the rate at the maximum of 5s. on the electoral division; and the rate in aid, when that maximum should be exceeded, which was to be imposed on the union, was limited to 2s. So that in no case could the ratepayer in Ireland be compelled by force of law to pay more than 7s. in the pound in the year. Now, the Lords have struck out both those limitations, and have left the ratepayer liable to an unlimited amount of rate. The Commons said that the ratepayers should under no circumstances pay more than 7s., while the Lords say that

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no limits whatever shall be assigned. So much for the quantum of the rate. But that is not all. The Commons made fresh property subject to the rate; they charged jointures and annuities, as well as other property not now liable, with alleviating the burden on the present ratepayers. The Lords struck out that clause. Thus the Lords have left the present ratepayer liable to an unlimited charge, and, at the same time, have rejected the proposition for bringing in fresh property as the subject of rating, thereby indirectly aggravating the burden of the present charge. They have inserted a clause by which a tenant being in arrear for more than a year, and being unable to pay up his rates, shall be subject to ejectment. This is a clause of a most painful character, and will be viewed by the tenantry of Ireland with the utmost jealousy. The House of Lords have thus inflicted on the tenant a new penalty for nonpayment of the poor-rate, notwithstanding all the covenants and restrictions to which he is already subjected by his lease. But don't let me mislead the House on this point. I am aware that the noble Lord has given notice of his intention to reject that clause. Let us not confuse the question of the merits of these Amendments with the constitutional question which I am at present arguing. I am now fairly stating the extent of the interference of the Lords; and in arguing that question of interference, and in pointing out what are the clauses which affect the privileges of your House, it is necessary that the whole extent of that interference should be brought under your view. I have thus stated to the House what is the extent of that interference. It is for the House to consider, if we waive our privileges with respect to the poor-rate, how are we to take our stand with respect to other local rates? What are we to say with respect to the highway rates, with respect to the county rate, and another topic I will mention—what are we to say with respect to the church rate? May not the House of Lords, if we agree thus to abandon our privileges in respect to poor-rate, frame an enactment with regard to church rates, and send it down to the Commons? As matters now stand, that question is exciting very angry feelings in this country. What would be the only becoming course for this House in such a case to pursue? Our language to the House of Lords ought to be—"We take a preliminary objection to your proceeding; we say this is not your
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province; you have no right to deal à priori with this matter; we stand upon our privilege and reject your measure." But if for the sake of avoiding all angry feeling, we forego that preliminary question, and agree to debate the measure; or, if we give way, and abandon our privilege with respect to the poor-rate, I, for one, reserving my judgment to be corrected by superior information and better lights, am not prepared to say that we could make a stand, founded on reason and precedent, respecting any one of the local rates I have mentioned. But is this subject new to the House? Was not this very question, as to what extent we should waive our privileges in matters concerning local taxation, referred, at the instance of the Government, to a Select Committee in the course of last Session? I see many hon. Members on the opposite benches with whom I had the honour of being associated in that Committee. We investigated the matter with the greatest care, we deliberated upon it, and some very strong arguments were stated on both sides of the question; we went into the Committee predisposed, with a view of consulting the public convenience in regard to a more equal division of labour between the two Houses of Parliament, to recommend a large relaxation of our privileges, and thereby enable the House of Lords to initiate measures affecting local taxation. But after careful consideration, after consulting the highest authorities, and hearing the opinions of the most experienced Members, we came to an unanimous opinion that any such relaxation would be dangerous to our privileges. A very limited relaxation, however, was recommended, and that recommendation was embodied in a Standing Order, which was passed during the present Session. My hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford moved as an amendment to that limited Standing Order the following Resolution:—
"That, in order to facilitate the passing of Bills through Parliament, this House will not insist upon its privileges in respect of any Bills, Clauses, or Amendments which may be brought from the House of Lords whereby tolls, rates, or duties are authorised, imposed, or regulated, provided the same shall be assessed and levied by local authorities, and shall not be applied to the public service."
My hon. Friend thus recorded his opinion; but that opinion being opposed and contrary to the sense of the House, he did not venture to go to a division upon it, and

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it only stands on our journals as a record that this House deliberately adhered to the recommendation of the Committee, and rejected the extension of the privilege to the House of Lords, as proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford. Now, Sir, I must ask the House whether they think that this is the precise moment when, with a view to expediency, and to prevent the possibility of needless collision between the two branches of the Legislature, we should be called upon to consent to an enlargement of the powers of the other House of Parliament, or to make any abridgment of our own? I confess, looking at the temper of the times, and at the nature of the many questions pending, and which are likely to become hereafter the subjects of discussion, I am warned by the danger I foresee, and am disposed to take my stand on the safe and sure ground of the ancient and undoubted privileges of this House. I see no reason whatever for departing from them. Are the Amendments of so much importance, even if the considerations I have submitted to you are ill-founded or not of much weight—is there, I say, anything so attractive in the alterations made in the Bill as to induce us, in the case of difficulty, to depart from the exercise of our privileges? I must allude here to some other Amendments. I have only stated part of the interference of the House of Lords. We sent up the Bill with certain clauses, which appear to me of primary importance, giving a remedy in case of accumulated arrears against the corpus of the estate, and giving power to sell the estate in small portions, for the recovery of the arrears. All those clauses have been struck out by the House of Lords. Are the noble Lord and the Government so sure of their majority in the other House that if, on this occasion, we waive our privileges, with all the disadvantages of the waiver, they will be able to give effect to their views? Is it not possible that, after all, the Lords may insist upon their Amendments, and by succeeding in insisting on them place this House in the disadvantageous position, after having waived their privileges, of having lost the Bill, in the desire to obtain which they departed from the sure ground of standing upon their undoubted rights? I have really no personal feeling in this matter. In many of the alterations made by the Lords, I agree; but still, in a case of this kind, though I differ from the noble Lord with hesitation and doubt, because I am sure
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our objects are the same, namely, to uphold in a manner safe and reasonable, and with a view to the future security of the State, the privileges of this House, yet on a matter of this very great importance, and considering the juncture of affairs in which we are called upon to discuss and decide it, I feel that I should have failed in my duty to the House if, before the House came to a decision on it, I had not shortly, but as clearly as I could, stated the reasons why I am disposed, I will not say to resist the Motion of the noble Lord, but to beg of him and the House carefully to consider the question before they come to a final decision.
SIR G. GREY: Sir, there can be no doubt as to the importance of the question to which the right hon. Gentleman has called the attention of the House, with respect to the maintenance of the just and reasonable privileges which the House has always felt it to be its duty to maintain. Without entering at all into the merits of the particular Amendments made in the Bill by the other House, I wish to call the attention of the House to what I conceive to be an important distinction, which was lost sight of by the right hon. Gentleman, between the decision which the Committee upon Public Business came to with respect to the waiver of our privileges on questions relating to local rates, and the course which is proposed in this instance by my noble Friend. It was proposed to the Committee, and afterwards proposed to the House, that once for all we should agree, in all cases of local taxation, to waive the privileges of the House—to surrender those privileges, in fact, by a distinct resolution of the House, founded upon the recommendation of the Committee. I think the decision of this House, on the occasion in which this proposal was brought under their notice by the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford, was a sound and a wise decision, and that it would have been most unwise and impolitie to have surrendered altogether, by a single resolution, the right which we now maintain, to insist upon our privileges in any case in which we think the public interest demands that they should be insisted upon. The course now pursued by the noble Lord does not in the least degree bind us for the future. No doubt it would have this effect on our future course, that it would add one to the string of precedents with respect to poor-rates in which we have not thought it necessary to insist upon the ancient privileges

