Commons Sitting of 5 March 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Army Service; Life Insurances.
2° Drainage of Land; Loan.
Reported.—3° Consolidated Fund (8,000,000 l.)
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir R. H. Inglis, from Grately (Hants) and Quarley (Southampton), against the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By the Earl of Arundel and Surrey, from Chilvers Coton and Nuneaton (Warwick), in Favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Mr. Escott and Sir De L. Evans, from Westminster, and Sir B. Hall, from Marylebone, for Inquiry respecting the Rajah of Sattara.—By Mr. Sotheron, from Bradford, for Repeal of the Stamp Duty on Attorneys' Certificates.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Oxford and Okehampton, against the Use of Grain in Breweries and Distilleries.—By Mr. Forster, from Garliestown and Great Grimsby, and Mr. Hume, from Arbroath, for the Reduction of Lighthouse Dues.—By Mr. Godson, from Kidderminster, respecting Remuneration to Tax Assessors and Collectors.—By Mr. Labouchere, from Members of the Athy Relief Committee, respecting Ventilation of Cottages (Ireland).—By Mr. Walker, from Bury, in Favour of the Ten Hours Factories Bill.—By Mr. J. Tollemache, from Middlewich, for a Day of Humiliation on account of the Famine in Ireland.—By Mr. T. Duncombe, from the Isle of Wight, for Inquiry into the Management of the Roads in that Island.—By Mr. Mitcalfe, from North Shields, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Mr. P. Scrope, from several places in Ireland, for Alteration in the Poor Law (Ireland).—By Mr. Walker, from Chorley, for an Efficient Poor Law (Ireland).—By Mr. Bowles, from the Inhabitants of the Hamlet of St. Thomas the Apostle (Cornwall), and Lord Rendlesham, from Cratfield, for Repeal or Alteration in the Poor Removal Act.—By Mr. Mangles, from Guildford, for the Suppression of Promiscuous Intercourse.—By Mr. Hume, from the Society of Freethinking Christians (London), for the Abolition of Punishment of Death.—By Mr. Aldam and other Hon. Members, from several Railway Companies, against the Railways Bill.—By Colonel Mure, from the Trustees of the Renfrewshire Turnpike Road, for Alteration of the Railways Bill. — By Mr. P. Carew and other Hon. Members, from several places, for Alteration of the Law Settlement.—By Mr. Hindley, from the Peace Society, for referring National Disputes to Arbitration.

QUARANTINE.
DR. BOWRINGasked the hon. Vice-President of the Board of Trade, if any important change or modification had lately taken place in the quarantine regulations, or whether there was a probability of any changes being made; and, also, whether

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the Government was willing to lay before the House in an official shape any documents upon the subject.
MR. M. GIBSONsaid, the only new regulations he was aware of had been made during the past month, by which ships from Turkey, loaded with unenumerated articles only, having clean bills of health, and with every person on board free from the suspicion of infection, were in future to be released from all quarantine; the regulations would be laid on the Table of the House.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
MR. BOUVERIEdrew the attention of the right hon. Secretary of Ireland to sixteen proclamations of presentments for public works in Ireland in a recent number of the Dublin Gazette; these presentments, he apprehended, were made under the Act of last Session. He wished to ask, whether it was intended by the Government to sanction further employment of the people under these presentments, after the measures just introduced?
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, the measures which were intended as substitutes for the Act of last Session, had only just passed the Legislature, and had not yet come into operation. He could assure the hon. Gentleman there was every anxiety on the part of the Government to reduce and extinguish the system of public works as speedily as might be consistent with the peace and safety of the country.
MR. HUMEasked, whether any express orders had yet been issued on the subject?
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, most precise and positive directions had been given to the Irish Government to carry this intention into effect.

THE CASTLEBAR UNION.
VISCOUNT DUNCANbegged to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the letter circulated that morning from Mr. Otway to the Poor Law Commissioners, in reference to the Castlebar union. Mr. Otway stated that, on an examination of the rate-books of that union, he had found that rates were now due from solvent parties, and that they were recoverable. The letter further alluded to a belief which generally prevailed, that the Government would see the expediency of making advances on the security of the several unions; and what he (Viscount Duncan) now wished to ask was, was it the intention of the Government to make
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any such advances of public money, and also what steps had been taken to enforce the collection of rates due by solvent parties in the Castlebar union?
SIR G. GREY: Since the instructions, an explanation of which had already been given, had been addressed to the Lord Lieutenant, no additional instructions had been issued on this subject. With regard to the latter question put by the noble Lord, he would find, on referring to page 20 of the correspondence relating to the union workhouses in Ireland, that on the 29th of January the Poor Law Commissioners wrote to the board of guardians of the Castlebar union directing that there should be transmitted to them as soon as possible a list of all defaulters in the payment of poor-rates in the union; and that, on the same day, in another communication, they desired the board to collect rates as usual, and to make every exertion to enforce the payment of the rates on all parties in arrear.
MR. B. ESCOTTdesired to know if the right hon. Gentleman could state whether or not Lord Lucan had paid his share of the rates of that union; and if he had not, had he refused on the ground of poverty?
SIR G. GREY: It had been stated in very strong terms in that House, and repeated elsewhere, that Lord Lucan was not the person from whom the rates, for which he was assessed and which he had refused to pay, were due, and he had no further information to give on that subject. Lord Lucan was now in Ireland; and if, on more minute inquiry, he should find that he was liable, it was to be hoped he would no longer refuse to pay the rates.
MR. P. SCROPEasked if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the Government had advanced large sums, the rates not having been paid up regularly, in the Cavan union?
SIR G. GREY: If the hon. Gentleman had read more carefully the correspondence which had been laid on the Table, he would have seen that there was no intention of relieving the ratepayers further in any union at the expense of the Treasury. Directions had been addressed to the Pool Law Commissioners, and also he might say to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, that no means should be left untried by which the collection of rates from solvent parties should be enforced. At the same time it was suggested that, in urgent cases, and to prevent that additional suffering and distress which would result from the clos-

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ing of a workhouse, the Lord Lieutenant should advance relief, at certain times, and as his discretion might dictate. The Cavan union was not the only union entitled by an order from the Treasury to such indulgence; and the same discretion had been exercised towards that union which would be evinced elsewhere.
MR. HUMEwould recommend that a resolution be adopted that relief should be forwarded to the different unions only in proportion to the amount of rates which had been paid.
SIR G. GREYapprehended that the hon. Gentleman, to effect that object, would have to submit a Motion to, and obtain the sanction of, the House.

THE RUSSIAN-DUTCH LOAN.
MR. STUART WORTLEYwished to put a question to the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department, which had arisen out of the discussion of the previous evening; but the noble Lord, he perceived, was not now in his place, and perhaps therefore the noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury would have no objection, in his absence, to give the answer. In the record of the Convention of 1831 it was stated that the contracting parties had to refer to the Convention of 1815; and the noble Lord was understood in the course of last night to say that those words in the Convention of 1831 referring to the adhesion of Russia to the general arrangements of the Treaty of Vienna, as one of the considerations of the renewed convention, were introduced at the request of the representative of Russia in this country. The question he desired to ask the noble Lord opposite was, whether there would be any objection to lay before the House such portions of the engagements and documents respecting this Convention of 1831 as would be demonstrative of that fact? He would have postponed making the inquiry, had it not been that the debate would be resumed on Thursday, and that it was of importance to have every information on the subject before the House as early as possible.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The discussion will be renewed on Thursday. With regard to the question which is asked, I am not sure if that to which I alluded is stated in any protocol; but I shall be prepared to speak more positively on Monday. If any such document is in existence, I will lay it before the House.

CANTEENS IN BARRACKS.
On the Question that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
COLONEL LINDSAYrose to submit the Motion of which he had given notice—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to direct inquiry to be made into the effect that the present Canteen system has upon the Army; and whether it should not be advantageous to discipline and to the moral improvement of Her Majesty's troops, to prevent the sale of spirituous liquors in Canteens within the precincts or proximity of barracks."
Upon the manner in which the House would deal with his proposition, depended, he was convinced, much of the comfort of the great body of the members of that profession to which he belonged. The House would find, on looking to page 46 of the Ordnance Estimates, that the sum of 65,739 l. was derived by Government from canteens and sheet washing; and that, after deducting about 11,986 l. for washing, there remained, as the annual profit on canteens, 53,752 l. He would explain to the House the manner in which the system worked. A canteen was rented for three years; at the expiration of that time a new tenant was obtained by calling for tenders. The highest tender was invariably accepted, if after a rigid inquiry into the person's character and condition, they were found satisfactory. The tenant was obliged to find sureties to a large amount for the payment of the yearly and fixed rent; and this rent was a specified sum for the buildings and appurtenances; and, in addition, a further sum, fixed by tender, for every ten men (exclusive of sergeants) who occupied the barracks; and besides this, if the barrack was not occupied to the full extent, in consequence of married soldiers living out of barracks, or men being in hospital, the tenant was also obliged to pay for them at the same rate, so long as the numbers did not exceed what the barrack was calculated to hold. The tenant paid all the taxes, assessments, &c. Therefore the greater number of men in barracks, the greater the profit to the tenant. The rent was always strictly exacted, and as it was also high, and the profit dependent upon the numbers who frequented the canteen, and upon the amount consumed, the effect was, that the tenant was obliged to make exorbitant charges to procure him a profit, and to resort to adulteration of the articles, and to gross extortion. The duty of regulation lay with the Ordnance; but it was impossible to prevent this frequent and gross

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extortion from the mode in which the canteens were let. The subject which he particularly wished to bring under the notice of Government was, that in these canteens spirits were permitted to be sold, as well as other articles; and that, consequently, they very greatly tended, if unregulated, to produce a general demoralisation of the men. Such a demoralisation did not result from long service. Young recruits, with money in their pockets, were early seduced by the older soldiers, whose funds were long ago exhausted, into the canteen, and that which at first was but a chance visit became a habit. It was his object to forbid the sale of spirits in these places, and thus to remove the temptation. He did not suppose that the evil to which he called attention, had been foreseen. Regiments could not do without suttlers; and the authorities had thought they therefore might as well establish the canteen; and, as some one would profit by the rule, of course it was as acceptable to the Government as to anybody else. He did not deny the use of a canteen; all he asked was, that they should forbid the consumption of spirits. If they did not do so, they would find all their attempted reforms ineffectual. The Secretary at War had issued different warrants for the establishment of normal schools and of savings banks, and for accomplishing other most desirable improvements in the social state of the Army; but if they still granted to the soldier the facilities which now existed for obtaining ardent spirits, they would in vain endeavour to detach him from the canteen and its temptations. With the discontinuance of the sale of spirits, would cease that attraction which was now found in idleness. He could point to instances in which men under the influence of spirits had knocked down their superiors, and that in circumstances which could not have occurred had beer only been sold in the canteens, and had it been necessary to go out of the barracks to procure spirits. He had known the case of a man who, disgusted with the discipline to which he was subjected, went to the canteen, got drunk, and afterwards struck the non-commissioned officer by whom he was drilled, for which, of course, he was sent to prison: this occurred in Canada, not in England. It might be said that the same things occurred among the operatives of this country; but it should be recollected that if a civilian did knock down a policeman when drunk, it involved no more than punishment by fine; but it
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was different in the Army, and the House ought to recollect the frightful consequences that were entailed on the soldier when he was guilty of drunkenness and insubordination. It appeared from a return which he had in his hand, that the principal crimes committed in the Army were drunkenness and insubordination, and that the latter seldom happened without being caused by the former. It appeared also that the greatest number of men guilty of insubordination committed the crime in barracks; and that the acts of insubordination chiefly took place on parade, or at the evening roll-call; and, what was a very extraordinary thing was, that the regiments which came from the East or West Indies, or from the Cape of Good Hope and other places, were more notorious for drunkenness and more violent than those at home, and that among them the number of capital punishments was greater than in other regiments. It was notorious that in the West Indies the soldiers had been known to add Cayenne pepper to the spirits which they drank, because they were not strong enough. It had come under his notice that the spirits sold in canteens had a more violent effect on the men who drank them than the spirits sold out of the barracks. He believed that the keepers of canteens often mixed their spirits with vitriol and other injurious ingredients, and the consequence was that they produced a greater amount of frenzy when drunk than did those taken out of the canteen. Such statements as these, he thought it was the duty of the Government seriously to consider, and, even at the loss of some slight income, to alter a system which was productive of so much injury. Supposing his Motion were to be carried out, he did not by any means expect that much immediate good would result from it; but he thought they might confidently look forward to a general improvement in progress of time. They would to a great extent protect the young soldier, and render it more difficult for the confirmed drunkard to get opportunities of seducing him into habits of intoxication. He believed it would be found that the present system of canteens was the cause of some expense to the country; for the habitual drunkard before he had served twenty-one years, generally became inefficient; and, according to the system still in practice—for the new regulations had not yet come into operation—the invalided man, whether he was a good or bad character, got more than

