Commons Sitting of 9 May 1848

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBERS SWORN.—For Wicklow, Sir Ralph Howard, Bt.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Matthew Bell, from the Primitive Methodists of Howdon Pans (Northumberland), and other Hon. Members, from several Places, for Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Lord Ashley, from Bath, for Encouragement of Free Labour.—By Sir J. Y. Buller, from Kingsbridge (Devon), for Repeal of the Duty on Attorneys' Certificates.—By Lord G. Hallyburton, from Forfar, for Inquiry into the Excise Laws.—By Mr. W. Evans, from Derby, for Exemption of Charitable Bequests from Legacy Duties.—By Lord J. Russell, from the Archdeacon of Waterford, for Abolition of Ministers Money (Ireland).—By Mr. Brotherton, from Quick's Green in Berkshire, for Reduction of Duties on Tea, Coffee, Sugar, and Cocoa, &c.— By Mr. Archibald, from John Pinkerton Feuar, 39, Wellmeadow Street, Paisley,
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complaining of Assessment on Windows.—By Lord Ashley, from Master and Journeymen Bakers of Bath, for Inquiry into their Grievances.

PUBLIC HEALTH, WESTMINSTER.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY wished to put a question to the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests respecting the public health of the neighbourhood of Westminster. There existed a very considerable degree of fever, partaking of the character of typhus, in that locality, and this was in some degree attributed to the experiments which had been made upon the sewage. He desired to be informed whether the noble Lord had any information as to the bad effects produced by the opening of drains and sewers on the sanitary state of portions of the city of Westminster. It had been stated that various drains had been opened for the purpose of deodorising, and that they emitted very noxious vapours. He had very little faith in these deodorising projects. An eminent engineer, who had turned his attention to these subjects, undertook in the presence of several Gentlemen of that House, to clarify the filthiest water. He perfectly succeeded. Admiral Owen, who was present, was so pleased with the result of the experiment, that he drank a glass of the water, which acted upon Min as an instantaneous emetic.
LORD MORPETH said, that the hon. Gentleman was perfectly right in stating that a considerable degree of fever prevailed in the precincts of the Abbey; but as no sewer in the locality had been opened since February, he did not think it could be traced to that, but was owing to the state of the weather. He had been informed, since the hot weather had set in, that noisome smells had prevailed in other parts of the metropolis. In the precincts of Parliament he feared the drainage was deficient. He found that no cesspool had been opened since the month of February last, when a very considerable amount of frost prevailed, and when, in consequence, no harm could arise. Since the hot weather had set in, a very uniform state of ill health had been observed over the metropolis. As far as regards the precincts of Westminster, there was only one great main sewer for the carriage of offensive matter, all the remaining portion was carried away by nightmen. Dr. Vincent, the medical attendant of the Westminster School, had informed him that he had been unable to trace the presence of any fever in that neighbourhood. Recently 6,535

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cesspools had been emptied in the metropolis, and he was told not only that the sanitary condition of the districts in which this had been done had been improved, but that the inhabitants had expresssed great gratitude.

