Commons Sitting of 25 July 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Juvenile Offenders.
Reported.—Slave Trade (Persian Gulf); Drainage of Lands; Admiralty Jurisdiction in the Colonies; Bankrupt Law Consolidation.
3° New Forest and Waltham Forest; House of Lords Costs Taxation; Nuisances Removal and Diseases Prevention; Defects in Leases Suspension; Clergy Relief; Cruelty to Animals; Protection of Women.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Hindley, from Ashtonunder-Lyne, for the Clergy Relief Bill; also for the Bankrupt Law Consolidation Bill; and from Lindley, for an Alteration of the Sale of Beer Act. By Mr. Mostyn, from Rhyl, respecting the Welsh Language in the Established Church (Wales)—By Mr. Elliott, from the Australian Agricultural Company, for the Promotion of Steam Communication with the Australian Colonies. By Viscount Lewisham, from Rugeley, for the Repeal of the Duty on Attorneys' Certificates.—By Lord Dudley Stuart, from Marylebone, for Repeal of the Window Duty.—By the Earl of March, from Hailsham, for Agricultural Relief.—From Glasgow, complaining of Evasion of the Factories Act.—By Colonel Thompson, from London, for Recognition of the Hungarian Republic.—By Sir G. Grey, from Northumberland and Durham, respecting Accidents in Mines—By Mr. Tufnell, from Devonport and East Stonehouse, against the Sale and Manufacture of Bread Bill.—By Sir E. Buxton, from Laxfield, for the Suppression of the Slave Trade.—By Mr. E. Howard, from the City of London, for the Smoke Prohibition Bill.

NUISANCES REMOVAL AND DISEASES PREVENTION BILL.
Order for Third Reading road.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
LORD ASHLEYbrought up four supplementary clauses. The first would empower the Board of Health to inspect and inquire into burial grounds; the second to give the churchwardens the power of making an agreement for further interments whore the churchyards became offensive and dangerous to the public health. The board thought it desirable that the subject should be taken up on a grand and comprehensive scale. They expected to be able to place before Parliament a large scheme with respect to intramural interments, as soon after the meeting of the next Session of Parliament as possible. To this subject the two latter clauses related.
Mr. MACKINNONconsidered the clauses to be satisfactory as far as they went; but they were not stringent enough to meet the nuisance intended to be corrected. He impressed upon the House the fact that within the last sixty years 3,000,000 human bodies had been buried within the limits of the metropolis. He trusted that stops would be taken to bring

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the scheme of the commission into early operation.
LORD ASHLEYsaid, it would be much better to leave it to the Government to take up the scheme of the commission, when prepared, than that he should propose its adoption.
MR. HEKLEYthought it was necessary that this subject should be dealt with by Parliament. A complaint was made in that House the other night that something had not been done by the parochial authorities of St. Margaret's in reference to their burial ground, in consequence of an alleged understanding come to upon the occasion of the repair of the church; and he was informed a few days since that the reason was because of the uncertainty which prevailed as to what the law might be with respect to intramural interments.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that a communication made to him by the rector of St. Margaret's corroborated the statement of the hon. Gentleman. He would take the opportunity of adding that he had received some communications with reference to the statement made in the House in regard to burials made in Bristol, and he was informed that the representation, that the bodies of persons who had died of cholera were left exposed, to the peril of the inhabitants of the surrounding houses, was perfectly unfounded; he was assured the graves were all nine feet deep, and the utmost precaution was taken to prevent any evil result to the neighbourhood.
COLONEL THOMPSONsaid, he only wanted to impress the general fact, that we were approaching the time when, if something effectual was not done, our crime and our dirt would run away with us. He was, therefore, glad to see the alliance between a noble Lord and the hon. Gentleman opposite, who, he trusted, would be two Herculeses to cleanse the moral and the physical Augean stables that were before us. There might be a time when the mosaic paddle or the spear sufficed for sanitary regulations; but that was long gone by, and the comfort of existence was concerned in keeping pace with the wants of the age.
Clauses agreed to.
Bill passed.