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the man who was discharged at his own request on a pension of 10 d. a day. The constitutions of drunkards were undermined; they became a burden to the country, and many a good man was unable to get his discharge in consequence, though he might have well deserved it. He believed it would not be difficult to show, that though an habitual drunkard and an habitual drinker were two different things, the one was as great an expense to the country as the other. There were men who never got drunk, yet who were always taking their glass; and he believed the constitutions of these men failed sooner than those of habitual drunkards. Many of these men were discharged on pensions, and in this way cost money to the country. It might be urged that the canteen system had the effect of keeping men in barracks; but he thought, if they were to look to the moral character of the soldiery as the point to be attained, the evils produced would greatly counterbalance any good that was derived from such a system. In 1836 a military commission was appointed, and they heard a good deal of evidence with regard to the system of punishments. The witnesses examined before that commission, were generally asked whether they were able
—"to suggest any means of reclaiming or eradicating the propensity of drunkenness so prevalent among the soldiery, and confessedly the parent of the majority of military crimes?"
The majority of the answers to this question entered into the first part of it; and a variety of proposals were made, such as a reduction of pay, confinement, &c.; but very few entered on the subject of canteens, though one or two certainly did. Among these was the present Governor General of India, who said, that before he left the Board of Ordnance
—"he had in contemplation a minute recommending that a portion of the canteen rent, which is a species of tax levied upon the soldier, should be applied to his recreation in the barrack-yard."
Now, if, as Lord Hardinge remarked, the canteen rents were a species of tax upon the soldier, he thought that the tax should be used for his improvement, not for his demoralisation. The present Adjutant General (Sir J. Macdonald) certainly took another view of the case. He thought that the soldier, by having the canteen at hand to resort to, even when he was in the very act of drinking, was in some measure in the trammels of military discipline. Sir E. Blakeney thought canteens should be let upon lower terms, and better regulated.
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Sir C. Smyth considered that canteens should sell malt liquors only, not spirits, and stated, that "if he had authority, not a single glass of rum should enter the barrack-yard." Sir Colin Campbell thought the sale of spirits should be prohibited in canteens. Another officer strongly urged the prohibition of the sale of spirits in canteens; and stated his belief that in nine cases out of ten, men would not take the trouble to dress themselves to seek it out of barracks. Another witness whose evidence he would refer to, was one whose authority the House would respect. He had served in every quarter of the globe—in one or two of them in a military capacity, but in all of them in a civil capacity; and he had served both under the last and the present Government—he meant Sir George Arthur. That officer said—
"We encourage a soldier to drink a small quantity of spirits, and we punish him for drinking a large quantity, though we know that a small quantity disarms him of caution as to the danger, and that the daily habit creates a physical necessity, which the utmost fortitude cannot successfully struggle against."
A medical officer of great experience and authority, Dr. Ferguson, late Inspector General of Military Hospitals, who had served both at home and abroad, in a work published by him some years ago, said—
"A ration of spirits, as an article of daily diet, ever engenders a craving for more, so imperious and irresistible, there is no crime the soldier would not commit, no abomination he would not practise, for its gratification. Punishment, when put in competition, has then no terrors, and the fear of death is set at nought. He would drink, though the king of terrors stared him in the face, and rather than go without it, he would take that drink out of a jakes, or from the most disgusting vehicles hnman imagination can conceive."
If the system of canteens excited this propensity in the soldier, and if spirits tended thus to injure his constitution, and to disqualify him for the service upon which he had entered, it ought to be put out of his power to indulge in this propensity, instead of his being tempted to give way to it. Dr. Ferguson went on:—
"The army canteens have ever been institutions of drunkenness; and it is difficult to believe how an abuse so monstrous, and a nuisance so palpable, could have been tolerated so long and to such an extent. It shows the difficulty, in our service, of carrying even the most obvious reforms into effect, when anything in the shape of improvement comes to be proposed to the disturbance of existing interests, or even bad habits of any kind. If kept up at all, it must have been from the high rent that was paid to the barrack department. But how these authorities could reconcile the

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gains thus obtained at so much deadly cost to their consciences, must remain a problem."
Supported by these great authorities, he was justified in saying that the use of spirits in canteens was not only a nuisance and injurious to discipline, as well as prejudicial to the health of the soldier, but that it was also expensive to the country by causing the early annihilation of his constitution; and therefore he thought he did right in bringing the matter before the House. And when it was known that much power had been taken away from commanding officers, and that corporal punishment had been reduced, and when all sorts of improvements were being introduced into the Army, he thought he was justified in calling upon the Board of Ordnance and the Government even to yield up some of the income of the State which was derived from this source, in order to get rid of this evil, whereby they would raise the character of the service, improve the moral condition of the soldier, and conduce to the efficiency of the Army.
MR. F. MAULEwas not going to defend the system which had been pursued in canteens to a great extent, or to enter into the details which had been referred to at so much length by the hon. and gallant Officer who had just sat down; but he must say that the remedy he proposed by his resolution, although founded on the best of principles, might not be very easily carried out by a distinct vote of the House. But it would not be perhaps disagreeable to the hon. and gallant Officer to learn that the minds of the authorities had been already turned to this question—and that they were considering at this moment how the canteens could be put on a better footing, so as to form part of that general amelioration of the whole state of the soldier, which both the authorities at the Horse Guards and Her Majesty's Government had sincerely at heart. The hon. and gallant Officer would remember that the canteens, though attended with considerable inconvenience when they were allowed to be put to improper uses, were of great advantage to the soldiers in barracks. There were many articles to be obtained in those canteens, which it would be inconvenient on many occasions for the soldier to have to seek without the walls or without the precincts of the barracks. And even with reference to the sale of spirits itself, the canteen was so immediately under the control of the commanding officer, that if he were to exer-
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cise his proper authority, there could be no doubt that with vigilance—common vigilance—many of those evils which the hon. and gallant Officer alluded to, would, in ordinary cases, be prevented. But he was free to confess that it was not easy for a commanding officer to exert all the authority he possessed; there were difficulties in his way; and he was ready to admit, that a commanding officer should not be put in the responsible situation of either ordering the canteens to be closed altogether, or else to submit to evils, which, under the circumstances, were beyond his control. He would not detain the House by going into any of the cases which the hon. and gallant Officer had referred to. He admitted at once, that under many circumstances the sale of spirits in canteens led to evil; but in answer to that, he begged also to state that the total absence of the sale of spirits in canteens might likewise lead to evils in another direction. The hon. and gallant Officer did not trace the original establishment of canteens. He believed they were originally established for the sale of spirits exclusively in barracks, and were afterwards extended to other articles; but they were originally established for the sale of spirits exclusively, for this reason, that an order in that day existed that no spirits should be introduced into barracks, and the spirits introduced there were all smuggled in, and in such a way that it was impossible for the utmost vigilance to prevent it; and it was thought better to establish the sale of spirits by a recognised authority in a place within the barracks, over which the commanding officer would have entire control, and to do away with that practice which formed a serious military crime, namely, connivance in smuggling spirits for the use of the soldiers in the barracks. He had no doubt it might be possible, by a strict regulation, so to restrain the sale of spirits in canteens, without the necessity of banishing it altogether, that it should not lead to evils such as the hon. and gallant Officer had described as applicable to it. He perfectly agreed with the hon. and gallant Officer, there was nothing from which they ought to protect the soldier so much as the seduction of the confirmed—he would not say drunkard, but—hard-drinking man; a man so accustomed to spirits as to carry off, without effect on him, that which would make ten recruits utterly unfit to appear on duty. Those were the sort of men who led away the younger troops of the

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Army; and by placing the canteens under proper regulations, so that those men should not have the means of seducing the young recruits into them, they would do a great deal to put an end to the evil. He could inform the hon. and gallant Officer, that the whole system of canteens was about to undergo careful consideration, and would be put on that footing that, while the canteens afforded the soldier in barracks all the convenience they were intended to give, it would be next to impossible they should in any way whatever conduce to the deterioration of the soldier's morals, or in any way render him unfit to perform the duties which he engaged to do when he enlisted in the service. With these observations he should conclude, and he trusted the hon. and gallant Officer would not press his Motion to a division.
SIR HOWARD DOUGLASwas rejoiced to learn from the right hon. Gentleman that the Government were disposed to take up this question, and to inquire into the whole of the canteen system with a view to put it on a better footing. Much of the canteen system of the present day was the remains of ancient abuses. There was a time when the great profits accruing from the consumption of liquor by soldiers in canteens, were applied to make messes cheaper to the officer. In a command held by himself not a long time ago, he found that the mess allowance of wine allowed to the officers, was paid out of a fund which was created by advancing the price of liquor on the subalterns. He immediately put an end to it. That fund was now appropriated less objectionably; but he would tell the right hon. Gentleman that the canteen system could never be put on a wholesome or on a moral footing adapted to the improvement of the soldier, until the Government and the canteener ceased to receive a profit from the tax payable on what the soldiers consumed. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would take into his consideration whether the canteen might not be made a most convenient and desirable and moral adjunct to the barracks, to be resorted to by the soldier for other purposes than those of intemperance; and if any profit should be allowed to accrue from the sale of beer—for certainly he would exclude spirits altogether—he should propose that that profit, instead of going to the credit of the Government, or into the pocket of the canteener, should be applied to the benefit of the soldier; and if to the canteen, to
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induce the soldier to resort to those establishments for moral and intellectual purposes, as well as for refreshment. He would propose that there should be attached to every regiment a canteener, on the terms that he should derive no profit from the consumption of liquor; that a sufficient salary should be given to him; that he be induced to take an interest in the moral advancement of the soldier, and endeavour to put an end to those pernicious influences which, to his (Sir H. Douglas's) own knowledge, and to his regret, he had long seen and deeply lamented.
MR. GOULBURNcongratulated his hon. and gallant Friend who had brought forward the Motion, on the statement which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War. His hon. and gallant Friend had only in view that the subject should be thoroughly inquired into, and had afforded to the House the benefit of his long experience in the discipline of regiments; and as the Secretary at War had distinctly stated that the whole subject of canteens was at present under the consideration of Government, and that they were prepared to make such arrangements with respect to them as would not impede, but rather assist to promote, the discipline of the Army, and tend to improve the morals and comforts of the men, he thought his hon. and gallant Friend would cordially acquiesce in the withdrawal of the Motion that had been recommended by the right hon. Gentleman. With regard to the lax system that prevailed in some of those canteens, he thought, however difficult it would be to impose restraints on the sale of spirituous liquors, the question whether the Government should make a profit on this liquor, was one of a different character. He was of opinion that canteens might be converted into places where the soldier could enjoy himself by the fireside, without indulging to the extent that would cause intoxication.
COLONEL ANSONdid not think the subject was properly understood, and wished to say a few words with respect to the manner in which these canteens were generally supposed to be managed. He begged to call the attention of the hon. and gallant Officer who brought forward the Motion, to the regulations of the warrant of 1838; and when they recollected that the regulations at the present moment were so extremely stringent, that it entirely rested with the commanding officer himself

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whether those canteens were well conducted or not, he thought the hon. and gallant Officer had extended his observations further than was necessary. He (Colonel Anson) would, with the permission of the House, read the regulation with respect to canteens: and he thought every hon. Member would agree with him that sufficient powers were vested by it in the commanding officer to see that the very strictest regularity was observed in these places. By that order the canteen keeper was bound to keep regular hours; not to allow persons to become intoxicated; to obey all orders of the Board of Ordnance and commanding officer; and he must obey the instructions given to him on pain of ejection from the canteen. He believed the hon. and gallant Colonel was in the full pay of the service, and where he was in command he had control over the canteens; and he must also add, that if there were any irregularities reported to the Board of Ordnance, they had the power of ejecting the tenant on a week's notice. He would say one word with respect to the way in which canteens were let: they were let by tender, and no person was accepted as tenant unless he could produce sufficient sureties for the amount of rent he had undertaken to pay, and also for his character. He thought it necessary to say thus much upon this subject, as he was afraid it might go forth to the country that there was no regulation with respect to these canteens, and that it was in the power of the canteener to do what he pleased.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, it appeared that a great number of commanding officers felt a deep objection to the present system; and if they felt they had such unlimited powers as it would seem they had by this regulation, which had been quoted by the hon. and gallant Colonel, why did they come forward and give this evidence in the face of the military authorities, unless they felt there were difficulties in the case? It was quite certain that if the commanding officers conceived they had the power given by that regulation, they need not look to any higher authority; but it seemed that some regulation was necessary on the part of the Government. He was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War, that the Government had directed their attention to the subject, in connexion with other arrangements that were now carrying on for the improvement of the condition of the soldier. He regretted to see there
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was some little bias on the part of the right hon. Gentleman as to the inexpediency of prohibiting spirituous liquors in these canteens. He (Sir de Lacy Evans) would not venture to offer any positive opinion upon the subject; but he should wish the Government to try the experiment, for some time, of prohibiting spirituous liquors altogether. He entirely concurred in the proposition of his hon. and gallant Friend opposite, as to the necessity of appointing a canteener; he thought it would tend both to the good of the Army, and the profit of the Excise, if a suitable salary was given to an officer of trust to conduct those establishments, and that no profit whatever should be derived from them.
MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid, it appeared to him, from the official experience he had, short as it was, that nine-tenths at least of military offences had their source in intoxication, and that a large portion of those nine-tenths arose from offences springing from the abuse of canteens.
COLONEL LINDSAYexpressed his satisfaction at the announcement made by the right hon. the Secretary at War, and begged to withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.
Question again put.