NATIVE INDUSTRY.
LORD G. BENTINCK said, that in pursuance of the notice he had given, he proposed to put to the noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown a protectionist or free-trade question of the deepest importance and interest at the present moment. He needed not to remind the House that an announcement had gone forth of a desire, which, inasmuch as it was beyond the law, was also above the law, and would be found more powerfully binding than any law which that House could enact—he meant the desire expressed by Her Majesty that the ladies of England, such as intended to be present at drawing-rooms or Court assemblies, should be pleased, during the present depression of commerce and trade, to appear in no attire except such as was the produce of native industry. The question he had to put to the noble Lord at the head of the Government was, whether this desire had been expressed because Her Majesty, weeping and heartbreaking at the distress which she had seen around her—at the distress which overwhelmed the weavers of Spitalfields, the ribandmakers of Coventry, the lace-makers and hose-manufacturers of Nottingham, could no longer bear that hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth of goods, the manufacture of France and other foreign countries, should come weekly into the port of London, driving out of employment the home manufactures? He asked whether, it having come to Her Majesty's knowledge, that in the first three months of this year there had been imported into the port of London alone, silk goods of foreign manufacture exceeding in value 400,000 l. sterling, and equal to the employment of 31,000 weavers; and that, also, into the same port of London, there had been imported lace to the value of 20,000 l. more, and needlework likewise to the amount of 20,000 l., each sufficient to throw out of employment 4,000 needlework women and sempstresses; likewise 7,000 dozens of boot and shoe fronts, sufficient to employ 1,200 cordwainers in this country;—was it, he asked, that Her Majesty, who had always reigned in
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the hearts of her people, and never more so than now, when she was flying to their rescue from the measures of that party which the noble Lord had so well described as a party of philosophers in this country—was it, he asked, that Her Majesty having heard of these things, had of her own will, and from the emanation of her own heart, given to the ladies of this kingdom this order, which he presumed, by a usual interpretation clause, would be construed to include gentlemen as well as ladies, and which, then, the Speaker of that House — the first Gentleman of this country by virtue of Ids office as well as by nature and accomplishments—would think himself as much bound in gallantry as well as in loyalty and duty to obey? He asked whether this important announcement was the emanation of Her Majesty's own disposition, or whether it was what the noble Lord at the head of the Government had advised her to the effect that those free-trade measures which had been carried were already past endurance and must be now put aside, it being no longer becoming any good Englishwoman or Englishman to pursue the policy of purchasing in the cheapest market? He asked whether this announcement might not be taken as not only indicative, as they were all sure it was, of Her Majesty's will, who now stood forward as the first protectionist in this country, but as also indicative of a change of opinion on the part of Her Majesty's Ministry? and whether it were not an intimation that they were now going to retrace that course which had gone so far to bring the country into its present state of distress? He asked whether the announcement might not be taken as indicative of the disposition of the Ministry as well as of Her Majesty not to behold with cold indifference our own colonists and our own traders reduced to beggary and ruin?
LORD J. RUSSELL said, that as the noble Lord had certainly made a speech in putting his question, it was very difficult for him to evolve the question from the statements and arguments with which the noble Lord had surrounded it. But, as far as he understood the noble Lord's question, which appeared better shaped as printed in the Paper of the House than as put by the noble Lord, it was to the effect —whether, in the first place, Her Majesty had given commands to ladies attending at

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Court to appear attired in dresses exclusively the products of native industry? It certainly was true that Her Majesty had issued commands that the ladies should appear at Court on Court occasions in dresses of British manufacture. He believed that there was nothing new in the issue of such an order. Similar orders were constantly given in the times of former Sovereigns; and it was, as the noble Lord supposed, from Her Majesty's kindness, and from a wish to be of service to persons in this country engaged in the manufactures likely to be required, that such an order was given. The noble Lord went on to ask whether that announcement was to be taken as a symptom that the advisers of the Crown had changed their opinion with respect to the admission of foreign manufactures; and whether it was to be looked on as the first practical proof of that change? With respect to that question he should say, that he considered the point immediately in question within the department of the Lord Chamberlain; and he should never consider that such advice given as to the dress in which ladies should appear at Court, could be taken as involving the opinion of the Government on the policy of free trade. With regard to the measures passed on that subject, he should say, in reference in the first instance to the quantity of silk manufactures introduced into this country, that there was formerly a very great quantity introduced, which was certainly not entered at the Custom-house, and never paid duty, but which, owing to the very high duties imposed, was smuggled into the country, 10 or 12 per cent being paid for the cost of so doing. In the next place, he thought that the introduction of French and other foreign manufactures contributed to improve the manufactures of this country, and very often great improvements in point of design, colour, and taste, were thereby effected in British manufactures. In the third place, he believed that, though there might be particular classes of persons who might find distress and inconvenience arise from the introduction of a great quantity of foreign goods, yet their introduction proved a stimulus to the production of other English goods for exportation, in return for those foreign manufactures. Considering, therefore, these three circumstances, in connexion with the change of duties made of late years, he should be the last person to advise Her Majesty to make an alteration of the policy pursued,
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and he very much doubted whether any such advice would be so acceptable to Her Majesty as the noble Lord seemed to intimate.
MR. BRIGHT said, that when the noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) put the question, he doubted whether the name of the Queen ought to have been introduced, for the Lord Chamberlain was a political officer, and whatever was done by him was done under the responsibility of Her Majesty's advisers. He did not attach undue importance to the recommendation in question; but he thought it necessary that the Government and all persons in authority should be cautious about doing anything calculated to spread an erroneous opinion among the working classes, to the effect that their interest would be consulted by hostility towards other countries. They had recently seen, in France, the ill effects of such a feeling in the expulsion of the English workmen. Nothing could be more erroneous and unfortunate than that—nothing less calculated to benefit even the working classes of France themselves—and nothing more calculated to create an ill-feeling between the bulk of the population in France and the bulk of the population in this country. He saw no difference between the working classes of France driving out the English workmen, and the Queen of England and her Ministers advising that the industry of France, in the shape of French silks, should be excluded from this country. [Lord JOHN RUSSELL: There is no order of prohibition.] The noble Lord said that there was no order to that effect. He granted it; but the object of the announcement in question was, that French silks should not be consumed in certain cases, but that English silks should be substituted. Let it be borne in mind that, owing to the late convulsion in France, French silks were very much depressed, and very large quantities had been brought to this country in consequence of their lowness of price. In London there were commercial houses which now had large stocks of these goods, and the announcement which had been referred to might entail loss on men of large capital and of small capital, who had stocks more or less great of French goods in their shops. It was not justice to pretend to do a kindness to the weavers of Spitalfields by a course which must involve others in loss and injury. He was for the fullest freedom to enable all these persons to better themselves by any kind of traffic they chose. On the other hand, he had no ob-

813
jection to a number of noble, titled, but not very wise women, forming an association among themselves against French silks; but he protested against the Government doing anything calculated to create an between this country and other nations, and to foster feelings among the working classes, which must end in disappointment. If from their own honest industry in the public market, the latter could not find custom and employment, they were not likely to obtain it from the patronage of Courts or Ministers.
MR. BANKE S expressed his dissent from the opinion of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), when he stated that Her Majesty's order, which had been referred to, was to be, and would be, construed as an act of retaliation on France for the conduct pursued towards the English workpeople. He was perfectly certain that no such intention existed in the Royal mind, or in the mind of any one who might be responsible for that order, and that neither in this country nor in France would such an impression be created by it. He regretted that it was not issued earlier, for, if it had, he thought it would have had the beneficial effect anticipated by the Royal mind; but he feared that the order had been issued too late for the purpose. Still, if any Member should move an address of thanks to Her Majesty for issuing the order, he should be most happy to second the motion.
MR. HUME thought such a proceeding would be most mischievous; for, if anything was to be deprecated more than another, it was the taking any course calculated to raise between this country and foreign nations.
MR. NEWDEGATE said, that as he represented a constituency which would very materially benefit by Her Majesty's benevolence, he must, in justice to his own feelings, and on their behalf, express his deep sense of gratitude to Her Majesty for the step she had been pleased to take. He could assure the House that the greatest distress had prevailed in the district he represented; and if hon. Gentlemen could have seen, as he had, numbers of men, women, and children sinking under poverty and famine, they would not wonder that he should should rise to express his sense of the gratitude entertained towards Her Majesty by those poor people, who had for months been struggling for a bare subsistence. He certainly thought that of all those acts which graced the reign of Her Majesty, none deserved higher commenda
814
tion than the compassion which Her Majesty had thus innocently, kindly, and opportunely exhibited for the sufferings of Her distressed people.
COLONEL THOMPSON considered that there were other parties interested in this matter besides those who had been referred to. His constituents at Bradford were great makers of waistcoat and pantaloon pieces for foreign consumption; and they said, and seriously believed, that those waistcoats and pantaloons were virtually trucked against the ladies'
petticoats from France. If that were the case, he would ask whether there was any charity, any humanity, any justice, any policy, any common sense, in representing hostility to one portion of the manufacturing classes of the country to come from a quarter of which he was sure no one in that House wished to speak otherwise than with feelings of the utmost affection and reverence. Surely this must have been the doing of some Court Polonius; some man of the black rod, or of the white stick, of rare ingenuity. He could not think it had been the doing of any lady. He had no great confidence in Lords, but he did believe the ladies would have been wiser than to take such a step. Why, there was not a man in England who wore a pair of French gloves who did not know that the produce of English industry had, in some way or other, gone to purchase them. He was told that there was poverty among the masses in Bradford, which it was fearful to behold; and he had seen enough to induce him fully to believe that statement. But was there no poverty in other manufacturing towns? Was there no poverty and suffering in Birmingham? He had the other day asked the two hon. Members for that town whether they had ever heard of anything being manufactured there for foreign consumption, and they said, "Often." They said they believed that many of the manufactures of town were of the very sort which it was intended—in pure innocence of heart, he was sure—to put down by means of an attempt to procure the consumption of English manufactures of another description. He must say he hoped they would in future hear less of the assumption that the way to improve the condition of the people was to put down one half of the industrious classes of the country on the pretence of raising the condition of the other half.
MR. CHRISTOPHER observed, that it had not been his intention to take part in the discussion which had just occupied the

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attention of the House, but for the remarks which had fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for Bradford (Colonel Thompson). He was afraid the hon. Gentleman had not paid due attention to passing events, or he would have arrived at a very different conclusion from that to which he had come—namely, that free trade in woollens was likely to benefit those whom he represented. He wished to mention a fact of which the hon. and gallant Member might not be aware. Within the last three months woollens to the value of 70,447 l. had been imported, free of duty, into the port of London alone, and woollen manufactures, upon which a duty of ten percent was imposed, had been imported during the same period to the value of 15,758 l. Had it not been, therefore, for the measure which had a short time since received the sanction of Parliament, employment might have been afforded to upwards of 9,000 of the hon. and gallant Member's constituents. He (Mr. Christopher) must express his gratification at the command which had just been issued by the Sovereign, and be hoped it would be duly responded to by the country. Whatever effect that command might have, he was sure there was no intention to create any bad feeling between this country and any other. He hoped the example which had been set would be followed not only by persons in high station, but generally throughout the country, and that in this period of commercial distress every effort would be made in the first instance to afford employment to our starving operatives.
LORD J. RUSSELL might be permitted to explain, after what had been said on this subject, that he did not regard the order which had been referred to as of such very great or imperial importance as had been attributed to it by the noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck), or the hon. and gallant Member for Bradford. It certainly was not adopted with a view to injure any other class of men, and still less did this measure bear any similarity to the driving of English workmen from France. It appeared to him more like a case which might very probably happen, where a lady in the country, who usually had her dresses made in London or Paris, finding that the milliners or tradesmen in a neighbouring village were distressed, directed them to furnish the goods, not with any view of injuring either Paris or London, but as an act of kindness to the persons in the immediate neighbourhood of her residence. That, he believed, was the view of the case which had been taken by the Lord Chamberlain.
SIR W. MOLESWORTH considered, that in spite of the explanation of the noble Lord, this was a silly and foolish order; and he was informed, on the best authority, that there was not the slightest chance of its being obeyed.
The MARQUESS of GRANBY wished to express his gratitude to Her Majesty for endeavouring, by the gracious and benevolent order she had just issued, to mitigate the evils which recent legislation had inflicted upon the country. He understood that in the town of Coventry, within seven weeks, 40,000 loaves of bread had been distributed to the starving people. He believed that the order issued by Her Majesty would elicit an almost universal feeling of gratitude throughout the country.
Subject at an end.

THE NAVAL DOCKYARDS.
MR. MACGREGOR said, that in rising to bring forward the Motion of which he had given notice, he begged to assure the House, that he was influenced by no other motive than a sense of public duty. He never would consent to any measure which would enfeeble our maritime strength; but he must express his opinion that the expenditure upon the naval dockyards might be very considerably reduced without diminishing the naval power of this country. He considered that there had been a great want of economy in the expenditure upon the building and altering many ships of war; and that if the system which had been pursued in the naval dockyards had been Adopted in the yard of any private shipbuilder, it would have been attended with absolute ruin. He admitted that great improvements had been made in some dockyards, especially at Woolwich, Portsmouth, mid Sheerness; but the greater number of slips built under the superintendence of the late Surveyor of the Navy had required frequent alterations, which had been attended with very considerable and most unjustifiable expense. The ships constructed according to the plans of the late Surveyor had cost, or would cost, above 1,500,000 l.; and although he would not deny that many of those ships were magnificent in appearance, and would prove, if engaged, formidable in war, yet the expense of alterations, if even these were complete, was unnecessary if blunders had not been committed in their original plan and construction. The hon. Member then read some statements with reference to the Queen, the Albion,