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of the House. The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken in stating that the first instance of our departing from the privileges of the House, was in the case of the Irish Poor Law of 1838. If I understood you right, Sir, I think you said that the first occasion with respect to poor-rates on which our privileges were not insisted upon was when your predecessor, Lord Canterbury, was in the chair, in the case of the English Poor Law of 1834, and that we followed the same course with regard to the original Irish Poor Law in 1838, and the Irish Municipal Bill of the same year, and again in 1847. The real question is whether, looking at these precedents, which are confined to municipal rating and poor-rates, we should now insist upon the privileges of the House by rejecting the consideration of the Lords' Amendments, and revert to the original practice of strictly insisting upon our privileges, even in cases where the subject of the imposition of poor-rates, the collection of the rates, the distribution of the rates, and the area of taxation are so mixed up with the general question of the poor-law, that we can hardly expect the assent of the House of Lords to anything relating to the poor-laws, either of England or Ireland, if we exclude them from the consideration of the questions which necessarily pervade any Bill of this kind, and which constitute the principal element of any change in the law. It is certainly a subject on which the House should act with great caution; but, looking to the course which has been hitherto pursued, and to the necessary connexion of those parts of the Bill which you have said fall within the rule of our privileges with the general question of the poor-law, I submit that we ought not, irrespective of the merits of the Amendments, to refuse to entertain the consideration of the Amendments. I said I would not touch upon the merits of the particular Amendments; but perhaps, after what the right hon. Gentleman has said, the House will permit me just to say that, with respect to the omission of the two first clauses, the Amendment of the Lords, though no doubt a violation of the privileges of this House, does not impose any new rate or new tax upon any party beyond what the existing law imposes. It is not as if in the original Bill there had been a limited rate, and the Lords had made it unlimited. They merely leave the law in the state in which it was. Under these circumstances, and reserving
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our full rights as regards church rates, county rates, and even poor-rates, when we think insisting on our privileges necessary for the public interest, and not waiving our rights by any general resolution, as we should have waived them if we had adopted the Motion of the hon. Member for the University of Oxford at the beginning of this Session, I trust the House will proceed to the consideration of the Amendments.
MR. F. FRENCHwas anxious that the view taken by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon should not be adopted by the House. It was most extraordinary that a stand should at this moment be made upon a question of privilege. When the poor-law was originally introduced in 1838, the Lords made some important Amendments in it, in a manner that, in his opinion, tended to ruin many districts. Why was not a stand then made upon a question of privilege? He hoped the Amendments would be adopted, for their whole scope and object was to check the legislation of that House, which seemed to have proceeded on the principle that Ireland was to be regenerated by every interest connected with it being ruined.
MR. HENLEYsaid, the objection taken by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon had been left wholly unanswered. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had only narrowed the question to a very simple issue, whether by continuing the course of precedent they would not be virtually giving up their privileges with regard to poor-rates. In his (Mr. Henley's) opinion any privilege which rested, as this did, upon unbroken usage, must be utterly swept away if they went on, day after day, giving way in the manner proposed by the noble Lord. If the course now proposed was pursued, and if hereafter the Commons attempted to set up their privilege, they would be involved in a discussion with the other House whether the privilege existed or not. They were actually cutting the ground from under them, and as effectually destroying the privilege as if they did so by a specific resolution. There had been an universal dissent from the resolution proposed by the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford. [Sir G. GREY: That resolution applied to all local rates.] He know that, and he knew that the right hon. Baronet drew a distinction