CLERGY RELIEF BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
MR. HAGGITT MR. HAGGITT moved that it be read a third time that day three months. He considered it impossible that the Bill could pass through Parliament this Session; and, at any rate, he objected to its being disposed of now, when there was scarcely a University Member in town, and when so many other Members had left. The Bill did not apply to any practical question, as there was no real grievance to be remedied. He was convinced that no clergyman becoming a bonâ fide Dissenter, or joining the Church of Rome, would ever be molested by any bishop. He objected to the Bill, because it would reduce the functions of the bishop from a judicial to a mere ministerial capacity; and also, because it would lead to the abolition of the extreme censure of the Church, namely, excommunication, which, though rarely used, was still in existence. Parliament in former days never thought of legislating on ecclesiastical subjects, having contented itself with sanctioning that which the Church had previously agreed to, and he thought that the reasons that then existed for abstaining from such legislation were in equal force now.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
MR. BOUVERIEsaid, the Bill had been carefully considered by a Select Committee, two of the Members of which represented the Universities of Oxford and Dublin, and all the recommendations of that Committee had been carefully attended to. As to the time of the Session, he found seven or eight Bills on the Paper not so far advanced as this one was, and therefore he looked upon that as no valid objection to the third reading. The hon. Gentleman said there was no practical grievance to remedy; whereas the Bill was brought in on the occurrence of an actual practical grievance. The mode taken by the Bill to remedy the evil complained of, was less open to objection than any other that could be devised, and he hoped the House would now consent to the third reading.
DR. NICHOLLurged his hon. Friend to withdraw this Bill, as there was no chance of its being passed at that late period of the Session.
MR. HAGGFITobserved, as the general feeling of his Friends around him appeared to be against a division, he would

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withdraw his Amendment. His great object was to protest against this Bill.
Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read 3°, and passed.

PROTECTION OF WOMEN BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
MR. ROEBUCKexpressed a hope that the hon. Member for North Warwickshire would not endeavour to pass it in the present Session. He objected to the two new clauses which had been added to the Bill, directing not only that the costs of the prosecution should be paid, but that the party should likewise be compensated. This was departing from the ordinary course, and might open the door to many vexations prosecutions for the purpose of obtaining compensation.
MR. ANSTBYsaid, that he would move that the Bill be read a third time that day three months, unless the hon. Member for North Warwickshire postponed it till next day. Two new and important clauses had been added, which were not yet in the Bill, and it was only right that at least a day should be allowed to intervene. The hon. Gentleman himself admitted that the Bill was so altered and perverted by amendments that had been added, limiting its operation to women under twenty-one years of age, from its original character, that he did not care to pass it, and yet he now persisted in moving the third reading. In its present shape, it was a Bill to prevent the procuring of women by other persons, but it did not in the least degree prevent defilement by the seducer in person—or what some hon. Gentlemen had described as legitimate seduction.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon this day three months."
MR. HENLEYwished the hon. Member for North Warwickshire to state what he intended to do upon the subject of costs, as referred to by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield. As the Bill was now framed, it might be entitled, "a Bill to support a society for the suppression of vice at the expense of the county rates."
MR. SPOONERsaid, he had treated this offence as other offences in regard to
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costs. But he was willing to strike out of the clause the words, "compensation for loss of time."
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 65; Noes 22: Majority 43.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read 3°.
On the Question that the Bill do pass,
MR. HUMEsaid, that he could not allow this extraordinary measure to pass without saying a few words by way of protesting against it. In the first place, he begged to observe that, as it came from the House of Lords, it consisted of only one clause. That had been considerably altered, and within the last forty-eight hours two other clauses had been added, and now they were asked to pass the Bill into a law. In the next place, he must say it appeared to him that to attempt to improve the morals of the people by Act of Parliament was a great mistake. He thought it would be better if the right rev. Prelates and others who interested themselves in this question, would endeavour to set a good example to the community. If a Bill of this kind were desirable at all, it should have been taken up by the Government with all the assistance which they could command to render it as perfect as possible. But he protested against this kind of interference altogether. There was a certain class of persons who were never at rest unless they were either showing intolerance to their neighbours, or making loud professions of superior sanctity. That was a class whom he always looked upon with suspicion, because in his dealings with them he had invariably found them the readiest to impose upon others, and the least ready to do justice.
MR. ROEBUCKalso begged to enter his protest against this ill-considered and crude piece of legislation, which he described as the result of a species of cant which was almost as dangerous as vice.
MR. MOWATThad also felt himself obliged to oppose the Bill, because it was calculated to mislead the people for whose benefit they affected to legislate, namely, the parents of females in humble life, by teaching them to dispense with the moral education and training of their children, and lean only upon the Legislature.
MR. SPOONER, in reply, said that there had only been a few verbal alterations made in the first clause; and with respect to the two clauses which had been

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added since the Bill came from the Lords, they were clauses which it was not usual for the Lords to insert in Bills. Whether it was competent for them to do so, he would not say. With respect to the epithets "cant" and "superior sanctity" which had been applied to the promoters of the measure by the hon. Members for Sheffield and Montrose, he begged to say that they were words which were very easily used, but not so easily justified. If the hon. Members meant to impute, either to his right rev. relative or to himself, that they made any pretensions to superior sanctity, the only answer he would make to the charge was, that if, upon consideration, the hon. Members forgave themselves for so unjustifiable an attack, he and his right rev. relative would forgive them also.
MR. ROEBUCKdid not desire to impute any thing to the hon. Gentleman. He only meant to say that the House, in passing this measure, was yielding to an unworthy cry out of doors.
Amendments made; Bill passed, with amendments.

BANKRUPT LAW CONSOLIDATION BILL.
Order for Committee read.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, in rising to move that Mr. Speaker leave the chair to go into Committee on this Bill, he hoped he should be allowed to say a few words on this subject, which was one of very considerable importance, and he could only expect the House, at that late period of the Session, to take what he had to say on trust. The Bill came down from the House of Lords on the 8th of June, and was read a second time on the 18th of that month, and it was then determined to refer it to a Select Committee; the Members of which had attended upon almost every occasion, and had attentively examined the details of the Bill, with the view that nothing should be introduced into the Bill which in any way tended to damage it. The Bill came down in the shape of a code with schedules annexed, and in a form differing from the ordinary Acts of Parliament. It at once occurred to the Committee to consider whether the form of the Bill was not such as to render it difficult of working. On this point they had taken the opinions of persons conversant with matters of the kind, without troubling the House for its decision. The result was, it was determined by the Committee, he believed on the Motion of the hon. Member for Leominster, to put the measure in the
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shape of an ordinary Act of Parliament. He thought, without the House having given directions to the Members of the Committee on the subject, it would think that their proceedings had been right. The Committee felt that it might lead to difficulties of a nature which should be cautiously avoided if they allowed a measure of this kind to be diverted from the ordinary forms without the most ample consideration. The Bill which came from the House of Lords was not only a consolidation and amendment of the law of bankruptcy, but it also contained provisions for the creation of new officers for the performance of new duties, and to which salaries were affixed. It occurred to the Committee that they had not time to enter into that part of the Bill, and they determined if it was judicious to alter the constitution of the court, it would be better to have this done by a second Bill, and, in the meantime, the administration of tins now law should be entrusted to the old court. The Bill, as it came down from the House of Lords, enacted several new acts of bankruptcy. One of these appeared to the Committee to be of an alarming character, and which they thought they had not time to take into full consideration. It was one which enacted that all secret transfers of property should be considered as acts of bankruptcy. There was a further act of bankruptcy specified in the Bill, with which the Committee were not satisfied, to the effect that any person who should levy, by execution or sale, should be held as having caused an act of bankruptcy: these propositions were accordingly rejected by the Committee. The Committee had taken great care to adhere most scrupulously to the enactments of the old law, so as not to unsettle the decisions of the courts. The amendments which they had introduced he would explain, if necessary, in Committee. All that he asked was, that the House should give the Select Committee some credit for anxiety to do nothing to impede or injure the trade of this great country. There were no doubt introduced into the measure certain points of general improvement. Such were the clauses introduced, at the unanimous desire of the retail traders of the metropolis, giving facilities for private arrangements without imposing upon the parties the necessity of coming into court. The Committee had deemed it to be their duty to accede to these alterations, being certain that at the worst they could do no

