Commons Sitting of 6 May 1847

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Captain Gladstone and other hon. Members, from several places, for Alteration of the Law of Marriage.—By Mr. H. Baillie, from Members of the Parochial Board of the United Parishes of Daviot and Dunlichity, and Mr. F. Dundas, from the Presbytery of Cairston. against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. W. Denison, from Peckham, for Inquiry respecting the Rajah of Sattara.—By Mr. Bright, from Bridgewater, against the Use of Grain in Breweries and Distilleries.—By Mr. C. Berkeley and other hon. Members, from several places, for Regulating the Qualification of Chemists and Druggists.—By Mr. Bright, from several places, against, and Mr. Divert, from Members of the Exeter Reform Association, in favour of, the proposed Plan of Education.—By Sir W. Clay and other hon. Members, from several places, for and against the Health of Towns Bill.—By Mr. Forbes, from the County of Stirling, and Mr. Fox Maule, from Perth, in favour of the Heritable Securities
462
for Debt (Scotland); Burgage Tenure (Scotland); Transference of Land (Scotland); Service of Heirs (Scotland); and Crown Charters (Scotland) Bills.—By several hon. Members, from a great many places, in favour of the Medical Registration and Medical Law Amendment Bill—By Mr. Barclay, from Sunderland, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Lord J. Russell, from Kingston-upon-Hull, for an Efficient Poor Law (Ireland).—By Mr. Lefroy, from Clergy of the Diocese of Ardagh, for Alteration of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. Goulburn, from Guardians of the Reigate Union, and Mr. Maunsell, from Guardians of the Brixworth Union, for Repeal or Alteration of the Poor Removal Act.—By Mr. F. Dundas and other hon. Members, from several places, against the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill; and Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. Wodehouse, from Guardians of the Aylsham Union, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement.—By Sir F. Thesiger, from George Drew, of Bermondsey, for Inquiry respecting the Small Debts Act.—By Mr. E. Vivian, from Truro, against the Towns Improvement Clauses Bill.

MR. BUTT.
MR. FERRANDinquired of the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey), whether it was the intention of the Government, or whether it would be in the power of the Government, to return to Mr. Butt the fine paid by him many years ago, under a prosecution, for having been concerned in spreading false news of the death of Napoleon Bonaparte?
SIR G. GREYsaid, the hon. Member having given him notice of the question, he had made inquiries on the subject, He found that some years ago Mr. Butt had applied to the then Secretary of State for a return of the fine, on the ground that Lord Cochrane had been restored to his rank and half-pay, but the Secretary of State had not thought fit to grant his request. He was afraid he could not hold out any hope of being able to return the fine.

SALE, &c, OF ARMS IN IRELAND.
SIR W. VERNERrose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of Her Majesty's Ministers to the sale and importation of firearms in Ireland. He begged to remind the House, that when the noble Lord introduced his measures relative to Ireland, he had taken occasion to mention a circumstance which had created great alarm in Ireland; namely, the importation and unprecedented sale of firearms. He then mentioned one or two instances which had come under his own immediate knowledge, and for the accuracy of which he could vouch. The one was the sale of 1,000 stand of arms in one district in the county in which he (Sir W. Verner) resided. The other was the sale of 100,000lb. weight of ammunition in a single day (a market-day) in a small town near his resi-

463
dence, it being added, that had there been double the quantity it could have been easily disposed of. Another case that had been mentioned was that of a man who, having come to pay his rent, and having had 2l.. restored to him to purchase provisions with for his family, his observation was, that he could buy a very good gun with it. No notice had been taken by the Government of his statements; and he was anxious not to be supposed to have circulated without cause statements likely to create so much alarm. The matter bad, however, since assumed so serious a shape, that he felt himself, in his own defence, called on to bring before that House substantial proof that he was justified in the observations he had made. Before doing so, however, he desired to make one or two references to a measure which passed that House in 1843, called the Arms Bill. By that Act it was provided that no arms should be imported into Ireland, except under the license of the Lord Lieutenant, under a penalty of 50 l., and a like penalty was imposed on the manufacture of arms within the country. By another clause it was not only required that the arms should be registered, but also that they should be branded. That Bill was passed in consequence of most serious representations to the Government, and it was founded on a body of the most conclusive evidence as to its necessity. The letters of Colonel Macgregor, and the reports of the constabulary in Ireland, had induced the Government at the time to call on the House to agree to the Bill. The measure, however, met with very great opposition. There was scarcely any Bill on record that had met with more. No less than seven Members of that House declared their determination to oppose it at every stage. Some said they would oppose it clause by clause; and one Member said, he would oppose it even word by word. At every stage of the Bill this opposition was continued. The Bill was introduced early in the Session; it was not read a third time till the 9th of August, and it did not receive the Royal Assent till the 22nd, two days only before Parliament was prorogued. Thus it took from near the commencement of the Session to the very close to pass that Bill into a law. If the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), in the face of the greatest opposition that perhaps a Bill ever received, felt it incumbent upon him to pass this measure, was not such a measure ten times more necessary at present? Was it wisdom on the
464
part of any Government to place arms in the hands of a starving people? Or would a people starve with arms in their hands? The people of Ireland were now becoming an armed population. A private letter which he had received from Queen's County, said—
"As I see you intend to bring the matter respecting arms before the House, I beg to take the liberty of stating, that the consequences will be most disastrous if the unlicensed sale of them be allowed any longer; and some means must be taken to prevent the assassin from using those already purchased by the peasantry. A most atrocious murder, I may say (as the victim is without hopes), was committed near Portarlington on Sunday night. John Wilson, Esq., of Killeen, had dined with a neighbouring gentleman (who lives only two fields from Mr. Wilson), and when a short distance from the house, going over a stile, a shot was fired at him, and three small bullets entered his breast, and were subsequently cut out behind the shoulder. Mr. Wilson is not a landlord or agent, but merely wished to prevent a path being made through his yard. On Thursday last a large quantity of arms was auctioned under the county inspector's lodgings, Tullamore, and every fellow is provided with some Birmingham manufacture. I myself saw a tall lad point out a long fusil to his comrade and say, 'There's a receipt for the hanging gale.'"
The county of Tipperary was one in which the greatest distress existed, and yet arms were sold to a greater extent than in any county in Ireland. The head constable of Clonmel, in a report submitted to the county inspector, said—
"I have to report that the under named persons have recently imported a large supply of guns, blunderbusses, and pistols, swords, and bayonets, which they are now disposing of to the public in this town at prices varying from 2s. 6d. to 30 s. Four of those dealers sell by public auction in the streets, on fair-days and market-days; and it appears that the manufacturers of arms in Birmingham are not able to meet the demands made on them by purchasers from this country; in consequence of which, most of the arms now offered for sale have been procured from the different pawn-offices in London, and are of a second-hand description. The persons who usually purchase from the vendors are generally the lowest class of country people and servant boys; and persons labouring on the public works have been known to buy pistols from their weekly earnings."
The Rev. Robert Carey, who described himself as a "consistent adherent of Whiggism," wrote as follows from his glebe in Clonmel, in February last:—
"It is quite customary here, of late, to see several fellows with their guns behind a ditch on the roadside, and you cannot guess whether they intend to shoot you or not, until perhaps you feel the effects of their lead. These lads are, you know, legally armed under such circumstances. The police are of little use in the country, except

465
to escort prisoners. The indiscriminate sale of firearms which has been permitted for so many months has filled with alarm every individual (no matter what his politics) with whom I have conversed. Could the magistracy of Ireland (particularly that branch who are necessarily in more immediate communication with Government) be induced to make a combined awakening representation to our rulers of the evils which, sooner or later, humanly speaking, must result from the facilities afforded to the lowest and most abandoned of society to arm themselves, such a representation would not be disregarded by the Government. The magistracy cannot but be alive to the dangers of our present position; and I am convinced they are far too independent and high-minded (when duty demands that they speak out) to be deterred from remonstrance by any apprehension of giving utterance to truth, unpalatable in any quarter, however high; that, in short, they are not composed of that plastic material that can accommodate its vision to the optics of the Minister of the day.
In The Times newspaper of the 13th of April he found an extract from an Irish newspaper, describing the alarm felt in King's County from the extensive purchases of arms made by the peasantry. Almost all the Judges at the last assizes addressed the grand juries on this subject. Mr. Justice Jackson, for many years a Member of that House, charged the grand jury as follows on opening the commission at Clonmel:—
"There are a number of persons charged with offences connected with the possession and use of firearms. To the latter subject I feel it my incumbent duty to draw your attention, as I conceive there are a large portion of magistrates upon the grand jury; for, although it appears there was no lack of arms before, there has been latterly an extraordinary influx of arms into the country, the possession and use of which are connected with crimes of the most heinous character. The officer in command of this garrison very properly called upon me on my arrival in town, and directed my attention to placards which have been extensively published and circulated here; and one of them is of so curious a nature, being so shaped as if it had emanated from the Executive of the country, that I conceive it to be my duty to call your attention particularly to it. It bears the Queen's arms at its head, and has all the appearance of a Government proclamation; and at the end is the word 'Castle' in large letters, with 'street' in smaller characters, so as to make the latter word invisible to the reader at a distance. I believe the matter to be one of the deepest importance to the peace and order of society; and I think that you should call the attention of the Executive to this subject."
Mr. Baron Lefroy, who had also been a Member of that House, in his charge to the grand jury of Leitrim at the last assizes, said—
"I have to remark upon this calendar as I have had to remark upon other calendars in Ireland
466
since I have been connected with the administration of the law—what a remarkable contrast it presents to any calendar you could look at in England. All the serious offences upon the face of this calendar—as upon most of the calendars in Ireland—are connected with the use of firearms, either wielded by large bodies of men or by an individual in the perpetration of the very serious offences which are most calculated to disturb the peace of society—to interfere with the enjoyment of property; in short, every offence calculated to break the bonds of civilized society is committed through the instrumentality of firearms. There must be a great laxity and detect in the law upon this subject. There is no doubt an excuse which is very plausible, and a very inviting one, that is—the privilege to use and possess firearms; but, if we find from experience that this privilege is abused, so as to interfere with the general good of the community, it is right that the law should be very stringent in its provisions with reference to the possession of firearms, which would conduce materially to the furtherance of civilization in the country, to the security of life, and the perfect enjoyment of property."
Mr. Baron Richards said at Ennis, county of Clare—
"I am sorry to observe that there are a great many in custody charged with taking firearms. This, undoubtedly, is an offence of a very serious nature and bad character; but, whether crimes of this description have been committed by the inhabitants of this county, or by parties from other districts, I do not know. However, as far as in us lies, we must endeavour to put down by the strong arm of the law offences of this nature."
Mr. Serjeant Howley, in his charge to the grand jury at the last assizes for Limerick, said—
"Lawful authority appears to be pushed aside. Threatening notices and the arms of the assassin govern, control, and punish every exercise of property, right, or duty. Those whom the blow has not reached know and feel, from the written threats they receive, that in their daily avocations they literally walk in the shadow of death. No courage, no precaution, no life, however blameless, saves the victim from his doom; and when the bloody deed is accomplished, it would appear as if it was the work of an invisible hand, for no trace is found, no information gleaned, no eye has seen the perpetrator of the crime. Amongst the more recent cases of murder were two officers of my civil court, Donohoe and Dwyer, both men of most exemplary character and conduct. Donohoe, in the immediate vicinity of this town, on his return home in the evening, was accosted in terms of civility on the public highway by three armed men, and the next moment was shot to death. Dwyer, in the town of Templemore, was rising on his knees after night prayer, and received, through the window of his humble chamber, the wounds that terminated his life."
A petition had been placed in his hands by a right hon. Gentleman (Mr. G. D. Damer), who had been compelled to leave town, and who had requested him (Sir W. Verner) to present it in his name, signed by eight

467
magistrates, three clergymen of the Established Church, two Roman Catholic clergymen, and all the respectable persons in and about the town of Roscrea, representing that on the 25th of March last, the fair-day of that town, they had been eyewitnesses to a sale by auction of firearms, which was attended by crowds of the lowest orders-of the population, who bought up guns and pistols as fast as they could be pot op for safe—some as low in price as 2s. for a case of pistols, and guns at equally low prices, The petitioners represented that the well-disposed persons of all classes in the district joined in expressing a hope that the Government would lose no time in taking this matter into their most serious Consideration, and in adopting some measures to prevent the continuance of so great an abuse by legislative enactment. He had received, too, a letter from the Earl of Glengall, from which he might read the following passages:—
"Why do the farmers buy arms?—Because every ruffian has a gun; if they had not, the farmers would not want them. Every villain in this country has arms; it's truly dreadful! Auctions are held at most of our markets regularly; we have numberless proofs of fellows in the public works having bought them and attacked houses."
A letter appeared in the Limerick Chronicle, of the 28th ult., signed by William Wilson, whose son had been attacked by some ruffians and dangerously wounded, in which, after stating that the magistrates and police were zealously tracing the perpetrators of the outrage, the writer proceeded:—
"They seem to be fully aware of the impending ruin that awaits the rural districts, for want of any coercive guard, owing to the general armament of the whole population of the lowest order in Ireland, when every man may walk the country at large, at all hours, with his gun primed and loaded. Spain was never worse than Ireland is now; you con get a man shot for half-a-crown. I do not jest, I am speaking seriously; a short time will tell."
He thought one of the greatest misfortunes that could befall Ireland would be its deprivation, at the present time, of the services of that noble Lord (the Lord Lieutenant) by whom the administration of the affairs of that country had been conducted under the present Government. It was stated that, when that noble Lord went to Ireland, he expressed his intention to govern that country without an Arms Act; and in consequence of that declaration some dealers in arms had not scrupled to make the assertion that they sold firearms under the authority of the Government. He might
468
read to the House a placard issued by one of these persons, which was surmounted by a representation of the Royal arms, and bore the appearance of an official proclamation:—
"Whereas many evil-disposed persons avail themselves of the present scarcity of food as a pretext to commit acts of violence against property, and otherwise disturbing the peace of the country, his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant is pleased to grant all Her Majesty's peaceable and loyal subjects, without distinction, the power lo have and to keep any description of firearms, for the protection of the public peace, and likewise their own homes and property, without any restriction, except an invoice or certificate of the person from whom the arms are purchased. Thomas M'Crade is privileged by his Excellency, and fully empowered by the honourable Board of Excise, to offer for sale by auction, to the peaceable inhabitants of this town, 500 double and single-barrelled guns of various sorts, and 1,000 pair of pistols, warranted all double Tower proof, 500,000 best percussion caps, a large quantity of powder-flasks, shot, hags and belts, wash rods, turnscrews, nipple wrenches, &c.
"THOMAS M'GRADE, Licensed Auctioneer,
4, Castle-street, Dublin."
The sale of arms still continued in Ireland, and he had received information from the county of Down that no less than 500 stand of arms had recently been sold in one portion of that county. He thought these circumstances deserved the attention of the Government; and he begged to move for returns of all applications made to the Government by grand juries, magistrates and others in Ireland, with reference to the unlimited sale of arms and ammunition in Ireland.
MR. GROGANseconded the Motion.
MR. LABOUCHERE: Sir, I can assure the hon. and gallant Baronet who has just eat down, that it is very far from my desire to express any surprise, much less to make any complaint of an Irish representative having thought fit, under the present circumstances of that country, to call the attention of the House to its internal condition, both as respects the security of life and property there, and as respects the effect produced by the determination of the Government and the House at the end of last Session to have the law in Ireland the same as it is in England, with regard to the sale and possession of firearms, and to do away with those Acts, which had been so long on the Statute-book, forbidding the sale and possession of firearms, except under certain restrictions. I can assure the House that the condition of Ireland during the calamitous winter which has just passed over our heads, both in this

