Commons Sitting of 8 July 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—2° Canal Companies; London Bridge Approaches Fund; Constabulary Force (Ire-
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land), &c.; Qualification of Peers (Scotland); Trust Monies Investment.
Reported.—Masters in Chancery Affidavit Office; Bankruptcy and Insolvency; Joint Stock Companies (No. 2); Post Office; Naturalisation of Aliens.
3° and passed:—Stock in Trade Exemption; Drainage of Lands (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir W. Molesworth, from Southwark, for Inquiry into the Customs Regulations (Port of London).—By Sir R. Peel, from Leicester, and Mr. Vernon Smith, from Northampton, for Alteration of the Proposed Plan of Education.—By Mr. P. Miles, from Richard Allez, and the Rev. Daniel Dobrée, of the Island of Guernsey, for Redress.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Old-ham, for Alteration of the Law respecting the Sale of Beer—By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Brewers and others in and near the Metropolis, for Postponement of the Thames Conservancy Bill.

HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid: Sir, I am anxious, before the House proceeds with the business before it, to make a statement with respect to a most important Bill now standing for consideration—I allude to the Health of Towns Bill. The. House is aware that the Bill was introduced at an early period of the Session, although the state of public business would not allow it to be proceeded with until an advanced period of the Session. The Bill, as the House is aware, was read a second time by a very large majority, and also by a large majority was ordered to be committed. The House has also agreed to the first clauses in the Bill, involving the appointment of the Commission and other important matters, and has approved thereby of the principle of the Bill. The first clauses were carried by a very large majority; but lately, after proceeding through the more important clauses, considerable debate has arisen upon each clause, so that on Monday only two clauses were agreed to; and on Tuesday, I think, only one clause was agreed to. There are several other clauses in the Bill to which it is intended to move Amendments, and which would require discussion. Now, under those circumstances, when I consider the progress of this Bill, and the discussion which the remaining clauses are likely to lead to, while I think that those clauses should be adopted, yet I do not think that at this period of the Session, and of the present Parliament, we are likely to obtain the result we aim at, without a very considerable period elapsing before getting through Committee. I do not wish to argue the question as to what it is owing that such considerable delay occurs in agreeing to each separate clause of the Bill. Some Bills are of such an important nature—such as the Reform Act, the Poor Law Act, the Municipal Corporation Act

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—that they necessarily would require considerable attention; and it was necessary that a long time should be taken up in the discussion of the various provisions of them in Committee. Another cause may be, that unnecessary opposition has been made for the purpose of delay. Another argument may be, that the Bill in itself is defective in its framing. All I say is, that I do not intend to argue which is the case with respect to this Bill. I have my own convictions upon the subject. The noble Lord opposite may have his opinions also on the subject; and all I have to request of him is, that he will be good enough to allow me to retain my opinion on the subject. The obvious result of this state of things is, that I cannot now hope to proceed with the Bill with any success in the present Session of Parliament. I may say, likewise, that there is another more special reason which applies to the present circumstances. We are not only now entered into the month of July, and are advancing towards the middle of the month, but we are also arrived at a time when the Parliament is approaching its termination. I believe the House has now sat for a longer number of years than any Parliament since the year 1826. No Parliament since that year has sat so long as the present one; and as we approach the termination of the sixth year of its existence, there is naturally a general expectation of dissolution; and with that expectation there is of course the usual excitement attendant upon the canvass of hon. Members. This is a reason with the Government, when they find there is not a clear probability of the immediate success of the Bill, not to proceed with it. But, at the same time, I would not allow any single word to drop from me which would at all signify that my confidence in the principle of the Bill as adopted by the majority of the House is at all shaken. The question is one which, it is admitted on all hands, excites the greatest interest in the country; and I think no person will deny that it is a subject for which legislation is required, and therefore it is not to be supposed that, in dropping this Bill at the present time, the present or any future Government should dispose of the subject altogether. On the contrary, at as early a period as possible in the next Session we shall bring forward a measure to make such amendments in the existing law as we think may be required. With this statement, Sir, of the reasons why the
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Government do not wish to go on with the Bill, and not wishing to excite any irritating discussion on the subject, I shall therefore move that the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Health of Towns Bill be read, for the purpose of being discharged.
MR. STUARTwas happy to find that the noble Lord had abandoned his Bill—not because he thought the subject of the Bill ought to be trifled with; on the contrary, he thought it was one of enormous importance—but because the subject was so extensive in its nature, that no legislation could be attempted now under circumstances which would enable the House to give its consideration to every part of the measure. Being honestly anxious to give his humble assistance to make the Bill as perfect as possible, he had bestowed hours of painful attention on it; and if the noble Lord would pardon him for saying what had occurred to him on the examination of the Bill, it was possible that the remarks he had to offer might contain useful hints for a future occasion. The noble Lord was not present in Committee when the House was discussing the 21st Clause. He had ventured, when the House had entered upon the discussion of this clause, to call the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests to the number of clauses in the Bill, and the peculiar scheme of legislation on which the Bill was framed. This Bill was framed on a scheme entirely faulty, and one he hoped which was not to be attempted again. The 21st Clause incorporated in the Bill another Act of Parliament only recently passed—an Act difficult of construction, and difficult of incorporation in the Bill. After a limited examination of the Bill, he would just show to the House the result of the system of incorporating such Acts of Parliament in the Bill. The Act was called the Towns Commissioners' Clauses Consolidation Act, and it contained 116 sections. In this Clauses Consolidation Act, other Acts were incorporated, and of course they also became incorporated in the Health of Towns Bill. This Act, then, of fifty-eight clauses, incorporated no less than 790 clauses, Now only let the House for a moment conceive what it was about when proceeding to legislate in this way. The hon. Member for Brighton (Captain Pechell), with great good sense, remarked the other evening, that before we could go on with the Health of Towns Bill, we must first understand

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the Towns Commissioners' Clauses Consolidation Act. Suppose, then, hon. Members set themselves to understand that Act. For his own part, he had at first thought only a few clauses of the Act were to be incorporated in the Bill. But a question was put to the Attorney General, who, in reply, said, that all the clauses of the Towns Commissioners' Consolidation Act, including the interpretation clauses, were to be included in the Bill. That Act incorporated another Act of Parliament, passed in referrence to railway companies. In the 104 sections of the Towns Commissioners' Clauses Consolidation Act were incorporated the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act, passed in 1845, which had reference to the recovery of damages from railway companies. When we recollected that the Railway Consolidation Act and the Acts relating to damages had together 165 sections, and that these Acts were so interwoven with other general Acts and their interpretation Acts, we should see that the whole scheme, if carried out, presented the prospect of such a mass of litigation as the House could have no present conception of. All this would be attended with expense, to be levied on towns and places in England within the scope of the Act. He would call attention to another peculiarity of this mode of legislation. There was hardly a town in England which had not a local Act with reference to its sanatory regulations. He held in his hand an Act of 357 clauses, regulating the affairs of the town of Liverpool. By that Act of Parliament a board of health was established for the borough. The Health of Towns Bill was, if only on this account, wisely abandoned for the present, for it not only affected this Act of Liverpool, but it affected every other local Act in England. He mentioned the Liverpool Act, because he had been engaged hour after hour in endeavouring to understand it, as he was concerned in an expensive litigation on the construction of a clause in that Act. After a long and expensive litigation, commencing in Liverpool—carried three times into the Vice Chancellor's Court, and about ten days ago heard in the Chancery Court, the Lord Chancellor felt so much difficulty in the case, that, to the great injury of a proprietor of a house who wished to repair but could not, the Lord Chancellor gave permission to try by action at the next assizes, and thereby to determine the meaning of three words only in the ninety-fourth sec-
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tion. He implored the noble Lord to well consider what he was about to do before, by the Health of Towns Bill, he gave occasion for litigation of this kind. As a lawyer he never felt his profession so degraded as when he found that, from words improperly introduced into a Bill, private rights were invaded, and questions were raised, by the ingenuity of lawyers, who wore stimulated to put a different construction on words which ought never to have become a matter of doubt. He only ventured to refer to the Liverpool case, because it was the last case of the sort which it had been his lot to be connected with. Would the noble Lord have the kindness to consider what Acts of Parliament passed for regulating the affairs of towns were already in existence? He would not go through the various clauses of the abandoned Bill; but he would say, if the House had gone on, they would have found themselves in such a maze of difficulty, on account of the nature of the provisions introduced into the Bill, that it would have been impossible to have clearly seen their way through legislation on such a theme. He would therefore beg the noble Lord to pause and to attend to the remarks of the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley), who said, and said with truth, that he wished, in the framing of Acts of Parliament, laymen were more employed, and lawyers less. He considered it was indispensably necessary to simplify the construction of Acts of Parliament. If we would refrain from holding out baits to the litigious part of the community, we must trust more to the good sense and discretion of the courts, magistrates, and individuals, and we must legislate in larger and more general terms. How many families had their affairs thrown into confusion by needless delay; how much time was taken up in construing words in such Acts, for instance, as the Consolidation or Joint Stock Companies Acts? He regretted the failure of the present Bill, for it was in able hands; and because that was the case, he must confess he did not at first bestow that attention on the details which otherwise he should have done. He had, however, since looked closer into the Bill, and he was satisfied it was impossible to proceed further safely with legislation. The noble Lord formerly at the head of the Woods and Forests spoke good sense, when he advised Government to confine the Bill to its first nine clauses. He would ask the noble Lord to see how far this might be done. He felt he had a

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right to complain that a subject of so much importance had not been brought before the House in such a shape as to permit the House to come to a decision on it.
MR. AGLIONBYhad no right to complain of hon. Gentlemen's opposition to the Bill, nor did he mean to blame the noble Lord for withdrawing it, though this proceeding was a subject of regret to him, and would be a subject of general regret throughout the country. The noble Lord could do no otherwise, and there might this advantage result from the circumstance, that the hon. and learned Member for Newark, before next Parliament, might have an opportunity of bringing in another Bill which would obviate all the objections to the clauses which would have had to be discussed in Committee. He would not answer in detail the remarks of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Stuart); but he must own he was surprised to hear them come from an experienced lawyer, and with some of those remarks he certainly did not agree. He quite agreed with the hon. and learned Member in his observation of the necessity generally for simplifying Acts of Parliament; but he conceived if all but the first ten clauses were taken away from this Bill, such a proceeding would by no means tend to simplify it. In his opinion, the safest way to avoid disputes about the meaning of Acts of Parliament was for lawyers to continue to adopt the same form of words, and the settled construction placed on those words by courts of law. If laymen were to draw up Acts of Parliament, in his judgment the present difficulties would be increased tenfold. He concurred with the hon. and learned Member, that incorporations of other Acts of Parliament in Bills ought to be avoided in every case. He wished for a public Bill to be brought forward next Session. He wished to have such a Bill discussed not at the morning sitting, but at that period of the evening when it would be sure to have the attention of the House.
VISCOUNT MAHONsaid, that it seemed to him the noble Lord had exercised a sound discretion in withdrawing the Bill at this period of the Session and of Parliament. He had persevered with it to the utmost point where success was at all likely. But, when reintroducing the Bill, he hoped the noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) would introduce at the same time a Bill regulating interments in towns. He thought it would be hopeless to attempt to legislate on the
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one subject without taking the other along with it. He hoped the noble Lord would give his attentive consideration to the question during the recess.
SIR W. CLAYwas anxious to remove a misconception which existed on the subject of the exclusion of the metropolis from the Bill. It had been alleged that a species of bargain had been entered into between the Government and the metropolitan Members that the metropolis was to be excluded; but, as far as his knowledge went, the allegation was altogether founded on a mistake. He believed that the metropolitan Members were not only willing, but anxious, to see a scheme of sanitary reform carried into completion; but, as regarded the metropolis, his opinion was, and he believed a similar opinion was entertained by other metropolitan Members, that it was not expedient to attempt to include London in a general Bill, and for this reason, that to do so would be to increase the difficulties which surrounded the question, and to render the passing of any general Bill, during the present Session, hopeless. He trusted a measure would be introduced for the metropolis alone; and in framing its provisions he hoped the constitutional and Anglo-Saxon principle of local government would be as little interfered with as possible.
MR. HUDSONsaid, that in consequence of some statements having been made injurious to the sanitary state of the city of York, he had made some inquiries, and was desirous of disabusing the public mind on the subject. Some hon. Members seemed to imagine there were no boards of commissioners except in London. Now, in York, there were commissioners, consisting of forty members, elected by the ratepayers, who discharged the duty of paving and cleansing the city. The corporation had nothing whatever to do with the matter, but sometimes voluntarily assisted the commissioners in carrying out their views. It had been said that the health of York was worse than that of any other town. Now, the Report on the Health of Towns showed a very different result; for whilst the average longevity in York was 32 years, in Saddleworth the average was only 26; in Halifax 2G; in Bradford 20; in Sheffield 22; in Huddersfield 27; and in Leeds 23; and in Burlington, Duffield, Patrington, Beverley—all agricultural districts—the average was 28. He should also observe, that the longevity at York was greater than it was in any of the neighbouring agricultu-

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ral towns. He believed the hon. Member was connected with Whitechapel; now, he (Mr. Hudson) could show that York was more healthy than that, as well as many other districts of the metropolis. The mortality in Whitechapel was 3 7–10ths per cent,whilethatinYorkwas32–10ths. Many towns like York were sufficiently healthy, while many rural districts were far from being so, The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wakley) was much mistaken in supposing that there would be any danger in visiting York; and if any Member would take a trip there in the recess, he (Mr. Hudson) would do all in his power to make the sojourn agreeable. He was glad that this Bill would not be proceeded with; he had always entertained strong objections to a central commission; and he was confident that if the experiment were made, and full powers given, the local boards would prove adequate to carrying out sufficiently well all necessary sanitary regulations. It had from the first been apparent to him that the measure, as it had been committed, would never fulfil, had it been passed, the benevolent intentions of the noble Lord and the Government; and if it was again introduced next Session, he hoped it would be in such an altered form as to insure the approval of the House.
MR. MACKINNONrose, merely to State to the noble Lord that it would be very acceptable to the country if he would give an assurance that early next Session the would proceed with this Bill.
MR. WAKLEYhoped the noble Lord would reflect on the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Newark. It was clear that this Bill was not applicable to the object the Government had in view. The hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had recommended the noble Lord to bring in the present Bill again next year. He could not join in such a request; but he trusted the noble Lord would bring in a more comprehensive general measure, and bring within its operation the whole of the metropolis. He trusted, that on no account the city of London would be left out of this Bill, for there was much anxiety that this should be done. The drawer of the present Bill had drawn it up without any reference to parties who would be materially affected by it; the consequence was, that much greater opposition had sprung up against it than otherwise would have been the case. Before the noble Lord brought in another Bill, he advised him to institute a preliminary inquiry, and to con-
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sult the various paving, lighting, and watering boards, of which there were a great number in the metropolis, none of whom, he understood, had been consulted. If the noble Lord did this, he would carry the public with him, and pass such a comprehensive measure into a law. There were nine or ten separate boards for these purposes in one district only of one of the metropolitan boroughs; and he was sure no measure on the subject would be satisfactory to them if they were not previously consulted to a certain extent. When those interested had been consulted, a Bill might be framed in such a manner as to overcome the difficulties which now stood in the way of an effective Health of Towns Bill. He trusted that general as well as specific inquiry would be carried out in the first instance, and without delay. The noble Lord must be aware, from what had been stated by the hon. and learned Gentleman, that it would be desirable to try the effect of having laymen to draw up some measures for legislation, which experiment he had no doubt would be attended with success. The hon. and learned Member said, that he would leave a large discretionary power to the Judges in construing Acts of Parliament. He complained that they had too much power already in the interpretation of Acts of Parliament. They even sometimes set aside Acts of Parliament, and put extraordinary constructions on them, which when they were passed, were never dreamt of. The hon. and learned Gentleman had alluded to the difficulties which had grown out of the interpretation of one of the sections of a local Act relating to Liverpool, in a recent case which had been before the Vice Chancellor and the Lord Chancellor's Courts. It appeared that these learned Judges, after full consideration, could not tell what was meant by the words, "a house projecting;" the case was therefore to be sent to a jury to determine the question. In a matter of this kind they should so simplify the Bill as to render misinterpretation impossible, so that a child might understand it.
MR. HUMEthought there was something contradictory on the part of the hon. Member in recommending that they should have a comprehensive, and at the same time a simple measure. He was very sorry at the Bill being withdrawn; but this had arisen in consequence of the Government having exempted the city of London from its operation, on merely a manifestation of

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opposition on the part of that place. He hoped, that early next Session another measure would be introduced, and that they would proceed with it day by day. He trusted that the noble Lord who had charge of the subject would not consent to the measure being framed in such a way as to give the Judges larger discretionary power. He objected to the proposition laid down by the hon. and learned Gentleman. There was a very great difference between statute and judge-made law, and they had already too much of the latter. He hoped they would take care that the statute which would be passed on this subject would be so clear that the Judges could not put a different construction upon it from that put upon it by its framers.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that as he had been one of those who had taken a somewhat active part in opposing this Bill, he hoped he might be allowed to say a few words on the subject of that opposition. He had a great wish, and he believed the wish was common to all who had taken part in opposing the progress of the Bill—that a good measure should be introduced for promoting the sanitary improvement of towns. He could answer for himself that no man could be more anxious on the subject than he was; but neither he nor those who had acted with him could believe that the way to accomplish the object was by passing the Bill which had been submitted to the consideration of the House. At an early stage of the discussion, in fact, when going into Committee, he had foretold what had occurred. He foresaw then, and he warned the Government of it, that when the discussion reached a certain point, no further progress could be made. And now let the House and the country judge of who were the true friends of sanitary reform. The country ought well to understand that some of those who opposed the measure from the commencement, foresaw that when the clause came round which involved the consideration of 700 clauses embodied in other Bills, instead of the 58 clauses contained in the Health of Towns Bill, it was impossible that the measure could succeed. At an early period of the discussion the Government were advised to adopt the only course which was likely to prove practicable, and it was to make the application of the Bill voluntary on the part of towns; but this advice was scouted. Then came the proposal of the noble Lord the Member for Falkirk (Lord Lincoln), who very ably demonstrated that, from the withdrawal of
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one or two clauses, the Bill would prove inoperative in towns, and who recommended a certain course to the Government as likely to prove useful; but neither was that recommendation acceded to. In fact, the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests was like a man going into a bog—going by little and little towards the part where he was told by the noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) and others that he must inevitably sink; namely, that part which involved the discussion of 708 clauses, causing discussions which must have proved absolutely interminable, although a space of six months had been at the command of the House. That was the real juncture which occurred. It was his firm belief that had the Bill unfortunately passed, the country would have been thrown into con-fusion, and a degree of litigation would have sprung out of its impracticable enactments which would have proved most damaging to the cause of sanitary reform by disgusting the people with the very measure which was intended to promote and secure it. It was his sincere conviction from the beginning—and he stated then what he would state now—that he was one of those who did not approve of a Central Board of Commissioners. To that proposal he had early intimated his objection; and nothing had occurred calculated to induce him to change his mind. In fact, everything which had occurred in the history of the Bill, showed that a measure which had been announced in the Queen's Speech had not received that degree of consideration which he thought the country had a right to expect and to call for, in a matter so deeply affecting their social rights and interests. He joined heartily in the hope which had been expressed on all sides of the House that a measure better considered would be introduced; and if he might he allowed to offer a remark, with the view of obviating future difficulty, it would be that in his opinion the noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) had failed from attempting too much; he believed he would go safer, and reach his point more directly, were he to attempt less at a time. He believed that his Lordship was impelled onwards by his benevolent disposition; but in grasping at too much he had failed in devising the machinery necessary for the right working of so extensive a scheme. He might also say that he thought considerable assistance might be derived from the successful experiment which had been made in the case of the Enclosure Commission. That was

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a difficult subject to manage, owing to the conflicting interests which were involved. These difficulties, however, had been overcome, and the measure was now working so satisfactorily that he thought its machinery might be looked at with advantage by the Government. Where so many interests were involved as in matters relating to the health of towns, it might also be well to consider how far the initiative should not be left to the parties interested, instead of subjecting them to the operation of the compulsory principle. He would repeat his belief that those who had joined in opposing the measure, had acted from no hostile feeling to the principle of the Bill. At all events he could answer for himself, and would repeat the assurance he had already given, that the opposition he had offered to the measure originated in the impracticable nature of its provisions. In conclusion he would thank the noble Lord for having withdrawn the measure, and express his regret that it had not been brought forward in a manner which would have entitled it to the favourable consideration of the House.
VISCOUNT MORPETHhardly need assure the House that he had not become a party to the withdrawal of the Bill without the deepest regret on his own personal account, as well as on public grounds. He had felt that the postponing the consideration of the details of the measure to such a late period of the Session, must prove a very great drawback to its chance of success; however, while there was a prospect or chance of making this measure a law during this Session, he should have been induced to fight for it to the utmost; but after the experience of Monday, on which two clauses were agreed to, and of Tuesday, on which only one clause was adopted, he could not retain a hope that he could pass this measure through both Houses during the present Session; he therefore felt that he should not be justified in further pressing it. In the course of the discussion which had taken place, many objections had been stated to the measure; and he was not prepared to say that on a subject of such a complicated nature—one of a nature nearly, in fact, to justify the hon. Member for Warwickshire in calling it a social revolution—if it was, it was a revolution for social good—there might not be some well-founded objections. He could not agree that if he had confined the measure to the first seven clauses, which related to the preliminary inquiry,
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that he should have disarmed opposition to the measure. Directly, on the contrary, they would have been told that the object it had in view was only to add to the patronage of the Government; and if they had merely appointed officers for the purpose of inquiry, they might with some show of justice be open to the charge. He could not object to the spirit of the observations of the hon. and learned Member for Newark; and he felt grateful for some of the remarks which he had made. The hon. and learned Gentleman had laid great stress upon those clauses which proposed to incorporate consolidation Acts into this Bill. Although there might be grounds for some of the considerations urged by the hon. and learned Gentleman, yet he believed that it would be found, with very few limitations, that the incorporation of Acts of this nature into Bills did not lead to any practical inconvenience. Still it was a fair subject for consideration whether this mode of proceeding was the best mode of legislation; and he would not then stop to inquire whether the merely referring for shortness to particular model Acts so incorporated in a Bill, was better or not than specifically inserting every enactment in such consolidated Act at length in the Bill. With respect to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Lymington, he had no hesitation in saying that at an early period of the Session he should feel it to be his duty on the part of the Government to bring forward a similar measure to this; and he hoped that he should be enabled to do so at such a time and in such a manner as to obtain for it the fullest attention, so that it might pass into a law. In the mean time it would be his duty to give his fullest consideration to all the objections which had been raised, and to all the suggestions which had been made; and experience did not make him think that this would be a very easy task. An hon. Gentleman had said that the Government must include the metropolis, including the city of London, within the operation of the Bill. He certainly had no wish to exclude the city of London; but as some misapprehension had arisen as to what had passed on that subject, he wished to state that he had made a communication to the city, by which he had only intended to convey to them that the corporation, comprising as it already did the Commissioners for Sewers and for Paving, would be invested with the general powers contained in the Bill, as being an analo-

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gous body to the commissioners or corporations in other towns. They, however, had misconceived him, and had thought that he had intended to except the city altogether; and in consequence of this he had consented to postpone the portion of the Bill relating to the city until next year, as he did not wish that there should appear even the suspicion of bad faith. Certainly, the Government never would consent to except such an important part of the country as the metropolis from a Bill like this. On the other hand, he had been urged to include within its operation every rural district. He was also told that he must consult all the local boards and existing bodies, and he was then told that he might do all this in a Bill of ten clauses. He had also been told that he should take the advice of his noble predecessor in office, who had introduced a Bill on the subject which contained 300 clauses. His anxious hope had been not to embitter the progress of this Bill by his conduct; and he did not wish to accompany the withdrawal of it by any word or deed which could give offence. He trusted that he should be enabled to introduce an analogous measure to this under better auspices early next Session, and he certainly would not then say anything savouring of acrimony. He could not conclude without expressing his confidence, that, notwithstanding the complexity and difficulty of the matter, it was of such a nature that it must command the most serious attention, and shortly ensure its own success.
MR. NEWDEGATEwas most anxious for the introduction of a comprehensive system of sanatory reform, but would be no party to a social revolution. That was the real foundation of his opposition to the measure. He trusted the noble Lord would endeavour to obviate the objections which had been raised, and would introduce a law which should be in itself supreme, and not cast upon the discretionary power of any commission the onus of regulating the working of the measure. If the noble Lord would bear in mind the suggestions which had been made, he would no doubt be able to introduce a Bill which would not cause those feelings of irritation which had been created by the present measure.
SIR DE LACY EVANScould confirm the statement of his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets as to there having been no compact or agreement between the Government and the metropolitan Members about leaving the metropolis out
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of the operation of the Bill. He believed that a very strong feeling existed amongst his constituents in favour of a Health of Towns Bill; and they only objected to certain clauses of the present Bill, which had caused them great anxiety. They were far from being opposed to the principle of the Bill. He trusted the noble Lord would endeavour to conciliate the local government, at the same time that he established a Board which would see that the proper course was taken.
LORD G. BENTINCKsaid: It is not my intention to disturb on such an occasion the good humour of the House; for it is impossible to find fault with the noble Lord for having relieved me and my friends from the intolerable and harassing burden of attempting to throw out the Bill. But the noble Lord ought to have had the candour to state that we were exonerated from all blame for the time which has been occupied in discussing and resisting the measure. Just look at the case. According to the hon. and learned Member for Newark, the clause which we were discussing yesterday—the 21st Clause—involves the consideration of 790 other clauses, of which 472 belong to four Bills that have only passed this year. 216 of the clauses were incorporated in the Commissioners' Clauses Act, which did not receive the Royal Assent till the 21st of June; and yet they are referred to in the Health of Towns Bill, which in its amended shape appeared on the 24th of the same month; so that in three days after the Commissioners' Clauses Act received the Royal Assent, and before any Member of the House had an opportunity of considering the amendments which had been made on the Bill by the Lords, the entire measure was incorporated in the Bill which has this day been withdrawn. In fact, six Acts of Parliament are included, each involving an inconsistency. If that be not enough to puzzle a conjurer, I do not know what could; and although the discussion of the measure had been prolonged till August, the noble Lord would have had no right to complain of those whoso opposition had caused the prolongation. But not only was the House called upon to discuss a clause which involved six public Acts of Parliament, but we had to consolidate and take into consideration almost every private Act which had been passed, and which if estimated at 10,000 clauses, the estimate would be under the mark. But I wish to call the attention of the House and of the noble Lord to this

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fact, that whilst in this Bill, by the 32nd Clause, it is enacted that all the powers possessed by local commissioners shall be taken away from them, and that their powers shall be transferred to this Act, by the 39th Clause there is this extraordinary provision, that all the provisions of all existing Acts of Parliament are to remain in full force, unless they are inconsistent with the Bill, namely, the Health of Towns Bill. How is it possible that in a few days' time we should be able satisfactorily to discuss an Act constructed out of such a mass of confused materials? I trust, therefore, that those Members who opposed such a measure as this, will now be ex post facto exonerated from the charge of having made a factious opposition, and of having made any unreasonable demand, when they asked that they might not be hurried on, and not forced to sit from noon of one day till half-past two in the morning of the following one; and then at noon of that same day to come prepared for renewing the discussion of a measure of so extensive and complex a nature as would require the assistance of all the lawyers in the country to comprehend it in all its bearings. I cannot allow that, in asking the Government, as I did, and for which I was found fault with, not to hurry on such a measure, I was asking anything unreasonable; and I think I should not be doing justice to my friends or to myself if I had not said these few words in justification of the course we adopted in asking for the time necessary to the mature consideration of a measure which, if hastily adopted, we were convinced would not only lead to no practical good, but to the most interminable, the most vexatious, the most hostile litigation.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL, after what had fallen from the noble Lord, felt bound to observe, that in his original statement he had brought no charge against those opposed to the Bill; for all that he said was, that he would leave it to hon. Members to decide according to their own feelings whether the opposition to it had been vexatious or not, or whether the Bill itself was ineffective. Having said so much, he had hoped that the same forbearance would be exercised by hon. Members opposite, and that they would not proceed to argue the merits of the Health of Towns Bill after it had been withdrawn.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, that, as he had given notice of a clause to be inserted in the Health of Towns Bill, which would
40
prevent hospitals being built in particular locations without the consent of the Woods and Forests; and that Bill having been withdrawn, the only thing that remained for him to do was to give notice that, he should introduce a Bill to-morrow for the purpose of obtaining what the clause was intended to do. The object which he had in view was to prevent the building a fever hospital in so crowded a neighbourhood as Islington.
Order for the Committee discharged.

COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGES (IRELAND) BILL.
House in Committee on the Compensation for Damages (Ireland) Bill,
Clause 1—(Grand Jury may postpone traverses and payment),
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, that as this was a very important clause, which, in fact, was the object and principle of the Bill—and as, perhaps, in some cases the postponement of payment to persons entitled to damages under the Labour-rate Act might involve a hardship, he would take the opportunity of calling the attention of the Committee to the amount already chargeable by law upon Irish property, and which Ireland would he called upon to pay next year for works comparatively unproductive, so far at least as any immediate return towards the repayment of that charge during the same year. And he was anxious to make this statement, not only because it was desirable that the House should know the amount so chargeable on landed property in Ireland, but because if the observations he was making should reach grand juries and petty juries, and persons of all classes connected with property in Ireland, he hoped they would see the necessity of exercising the most rigid vigilance and economy—so far as was consistent with justice—in dealing with the claims of parties for compensation under the Labour-rate Act. Probably most hon. Members had seen an article which appeared in the Morning Chronicle two days ago on this subject. It was stated in that article, assuming the expenditure in feeding the people to proceed at its present rate for twelve months—that taking thirty unions, forming a considerable proportion of the whole of Ireland, the expenditure during the year would amount to no less a sum than 3,446,210 l., while the valuation of those thirty unions was only 2,163,710 l. He (Mr. G. A. Hamilton) hoped that state-

41
ment was overcharged; for he trusted it would not be necessary to continue the present enormous expenditure for any considerable period. But there was enough of truth in it to create very great alarm. A right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Northampton, some time ago had obtained a return on this subject, which he then held in his hand. By a reference to it, and to some other returns on the Table of the House, he had been enabled to make out a calculation, which he was afraid was only too correct. The return of the right hon. Gentleman divided the charges for unproductive works, since the beginning of the last sessions, into several classes, which he would very briefly enumerate:—

Principal.

Charge next year.

1. Advances to grand juries under 9th Vic ch. 2, and 9th and 10th Vic. ch. 78

£ 125,841

£ 14,482

2. Ditto, ditto, 1st Vic., ch. 21, 9th Vic., ch. 1, half loan, half grant

390,093

25,070

3. Public Works Labour Rate, 9th and 10th Vic., ch. 107, 5,000,000 l.; suppose one moiety remitted, and remainder converted into annuity at 12 l. per cent for ten years, as proposed

2,500,000

300,000

4. Relief Commissioners, 10th Vic., ch. 7, to be repaid out of the Poor Rates

900,000

900,000

£ 3,915,943

£ 1,239,552

The next item of expenditure to which he would advert was the poor rate under the Act recently passed. He was aware it was difficult at present to form any accurate calculation; but still, he thought, by looking at the charge for the poor in England, under a system nearly resembling that now established in Ireland, something like a proximate one might be arrived at. England, with a population of 15,906,741—call it sixteen millions—expended in the relief of the poor, in the year 1846, 5,039,703 l. Ireland, with a population of 8,175,126—call it eight millions—if you suppose the same expenditure in pro-
42
portion to the population, will have to expend 2,500,000 l. Possibly the expense of maintaining a pauper might be less in Ireland than in England; but still he was afraid a larger proportion of the population would have to be supported, and he feared the cost could not be taken at less than 2,500,000 l.; that added to the former items would make the charge for the distress, arising from the potato failure, and for the poor, 3,739,552 l. Then there was the grand-jury rate for roads, gaols, dispensaries, and other county matters. The grand-jury cess for 1846 amounted to 1,158,198 l.: deducting from it the charge for constabulary, now placed on the Consolidated Fund, it might be taken at 1,000,000 l., making the amount so far chargeable 4,739,552 l. for the year 1848. He had some hesitation in approaching the next item. He could not conceal the surprise with which he had read in one of the recent reports of the Board of Works, that the estimate formed of the amount, certified by the officers of that Board, for damage to land under the Labour-rate Act, was 1,500,000 l. He had a very high respect for the Members of the Board of Works; but how it was possible that such a sum as 1,500,000 l. could be estimated as the compensation for damage on an expenditure of 5,000,000 l., he was quite unable to conjecture. He hoped it was an estimate roughly formed, and drawn from some peculiarly unfavourable data; and that when grand juries and petty juries came to deal with the question of compensation, they would prove that it was a very erroneous calculation. But supposing it to be but one-half, or 750,000 l., the total amount chargeable upon land in Ireland next year, if the payment for compensation was not postponed, would be no less than 5,489,552 l. And in this calculation he had not taken into account local taxation in towns, turnpike tolls—both of which were in some places extremely heavy. Neither had he taken into account the charges for drainage and other productive works, with regard to which, although it was true that the money so expended would be profitable, yet the profit would not immediately accrue; and, therefore, the charge would be felt for the next year; and he must also remark that the charge was assumed to be equal over the whole country; but of course that was not the case, but, on the contrary, the charge would be heaviest where the district was poorest. He would now trespass upon the Committee for a few

43
minutes while he pointed out the comparison which existed between England and Ireland as regards the charges upon land and the means of meeting them; and first, with respect to the charges. The charges upon land in Ireland, as he had already stated, and not including turnpike tolls or local taxation, could not he estimated for the year 1848 at less than nearly 5,500,000 l. In England the poor rate for the year 1846, was 5,039,703 l.; the highway rate was about 1,150,000 l.; the charge for prisoners, &c, 680,000 l., amounting to 6,869,703 l. So that the taxation of land in Ireland would bear the proportion of five to six to the taxation of land in England in respect to the same objects. And now with respect to the comparative means of the two countries to meet this charge—-the area of cultivated land in Ireland is stated in the Report of the Poor Inquiry Commission to be 14,600,000 acres; that of England, 34,250,000 acres; the produce of Ireland, 36,000,000 l., reduced by the failure of the patato crop last year, to, at most, 20,000,000 l.; the produce of England, 150,000,000 l.; the valuation of Ireland, 13,204,234 l.; of England, 62,254,030 l. This was the estimate made before the property tax; the valuation now, as deducible from the income tax is, 85,802,725?. The agricultural labourers in Ireland are stated to be 1,131,715; in England, 1,055,983. Now, he (Mr. Hamilton) thought it quite obvious that if England, with 1,000,000 of agricultural labourers, with 34 millions of acres of cultivated land, with 150 millions in value of produce, and with a valuation of 85,000,000 l., feels the burden of 6,800,000 l.; Ireland, with 1,100,000 agricultural labourers, with an area of only 14,000,000 of acres, with a produce of 36,000,000 l., reduced by the late visitation to 20,000,000 l, and with a valuation of only 13,000,000 l., must break down under the pressure of 5,500,000 l., unless means be taken to increase the productive powers of the land, to add to the wealth of the country, and to establish a better proportion between capital and population. He was quite ready to admit that in the Improvement of Estates Bill, Her Majesty's Government had endeavoured to make provision for this purpose; but he hoped during the recess they would apply themselves to the consideration of other means by which the important defect connected with improving the resources of Ireland might be still further attained.
MR. LABOUCHEREcould not at the present moment enter into a consideration of the general financial condition of Ireland. If hon. Gentlemen were desirous of expressing their opinions upon the subject, they would probably have an opportunity of doing so at the reassembling of the House at Five o'clock. It was of the greatest importance that this Bill should pass immediately into a law; he therefore hoped the hon. Gentleman would allow the Committee to proceed. With respect to the statement to which the hon. Gentleman had alluded, he owned he was as much surprised as the hon. Gentleman himself could be to see such a sum as 1,500,000 l. put down as an estimate of the amount of damages to be claimed of the Board of Works for damages in Ireland. He had no doubt every care would be taken to look narrowly into the particulars of the estimated claims, and to prevent this question of compensation for damages being made subservient to private and particular interests. He knew that it was the opinion of the members of the Board of Works that the expense of compensation would be much less than they had themselves first estimated it to be. At the same time, it was impossible to deny that there would be a considerable sum to be expended under this Bill. With regard to the repayment of this expense, he wished not to throw the burden all at once on the counties of Ireland, and had therefore made provision for spreading it over a certain number of years.
MR. M. J. O'CONNELLhoped it would go forth that full and official accounts of all the claims made for compensation for damages would be laid before the public, so that it would be known who were the parties who made out reasonable claims, and who were the parties who had made out unjust and unreasonable claims. These proceedings would be before the eyes of the public; and which he considered to be a very efficient provision for checking any lavish expenditure of the public money.
Clause agreed to.
Other Clauses agreed to.
House resumed. Report to be received.

POLLING AT ELECTIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
House in Committee on the Polling at Elections (Ireland) Bill.
On Clause 2,
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, that the first

45
of the Amendments of which he had given notice was in reference to this clause; but he hoped the Government would agree to a different arrangement from either that contained in the Bill or his Amendments, in reference to the university which he had the honour to represent. The University of Dublin is at present subject to the same law as counties and boroughs with regard to elections. There may be polling for five days—the Bill as introduced by Government limited the polling to one day, with one day intervening between the day of nomination and polling. It was obvious, considering that the great proportion of the university constituency were resident in the country, many of them in England, that the effect of this provision would be to exclude a great number of the electors from exercising their franchise at all: the Amendments of which he (Mr. Hamilton) had given notice would have the effect of providing a two days' poll and two intervening days' notice. But since he had placed his Amendments on the Paper, he had received many representations from persons who complained that any restriction as to the time of polling would deprive them either of their franchise in their counties or in the University. The case of a university was certainly peculiar, from the nature of the franchise, and from the class of persons who possessed it; the electors were most of them scattered over the whole country, and had votes in other places also. The English Universities, for the same reason, were excluded from the clauses in the Reform Bill by which the polling was limited in England; and he would, therefore, on the whole, ask Her Majesty's Government to place the University of Dublin on the same footing.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that as it appeared to be the wish of the University to be placed on the same footing as the English Universities, he should not oppose the proposed exception.
The words "University of Dublin" struck out.
Clause 6—(Sums for damages to be raised as poor rate),
SIR R. FERGUSONsaid, the effect of requiring a separate applotment and warrant, he feared would be burdensome and vexatious; and he hoped the sums to be collected under this Bill would be included in the warrant issued under the Bill for amending the Labour-rate Act.
MR. MONAHANsaid, that the ques-
46
tion would remain open; provision could be made, if desirable, in the other Bill.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONwarned the right hon. Gentleman against multiplying warrants and collections. They might feel assured that the chance of collecting diminished in proportion to the number of warrants.
MR. VESEYinquired how the expense of procuring copies of the poor-law valuation and the rate-book was to be defrayed; there seemed no power of presenting for such expenses.
The SOLICITOR GENERALthought the collectors should have them made; the expense could not be considerable.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONreminded the hon. and learned Gentleman that the ratebooks and valuations were very voluminous; that the copies should be made accurately, and could not be done but at a considerable expense. He advised the hon. and learned Gentleman to consider the subject on the report. He would take the opportunity of stating that it was his intention to move that the words "or tithe" should be omitted; but as the Motion might involve a division, and as the state of the House at that moment did not admit of a division, he would postpone it till bringing up the report. The reason he objected to those words was, that they would extend the taxation for compensation to a class of persons and to property which was already grievously overburdened, and which, in no case heretofore, had been subjected to taxation for public works.
Other Clauses of the Bill agreed to.
House resumed. Bill to be reported.

IDOLATRY IN INDIA.
SIR R. H. INGLISwished to put a question, interesting alike to England and India, to the President of the India Board as to the continuance of a payment on the part of the Government in India in support of the Hindoo Temple of Juggernaut. He perceived there was some difficulty about annulling the payment; but it appeared to him to be desirable that at all events all connexion between the Government of India and the maintenance of that idol should cease. It had been assumed, that when the country had been taken possession of, a pledge had been given that that payment should be continued. But he believed that that was an erroneous impression, and that no such pledge had

47
ever been given. He had reason to think that that was also the opinion of Her Majesty's Government. An equivalent might, he believed, be given for the payment that had hitherto been made; and such an equivalent might be found in the restoration of a portion of those lands which had formerly belonged to idol temples, and which were at present in the hands of the Government. He wished to ask his right hon. Friend, what was the present state of the arrangements upon the subject? He could not help taking that opportunity of expressing his acknowledgments to his right hon. Friend for having, during his former administration, taken the first step towards the abolition of the connexion between the British Government and the maintenance of idolatry in India.
SIR J. C. HOBHOUSEhad to state, in answer, that since the last report was presented on this important and delicate subject, on the 5th of August, 1843—a report which every hon. Member would do well to consider—the Court of Directors had received a very voluminous body of papers, dated 7th January, 1846, which arrived in England in the March following. One despatch was of twelve pages, and in the whole there were 1,386 folio pages, containing reports of the proceedings of all the Governments of India, Bengal, Agra, Bombay, and Madras, as to the efforts of the authorities to disconnect idol worship from the State. Before any further step were taken, he thought it would be expedient for the hon. Baronet and the House to allow these papers, or parts of them, to be laid upon the Table. He did not recommend that the whole mass should be presented; but he would endeavour to make a proper selection from them. He apprehended that the hon. Baronet was correct in what he had advanced regarding a supposed pledge. He (Sir J. C. Hob-house) thought that the notion of a pledge was mistaken. No doubt his hon. Friend opposite was a great deal better acquainted with the details of the subject than he was, and he would perhaps confirm the opinion he had given. Doubts at least were now entertained that the decision upon the question come to in the years 1838 and 1839, was not founded upon a just consideration of the case. His noble Friend, the then Governor General, was not at the presidency at the time. Perhaps it would be better to postpone farther discussion until the papers were presented; and in the mean time he (Sir J. C. Hob-
48
house) would be happy to receive any suggestions, or to obey any orders on the subject the House might think fit to give him.

THE LATE COLLIERY ACCIDENT NEAR WIGAN.
MR. FORSTERbegged to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he had received any information from the magistrates or coroner of the district tending to confirm the charges made against the owners of the Kirkless Colliery, near Wigan, in respect to the accident at that colliery, on Tuesday, the 29th ult.? And, in putting the question, he begged to state that for the charges which had been brought against the owners of the colliery, there was not the slighest ground.
SIR GEORGE GREY, in reply, stated that he had not as yet received any reply from the coroner of the district, to whom, as well as to the magistrates, he had written; neither had he received any communication from the magistrates tending to confirm the charges made against the owners of the colliery. He had, in consequence of the statement which had been made by the hon. Member for Finsbury respecting the accident, addressed a communication to the magistrates and coroner of the district, offering any assistance which could be given by the Home Office to forward the inquiry; and he had directed the magistrates to inquire rigidly into the means adopted for saving the lives of the persons who had been left in the pit, and to investigate the substance of the charges made against the proprietors of the colliery. He had just received a letter, dated the 6th of July, from the magistrates, in which they stated, that in consequence of the letter from the Home Office, they had directed their clerk to call a meeting of the magistrates, and that they had heard the statements of several parties upon the subjects alluded to in the communication. The result of the inquiry was, that they had come to an unanimous opinion as to cause of the accident. As that question, however, was still under the consideration of the coroner's inquest, he (Sir G. Grey) did not think it would be right for him to state the nature of their opinion until the verdict of the coroner's jury should have been ascertained. As to the question of the subsequent conduct of the owners of the colliery in preventing persons from descending into the pit to rescue those who might

49
have been left alive in it, the magistrates were convinced that no man left in the pit after the explosion could have been alive, and that every exertion that could have been made was made to get them out. That letter was signed by five magistrates. As he had before stated, he had received no letter from the coroner, whose investigation was still proceeding; but he would observe, that the gentleman who had been alluded to by the hon. Member for Fins-bury had had every opportunity during the inquest of examining and cross-examining any witnesses he chose.
MR. DUNCOMBEexpressed his astonishment at the hon. Member for Berwick denying the grounds for the statement which he had made. He had informed Gentlemen who was his authority. The man himself had been in London, and might have been examined in the lobby of the House by the hon. Member, had he chosen to satisfy himself upon the subject. And now he (Mr. Duncombe) was prepared to support the statement he had made. If the masters could have contradicted those statements, they had had opportunities of going before the coroner, whose inquiry had been adjourned from Thursday last to that very day. But he would state what one of the owners, Mr. Robert Lankester, had himself stated. Mr. Robert Lankester said the men were bricked up and could not escape.

DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, the vote which I am about to put into your hands is merely a vote for a further advance on the security of the poor rates of the sum of 300,000 l., for the purpose of affording relief to destitute persons in Ireland during the present summer; but as I am about, in the course of the evening, to propose other votes to the Committee, and as, in the course of the next two or three days, I hope to propose the last vote which it will be necessary for me to submit to the House for the purposes of relief in Ireland, I should not perform my duty to this House, or meet its just expectations, if I did not avail myself of this opportunity of making a general statement, of what the progress of the relief afforded has been; what its amount is, so far as we have gone, and what we anticipate regarding it for the future. I think it is due, not only to
50
this House, but to the country, which has contributed so largely to the support of the distressed population of Ireland, that it should know how the money has been expended; and I think it is equally desirable that the people of Ireland, in the new agitation—of which we have some symptoms—for repeal, should be aware of the substantial benefits which during the last eighteen months they have derived from the union with this country. I shall not indulge in any further prefatory observations, as I am unwilling to trespass longer upon the patience of the House than is absolutely necessary. I will, therefore, at once, as plainly and as succinctly as I can, review the operations that have been carried on for the relief of the distress in Ireland. Those operations, as is known to every Gentleman in this House, began in the spring of 1846, when works were undertaken for the employment and relief of the destitute, depôts were established in various parts of Ireland, and relief committees were formed, to whom donations were made in aid of their subscriptions. But the main feature of the relief of last season, was that afforded by employment on what were called relief works; and the first four Acts of the last Session of Parliament were for the purpose, one way or other, of employing the people on works of different descriptions. The number employed on those works varied at different times. In June, the number employed was about 20,000. In July, it was a little upwards of 90,000. The relief works were never entirely discontinued from the time they were once opened; but after the resumption of sixty-seven works in the month of September, the whole number of persons employed was only 12,600. The relief, speaking in general terms, was considered to be closed in the month of August. I will now state the amount of relief afforded up to that time. The amount expended on public works was 476,000 l. But to this there is to be added the sums advanced on grand jury presentments to the amount of 130,000 l. The total loss on the purchase and sale of grain was 50,000 l. The amount given in aid of relief committees by the Government was 70,000 l. The salaries of officers employed in administering the relief was 8,000 l.; thus making the whole sum expended in relief in Ireland up to last harvest, 734,000 l. Of this sum there was, in loans, 368,000 l.; and in grants, 366,000 l. During the last

51
weeks of the Session of 1846, a change was made in. the system under which relief was to be given. The system of public works was continued under the Act, chapter 107, of last Session; but Her Majesty's present Government, believing that the mode pursued of charging this country, in the first instance, with one-half of the amount expended, had led to exorbitant demands, proposed an alteration, which was adopted by Parliament, that the whole of the expenses for the relief works should be charged on the baronies in Ireland. The Treasury Minute of August the 31st, explanatory of the altered system, and which has been printed in the first blue book laid on the Table of the House this Session, was issued and circulated. Amended rules were framed for the guidance of the relief committees. But very soon after Parliament rose, the general failure of the potato crop became known; and the consequence was, that a state of despondency and alarm extended itself from one end of Ireland to the other, and led every class of persons in that country to throw themselves on the Government for aid, to a degree that was not a little embarrassing to the Treasury. Even while the harvest was yet un-gathered, and the peasant's winter store of turf uncut, applications were made for commencing additional public works, and presentments were passed at the extraordinary sessions called throughout the distressed districts, for an amount far exceeding, in many cases, the whole annual rental of the baronies; persons were placed on the relief lists who ought not to nave been there, to such an extent, that we had statements from Mayo that persons were on the works who did not require any relief at all, while the destitute were lying on the roadsides without the means of subsistence, within a mile of the place where the works were going on. All this showed the absence of a vigilant superintendence on the part of the resident gentry and ratepayers with reference to those works. Many circumstances contributed to this state of things. I believe a feeling of humanity led to a great deal of this evil. The better classes were anxious to afford subsistence to the people, and the easiest mode of doing so was by procuring them employment on the public works. Intimidation also had, no doubt, much to do with the matter, in leading to improper persons being placed on the lists; and there was certainly among the people no indis-
52
position to avail themselves of the advantages thus held out. The consequence of all this misconduct was to throw an immense number of people on the public works; and it was accordingly found, that the average number in October, was 114,000; in November, 285,000; in December, 440,000; and in January, 570,000. We vainly endeavoured to check the expenditure; and when hon. Gentlemen complain of the large staff employed in Ireland on these works, I would beg the House to understand that the whole administration of the local concerns of the country was thrown on the officers employed under the Board of Works. They had to survey and report upon the works to be executed, to say who were the proper objects for relief, to check the relief lists, to go through the whole of the duties imposed on the boards of guardians in this country; then to measure and lay out the work, to check the amount performed, to pay this enormous number of men week by week, and all this to be done in many cases with little or no assistance; and in some cases in spite of great opposition, and at no little risk. This was a most arduous undertaking, and required a very strong staff of officers and overseers: and when we saw those abuses going on, we naturally endeavoured to do everything in our power to prevent them, by multiplying checks upon the expenditure. At the end of January it was announced to Parliament that Government intended to put an end to this system of public works. The first result was, an immediate increase of the numbers employed. In spite of the most active exertions, instead of any diminution of expense, there was an increased pressure. The most stringent instructions were sent from the Treasury to the Board of Works to check in every possible way the numbers; but, nevertheless, a great increase took place. The average number of persons receiving employment in the month of February, increased to 708,000; and in the month of March, to 734,000; and I wish hon. Gentlemen would consider how enormous were the numbers for whom superintendence was required, before they complain of the number of persons employed for this purpose. The maximum expense on account of the staff, was 22,000 l. per week; but by the last ac-counts which I have received, the expense of the staff has been reduced to 5,000 l. a week; and it is ordered to be nearly altogether discontinued after the 10th of

53
July. At last the Government, seeing that the time suited for agricultural purposes was rapidly passing away, and that no exertions on the spot effected any material reduction of numbers, ordered that after the 20th of March, 20 per cent of the persons employed on the public works should be struck off the lists. Very little difficulty, I am happy to say, was met with in carrying this order into effect. The necessary labour was returned to agricultural employment, and a large breadth of land was cultivated for spring and green crops. Still farther reductions took place in April, May and Juno. In the first week in April, the total number of persons employed on the public works was 525,000. In the first week in May, the number was 419,000; in the first week in June, 101,000; and in the week ending the 26th of June, the number was reduced to 28,000. We have fixed the limit of expenditure at the rate of 100,000 l. a month for June and July, and part of August; and we intend that the whole shall be discontinued as soon as the public works are in a state in which they can be safely and properly left. I wish to state at once for the information of hon. Members from Ireland, who are anxious to know to what extent these works are to be completed, what we intend doing with respect to them. At the end of the last season of relief, an appeal was made to Her Majesty's Government that they were bound, in good faith, to complete all the works which they had commenced. An announcement had been made from the Treasury, stating, in the most distinct manner, that the works would not be completed by Government if unfinished when the distress ceased; and that they were not to be continued a moment longer than was absolutely necessary to afford the required relief to the people. Gentlemen in Ireland stated, however, that this had not been made known in Ireland; and as the distress still continued, we acceded to their request and completed the works, in order to avoid any imputation of not fulfilling expectations in which there was any shadow of reason. We took, however, effectual measures for preventing the recurrence of such a claim. A most distinct warning was given by us, so long ago as the month of October last, that the works would not be continued one week longer than was necessary, and in no case beyond harvest. The letter from Mr. Trevelyan to the Board of Works, on this subject, stated as follows:—
"The Chancellor of the Exchequer desires me
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to call your particular attention to the concluding portion of the Treasury Minute. What is required is to make it known from the first, to everybody concerned, in a manner which will admit of no mistake hereafter, that works under this Act are sanctioned, not for the sake of the works themselves, but for the sake of the relief afforded by them; that they will he stopped as soon as relief is no longer necessary; and that the operation of the Act will, under any circumstances, terminate on the 15th of August, 1847; and that if the works are continued after that date, it must be, not under the provisions of the 9th and 10th of Victoria, c. 107, but under the terms of some other Act of Parliament. We wish it to be plainly understood that the advances under the 9th and 10th of Victoria, c. 107, are merely intended to answer the temporary end of maintaining the destitute poor during the period the Act will remain in operation; and that if Parliament should determine that the Irish proprietors shall support the poor after the 15th of August, 1847, by payments out of the current produce of the poor rate, instead of by loan from the Government, the transfer from one system to the other may take place without our being liable to any demands, like those which have lately been made upon us, to finish what we had begun, on pain of being considered guilty of a breach of faith."
Everything was done to make known to the people of Ireland the decision conveyed in that letter. It was distinctly told to the proprietors of Ireland, that if they wished to complete the works, they might do so under the old system of county presentment, and that with regard to drainages works, if they wished to carry them on, they could apply under the provisions of the Land Improvement Act of this Session. The whole amount which has been expended from the 15th of August last, and which will be required, according to the estimate, up to the termination of the relief system this season on public works in Ireland, is 4,900,000 l. So much, therefore, for the system of relief on public works. I will now come to the other kinds of relief given. During the year 1846, twenty-one large depôts for corn were established in different parts of Ireland where they were most required, and there were also small depôts, of a few sacks of meal, opened at police and coastguard stations. The amount of corn purchased for these depôts in 1846 was 98,000 quarters. This year we established thirty-four large depots principally along the western coast, from Dunfanaghy, in the most northern part of the county of Donegal, to Skibbereen, in the south-west of the county of Cork; but, profiting by the experience of the former season, instead of re-establishing the small depôts, the distribution of the food in detail was confided to the relief com-

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mittees in each district. For these depôts the Government purchased 300,000 quarters of grain at a cost of upwards of 600,000 l. Towards the repayment of this sum, there has been received 215,000 l., from the sale of grain, up to the end of May. What the ultimate loss may be on the sales of grain, it is impossible to say; but probably it may be about 200.000 l. It is right to state that the whole of this amount has been purchased in the home market, and we have not had a single complaint from any person in this country as to the mode in which the purchases of grain have been carried on. One great difficulty being the want of means of grinding corn in Ireland, the Admiralty mills at Dept-ford, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Malta, besides two private mills near London, which were hired, have been kept constantly employed in grinding the corn which was bought, and nearly the whole mill power in Ireland has been left for the private importers of grain into that country. We also took care not to interfere with the private trade in Ireland; and in the Treasury Minute of the 31st of August, to which I before alluded, it was stated that
—"their Lordships desire that it may be fully understood that even at those places at which Government depots will be established for the sale of food, the depôts will not be opened while food can be obtained by the people from private traders at reasonable prices; and that even when the depôts are opened, the meal will, if possible, be sold at such prices as will allow of the private trader selling at the same price with a reasonable profit."
Having stated the intentions of the Government in their orders relating to the management of the depôts, I will read an extract of a letter received not long ago from Sir R. Routh, which will show that those orders have been fully and beneficially carried out. He says—
"The commissariat establishments have, during this season, been confined to the western coast, where, as pioneers of trade, they might lead the way to the encouragement of commercial enterprise, and to the creation of a system by which the country might meet a new calamity, by the exercise of their own resources, and the exertion of their own industry. On many points on the western coast, this intention has been admirably supported. The trade has imported largely; and when they have had extensive supplies, we have generally suspended our sales."
The commissariat establishments were confined to the western coast, and, with one exception, no complaint has been made of the interference with private trading. A complaint was brought forward a few
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nights ago by one of the hon. Members for Birmingham, on the part, if I understood rightly, of parties who had imported grain, that they had been undersold by Government; but, in my belief, the true cause of their complaint is, that these parties had purchased grain at a higher price than could now be obtained, a consequence of the natural fall of prices in the market. The intention of the Government, as expressed in the instructions issued from the Treasury throughout, was to sell according to the market price of the day; and it is not unlikely, therefore, that the price at the Government depôts would be lower than that at which, after this fall of price, the dealer could sell with a profit. In addition to the public depots established by Government, there were, in the eastern part of Ireland, fourteen depôts, managed by the Commissariat officers on behalf of the British Relief Association, and of the Relief Committee of the Society of Friends, to which the bulk of the American charitable contributions was consigned. It was apprehended, early in the year, that, as these bodies were acting quite independently of Government, considerable inconvenience might arise; and as it was exceedingly desirable that all the relief operations should be conducted in a uniform manner, it was mutually agreed that the Government should take charge of these depôts, on account of the parties, and sell the meal, or make free grants, as might be decided by them. The charitable supplies sent from the United States, were to a very considerable extent. I do not know the exact quantity; but some idea may be formed of it when I state that the freight alone upon it was 30,000 l., which the Government has paid. The third mode of relief, and that which became the foundation of the present system, under which relief is now generally administered throughout Ireland, was the establishment of relief committees. Some of these committees were established early in 1846. The relief committees had two distinct duties to perform. One of these was forming lists for the employment of persons on the public works—a duty which, as already observed, I am sorry to say they discharged in many parts of Ireland in a very improper manner; and the other was raising subscriptions, providing food in various ways, and taking charge of the aged and infirm—and that duty has been in general most efficiently fulfilled. In the early part of 1846, there were in the whole of Ireland 648

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relief committees, of which 484 received grants from Government in aid of subscriptions. They expended in a great measure their own money, which circumstance made them more careful in seeing that it was laid out with the greatest possible advantage and economy. They received last year 101,000 l., in subscriptions, and 70,000 l. in donations from the Government; and these funds were, I believe, on the whole, very usefully applied. In the early part of this year the number of relief committees had increased to 1,097, and of these 879 received grants from the Government. The entire amount of subscriptions was 199,000 l., and the donations in aid of the subscriptions amounted to 191,000 l. more, making a total of 390,000 l. expended by the relief committees in the course of this year. These committees pursued in the main the same system as those of the preceding year, introducing however very generally the establishment of soup kitchens, which led to the foundation of the present system, and the distribution of cooked food, in which shape the Irish people are now receiving relief. The great defect in the former system of relief committees was, that they were only voluntary, and that in many places, especially in the most distressed parts of Ireland, they could not be established, as it was impossible to find in such localities persons who would subscribe the necessary funds. This led to the passing of the Act of the 10th Victoria, chap. 7, which empowered the Lord Lieutenant to form relief committees in every electoral district throughout Ireland, and authorized the levy of rates for the purposes of relief. That Act was passed in the spring, and is in operation over a great part of Ireland at this moment. There are 2,049 electoral divisions; in 1,386 electoral divisions relief committees have been formed, which have received aid by advances of money upon the security of the rates; 48 have received aid by loans and also by grants; and 45 have raised subscriptions themselves for relieving their poor, and have received likewise Government grants in aid. There are, therefore, 1,479 electoral divisions now under the operation of the Act, and the other 570, principally in the north of Ireland, have as yet received neither loans nor grants; they have in many cases relieved their poor out of their own means. I am happy to say that the effects of this system have been most satisfactory. From many parts of Ireland, especially from the western
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districts, which had been the most distressed, I have had communications, bearing testimony to the improved appearance of the people, stating that the improvement in the aspect and bodily health of the population was such as to astonish those who had seen the condition of the people in the earlier part of the year. I have in particular the valuable testimony of Colonel Jones, chairman of the Board of Works, who has, in several letters, described the condition of various places he had visited. In the first letter, dated at Bantry Bay, June 26, Colonel Jones describes what he had seen at Skibbereen. He says—
"At Skibbereen I was greatly surprised with the appearance of the town and people; the latter looking in very good condition, very few miserable or famished objects to be seen; the former had signs of bustle, well-stocked shops, and an air of business. There is no want of food there at present. The fish market was well supplied, and whilst I was in the town several boats arrived with mackerel of a very fine sort, and which were sold at a moderate price."
His next letter is from Valentia, to the northward, dated June 28:—
"Judging by the appearance of the people, they are much improved in health; and such was admitted to me by every person I spoke to upon the subject. Fever is diminishing very fast, and has assumed a much milder form; deaths are very much less frequent."
This morning we have heard from him when at Galway, his letter bearing date July 1. He says—
"Certainly, to judge by the countenances of the people, a stranger would not suppose that the population had been suffering from want of food. I was glad to observe yesterday, in Galway market, the countrywomen had each their basket with something for sale, and a good deal of poultry. There were from twenty to thirty carts loaded with last year's oats for sale."
On a former occasion I read to the House a letter from Count Strzelecki, a gentleman employed by the British Association, and I will quote that letter again; it is dated from Westport, and he says that—
"The great recommendation of the present system, independently of its comparative merits, is, that besides being more systematic, and capable of contracting and extending its issues from fortnight to fortnight, and thus of adjusting and adapting itself to circumstances, it is more effective; for, since it came into operation, the afflicting and heart-rending crowds of destitutes have disappeared, and Westport, the receptacle of misery, assumes daily a more cheering aspect."
These are reports from different places along the western coast; and Sir John Burgoyne, the chairman of the Relief

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Board, who has accounts also from various other parts of the country, reports as follows, on June 28:—
"The accounts are generally that the people are getting perceptibly more healthy, that fever is decreasing in most parts, and the mortality in a still greater degree. The precautionary measures adopted under the Fever Act, cleansing, whitewashing, and removing nuisances, seem to have been attended with very beneficial effects. They have been effected at a very small expense, and have been greatly promoted by the exertions of our officers."
I am happy to state further, that from the weekly reports of the constabulary officers, it appears that the number of deaths which can in any way be caused by distress is daily diminishing. In the week ending the 29th of June, only four deaths are reported to have taken place in the whole of Ireland which could be attributed to destitution, while thirteen deaths from starvation were reported to have taken place in the county of Mayo alone, in the week ending the 28th of February. It is equally satisfactory to find that there has been a decrease of crime. I will only specify those crimes which might be supposed to have been prompted by want of food; and from the returns for May and June it appeared that burglaries had decreased from 242 in May to 142 in June; highway robberies, from 29 to 20; other robberies, from 115 to 72; cattle-stealing, from 1,446 to 858; plundering provisions, from 173 to 57; levying contributions, from 49 to 20. Crime, therefore, has diminished more than one-half in one month. The decrease of the expenditure is equally striking. The expenses of every kind for the four weeks ending the 20th of March amounted to 1,020,592 l., while for the four weeks ending the 12th of June they were 539,671 l., showing a diminution of no less than 480,921 l. in the comparison between the two periods when both systems were in full operation. To illustrate this farther, I will take the case of two baronies in the county of Clare. The persons employed on public works by the relief committees in these baronies at one time were 11,696; and, allowing the usual average of four persons to be supported by the earnings of each of the persons employed on the works, this gave relief to 46,784 persons. In those two baronies the whole number of persons returned by the relief committees as receiving rations under the superintendence of the Government officers is 11,046, being actually less
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than the number employed upon the public works. I am far from saying that abuses do not exist in parts of Ireland, in the present system; and, indeed, I mentioned on a former occasion, that in one district the relief committees had sent in a list of persons to be relieved exceeding by 2,000 the whole population of the district. Various checks have been established against this and other abuses which are attempted. First, the personal appearance of all parties requiring relief is insisted upon, exceptions only being made in favour of the sick. I am afraid that this exception is open to abuse; for I have heard that in parts of the country it has led to what was one of the main evils of the old system of relief in this country, "relief in aid of wages." The main check, however, is the distribution of relief in the shape of cooked food; and I hope that gentlemen who superintend the distribution of food in Ireland will steadily adhere to the rule of giving it in that form. This change has been one of the best steps that could have been taken; and I assure the House that the Government are firmly resolved to persist in it. I will read a report from one union:—
"The people invariably refuse dressed food at first, but after a few days give it a decided preference. Some hostility was manifested in Enniscrorothy to the porridge on the first day; but such is their desire to procure the cooked food now, that, when the supply falls short, they prefer waiting an hour or two for a fresh boiling to taking raw rations. I feel satisfied that health, comfort, and economy are best promoted by the substitution of cooked for raw food under present circumstances."
If hon. Gentlemen will refer to the Appendix to the Third Report of the Relief Commissioners, they will find that great abuses took place when uncooked food was distributed. The following passages are extracts from reports of Inspecting Officers on this subject:—
"When the rations were issued in an uncooked state, even the most destitute in many instances disposed of them for tea, tobacco, and even spirits; and those who were disposed to cook the Indian meal utterly failed, not being aware of its requiring to be well steeped previously. Instances have been reported to me of men receiving meal for their families, selling it immediately, and getting drunk upon the proceeds, leaving their children to starve; and last week,in—,a man received 5 lb. of Indian meal; he devoured part of it raw on the road to his home, and made away with the remainder, as he arrived without any for four famishing children. Not being seen for two or three days the police broke into the house, and found the man with two of the children dead, and the remaining two at the point of death."

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Such were the abuses which resulted from the distribution of uncooked food; and I believe that one of the best measures which has been adopted was the distribution of cooked food. In many parts of Ireland, I am sorry to say, some resistance was made, but the relief officers have received positive instructions to distribute only cooked food or steeped meal; and that if raw food is given, in opposition to those instructions, no further advances will be made to the unions where that abuse is permitted; and I am very anxious to impress upon Irish Gentlemen the importance of enforcing this rule in their respective neighbourhoods. The check upon the relief committees and those who distributed the relief is, that part of the payment is charged on rates to be immediately levied. On a former occasion I stated that there were some unions in which persons not entitled to relief had been struck off the lists; and I have received a letter from Sir John Burgoyne, dated the 28th of June, in which he says—
"I have this day received a report which pleased me very much, being of an electoral division in Gort, county of Galway, where the farmer ratepayers have denounced several persons on the lists as not entitled to relief, and caused some fifty or sixty to be struck off."
I do not mean to say that I am aware of any sum having been actually received in repayment of the advances made by Government for the purpose of this relief; but steps have been taken in several unions for striking and collecting rates; and the effect of this has operated most beneficially in checking the expenditure. On the whole, considering the magnitude of the operations the Government has had to undertake, the enormous number of persons requiring relief, and the difficulty of obtaining adequate local assistance, the administration of relief by the distribution of food has been most beneficial; I repeat that I do not mean to say that abuses have not prevailed, and that the people are not liable to be demoralised by being taught to depend upon the Government for their maintenance; but the system of relief by works was open to all these objections, whilst the present system is infinitely better in many respects than the employment on relief works. Beyond the good results which have attended this system, there is another measure to which I must refer—the establishment of fever hospitals. The orders on certificates of the Board of Health up to the 18th of June were for 207 hospitals, 7
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dispensaries, 13,126 patients, 575 nurses, and 280 ward-maids. The Committee must not, however, infer from these numbers, that they are an absolute increase in the number of sick; for the patients who would in other years have been in the ordinary hospitals have this year been transferred to those under the Fever Act; so that part of this number is only a transfer from other places, and not an addition. We have to a small amount given aid to workhouses, where funds were immediately wanted for the support of the inmates. Whilst on this part of the subject I may mention, that in consequence of their neglect of their duty, the Commissioners have been obliged to suspend two boards of guardians. [Mr. CALLAGHAN: Where?] At Castlebar and Ballinrobe. A sum of 18,000 l. has been given in aid to workhouses for food, and 60,000 l. has been advanced to unions for the erection of fever wards. Many of the workhouses were unable, from want of means, to accommodate the full number of persons which they were calculated to hold, and in these cases bedding and clothing have been supplied from the public stores, and as a larger quantity was sent over than was required for this purpose, some bedding and clothing has also been distributed to relief committees. The Government has also been at great pains to encourage the fisheries of Ireland; and I hope the impulse thus given to that branch of industry will be attended with the effects anticipated from it. Having thus stated the extent to which relief has been carried under the operation of the Act of this Session, I must express my satisfaction at finding that the expense has fallen below the amount I originally estimated. At one period I conceived it would amount to about 3,000,000 l.; but it will be no more than 2,200,000 l. Last year it was determined that the Government system of relief should terminate with the harvest; this year the same period is proposed; and directions have been given to close it, throughout Ireland, not upon any particular day, but according to the circumstances of the respective districts, to depend partly upon the gathering in of the harvest and the potato crop. When those crops have been gathered, there will be an end to the system of public relief, cither by food or employment; and it is believed that both will be closed before the end of August, after which those who require relief must look to their

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respective unions. Relief must be afforded from the rates; but we must, I think, and for reasons which I will shortly mention, afford as much aid as we can by advances of money for the purpose of giving facilities for the employment of labour. There will thus have been three distinct phases of relief: first, by employment on public works; secondly, by the distribution of food; and, lastly, by aid for the employment of labour. The system of public works was based upon the experience of all former examples of assistance afforded to the people of Ireland in periods of distress, and is, I believe, the best that could have been adopted to a limited extent; but it was not calculated to bear the enormous pressure of last autumn and winter. No machinery of Government officers could prevent the general prevalence of abuses; and the system fairly broke down. We then proposed the present system of relief by food. It was at this period that my noble Friend the Member for Lynn proposed his scheme for affording extensive employment by loans to the railroad companies in Ireland. No doubt employment in any way was desirable; but I do not consider that the proposition of my noble Friend was adequate to meet the evils which, at the time it was made, afflicted the country. Those who could have derived benefit from the utmost practicable extension of that scheme, would have been a small part of those who absolutely would have been starved to death, but for the assistance which we rendered to them. I believe that relief by giving food to the people was absolutely indispensable. The Poor Law had not been long established in Ireland, and out-door relief had not been established at all. They lad no practice, nor any machinery by which adequate relief could have been afforded to such as could not be supported by employment on railroads: it was indispensable, therefore, for the Government to interfere as it did, and to establish the machinery for bringing food within reach of the people. The people of Ireland are now in a different situation; they have had experience of the relief which has been afforded to them on a large scale, and have had time to form a judgment of what system it is best for them to organize, and also what are the best resources to which they should look for permanent support. They have now the experience of a year and a half of the administration of relief in different ways. Machinery for the purpose is established in the different electoral divi-
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sions of the country; an Act has been passed authorizing the appointment of relieving officers, and giving relief out of the workhouse. The time is therefore come when the people of Ireland must look for the relief of destitution to the rates to be raised on the spot. I do not mean to say that this will not be a heavy charge upon them; but it is one which they must bear, as the people in this country do, in supporting their own poor. With a view to enable them to meet their own immediate wants, it has been provided that the repayment of the advances of the public money should not press upon them in the course of the ensuing autumn. We have directed that in appropriating the rates for the expenses of the Relief Commission during the present summer, the current expenditure under the ordinary Poor Law should always be the primary charge on the rates; and, in like manner, we have directed that the expense for maintaining the poor shall be defrayed before any repayment is claimed out of the rates to be collected in the autumn. It is well known that rates are more easily collected when the harvest is gathered in, and the produce of the farmer is brought to market; and therefore this demand upon him will be more easily met. Partly for this reason, and partly also because we found that the Board of Works could not complete all the certificates in time, we have postponed making any claim for repayment of the advances made for public works under the Act (9 and 10 Victoria, c. 107) of the end of last Session, till the spring assizes of 1848. The repayment, therefore, of the first instalment due on account of advances for the public works of the last season, will not be made until after the spring assizes; the rates, therefore, during the coming autumn, will be altogether available for the relief of the people until that period. The repayment, therefore, is so arranged as not to press heavily upon them when the Poor Relief Bill comes first into full operation. They will have nothing to provide in the way of repayment in the course of the autumn but the second instalment for the works of last Session, whether granted under the Board of Works or under grand jury presentment. The amount of this instalment is but small: under grand jury presentments it is 14,500 l., and under the Act of last Session, cap. 1, 12,500 l., making a total of only 27,000 l. This is the total amount of repayment to be made by

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the people of Ireland in the interval between the summer and spring assizes. Nevertheless, although the pressure upon the people of Ireland for repaying any portion of the expense which has been incurred for the relief of the destitute during the last eighteen months, will be very trifling—during the next autumn and winter, there will be great demands upon the rates for maintaining persons out of employment; and they will stand in need of all the aid towards finding employment which we can legitimately give them. I am afraid that, under any circumstances, there will be a considerable number of persons for whom no employment can be found in the ordinary avocations of agriculture. Both Sir John Burgoyne and Colonel Jones have expressed apprehensions on this head; and the former regrets the loss of the Waste Lands Bill, from thinking that it would have afforded employment for labour in some of the most destitute districts. With these views, we propose to take power to make further advances for the purpose of finding employment for able-bodied persons. The works at present in progress in Ireland, aided by the public funds, are as follows: First, the Shannon navigation, which has been in operation for some years. Secondly, works for the improvement of navigation and drainage connected therewith, for which a vote has been taken in further execution of the Act which was passed last Session; and I shall propose in the next Committee of Supply a further grant of 5,500 l. towards the improvement of the River Hinde, in one of the most distressed counties in Ireland—the county of Roscommon. Thirdly, the promotion of the sea fisheries in Ireland, by the repair and construction of fishery piers, for which a sum of 50,000 l. was voted last year; and for which in the present Session I have taken an additional sum of 40,000 l. Fourthly, the drainage and improvement of landed estates by the proprietors themselves, for which, as the Committee is aware, a sum of 1,500,000 l. has been voted. And, fifthly, those railroads for aiding in the construction of which, a sum of 620,000 l. has been already voted. There remains the drainage executed by the Board of Works, in deepening and straightening the course of rivers which afford the outfalls for main drainage in Ireland. It is obvious that these works are of the greatest importance, as preliminary to the drainage of each estate which is to be effected under the Land Im-
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provement Act. The money which has hitherto been expended upon those works, has been chiefly obtained from private sources: the Board of Works issued debentures, upon the security of which many of the principal people in Ireland, including the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, have advanced considerable sums: the whole amount borrowed from the Government is only 36,000 l., while the sums lent by private individuals amount to no less than 127,000 l. In the present circumstances of Ireland, however, there is considerable difficulty in obtaining money from private sources; and I propose, therefore, to vote further sums of money to be added to the loan fund of the Board of Works in Ireland, to be advanced by them for works of public utility in Ireland, but mainly for drainage of this description. I find that the Public Works Loan Commissioners in England, can spare the sum of 120,000 l., which I propose to transfer from their account to that of the Board of Works in Ireland, in addition to the 60,000 l. which is appropriated every year to the latter body; and I shall also propose to issue to them from the Consolidated Fund a further sum of 250,000 l., making altogether a sum of 430,000 l. to be at their disposal between March last and the 1st of April 1848. I am very sorry to say, that I anticipate a less expenditure in the course of the next autumn and winter, out of the 1,500,000 l., for the improvement of landed estates than I had hoped for. The Board of Works do not expect that the expenditure within that time will exceed 400,000 l. There has been some difficulty as to the return of 6½ per cent in the improvement of the land by the money to be laid out upon it: it would be unjust to the remainder-man if the improved value of the land was not equal to the charge fixed upon it which he will have to pay; this improvement, however, cannot in all cases be expected to accrue as soon as the works are completed. Gentlemen are aware that in drainage, for instance, the full benefit to be derived from the work will be attained in different soils at different periods from the completion of the drains. In order, therefore, to remove difficulties, we have issued a Treasury Minute declaring that we shall be quite satisfied if an improved value to the extent of 6½ per cent on the money laid out is to be expected from the laud, when the full benefit of the improvement shall arise. No one can be more sensible than I am,

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that it is most desirable that money should be expended in Ireland in improving the productive power of that country; but so many difficulties seem to arise in doing this through the operation of the Land Improvement Act in the course of this year, when the necessity for employing the able-bodied persons is greatest, that I am not sorry to have devoted a certain sum to loans to railroad companies, by which considerable employment will be given, and the ultimate return of the money to the public is secured. These, then, are the modes in which we propose to expend money for the employment of the people in Ireland up to April next. Beyond this, I believe, that the interference of the Government would do more harm than good, by tending to increase the disposition of the people to depend upon relief from Government, and not to avail themselves of those means of subsistence which are in their own power. To give an instance how helpless the people are, and yet with how small an exertion the charge upon rates may be relieved, I will quote from a letter from Sir John Burgoyne of the 30th of June, an account of what happened at Arklow within fifty miles of Dublin. He says—
"The herring fishing has commenced on this eastern coast favourably. I had just induced the Relief Association of the Society of Friends to advance 50 l. for releasing upwards of 200 nets, the fishermen of Arklow had pawned! Those very nets brought in fish the next morning that sold for 30 l. The men had been previously on the relief lists with their families, receiving gratuitous rations, and in idleness."
Such, Sir, has been the course pursued for the relief of distress in Ireland, and such, so far as we can foresee, are the measures for the next few months. I am far from saying that mistakes have not been made; but in reviewing the conduct of the Government and its officers, I must beg hon. Gentlemen to remember the enormous difficulties: the pressure upon us from all parts of Ireland; the little assistance we have received; and that if our measures were not prompt, the lives of thousands might be sacrificed. Looking back upon all this, I confess I am astonished at the success which, upon the whole, has attended our measures. Early in the Session many Gentlemen coming over from Ireland imputed much blame to the Government for the course which they were pursuing, and prophesied that the system of relief then proposed would be a failure; but those who blamed suggested no better alternative, and those who prophe-
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sied failure have turned out, as events have shown, false prophets. We have now the satisfaction of feeling that, both in relieving distress and diminishing the burden upon the public, the measures of the Government have been successful. I cannot resist reading the opinion of Sir John Burgoyne on this subject in a letter received from him so lately as June 30th; and the opinion of no one can be entitled to more weight than his. He says—
"I consider our temporary relief measure the grandest attempt ever made to grapple with famine over a whole country, as the recent calamity may be described in Ireland. In spite of every difficulty, it has arrested it, except in limited spots, where opposition or apathy could not be overcome. I think that the Government and Parliament deserve great credit for not flinching from the proceeding; but it must be confessed to be one hors de regle, and that we should withdraw from it as early as possible, as demoralising and attended with a great amount of unproductive expenditure. I have always been aware of these evils, and have endeavoured to prevent our mode of administering relief from increasing them; but they are inseparable from the measure; and I assert that measure to have been the only one that could have checked a generally spread mortality from actual starvation; and that is a full answer to the cavillers against it."
I cannot, Sir, pass from this part of the subject, without expressing on the part of Her Majesty's Government the gratitude which we feel for the forbearing and generous support which we have received from men of all political parties during this most critical period, when famine and pestilence were so generally prevalent in Ireland. They felt how overwhelming the difficulties were, and, as I believe the people of this country always will do in real danger, they unanimously concurred in the measures best calculated to overcome them. It would, also, Sir, be most unjust not to pay their well-deserved tribute of praise to those officers who have been employed under the Government in carrying on these measures, from Mr. Trevelyan and the gentlemen in the Treasury under him, to the officers and clerks employed in the furthest parts of Ireland. Without the indefatigable exertions of Mr. Trevelyan, I really do not know how our operations could have been carried on from day to day; and the utmost exertions have been made by Sir John Burgoyne and the gentlemen employed in the Relief Commission; by Sir Randolph Routh and the officers of the Commissariat; by Colonel Jones, and every member of the Board of Works; and by the persons in their respective establishments. To the officers and gen-

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tlemen employed in the different parts of Ireland, the greatest praise is due, for their exertions under most difficult circumstances, and amidst fever and disease, to which, alas! several of them have fallen victims. It is indeed difficult to picture the various duties which were imposed upon these officers, as upon them, in fact, fell nearly the whole administration of the local concerns of the country; and the whole of what is managed in England by magistrates, boards of guardians, overseers, and relieving officers, independently of the charge of enormous public works; and the superintendence of such a body of men as was never before in any country employed at the public expense. It is true, Sir, that money has been largely spent; but we have at least the satisfaction of thinking that this expenditure has, under the blessing of Providence, been the means of saving the lives of thousands. With regard to the future, it is impossible not to contemplate what may come upon us in the autumn with some anxiety; and if again the potato crop should fail, it may be again necessary to extend aid to the people of Ireland; but so far as the present appearance of the crops in that country goes,—both those of grain and the green crops—I believe it is very promising. [Lord G. BENTINCK: Of the potato crops?] I referred to the grain crops; nor do I think it possible to express any decided opinion at present as to the potato crop. I believe the quantity planted in Ireland to be from a third to a fourth of the usual quantity; and there is no doubt that symptoms of disease have appeared in various parts of the country. There have, however, been recent accounts in this country of the disease having been checked where it appeared some time ago. I will not, therefore, venture to express a confident opinion on this subject, either one way or the other; but with reference to the grain and green crops, there seems to be every prospect of an abundant harvest. Land has been extensively sown in Ireland; and on this subject, I will read a report from one of the inspecting officers, Captain Fishbourne, applicable to great part of the north of Ireland. He says—
"I have just returned from a, tour through Louth, Tyrone, Donegal, Fermanagh, divan, and Meath; and you will be glad to learn that the crops throughout were looking most luxuriant, and some were very forward. I ought, perhaps, to except the more mountainous parts of Donegal near the sea, especially in the Rosses. The country, under its present circumstances, can never
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feed its population; and, even in the best years, many would starve but for the quantity of fish on their coast and in their rivers. There is much room for improvement, and some has been, and is being, undertaken with profit. I saw some, which had been taken in by Sir Edmund Hayes last year, bearing crops which will nearly pay him his outlay this year. Mr. Hamilton of Filtown has given a great deal of employment in the same way, and has thus kept his electoral division from coming under the Relief Act."
Captain Fishbourne then makes a statement which is very remarkable, as to the value of land in Ireland. He says that—
"Mr. Hamilton cannot obtain land from his tenants at anything like its value. One man asked him 70 l. for a farm valued at 30 s."
The letter then continues—
"I saw improvements in progress on a small scale in several parts on small holdings that had been vacated during the year. The quantity of corn sown is much greater than usual; and the quantity of green crops is quite surprising. Turnips are being still sown, as some of the committees are very properly forcing the people to sow; and I am sorry to say the people will do little even to benefit themselves unless forced to do so—they have been so indoctrinated with the idea that Government must support them."
This is, I think, upon the whole, a very satisfactory account, especially as far as regards the county of Donegal, which is one of the most destitute in Ireland. There, and in other parts of the western coast of Ireland, I am afraid that distress will prevail to a considerable extent; but nevertheless, with a view to the permanent welfare of Ireland, it is time for Government to withdraw its aid as much as possible. The interference of Government damps all independent exertion; and the longer dependence upon it continues, the loss able will the people be to help themselves. In the letter which I have just quoted, this dependence is strongly stated, and I will conclude by reading a short paragraph of a letter recently received from Colonel Jones, than whom no one has had a better opportunity of forming a correct judgment upon the effect of our late measures:—
"I am perfectly certain, he says, it is that constant reliance upon Government aid and support, which tends more than anything else to neutralize enterprise and individual exertion. The upper classes all seek for it, and the lower orders, once they learn that it is in contemplation to assist them, their own exertions cease."
Sir, I will now come to the expenditure for the relief of distress since August last. I have already stated that the relief of last season up to September, 1846, was 738,000 l., and I am now about to state

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the cost of the relief from that time to the coming harvest, when it is proposed that relief should cease, together with the amount of advances for works up to the 31st of March next. The whole expenditure upon relief works, will he in round numbers 5,000,000 l.; and I have stated the probable expenditure under the Relief Commission at 2,200,000 l. I think, however, that the most satisfactory way of stating the expenditure, will be to divide it into grants and loans, and the account will then be as follows:—

1st Grants:—

Half of the expense of works under 9th and 10th Vic. c. 107

£2,500,000

Grants by Relief Commississioners (Sir J. Burgoyne's Commission)

1,000,000

Staff of Board of Works and of Relief Commission

310,000

Donations to Relief Committees made previously to the establishment of the Relief Commission

190,000

Estimated loss on Commissariat operations, &c., already voted

250,000

Then there is, probable expenditure on fishery piers, and navigation connected with drainage

130,000

Making a total of grants

£4,380,000

The sum total, therefore, by way of grant is 4,380,000 l.
I now come to the advances by way of loan:—

1st. Advances to be repaid out of rates:—

Half of the expense of works under the 9th and 10th Vic., c. 107

£2,500,000

Loans by Relief Commissioners

1,200,000

2nd. Advances for works, repayment of which is to be charged on land, or railroads:—

For railroads

620,000

Increase to Board of Works loan fund

250,000

Estimated advance for land improvement up to April, 1848

400,000

Making a total of advances

£4,970,000

The whole sum, therefore, expended in Ireland since August last, and to be expended up to the 31st of March, 1848, is 9,350,000 l.
SIR J. GRAHAM: How much of that sum was by way of loan?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The amount charged on the rates, partly for relief works and partly for food, is 3,700,000 l., and the amount to be advanced for works of drainage, railroads, &c, is 1,270,000 l. The Committee will remember that, when I made my statement on the probable demands for Ireland early in the Session, I estimated the probable expense for the year, of the relief of distress in Ire-
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land, by all the various means to which I referred, at 10,000,000 l. I then said that 2,000,000 l. had been already advanced, and I took a loan for 8,000,000 l. more. The estimated expenditure now is 9,350,000 l., which, deducted from 10,000,000 l., leaves an available balance in the Exchequer of 650,000 l. At the same time, there may be further demands for loans under the Land Improvement Bill. I am afraid that such a demand will not be made, but I propose to reserve that sum in hand in order to meet any contingent expenses. The vote I now ask for is a further sum of 300,000 l., to be advanced by way of loan upon the security of the rates. That will make in all 1,200,000 l. of loan to Ireland for the system of relief by food, and is the only vote to be taken in this Committee. I shall afterwards propose to go into Committee in order to take a vote for the remission of one half of the sum advanced by loan on the credit of presentments for public works, and for the further advances for drainage and works of public utility; and I shall on Monday propose the votes which are to be taken in Committee of Supply. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving—
"That provision be made, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, for the issue of any sum not exceeding 300,000 l., to be advanced, by way of loan, on the security of Rates to be levied in Ireland, to the Relief Commissioners appointed in pursuance of an Act of the present Session, for the temporary Relief of Destitute Persons in Ireland."
Resolution agreed to be reported.
House resumed.

PUBLIC WORKS AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND) BILL.
House in Committee on the Public Works and Drainage (Ireland) Bill.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved the first of the following Resolutions:—
"1. That the several Counties and Districts in Ireland, now liable to the repayment of sums advanced out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in pursuance of two Acts for the Relief of Distress in Ireland, by the employment of the Labouring Poor (9th and 10th Vic, c. 107, and 10th Vic, c. 10), shall be exonerated from the repayment of one moiety of the sums so advanced for Works of a public nature.
"2. That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury be authorized to direct the Commissioners of Public Works in England to transfer to the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, out of the Funds standing to the account of the

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said Commissioners of Public Works in England, any sum not exceeding 120,000 l., to be applied by the said Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, for making loans under the provisions of any of the Acts authorizing the said Commissioners to make advances for the extension and promotion of Drainage and other Works of public utility in Ireland.
"3. That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury be authorized to direct the issue, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, of any sum not exceeding 250,000 l. to be applied by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, for making loans under the provisions of any of the Acts authorizing the said Commissioners to make advances for the extension and promotion of Drainage and other Works of public utility in Ireland."
SIR JAMES GRAHAMwished to put one question with respect to the expenditure provided for by the statute. He understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that there were now more than 1,400,000 persons in the hospitals of Ireland under the Board of Health. Now, if he understood it properly, the Act which regulated the appointment of the Board of Health and the hospitals provided that all the expense of medicine, nourishment, clothing—everything, in fact, except the salaries of the medical officers—should be defrayed out of the poor rate. He wanted to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any rate had been levied for that purpose in Ireland; and, if not, from what fund all those payments were to be received?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that he was not aware that any part of any rate had been actually collected in repayment of the sums advanced for relief in Ireland; but he was informed that some rates had been struck; and he believed that several were in progress of collection. [Sir J. GRAHAM: From what fund have these expenses been paid?] The right hon. Baronet must not suppose that there has been no collection of rates; although no sum has been collected in repayment of these advances, there has, in fact, been a considerable collection of rates within the last three months; but I am not prepared to say that there may not have been some advances made by the Government for the expenses of the fever hospitals.
MR. B. OSBORNEcould not help expressing his surprise that no hon. Gentleman connected with Ireland had risen to express his opinion upon the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman had represented Ireland as now being in a comparative state of felicity and happiness. He had described the condi-
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tion of Ireland as though it were the happy valley of Rasselas; but he (Mr. Osborne) was sorry to say, that the accounts which he received from that country were of a very different character. He admitted that to a certain degree famine had been staved off; but if the measures of the Government had been successful in giving temporary relief, the people had been altogether demoralised by those measures. Those measures had completely broken down the classes above the labouring classes; and he was perfectly satisfied that neither the farmers nor gentry of Ireland could go through another year of similar distress. Last year's rents had not been paid; and the rates were so heavy upon the gentry that he believed it would be impossible to collect them. He looked forward to the next winter with feelings of the greatest horror and alarm, dreading, as he did, a widespread ruin, amounting almost to revolution, in Ireland next winter. He did not deny that the Soup Bill of the Government had succeeded beyond his expectations, through the wonderful exertions of Sir J. Burgoyne and the other officers employed; but he had received numerous representations—and, amongst others, one from a large establishment employing 1,500 men—which satisfied him that the demoralisation effected by such measures was very great. He regretted extremely the withdrawal of the Bill for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates; because he believed that without such a measure the state of society in Ireland must go on from worse to worse, and that until they adopted measures for the purpose of throwing encumbered estates into the market they could do nothing to ameliorate the condition of Ireland. He did not blame the Government for withdrawing the Bill; they might have been compelled by the pressure of business and other circumstances to do so; but he begged to warn the noble Lord not to be misled by the fair prospects held out by his right hon. Friend; for Ireland was now in a more desperate state than ever she had been before. He well knew that there was organized in Ireland a widespread system for resisting the payment of rates; and that even persons of consideration and substance were doubting whether they should not give in their adherence to the repeal of the Union. The fact was, that a feeling of despair and dismay reigned in the breasts of all classes in Ireland; and whatever party should happen to be in power next Parliament, they would find

75
that they must legislate for Ireland in a very different spirit from that which the present Session had witnessed.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that the hon. Gentleman had entirely misunderstood, and, therefore, entirely misrepresented, the statement of his right hon. Friend. His right hon. Friend had not described Ireland as enjoying at present any peculiar degree of felicity; he was well aware that after all she had gone through during the past year, much of misery and suffering must still remain; but what his right hon. Friend did state was, that the efforts made by Parliament and the Government had been successful in mitigating that suffering; and that the latest measure for the distribution of food in Ireland had been the means of saving human life to a very large extent from the effects of famine, which, with pestilence, had been stalking through the land with fearful strides. That measure had effected those great objects—it had fed the multitude; it had saved human life by hundreds; and it had had the important effect of staying the progress of fever, so that the mortality had greatly diminished. But there was another point to which he wished to advert. The hon. Gentleman had repeated an expression which had been frequently used in the course of these debates; he had said, that whatever the Government had done to relieve the people, they had demoralised them; but there was a great fallacy involved in the use of that word. Looking at it by itself, it could not be denied that for a Government to undertake the employment or the feeding of immense multitudes of the people, and thus to interfere with the ordinary course of affairs, was calculated to produce great evils; but when the hon. Member spoke of demoralisation, he denied altogether that the measures of the Government, taken as a whole, had had that effect. Let the House look at their effect upon crime, and compare the month of June with the month of May in the present year, and they would find the number of cases in June smaller than the number in May by no less than one thousand; and he had the authority of Colonel M'Gregor, at the head of the police in Ireland, for attributing that decrease to the effect of the relief measures; at all events, he was sure that the House would agree with him, that whatever amount of practical evil might result from the necessary interference of the Government on an occasion of unparalleled calamity, it was not to
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be compared with the absolute dissolution of society which would have taken place if the Government had not interfered at all. He was glad that his right hon. Friend had taken an opportunity, before the close of the Session, of laying before Parliament a collected view of the efforts which had been made to relieve the distress in Ireland; and he was satisfied that the country would think that if the calamity which had befallen Ireland was stupendous, the efforts which Parliament and the Government had made to mitigate it were on the same scale. Looking back at all that occurred, he was not prepared to say that there had not been some evils in the system they had pursued, but that, if it were to be done again, he would not pursue a different course. This, too, he would say, that no other course had been suggested to them by which an equal amount of human life could have been saved under the frightful calamity with which they had been visited. As one charged with a large share of the administration in Ireland during the past eventful year, he joined most heartily in the expression of thankfulness made by his right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to the House at large, without distinction of party, for the disinterested support which it had given to Her Majesty's Government under these manifold evils.
MR. CALLAGHANsaid, that when the people of Ireland were able to consider more soberly than they had yet been the efforts of the Government, they would be more grateful than they now seemed to be. He could not so much blame them; for, from his experience of the state of society in his part of the country, he was convinced that people of all ranks were maddened by the extent and suddenness of the calamity with which they were visited. He was glad to hear that the appearance of the people generally was now in a better state than his private accounts would bear out; but he was unwilling to disturb the expectations of the House that such was the case, and, therefore, he would take the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement for granted. He suggested that, by way of provision for a failure of the potato crop this year, depôts should be earlier established, as the suddenness of the last visitation rendered those which were projected nearly useless. He prayed that there might be no fallure; but it was as well to be prepared. Rail as some people might about the potato crop, he contended that

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it was one which suited the people of Ireland; for they got their land usually on credit, and they had time to cultivate it. It gave a larger quantity of food for the labour expended upon it than any other cultivation; but it was contrary to every theory he had heard to condemn a cheap produce because if they were dependent upon a dear one the people would exert themselves more. They were now on the eve of a general election; and when he considered how much depended on its results for good or for evil, he might be permitted to allude to the present condition of the farmer and labourer. He was not bidding for popularity, as he had no intention again to ask for a seat in Parliament; but he must press on the Government the importance of this subject; and whether the Bill brought in on this question by Mr. Sharman Crawford was objectionable, or whether it was not suited to the state of the country, he was convinced that a fair and equitable mode must be adopted to regulate the relations of landlord and tenant. He would assent to a law assimilated to the practice in England, which allowed a tenant a fair valuation for his improvements. He know a case in which a person under Lord Ken-mare was made to pay four times the amount of the original rent, in consequence of improvements made at his own expense, and by his own labour. In conclusion, he wished to remind the House that the landlords of Ireland, who had been blamed for not employing the people, were not able to do so. Their lands were let out to the farmers, and they would not employ one more labourer at the request of the landlords. That was the case nine times out of ten; but oven if it were not so, they had not this year the power, as the rents had been withheld, and the prospects of landlords and of owners of property were not better than his hon. Friend the Member for Wicklow had described.
LORD G. BENTINCKsaid: I can hardly sit still here and not protest against it being supposed that I concur in the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, that if all this had to be done again, we should do again precisely the same. I do not concur in the assertion, that if all this relief was to be afforded again, it would be consistent with the dictates of wisdom to spend 9,300,000 l. in the same way, after the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he has no expectation of an im-
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mediate repayment of any part of it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has also informed us of the difference between two modes of relief—the one by means of soup-kitchens and cooked food, and the other by relief works; and that, while in one district 45,000 persons called on the Government for support when that support was given by relief works, only one-fourth of that number called on them for support when cooked food was given; and, consequently, one-fourth part only of the latter expense was incurred. 4,900,000 l. is the sum which has been expended in relief works; so that, after that experience, I frankly confess that I should not be again inclined to make use of relief works, but that I should rather pursue the other plan of relieving the people by means of cooked food. But, Sir, when I bear in mind, that, after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had informed the House that of the 9,300,000 l, there was but 1,270,000 l. expended on works of utility, I think that of itself is a sufficient reason for attempting, if the whole were to be done over again, to expend as much as possible on works of utility. It is also worthy of observation that, of all the sums expended, it is only the 620,000 l. granted for railways of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer informs us that there is not the least possible doubt of its repayment—that that debt is perfectly safe and certain to be repaid. And while I am on this subject, I may remark, that that fact is a triumphant answer to those who charged us on this side of the House with party clamour when we sought to divert more of this large sum of money—now nearly all irrecoverably lost—into this reproductive channel. It did seem that they were anxious that the relief of Ireland should be administered by one single mode—that which did it at the expense of the people of England; and were entirely opposed to any plan which would accomplish the same object, and cost the people of England nothing. There is one other point on which I wish to make a remark and ask a question. On that point alone the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not quite clear. He stated to the House that in the course of last year the Government established thirty-four large depots. I ask, were there not a hundred and six depôts abolished, or whether they established these thirty-four in addition to those already in existence? I rather think it will turn out that the thirty-four depots were the only ones

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allowed to continue in addition to those private depots which he subsequently mentioned. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the supply of food as if he had met with opposition on that score from this side of the House. Certainly not. On our side of the House we said that these depots were not sufficient in the early part of the famine; that the Government was too late in coming forward with a supply of food for the people, because we held that this sudden calamity put the people of Ireland very much in the position of an army sent suddenly into a thinly populated or desert country. If an army were sent into a wilderness, it would best represent the condition the people of Ireland were suddenly placed in by this unexpected calamity, with no provision made by private enterprise to feed them. So far from complaining that the people were supplied by food from the State, our first complaint was, that the Government were not quite quick enough in the supply of those wants for which there was no machinery at the time by private enterprise to provide. And when the right hon. Gentleman congratulates himself on the improved condition and appearance of the country since the Government took the feeding of the people into their own hands more actively, he sets forth the best proof that the suggestions from this side of the House were perfectly correct; and if Government had moved early in the autumn and with more energy, there would not have been that tremendous mortality which I am now glad to find has ceased. It proves too, that leaving the people to help themselves, and to look for their supply from private enterprise in a country where nothing of the sort had ever occurred before, was in a great measure leaving them helpless in their greatest strait. I do not believe that such was the intention; but I do say that it was a great mistake on the part of Government not to have moved with more energy at an earlier period of the famine than they did. Afterwards, in the course of the spring, I have not the same fault to find. I do, however, say, that if they had exerted themselves in October to meet the famine as they did afterwards, we should not have heard of these terrible calamities, and we should have got over the difficulty with a much smaller loss of life.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid: The noble Lord has not correctly understood what was said by my right hon. Friend who sits near me. He did not say that he would take
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the same steps exactly, or act in precisely the same manner as in the past year, but that on the whole we had no cause to regret our past conduct. One of the suggestions alluded to by the noble Lord was made by hon. Members who usually sit on this side of the House, that it was impossible to relieve a famine of this sort, and that any interference would only make matters worse. That was a course we did not think it wise or humane to accede to. Another was, that of the noble Lord opposite; that we should take upon ourselves the whole duty, send our line-of-battle ships to America, and ransack the world for food for the people of Ireland. [Lord G. BENTINCK: That was not my suggestion.] The noble Lord did not use the phrase "ransack the world," but he advocated sending our ships of war to America; and he has lately revived that idea. We did not think it wise to adopt that suggestion. We thought that by it a less quantity of food would be imported, and that the people would be worse supplied than if we opened our ports widely and encouraged commerce to undertake that supply. We took the course between the one extreme and the other; and endeavoured by measures, which changed, I confess, from time to time, to enable the people, suddenly left without food, to supply themselves. I will not, after the statements made by my right hon. Friend, recur to those measures. The noble Lord has also referred to his favourite doctrine, that we ought to have looked to works of utility. If we had confined ourselves to reproductive works, it would not have answered. If our object had been to invest money for the purpose of obtaining a good return on works of utility, and improving the general condition of Ireland, there is much to be said in favour of such a policy, and I should be the last person in the world to argue against its general principle; but where every village contained a population who were in want of food, there were not any works of a reproductive character within a reasonable distance which could supply them with immediate food. There were no works, railways, or any other of a useful nature to remedy the evil. And, Sir, the late Government came to the same conclusion as that to which we arrived, that there must be some mode of supplying the people with food adapted to a great calamity, and which did not hold forth an immediate or prospective return. Now I wish to say a word with respect to

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a remark made by the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. D. Callaghan), especially as I know how great his authority is among his countrymen. The hon. Gentleman spoke highly in favour of cultivating the potato in Ireland, and observed that he did not know what objection could be raised to such cultivation. Now, I confess I think the objections to persons living for the most part on potatoes are obvious and conclusive. In the first place, if you have a people living on wheat, and if wheat becomes scarce and dear, there are other kinds of food to which they can resort, and the man who is earning 10 s. or 12 s. a week may be enabled to find sustenance for himself and family; but if he be in the receipt of wages which can only supply him with the lowest description of food, of course it is clear he is unable, unless he gets an increase of wages—which unfortunately is not often the case—to supply himself with any higher description of food. Therefore it is that I object to that food which is of an inferior description, and which, being produceable by a small quantity of labour, is accessible to the poor man as compared with food of a better description, which is acquired by patient and continuous labour, and which brings with it some of the comforts, and what may be called the luxuries, denied to the labourer contented with an inferior kind of food. Another obvious objection to the potato is, that of wheat being a food which can be kept not for one year only, but for a great number of years—as has been proved by the cars grown from the wheat found in Egyptian mummies—whilst the potato is of so very perishable a nature that even in the most successful and fertile years, when September arrives the supply of the former year, even if abundant, cannot be found, and the poor labourer must depend for his subsistence upon the crops of the current year. These are reasons which, in my mind, make it a great misfortune that the food of a people should consist solely of the potato; and, great as may be the sacrifice—great as may be the expense to all classes of the people in making the exchange—I hope that, independently of this sudden disease to which the potato has been subjected, all classes in Ireland who have influence with their countrymen, especially members of the Agricultural Society, noblemen and gentlemen, their agents and the principal farmers, will rather induce the people to turn their attention to the cultivation of other crops, and not
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continue to regard the potato as their chief subsistence.
MR. DISRAELI: I am sure if the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his prolonged and able speech, inadvertently made any observation by which he does not wish to be bound, my noble Friend the Member for Lynn does not wish to pin the right hon. Gentleman to it; but the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government accuses my noble Friend in this present instance of misrepresenting the statement of a Cabinet Minister. [Lord J. RUSSELL: No; misunderstanding.] Well, "misunderstanding" the statement of a Cabinet Minister, to the effect that if the Government were again called upon to meet a similar exigency, they would adopt the same policy which they have lately pursued. Now, Sir, I must assure the noble Lord, that having listened most attentively in his statement, my conviction, and I am sure it is the general conviction of the hon. Gentlemen who sit upon the benches near me is, that the opinion expressed by Her Majesty's Ministers means in effect that, on a general review of what occurred, they would again act in the same manner; therefore, without dwelling further on the point, I must take leave to tell the noble Lord that he was not justified in supposing that there was any mis-statement or misconception on the part of my noble Friend the Member for Lynn. The observation was certainly made, and we are not to submit to the imputation that we have mistaken the expressions of Her Majesty's Ministers, for upon reflection they must admit they were used. I am not one of those, who, when the noble Lord at the head of the Government takes a general review of the proceedings of the Session, and of the policy exercised towards Ireland, would come forward to criticise his conduct too closely; for it may be within the recollection of the House, that I took the earliest opportunity in my power to state that I thought the calamity which Government was culled upon to meet, was one of the most extraordinary, remarkable, and indeed I may say unprecedented circumstances which could occur in the history of a country, and that the conduct of Government with respect to it was beyond criticism. Although it is easy in July to moralise on the best means which might have been taken to mitigate and arrest the calamity, I believe the Government, in adopting the measures they did, exhibited great energy and ability, and have entitled themselves

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to the thanks and confidence of the country. But if subsequent criticisms be made on the conduct of the Government, I think we are fairly justified in recalling to the mind of the noble Lord and his Colleagues the events which have occurred with reference to Ireland, and the policy which has been pursued. The noble Lord at the head of the Government says there were two courses which Her Majesty's Ministers might have adopted. The noble Lord said they might have done nothing: they might have acted on the principles of political economy; but those principles, I am glad to say, for his own sake, and for the sake of the country, the noble Lord has throughout repudiated when dealing with this subject. The noble Lord says that Her Majesty's Ministers might have acted upon that principle, or that they might have followed the line of policy indicated by the statement of my noble Friend the Member for Lynn, in which he urged the employment of the people on works of immediate utility and reproductive character. The Ministers acted according to circumstances, and having done so they say, "We may have been right or we may have been wrong in the way in which we acted, and you must be satisfied." I was prepared not to be dissatisfied; and I repeat that under circumstances of extreme difficulty they acted with an energy and ability that entitled them to the confidence of the country. The question might have remained there as settled. But what has occurred since? Her Majesty's Ministers pursuing that system did not pursue it with unfaltering spirit—they hesitated, reconsidered, and deliberated whether it was not necessary to decide whether a new course ought not to be pursued. My noble Friend the Member for Lynn brought forward his project, and stated his line of policy under circumstances which, it must be admitted, were by no means of an encouraging kind. And what was the gist of his measure? My noble Friend said that the great object of the country should be that in the expenditure of the public money works of a reproductive character should be prosecuted. That was the general policy of my noble Friend, in contradistinction to the policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government. It was in consequence of the Government faltering in their course that the principles upon which the government of Ireland should be conducted, was brought under discussion; and then we who were willing to support the Government if they had
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continued in that line of policy were quite justified in giving our opinions and support in favour of the general line of policy which at all times and under under every form has been brought before the House and country with so much ability and perseverance by my noble Friend the Member for Lynn. Now, what has been the result? The noble Lord at the head of the Government admits that as far as practical results can guide us, the policy of my noble Friend was correct, and that the only secure and profitable investment is the one made on the principle laid down by my noble Friend. Therefore it is that now, when subsequent discussions have taken place upon the policy of the Government towards Ireland—though I will not shrink from the expression of confidence I gave to the Government, and though if there were a vote on that subject I would not join in a want-of-confidence vote—I feel myself at liberty to state my opinion with respect to the policy of my noble Friend. I think I may be justified in all these succeeding discussions, notwithstanding that general approval of the policy of the Government, to enforce the principles of my noble Friend, and to say that the result of the Session tends in a remarkable degree to confirm the discretion and policy of the views taken by the noble Lord, with respect to the course to be taken by this country in relation to, I hope I may say, the recent crisis in Ireland. Referrring, now, to a minor point, but one of some interest, when the noble Lord at the head of the Government drew a comparison between the two courses of policy proposed to the Government, namely, to employ a navy to import food, or not to import food at all, I must remind him that my noble Friend the Member for Lynn never brought forward the extravagant proposition of employing the Navy to import food to Ireland. I remember my noble Friend did say one night that we had a considerable squadron lying idle in the Tagus—and, by the by whether that squadron has since been employed in a manner satisfactory to the people of this country is another question—but my noble Friend did not recommend its employment in that service—he said, "You have nine ships in the Tagus. You have the Albion, you have the Queen, you have the Hibernia, and you have the st. Vincent, with others whose names I do not recall." Those ships, the tonnage of which amounted to 12,000 tons, were lying-idle in the Tagus, and the entire tonnage

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entered into the ports of Ireland under the recent suspension of the Navigation Laws was only 8,000 tons. It is true my noble Friend recommended you to employ those ships in the transport of provisions; but I ask whether that simple suggestion justifies the noble Lord at the head of the Government in indulging in the surmise that my noble Friend intended to employ the whole naval force of the country in this service? It is very advantageous at the end of the Session, after so many discussions on the state of Ireland have taken place, to be favoured with the elaborate details of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has taken this opportunity to vindicate his course, and to make the most modest declaration possible, that the Government, after our six months' experience of their conduct, are satisfied that everything they have done is absolute wisdom; and that, if called upon again, they would retrace their steps with the most elaborate accuracy. And when the noble Lord at the head of the Government gets up to say, "We might have done nothing, or we might have done what the noble Member for Lynn recommended, but we have taken neither one course nor the other, and we have been wise in not following the policy of the noble Lord," I beg to remind the country, that the only part of your policy which you admit has succeeded is that recommended by my noble Friend. And when Her Majesty's Government tell me that they are right on the one hand in doing nothing, and correct on the other in not doing all they might have done, I leave them to the enjoyment of that golden mediocrity of which they are so proud.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that both the noble Lord and the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, had attributed to his right hon. Friend an expression that he had in fact never made use of—for it was he (Mr. Labouchere) that had used the expression to which the noble Lord and the hon. Gentleman had alluded. But what he said, he believed, was this, that, looking back to the course pursued by the Government, he retained the opinion he had before expressed, and believed that they could not have taken a very different course; that although partial errors might have been urged against them, they could not have taken a very different course; that he did not think it would have been wise at once to resort to a system of relief by rations; that they found, when they came into office, a system of relief by public
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works; and that he believed that in the main they had not committed an error in the course they had adopted; but he believed he did not say that they should have again pursued the same course under the same circumstances. He could not agree with the hon. Gentleman, that the result of experience proved that the policy of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn was correct. There were two main points in that policy: the one was an extensive system of railway operations; the other was a complete interference with the provisioning of Ireland. He maintained his opinion, that if those two courses had been adopted by the Government, they would have produced irreparable mischief, and entirely fail in the object of relief. To talk about free trade when millions of the people were starving, and to apply those doctrines to such a state of things, was an error. It was one thing to apply those doctrines when they were really applicable; but it was quite another thing to interfere with the provision trade of the whole country. That set the whole doctrines of free trade at defiance; and did the noble Lord suppose that they would not have suffered for it? He believed that if they had undertaken the provisioning of Ireland by importing food and then distributing it, the result would have been most calamitous; and, to use a phrase he had heard before in that House, "it would have been substituting the watering-pot for the shower." He believed that any such a course would have dried up the resources of trade in the country, and would have been a great calamity.
LORD G. BENTINCKobserved, that neither the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor the noble Lord at the head of the Government had answered his question with respect to the thirty-four depôts. He should be glad to know whether those depôts were opened in addition to the previously existing ones? He adhered to his opinion, that if the 330,000 quarters of grain had been distributed at an earlier period, it would have been very much more beneficial to the people.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it was perfectly true that a number of small depôts were open in the course of last year, which were subsequently closed, as it was found more expedient to open others capable of holding the large quantity of provisions to be distributed through the assistance of the relief

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committees and the local agents. From August last down to the present period, there never was a time in which food was not to be found in the Government stores on the western coasts of Ireland.
MR. STAFFORD O'BRIENwished to call attention to the doctrine laid clown by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, namely, that the free-trade principle could not be adhered to under all circumstances. What would the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester, and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton—both members of a society whose great doctrine was that free trade was capable of working well under all circumstances—what would they think of such an assertion? A high authority—an important officer in a free-trade Government—had now admitted that the free-trade principle was not applicable to the present condition of the country, and that Government was obliged to fall back on the protective system. Like a great man who said he would live his life over again, if he could correct in the second edition the errors of the first, the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland fully approved of what had been done in the free-trade direction; but if the Government found the 9th and 10th of Victoria had worked successfully, why did they supersede that Act by the soup kitchens? The right hon. Gentleman took too much credit to himself when he stated that no suggestion was made to the Government as to the course they should pursue, and that they were entitled to all the credit due to any beneficial measures which they had introduced. He had had the honour of pressing upon the Government a system which was received with the greatest attention—he meant the townland system—a system which would give the proprietors and occupiers of the soil a direct interest in its improvement. He believed the Government were actuated by the best possible motives, and that in their desire to servo Ireland they had risked some English popularity.
MR. P. SCROPEbelieved the Government would have acted wiser if they had expended the money voted for the relief of the Irish in reproductive works. Except the railway system, the noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) opposite could not take credit to himself for suggesting any system of public works of a reproductive character. The Government had, on the contrary, proposed several measures of a reproductive character, but those measures had been
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dropped. The Waste Lands Improvement Bill and the scheme of arterial drainage promised in the beginning of the Session, had been altogether lost sight of, and 7,000,000 l. or 8,000,000 l. of money had been expended without any prospect of an ultimate return. He wished it to be borne in mind by the House and by Her Majesty's Government that such an expenditure could not bear repetition.
SIR R. FERGUSONhoped a statement of what would be the requirements of the two unions in the county of Mayo, which were at present under the charge of the Government, would be laid before the House, and that Parliament would also be informed of how those requirements were to be met.
Resolutions agreed to, and ordered to be reported.
House resumed.
Adjourned at Ten o'clock.