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harm. In asking the House to go into Committee upon the Bill, he was conscious that he must ask them to take a good deal upon the faith of the Committee. There were a great number of clauses in the Bill, but the numerical majority of these introduced no new matter, and would not therefore tend, he thought, to provoke anything like extended discussion. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.
MR. J. STUARTexpressed his sense of the obligation due to the Committee for the extraordinary labour and attention which they had bestowed upon the Bill before the House. He was certain that as it had come from them it must have received many essential improvements, and that with respect to many of the points to which their attention must have been directed, although there might be a difference of opinion as to these points, yet that on the whole, considering the present state of the law, the Bill before them had come out of the hands of the Committee in a shape which entitled it to the respect and attention of the House.
SIR J. GRAHAMwas glad to join in any tribute of applause which could be paid to the Committee, but at the same time he was bound to say that that which they were now invited to do required more than ordinary deliberation. They were about to enter into the consideration of one of the most important branches of the law which affected the trade and commerce of this country. The words in which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General couched this invitation, were in themselves startling. They were invited to enter into the consideration of a Bill containing 278 clauses, embracing, in fact, the whole bankrupt law, and they were told that they must be content to take a great deal upon the faith of a Committee. He hoped, however, that adequate explanations would be given as the Bill passed through its various clauses in Committee. Admitting the obvious advantages of a consolidation of the law, he thought that in matters of such vital interest great care ought to be taken that under the guise of consolidation there was no chance of anything like real change being introduced. If the time would allow, all the changes actually effected ought to be fully explained to the House; but the fewer the number of these, the greater would be his confidence in the measure. He was willing
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to go into Committee, but he hoped that the House would not consent to pass the Bill as a mere matter of form, without attention and without care. He was informed that the consolidation clauses were by far the greatest number, and that the amendments were but few. In that case the discussion, of course, need not be an extended one.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, he proposed in Committee to point out all the important alterations. The repealing schedule had been adopted from the Attorneys and Solicitors' Act as a convenient form; the Committee had delegated to him the duty of examining it, which he had done carefully; and, with one or two verbal alterations, it might be taken as strictly correct.
The House then went into Committee.
Clauses 1 to 5 were agreed to.
On Clause 6,
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, a new principle was introduced in the mode of commencing proceedings. Instead of petition to the Lord Chancellor, the petition would be to the Court of Bankruptcy, with an appeal to the Vice Chancellor's Court. To this alteration the Lord Chancellor did not object.
In answer to Mr. HENLEY,
The ATTORNEY GENERALstated that the remodelling of the offices was to be effected by another Bill. No new officers were appointed, nor were any additional duties devolved on existing officers, except on the chief registrar, at present a sinecure. By a subsequent clause, the 7th, power was given to abolish two commissioner-ships on the death of the commissioners; and by the 9th to make a redistribution of the bankruptcy districts in the country.
SIR J. GRAHAMasked if any increase of salaries was proposed, or new fees given for additional duties, as had been done in another court?
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, there were no new officers created, or new salaries given. Some fees were reduced, and new modes adopted of charging the fees, by means of stamped papers issued from the board of inland revenue. All foes would go to the funds of the court, and would not be receivable at all by the officers. Parties, instead of paying a lumping fee, as at present, would pay small fees as the business was done.
Clause agreed to; as were Clauses 7 to 13.
On Clause 14,
The ATTORNEY GENERALstated, that Clause 14 gave power for a special case to be stated to the Court of Equity, as was now done to courts of law.
Clauses agreed to; as were Clauses 15 to 19.
On Clause 20,
The ATTORNEY GENERALstated, that certain duties, including the redistribution of the business, had been given to the senior commissioner, only because it must be done by some one. Opportunity had been taken of reducing the number of registrars in the event of death.
Clause agreed to; as were clauses down to 124. In the course of the proceedings,
The ATTORNEY GENERALstated, in answer to questions, that in future there would be but one account in bankruptcy, instead of several, as at present. Fees were now paid in money, which had given rise to some dissatisfaction, and hence the provision for their payment through stamped documents. No fees at all would be received by the officers, the payments being made for the stamped documents, to the board of inland revenue. This applied to the whole of proceedings, except to fees on taxation and other proceedings. No claim for compensation was given by the Bill; it was simply a re-enactment of the old law. The Bill, when it came from the House of Lords, had comprised provisions relating to the bankruptcy of Members of Parliament, which the Committee had struck out, as not coming within the scope of a consolidation of the bankrupt laws. Clause 69 preserved the former period of 15 days between the commencement of proceedings and the issuing of a fiat. Clauses 75 and 76 were new; they made the filing of a declaration of bankruptcy in India an act of bankruptcy in England. Clause 77 related to private arrangements by composition deeds, and made the composition deed an act of bankruptcy, of which any creditor might avail himself.
MR. J. WILLIAMSsaid, this clause had excited much discussion in the Committee. It was felt a hardship that Members of that House who were traders should be placed in a different position from other Members.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that Clause 78, referring to summonses in bankruptcy, required that, in addition to the affidavit of a good defence on the merits, parties should give two securities to answer the claim. But this was left
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in the discretion of the commissioners. Clause 86 gave the power of inflicting costs where a party was vexatiously summoned. Clause 95 established a register of petitions from the country in the office of the secretary in London. This was new machinery, but would involve no additional expense. Clause 112 referred to intermediate protection between the surrender and the certificate. There were cases where such protection ought not to be given, as in the cases of fraudulent debts, defrauding the revenue, &c.; and in these cases the protection was refused. Clause 118 re-enacted a former Act against the examination on oath of a bankrupt or his wife; a bankrupt might be examined, and if he made a false statement, he was subject to an indictment for perjury. Clause 120 gave the power of arresting a party about to abscond. Clause 124 was new; where a party admitted a debt, on examination in bankruptcy, under the advice of his attorney, it might be made conclusive evidence against him in an action for the debt.
The remaining clauses and schedules were then agreed to.
House resumed. Bill reported as amended.
Committee reported progress; to sit again To-morrow.
And it being Six of the clock, the Speaker adjourned the House till Tomorrow, without putting the Question.