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the Superb, the Vanguard, and other ships, with regard to which most erroneous calculations had been made, and which had cost very considerable sums for alterations; the alterations and repairs of the Union alone, a 98-gun ship, had entailed on the country an expense of 45,000 l. Some time ago it was considered that great advantage might be derived from altering some of the old 74-gun ships to screw ships; and he believed, as far as regarded the Blenheim, and one or two other ships, most useless expense was incurred upon that head. With respect to Devonport, a plan was submitted to the Admiralty of either forming a new dock or a new basin: there was now a plan for an open basin; but it was supposed to be liable to great objections, and it was said that the expense would be enormous, at least 300,000 l. if persevered in, and that it would even with that outlay be utterly inefficient. Now, if an inquiry were made into the whole expenditure of the dockyards from 1832 to the present time, he (Mr. Macgregor) believed it would be found that one-third of the money might have been saved to the country. He (Mr. Macgregor) regretted that the subject should have fallen into the hands of one so little practised in addressing the House; but with the prospect of a deficiency of 2,000,000 l. or 3,000,000 l., including the deficiency in January last, of revenue in the year which would end the 5th of January, 1849, unless it should be provided for by the forthcoming budget, he could not, with his apprehensions for the public credit, and with his knowledge of our oppressive taxation, refrain from bringing the matter under consideration. He could enter into more startling particulars with regard to wasteful expense in our dockyards; but with the confidence he had in the first Lord of the Admiralty, and the economy which necessity would impose on the Government, he would hope that something effectual in retrenching wasteful outlay would be done. without trenching upon the efficiency of the Navy. It was disagreeable to his (Mr. Macgregor's) feelings to bring forward a question that might be considered invidious with respect to our justly most venerated and admired establishments. No doubt this was a tender and delicate subject. No sentiment was more cherished than that
"Britannia is rules the waves;"
and nothing would have induced him to move in the matter but the belief that we
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could greatly diminish our naval expenditure, and at the same time render our force sufficient to cope with all the naval forces in the world. With regard to Deptford dockyard, the increasing commerce of the Thames would at no very distant period require all the room that could be had betwixt Woolwich and London Bridge—nay, more, we might have to enlarge our space, so as to have room enough, at Woolwich, Sheerness, Portsmouth, Devonport, and Pembroke, for all naval purposes. The old system must be given up with respect to training and bringing up those who were to be intrusted with the management of the dockyards. He was very far from wanting confidence in the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty, and in the hon. Member for Sheffield, and those who acted with them; but, from want of time, or from some cause or other, they had not, he feared, as yet fully gone into the subject. Cunard's and other steamships of private individuals did not require such alterations as those in the Royal Navy. The contractors were bound to render them in every respect efficient. It was notorious that our men-of-war steamships had turned out to a great degree failures; and the vessel which might have been expected to be most perfect of all—Her Majesty's Yacht—had been one of the most unmanageable steamers. Even the Sidon was complained of as a crank ship. The Terrible and a few others were efficient and formidable; and he must do Mr. Laing, the master shipwright, the full justice to say, that the Prince Albert, 120 guns, a frigate of 50 guns, and a steamship, all raised on the stocks at Woolwich, would prove, he believed, superior to any ships of the same size in any navy in the world. He was not asking for a reduction of our naval power, but to have it rendered efficient at less expense. The most formidable power we could wield against any other country must be one maintained with economy, not with extravagance; and public opinion was now demanding economy in every branch of the expenditure. The people of this country were enduring the burden of taxation with less ability to bear it than for many years past. The hon. Member than moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the management and expenditure of the naval dockyards of this country.
MR. WARD felt it his duty to oppose the Motion. He had no want of sympathy