CULTIVATION OF THE LAND (IRELAND).
MR. JOHN O'CONNELLa, pursuant to notice, begged to draw the attention of the House to the advisability of employing the labouring population, now engaged on public works in Ireland, in the tillage of the land. He was very desirous to call the attention of hon. Gentlemen to this subject; but, at the same time, he was anxious to bring it forward with as little inconvenience to the progress of public business as possible. He was well aware the present was not the best opportunity to select for the purpose; but he was induced to bring the subject forward by a circumstance which had occurred on the preceding evening. He alluded to the announcement then made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, with respect to the number of persons employed on public works in Ireland, and which induced him to intrude upon the House for a very short period. The announcement of the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have struck the House very much, and to have produced a considerable effect. It appeared from it, that a number of per-

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sons, so large as 668,000—[An Hon. MEMBER: 700,000]—or as 700,000, for that was the number of persons, which, appeared by the last weekly return, was employed on public works in Ireland. Hitherto, he believed, instead of any blame being attached to the Government, they were entitled to the thanks of every humane person, for endeavouring to provide employment for the people. But the question now was, while this system was to be carried on, whether it would not be better to employ the people in the cultivation of the land, which was neglected to a serious extent in many parts of Ireland. It was not necessary, he conceived, to impress upon the House the importance of this subject. Every hon. Member had seen in the public accounts that anticipations of scarcity were rife in every country in Europe. They were told by the public press that in France the amount of food required was far beyond what was anticipated; and that not only in that country, but in the other countries on the Continent, the scarcity of next autumn was likely to be beyond anything yet conceived by those who considered the subject. At home, they had in the Agricultural Gazette a warning held out to them that wrong and mistaken opinions were entertained as to the amount of corn in the hands of farmers and food merchants; and dependence upon a great quantity in their hands, would prove to be fallacious, and a fatal mistake. Under these circumstances, and considering the slowness of cultivation in Ireland, he thought it imperative that the attention of the House should be called to the matter. He thought it well, however, that the subject should not be broached sooner than at the present moment; for if there was any public notice that a suggestion had been made that the Government should undertake in any way, however indirectly, the business of cultivating the land, it might be expected that private exertions for that purpose would be paralysed where private exertion would otherwise be used. But at the present moment, he thought there was no time to lose in having the subject thoroughly considered. He believed that private exertion was now made to the fullest extent; they had every reasonable hope of seeing it made for the proper cultivation of the land for the next crop. In the Gardener's Chronicle, there appeared an article from the pen of Professor Lindley, which strongly urged the necessity of considering the subject, re-
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minding them that the month of March was approaching, and that no time was to be lost in taking measures to procure an extensive cultivation throughout the two countries. Whether that would be restricted to merely the green crops, or should extend to wheat, or other such grain, it was not for him to say; but that seed should be supplied to Ireland, and the people set to work in cultivating the land, was the proposition which he deemed it his duty to bring before the House, and to press on the attention of Her Majesty's Government. The grand jury of the county of Longford had passed a resolution on the subject, which he would read to the House:—
"We call on the Government and the Commissioners to allow the relief committees to employ on the land those now wasting labour and money on the roads, reminding them that the time for such employment will have passed, and our prospects for the next year be left more dreary than at present."
He believed it was the intention in various parts of Ireland to follow up this resolution by resolutions from other bodies to the same effect. There was a perfect unanimity amongst all classes, that the cultivation of the land should be taken in hand by Government, otherwise the scarcity of next season would be worse than anything they had yet experienced. He called the attention of the House to a letter written by the rector of Cong, the Rev. Mr. Moore, who stated that the people there say, "We should not fear anything if we had seed." He also called the attention of the House to a communication received from a Catholic clergyman in the county of Roscommon, with reference to the want of seed. In some districts, however, it would not be necessary to put the system which he proposed the Government should adopt in operation. In some, and he believed in many districts, private exertions would be available for the purpose. He could mention one case where that had already occurred, and which he had seen noticed in an Irish paper on the preceding day. He thought it right to mention the name of the individual who had set so laudable an example. He resided in the county of Meath; his name was Brenan, he held the lands of Rahane and Clonsilla, and he had announced that he would give premiums for the best and second best cultivation of every acre of oats that his tenants should undertake. In some parts of Ireland the suggestions which he sought to press on the Ministry and the House

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would be inapplicable, for the people in distress at Skibbereen were too much reduced by famine to be fitted for labour; but in other parts of the country, where as yet they were only on the road to the frightful state of things that existed in Skibbereen, they had not fallen so low as to be unable to work. Several of those persons were now working on roads, which in the absence of any other occupation was useful as affording the means of living; but it would be desirable if, instead of being engaged in cutting up the roads, they could be sent to cultivate the land, and thus afford them some chance of having a supply of food. He thought that some assurance should be given by the Government that when men were taken off the works to cultivate their holdings, that they should be ensured the possession of the crops. In some parts of Ireland the people made it a pretext for the non-cultivation of their land, that if they did so the landlords would seize upon the whole of the produce, and leave them as poor as ever. He thought that Government could provide for this under the provisions of the Labour-rate Act, so that the tenants could be ensured the enjoyment of their crops. Some hon. Gentlemen might think that his proposition was too large a scheme for the Government, and that it would ensure a much larger expenditure than any yet spoken of. That such a course would be advantageous was the opinion of many well acquainted with Ireland, and that the money now expended would be less thrown away in the cultivation of the soil than in the present mode of expenditure. It had been suggested in another place by a noble Lord, who was entitled to respect, as well from his own character as from his high station, that the tendency of the relief ought to be such as to make Ireland rely on herself for the future. Such observations might induce the House to abstain from giving further aid, for the destitution, he feared, was much greater than was anticipated. The people of Ireland had nothing to look to as a resource, for their whole capital had been destroyed by the failure of the crops. The right hon. Secretary for Ireland had estimated the amount of loss by the calamity at 17,000,000 l.; but this was not the only loss, for the seed for the present season had also in a great measure been destroyed, or been consumed and dispersed. To such an extent also had the resources of the people been wasted, that they had parted with the manure for
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the cultivation of the soil. He would not venture to estimate in money the amount to be added to the 17,000,000 l. of loss; but he would ask the House to recollect that all that had been done to meet this was the 10,000,000 l. proposed to be given by the Government. To meet so large a gap there was nothing to be depended on in Ireland. If they looked to the landlords, they would find that the employment given by them in ordinary years would not be sufficient to employ any great number of labourers so as to afford sensible relief. He believed also that not one-half of the rents of Ireland had been paid this year; and with such diminished funds would they throw the charge on the landlords to supply the deficiency beyond the ten millions? There had been a great deal of talk in the newspapers respecting an increase in the deposits in the savings banks; but it would be found that the chief part of this had been placed there by persons preparing to emigrate. He must express his heartfelt satisfaction and gratification at the munificent charity which had been displayed in this country for the relief of the destitute people of Ireland; but it was impossible to suppose that private charity could supply the vacuum that existed in the amount that would be required. But when he looked with satisfaction at the private charity which had taken place in England, he could not allude without a feeling of pride to the subscriptions which had been made by the poor emigrant Irish in North America, and which amounted to the large sum of 200,000 l. The question, however, was, how was the large deficiency to be supplied? He would suggest a mode by which two or three millions more a year might be spent in Ireland without injury to any one. He alluded to the absentee landowners, who by their present conduct acted as soldiers did who run away from an army while engaged in the face of the enemy. He could not understand why the Government, or the House, who naturally were anxious to provide means for the relief of the destitution with as little burden on the public funds as possible, did not resort to some measure with respect to the absentees. There were five or six millions going out of Ireland every year, the expenditure of which, he thought, could be ensured in that country, if the House passed a strong resolution, calling upon the proprietors of land, at least for the present year, to return to their country and do their duty. He wished to throw out these matters for

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the consideration of the House and the Government; and he trusted that, before they passed the Bills on the Table, they would see whether they could not embody some of them in these measures. With respect to the state of the absentee property, he would refer the House to a statement which had appeared in the most recent Irish papers:—
"The Upper Leyney Committee (county Sligo), the Dean of Achonry, chairman, have anticipated the relief Bills. The district contains 97,000 acres, with 30,000 inhabitants, of whom two-thirds are destitute. Five hundred families get soup daily, and 1,000 families meal gratuitously weekly. In all cases of destitutes having land, and employed in cultivating it, an allowance is made of two pounds of meal and two quarts of soup daily, so long as they are at the loss of their wages on the public works, if occupied in sowing the land. Only on the estate of Mrs. Armstrong, of Chaffpool, has seed been provided from the commissariat depôt, and therefore there are active preparations made for cropping. Proprietors worth from 3,000 l. to 8,000 l. a year have not given a shilling, and it is only the resident proprietors who are doing their duty nobly in other parts of their estates, who have contributed at all. The largest proprietor in the district (an absentee) has, within the year, contributed one farthing in the pound of his rental in the district; and the smallest proprietor (a resident) has given 15 s. in the pound."
Such a state of things ought not to be allowed to continue. He wished to suggest, in the first place, to the Government that they should furnish seed to such an extent as to enable the tenantry to proceed with the cultivation of the soil; and, secondly, that without changing any of the machinery now in existence for the employment of the people, that they should draw the people off the public works gradually, and put them on the land for the purpose of tillage. They had that night heard of new presentments having been made for public works; now instead of employing the people on them, and breaking up the land for roads, they should put them at once on the land. If the principle laid down in Mr. Labouchere's letter, and on which they had lately legislated, was applied more extensively, it would be attended with the most beneficial results. Under that Act it would be competent for the Government now to act, and employ the people in tillage instead of on the new presentments. The next suggestion which he would make was, that something should be done to make some provision between the landlord and tenant, so as to give some security to the tenants, by telling them that if they cultivated the land, they should have some security that the landlord should
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not be allowed to come down upon them and take away everything for rent. The next suggestion he would make was, that something should be done for the security of the tenant in the case of improvements. The last suggestion which he should make I was one of great importance, namely, that the landed proprietors should be compelled to go to the place of danger, and be made; to share in the general sufferings of the country, and they thus would have five or six millions more expended in the country, and that without any charge to the State.
MR. LABOUCHERE: Sir, I will say to the hon. Gentleman that I am not at all disposed to express any surprise, much less any censure, that he and other Irish Members should take the occasion, whenever the forms of the House allow it, to bring the subject of the condition of Ireland before the House. That condition, Sir, is so very calamitous, that I am not surprised that those Gentlemen take every opportunity of impressing it on the House and the public. But I trust the hon. Gentleman and the other Irish Members will do me the justice to admit that I have never attempted to underrate the importance of the crisis; and I will say that, in my opinion, if any circumstance was necessary at the present juncture to stimulate the Government or the Legislature to do everything in their power for the benefit of their Irish fellow-countrymen, it would be found in the patient endurance of calamities almost beyond human power to sustain which the suffering people of Ireland have manifested. I make this remark with reference to the general body of the Irish people; but I also refer particularly to the people of Connaught and the west coast of Ireland, where the distress has been almost inconceivably great. Sir, the hon. Gentleman has made to the House certain distinct proposals, adapted as he considers for the amelioration of the present fate of the Irish people. Now, I feel that it is the duty of a Government, when proposals of this kind are made to them, to state distinctly what is their opinion upon those proposals. Doubtful, ambiguous language which may lead to misconceptions of the intention of Government, is not true humanity on such an occasion, but it is most likely to lead to deplorable results. I trust, therefore, that it will not be thought inconsistent with true humanity an the part of the Government, or with an anxious desire to do good to Ireland, that I am every day more convinced that it is not merely not the duty