469
and either respects, has occupied the most; anxious and constant solicitude of Her Majesty's Government, and that we did feel that the step which we took in recommending to the House to part with powers which former Administrations had exercised, only increased our responsibility to maintain the existing law and protect life and property; and, Sir, although we felt that this responsibility was also increased by the circumstances which a deficiency in the means of subsistence occasioned in the country, yet still we are sensible that those misfortunes have not been aggravated by the bad conduct of the people, and that the peace of the country has not been disturbed. I can assure the hon. Member that the Government is quite aware of the responsibility which it has contracted. If the Government undertook to administer the affairs of Ireland without having recourse to any extraordinary powers, whether in the shape of Coercion Bills, or Arms Bills, they, I think, having taken that determination, should not lightly depart from that course; and I think I can show the House that we did not rashly make that recommendation, nor do we repent having made it. Undoubtedly it has been the case, as was naturally to be supposed, that outrages have multiplied very greatly during the past year in Ireland. If we compare the number of outrages that have been committed in 1847, with those which were committed in 1846, a large increase in the number will be shown; but I believe the House will come to a very inaccurate conclusion, if they look only to that circumstance, without also taking into account the nature and character of those outrages which have been committed. This fact will strike every Gentleman who has looked at the returns on the Table of the House—namely, that while there has been an immense increase in the number of outrages directed against property, the number of outrages directed against life and the peace of society has been but slightly increased, and in the number of agrarian outrages there has actually been a diminution. I ventured on a former occasion to call the attention of the House to these remarkable circumstances. I allow that it is impossible to direct the attention of the House to this matter, without calling upon them to look at the manner in which, upon the whole, the law has been administered in Ireland; and I have the satisfaction of being able to state that for along time the law had not been curried into effect so
470
firmly and efficaciously as it has been daring the past year, I think, therefore, that the Government did well when they refused to resort to extraordinary expedients, since we find that they have been able, with the assistance of the law as it stands—not to prevent crime altogether, for that is not to be expected—but to punish offenders, to vindicate the law, and to prevent that impunity for crime which has been the most fearful feature in the social condition of Ireland. I shall be able to show that the way in which the law has been administered by the ordinary tribunals of the country is enough to make a Government pause before they entertain the proposition made by the hon. and gallant Baronet who has just sat down, and before they have recourse to—the hon. Baronet himself did not say what measure—any measure of an extraordinary and unconstitutional character. I have always thought that until the existing law has been tried and has failed in its object of giving due protection to life and property, no Government has a right to come down to the House and ask for extraordinary powers for that purpose; and I think it rests upon them to show that the power with which a Government is invested has been fully exerted for the vindication of the law and for the protection of society. With respect to the sale of arms, I am not prepared to say that there has not been a large importation of arms into Ireland, and a considerable sale of them recently; but I must say that I believe that there is very great exaggeration in the reports which have found their way into the newspapers. The hon. Baronet has quoted many letters from persons resident in Ireland to show the extensive sale which has taken place; but I cannot help thinking that the account which he gives as a general picture of the state of Ireland in this respect is exaggerated—at least it is very different from that which I have received from the most authoritative sources. I will read an extract from a letter which I received in the month of January, from a gentleman whose authority, from his personal character and official position, I hold to be the very highest in Ireland on this subject—I mean that excellent and distinguished officer, Colonel M'Gregor, who commands the constabulary in that country. At my request he sent me some information on the subject, and he accompanied that information with a letter, which I will now read to the House, and which contains a

471
very complete and accurate picture of the state of Ireland, both with regard to the number of outrages which have been committed, and to the sale of firearms:—
"Upon the whole, then, it would appear that the country was never more free from political excitement, nor from secret combination, nor (although this fact may, perhaps, be attributed to an apathy and indisposition towards the cultivation of the land) from outrage of a purely agrarian character, but that the increase of crime seems to spring almost entirely out of the prevailing scarcity; and, although many of the ringleaders in the plundering of provisions or of house attacks, or of attacks of persons on the highway for money or provisions, are not themselves in want, yet they are readily followed in the commission of crime by those who are in a state of sad destitution."
I believe this to be a most accurate and faithful representation of the condition of Ireland; and I will ask the House whether it is by Coercion Bills or Arms Bills that outrages arising under the circumstances described by Colonel M'Gregor are to be put down? I will now read an extract from Colonel M'Gregor's statement with regard to the sale and possession of arms:—
"By a reference to the returns respecting the increased desire of the people to procure firearms, it will be seen that the rumours on this subject have been exaggerated; in confirmation of which observation I may state, that out of about 1,550 of the worst description of crimes reported during the last seven weeks, only 450 appear to have been perpetrated by armed parties; and although it is undeniable that arms have lately fallen into the hands of people who will make the worst use of them, yet it is to be hoped that, from the prices paid for arms, as well as from the reports of the officers of the constabulary, that a very large proportion of the arms recently purchased have been procured by respectable farmers and their confidential dependants against the apprehended attacks of men driven to despair by want."
The truth is that no one who ever considered this subject at all could doubt that when we put an end to those laws which prevented the sale of firearms in Ireland, considerable abuses would spring up. Forbidden fruit is sweet, and for an Irish peasant to be in possession of a gun is a matter of pride to him. The hon. Baronet has passed his life among a peasantry who have always been in the possession of firearms. The English policy formerly was to arm the Orangemen of the north, and to forbid the use of arms to the rest of Ireland. It is natural, therefore, now that these restrictions have been taken off, that the Catholic peasantry of Ireland should run riot a little with such a new power; and we must not banish from our minds this consideration before we attach too
472
much importance to the great desire which, I do not deny, has shown itself to possess arms in the southern and western parts of Ireland. At the same time I must say that in some counties of Ireland, as the county of Kerry, and in Connaught generally, there has not been the same desire shown to possess arms as in other parts of Ireland. I have stated that the Government are quite aware of the responsibility which they contracted in undertaking to govern Ireland without an Arms Bill, and they have determined to put in force the law, and to prevent, as far as was in their power, the abuse of fire-arms being placed in improper hands; and I can assure the House that the existing law is by no means inefficient for objects of this kind. There is an Act well known in Ireland under the name of the Whiteboy Act, which inflicts most severe penalties on persons who appear in arms to the terror of their neighbours, without reasonable cause; and that statute has been applied firmly and vigorously, in order to prevent mischiefs arising from the improper use of firearms; and I am happy to say, that in the case of those persons who have been tried for offences under the Whiteboy Act, there has been no indisposition evinced on the part of witnesses to come forward, or on the part of juries to convict. Allusion has been made to the county of Tipperary—a county which, I am sorry to say, is commonly quoted in this House when outrage and disorder are the subject of discussion. But I will read to the House a letter which is dated the 28th of March, and which is written by a resident magistrate of that county:—
"I have the honour to report," the magistrate said, "that I went to attend at the assizes of Nenagh, on the 16th instant, where I had several cases for trial, and returned to my station on the 26th. With reference to my report of the 20th of November, wherein I suggested those persons appearing under arms to prevent the sale of corn at an auction should be prosecuted under the Whiteboy Act, I beg to state that the leaders of this party were convicted, and sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour, which, I trust, will prevent a recurrence of these assemblies. I beg further to state, that I have passed several other convictions for crime committed in my district, and that twenty-one of the misguided persons have been sentenced to seven and fourteen years' transportation."
This is only one out of a great number of letters, which I could read to the House to show that it is not true that the possession of firearms has led to all the evils which have been referred to. In endeavouring to prevent abuses from the possession of