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with the hon. Member as to the necessity of the most rigid economy consistent with the efficiency of the service; but he would put it to the House whether a weaker case was ever submitted as the ground for instituting an inquiry into a great branch of the public service. The hon. Member seemed to suppose that the subject was not under consideration; strangely forgetting that a Committee had been sitting for some weeks, whom no department of the Naval Expenditure had escaped, from whom no one fact had been withheld, and which comprised men of great experience and ability. When the hon. Member came to read the evidence taken before that Committee, he would see that there could be no use whatever in instituting a second inquiry upon a subject which had already been investigated with the utmost care. And what were the grounds stated by the hon. Member? He (Mr. Ward) would not pretend to follow the hon. Member into his bill of indictment against the late Surveyor of the Navy; the House had had the story of Sir William Symonds' successes and failures over and over again. Naval men themselves had differed upon that subject, and held very extreme and opposite opinions. The truth probably lay somewhere in the juste milieu; and he had himself come to the conclusion that while Sir William Symonds had certainly introduced great improvements, some things were done with a disregard of expense which no one would wish to see repeated. Every possible precaution that could be suggested had been taken by the late and present Boards of Admiralty to prevent any of that rash and precipitate expenditure, and to avoid any necessity for those experimental alterations of ships against which the hon. Member protested. Every proposal now went through a long and somewhat tedious process of examination before any order was made upon it. The hon. Member next alluded to the subject of the basin of Devonport. There could be no stronger instance of the care and precaution taken by the Government. A plan had been adopted and persevered in for several years; but a doubt having been suggested with regard to its success, the Government had thought it right to institute a most searching inquiry in consequence, and they had as yet come to no decision. The hon. Member said there was a wasteful expenditure going on in the dockyards, and that a diminution was possible. Why, it was not only possible, but promised—pro-
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mised in the Estimates of next year, and to the extent of full 600,000 l. As soon as the Admiralty could see the way clear, it was their anxious desire to extend still further those reductions, which he himself did not wish made with any detriment to the service. The hon. Member suggested that Deptford dockyard might be abolished; but where was the substitute to be found? Not at Woolwich, nor yet at Sheerness, as the hon. Member had suggested, for not one inch of building ground could be found there, the whole of the existing buildings being supported by piles sunk at an enormous expense. As to the system of promotion in the dockyards, the Government had laid down a rule, by which they renounced their patronage, and made preferment the reward of merit tested by the severest examination; so as to give fair play to all, and not to shut out the younger men, whose genius might point them out as likely to insure a succession of officers worthy of the high and responsible duties which they had to discharge. The hon. Member suggested that the Government might learn something from the success which attended contracts connected with the merchant service; but there was a great difference between a merchant vessel and a ship of war. In the former the builder had ample scope, and could place his machinery where he pleased; but in a war steamer the great object was to compress the machinery, and even keep it below water. Besides, it was not true that no war steamer had been found fit for the voyages which merchant steamers had performed. The steam-vessels Terrible and Fury had proved eminently successful; the Later had steamed to Hongkong and back, encountering the monsoon during her voyage, without the slightest repair being required. At present the shipbuilding department was going on well. The notion that the ships for the Navy could be built by contract was preposterous. What private merchant could afford to keep a stock of seasoned timber always on hand for the chance of obtaining a contract to build a ship for the Government? There were no fewer than 60,000 loads of seasoned timber stored in the dockyards; and if that stock should not be kept up, vessels would be badly built, as they were formerly. because their durability depended upon the goodness of the timber. The first outlay for ships built by contract might be somewhat less than for those built

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in the dockyards; but the expenditure for repairs on the former was usually enormous. An example would suffice to make the House acquainted with the difference in original cost and subsequent repairs between vessels built in the dockyards and those built in private yards:—