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of the Government to do for Ireland that which the hon. Gentleman has pointed out as the proper course for us to pursue, but that it is not possible or practicable if we wished it. Under the circumstances of this peculiar case, the Government and this country have taken an unusual and extraordinary course, that it would have been totally unjustifiable for any Government to have taken under other circumstances. Following in the steps of our predecessors, we have attempted to employ the people of Ireland—a task which is beyond and not belonging to the functions of the Government, and which no Government could carry into effect without an abundance of abuses and many evils arising. For my own part, I beg to say that I entered on that course not blind to the inevitable rise of those abuses and evils, and I ventured to point out what those abuses and evils would be; but, nevertheless, I thought it was best upon the whole to adopt that course for the relief of those miseries of Ireland which I thought it was impossible for any Government of this country, in the nineteenth century, to sit by and see increasing without some attempt at relieving. Sir, I do not regret that we did so. I know now that the attention of the House and of the public has been aroused to the state of Ireland; that if we had allowed pestilence and famine to walk unchecked and without any attempt to impede them, in my opinion there would have been a cry of indignation and horror from one end of the country to the other, condemning the Government for having pursued that course. But circumstances have occurred that have rendered it impracticable to go on with the present system of public works. The first consideration is, that they have grown to such a magnitude as to have become wholly uncontrollable and unmanageable. My noble Friend told you the other night that we were now doing what I believe is unprecedented in the history of the world, employing no fewer than 700,000 persons on public works, controlled and paid by a central body; and here let me stop for a moment to do that justice which has not yet been fully done to a most deserving public body—the Board of Works in Ireland. I believe that nothing but the unwearied diligence, the spirit, energy, and activity of the officers of that board would have enabled them to discharge the duties set before them; they have managed by incessant exertions and the most anxious care to keep the system in good order without
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any general or manifest abuse; but it has not been possible wholly to accomplish that object. The hon. Member for Kilkenny has adverted to a most momentous subject. We have arrived at a time when labour must be applied to the cultivation of the soil in Ireland, if we do not mean to see the same events as at present occurring next year. I have no hesitation in saying that the employment of this great body of people on the public works is inconsistent with cultivating the soil. Every account from Ireland convinces me that there would have been no possibility of getting the people to apply themselves to the cultivation of the soil if the system of public works were continued. Have we then attempted to do that? Not at all; we have substituted another system for the system of public works, which we believe is more calculated to meet the evils of the present time; and we have asked the House to agree to a system, not of supplying labour, but of supplying food to the great body of the people. The Irish Government are now employed in arranging those complicated measures which are necessary to carry out that altered system. Do I say that the new system is not liable to abuse? I do not. I am satisfied that the Government will find some evils to arise out of their attempt to supply food, as they found some to arise out of their attempt to supply labour to the people. It cannot be otherwise, because it is not within the functions of a Government to supply food any more than employment to its subjects. There will be great abuse, I am convinced; but it is no reason because there will be abuse that we are not to do what we can for the relief of the evils of Ireland; and I believe that from the system last adopted, there will, on the whole, be found to arise the least amount of evil with the greatest amount of benefit. The House may depend upon it we shall do all we can to prevent abuse; and, in doing that, we shall be assisted by the relief commiteee, at the head of which is Sir J. Burgoyne, who with such devotion tendered his services to the Government—we shall do all we can to check abuse; but I should not deal fairly with the House if I said that I expected we shall be able to feed the great mass of the people without abuses, any more than we were able to employ the people without abuses. My excuse is this, that it is not fit for a Christian Government or a Christian Legislature to see their fellow-creatures swept

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from the land by famine and pestilence without doing what they could to check and control the progress of the calamity. But the hon. Gentleman asks us to cultivate the soil of Ireland by the direct interference of the Government. I will deal frankly with the hon. Gentleman, and tell him that would be impossible. I believe the attempt—for it would be only an attempt—to do it would lead to failure, and would paralyse the energies of Ireland. Indeed, it would be nothing but a failure. I think, therefore, it most fair to him and other Irish Gentlemen to say at once, that I altogether decline, on the part of the Government, to undertake that which is altogether beyond the functions of a Government, and could only lead to mischief. I say the same with respect to the supply of seed. To supply seed to a whole people, is that which no Government can undertake to do. I say that the provision of seed on the part of the Government would cripple private enterprise, and lead to irreparable mischief. I have had remonstrances and letters from all parts of Ireland from seedsmen, in respect to the seeds for green crops, of which they have laid in great stocks; large quantities of seeds of this kind have been accumulated in the principal towns of Ireland to meet the spring demand; and that I regard as a most striking instance of what can be done by individual exertions, as contrasted with what a Government can do in a question of this kind. With regard to the cultivation of the soil, it is impossible to overrate the importance of making every effort for preparing the soil for the crops. I believe that in many parts of Ireland every exertion is made by the landlords in order to encourage their tenants to cultivate and sow the land; but I am sorry to be obliged to agree with the hon. Member for Kilkenny, that there are parts of Ireland where, I fear, that duty will be neglected. I know very well what is the crippled condition of many Irish proprietors just at present; I know that it is unjust to ask them to do that which it is impossible they should do at the present moment; but I hope that both from motives of present interest and of patriotism they will be willing to do that which is in their power for the encouragement of their tenants in this respect. When we consider how much of Ireland is held in small holdings, and how many there are who have lost the whole of their small stock of potatoes, and how incapable they are of obtaining seed, I do hope that every
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exertion will be made in their favour by the Irish proprietors. I do not, however, rely entirely on that; but I hope that what the Government has already done with the sanction of the House, will produce a very considerable effect. The principle of that measure is, that relief shall no longer be given in wages, but in food; and I hope that the result of it will be, that men who have received that food which is to sustain them, will go either on to their own land, or on to the land of the farmer, and there endeavour, for wages, to earn their future subsistence; and I do assure the House, that it will be the business of the Government to endeavour to ascertain the real circumstances of those who apply to them for relief in food, and to take care, as far as they can, that the population shall not neglect the cultivation of the land for an attendance upon the soup-kitchen. I think it would be most dangerous that the population of Ireland should be encouraged to live in idleness; but I think they will feel they ought to labour when at the public charge they have been receiving food in order to enable them to subsist in the meantime. I will read to the House an extract from a letter which happened to be put into my hands just before I came down, as I think it will illustrate the manner in which checking the public works will operate. Major Fitzgerald, inspecting officer of relief in the county of Clare, says, in his report of the week ending Saturday, February 27, 1847, with respect to the baronies of Upper Tulla and Upper Bunralty:—
"For the first time I have the pleasure of reporting that this week I have seen tillage in progress in my district. Some of the workmen have left the roads to sow their wheat and oats. I am aiding this salutary movement in every way I can. I have struck off from the relief lists, this week, upwards of 1,200 names, and shall probably get rid of more next week. Two of the committees have complained to me, that, in consequence of the public works, there is a difficulty in getting horses for farm labour. I have requested the engineers to dispense as much as possible with horse labour."
Sir, I do not know that I need trespass further on the patience of the House; but the hon. Gentleman reminds me that I have not referred yet to what he said on the subject of absenteeism. I assure him that I am not more in love with absenteeism than he is. There are many absentees, however, some of whom I have the honour of knowing, that most honourably have done their duty; but I will not compare anything that can be done by an absentee

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with that which it is in the power of a resident Irish landlord to do, for he is able to encourage and support those around him both by his example and his advice. Some absentee landlords, I am bound to say, sadly and shamefully neglect their duty; and I know many instances, like those mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, where the resident proprietors have come forward with their time and their money to assist their distressed neighbours, and where they have owners of a very considerable property held in the district who refuse to come forward with anything whatever to relieve the destitute of the place. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I agree with him in thinking that the proper place for an Irish landlord, under the present circumstances of that country, is in Ireland; but I must say, that if a sense of their duty to their dependents and of their public duty to their country does not operate with them to produce that effect, I am afraid that a resolution of this House would have very little efficacy to bring about that result. With respect to the question of landlord and tenant, I have to say that the Government has attended to the subject of the improvement of the relations between landlord and tenant; and though I do not adopt the notions of the hon. Gentleman, I am fully aware that it is a subject of vast importance, and I can assure him that it is one that has not escaped the attention of the Government. Before I sit down I may say that I have very great satisfaction in finding that many proprietors in Ireland are entering into engagements with their tenants for advancing them seed, in order to enable them to cultivate their small holdings, the tenants being bound to give them a lien on the next crop. I think that is an admirable arrangement, and I hope the landlords will adopt it extensively. I think it will not be prudent to touch such a subject by means of a legal enactment, for I am convinced it will be much better to leave it to be arranged between the landlord and tenant; and I certainly hope that the arrangements I have mentioned will be extensively adopted in Ireland. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the subjects to which he has referred have deeply engaged the attention of the Government; and if I do not adopt his suggestions it is because I do not think it would be for the interests of Ireland that the Government should do so, these not being questions in which a Government can profitably interfere.
MR. SHAWsaid, that he should have concurred with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. O'Connell), who had introduced the discussion, on the advisability of employing the labouring population, now engaged on the public works in Ireland, in the tillage of the land, were it only practicable. He must, however, frankly say that he did not think it was practicable; but that, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) had stated, if the Government made any such attempt, it could only lead to disappointment, and result in failure. The duties of the present board had been sufficiently onerous and complicated in administering the public works of Ireland; but what would these difficulties be, if a board were appointed for the public farming of the entire country? So with regard to seed, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), that to give seed corn on a scale commensurate with the wants of Ireland would be impossible; and to hold out the hope could only raise expectations which could not be realized, and would tend to paralyse individual exertions. Before he sat down, he must advert to a subject which had been urged upon the Government in the early part of the evening, in the shape of not very regular questions—he meant the proposition of the hon. Member for Montrose, and other hon. Members—that the Government should name an early day simultaneously and peremptorily to put a stop to the public works throughout Ireland. Such a step would be fraught with the utmost cruelty and danger. Did those hon. Members consider, that if, as the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had stated that night, there were 700,000 men employed upon those works, that made about three millions of persons depending upon the wages earned at those works for their subsistence; and if that was suddenly stopped, what was to become of that mass of persons? He had lately received a letter from a very active chairman of a relief committee—an extract from which, bearing on the point of that difficulty of transition from the public works to the ordinary occupations of the people, and also as to the increasing distress amongst them, was as follows:—
"I do not believe there is any labour relief committee in Ireland which has found the smallest difficulty in supplying the farmers with labourers from those they had not room for on the public works. We could certainly have done so here, even where no cottier tenantry exist. Every one who knows the state of things in this country is unable to understand how that enormous surplus

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labour population is to find employment. Occasional days will not do: a man cannot even half live, which is all they are able to do now, without weekly wages. The distress has greatly increased—the people have used every means to keep afloat; pawned every article they possessed, almost to their clothes. They then went in debt—now all fails them—every saleable article is gone—so is their credit, and this while the public works are going on."
Again—
"Any one who has had practical experience of relief committees, knows the almost insurmountable difficulty of selecting proper objects for recommendation to the public works; but now that the temptation to fraud will be so much greater, that difficulty will be considerably increased, and I believe almost every man, woman, and child in the district will apply for relief—and not consider it a disgrace to exist upon charity."
The whole case was indeed truly difficult of solution. It would be ungracious to blame the Government, who, he believed, had done their utmost to meet the emergency. He cordially joined with the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) in acknowledging the munificent liberality of the people of England. He was glad that the hon. Member had referred to the proceedings of a committee in Sligo, presided over by the Dean of Achonry, in which ample justice was done to the exertions of the resident gentry of Ireland, where it was stated—and he was persuaded it was but a fair sample of the country generally—that not less than fifteen shillings in the pound of their incomes had, one way or other, been lately spent in alleviating the sufferings by which they were surrounded. It was true that the Labour-rate Act on which they had been acting, and the Temporary Relief Act that was then substituted for it, had been open to many theoretical objections, and were necessarily exposed to many practical abuses; but it had not been a matter of choice: dire necessity was their justification; and if that was said to be the tyrant's plea, famine had been the tyrant, and it had driven them to the alternative of adopting some such measures to satisfy the exigency of the moment, or of suffering thousands—it might be millions—of the people to perish of want. He could only again say, in conclusion, that he could not in fairness attempt to fix upon the Government the responsibility of tilling or sowing the land in Ireland: he could only hope that the relief committees might be able to stimulate the people to the cultivation of the soil, and to adopt such means as might best help them through the present calamitous crisis.
MR. M. BELLEWsaid, that when the Poor Law was passed it would do more than anything else for the improvement of Ireland; and he could not concur in the suggestions of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, believing that his proposals were impracticable, and that if they were practicable they were not desirable. The difficulty of any arrangement between landlord and tenant would be a great obstacle to any such works as were now proposed from being carried on. He was not one who thought that the public works had been altogether unserviceable; and if they were, all were responsible for them, and not the Government alone. The present calamity was like a fire or an inundation; and therefore it was fair to do all in their power to relieve it: this, in his opinion, had been done by the 10,000,000 l., and he did hope that, though they did not accede to this suggestion, the quantity of land which would remain untitled would be very small.
MR. FITZGERALDthought that the people employed should be changed from the public works and turned upon the land. It must be three weeks or a month before the Bills now before the House would become law; and in the interval he asked whether it would not be better to employ the people in tilling the land than in unproductive works? Every one who had heard the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, was convinced that the Government had done their utmost to benefit the people of Ireland; but it would be impossible for the greatest exertions of the landlords to make up for what was lost; and he thought that the Relief Commissioners should have power to select works on the land, and he did not see any difficulty in taking a certain number of hands from the public works and securing the crops for the present year. In a letter, dated the 1st of March, it was stated that the land for ten miles round Limerick, on both sides of the road, was uncultivated; and it was not too late now to supply the deficiency, though it would be if they waited till all the Bills passed. Then, with respect to a supply of seed, he thought that desirable, because the farmers had been living on their seed corn, on the faith that the Government would render assistance. The resident landlords had done all in their power, and more than they could well afford, to relieve the distress. He regretted that the non-resident had not equally assisted, for he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that no sum they

