Commons Sitting of 25 May 1848

Preamble
Minutes. New Member Sworn. William Mordaunt Edward Milner, Esq., for York.
Public Bills.—1°I. Merchant Seamen's Fund; Metropolis Police; Light Dues.
Reported.—Public Health ; Law of Entail (Scotland). 5° and passed; Joint Stock Companies.
Petitions Presented. By Mr. Colvile, from Derby, for the Issuing of the Writ for an Election for that Borough.—By Mr. Clay, from Hull, and by other Hon. Members, from several Places, for Extension of the Elective Franchise.— By Mr. Home Drummond, from Dumbarney, and its Vicinity, respecting Quoad Sacra Churches.—By Sir Joshua Walmsley, from Woodgate, Loughborough, for Discouragement of Idolatry (India). —By Lord G. Benthick, from Lyme Regis, and by other Hon. Members, from a Number of Places, for Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Mr. J. B. Smith, from Dunfermline, for Abolition of Oaths.—By Mr. Bright, from the Presbytery of Lancashire, and by other Hon. Members, from several Places, in favour of the Places of Worship Sites (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. Home Drummond, from Perthshire, for Repeal of the Duty on Attorneys' Certificates.—By Mr. Octavius Morgan, from
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Vaynor (Brecon), for Rating Owners in lieu of Occupiers of Tenements.—By Mr. Hodgson, from Carlisle, respecting Spirit Licences.—By Sir De L. Evans, from Ratepayers of the Parish of St. Clement Danes (Westminster), for Revision of Taxation.—By Mr. Home Drummond, from Perthshire, for Alteration of the Banking Law.—By Mr. Romilly, trom Devonport, for Alteration of the Law respecting Bankruptcy and Insolvency.—By Mr. Munta, from Richard Gathorne Butt, praying the House to afford him its Protection. —From Ministers, Churchwardens, and Parishioners of East Donyland, Essex, against the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Rome, Bill.—By Lord Ashley, from Bath, for Suppression of Dog Carts,—By Dr. Bowring, from Lancaster, in favour of Secular Education.—By Mr. George Hamilton, from Stradbally, Queen's County, and several other Places, for Encouragement to Schools in Connexion with the Church Education Society (Ireland).—By Mr. Hornby, from Blackburn (Lanaster), for Extension of the Factories Act.—By Mr. Lockhart, from the Commissioners of Supply, Lanark, against the Law of Entail (Scotland) Bill.—By Sir T. Birch, from Working Porters of Liverpool, respecting Master Porters of the same Place.—By Mr. Alexander Hastie, from Glasgow, for Exemption respecting the Lunatic Asylums (Scotland) Bill.—By Sir J. Trollope, from the Board of Guardians of the Boston Poor Law Union, for Alteration of the Law respecting Mendicancy. —By Mr. Duncan, from Dundee, for Amendment of the Poor Law (Scotland).—By Captain Fordyce, from the City of Old Aberdeen, for Extending the Public Health Bill to Scotland.—By Lord Ashley, from the Town of Keighley, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, in favour of the Public Health Bill.—By Colonel Matheson, from the Town Council of the
Royal Burgh of Forres, suggesting the granting of Loans on Railways (Scotland).—By Mr. J. Matheson, from the Parish of Kilmuir Easter, Ross-shire, against the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill (1847); and Marriage (Scotland) Bill (1847).—By Admiral Gordon, from the Presbytery of Alford, against Schoolmasters (Scotland) Bill.—By Lord Ashley, from Bath, for Inquiry into the Slave Trade.—By Mr. William Lockhart, from Commissioners of Supply of the County of Lanark, for Completion of the Survey of Scotland.—By Mr. Fuller, from Trustees of the Turnpike Road leading from Beech Down, near Battel, to Heathfield (Sussex), for Alteration of the Law for Regulating Turnpikes.

DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH SPAIN—THE BRITISH AMBASSADOR.
MR. BANKES: I have to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he is prepared now to lay on the table of the House any further papers relative to the late transactions in Spain, which have terminated in the order for our Ambassador to quit the Court of Madrid within eight-and-forty hours?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I have already laid certain papers connected with the subject upon the table of the House, and it is my intention to lay upon the table certain other papers. The further selection I have made is in the hands of the printer. I shall not be able to produce them to-night; but I hope that they will be ready by to-morrow. Such of those papers as consist of despatches from Sir Henry Bulwer, received previously to the date of the instructions of the 16th of March, with two notes which passed between him and the Duke of Sotomayor relative to a per-