473
arms, the Government has been backed by the good sense and good feeling of the country; and the ordinary tribunals have enforced the law in the best manner in which it can be carried into effect—namely, by the assistance of the community for whose benefit the Act was passed. If it were necessary, I could go into many details to prove the accuracy of what I have stated, both as to the manner in which the law has been carried into effect, and the number of convictions at the recent assizes in Ireland; and I could also point out to the House from the reports which he upon its Table, that the character of the outrages committed last year, bears out the statement which I have made with regard to the comparative increase in offences against property, and offences against the lives of individuals. Notwithstanding the increase which has undoubtedly taken place, nothing has occurred to induce the Government to depart from their determination to maintain the peace of the country without coming down to the House to ask for extraordinary and unconstitutional powers. The hon. Baronet who brought forward this question, has referred, in terms for which I sincerely thank him, to the noble person whose name I cannot pronounce without emotion, and whose fate it has been in times of unexampled difficulty and danger to administer the government of Ireland. I can truly say that the courage and sagacity of that noble person have had the most happy effect in animating the exertions of all those who came in contact with him, and who were anxious to co-operate with him in his endeavours to maintain the peace and to preserve the lives of the people of Ireland. I know how constant and unwearied his exertions have been; and I think that, considering the difficulties which have beset the Government, that these exertions have been attended with as much success as could be expected. The noble Lord has been supported most vigorously and most efficiently, in the first place, by that admirable force, the police force of Ireland, and by the officer in command of it, to whom I have already referred. And next, the noble Lord was supported by the army of Ireland, which had the most embarrassing and painful duties to perform, which they discharged with a degree of humanity and discipline that was most important to the preservation of the peace of the country. I must say, also, that the noble Lord received most valuable assistance from the
474
clergy of all denominations, both in relieving the existing distress and in preserving the peace of the country. The most trying times have now passed over; but every Gentleman who was in the country at the time must feel that when the riots began at Dungarvon, Youghal, and Waterford—and there was no knowing how far they would spread, if the clergy, both Protestant and Roman Catholic, had not preached submission to the law—all the efforts of the Government to maintain tranquillity might have been in vain. I do not know whether it be necessary to go farther into this subject. I can only assure the House that, as the attention of the Government has been anxiously directed for a long time past to this matter, it will also be anxiously directed to it for the future. All that I feel it necessary to say at present is, that I do not think that any case has been made out to justify the Government in coming to Parliament, and calling for extraordinary powers to prevent the sale of firearms. I believe there is great evil in departing from the ordinary course of the constitution when it is possible to avoid it. I do not blame former Governments for having done so, nor do I say that it may not be necessary for a Government to take that painful course. With these sentiments I must decline the introduction of some new Arms Bill. It is very easy for the hon. Baronet to say, "some Arms Bill." But is our experience of former Arms Bills so good as to justify us in saying they afford a safeguard against abuse, or prevent arms from getting into the hands of evil-disposed persons? We have heard of Arms Bill after Arms Bill. But did any one of these measures prevent rogues or ruffians obtaining possession of arms? All were lamentable failures in that respect. The hon. Baronet himself referred to the speech of the noble Lord who was Secretary for Ireland when the last Arms Bill was introduced, in which it was admitted that the then state of the law was a complete failure. I am sure the experience of the hon. Baronet, as a magistrate, must have convinced him that former Bills utterly failed in producing the results which were anticipated from them. I, for one, feel bound to hesitate before I recommend to the House a departure from the ordinary course of the constitution as a remedy for the evils of Ireland. The Government will continue, as they have done, vigorously and determinedly to exert the powers of the law to preserve the lives and properties of Her

475
Majesty's subjects in Ireland, being fully aware of the sacred obligation which they have incurred in that respect. I do not believe it would conduce to that end—that it would strengthen the hands of the Government—to introduce a measure of this description; and it is on that ground that I have felt compelled to express a contrary opinion to that urged by the hon. Baronet. With regard to the Motion of the hon. Baronet, I can have no objection to it, and I cheerfully agree to it.
MR. SHAWsaid, that as the right hon. Gentleman did not oppose the Motion of his hon. Friend (Sir W. Verner), it was not necessary for him to trespass at any length upon the House; but he could not let the opportunity pass without expressing his opinion that the law as regarded firearms in Ireland was in a very unsatisfactory condition, and inspired the well-disposed and peaceable inhabitants of that country with a feeling of general uneasiness and alarm. He must remind the right hon. Gentleman, that it was not a voluntary act on the part of the Government last Session dispensing with the aid of all extraordinary powers on the subject; for the Government had proposed to renew the Arms Act, but were driven from that course by the pressure of their general supporters. He, at the time, while he expressed the want of confidence he had before expressed in the additions that had been made to the Arms Act by the late Government, in, he believed, the Session of 1843, in respect of a vexatious mode of registration and branding, had still warned the present Government, that they would incur great responsibility if they consented to abandon all the provisions that for the last fifty years had invested the Executive Government of Ireland with a peculiar control over the manufacture and sale of arms and ammunition in that part of the United Kingdom. He thought the result had justified his predictions, and that the Government would find it necessary in some shape to renew that code of laws. He did not consider that the Whiteboy Acts were sufficient for the purpose, as they could not be applied generally, but only to particular parts of the country, under peculiar circumstances affecting the public peace; and he strongly recommended the whole question to the serious consideration of the Government. It was no party question, but one which essentially concerned the general interests of society. He could not sit down without assuring the right hon. Gen-
476
tleman, and the House, of his entire concurrence in what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman with reference to the distinguished nobleman then at the head of the Irish Government. He felt sincere and unaffected sorrow for his illness, and would declare in that House what he had frequently stated elsewhere—that without distinction of politics or party, that nobleman's present state of health had excited in every part of Ireland universal sympathy and regret.
Motion agreed to.

THE CULTIVATION OF COTTON IN INDIA.
MR. BRIGHT MR. BRIGHT, in moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the progress of the Cultivation of Cotton in India, said: I have presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester, as well as petitions from several other bodies, praying the House to grant an inquiry for which I am about to move; and I can say, with a perfect knowledge of the fact, that there is a strong wish that the inquiry should be granted, and that at this time some means should be taken to increase the supply of the raw material of the cotton manufacture. I should have felt confident at any time that permission to have this inquiry would be granted; but under the present circumstances of the manufacturing districts, I feel it to be more important than at any former period, and more strongly incumbent on the House to grant it. I do believe that what potatoes are to Ireland, cotton is to Lancashire; and that as you have in Ireland a calamity unparalleled in consequence of the failure of the staple food of the people, so if we could conceive the raw material of the cotton manufacture greatly to fail, we should see calamities overspread this country to equal if not exceed that which has overtaken the population of Ireland. And perhaps it may be necessary to refer to the progress and present condition of the cotton trade, in order to show that it is not a subject of ordinary importance I am submitting to the House. It is perhaps impossible to find in all the annals of human industry a parallel for the rise and extraordinary progress of the cotton manufacture. There are persons now living who were living when the whole annual value of our cotton manufacture was 200,000 l. That was the state of things at the accession of George III. But even so late as 1786 all our imports of cotton did not

477
reach 20,000,000 lbs. From that time to this, especially in latter years, the progress has been very rapid. In 1846, the Consumption reached 1,585,900 bales, or upwards of 614,000,000 lbs. It appears by a return that 316,000 persons are employed within cotton mills. I happen to know that estimate is below the truth. I have no doubt that 320,000 is below the actual number employed. It is a common estimate in the trade to allow 100 l. of capital for each person employed, and that will give a capital directly invested in the trade of 31,600,000 l. To give another proof of the importance of this trade, I may mention the fact that in 1844 the value of our exports in cotton yarn and goods was 25,805,000 l., being somewhat more than half of the whole of the exports of this country. Mr. M'Culloch, in 1832, estimated that 1,400,000 persons subsisted by the cotton trade. It must be evident that the supply of the raw material of such a trade must be of the greatest importance. The question is not confined to the inhabitants of Lancashire and Cheshire. The full and free supply of the raw material must be looked on as a national benefit, the effects of which are continually extended. This year we have witnessed some of the results of a short supply of cotton. I can give one or two facts as to the failure of the cotton crop. The stock of cotton in our ports at the end of 1844 was 902,400 bales, or 33 weeks' consumption; 1845, 1,060,000 bales, or 35 weeks' consumption; 1846, 545,000 bales, or 18 weeks' consumption. Thus we reduced 35 weeks' consumption down to 18 weeks' consumption. The result has been a rise of from 4d. to 7d. a lb., more than 75 per cent; and the effect of such a change can he easily accertained by observing the stoppage of some of our mills altogether, while the greater part work but two, three, or four days a week. This state of things has been brought about by the state of the crop in the United States, which shows the following results: In 1844, 2,400,000 bales; in 1845, 2,100,000 bales; and for 1846, 2,000,000 bales for the estimated crop. The result of a short supply is, that the price has risen enormously, and thus has been brought about a condition of distress and difficulty never known before since the first bale of cotton was imported into this country. The question naturally arises, whence did we draw our supply in past years, and what probability is there of an adequate supply for the future?
478
There was a time when the cotton consumed in this country came neither from the United States nor the East Indies. When in 1786 we consumed about 20,000,000 lbs., we drew our supplies from the following places: British West Indies, 5,800,000 lbs.; French and Spanish colonies, 5,500,000 lbs.; Dutch colonies. 1,600,000 lbs.; Portuguese colonies, 2,000,000 lbs.; Smyrna and Turkey, 5,000,000 lbs.; Total imports, 19,900,000 lbs. In 1789, cotton was first imported from India. In 1787, the United States first grew cotton. In 1792, the United States exported only 138,328 lbs.; but in 1793, the saw gin was invented, and the growth of cotton being consequently greatly increased, the United States in 1795 exported 5,276,306 lbs.; and this has greatly increased in subsequent years. But, coming down to a later period, it will be manifest how little progress India made as compared to the United States, by comparing the two periods of five years, ending in 1820 and in 1486:—

Countries

Ending 1820. Bales.

Ending 1846. Bales.

America

216,176

1,229,535

East Indies

122,142

184,979

Brazil

141,193

98,611

West Indies

41,529

14,866

Egyptian, none till 1823, when it was

5,623

51,762

Thus, American increase has been nearly 600 per cent; East Indian increase only 50 per cent, in the last twenty-six years. While such an enormous progress has been made by America, British India has made no progress at all, and is as stationary as possible with respect to its exports. In point of fact, in 1818 East India import was 247,659 bales; 1844, ditto, 237,596 bales, the highest of the last four years. In 1846, weekly consumption, 30,498 bales, of which American, 24,623 bales; East Indian, only 2,189. Not only has Indian cotton not increased in quantity, but it has not improved in quality. I have here short extracts from the letters of Liverpool brokers, which throw some light on this point. One says—
"The great bulk of the cotton from India, probably seven-eighths of it, is much the same as during the last twenty years; during the whole of which period, small parcels have occasionally been sent forward of improved quality, but the bulk remains much the same, and is still forwarded with a great deal of leaf, dirt, and seed, none of which is worth the freight. In some few cases the cotton

479
is cleaned without injury to the staple; but in many instances, when cleaned, the injury to the staple counterbalances all the advantages of increased cleanliness.
"Average freight from New Orleans, ⅝d. per lb.; ditto from Bombay, ½d. to ⅝d. per 1b.: being 50 per cent heavier, in proportion to the value, on East India cottons."
Another says—
"The cotton from Bombay is generally very dirty, and much discoloured, arising partly from a long land carriage, exposure to weather, and other difficulties of transit. The natives also mix with it dirt and seed, as they appear to have an interest in making the weight greater.
"East India cotton varies much in quality according to the season, but it is not a bit improved."
I think I have said enough to show, that the existing state of circumstances is by no means satisfactory; that the inquiry I ask for is necessary; and that I am justified in pressing it upon the attention of Parliament. I want to have it ascertained, first, can India grow a sufficient quantity of cotton to supply our manufactories? and if she can, what are the obstacles which prevent her doing so? That India has grown cotton for centuries, is absolutely notorious. Many persons believed that at one time the whole world was supplied from it, although I do not think that position sufficiently proved. But this is quite certain, that, surrounded by the Indus, the Himalaya Mountains, and the Indian Ocean, there is a population of 150,000,000—that this immense population has been clothed for centuries in cotton—and that that article has been applied in every shape in which cloth is used; and we have therefore every reason to believe that at this moment there is a larger amount of cotton annually produced in India than in any other country in the world. Major General Briggs, some years ago, wrote an excellent pamphlet, in which he pointed out the great advantages of the growth of cotton to the cultivator in India, and to the manufacturer at home. He stated there were 200,000 square miles suitable to the growth of cotton, in which there was every variety of soil and climate, and every advantage which could be found in any other country. Yet no supply of cotton for this country had been forthcoming. In 1818, India exported to England and China 140,000,000 lbs. If the progress in the growth of the article had borne any proportion to that of the United States, we might now look for as full a supply of the raw material from India as we were in the habit of receiving from the United
480
States. Now, I do not offer the House my opinions as positively conclusive on this question; bat I find them borne out by the reports of the East India Company. In 1836, the East India Company published reports of the proceedings which they had taken, and amongst them an immense amount of correspondence, all of which I have read. In 1822, the directors write to the Governor of Bombay—
"There is also considerable evidence afforded that no want will be experienced of a suitable soil and climate for raising this commodity to a large extent. The excellence of the quality seems to be established."
In 1829, they say—
"We are strongly impressed with the opinion, that nothing but attention and perseverance is required to make Indian cotton wool a productive article of export to Europe, and there is no commercial object connected with our Indian possessions of greater national importance."
Again—
"We have formerly received consignments of Surat cotton, which, in respect both of staple and cleanness, were greatly esteemed in the London market; and we now wish to procure a further supply of equal or superior goodness, which we are led to think might be obtained, if the processes of gathering and cleaning were conducted with sufficient care."
After alluding to New Orleans and Georgia cotton, they say—
"And we are further informed, which is exceedingly material in the present consideration, that the Bombay cottons, particularly those of the growth of the districts near Surat and Broach, are little or nothing inferior to the upland American descriptions above named, the item of cleanness alone excepted, and that such cotton might readily be brought into competition with the upland American."
In 1832 they write—
"It is, nevertheless, quite manifest that Indian cotton may be produced of fit quality and condition for the general purposes of the British manufactures."
And Mr. Martin, superintendent of the farm in Guzerat, expresses
—"a strong conviction that the quality of the staple might be essentially improved; and, perhaps, even enabled to compete with the New Orleans cotton in the English market."
In 1839, they say—
"From the best information we have obtained from your records, and from other sources, there appears no reason to doubt, although this great desideratum has not yet been attained, that under proper management and superintendence, India is capable of producing cotton in quantity to compete with the cotton from North America, which the best Bombay cotton (Surat), cleaned by the 'churka,' often rivals."
I find also it is stated in the annual re-

481
port of the Agricultural and Horticultural Society of England, in 1839—
"The more the society gives its consideration to the improvement of this important culture (cotton), the more it becomes convinced that capital and skill are alone required to raise the indigenous cotton of the country—the parent stock whence all other lands have been supplied—to a standard worthy of a comparison with the productions of the west."
Now I believe the East India Company hold these opinions quite honestly; for, during thirty years they have been making attempts to promote the cultivation of cotton. They met with many failures; but my belief is, that these arose from their having pursued the cultivation of cotton as amateurs, and not with the spirit and perseverance which private enterprise prompts. This was clearly proved by the fact of the inquiries sent to England as to how the saw-gin should be affixed. There were many accidents, and the machinery was burned by the carelessness of servants; but, making all these admissions, this fact remains, and cannot be refuted, that you have in India land calculated for the production of cotton; that you have a population the most docile, intelligent, and industrious, and labour far cheaper than you can by possibility have it in the United States. In point of fact, there is everything necessary except the possession of that capital by which improvements in cultivation can be carried on. The correspondence shows that some more general, more universal stimulus must be applied before the annual produce can be greatly increased. Now I have no wish—and I say so with the greatest sincerity—to bring any charges against the East India Company. I know the difficulties they have had to contend with in the management of the affairs of India. Their efforts have been honest, continuous, and meritorious, to a considerable extent with regard to this subject; they have spent 100,000 l. in experiments to promote the cultivation of cotton; but yet they have failed—and I want a Committee to ascertain how it is they have failed. I propose to call before it officers now employed in this country by the Company, and others who have lived in India for many years; and I hope to find out what obstacles the Indian Government have found in the cultivation of cotton, and, if there be such, if they are capable of being overcome, as well as to see if any available steps have been left unemployed in developing the resources of that country, and affording us a sufficient supply of
482
raw material. I hope the question will not become so imminent as to overwhelm us. If by any calamity our supplies were cut off. or greatly failed, it is impossible to paint too strongly the distress and difficulty which must overtake the most densely peopled portions of the kingdom. We have a large portion of our population dependent upon the supply of the raw material. A season may fail. It failed last year—it failed to some extent this year. But a frost coming too early, or a wind blowing from a particular point, too much wet or drought, or an undefinable worm, may produce the most disastrous effects. I will not speak of the danger of war; for the more we are bound together by commercial ties, the less danger is there of our committing the folly of going to war. But we ought not to forget that the whole of the cotton grown in America is produced by slave labour; and this, I think, all will admit, that no matter as to the period in which slavery may have existed, abolished it will ultimately be, either by peaceable or by violent means. Whether it comes to an end by peaceable means, or otherwise, there will, in all probability, be an interruption to the production of cotton; and the calamity which must in consequence fall on a part of the American Union, will be felt throughout the manufacturing districts of this country. I ask the House to grant this Committee for the sake of the trade dependent on the cultivation of cotton—for the sake of all the interests which are bound up with a free supply of the raw material of this article. The duty we owe to the manufacturing population, and a regard to our own safety, as well as our responsibility to that vast population of India which Providence has committed to our care, demand that we should use every means in our power to develop the resources of India, and to give prosperity and abundance to its vast population. I shall not enter further on a subject capable of much more development, but only say, that I am satisfied no hon. Member will oppose—as I am sure the Government will not—the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the cultivation of cotton in British India.
SIR J. HOBHOUSEcould assure the hon. Gentleman that it certainly was not the intention of the Government to oppose the appointment of this Committee; nor did he think that anything had been said by the hon. Member, bringing a sufficient charge against the East India Company,

483
either of ignorance, or neglect of duty, to make it necessary to enter into detail. At the same time, it was but fair to that body of men who had with such unparalleled success for so many years governed that great country, to state shortly what had been done by them to promote the cultivation of cotton. As the Committee was to be granted, it would not be necessary for him to go into the various topics urged by the hon. Gentleman; otherwise it might be shown that he rather over-estimated the effect it was possible for any inquiry to have, if he supposed it would make the people of India—in our time, at least—producers of cotton to the extent of the people of America. Such competition appeared quite out of the question. There was such a difference between the natives of America and of India, that even under circumstances of much greater facility of production in India than at present, he could not flatter himself that, give what encouragement we might, there would be such a cultivation of cotton in India as to make this country (to adopt the hon. Gentleman's phrase) safe from the want of cotton, supposing the import from America should fail. One of the reasons why the cultivation of cotton bad somewhat fallen off in India was, that we were there importers of cotton goods ourselves, and had destroyed, to a great degree, the great cotton manufactures of India. What had become of the Dacca fabrics, the beautiful piece goods, the gossamers, as they were called? Why, we were at this moment clothing the natives of India with our own manufactures, instead of allowing them to weave their own goods, and wear their own cottons. The hon. Member had fairly allowed that the Indian Governments had not slept at their post; ever since 1780, continual efforts had been made to get valuable information with respect to the cultivation of this valuable plant in India. There were folios upon folios, containing reports of the way in which the plant had been cultivated, and of the efforts made to attain additional success in that cultivation. But it was not till 1828 that the first effort was made to cultivate foreign cotton, and that was made at the instance of Lord Ellenborough; who, aided by the Court of Directors, attempted to introduce the cultivation of foreign cotton into certain parts of the Bombay presidency; and two or three experimental farms were there established, with some success, to cultivate the American cotton. It was not until 1839, when
484
Lord Auckland drew up a Minute which contained the whole history of the cultivation of the plant in India—perhaps one of the most valuable documents it was possible for any statesman to produce—that the attention of the Government was drawn to the best mode of cultivation. If the hon. Gentleman had waited for the production of the papers for which an hon. Baronet had moved, he would have seen that they embraced, not only Lord Auckland's Minute, but a series of most useful reports, which might almost have induced the hon. Gentleman to consider the appointment of the Committee superfluous. The Court of Directors took Lord Auckland's report into consideration; and it was determined that a gentleman connected with the East India Company—Captain Baylis, who was since dead—should be employed specially with a view to the introduction of cotton; and that not only American seed should be sent to India, but American planters, who might instruct the people in the most approved methods of cultivation. Captain Baylis, in 1840, proceeded to India with ten American planters, three of whom were stationed at Bombay and three at Madras; Captain Baylis accompanied the others to Bengal. The hon. Gentleman was somewhat mistaken as to the degree of success which attended the experiment. In the three presidencies it was certainly not uniform. The experiment failed in the north-western provinces, chiefly owing to two or three dry seasons, which rendered the soil unproductive, and discouraged the ryots; but in Marwa and other parts of India, the cultivation had succeeded; so that, whereas in 1842 there were only about 600 acres of American cotton grown, there were 15,000 acres in 1846. Last year, no less than 30,000 acres were under cultivation, and there were 200,000 acres now preparing for cotton, upon land, which, in some districts, would be let for a rent of 1s. an acre. Though the success of the experiment was admittedly not uniform—though in some parts of India the cultivation had not proceeded so rapidly as might have been anticipated, it was not correct to say that the experiment had not been attended with success. The specimens which he had seen of cotton produced in India, appeared to him—an uninstructed person, it was true—of superior quality; certainly some of them were very beautiful. Some cotton—the produce of the East Indies—had stood against New Orleans cotton last year, at

485
from 5¾d. to 6½d. per lb. In cleaning and packing, indeed, the natives of India had not succeeded. But the hon. Gentleman knew what a change was made in the production of cotton by the introduction of Whitney's saw-gin, which had done as much for America as the steam-engine of Watt had for this country. It created that cultivation of cotton which had produced such vast results, and made a population which before knew little or nothing on the subject, the greatest cultivators of cotton in the world. As to the diminished imports of Indian cotton, it must be mentioned that the American cotton commanded the market to such an extent, that it was not worth while for the speculators in Indian cotton to bring it home under the circumstances which attended the state of the cotton market during the period to which the hon. Gentleman had alluded. It was true that there was a diminution last year, from various causes, of 23 per cent in the imports of Indian cotton to this country, and a diminution of 12½ per cent in the imports of Indian cotton to China; but he would remark, that although there was a slight duty of nine annas to the maund in China on that cotton, yet that importation had not fallen off more than one-half what the importation to this country had been diminished. Amongst the causes which might be assigned for the decrease in the importation, he would mention the extensive speculations in opium which had taken place recently, and which must necessarily have lessened the sum of money to be applied by the speculators to the export of cotton. The exports of opium from Bombay to China last year, were 1,094,178lbs. more than the year before; and it was quite clear that with such a quantity of opium exported, there could not be the same amount of money in the hands of the speculators in cotton in India. Then, the speculations in railways tended to decrease the capital applied to the importation of cotton; and, lastly, the number of freights taken up by the vessels which engaged in the import of breadstuff's had diminished the means of sending homo cotton from India. These were four causes which very materially tended to lessen the import of cotton this year. The hon. Gentleman, while he rather overrated the power of the Indian Government in this matter, had shadowed out what he supposed to be one means of promoting the cultivation of cotton in the East. He seemed to think that the mode in which the land was rented
486
was such as did not tend to encourage that cultivation. But the hon. Gentleman was mistaken. The land assessment bad nothing to do with the cultivation of cotton or of anything else. Mr. Mill, the historian, had most completely shown that the land assessment was only of the nature of rent. It was proposed in 1839, that the Government should give a bonus to promote cotton cultivation. But the Indian Government of the day as well as the home authorities scouted the idea; they resolved to give such cultivation fair play, and no more. The hon. Gentleman had stated truly that the Indian Government had made great sacrifices to promote the production of cotton; they had spent within a short period 100,000 l. on the experiments. They continued their exertions; and scarcely a mail went out without some communication in reference to what would be a great means of encouraging the cultivation of cotton in India, namely, the formation of railroads and canals. For of what use were districts for the production of cotton if it could not without great difficulty be sent down to the coast? This he thought the best mode of fostering the cultivation of cotton; he could not agree in the opinion that prizes ought to be given. [Mr. BRIGHT: I said that prizes had been. I rather deprecated the idea.] The Indian Government were now making roads and canals in districts where the cotton cultivation promised to be most successful. The hon. Gentleman, the late chairman of the Board of Directors (Sir J. W. Hogg), had intended to speak on the present occasion; but the hon. Gentleman, he was sorry to say, was prevented by a domestic calamity. He had no objection to the Committee, though he did not augur any great results; but every facility would be afforded for conducting the inquiry, and, perhaps, he could not conclude more appropriately than by reading the substance of a conversation which had taken place between Mr. Aspinall Turner, the chairman of the Manchester Commercial Association and Sir J. W. Hogg. After some discussion the conference closed as follows:—
"Sir James Hogg then said, ' As this matter will come before Parliament, have I your permission to state that you, and the Manchester gentlemen whom you represent, are satisfied with what the Company have done?' To which they replied, ' You may state, in as strong terms as you like, that we are not only satisfied, but very grateful to the Company for their recent measures. We have no wish to interfere, and we leave the further prosecution of the cotton experiments, in full confidence that you will do all that can be done.'"

487
The extract now read corroborated the statement he had already made, that the East India Company would not shrink from their duty; neither would they shrink from inquiry into a system of cultivation calculated, in their opinion, to promote the welfare of that empire which he contended they governed with credit to themselves and for the benefit of the country.
LORD G. BENTINCK: I am rather more sanguine than my right hon. Friend as to the good which may be derived from a full and entire investigation of this matter. My right hon. Friend despairs of our East Indian possessions ever being able to compete with the growth of cotton in America. But, Sir, a high authority, sitting in the old House of Commons in the place which corresponded with that now occupied by the hon. Member for Durham—I mean Mr. Huskisson—stated, that if they would take the course of affording due protection to the growth of cotton in our Indian possessions, that would happen with regard to cotton which had in earlier times happened in regard to indigo—that with due protection our Indian possessions would produce sufficient cotton to supply the demands not only of Great Britain, but of all the world besides; just as in former times all our indigo had been received from Guatemala; but, in consequence of protection being extended to it, the growth of the East Indies had supplanted that of Guatemala. And Mr. Huskisson said to this House, in addition—
"And recollect that every bale of cotton imported from our East Indian possessions is necessarily imported into this country in British bottoms."
With such authority as that of Mr. Huskisson, then, I think that we need not despair, if sufficient encouragement be given, of seeing our East Indian possessions supply a large portion of cotton for the use of our manufactures in this country; but when the hon. Member for Durham told you that it was only in 1786 that the first pod of cotton was gathered in the United States of America he forgot to tell you also that the growth of cotton in America was fostered by protection—a duty of, I think, 1½d. a pound on all foreign cotton imported into the United States of America existed up to the very last year. Now, what are we doing? Whilst the land in India is subject to a tax—I care not what you call it, land-tax or Government rent—and is paying for the support of the Government either an assessment or a rent amounting
488
in some places to 1¾d. per pound, and generally to more than 1d. per pound, on the average growth of cotton, you take off five-sixteenths of a penny per pound from the duty on American cotton, which up to 1845 it had paid. It cannot be denied the growth of cotton in our Indian possessions is put on a most unfair basis; and I hope that this point, altogether overlooked by the two free-traders who have preceded me in the discussion, will not be entirely forgotten in the Committee; and I still hope to see a fair protection given to the growth of cotton in our Indian possessions. India is, I think, entitled to that protection, and for this reason—the quantity of cotton imported from America in 1846, at the rate of 6d. per pound, will give an amount of no less than 15,000,000 l. sterling, which we pay to the United States of America, now untaxed. At the same time we exported cotton manufactures to an amount little exceeding 1,000,000 l. sterling—I think 1,056,000 l.; but how stands the matter with respect to India? To our East Indian possessions and to Ceylon, in 1846, we exported cotton manufactures to an amount in value of above 4,500,000 l. sterling; and I say, therefore, that our East Indian subjects, taking out cotton goods in return for their raw cotton, have some claim upon us to encourage the growth of raw cotton in that country. It is quite true, as the right hon. Gentleman has stated, that one reason why the cultivation of cotton has so much fallen off in our East Indian possessions, is, that we have supplanted the manufacture of cotton goods by the Hindoos; but if so, is not that in itself a strong claim, and one to be listened to—calling upon us, in return, to encourage the growth by them of the raw cotton. But there is another point which I hope the Committee will also be instructed to inquire into, and that is, the encouragement which the promotion of railways in the East Indies would give to the growth of cotton. My right hon. Friend touched upon this point; but he stated, I think, that he had in contemplation the antediluvian improvement of canals. The day, I should think, is gone by when anybody would dream of encouraging the construction of canals. [Sir J. HOBHOUSE: They are also useful for irrigation.] But my right hon. Friend hardly, if at all, alluded to the utility of railways; and I find it stated in the Economist, and other authorities, that the cost and mode of conveyance have much to say with regard to the

489
cultivation of this plant. The mode in which the cotton is at present conveyed in the places where the greatest improvements have been introduced, is in carts, drawn by two bullocks together, at a rate of about twelve miles a day, each cart containing six bales of cotton of 120lbs. each; but the more ordinary course is for them to be carried in packs on the backs of the bullocks, each bullock carrying 240lbs. eight miles a day. These bullocks go together in large herds, each one splashing the other with mud. At night they he down in the roads, sometimes with the packs on their backs; or if not, then the packs are put on the dirty ground, and thus the cotton is so injured, so filled with mud and dirt, as to be almost useless. All that may be remedied by the Indian Government, supported by the Government at home, encouraging the construction of railways; and I hope that that part of the subject will not be overlooked in this Committee. Lord Hardinge, in a letter recently addressed to the East India Company, or to the Government at home, expressed his opinion that the construction of one particular railway in India would he equal to the saving of four regiments of infantry, the expense of which he set at the lowest at 50,000 l. a year, or the interest of 1,000,000 l., which would be enough to construct the railway in question; but Lord Hardinge added also that it must sufficiently appear to all, that in India the existence or non-existence of railways would frequently determine the question of peace or war. I therefore hope that in considering this question of the culture of cotton the value of improved modes of communication will be one of the first matters brought under the notice of the Committee. There is also one other question which I may venture now to mention, with a hope of being listened to, although last year if I had attempted to do so I should have been almost coughed down by the free-traders in this House. The matter is this—if we can be supplied by India with raw cotton for our manufactures, we shall be able to pay for it in our own manufactured goods, and although it was felt last year to be a matter of no consequence whatever whether we traded with a country which was disposed to take our manufactures, or with countries having high tariffs—although it was treated then as if it did not matter at all whether we were to pay in gold or in goods, and we were told that if we had to pay in gold
490
in the long run it must come back, I venture to think that that is not the opinion at present entertained on 'Change in London, or Manchester, or Liverpool. It was, I recollect, about this time last year that, in answer to me, the then First Minister of the Crown, addressing me, uttered this memorable declaration—it was on the 4th of May, and this is The Times report:—
"The noble Lord said, that if we got the corn of France and the timber of Prussia, the great consideration was, what we should get them to take in return. Why, suppose they took nothing in return, what should we suffer from that? [Cheers and counter-cheers from the Protectionists.] On what principles does the noble Lord think foreign commerce is carried on? When we buy the brandies of France, they are not given to us—something is given in exchange for them. We cannot take the silks of France, the timber of Prussia, and the corn of Prussia, without paying for them—there is no mode of making purchases but by giving an equivalent for them. Well, but you say we shall send out gold for them: but, do you send out gold to those countries now? I have not seen any diminution in the gold of the Bank of England that could be attributed to this cause. If there has been a decrease in gold, it has been from our internal concerns. I have not seen that any great quantities of it have gone to Prussia. What will astonish you still more perhaps is, that I wish it had. [Cheers.] This country would be able to command a sufficient quantity of gold if it were required in the steady and legitimate course of trade. When a regular commerce is carried on, there can be no drain of gold; and even if they take nothing but gold, we can only procure that by transmitting our manufactures for that gold, and then purchasing corn and timber with it. I should not he alarmed, therefore, if there should be an export of gold from this country, knowing that we shall obtain that gold by exchanging our manufactures for it. No such export can take place as will derange our internal affairs, or derange the stability of our commerce."
Now, Sir, the free-traders have got their will—the silks and the brandies of France, the timber and the corn of Russia, and more especially of America, have to be paid for; and the wish of the right hon. Gentleman is realized with a vengeance—for the United States of America have determined to take gold, and nothing but gold, in return for their corn; but I venture to say that the most rabid free-trader either on the Exchange of the city of London or on the Corn Exchange of Manchester or Liverpool would not now propound the doctrine that he wished it might he that foreign countries should take our gold in exchange for their corn. This, also, is a matter which ought, I think, to be considered by the Committee, with a view to ascertain whether, by restoring the duty on American cotton imported into this country, and

491
by reducing the land-tax, or Government rent, imposed on the cotton lands in India, we might not obtain our cotton from a country satisfied to take payment in the cotton and other manufactures of this country, amounting in the year 1846 to the declared value of 4,500,000 l. instead of giving a virtual monopoly of the supply of cotton to Great Britain to a country, insisting upon being paid, as the United States insists upon being paid, in gold only, and I believe in sovereigns of the last coinage, that there may be no loss in the weight, and maintaining in all things a high tariff against the produce and manufactures of the British nation.
On the noble Lord resuming his seat, the House was counted; and forty Members not being present, immediately adjourned, at a quarter past Eight o'clock.