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could send to Ireland could compensate the Irish tenantry for their non-residence; and he would compel all the landlords to reside during the next six months on their estates, and not leave those who were resident alone to contend with the distress.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend; but the argument used by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, for the purpose of inducing Her Majesty's Government to reconsider the proposal of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, induces me to rise, not so much to attempt to argue the question, but to declare what is the opinion and determination of Her Majesty's Government upon this subject. The hon. Gentleman expressed a hope that we should interfere, and should undertake the tillage and sowing of the land. He says that this is the time, and that very soon the opportunity will be lost. At the same time the hon. Gentleman gives us what I should think was a very strong warning against taking such a course, by stating what has been the effect of the determination I some time ago declared, that 50,000 l. should be given for seed. I had hoped that the small amount of that sum would obviously only be applied to particular cases; and, as the noble Lord opposite said it would not buy 25,000 quarters of oats, that it would prevent any extravagant hopes being raised. But the hon. Gentleman says, that numbers of farmers have consumed their seed corn, believing that they might obtain seed from the Government. If such were the result of that declaration, what would be the effect if the Government were to say that the tillage and sowing of the land of Ireland should be undertaken by the Government? Would it not put an immediate stop to all the ordinary means of tillage at this moment? Would not every farmer and labourer wait, expecting that the Government would undertake the whole? and the number of 1,100 officers, even if they were multiplied ten times, would be found unable to undertake so gigantic an operation. And what would be the end of our proposing to do so? I think it is therefore necessary that the intention of the Government should be understood. We lament very much that in certain instances, in certain districts, tillage has not proceeded; but I have still a great hope that that tillage will be found much more general than hitherto expected; but the only ground upon which I rest that opinion is the well-understood intention of the Government
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not to interfere, expecting the landlords, farmers, and labourers, will undertake the tillage and sowing of the land for themselves. I will not now enter into the question of absentees, and other subjects, thinking it better to discuss them when they come more immediately before the House.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, he had no intention of detaining the House; but he felt bound to say, he concurred fully in one sentiment which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary for Ireland, namely, that sufficient justice had not been done to the gentlemen who composed the Board of Works. Really, when the House considered the immense, and complicated, and onerous duties these gentlemen had to perform—when it considered the enormous responsibility connected with the superintendence of more than 700,000 labourers—the tendency to abuse, and, on the whole the quiet and orderly conduct of so large a mass, it was impossible not to feel that the highest praise was due to these gentlemen for their ability and conduct on such an emergency. He was anxious also to state, that he concurred fully in the opinions expressed by the noble Lord who had just sat down, and the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, in respect of the inexpediency of Government undertaking to employ people to till the land in Ireland. He knew there was a strong feeling on this subject in that country; but when the Government came forward and declared their intention of taking a course which might be unpopular in refusing to till the land, because they thought that an opposite course would really aggravate the evils of the country, he, entertaining the same opinion, felt bound to get up and say so, and take his share of the unpopularity of such a statement. He had no doubt, in his own mind, that if Government was to announce an intention of undertaking works of tillage, the effect would be to paralyse and suspend the tillage of the country, instead of promoting it. The right hon. Gentleman had recommended arrangements being made between landlords and tenants, by which the landlord might till the tenant's land for him, and repay himself in harvest. He believed there was a disposition on the part, both of landlords and tenants, in many parts of Ireland, to make such arrangements. He was afraid, however, the lands were untilled to a much greater extent than some hon. Members seemed to imagine. He had himself a great many letters on the sub-

979
ject; but he would not detain the House by reading them. But where tenants would not consent to make arrangements with their landlords, there were great difficulties in the way; and there was also another class of cases which he feared would be found numerous in the west of Ireland, he meant cases in which cottier tenants or small farmers abandoned their land altogether. In none of these cases had the landlord or any parties the power of entering upon the lands so abandoned. The law did not afford the means of doing so by any easy process. Now, he thought something might be done to meet those cases. He knew it was a difficult matter, and he would be sorry to give any advantage as against the poor cottier at a time like the present; but he thought a power should rest somewhere, either in the landlord or in the relief committee, or in the petty sessions, to let the land so abandoned for the next crop, perhaps to the adjoining farmer, as conacre for the tenant; and that after next harvest a certain portion of the crop should be apportioned to him as a payment for the use of the land.
MR. B. ESCOTTwas quite sure, that all those hon. Members who had listened to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, would give him credit for his anxiety to do everything that was in his power to mitigate the distressing evils which at present pressed upon the people of Ireland. He must, however, say that the longer he had been listening to these painful details, the more was he inclined to make up his mind to the conclusion, that, instead of any extraordinary measures of this kind being calculated to confer any real or permanent benefit upon Ireland, they were more likely to do harm than good. He was inclined to believe, from all that he had heard, that the only true measure to which they could trust, was that of giving every facility to the importation of food from all parts of the world. They should also inculcate the absolute necessity of observing the strictest economy upon all classes of the community in the consumption of food. That part of the subject was, he believed, not considered with that care which it deserved. The hon. Member for Kilkenny said, with the utmost apparent sincerity, that they could not economise in Ireland. [Mr. J. O'CONNELL: I said we have nothing to economise.] Yes; but they had something to economise. Did they not know that every bushel of wheat made into wheaten bread
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might be extended to double the quantity if it were made into a much more wholesome and nutritious article of subsistence? Would not that be economy? Those who had examined this subject, stated that they could make from two bushels of wheat, by economical management, as much and more nutritious bread, than was generally made by the ordinary mode out of three bushels. They would be thus saving at least one-third of the wheat that was at present generally consumed in bread. The House must acknowledge that a saving by this means of one-third of this farinaceous food would be the greatest blessing that could possibly be conferred upon the inhabitants of Ireland. It was one of the most admirable dispensations of Nature, that the most wholesome food from wheat was made by the waste known by the name of wheat-bran when brought into the manufacture of bread. The coarsest of bran with the finest of flour made the best and most wholesome bread that man could consume. When they considered that last Monday wheat was 76 s. a quarter in Mark-lane, the necessity for adopting this course was the greater, so that the present scarcity might not be still further aggravated.
Subject at an end.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
MR. RICEtook the opportunity of reminding the Government of the propriety of improving their harbours, particularly upon the southern coast of England. The French Government had proved themselves very active in this respect, in the improvements that had been recently effected in Calais and other harbours. He trusted that that feeling of pride for their naval superiority would induce the Government to devote their immediate attention to this subject. He knew he would be told that this was not the time for entertaining such a subject, because of the vast expenditure that they were obliged to encounter under the present disastrous state of Ireland; but he still did not think that this subject could be with safety much longer delayed, and he could only express his surprise that it had not been before attended to.

SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
House in a Committee of Supply.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that in moving the Ordnance Estimates for the service of the ensuing year, he wished it had been in his power to propose estimates more in accordance, with the views of the hon. Gen-

981
tleman the Member for Coventry, than those before the House; but he hoped that that hon. Member would not give an unwilling assent to them, provided he could show that they were both necessary and unavoidable. He was a strong advocate for economy; and however blameable it might be at any time to disregard that principle, it would be peculiarly so at the present moment, when there were so many demands upon the country. He believed, however, that there was as much economy in the application of means as in providing them. On a former occasion, the hon. Member for Montrose had said, that he would allow these estimates to pass without objection; he taking it as a matter of course that they must follow the Navy and Army Estimates; and that he would content himself with entering a protest against them: he would, however, assure the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Williams), who represented the hon. Member for Montrose, that he had no wish to avail himself of that forbearance; but that if any hon. Member objected to any one of the items, he hoped to be able satisfactorily to prove, that these estimates had not been prepared without due consideration and every regard to economy, and the efficiency of the service. The gross estimate for the ensuing year for the ordnance service, was 2,679,157 l.; for 1846–7, it was 2,543,569 l.—the increase, therefore, was 135,588 l. It would be seen, on reference to the notes in the abstract of the votes, that with regard to three items a considerable reduction had been made last year, in order to have a better arrangement, by only voting for the service of the year a sum of money actually to be paid within the year. The reduction so made, amounted to 67,299 l.; and he thought he had a right to deduct that sum from the apparent increase over the last year, and that would leave only 68,289 l. as the actual increase. The first vote he should ask from the House was for the pay, allowances, and contingencies of the ordnance military corps. That vote was 617,239 l. For 1846–7, it was 575,675 l.; being an increase of 41,564 l. Under that head were three services—the engineers, the sappers and miners, and the corps of royal artillery. Upon the first of these, there appeared to be an increase of 5,928 l. That did not arise from any increase in the establishment, but from the additional employment of the engineer officers; and it was unnecessary for him to say, that when those officers were employed or called upon
982
to undertake public duties, their efficiency was such that he believed, notwithstanding the expense, the public were fully compensated by the great utility of their service, and the knowledge and experience they displayed in it. It being a matter of notoriety, that whether in peace or in war the corps of engineers were pre-eminent for all those qualities which could be applied to useful purposes, he was confident that there was no Member of that House, nor any person out of it, who would grudge them the remuneration which was due to their merits. He might say as much for the sappers and miners; or, perhaps, more. This body was composed of most intelligent men, who applied themselves most assiduously to the discharge of their duties, and were equal to any service which they might be called upon to perform. There was only a trifling increase in the present estimate under this head. The sum required for the artillery exceeded that voted last year by between 30,000 l. and 40,000 l. The increase had been caused in this way: his noble Friend the Master General of the Ordnance thought it advisable that the number of the artillery force should be increased; and the Government, acting on his recommendation, had not hesitated to sanction the addition of 1,200 men for that purpose. The arrangement was now in progress. The recruiting was going on, and he was happy to state that no difficulty was experienced in getting men fit for the service; on the contrary, recruits of a better description were being raised than had ever before entered the service. In order to carry out the arrangement as economically as possible, it had been determined that the increase in the number of men should be unaccompanied by any increase in the number of officers. The number of men provided for by the vote of last year, was 8,222; that to be provided for this year, was 9,432. It was not probable that this number of men for the artillery would be deemed to bear an extravagant proportion to the whole military force of the country. Indeed, taking into consideration the various duties which the artillery corps were called upon to perform at home, as well as in our numerous and extensive colonies, it was a matter of astonishment that so small a body was able to meet the exigencies of the service. Still they had done so, and, it would be admitted, most efficiently. It must be borne in mind, that there was no prospect of the services of this corps being diminished in severity. The Government

983
had found it necessary to direct their attention to the improvement of our home defences, by adding to the efficiency of our internal and seaport fortifications. He trusted that no circumstances would arise to make manifest the necessity of having recourse to these measures; but, nevertheless, as the increase of fortifications had been determined on, there must be a corresponding augmentation in the number of men to man them. If, as he hoped, no occasion should arise to test the wisdom of the measure, with reference to the circumstance at which he had merely glanced, the increase in the number of the artillery corps would, nevertheless, be productive of advantage, by the facilities it would afford of extending the system of reliefs to foreign stations, which was essential to the efficiency of the service. The second vote was for commissariat and barrack supplies for the land forces, and great coats and clothing for the army. The sum required under this head, was 370,464 l.; that voted last year, was 340,881 l., making an increase this year of 29,483 l. This increase was susceptible of easy explanation. It was attributable to the increased charge for commissariat supplies, and also to the great advance which had taken place in the price of forage for cavalry horses. The price of rations was 3d. a head more in Ireland, and 1½d. more in England, than it was last year. The excess of charge on the commissariat supplies, as compared with last year, amounted to 33,652 l., and on barrack furniture, 2,000 l., making a total excess of 35,652 l. Under the head of great coats and colonial clothing, a considerable diminution of charge appeared in the present estimates; amounting to no less than 25,142 l., as compared with the charge for that item last year. Deducting that decrease from the sum previously mentioned, namely, 35,652 l., an actual increase remained of 10,507 l. But one-twelfth of the sum required for commissariat supplies not having been voted last year, an excess was occasioned this year of 18,976 l., which caused a total increase on the estimate for 1847–8 of 29,483 l. In point of fact, however, had it not been for the unavoidable excess this year of 33,652 l. for commissariat supplies, occasioned by the extraordinary rise in the price of provisions, there would have been a considerable diminution in this vote. There was also an increase in this vote of 7,000 l. for increased issue of fuel to the troops, which had been last year the subject of
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some remarks in that House; and it would also be seen that there was a larger sum required by 4,150 l. for the actual quantity of coals, &c. for barracks in Great Britain and Ireland, arising from the increase of price in that article beyond that of last year. The third vote was 96,447 l. for salaries in the ordnance offices in the Tower and Pall Mall. It was unnecessary to trouble the Committee with many observations upon this vote. Objections had sometimes been made to the establishments, on the ground of their being more extensive than was requisite; but, speaking from his own experience, he could say that the objection was not well founded. The clerks employed in the offices were most efficient, and devoted the whole of their time to the service of the public. There was a small increase in this vote, amounting to 1,544 l., which was accounted for chiefly by the introduction into the Tower of the metropolitan police force, to supersede the old system of watching. Any person who was acquainted with that locality, must be aware that the alteration which had been made in this respect was a considerable improvement. Vote 4 was 228,130 l. for the establishments at home and abroad. There was an actual decrease on this vote, as compared with last year, of 2,035 l.; but to show this, it was necessary to take into account 7,129 l. for one-fourth of the ordnance salaries at foreign stations not voted last year, which caused an apparent increase in the total vote for 1847–8 of 5,105 l. The sum called for in Vote 5 was 137,852 l. for the wages of artificers and labourers employed at the several establishments in the United Kingdom and colonies. The sum required under this head last year was 125,392 l., which was less than the present vote by 12,460 l. The augmentation this year was caused by the increased number of artificers employed at Woolwich on naval and other equipments, and likewise by an increased expenditure at the Cape of Good Hope, arising out of the Caffre war. The increase which had taken place in other branches of the public service necessarily occasioned an increase in this department. It had been found necessary to augment the numerical strength of the laboratory and the carriage department at Woolwich. This department had been reduced too low before, and under the peculiar circumstance of the time, it was absolutely necessary to get up arrears. Vote 6 was for ordnance stores. The sum required for this item last year was 390,184 l.; that for this

985
year was 368,712 l., showing a decrease of 21,472 l. It might appear contradictory of the observations which he had made with reference to the last vote, that a smaller sum was required for ordnance stores this year, than was called for last year. The fact, however, was, that very large sums had been voted of late years for ordnance stores. In 1847 no less than 225,493 l. was appropriated to that purpose. He believed that those votes were necessary, but still the ample provision made for the public service under this head, in former years, gave the Government an opportunity of calling for a much smaller amount on the present occasion; and that circumstance explained the diminution in the charge for stores in the present estimate. The vote referred to a most important branch of the service. Nobody could suppose that the sum taken for the supply of small arms, namely, 120,000 l., was larger than was required, on account of the great change which had taken place in their structure. It was satisfactory to know that, with the exception of two or three regiments coming from abroad, the Army was now supplied with arms constructed on the new principle. A gradually increasing supply of arms would be kept up every year, but the stock would not be permitted to accumulate to the extent which was apparent at the close of the late war, when there were 700,000 or 800,000 muskets in store. For the supply of iron ordnance, shot, and shells, for land and sea service, the sum of 57,431 l. was required, being 7,431 l. more than was voted last year. Considerable changes were always taking place, as the hon. and gallant Admiral opposite knew, in the construction of ship guns. The authorities on this point never seem to have been agreed as to the description of guns which ought to be supplied to the Navy. He hoped that the present Board of Admiralty would take this into their serious consideration, and only sanction those alterations which were manifest improvements; and by acting upon this principle, the country would be saved a large, and, in some instances, perfectly useless expenditure of money. The next vote was No. 7, 632,765 l. for works, buildings, and repairs; the sum required under this head last year was 611,986 l., showing an increase in the present estimate of 620,779 l. The circumstances of the time had imposed upon the Government the necessity of considering the propriety of improving the defences and fortifications of the country. It must
986
be apparent that the substitution of steam for sailing vessels in the marine of foreign countries had placed England in a different position from that in which she formerly stood; and it was necessary we should be prepared to meet any emergency which might arise. The Government, being deeply impressed with the importance of these considerations, had exercised a wise discretion in the way in which they had appropriated the sum voted for the estimate at which he had now arrived. Formerly, it was the practice to expend large sums in colonial works; at present the money voted was to be principally expended on works at home. He would enumerate some of the items which were comprised in the present estimate: Purchase of land for defences for the dockyard at Pembroke, 20,000 l.; improvement of fortifications at Plymouth harbour, 9,805 l.; battery at Picklecombe Point, 9,000 l.; improvement of fortifications at Guernsey, Alderney, and Sark, 8,909 l.; Liverpool new battery, and site for new north battery, 4,000 l.; fortifications at Portsmouth, 11,638 l.; fortifications at Sheerness, 14,217 l.; about 5,000 l. for Bermuda, a most important position for the protection of our commerce, and as a naval station; 6,000 l. for rebuilding the sea wall at Demerara; 20,000 l. for works at Gibraltar; 8,700 l. for a new hospital at Grenada, which might appear a large sum, but was, in fact, the general hospital for the islands in those seas; 12,000 l. for the Ionian Islands; 12,000 l. for improving the fortifications at Malta; 5,000 l. for the Mauritius, also one of our most important colonial possessions; and 9,000 l. for completing the citadel at Halifax. A considerable sum had also been taken for barracks—30,000 l. for Preston, and 10,000 l. for a new barrack at Sheffield, which was most urgently required; and when they considered the demands that had been made upon the Government to improve the comforts and conveniences of barracks generally, and which had been attended to and followed out wherever the want was most apparent, he trusted the House would not disapprove of the vote which was now submitted to them. He must also mention the sum of 40,000 l. for the conversion of buildings to be used solely for the reception of soldiers convicted of military offences; and 5,000 l. for washing places in the barracks. The next vote to which he came was 58,986 l. for the expense of the scientific branch of the surveying department, being a

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decrease of 2,000 l. from the vote of last year. The question of the surveys of Ireland and Scotland had often been mooted in the House, and complaints were made from both countries. From Scotland the complaint was, that the whole amount voted for the survey was not expended there. This was true. Out of the 10,000 voted for Scotland, on an average not more than 3,000 l. had been appropriated. But the money was not spent in any other way; it was returned into the Treasury and was still available. There were good reasons why it had not been used; the fact was, the whole strength of the survey establishment was required in Ireland, it being deemed most necessary to carry out and complete the survey of that country; thus all their strength had been directed to Ireland instead of Scotland. The scale of the map of Ireland had given rise to much discussion; it had been proposed to give them a 1-inch map as well as the 6-inch one, which was now nearly completed. The smaller scale would be more convenient; but there was no doubt the larger one was superior in the degree of information it afforded. The opinions of scientific societies had been taken, and were decidedly in favour of the large map; but whether it should be left to the trade to reduce the maps to the scale of three, two, or one inch, according to convenience, or that the Government should undertake it, had only lately been decided in favour of the former course; and considering the large expense of the latter map, taking it upon themselves—namely, 60,000 l. at the lowest probable estimate—the House would probably concur in the propriety of their decision. In the vote for the scientific branch were included the expenses of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich, in which there was no increase over last year. The next vote was for the non-effective services, military and civil, 168,532 l., showing an increase under this head of 48,073 l. in the present year. The civil non-effective service had exhibited a large diminution during the last ten years; but it had been accompanied by a corresponding addition to the military branch. He believed he had now stated all the estimates in the order in which they had been presented to the House. The increase in some of the items arose from unavoidable circumstances, such as the high price of provisions and forage. He knew that the expenses of this department had always excited observation; the
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total now was 2,679,127 l., while ten years ago it was 1,500,000 l. He thought it right, therefore, that the House should be made acquainted with the different services which had been thrown upon the ordnance department within the last few years. The board itself did not originate these expenses; it was called on to supply services transferred to them from other departments. In 1834, the whole sum demanded was 1,604,000 l.; in the present year, it was 1,000,000 l. more than that amount. Persons were naturally astonished at this large increase of expense; but it was entirely caused by expenditure thrown upon the board from other departments. Thus, in 1835–36, the commissariat was thrown upon it, involving an expense of 261,367 l.; in 1839–40, for works and repairs in the Ionian Islands, 24,000 l.; in 1842–43, for colonial barracks in Jamaica, 7,757 l., and barracks in Mauritius, 7,000 l.; at different periods various new establishments had been placed under the board, with an expense of 130,623 l.; in 1844–5, for black servants allowed to civil officers, 2,928 l.; in 1843–4, for hire of buildings and barrack accommodation in the colonies, 43,157 l. These two items were previously charged to the Treasury. In 1845–6, for clothing, &c., for colonial corps, 19,397 l.; pay of military librarians, 892 l.; lodging money to regimental officers at home, 3,000 l.; an item for great coats for men added to the line and artillery, in 1833–4, for surveys of counties, 15,000 l.; for providing buildings for soldiers convicted of military offences,40,000 l.; for wash-houses for soldiers in barracks, 5,000 l.; for additions to military corps in 1843–4, beyond the number in 1833–4, 171,108 l.; the amount expended in fortifications, works, and repairs in the present year, above the sum required for the same purpose in 1833–4, was 393,293 l. Taken with these additions, the vote for 1833–4 would amount to 3,026,348 l.; for this year, also including the charge for these additional services, the vote was 2,862,484 l.; the same services were, therefore, actually less this year than in 1834 by 163,864 l. The new stations that had been placed under the board since 1834 were the following: Sydney, Hobart Town, Toronto, Rideau Canal, Carillon, Graham's Town, St. Helena, Honduras, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Pembroke, Birmingham, Weedon, and Fort Garry; these created the before-mentioned item of 130,623 l. He wished to make one remark as to the appropria-
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tions in aid, contained in these estimates. He confessed he would much rather see none; he thought the produce of the sales of Ordnance property, instead of being appropriated to their current expenses, had far better be carried to the credit of the Treasury. He could not see any objection to this course; it would simplify the estimates, and, as the country would get the money, it would come to the same thing. He was sorry to have detained the House so long with details which might appear to many extremely dry; but they could not be uninteresting to those who watched the course of events both at home and abroad. It was essential to look into the details; and it would be readily acknowledged that no branch of the public service embraced more important, as well as essential and interesting duties. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving a Vote of 617,239 l. for pay, allowances, and contingencies for 12,392 officers and men of the several Ordnance corps and departments for service at home and abroad; which having been put,
MR. WILLIAMSsaid, he should perhaps do better in letting these estimates pass without remark, as the hon. Member for Montrose did last year; they were called on to vote several millions, and during the greater part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement there were only twenty-nine Members in the House. This proved how little interest was taken in the question, and how little encouragement there was for any one to point out what he conceived to be an uncalled-for expenditure. The hon. and gallant Officer had referred to the estimates of former years, and explained the increase by the new services that had been thrown upon the Ordnance Department. In 1834 the estimate was 1,068,000 l.; in 1835, 1,151,000 l.; in 1840, 1,893,000 l. Now, in 1840 England was engaged in the Chinese war, and had the largest naval force afloat she had had in any year since the peace; we had not less than seventeen sail of the line in the Mediterranean, all to be equipped from the Ordnance Department. He now asked the hon. and gallant Gentleman the same question he had put to the Secretary at War—what was the necessity for this great increase? He objected to the increase in the estimates for the artillery. This was, no doubt, an important branch of the service, and one which it was incumbent on them to have always in a most efficient state; but the estimate was much higher
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this year than it had been during twenty years, and some account should be given of the causes which had led to this change. He thought that difficulties would never cease to present themselves to the House when called upon to assent to the different estimates, if that rule which prevailed in France and in the United States were not adopted in England—if a Committee of Inquiry were not appointed to examine into and report upon every separate item.
SIR HOWARD DOUGLASsaid: I rejoice at the increase in the number of artillerymen, but think it very inadequate to the wants of the service. We have increased and improved our coast defences, mounted everywhere an immense number of additional pieces of ordnance, but our establishment of artillery is still utterly insufficient to man them, even with the smallest proportion of well-trained artillerists. Gunnery in another war will not be playing at bowls; and whatever expense we may go to in improving the material of our defences, the country will not be safe unless they are efficiently manned. I shall not name any particular places; but, in reply to the hon. Member for Sheffield, who asks an explanation as to the necessity of this increase of artillery, I will just advert to three points of defence—stations with which I am professionally well acquainted, and have had something to do. On one, there is mounted 329 pieces of ordnance; and how many artillerymen does the hon. Member think are there? Why, about half a man per gun! I advert to another, on which there are 175 pieces of ordnance at least, and there the proportion is about the same. I know of a foreign station on which there are 335 pieces of capital powerful ordnance mounted; and there are not half the number of men in that garrison. And then, the wants of the service in this respect in other parts of the world. When the native war commenced in New Zealand—a formidable war, which required absolutely a considerable artillery force, and for want of which we suffered severely—we had not, as I told the House at that time, a single artilleryman, nor a piece of field ordnance of any description in the whole of our colonies in that quarter. I trust that adequate additions may be made to this important branch of the service, without which all our other improvements will prove unavailing.
MR. GOULBURNthought, with the gallant Officer (Sir H. Douglas), that the

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increase in the artillery estimates had been unavoidable. Last year the Government reviewed the service, and undertook certain improvements, and the additional expense which was now submitted for consideration had been incurred in carrying out and perfecting the suggestions and experiments of the late Government. There was no doubt that the safety of the country had demanded the increase of which the hon. Member complained. He did not think that the gallant Officer would be able to carry out his views with respect to the manning of a more extensive scale of fortifications at home and abroad; to attempt the accomplishment of that which the gallant Officer evidently considered so desirable, would be altogether without the bounds of common prudence. He regretted that his gallant Friend did not think it advisable to resume those naval experiments which the Court of Admiralty, in 1845 and last year, had pursued with such benefit to the service. They could not ensure efficiency without trial of every plan, project, and recommendation appearing at all feasible; and it seemed to him that expense in such a manner was never more satisfactory. His gallant Friend gave great credit to the late Administration for the efforts they had made to amend the system of military imprisonment. Last year, 39,700 l. was taken for the express purpose of constructing military prisons. The sum of 40,000 l. was now proposed under the same head; and the gallant Officer would, perhaps, inform the House, why there was no evidence of the first sum having been expended in that way in which it had been intended, and why this 40,000 l. was again necessary? He (Mr. Goulburn) approved highly of the course which was to be taken in Canada. Last year the fears which prevailed that war might result from the dispute relative to the Oregon territory had required that every precaution should have been taken in providing for the safety of the North American colonies; but, by the good fortune of his noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen), this discussion had been amicably closed, and that expenditure which before it was incumbent on them to advise, could not this year be justified. He certainly regretted that, in respect to one work in Canada — the canal connecting Quebec with the upper provinces—there had been any economy practised. That canal, both in a military and commercial point of view, was a most important work, and its completion should not be neglected
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or postponed. The barracks at Jamaica should also have been built ere this; it was desirable that the troops in that colony should have that accommodation upon which the preservation of their health depended. He trusted the buildings would be completed without delay, and that no expense would be spared. The barracks at the Tower were publicly of less importance; but the troops required those improvements which had been suggested, and it was the imperative duty of the Government to make every exertion in caring for the comfort and amending the social condition of the soldier.
COLONEL ANSONreplied, with reference to the Administration not having thought it advisable to incur any further expenditure in trials and experiments in the Navy, that their objection was founded upon the supposition and belief that the late Government had left nothing in an inefficient state, and that consequently new experiments were not necessary. As to the 39,000 l. which had been voted last year for military prisons, he begged to inform the right hon. Gentleman that that sum had been devoted to the object, and that, as the estimate for the works was 100,000 l., the 40,000 l. which he now proposed to take would still be called for. The canal in Canada had not been deemed an undertaking of such paramount importance, and it had, therefore, for the present, been deferred, while they were engaged in the completion of other works. The sum taken for the barracks at Jamaica, would, he thought, be quite sufficient. Steps would be taken in regard to the barracks at the Tower as soon as possible.
DR. BOWRINGexpressed his dissatisfaction with the mode in which the accounts were presented, and hoped that this would be the last occassion on which they would appear in such a form.
MR. WILLIAMSthought the item in regard to the 9,000 men of the artillery required explanation.
COLONEL ANSONstated, that those men were divided among 53 stations at home and 34 abroad. The proportion of the artillery to the regular army did not approach one-eighth the proportion which Napoleon approved, and the soldiers in that branch required a longer training than in others.
Vote, with several others, agreed to.
On a Vote of 58,986 l. being proposed for the scientific branch of the Ordnance survey,
MR. SMOLLETTdirected the attention of the House to the fact that grants formerly voted for the ordnance survey in Scotland had not been expended; and he wished to know what guarantee there was that the sum now proposed for that purpose would be expended on the survey in Scotland?
COLONEL ANSONobserved, that sums granted for the survey in Scotland had not been expended in that country, because the survey had, since that time, been confined either to England or Ireland. It was not considered right to divide the party engaged in the survey, as such subdivision would only have the effect of lessening the amount of work performed. The hon. Gentleman might rest assured, however, that the sums granted by the House for the survey in Scotland would be expended on that object.
MR. SMOLLETTbelieved it would be found, that while the sum voted for Scotland was only 56,000 l., a part of that amount had not been actually expended on the Scotch survey, but returned to the Treasury.
CAPTAIN PECHELLwished, before this vote was agreed to, to inquire what had been done with respect to the Military Academy at Woolwich. It appeared from The Times newspaper, that a commission had been sitting to investigate the state of the Academy, but he was not aware whether any report had yet been made, or that anything had been done beyond building a wall and iron railing to keep the gentlemen cadets within bounds.
COLONEL ANSONstated that no report had yet been made with respect to the Academy. He was quite aware that great interest was felt in this subject; but, at the same time, he would caution hon. Members not to believe all the stories they saw in newspapers. With regard to the particular circumstance mentioned by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, of an iron railing being put up, the fact was that it had been thought desirable to have a palisade to prevent people getting in, but it was not meant to prevent the cadets getting out. He had no doubt that any regulations that should be adopted would be found to be worthy of the education for a service than which none was more honourable.
Vote agreed to.
The sum of 168,532 l. was voted for non-effective Ordnance services, military and civil, for the year.
The Committee having disposed of all
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the votes for the Ordnance, proceeded to the remaining

NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the first Vote,
SIR H. DOUGLASsaid: I hope my gallant associates, hon. Members belonging to the profession whose affairs we are now discussing, will not deem me an interloper if I make a few observations on the present occasion. Whilst I greatly approve, and am satisfied with the general character of the estimates for the present year, and admire the ability with which they were brought forward, I must at the same time express great regret and disappointment that no vote was taken for a purpose which I think of the first importance, and even indispensable to the safety of the State in these times; and which I cannot doubt the Committee would have received by acclamation, and the country would learn with general approbation—I mean a vote to provide, in some form or other, for a reserve of seamen to be organized and kept always ready to form fighting crews, for a moderately extended establishment in case of any emergency or combination; thus to insure, that in the event of any aggression upon us, any sudden breach of the peace, the first operations might be telling and triumphant. The material of our Navy is in the most efficient condition. We could commission in a day twenty or thirty sail of the line, and innumerable smaller vessels. Our armament is the most perfect in the world; our ships and fleets commanded by excellent, and in many cases experienced officers; and those vessels might gradually be manned by abundance of British seaman, trained to the sea by our commercial marine, if we touch not the great principles of our navigation laws. But where are the men to man, promptly, those ships for the first emergency of a war?
The Secretary of the Admiralty stated most correctly that power is relative; and he referred accordingly to the prodigious exertions, and the liberal provision made by the French Chambers for the extension of the maritime and naval power of France; and I concur with that hon. Member in admiring and applauding the lofty policy of a country that permits no considerations of pecuniary economy to interfere with matters intimately connected with the maintenance of national safety and power. Now, Sir, France, exclusive of her seamen

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in her active ships, provides a large reserve of seamen, ships' crews, ready to man a very considerable number of additional ships of war, by means of the establishment of what she calls the "Equipages de Ligne," of which I hold in my hand the first "Ordonnance" for the organization of those establishments; and also the decrees by which they have been more recently increased in number and improved in composition. Let us see the increase in the number of seamen voted in the Marine Budget since 1830. In that year it was 12,963 men. In 1843, the number of seamen was 26,926. In 1845, it was 29,073, of whom 23,704 are to serve afloat; the remainder forming reserves of "Equipages de Ligne" in the ports. I think one hundred companies of the "Equipages de Ligne" were first established. The creation of others, the last being of fifty new companies, has since been decreed. A division, formed of a considerable number of these companies, is established at each of the five ports—Brest, Toulon, Rochefort, L'Orient, and Cherbourg; the two first being of the first class. Each division of the first class is commanded, in chief, by a "capitaine de vaisseau," assisted by a "capitaine de frégate," and a "capitaine de corvette," and five lieutenants. The divisions of the second class are commanded by a "capitaine de vaisseau," with a smaller staff. Each company is composed of two lieutenants, a certain number of "elèves," 10 petty officers, and 60 seamen, able, ordinary, and inferior, and 26 boys. Exclusive of these, companies of boys are established at Brest, consisting of 127 boys each; at Toulon, 157 each; at Cherbourg, 65 each. The companies of the "Equipages de Ligne" are always kept up to their establishment: first, by the "Inscription Maritime;" second, by the law of enlistment; third, by voluntary engagements. Then there is established in each of the principal naval arsenals, a "depôt," or gunnery establishment, for the training of naval gunners; of which there is always a considerable reserve kept ready; and there are two gunnery frigates, I believe of the second class, kept always afloat, to train the gunners so educated to sea practice. These vessels attend the squadrons of evolution, and are thus "depôts" and reserves of well-trained gunners. Then, exclusive of these establishments, there are extensive establishments of marine artillery and marines. When a vessel is brought forward for com-
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mission, the greater part of her crew is at once given her, by embarking a certain number of these permanent companies; the regulated quota of gunners is transferred to her, which, according to regulation, is such as to supply first and second captains of guns. The quota of marines is added; and the Prefect Maritime furnishes whatever additional hands may be required to complete the crews. This indicates, sufficiently, the indispensable necessity of our having some establishment of reserved seamen ready to form the fighting crews of a certain number of ships suddenly commissioned in case of any emergency. I feel convinced that this cannot have escaped the vigilance and the forethought of the late Admiralty, and that the noble person who presides over the naval affairs of England, and the able and distinguished officers who aid and counsel him, are alive to, and must have prepared some plan of this kind; and I earnestly hope that no considerations of pecuniary economy will deter Her Majesty's Government from speedily adopting some such plan. The hon. the Secretary of the Admiralty, adverting to the state of our coast defences, referred to the vast out lay making in France on works which we have too long neglected. I hold in my hand the Projet de Loi, preceded by a detailed exposé, to which the hon. Member the Secretary of the Admiralty adverted, of the motives and objects of the immense outlay, for which credit was taken by the vote of that Session, in addition to the sums voted in 1841, when, it appears, a great stimulus was given to those works. These amount to no less than 126,560,900 francs — about 4,800,000 l. sterling thus appropriated. To Cherbourg, 15,500,000 francs; to L'Orient, 8,000,000 francs; to Rochefort, 3,000,000 francs; to Toulon, 14,300,000 francs; to Havre, 25,880,000 francs. Never has any nation made such stupendous exertions—such successful efforts in creating, or at least recreating, a naval power of the first order as France since 1815. Her commerce had been destroyed, her commercial marine ruined, her naval power destroyed; but, guided by a lofty policy, sacrificing nothing to her docteurs économique, she has restored her commerce, fostered her maritime resources, and reconstructed a formidable naval power. Not in the days of Rodney and De Grasse, Hughes and Suffren, was the Navy of France more powerful than it is now. No British statesman, of whatever

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party, can, or ought, to be unmindful of this. No British House of Commons, however economical in other respects, should affect to disregard this. Distant may the period be, when these tremendous powers are to be called into activity; but whilst we are determined to commit no act of aggression, let us not fail to provide effectually the best means of preserving peace, namely, to be well prepared for war; and that, if any act of aggression, any pregnant ambition be attempted against us, we may always be in a condition to make the first blow of a war the most effectual, and so herald a course of successes as signal as those which distinguished the commencement of the late war, and terminated with an ever memorable naval victory.
DR. BOWRINGsaid, if the hon. and gallant Officer had read the official documents attentively, he must have known that there was no power in the French Navy to cope with ours. The gallant General talked of the French Navy as if it were equal with our own. Look at the finances of France; year after year there was a deficiency; the Government was involved in debt; its embarrassments were continually increasing; and the Minister did not dare to state to the Chambers the real condition of the finances. Look at the national credit of the two countries. Could any one contrast them without seeing that the condition of England was superior to that of France? We had no reason whatever to feel any sort of alarm at the state of the French Navy; and no one could pay a visit to any of the French ports without seeing the inferiority of their Navy, and the impossibility of its competing with ours.
SIR H. DOUGLAS: Has the hon. Member read the Prince de Joinville's pamphlet.
DR. BOWRING: I have, and it did not alter my opinion.
MR. W. WILLIAMSobserved, that the jealousies and ill-will between France and England were produced by such observations as those upon the inferiority of the French Navy compared with ours.
SIR C. NAPIERconcurred in every word that had fallen from the gallant Officer (Sir H. Douglas), not only as to the necessity of having a reserve, but of a proper alarm as to what was going on at the opposite side of the Channel; and perfectly disagreed with every word that had fallen from the hon. Member for Coventry.
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In making a few observations, he would be as short as possible. He could not help expressing the gratification he felt at the very able manner in which the Secretary of the Admiralty had brought forward the Navy Estimates, and the bold and manly way in which he stated that the system in the dockyards was carried on by jobbing. He wished, however, that the Admiralty, in making all their alterations, had authorized the hon. Gentleman to go one step farther, and that they had acted like the Board of Customs, which with the consent of the First Lord of the Treasury he supposed—for the head of the board could not be believed to do it of his own accord—had issued instructions prohibiting all clerks and employés from making use of private interest for their advancement, and warning them that so far from raising it would depress them in their situations. He wished the Admiralty had said the same to every officer in the fleet, from the admiral to the lieutenant, and told them to look to themselves for promotion, and not to the interest of Lord This or Lord That. He had read over their plan with a great deal of attention, and wished it every suceess; but the only certain mode of putting an end to jobbing would be by disfranchising the whole of the dockyards. That would put an end to it, but nothing else would. If all men were honest, the proposed plan would be very good. When the builder chose three men for promotion, it was very possible he might choose two Tories and one Whig, or two Whigs and one Tory; and if the Government of the day were Whig or Tory, it required no ghost to tell them which of the three would be chosen by the Admiralty. He could have wished that the superintendent of a dockyard were allowed to choose his men, as an admiral was allowed to select the sailors for his ship, and then he would look for the best men, and it would soon go to head-quarters who had abused his trust. If that could not be done, he hoped they would at least give the superintendent the power of discharging a man immediately he neglected his duty. It was said the Government did not get a fair day's work for a fair day's wages under the present system, and there were rumours abroad also that our ships were not built in a proper manner. The confusion and conflicting orders and authorities which now prevailed were such as to give him no hope, unless the whole of the present system were reviewed. As to the building of our vessels,

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his gallant Friend who brought forward the Estimates put a shot between wind and water into the Admiralty when he said they did not know their own mind; and he would certainly divide the House, unless he got an assurance that a different system would be carried out. The late Secretary of the Admiralty informed them that there were only seven iron steamers used as vessels of war. He expected the gallant Officer who was more particularly charged with the gunnery department of the Navy, would give him his opinion whether those vessels which had been built were fit for war or not. But in reference to the statement of the late Secretary, on looking to a paper with which he had been furnished by the Admiralty, he found a long list of vessels which had been built since 1843. The gallant Officer then read a list of a number of vessels, specifying the number and nature of the guns they carried. The hon. Gentleman said that nine vessels were built because it was difficult to obtain wood; but that was no reason why so many of them should be built. Those which had been built were found very difficult to manage on account of the way in which their compasses were affected, and the recruit brig had to be taken into dock after every cruise in order to rectify them. He left it to the House to judge whether it was right or proper for any Admiralty, he did not care who they were, to begin to build thirty-three iron vessels before they had fully tested their capabilities. He wished above all things to know if there was any intention on the part of the Board of Admiralty to revise the articles of war, and make them a little more humane than they were at present? Now was the time to change them, when public opinion was strong on the subject. He did not at all approve of their order the other day, however, which would act in a most improper manner, and create one mode of punishment ashore, and another in blue water, giving the men to believe there was one discipline in England, and another abroad. He wished also to impress on them the propriety of increasing the ship-carpenters, and giving them better pay. It was so small at present that it was extremely difficult to get good carpenters to enter the men-of-war. He repeated again his wish that his gallant Friend opposite would answer whether the vessel built of iron were fit for men-of-war; and whether when a shot was fired into them, it went through, as your finger would through a
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sheet of brown paper. In the experiments that had been made, the shot was only fired from a jingal. What would be the effect if it came from a 32-pounder? If his hon. Friend could not tell, he (Sir C. Napier) could. The vessel would go to the bottom like a stone.
CAPTAIN BERKELEYsaid, that with respect to the calibre of the guns to be used in the Navy, the present Board of Admiralty had carried out the views of the late board, in respect to the use of as few varying calibres as possible; and he hoped the amount of different calibres would remain as it was fixed at present. The gallant Officer had asked his opinion as to the capabilities of iron vessels to be used as ships of war; but he would rather that the gallant Officer would call for the opinions of the board than that of an individual. He was sorry this point had been touched upon, because as the present Secretary to the Admiralty said, that the present board did not build, and did not intend to build, any more iron steamers, except for such purposes as packets, he had hoped that that would have been a sufficient indication of the opinion of the board on the subject. It had been said, that the firing at the Ruby by the Excellent was an absurd experiment; but he wished that experiment had been before made so many iron vessels had been ordered, for he was bound to say that the experiment proved that iron vessels were not fit for the purposes of war. In this he was borne out by the gallant Officer who made the experiment; and also by what happened in the River Plate, where the admiral, who commanded, thought the circumstance so extraordinary, that he sent home the shot which passed through the Lizard, making on one side a hole as in a sheet of brown paper, and a star on the other, so that it was hardly possible to stop it by a plug. By the trial on the Ruby, it appeared that the greater the thickness of the iron, the greater the injury. Iron butts were made of great thickness, and shots fired at them, and these shots had greater effect on them than shots fired at rotten wood would have on that material.
MR. CORRYdefended the appointments made by the late Board of Admiralty in the dockyards, all the higher stations having been conferred on supporters of the present Government. He would next refer to the charge made by the hon. and gallant Admiral (Sir C. Napier) against the late Board of Admiralty, with refer-

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ence to the building of iron ships of war. The question might be divided into two parts: the one a question of strength, and the other a question of durability. As to the question of strength, he referred to a letter of Lieutenant Hoskens, who stated, that if the Great Britain steam vessel had been built of wood, she would have broken up—if not before—on the 20th of November, when the tide rose to an extent much higher than usual. The next question was as to the durability of iron vessels. On this point he had some evidence which he should read to the House. The first iron steam vessel was built in 1821. She was built and commanded by the present Sir Charles Napier, and had been for a considerable time in use. In 1833, the Dublin Company commenced the building of iron vessels, and from their experience of them they had no idea of returning to wooden vessels; and the great majority of the steam vessels engaged in trade in that country are now built of iron. When the hon. and gallant Admiral (Sir Charles Napier) taunted them with not making experiments before building more vessels, he begged to inform him that they did make experiments at Woolwich, which were attended by a late Lord of the Admiralty, the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Sir George Cockburn), who had as many hard knocks as many of them, and it was his opinion that iron vessels were decidedly fitted for war. Now, as to the result of the experiment with regard to the Ruby, he would ask what must necessarily be the consequences when they took a ship of that kind, put her in water, and fired away at her; and having done that, was it fair then to say that an iron vessel was not fitted for war because she did not resist the shots which were directed against her? He referred to what had occurred with respect to the Swiftsure 74-gun ship, to show that a wooden vessel was equally vulnerable as an iron vessel; and could it for that reason be said that wood was an unfit material for the building of ships? The damage done to the Lizard had been adverted to; but a vessel of such light scantling must necessarily suffer, and it would appear that in similar circumstances wooden vessels had likewise suffered. He thought the late Board of Admiralty was quite justified in what they had done, and he conceived that all the experiments tended to prove that iron was a fit material for vessels built for the purposes of war; and even if they were not
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fitted for the purposes of war, they were fitted for the conveyance of troops.
CAPTAIN HARRISsaid, as he had reason to suppose that the expense of giving additional pay to the petty officers of the Navy would not amount to more than 30,000 l. or 40,000 l., he hoped that some proposal of this nature would be laid upon the Table as a supplementary estimate. He thought it of great importance that a measure of this kind should be brought forward pari passu with the measures relating to secondary punishments, and the reduction of corporal punishments. He would also urge upon the Board of Admiralty the importance of adopting means to give a more practical education to the naval cadets. He would suggest that one of the old jackass frigates should be fitted out, and placed under the command of a smart officer with a crew of seventy or eighty able seamen, on board which 100 cadets should serve, and learn to steer, heave the lead, and do their duty aloft, together with the rigging, fitting, and handling a ship, and that as many mates as convenient should serve in rotation to learn the pilotage of the Channel, and to steer a ship by the marks and the chart.
CAPTAIN PECHELLsaid, that on Friday night many observations were made, to which answers were expected; but the Lords of the Admiralty had not given any. He would be glad to do away with the jobbing in the dockyards; but as he wished to hear the right hon. Baronet (the Member for Dorchester), he trusted that an opportunity for discussion would be given on a future occasion.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, that after the observations of the gallant Admiral (Sir C. Napier), and of the Secretary of the Admiralty, he was afraid that any observations of his own would be of little weight, since his experience at the Admiralty was now of ancient date, and the practice then was different from what it was now. It was admitted on all hands that the patronage of the Board was now in the hands of the Secretary; but when he was at the Admiralty it was in the First Lord, with the advice of the Board, and the Secretary had only a somewhat peculiar branch of the Admiralty—the clerical patronage in the appointment of chaplains. He was quite astonished to hear, that in making the appointments, it was an ordinary question to ask what were the political opinions of the master shipwrights or of the foreman of the works. He was himself in

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office only for the two years consequent upon the great election after the Reform Act; and, before he left office, he had seen the bad effects of giving the right of representation to Woolwich, and then to Chatham, then to Devonport, and then by attaching to the Pembroke district of boroughs the dockyard of Pembroke, and also by giving the full franchise to Portsmouth, which before was a close corporation; and though he had taken no notice of the political opinions of the officers in the yard, nor inquired how they exercised their elective franchise, yet he must say that, if this question were constantly put by different Boards of Admiralty, it would be a great impediment to the efficiency of the yard. The possession of the elective franchise was an important question as connected with the public service. The expenditure in the yards was enormous, and nothing could be a greater evil than the prevalence of this system. The spirit of the suggestions laid upon the Table by the present Secretary of the Admiralty did him the highest honour; and they were directed to the remedy of this evil. He was inclined to agree with the gallant Member for Marylebone as to the propriety of making promotions in the naval services and in the dockyards by merit; and he had been advised by Admiral Sir Thomas Hardy, and by Admiral Dundas, to proceed on the principle of concentrating the responsibility, and thus increasing the efficiency. He had sought to give the right of rating and disrating in the master of the yard as every captain had in a ship, which concentrated all the power and responsibility, and ensured efficiency; but still he had great doubt whether there was not much force in what the gallant Member for Marylebone said; and it would be a grave question whether they must not at last—though he was opposed to disqualification—with a view to the efficiency of the public service, come to the same regulation with respect to the dockyards as existed in regard to other situations under the Government. The officers and men employed in the coast guard were connected with the collection of the revenue, and were disqualified from voting. The analogy between them and persons employed in the dockyards was very close; and though disqualification was invidious, it would be a question whether the elective franchise should not be confined to the inhabitants of the towns; it was a grave question to be decided on public grounds. Still, the
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plan of the Secretary of the Admiralty was honest and fair, and he was willing to give it a trial.
MR. WARDexpressed his deep gratification at the manner in which the right hon. Baronet had been pleased to speak of the plan of the Admiralty. He trusted that when the officers saw the general feeling on the subject, and, more, saw that an honest plan was put before them, they would endeavour to carry it fairly into effect, especially when they were made aware that if this plan should fail, the alternative must be disfranchisement. Should the scheme fail, he trusted the House would not hesitate to concur in applying the more extensive remedy to which the right hon. Baronet had alluded.
SIR J. GRAHAMdoubted the policy of appointing four measurers to each dockyard. If the measurement were effectual, there would be required a much greater number of officers for this purpose.
MR. WARDsaid, it was expected the services of these officers, who would have assistants, would be effectual for the purposes for which they were designed.
MR. F. T. BARINGwould assure his hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty that he must have his eyes and ears open, and, after all, unless he had an opportunity of checking the officers themselves, he would only remove the impression, now unfavourable to the Admiralty, to them. He thought the disfranchisement of the dockyards objectionable, and would recommend, as the most effectual remedy for the evils complained of, that the Treasury should listen very unwillingly to all applications for influencing the patronage of dockyards.
Several Votes were agreed to.
House resumed. Resolutions to be reported.
House adjourned at half-past One o'clock.