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between poor-rates and other local rates. The House, however, might depend upon it that if they now gave up their privilege upon this question—a question upon which it was most valuable—they would find great difficulty in maintaining it hereafter.
MR. HUME, having been a Member of the Committee on Public Business, had then refused to give up any of the privileges of the House with respect to taxation. The privilege of taxation belonged exclusively to the House of Commons, and he saw nothing but difficulty and collision in the future, if, in this measure, they consented to yield it up. It was at all times unpleasant and inexpedient for the two Houses of Parliament to come into collision; and it appeared to him that nothing was so likely to avoid it as a steady determined resolution to adhere to their undoubted rights. There ought to be no relaxation unless in the greatest emergency; and, in his opinion, a case had been made out for a waiver on this question. If, therefore, the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon took the sense of the House upon the subject, he should, at whatever risk of inconvenience, support him.
MR. GRATTANcontended that there was nothing beneficial in the Amendments to counterbalance the evil of the privileges of the House being abandoned. The House had already yielded its privilege, without any advantage being thereby gained, in the case of the original Poor Law Bill for Ireland; and if they went on abandoning their rights in order to pass bad measures, they would eventually destroy the country. He suggested that—as this difficulty had arisen—the Bill should be postponed, and that next Session a measure should be introduced really adapted to promote the interests of Ireland, without interfering with the privileges of the House of Commons. If the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon divided the House upon the question, he should vote with him.
MR. J. O'CONNELLsaid, that in matters of very great importance there might be some plea for the House giving up its privileges; but he did not think that this was a case in which they ought to be yielded. There were already so many precedents in this way that they almost became a general rule.
MR. EVELYN DENISONsaid, that if the proposition of the noble Lord went to impugn the resolution of the Committee
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on Public Business last year, no one would have a greater interest than himself in resisting that proposal. But he did not think that was the effect of it. The Committee recommended that the House should not, by resolution, abandon its undoubted rights and privileges upon questions of local taxation; but they did not go the length of saying that any practical inconvenience had arisen from the occasional waiving of its rights. That House need fear no great encroachment upon its privileges by the House of Lords. But it was said that the harmonious working of the legislative system would be best promoted by insisting upon extreme rights. He doubted that very much. At the same time, if they were to take the course pointed out by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, they would be drawing the strings much tighter than they had been drawn of late years. Was there any occasion for it? Had any practical inconvenience resulted from the slight concessions which had been made? None, in his opinion; and if the House were called upon for a decision, he should vote with his noble Friend at the head of the Government, believing that the Amendments might be made without inconvenience.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, the hon. Gentleman appeared to have misapprehended him, and, perhaps, therefore, he might be permitted to explain what he intended to suggest. He should suggest that the same course should be taken with this Bill as was taken with a Bill yesterday. In the proceedings of yesterday, he found the following:—"Boroughs Relief Bill; Lords' Amendments to be taken into consideration this day three months." Then there was:—"Boroughs Relief (No. 2) Bill: To relieve boroughs, in certain cases, from contribution to certain descriptions of county expenditure; ordered to be brought in by Mr. Attorney General and Mr. Spooner." And the next was:—"Boroughs Relief (No. 2) Bill: To relieve boroughs, in certain cases, from contribution to certain descriptions of county expenditure; presented, and read a first and second time, and committed; considered in Committee and reported, without amendment; and read a third time and passed." This was the last proceeding in the House yesterday; and it was the example which he would recommend to be followed now.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, the Bill referred to by the right hon.

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Baronet had been introduced to relieve the borough of Birmingham from certain local taxes, which had to be paid to the county of Warwick. It was originally introduced as a private Bill, but thrown out by the House of Lords, on the ground that it ought to be a public measure; and it had been introduced as a public measure, with certain clauses added, to meet the objections made in the House of Lords. That course, however, could not be taken with the present Bill, because it was proposed to agree to some of the Lords' Amendments, and to disagree with others.
MR. VERNON SMITHthought that if such a course had been adopted with regard to the borough of Birmingham, it ought à fortiori to be adopted in the case of Ireland. The arguments of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon were unanswerable, and they had been left un-answered. The right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary said, in effect, that there were a number of precedents for waiving the privileges of that House, and that a number of precedents was not the same as adopting the resolution which was moved by the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford. But they came to the same thing; and he would ask any experienced Member in that House, whether a series of precedents was not stronger than any resolution? It was against such a series of precedents, all upon the question of poor-rates, that he wished to guard the House; and he contended that the discussion had been most properly raised by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, to whom the House must feel indebted for the course he had taken.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, the right hon. Baronet had urged the House to take the same course with this measure as they had with a private Bill. [Sir J. GRAHAM: No; a public Bill.] Well, a public Bill. With regard to the merits of the Birmingham Bill, there had been no dispute, and no obstacle raised to its passing through all its stages. But if the same course were taken with the present measure, it must be materially altered; and the alterations would probably give rise to so much discussion that there would be little chance of the Bill passing in the present Session.
MR. SPOONERcontended that the Bill was just as liable to be delayed if the Commons waived their privileges, as it was if they resolved to maintain them.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, the only valuable
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parts of the Bill were the Amendments made in it by the Lords—all the rest was a delusion. But even the Lords' Amendments were not an equivalent for a surrender of the privileges of the House; and if there was a division, he should support the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he intended to propose that the Lords' Amendments be taken into consideration that day three months; but, before moving it, he wished to know what course the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon proposed to take.
SIR J. GRAHAMintimated that he did not intend to divide the House.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSthought the House was greatly indebted to the right hon. Baronet for the manner in which he had brought the question forward; and he rejoiced to think there was still some respect for privileges which used to be so much valued. The late report of the Committee on Strangers was also an instance of the same feeling. The hon. Baronet then entered, at some length, into a review of the Amendments, in the course of which he stated that only five clauses had really been introduced into the Bill by the Government. All the rest were owing to private Members or to the House of Lords. Some of the clauses were inconsistent with each other; and he contended that there was no necessity for immediate legislation. It would be infinitely wiser to postpone it till next Session.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
MR. MONSELLsaid, he should not enter into a discussion upon the merits of the Bill, or upon the Amendments made in it by the House of Lords. He had not heard, however, any hon. Member say that a rule was to be once and for ever laid down that the House was never to waive its privileges. This being the case, he reminded the House that it was impossible for the House of Lords to make any amendment in the Bill without interfering in some degree with the privileges of the Commons. If, therefore, the House of Commons insisted upon its privileges, the House of Lords must be deprived of all power of considering poor-law measures. For these reasons, he should vote with the noble Lord.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, the hon.

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Gentleman the Member for Mallow had entered at some length into the merits of the subject; but he did not feel bound to follow him in that discussion. The question, however, was one of very great importance, whether they should waive or strictly maintain the privileges of that House. He could not himself see that they could take any other course but one of these two—either to admit that the Lords should interfere with their privileges with regard to some of the clauses in the Bill for the amendment of the poor-law, or whether they should give up any chance of legislation upon the subject of the poor-law in Ireland in the present Session. The hon. Baronet the Member for Mallow asked him to consider the question further, and to introduce a Bill upon the subject in the course of the next Session. But if the House was to decide that its privileges were to be strictly maintained, without any departure from them—that was to say, that the course taken in 1838 and 1847 should never again be followed—that they were bad precedents which ought never to have been adopted—he should consider it hopeless to introduce any measure in the next Session of Parliament. If he brought in any Bill, he should not consider that he could introduce clauses in such a manner as not to be open to some amendment on the part of the House of Lords; and he could hardly hope, if the House of Lords made amendments, that they would not be such as would interfere in some way with the privileges of the House of Commons. The House had heard from the Chair, and everybody, he believed, had admitted that it was almost impossible for the Lords to pass a poor-law without interfering with the privileges of that House. There could be hardly one clause in which they would not attack or interfere with the Commons' privileges. The question was, therefore, of great importance, whether the House of Commons should give up the hope of being able to legislate harmoniously with the House of Lords upon the subject of the poor-law. When he said the question was of great importance to the House, he said it was more especially of importance to those who, taking an interest in the present subject, believed that the poor-law of Ireland ought to be amended. He had introduced a maximum clause, thinking it was an amendment, and believing it would tend to make the law work better hereafter; but he had always admitted that the principle was new, and
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that there were arguments against it of great weight. But, at the same time, he was himself quite satisfied with the present poor-law in Ireland. Let the House, then, understand that, though he thought it was capable of amendment, he did not think any essential amendments in its clauses were so required as to make it necessary for him to introduce a Bill for that purpose, seeing that it would only lead to great waste of time, and renewed conflict with the other House. In conclusion, he wished the House to consider the importance of the question, whether, on this occasion, they should depart from the course taken in 1838 and again in 1847.
SIR J. GRAHAM: Sir, I beg to claim the indulgence of the House for a few moments. The noble Lord has frankly admitted the great importance of the constitutional question, and what I am about to say shall he strictly limited to the discussion of it. I admit most distinctly that it is very difficult on a question of this nature to preserve the harmonious working of the two Legislative Assemblies, and that some concessions should be made, where it is possible to make them without the infraction of great constitutional principles—those principles which have been handed down to us as fixed, and as a special security—a security for that harmonious working. I admit as fully as the noble Lord, or any hon. Gentleman, that a conflict with the other branch of the Legislature is to be avoided. But the question is, how such a conflict is best to be avoided? I believe that reliance on the old constitutional maxims, and the strictest adherence to them, will be found the safest and best way of doing so. I declare to the noble Lord—so strongly am I impressed with this belief—that if, with reference to the public safety and advantage, it was on the whole thought expedient we should waive our privileges with respect to this question of the poor-rate, I would infinitely rather, in the next Session of Parliament, come deliberately to a resolution embodying that waiver, than go on multiplying these precedents. I tell the noble Lord—and I am sure that on reflection he will agree with me—that if we multiply these precedents, it is clear the other branch of the Legislature will avail itself of them when it pleases, and claim the right of dealing, not with the poor-rate only, but with that immense mass of local taxation which is becoming daily of more importance, and which the hon. Member for

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Buckinghamshire showed us the other night had increased to the amount of not less than 10,000,000 l. or 12,000,000 l. sterling annually. I repeat, that if we multiply these exceptional cases, the House of Lords will claim this interference with local taxation generally as a right. And what will then be the result? Why, that we—the House of Commons—shall be on the defensive, and that it will be necessary to draw a line of distinction between the poor-rate and local taxation—a line which the most acute man in this House (or I am much deceived) will not be able to define. I am decidedly of opinion, therefore, it is safer to come to a specific surrender of a given portion of our privileges—strictly assigning its limits—rather than multiply precedents of this indefinite character. I am far from saying I consent to that surrender. For my own part, I at once declare I doubt its policy. Why, what does the noble Lord at the head of the Government say? He declares that, in his own deliberate opinion, he is well satisfied with the existing poor-law, and thinks it requires no amendment. If this be the noble Lord's opinion, we are about to make the most gratuitous surrender of our privileges that was ever heard of. If the leader of the Executive Government came down to the House, and said great interests were at stake, and it was necessary for the public good to make exceptions in regard to this particular question, I might have been led to make such an exception; but when he tells us that with respect to this particular case, he is entirely satisfied with the present law, and that he has proposed these alterations not so much in conformity with his own judgment as to meet floating opinions here and elsewhere, I cannot hesitate to decide what course I shall take, and at once I say I take my stand on the ancient and undoubted privileges of this House. You, Sir, have stated that you have often private Bills before you affecting our privileges relating to the poor-rate, and that yon are bound by the rules and privileges of the House to give precise and exact effect to them, and not to sanction any appeal to the House in the strictest adherence to them. But what will be your position hereafter with respect to our private legislation? Why this—that in matters of minor importance, you shall be bound by those rules and privileges, insisting on the strictest interpretation of them; but that when mighty national interests are at stake, we shall make some unknown insertion on the Journals
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of our House, and waive our privileges without a contest. If I had doubts when I raised this question, I must say I cannot now hesitate, after the discussion I have heard, and after the statement of the noble Lord, as to what course I should take, and that I shall most decidedly support the Motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Mallow.
MR. SHAFTO ADAIRsaid, that with respect to the constitutional question, he believed that all the Members of the House were united in a universal wish to defend their just privileges; but he also thought that in matters of privilege there was another party whose interests were to be considered, and that was the party on he-half of whom those privileges were exercised. He thought that if the public interests required them to make a waiver of their privileges, they might do so without any injury to their future position; and if any great occasion hereafter arose, such as the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon seemed to apprehend, he had no doubt but that Mr. Speaker would, as his predecessors had always done, give timely notice to the House with regard to it. He would, under these circumstances, feel bound to oppose the Amendment.
MR. GRATTANsaid, the noble Lord at the head of the Government had now told the Irish Members, on the 27th of July, after they had been sitting there since the month of February endeavouring to amend the law, that he was quite satisfied with the Irish poor-law as it stood. When he heard that declaration he remarked to an hon. Friend near him, "The noble Lord has cut all our throats." He thought it essential that they should impose taciturnity on the noble Lord. There was once an Irish doctor in that House who was forced to hold his tongue, and who was called the muzzled doctor. They ought to have an English muzzled Lord also in the House. It was too bad that after five months' deliberation they should be met by such a declaration. He found his house on fire; he came there to look for aid, but when he looked round to the quarter from which he was to expect assistance, he found that it was much more likely to come from the ablebodied pompier six feet high and three feet broad, than from the Lilliputian occupant of the bench opposite.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon seems to think that I said I was entirely satisfied with the present state of the Irish poor-law,

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and that I thought no amendment whatever was required in it. Now, I beg leave to explain what I really did say. I was proposing that the House should go into the consideration of the Amendments in the Poor Law Bill, which have come down from the House of Lords, when the hon. Baronet the Member for Mallow moved his Amendment, stating that he thought it better to defer the subject to another Session, and that this Bill ought to be rejected on the ground of an interference with our-privileges on the part of the House of Lords. I stated that, if the course which the hon. Baronet recommended were pursued, we could not introduce a Bill next Session, to which the same objection with regard to privilege would not apply; but I added also that I was so satisfied with the present poor-law, that, although I thought amendments might be usefully introduced in it, yet if the conclusion to which the House came were, that the present law should remain on the Statute-book as it is until next Session, I should not object to such a course.
MR. HUMEwould not enter into the merits of the Bill; but respecting the constitutional question, his opinion was this, that, as they were representatives of the nation, and were bound to protect the national interest, it was not for them to yield a right which, from time immemorial, was constitutionally vested in the House of Commons, namely, the right of taxation. The House of Lords might yield, because they acted for themselves; but they—the House of Commons—had no right to give up a privilege which they held from the people, and which had been handed down to them by successive generations. He quite concurred with the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, that it would be much better to come to a resolution to give up their privilege to a certain point; but in their present position he did not see that they were justified in parting with a constitutional right which they held from the people at large. Upon that ground, and without reference to the merits of the Bill itself, he should vote for the Amendment.
SIR L. O'BRIENlooked upon the Bill as consisting of two parts. In one respect it was a Money Bill, but it also contained a great many regulations for improving the working of the Bill. The Bill was not, therefore, strictly speaking, a Money Bill, and he thought the House of Lords had a fair right to amend it. He must, in that view of it, vote against the Amendment.
SIR H. W. BARRONsaid, that if the principle of the hon. Member for Montrose were to be carried out, that House should not, upon any measure of local taxation, go through the mockery of sending it to the House of Lords. Let that be the understood principle of the constitution if they were to act as that hon. Member required. He should vote against the Amendment.
SIR J. WALMSLEYthanked the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon for the opinions he had expressed on this very important question. It had been stated that the two Houses could not work harmoniously unless the House of Commons gave way upon this occasion. But they had already been favoured with strong reasons for not giving way; and if they were obliged to do so, he was satisfied that the opinion of the people out of doors would be this, that if the two Houses could not work harmoniously, one of them must be reformed, and that one was the House of Lords. He trusted, however, that this House would never yield one iota of its privilege of keeping a just and strict control over the taxation of the country.
SIR J. YOUNGwished to observe, with regard to what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, as to the powers of the House of Lords being considerably on the increase, that the course of legislation for the last century showed that any danger of encroachment on the part of the other House on the privileges of the people was perfectly chimerical. The question to be considered was, whether it was indispensable for this House to maintain power over local taxation—a power so difficult to maintain that it must be frequently waived—or whether they might not safely add another precedent to those that had been cited as already existing, of departure from their privileges. The House should consider, looking to the position of the House of Lords as consisting of great landed proprietors, whether that House was not better qualified to deal with these questions of local taxation than the House of Commons. He considered the line of demarcation between questions of local and general taxation to be so broad, that there could be no danger whatever of its being passed.
MR. HORSMANsaid, the hon. Member who had just resumed his seat, had told them that he could see no harm in adding another to the precedents already existing of departure from the privileges of the

1061
House on such questions; and yet he had added, immediately after, that he thought it better if all questions connected with the poor-law should be handed over exclusively to the House of Lords. The question was, whether the advantage to be gained by concession was worthy of the sacrifice of their privileges. He thought there could be no difficulty on this point after the speech which they had heard from the noble Lord at the head of the Government—a speech of which he would only say, that nothing else had been wanting to make up the absurdity of their legislation this Session on the subject of the Irish poor-law. They had commenced their legislation on this subject five months ago, thinking that the law required amendment. A Committee had been appointed, and had been sitting for five months, and yet it now turned out, that whether the law was amended or not, was a matter which made very little difference in the estimation of the Government. As the Bill now stood, it was an entirely different measure from that which they had agreed to. The principle of the Bill had been taken away, and there were only five clauses in the whole Bill to which that House had given their sanction. It was no more their Bill than the noble Lord would be Prime Minister, if he were brought into the House to-morrow without his head. He thought they should stand by their privileges as a separate and independent branch of the Legislature. Every one who considered the subject must see that these were not times when that House ought to give up any of the privileges which they held on behalf of the people. They should certainly not waive any of these privileges unless there were some great object to be gained; but in the present instance the object to be gained was perfectly insignificant, while the precedent sought to be established, of a surrender of their privilege, was a far larger one that any that had as yet taken place. He fully concurred, under these circumstances, in what appeared to be the almost unanimous opinion of the House, that it was not an occasion when they ought to make so large a sacrifice.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 111; Noes 62: Majority 49.

List of the Ayes.

Abdy, T. N.

Aglionby, H. A.

Adair, R. A. S.

Anson, hon. Col.

1062

Armstrong, Sir A.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Armstrong, R. B.

Lewis, G. C.

Baines, M. T.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T.

M'Cullagh, W. T.

Barron, Sir H. W.

Magan, W. H.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Mangles, R. D.

Birch, Sir T. B.

Marshall, J. G.

Blackall, S. W.

Matheson, Col.

Brocklehurst, J.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Brockman, E. D.

Monsell, W.

Brooke, Lord

Morris, D.

Brotherton, J.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Buxton, Sir E. N.

Newdegate, C. N.

Campbell, hon. W. F.

Newport, Visct.

Clifford, H. M.

Nicholl, rt. hon. J.

Cobden, R.

O'Brien, Sir L.

Coke, hon. E. K.

O'Connell, M. J.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Owen, Sir J.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Paget, Lord A.

Craig, W. G.

Paget, Lord C.

Dawson, hon. T. V.

Palmerston, Visct.

Denison, J. E.

Parker, J.

Dickson, S.

Pinney, W.

Dundas, Adm.

Price, Sir R.

Dundas, Sir D.

Ricardo, O.

Ebrington, Visct.

Rice, E. R.

Ellis, J.

Rich, H.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Russell, Lord J.

Evans, Sir De L.

Scrope, G. P.

Evans, J.

Seymour, Sir H.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Fitzpatrick, rt. hn. J. W.

Shelburne, Earl of

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Simeon, J.

Foley, J. H. H.

Smith, J. A.

Forster, M.

Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.

Fortescue, C.

Stafford, A.

Fortescue, hon. J. W.

Taylor, T. E.

Fox, R. M.

Thompson, Col.

French, F.

Thornely, T.

Goddard, A. L.

Tollemache, hon. F. J.

Greene, T.

Townley, R. G.

Grenfell, C. W.

Tufnell, H.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Vane, Lord H.

Grey, R. W.

Villiers, hon. C.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Williams, J.

Hallyburton, Ld J. F. G.

Wilson, J.

Harris, R.

Wilson, M.

Hawes, B.

Wodehouse, E.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Headlam, T. E.

Wyvill, M.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.

Young, Sir. J.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Howard, lord E.

TELLERS.

Jervis, Sir J.

Bellew, R. M.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Hill, Lord M.

List of the NOES.

Adderley, C. B.

Fox, W J.

Anderson, A.

Fuller, A. E.

Baillie, H. J.

Galway, Visct.

Beresford, W.

Glyn, G. C.

Bramston, T. W.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Greene, J.

Charteris, hon. F.

Halsey, T. P.

Cobbold, J. C.

Hamilton, G. A.

Coles, H. B.

Hamilton, J. H.

Colvile, C. R.

Henley, J. W.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Heywood, J.

Duncan, G.

Hornby, J.

Dunne, Col.

Horsman, E.

Fagan, W.

Hotham, Lord

Fordyce, A. D.

Hume, J.

1063

Jocelyn, Visct.

Reynolds, J.

Jones, Capt.

Sadleir, J.

Keating, R.

Scott, hon. F.

Locke, J.

Scully, F.

Lockhart, A. E.

Sheridan, R. B.

Lushington, C.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Meagher, T.

Spooner, R.

Milner, W. M. E.

Stuart, Lord D.

Mullings, J. R.

Stuart, J.

Naas, Lord

Thompson, G.

Nugent, Sir P.

Waddington, H. S.

O'Connell, J.

Walmsley, Sir J.

O'Flaherty, A.

Walpole, S. H.

Pakington, Sir J.

Willcox, B. M.

Patten, J. W.

Pechell, Capt.

TELLERS.

Peel, Col.

Grattan, H.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Main Question put, and agreed to.
At a subsequent period of the evening,
LORD J. RUSSELL LORD J. RUSSELL moved that the House agree to the Lords' Amendments, omitting Clauses 1 and 2 of the Poor Law Amendment Bill. He did not intend to reopen the discussion of the subjects involved in these clauses. One of them was that of a maximum rate. On this subject there had been a great division of opinion in this House, and when the Bill went up to the Lords, they had struck out the clause embodying the principle in question. Under these circumstances, particularly considering the divided and nearly balanced state of feeling in the House with regard to the maximum clause, he thought that the most advisable course for them to adopt would be to agree to the Amendments of the Lords, by whom the clause had been expunged.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSthought that the Bill, as the noble Lord wished them to receive it, contained scarcely one principle worth having. He was afraid that the hopes which had been raised throughout the country would be disappointed. In his opinion it would have been better for the noble Lord to have adhered to the principles with which he started; he believed those principles would have been most beneficial to the country; and the more they were exhibited, the more they would be approved of.
MR. POULETT SCROPEsaid, that if the statement turned out to be true, he should regret that the proposition for taking-possession of the waste lands of Ireland was not carried into effect, for they might have discovered means at once to have paid off the national debt. As to the maximum rate which it was now proposed to omit, he never was very sanguine as to the effect; on the contrary,
1064
in voting for those clauses, he yielded to what he believed to be the superior judgment of gentlemen of practical authority. He wished to know whether, ex confesso, in giving up these clauses, they did not leave these western unions in a most deplorable condition, unable to maintain their population. He did not see that the poor-law in the western unions would work relief to that part of the country. He must protest against the Session being allowed to close without the adoption of any measures of an ameliorative character for the west of Ireland.
COLONEL DUNNEwas much disappointed that Government should have abandoned the maximum clause after it had received the support of nearly all the Irish Members. He did not think that any rate should be allowed to reach confiscation; and seeing that, according to the Earl of Rosse, the local taxation of England was only 2s, 3d. in the pound, while in Ireland it was 8s. 4d., he thought that the latter country had been badly used with respect to this Bill. Another objection he had to the poor-law was the expense of its administration. From a return be held in his hand, it appeared that the amount expended in relief was equalled by the expenditure in administration. He again protested against the excision of the maximum clause.
MR. GRATTANthought that the House would take it for granted that the Poor Law Bill had totally failed. Mr. Nicholls and Captain Kennedy had given it as their opinion that no measure could do good unless that which gave employment. The Government were mistaken if they thought the Poor Law Bill would give permanent relief; but then they had another resource in emigration. He had never heard that a country was made powerful, great, and rich by exporting its people. He saw but one remedy—he hoped the day would come when the English Members would rise in a body and say to the Irish representatives, "Go home; we are tired of you and your affairs." But right hon. Gentlemen opposite were afraid of that magic word "Repeal;" but there were men who did not yet forget it, and who thought that if anything could save their country, it would be self-legislation. There was no sincerity in the maximum clause, and that was the reason why the noble Lord only set its proper value on it. He thought that the Irish gentry had a right to complain of the mode in which they

1065
were treated in regard to the administration of the poor-law, which might be carried out with less than half of the present establishment. The Government had passed measures which had sapped the morals of the people of Ireland—the men had been rendered dishonest, for they had been supported in idleness and negligence, and the females had been driven into the workhouses, where the virtuous were mixed with the abandoned. They would yet want the Irish, when their faithless allies, having swept the last vestige of freedom from other parts of Europe, would attempt the same in England. In Ireland they did not want men with muskets and bayonets, they wanted men with the plough and the sickle. He thought that the noble Lord had much better have abandoned the Bill altogether, and consulted the Irish Members on measures for the good of the country. Let the Government not seek to colonise Connemara, let them send back those Dukes and Marquesses who had run away from their country. They had refused to impose an absentee tax. He thought they would end by granting to Ireland self-legislation. He had seen some clothes made in one of the gaols in Ireland, and if the prisoners there, and the inmates of the unions had boon so employed, Government could have clothed 150,000 for 10,000 l. The 14,000 l expended on clothing for the old pensioners who had been called out in this country, would have saved from cold and misery 100,000 of the starving peasantry of Ireland. They ought to illuminate in Ireland next week, not only for the advent of Her Majesty, but for the restoration of the potato; for he differed from some hon. Members on the subject of the potato; and he believed that if the present Ministry were saved, it would be by the intervention of Providence in restoring that root.
MR. F. FRENCHsupported the pro-position of the noble Lord, and felt that they were under a deep debt of obligation to the Lords for the manly manner in which they had dealt with the clause. He had heard with pain the noble Lord at the head of the Government say that he was content with the poor-law, and that he sought no alteration in the Bill. Did the noble Lord think that he or any other Minister would be able to maintain a law so injurious to the welfare of the country? He told the noble Lord that the Irish Members were prepared to act in a body, and that neither he nor any other Minster would be able to maintain the law.
Motion agreed to.
The Lords' Amendment inserting Clause 5 of the Lords' Bill was agreed to, and the Lords' Amendment inserting Clause 6 of the Lords' Bill was disagreed to.
On Clause 10,
LORD J. RUSSELL LORD J. RUSSELL moved to agree to the Lords' Amendments, omitting Clause 10, and to insert Clause 10 of Lords' Bill, omitting the word "resident."
SIR H. W. BARRONopposed the omission of the clause. When they were providing for the poor of the country, they had no right to tax only one species of property. The clause, as sent up to the Lords, laid down the principle that charges upon land, so far as they could be got at, should go to the support of the pauperism, as well as the fee and the occupancy of the property. Why should a man who, out of an estate of 5,000 l. a year, bad to pay jointures and other charges to the amount of perhaps 4,000 l,. have to pay rate upon the full 5,000 l., while he himself only received 1,000 l,. those who held the charges upon the property receiving the income clear from all the various burdens to which the holder of the land was liable. He opposed the Motion.
MR. SADLEIRhoped the hon. Baronet would not divide against the noble Lord's Motion. As the clause went up to the other House, it made jointures chargeable in the first place, and annuities and rentcharge in the second place. The effect of imposing poor-rate on jointure would be intolerable; and to impose it on rent-charges and annuities, would be only to add an additional charge upon the land. Many English capitalists had advanced their money on the security of Irish rent-charges and annuities, and the effect of such a law would be to induce them at once to call in the arrears due to them.
MR. STAFFORD MR. STAFFORD moved the omission of the clause altogether.
MR. AGLIONBYwished to know what the opinions of the Irish Members were? He thought that amidst the variety of opinions expressed by the Irish Members, the best plan to pursue was to reject the clause.
Question put, to agree with the Lords in the said clause as amended.
The House divided:—Ayes 60; Noes 25: Majority 35.
SIR G. GREY SIR G. GREY moved that the Committee disagree to the Lords' Amendments omitting Clauses 16, 17, 18, and 19, which were explained as simplifying proceedings by boards of guardians for the recovery of

1067
arrears, and giving powers for regulating the practice in such proceedings.
After a brief conversation, in which Mr. Sadleir, the Attorney General, Colonel Dunne, and Mr. Hamilton took part,
Question put, to disagree with the Lords in the omission of Clauses 16, 17, 18, 19.
The House divided:—Ayes 81; Noes 22: Majority 59.
The Amendments suggested with regard to Clauses 20 and 21 were agreed to.
On Clause 22,
LORD J. RUSSELLMR. HENLEYsaid, that he could not understand why ratepayers in Ireland should not be entitled to a copy of the ratebook, as in England.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that his hon. Friend was mistaken in supposing that the provisions in this clause had the least analogy to the provisions of the English law. By this clause the parties were not to have a copy of the ratebook, but the amount of the rates which were due. It was the collector's book, not the ratebook.
SIR J. GRAHAMobserved, that the clause now under discussion was ancillary to another clause, which gave the landlord a power of ejecting his tenant when more than a year's rates were due, To that clause he had an insuperable objection, and therefore he should vote against the present clause.
The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place; and the Motion for disagreeing to the Lords' Amendments was agreed to.
On the Motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the Lords' Amendments in Clause 25 were agreed to.
On Clause 27,
LORD J. RUSSELLthen moved that the House should disagree with the Lords' Amendment in the 27th Clause.
SIR H. W. BARRONthought that the clause would considerably facilitate emigration, and that it ought to stand in its present shape.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the effect of the clause as it stood would be to encourage collusion, and tend to substitute rates for emigration for rates for the relief of the poor.
MR. AGLIONBYsaid, he did not sec any reason why, when one man owed another man money, the party to whom the debt was owing might not set off any sum which he owed his debtor. Therefore, if
1068
a ratepayer advanced 100 l. on debenture to the parish, and the interest and instalments were not paid as they fell due, it seemed but just that he should set off against the debt owing to him the rates due from him to the parish.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, that in law there was no set-off against a poor-rate. The relief of the poor was in all cases a ready-money transaction.
Motion agreed to.
On the Motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the Lords' Amendment inserting Clause 29 of the Lords' Bill, was agreed to.
On Clause 30,
LORD J. RUSSELLnext proposed to agree to so much of the Lords' Amendment inserting Clause 30 as is contained in the proviso commencing line 10 of page 18. and ending line 31 of the same page, and to disagree to the rest of the clause.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he should divide the House upon the clause.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the first word "And" to "be it Enacted."
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The House divided:—Ayes 26; Noes 100: Majority 74.
On Clause 31,
Question put, to disagree with the Lords in the said Clause.
The House divided:—Ayes 103; Noes 24: Majority 79.
The Lords' Amendments on Clause 33, being the last on the Paper, were then agreed to.

THE USES OF IRISH PEAT.
The O'GORMAN MAHONsaid, he wished to call the attention of the House to a valuable discovery which had been made, calculated to develop the resources of Ireland, and to aid in relieving the poverty of the country. The announcement he now made, might at first be listened to with incredulity by hon. Members; but, in support of his statement that a valuable discovery had been made, he would read to the House the following letter he had received from an English chemist:—
"I beg to acquaint you that a discovery has been made in Ireland which will materially enhance the value of landed property in that country. It consists in the aptitude of its millions of peat acres to produce at a trifling expense—little more than that of manual labour—oil, naphtha, naphthaline, muriate of ammonia, candles, pitch, tar, and other principles, by a new process of distillation. These several materials were submitted to me some months ago by Mr. Owen, and, from

1069
what I have seen and tested, I have no hesitation in pronouncing it one of the greatest discoveries of the age, and one which will become a source of unbounded wealth. I can easily lot you have a list of the several products derivable from th distillation; and you have my permission to give this most important matter whatever publicity you please. Some of the products have been seen by, I believe, the Marquess of Lansdowne and others here; and I know the Irish Court are already cognisant of the discovery.
"JOHN WATERS, M. D.,
"South-crescent, Bedford-square."
The most unequivocal testimony, both to the accuracy of the science involved in Mr. Reece's invention, and the facility of its practical application, had been furnished by M. Pellouse, of Paris—in whose laboratory the patentee made his preliminary experiments and perfected his discoveries—whose reputation combined the highest attributes of science with eminent skill in application. Similar testimony had been afforded by Professor Liebig, Dr. Hodges, Professor of Chemistry in the Belfast Institute, and many other eminent chemists, who had been consulted on the subject. Under the sanction of these authorities the capitalists who preliminarily undertook the investigation of Mr. Reece's invention, had, within the last three months, erected experimental works in Ireland on a scale of sufficient magnitude to test its merits. Their success had been complete in obtaining the products enumerated by the patentee, and in verifying the scientific testimony. It appeared that Irish peat was capable of producing oil of a superior quality, equal to spermaceti; and whereas spermaceti oil cost 90 l. to 95 l. per tun—the oil from peat could be produced for the sum of 40 l. per tun. There would be an equal reduction of price in respect to every other article into which peat might be convertible. [The hon. Member here exhibited to the House a candle, which, he said, had been produced from a solid piece of peat, and which, he added, gave a light equal to the finest wax. The candle, which had all the appearance of a waxen one, was handed across the table to the Treasury bench, where it was inspected by the Members of the Government. It was subsequently lighted in the House, and burned very steadily and with great brilliancy.] The hon. Member proceeded to say that he had the guarantee of Mr. Owen, a gentleman who had already established a manufactory in Ireland, having amassed immense property in this country, and on the faith of whose word he would stake his character, that there was no foreign material
1070
in that candle, but that it was the produce of a piece of Irish peat. Under these circumstances, he thought he was conferring a great benefit on his country by calling the attention of the House to this matter, as, by so doing, he made known to the empire resources in Ireland which had hitherto been unknown. He trusted that the noble Lord the Member for Bath, who was acquainted with Mr. Owen, would favour the House with his testimony in reference to that gentleman's character.
LORD ASHLEY, having been thus appealed to, would to only too happy to bear his testimony to the high character of Mr. Owen. In fact he would be most unwilling that the name of that gentleman should be mentioned in the House without his (Lord Ashley's) coming forward to give his full testimony that a more discreet, sober, generous, high-minded and religious man than Mr. Owen, it had never been his lot to meet. Mr. Owen was a trader who had long carried on a most extensive business; and a person more capable of undertaking operations such as those at present in question, as well as a person more incapable of making an exaggerated statement in reference to them, did not exist. His hon. Friend the Member for Ennis had given him notice that it was his intention this evening to appeal to him (Lord Ashley) upon the subject; and, accordingly, in order that he might be sure of his ground, he had that morning called upon Mr. Owen to ascertain from him the exact results of his experiments and operations. He would therefore state to the House the facts exactly as they had been stated to him, observing, however incredible these results might appear, that they were yet the fruit of actual experiment, of a course of experiments which had been going on for more than a twelvemonth, in which Mr. Owen had invested considerable capital, and from which he had already reaped considerable returns. The great value of the plan was, that Mr. Owen sought for no recompense or reward from the country. His object was to confer benefit upon Ireland, and to show that there existed in that country a profitable investment for money which had never hitherto been dreamed of. The statement which he had to make to the House was as follows. The extraction of 100 tons of peat in Ireland would cost 8l.; the labour of chemically converting it would cost about 8l. more; and the product would be the following substances:—

1071

£

s.

d.

Carbonate of ammonia, 2,602 lbs., value

32

10

2

Soda, 2, 118 lbs.

8

16

6

Vinegar, 600 lbs.

7

10

0

Naphtha, 30 gallons

7

10

0

Candles—that was the stuff of which candles were constructed—600 lbs.

17

10

0

Camphine oil, 600 lbs.

5

0

0

Common oil, 800 lbs.

3

6

8

Gas

8

0

0

Ashes

1

13

0

Total

£ 91

16

4

It appeared, then, from this calculation, that for 16 l. expended in raw material and labour—or, take a wide margin, and say 20 l., a return of more than 90 l. would be realised. And these were not mere theoretical results. Mr. Owen had already operated upon hundreds and hundreds of tons of peat, and he was ready to stake his character and his fortune upon the accuracy of his experiments. And the advantage was not confined to the extraction of the substances in question from the peat. When the superincumbent layer of that substance was cleared away, the soil beneath was found to be fruitful beyond all expression, having been for ages absolutely saturated with ammonia. He did not wish, entire as was his confidence in Mr. Owen, that the House should accept the statement which it had just heard without a certain degree of reservation; but if only one-half of the results which he had indicated were to be realised, the effect would be most extraordinary and beneficial; indeed, in such a case, 100,000 acres of Irish bog would be more valuable than all the gold regions of Calfornia.
Subject at an end.
The House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.