1411
sonal question, I have not already presented, the more especially as an explanation was in progress respecting them. But I have given directions for the printing of some other correspondence between the date I have specified, and that at which the notice was received, ordering Sir Henry Bulwer to quit Madrid. These papers will be included in the correspondence.
MR. BANKS S: I have received an intimation on the part of Sir Henry Bulwer to the effect that he is apprehensive, should my Motion be brought on to-morrow, that the discussion will be disadvantageous for him. I beg to state that my intention was in no degree to reflect, in bringing forward this question, on the conduct of our Ambassador at the Court of Madrid. My intention was only to raise the question relating to the instructions which he has received, and it was my purpose to confine my attention to the correspondence laid upon the table extending to the 20th of April. Up to that period the conduct of our Ambassador had received the full and entire approbation, not only of the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, but of the whole of the Cabinet. It is, therefore, in my view of the case, in no way affecting the character of the Ambassador at the Court of Madrid that the House of Commons should pronounce an opinion as to the instructions which he obeyed. I understand, however, from the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary, that certain communications are to be laid before us of a date prior to these instructions. These papers may alter the view of the case which I shall take, although I am not aware that they will. The conduct of the Ambassador was without impeachment up to the date of which I have spoken; but as I am aware that a debate when commenced is not always carried on according to the views and in the tone of the person commencing it, I cannot say but that in the course of such a debate the conduct and character of Sir H. Bulwer might be called in question. Understanding, then, that such is also the feeling of that Gentleman, I of course cannot but yield to it, as communicated to me, forming in fact, as it does, the wish of one Gentleman with respect to the course to be pursued by another. I shall, therefore, postpone my Motion until the next day of supply, leaving, however, my notice as it stands upon the Paper. If, however, the noble Lord at the head of the Government will give me a day for bringing this great and interesting question for-
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ward, that, I should say, is a fit mode of considering a topic of such gravity as this has become. I, a humble Member, can have no other opportunity but that of which I have availed myself; but if a day be given to me, I could more readily bring forward the question than in the other way.
LORD J. RUSSELL: It is for the hon. Gentleman to judge whether he will bring forward his Motion to-morrow or not. It is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to go into Committee of Supply tomorrow evening, and the hon. Gentleman can then bring forward his Motion, if he should so think fit. Sir Henry Bulwer has intimated to the hon. Gentleman that he thinks it only fair that his conduct should not be made matter of discussion until the further correspondence on the subject be produced. So far as Government is concerned, they are perfectly ready to meet the hon. Gentleman to-morrow, if he should think fit then to bring forward his Motion. If he should not think fit to do so, having had an opportunity, then I am not able to say that I can fix a day for him. I do not intend to give up the great question of the navigation laws. Probably a day will be found when the hon. Gentleman can bring forward his Motion; but I cannot give any promise, or make any engagement upon the subject.
MR. DISRAELI: I do not think the House can blame Her Majesty's Government for not furnishing us with the papers before next Saturday. But it is to be desired that no great time should elapse, after these documents have been laid on the table, before the discussion takes place. At the same time, it is very unsatisfactory, if we are to understand that the only chance of these documents being critically examined by the House should depend upon the necessity or caprice of the Government in fixing a Supply night. I am sure that there is no wish on this side of the House to retard the important business in charge of the Administration; but I do think that the noble Lord, when he considers the whole of the circumstances connected with the case, will feel that it is not more than is expected by the House and the country, should he hold out some early prospect of a full discussion.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I have no doubt that, after the discussion on the navigation laws, which commences on Monday, and which I am not willing to postpone, there

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will be a day when we shall propose to go into Committee of Supply; but, as I said before, I am not the least anxious that the hon. Gentleman should postpone his Motion, if he wishes to bring it on to-morrow.
VISCOUNT MAHON: The alternative put to us seems to be either to discuss this question without the documents, or not to discuss it at all. This, I say, is not a choice which Government ought to put before the House. Without expressing any opinion on the transaction itself, I may say it is quite plain that it is a transaction of no ordinary character; therefore I do think it would not be unbecoming the position of die noble Lord in this House, were he to hold out some prospect of a definite day for the discussion of the question, when all the documents shall have been laid before the House.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I repeat I cannot name a day.
MR. BANKES: I am aware that it is very material to have the matter arranged, so far as the noble Lord will permit it; and as it is manifestly inconvenient that further discussion should take place until the papers shall have been produced and considered, I cannot, therefore, take it upon myself to force on the debate tomorrow; but I trust that the noble Lord, on reconsidering the question, will feel that it is one of so important a nature, that he ought, for the sake of the Government, and the honour of the country, not to seek its postponement to a distant day.

WORKHOUSE OF CASTLEBAR.
MR. BOURKE inquired of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland "whether it be true that a sheriff's sale of all the furniture and clothing has taken place in the workhouse of Castlebar; and what provision has been made by the vice-guardians for the support of the poor of that union since the period of said sale?"
SIR W. SOMERVILLE admitted that all the effects and furniture of the workhouse had been sold except the beds. The difficulty in obtaining payment of rates led to this catastrophe. He was happy, however, to be able to add, that the vice-guardians had made such arrangements as enabled them to retain the paupers in the house.

WEST INDIES.
MR. GOULBURN said, there was a difficulty in obtaining information with re-
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spect to the state of the island of Jamaica. Two days ago a packet arrived which conveyed to private individuals accounts as to the distress under which Jamaica was labouring; and he wished to ask the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) if any information had been received by the Government as to the state of that island?
MR. HAWES, in reply, said, that by the packet that arrived the day before yesterday no information was received relative to the state and condition of Jamaica; but he contemplated in a few days laying some additional papers on the state of the West India colonies before the House; and if in the mean time anything further should arrive, of course it would be his duty to place it also before the House.

DENMARK AND PRUSSIA.
MR. P. HOWARD: Seeing the noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, I beg to ask whether he is now, or will be at a future day, prepared to say what progress has been made in the negotiation with respect to the mediation of this country between Denmark and Prussia, or rather, I should say, between Denmark and the confederated German Powers?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I am quite willing to give the information to my hon. Friend now, as far as it is consistent with the duty of a person engaged in any negotiation to do so. I think I may state that there is a disposition on both sides to consider proposals that might lead to an amicable termination of the negotiation. Of course, I cannot pretend to answer for the result; but I may state this fact, that while on the one hand the Danish Government have taken off some of the blockades which they began by imposing, on the other hand I have been informed within the last hour that the Prussian Government does not mean to enforce the order made by General Wrangel, for levying a forced contribution on Jutland: there appears, therefore, to be a desire for conciliation on both sides.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
On the Motion for the House to go into Committee on this Bill,
MR. SPOONER, rose to move that the Committee be postponed for a fortnight. His reason for making that Motion was, that several deputations from influential persons connected with waterworks companies had had interviews with the noble Lord opposite before the Bill went into

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Committee, at which interviews the noble Lord pledged himself that certain clauses, having for their object the protection of water companies, should be introduced into the Bill. Those clauses were printed, and laid before the House, and yet they were withdrawn by the noble Lord without discussion, and without explanation. This appeared upon the face of it to be so much like a breach of faith, that he felt it was his duty to move that the Committee be postponed for a fortnight, in order that a full explanation of the matter might be given by the noble Lord.
VISCOUNT MORPETH said, it did not appear to him that the course he had pursued in Committee on this Bill was at all open to the charge of a breach of faith. In the course of the discussion in the Committee, it appeared to the Committee desirable that no powers for the compulsory purchase of any waterworks should be taken; and those powers were consequently struck out of the Bill. Under these circumstances, he did not consider it necessary that the clauses defining the conditions upon which such compulsory purchase should be made were necessary, and therefore they were withdrawn. He was quite prepared, after the clause in which power was given to the local boards to construct waterworks, namely, the 66th Clause, to introduce a proviso that no such waterworks shall be laid down or constructed in any town where there was already a waterworks company in existence, without the consent of the proprietors of such waterworks being first obtained. He certainly would not recommend the hon. Gentleman to press any discussion upon the clauses to which the hon. Gentleman had referred, as in that case there would probably be far greater objections offered by the House to them than had hitherto been expressed.
Amendment withdrawn.
House in Committee.
Bill went through Committee.
House resumed.
Report received, and ordered to be printed.

JOINT STOCK COMPANIES BILL.
The Joint Stock Companies Bill read a Third Time.
MR. HEADLAM moved the introduction of the following clause:—
"And be it enacted, That after an order absolute shall have been made, execution shall not issue against any contributories of the company at the suit of any creditor, in respect of any debt
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due from the company, unless on motion to the Court of Chancery, leave to that effect being given; and that upon such motion it shall be lawful for the Court of Chancery either to permit execution immediately to be issued, or to suspend the same for such period and upon sash terms as the said court shall, in its discretion, think fit, regard being had both to the proceedings pending under this Act, and to the conduct of the shareholder against whom execution is sought to be enforced in obeying the same."
Clause read a first time.
On the question that it be read a second time,
MR. T. M. GIBSON said. that the Bill was simply for the purpose of giving shareholders the power of settling their own equity differences, and therefore it had nothing whatever to do with creditors. Under these circumstances he must oppose the clause.
House divided on the clause:—Ayes 9; Noes 94: Majority 85.

List of the AYES.

Bunbury, E. H.

Ord, W.

Dundas, G.

Spearman, H. J.

Farrer, J.

Wawn, J. T.

Forster, M.

TELLERS.

Hutt, W.

Headlam, T. E.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Aglionby, H A.

[It seems sufficient to publish the names of the Minority.]
Bill passed.

LAW OF ENTAIL (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee.
On Clause 2 (heir in possession under an existing entail, born after March 1, 1848, may disinherit, &c.), being proposed,
MR. D. MACNEIL said, he thought it would very much have simplified the measure if the same powers had been given to present as to future heirs.
MR. FORBES MACKENZIE moved the omission of the clause.
The Committee divided on the question, that the clause stand part of the Bill:— Ayes 87; Noes 19: Majority 68.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Clay, J.

Aglionby, H. A.

Clements, hon. C.S.

Baines, M.T.

Clive, H.B.

Bellew, R. M.

Cobden, R.

Bentinek, Lord G.

Cocks, T. S.

Blackall, S. W.

Conyngham, Lord A.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Cowper, hon. W.F.

Boyle, hon. Co.

Craig, W. G.

Bright, J.

Cubitt, W.

Brockman, E. D.

Darymple, Capt.

Brown, W.

Davie, Sir H. R. F.

Buller, P. s.

Duncan, G.

Buxton, Sir E. N.

Duncuft, J.

Cholmeley, Sir M.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Freestum, Col.

Paget, Lord A.

French, F.

Paget, Lord C.

Glyn, G. C.

Parker, J.

Greene, J.

Patten, J. W.

Grey, rt. hon. sir G.

Perfect, R.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Pinney, W

Hanmer, Sir J.

Pugh, D.

Hastie, A.

Pusey, P.

Hawes, B.

Reynolds, J>

Hayter, W. G

Romilly, Sir J.

Headlam, T. E.

Rutherfurd, A.

Henage, E.

Sheil, tr. hon. R. L.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.

Shelburne, Earl of

Hume, J.

Smith, J. A.

Hutt, W.

Smith, J. B.

Jervis, sir J.

Smollet, A.

Keogh, W.

Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.

Keppel, hon. G. T.

Talbot, C. R. M.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Thompson, Col.

Lewis, G. C.

Thornely, T

Lincoln, Earl of

Trelawny, J. S.

Macnamara, Maj.

Tynte, Col.

Maitland, T.

Ward, H. G.

Martin, S

Watkins, Col.

Matheson, Col.

Wood, rt. hn. Sir C.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Wood, W.P.

Melgund, Visct.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

Mitchell, T. A.

TELLERS

Morris, D.

Tufnell, H.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Hill, Lord M.

List of NOES.

Boldero, H. G.

Henley, J. W.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Hope, Sir J.

Cobbold, J. C.

Lockhart, W.

Coles, H. B.

M' Neill, D.

Colvile, C. R.

Neeld, J.

Drummond, H. H.

Newdegate, C. N.

Dundas, G.

Rufford, F.

Filmer, Sir E.

Vyse, R. H. R. H.

Forbes, W.

TELLERS

Godson, R.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Heneage, G. H. W.

Oswald, A.

On Clause 3 being proposed,
MR. BOUVERIE moved an Amendment to the effect that the consent of three substitutes, instead of four, should be sufficient for the cutting off the entail.
MR. F. .MAULE said, he was not one of those who wished to see a great amount of entailed estate brought into the market under this Bill; but he wished to see such arrangements made, under entails in Scotland, as should disburden estates of their present incumbrances, and lead to the laying out of money upon them. He was not unwilling to accept the Amendment.
Committee divided on the question, that the word "four" stand part of the clause: —Ayes 17; Noes 86: Majority 69.

List of the AYES.

Archdall, Capt. M.

Filmer, Sir E.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Henley, J. W.

Coles, H. B.

Hodgson, W. N.

Drummond, H. H

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Fellowes, E.

Mackenzie, W. F.

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M' Neill, D.

Stafford, A.

Melgund, Visct.

Verner, Sir W.

Neeld, J.

TELLERS

Neeld, J.

Forbes, W.

Scott, hon. F.

Lockhart, W.

[It is unnecessary to repeat the Majority.]
Clause as amended agreed to.
House resumed.
Report brought up.
Bill to be reprinted.
House adjourned at a quarter past One.