The Petrel (built in dockyard) cost

£8,219

Repairs in 8 years

1,314

Annual cost

164

The Ranger (built by contract) cost

7,020

Repairs in 8 years

8,225

Annual cost

914

The Penguin (dockyard) cost

8,386

Repairs in 8 years

1,540

Annual cost

192

The Alert (contract) cost

7,478

Repairs in 7 years

5,163

Annual cost

737

The hon. Gentleman concluded by expressing a hope that he had succeeded in convincing the House that it was unnecessary to accede to the Motion of the hon. Memfor Glasgow.
VISCOUNT INGESTRE would take that opportunity of asking the Government for information on a subject of great importance. The office of Surveyor of the Navy had recently been filled up by a gallant and distinguished officer; and it was understood that the duties of the office were to be reconstructed and altered. It would be, therefore, very desirable if the Secretary of the Admiralty would state to the House what those duties were, and in what particulars these alterations had been introduced. Hitherto the duties of that office had been ill-defined and worse executed. The Board of Reference had been some check on the extravagant expenditure on changes and alterations of plans and ships; and he stated at the time when the appointment of the board took place, that he thought it a step in the right direction. He still entertained that opinion, and was sure that every man acquainted with the service would admit the Committee of Reference had performed their duties well and ably, and had done good service to the country. When he heard, therefore, that the late Board of Admiralty appointed a similar Committee, he was glad of it, and he thought their example might be followed with advantage by their successors. He had heard it recently stated that the Committee was broken up, or about to be dissolved, and he was, therefore, desirous of knowing, should this statement prove correct, what substitute the Admiralty proposed to establish. He quite approved of the appointment of so distinguished an officer as Sir
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Baldwin Walker to the post of Surveyor of the Navy; but he hoped to hear the gallant gentleman would have sufficient advice at his command, that he might not fall into the errors of his predecessors. He had often pressed on the Admiralty the necessity of appointing a board of scientific men to assist them. Sooner or later they would have to do so, or fail in the performance of their duties, for with the present march of science it was absolutely necessary to have men of high attainments to whom the Board should refer new plans and inventions for their opinion. Such an institution would, he was convinced, be attended with the greatest advantage to the Board, to the service, and to the country. He quite agreed with what had fallen from the hon. Secretary (Mr. Ward) with respect to vessels built by contract, and he was only surprised to hear that recently some vessels had been built in merchants' dockyards. He did not see why we should have recourse to private establishments at all, more especially in times of peace, when we possessed such dockyards as those of Portsmouth, Chatham, Devonport, and Milford. Before he sat down he could not but express his opinion that the country had been deeply indebted to the members of the School of Naval Architecture. He had always advocated their claims, and he heard of the dissolution of the school with regret, inasmuch as he believed the institution to have been most useful and meritorious. In conclusion he hoped the hon. Member would not press his Motion to a division, but would give way to the sense of the House.
ADMIRAL DUNDAS was understood to say that the Board of Admiralty would lay before the House papers containing the information required by the noble Lord who had last addressed them. The only ships recently built in private yards were the packets for the Holyhead mail service.
CAPTAIN HARRIS quite agreed with the noble Lord, and the Secretary to the Admiralty, that it was a mistake to suppose the country gained any advantage by contract built vessels or contract work. A reference to the extravagant outlay entailed on the country during the late war by the contract system, would convince hon. Members that doing away with any of our dockyard establishments (as bad been suggested respecting Deptford) would be rash and ill-advised retrenchment. No one could say how soon the country might be called on for a development of her na-

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Val power; and were she thrown upon the merchant yards for the construction of ships, a ruinous expenditure would result from these apparently economical reforms. He did not agree with those who contended that the late Surveyor of the Navy had been unsuccessful; for he entertained a very different opinion. He would not go into details upon this part of the subject, which had been fully discussed on the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose last Session, and which had ended in a triumphant issue for Sir W. Symonds; but he must remark that he considered that gallant officer fully entitled to a retiring pension equal in amount to that of his predecessors. Sir Robert Seppings had been a zealous servant to the Crown; but the genius of Symonds had furnished the country with some of the finest ships that ever floated in any sea. The present Motion was altogether uncalled for, and no reason had been shown why it should be granted, and he should therefore give it his opposition.
MR. HUME concurred with much that had fallen from the hon. Member for Glasgow with respect to the lavish expenditure that had taken place in altering and changing vessels without rhyme or reason, and often without giving them a trial; but he believed the present Government were taking steps to do away with the system and prevent its recurrence. He was satisfied, however, that very soon they would have to institute a specific inquiry into the interior arrangements of the dockyard establishments. A Committee had been recently appointed on the subject of naval expenditure, on which were many Gentlemen perfectly aware of the nature of the questions which the hon. Member had laid before the House. He hoped, therefore, that he would withdraw his Motion, and leave to the Committee the task of inquiring into those matters. If they left anything undone, the hon. Member could bring the question again before the House; but meantime let him give them fair play, and not press his Motion to a division. He could assure the noble Lord near him, and hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite, that there was no one branch of the public service which he was so anxious to see really efficient as the Navy, and that there was not in the House a man more willing than himself to vote every sum or agree to every expenditure necessary to sustain it on a liberal and effective scale.
CAPTAIN PECHELL said, if he did not
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believe the Board of Admiralty to be sincere in their desire to effect those improvements which the country called for, and which many hon. Members had pledged themselves to support, he would certainly take a very different course from that which he now thought necessary, and would support the Motion of the hon. Gentleman; but lie believed that the inquiry now going on would lead to very beneficial reforms. With regard to the duties which were to be performed by the Surveyor of the Navy, an extreme anxiety existed on the part of the naval profession as to what they really were. He hoped that a copy of the warrant issued to Sir Baldwin Walker would be published, in order that it might be known what were the services to be expected from that able and excellent officer.
Motion withdrawn.

OUR RELATIONS WITH PORTUGAL.
MR. URQUHART rose to move, in pursuance of notice—
"That an address be presented to Her Majesty representing that the intervention undertaken in Her name in Portugal was unlawful, and praying Her Majesty to forbid the continuation of this or the repetition of similar measures by Her servants."
The hon. Gentleman said, that considering the general disinclination a the House—a disinclination which he was far from deeming just, but to which, nevertheless, he bowed, and under which he comported himself as best he might—to Listen to the discussion of any of those subjects which were called by the name of foreign affairs, and observing the want of attendance of hon. Members, he should confine himself to the very smallest space in which he could state the substantive object of his Motion. The proposition which he had to bring forward was one which, in his opinion, addressed itself to the best sympathies of the House. Such was the state of affairs in Europe, that the;greatest delicacy was required in handling matters which might become the elements of discord. When he put his notice on the books of the House, he did so without any concert with any party—he did so simply to enforce the proposition, that the proceedings in which we were engaged with respect to Portugal were illegal. Perceiving that but a few moments would be afforded him for addressing the House, he would in the briefest space refer to the doctrines held in this country in former

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times in respect to Portugal, and of our connexion with that country. Two debates had occurred in that House on that subject, one of which was remarkable for a speech made by the noble Lord now at the head of the Foreign Department, in which he took the opportunity of recording his strongest censure of such proceedings as those in which this country had been recently involved. The ability which the noble Lord had on that occasion displayed was understood to be the determining cause of his filling the high office which he had since almost uninterruptedly continued to hold. The other debate occurred at the end of last Session, when that same high public functionary had to justify the very acts which he had before condemned; and when another distinguished statesman was found justifying the noble Lord on the ground—not that the principle was correct, but that the Government of this country having been once engaged in its application—it was impossible for it to withdraw from the course in which it was involved. The first debate took place on the 1st of June, 1829, when the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth defended the policy of the then Government; and in the course of that defence he thus stated the case with respect to Portugal, in reply to the speech of Sir J. Mackintosh:—
"The right hot Gentleman (observed Sir R. Peel) had stated that by a series of treaties, England was bound to protect the integrity and independence of the Portuguese territories. That statement was correct; but he denied that, either in the letter or in the spirit of those treaties, or in any engagement or obligation entered into by Great Britain, there was conveyed a guarantee of the succession of any particular individual, or a guarantee of the existence of any political institution in Portugal."
He would hurry on, seeing he had but a very little more time in which to speak, and come at once to the fact of our intervention last year in the affairs of Portugal. It was enough for him to say, that in the debate to which he had referred, among all the speakers—and there were many of great power, eminent as politicians and as constitutional lawyers—there was but one consenting voice raised in concurrence wilt the energetically expressed sentiments of the noble Lord opposite, that "the principle of non-intervention was just, and ought to be held sacred, and the noble Lord trusted that England would never be found giving her sanction to its infraction."
MR. ELLIOT observed, that the subject was of too great importance to be discussed in so thin a House, and moved that the House be counted.
Thirty-seven Members only being present, the House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock.