Commons Sitting of 25 November 1847

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Ashley, from Suffolk, Mr. Frewen, from Elgin, Mr. Goring, from Sussex, Sir R. H. Inglis, from Chatham, and Mr. Littleton, from Stafford, against the Removal of Jewish Disabilities.

EDINBURGH ELECTION.
MR. SPEAKERinformed the House that he had received the following letter from Mr. Cowan, one of the Gentlemen returned at the last election for the city of Edinburgh:—
"House of Commons, Nov. 19, 1847.
"Sir—I beg respectfully to state, that at the recent Election I had the honour to be chosen one of the Representatives in Parliament for the City of Edinburgh. It was not until some time afterwards that I became aware of a disqualification attaching to me, from my having, at the time of Election, been a party to a contract then subsisting with Her Majesty's Stationery Office. I apprehend, therefore, that I was 'unduly elected,' and that, although I am no longer a Government contractor, I should nevertheless be liable to actions for heavy pecuniary penalties if I should now sit or vote in the House. While I entertain the ut-
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most deference for the authority of the House, and while I have no desire to shrink from the discharge of the duties which I owe to my constituents, the position to which I have referred renders it necessary, in the opinion of my advisers, that I should decline to take the oaths or my seat; and I have respectfully to request that you will, as early as convenient, have the goodness to communicate this my intention and desire to the House of Commons.
"I have the honour to be, Sir, with great respect, your very obedient servant,
"CHARLES COWAN.
"The Right Hon. the Speaker of the House of Commons."

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. BROTHERTONsaid, he wished to offer a suggestion to the House which would materially promote the public business. Would it not be expedient that, until after the Christmas holidays, Orders of the Day should take precedence of Notices? No Member, he was sure, wished to stay in town at this season of the year; but whilst they were there, they ought to confine their attention to public business of the greatest importance. If his suggestion were adopted, public business would be expedited, and the convenience of Members promoted.

THE BANK OF ENGLAND.
MR. HINDLEY MR. HINDLEY moved for a return of the minimum rate of discount charged by the Bank of England since the Act of 1844.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, there was not the least objection to furnishing this information.
MR. F. T. BARINGsuggested, that, as there would be much discussion concerning the Bank, in which many papers would be required, it would be desirable to have the whole information given at once. This course would save a great deal of inconvenience, not only in the pending discussions, but to everybody who might hereafter have to refer to the debates.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERwas desirous of giving the House the fullest information upon the subject; but his notion was, that the first duty of the Committee, which he should have the honour to move for on Tuesday, would be to determine what information would be proper to require from the Bank. He was perfectly ready to communicate beforehand with the Governor and Deputy Governor in order to obtain that information which was likely to throw the fullest light upon the subject; but he did not like to take upon himself to say what information should be

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laid on the table, because he conceived it would be better for a Committee to decide what they would require. The information moved for by the hon. Member ought to be given; but it had not been usual for that House to order any returns from the Bank of England, except those which by law the Bank was compelled to make, without previous communication with the Governor and Deputy Governor.
Return ordered.

ENTAILED ESTATES (SCOTLAND).
MR. B. COCHRANEasked whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any measure for the relief of entailed proprietors in Scotland?
SIR G. GREYreplied, that a Bill for this purpose was in an advanced state of preparation, which he hoped would be introduced shortly after the recess.

LAW OF SETTLEMENT.
SIR J. PAKINGTONasked the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any measure this Session for altering the laws of settlement of the poor.
SIR G. GREYreplied, that at present it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce such a measure; but in stating this, he did not preclude himself from taking any course in future which might lead to a satisfactory settlement of the question.

BRIBERY AND CORRUPTION.
SIR J. PAKINGTONasked whether Her Majesty's Government intended to take any proceedings in that House in the course of the present Session in consequence of the extent to which bribery and corruption were imputed to have prevailed at the late general election.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLreplied, that the Government had no such intention.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES AND DISABILITIES.
MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEY MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEY moved for leave to bring in two Bills; the first to amend the laws relating to Roman Catholic charities, and the second for the further repeal of penal enactments against Roman Catholics on account of their religion. The first of these Bills related principally to Roman Catholic charity trusts. Down to a very recent period, the law of supersti-
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tious uses and the laws resulting from it declared it to be illegal to make any endowment for the promotion of the Roman Catholic religion. The enactments by which relief was given subsequently, took away some of the stigmas under which Roman Catholics laboured; but with respect to their charities, there was considerable doubt as to the retrospective effect of those relief Acts, in consequence of a decision of the present Lord Chancellor of England, that charities—by which he meant chapels, schools, and colleges of every description, endowed for the support of the Roman Catholic religion—if founded when the law of superstitious uses was in force, were at this day liable to forfeiture. He proposed by this Bill to enable Roman Catholics, for the first time, to seek in the courts temporal the due administration of their charitable trusts. At this moment they were entirely at the mercy of their trustees; the trustees might be guilty of any amount of maladministration, without the Roman Catholics, for whose benefit the trust was created, daring to seek relief, because the issue of an application with that object might be a declaration that the charity was ab initio illegal, and continued illegal. This was felt to be an injury by Roman Catholics; and though they had long been sensible of it, they had neglected to apply for relief. But now that the Lord Chancellor had signified his intention to bring in a Bill for the better administration of charitable trusts, and for the discovery of all trusts, secret and public, Roman Catholic and Protestant, the Roman Catholics (in whose name he had the honour to appear) had naturally taken the alarm, and in their name he proposed this Bill, which would have all the effects proposed by the Lord Chancellor with regard to Protestant charities, and get rid of the great injustice from which Roman Catholics had so long suffered. If the Lord Chancellor's Bill were to pass at this moment, the immediate result would be the forfeiture of forty-nine out of every hundred of the Roman Catholic charities in England and Wales. He was satisfied this was not the intention of the noble and learned Lord, though the noble and learned Lord's Bill would have this effect. The Roman Catholics had no desire to screen their charities from the fullest investigation; and they were quite willing to leave to the courts temporal the administration of their trusts. In short, he only proposed to extend the provisions of Sir Samuel

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Romilly's Act. The second Bill was the same as that introduced by Mr. Watson in the last Session; its main provisions must, therefore, be known to hon. Members, and he should not detain the House by explaining them. The hon. and learned Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws relating to the charities of Roman Catholics.
SIR G. GREYwould not interpose any obstacle to the introduction of the Bill; but he apprehended the hon. and learned Member would find more difficulty than he anticipated in its progress. A Bill of a similar character had been introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Devonport (Mr. Romilly), and withdrawn on finding it was so much opposed to the wishes and feelings of the persons it was intended to benefit. In consenting, therefore, to the introduction of the Bill, he did not pledge himself to do more than give to it a fair consideration. As to the Bill for the removal of disabilities, he had no objection to the introduction.
SIR R. H. INGLISapprehended that some of the laws which the hon. and learned Member proposed to repeal, were the laws of mortmain. In other words, the hon. and learned Gentleman, in a Bill which he limited expressly to the case of Roman Catholics, proposed to repeal the laws of mortmain in their favour. Her Majesty's Government would do well to instruct the law officers of the Crown to watch this Bill, to see whether, in point of fact, it did not greatly hazard the constitutional axioms relating to the supremacy of the Crown. He would take the opportunity of stating, that whereas hon. Members of that House talked of the claims and grievances of the Roman Catholics, and that the very title of the Bill of last year was copied from one used eighteen years ago, namely, "A Bill for the Removal of Roman Catholic Disabilities," the Church of Rome was upon the aggressive in England, and he believed in every other country in Europe. And he asked Her Majesty's Government to be prepared, when this Bill was brought in, to answer this question, which he would then put, "By what authority has the Church of Rome been permitted to create independent dioceses in provinces within Her Majesty's dominions?" And he begged to ask whether there had been any instance in which the Church of Rome had been allowed to exercise that authority in the dominions of any Ro-
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man Catholic prince known within the boundaries of Europe? He believed that although the instance he had referred to had taken place beyond the boundaries of Europe, still by the same principle the appointing of Roman Catholic bishoprics would extend even to England and to France. He wished the Government to state whether the consent of Her Majesty or Her predecessors had ever been given to the creation of independent bishoprics within the dominions of Her Majesty in any part of the world? He begged to assure the hon. and learned Gentleman, that, entertaining all his original objections to the measure introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Devonport (Mr. Romilly), and having still stronger objections to the measure of Mr. Watson, he should consider it his duty to continue to oppose those and similar Bills as much as he had ever done upon previous occasions.
MR. HUMEsaid, the House should be on its guard against the observations of the hon. Baronet who had just sat down, who had introduced subjects perfectly separate and distinct from the question before the House. The Bill, as he understood it, was intended to place Roman Catholic charitable property on the same footing as Protestant charitable property; and he did think that the time was come when the House ought to place their Roman Catholic brethren upon the same footing in that respect with the Protestants. That he understood from the hon. and learned Gentleman himself was the intention of the Bill; and so far from expecting opposition to it, he trusted it would receive the support of individuals of great weight in that House who had upon former occasions stated their opinion that all discriminating and oppressive laws with regard to Roman Catholics should be removed, and that they should be placed on an equality with Protestants. He was most happy for these reasons to support the Bill, in order to render justice to the Roman Catholics of this country.
The EARL of ARUNDEL AND SURREYwished the hon. and learned Member for Youghal not to suppose that by his silence he was prepared to support the Bill. After he had seen it he would determine what course to take.—Leave given.

CAPTAIN MORRIS AND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CLERGY OF CASHEL.
MR. MAHERrose, pursuant to notice, to move—

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"For Copies of Correspondence between the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and the Roman Catholic Clergy of the Diocese of Cashel, relative to Reports made by Captain Morris, a Government Inspector under the Board of Works in Ireland, reflecting upon the Character of certain of the Catholic Clergy of that Diocese."
Having been chairman of the Thurles and Moycarty relief committees in the county of Tipperary, he had an opportunity of witnessing the excellent conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy and their zeal in the discharge of their onerous duties. They were at the commencement ably assisted by the Protestant clergy, with whom they co-operated in the most friendly spirit, It unfortunately happened, however, that Captain Morris, the Government inspector, acting under some unfounded notion, and believing the assertion of some insidious person, succeeded in separating those bodies of clergymen by means of a report to the Commissioners, an extract from which he begged leave to read to the House. It was as follows:—
"The leading members of many of the committees are priests; they have no landed property, and, consequently, have no interest in keeping down taxation; but, on the contrary, have an interest in enabling their flocks to pay them their dues. Some of the resident gentry, from disgust at their proceedings, rarely attend the committee: and others who do are afraid to perform their duty; for if they object to improper persons being put upon the list, the small farmers, who are also found upon the committees, and who are only one degree removed from those employed on public works, soon let it be known out of doors who were the members of the committee who prevented their friends being returned."
He believed that to be a libel, and the best proof that it was a libel was that the committee met in a body, and that they memorialised the Lord Lieutenant to inquire into the assertions made by Captain Morris. They asked the Government to send down a Queen's Counsel, or desire Mr. Gore Jones, the resident magistrate in the town of Thurles, to investigate the matter, and to call on Captain Morris to prove the assertions he had made. That request on the part of the committee was refused. That libel was recorded on the journals of that House; and as it was competent for any Member of the House to have recourse to those records, and therefore to charge the Roman Catholic clergy with the improper conduct imputed to them, he required that the other side of the case should be also upon their records, that the bane should be accompanied by the antidote, and that the denial of the clergy of the crime laid to their charge, and their
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demand for an investigation, should be laid upon the table of the House. With this view he begged to submit the Motion which he had read.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, as he had the honour of holding the situation of Secretary for Ireland at the time the correspondence which had been moved for took place, perhaps he might be excused for troubling the House with a few observations on the subject. The facts of the case had been stated clearly and correctly by his hon. Friend who had just sat down. Captain Morris was one of the officers sent down to superintend the distribution of relief in the county of Tipperary. In the discharge of that duty he made a report to the Government of Ireland, and that report was inserted in one of the blue books which had been laid upon the table of the House. He had no hesitation in saying, that owing to the great mass of documents included in those books, expressions had found their way into some of those reports which, whilst he thought it perfectly justifiable for the officers making those reports to send them to the Lord Lieutenant, it would have been better on the whole not to have made public. He had no hesitation in making that avowal. There was a phrase in the report of Captain Morris which implied that some of the Catholic clergy of the county of Tipperary had not done their duty in assisting the Government to check abuses in the distribution of relief. That report was complained of by the Roman Catholic clergy. The House must remember, however, that the charge was made in general terms—no individual charge was preferred. What the Roman Catholic clergy required in their memorial was, that an inquiry should be made, and that the particular clergyman alluded to should be made known. The Government of Ireland believed that no good would result from such an inquiry; and he concurred in that view. At the same time Captain Morris was written to. He stated in reply that nothing was further from his intention than to bring a general charge against the Roman Catholic clergy—on the contrary, that they had acted in a proper manner in supporting the views of the Government; but he added, that in any large class of persons it was almost always the case that some might be guilty of improper conduct, and he said that there were individual clergy of whose conduct he could not approve. Now be asked the House, he asked his hon. Friend,

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whether a case of that description should be gone into officially by the Government. He was sure those hon. Members who sat on the Committee last Session, when the name of Captain Wynne was mentioned, would agree with him that no advantage would result from inquiry into every particular case of this description. He assured his hon. Friend that nothing was further from the intentions of the Government than to cast any slight upon the Roman Catholic clergy generally, or on those of Tipperary in particular. On the contrary, from the Roman Catholic clergy as a body, the Government did receive the most valuable assistance, both in relieving the distress of the people, and in preserving the peace of the country. No cases of individual misconduct should ever prevent him stating in the strongest manner his opinion of the admirable conduct generally of the Roman Catholic clergy. They might blame individuals, but he should never forget, and he trusted that the House and the country never would forget, what they owed to the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland as a body, under circumstances of the most trying and difficult description. He had no objection to lay the correspondence on the table of the House.
MR. J. O'CONNELLthanked the right hon. Gentleman for producing the correspondence. He trusted that in future they should be saved from such very reckless attacks appearing in the public records of that House.—Motion agreed to.

EXCISE LAWS.
MR. HUMEinquired of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it were the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any measure with the view of altering and amending the present Excise laws?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the head of the Excise Department had directed his attention to that subject towards the conclusion of last Session, and had, he believed, been occupied with it ever since; and had employed some of the most experienced officers of the board on the subject. He would not say it was his intention, but he might almost say it was his wish and his hope to introduce a measure in the course of the Session for the removal of all restrictions bearing injuriously on trade, and not necessary for the collection of the revenue.
House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock.