Commons Sitting of 13 April 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Registration of Voters; Quakers' and Jews' Marriages.
Reported.—Prisons (Ireland).
3° and passed:—Fever (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. C. Bruce, from the Presbytery of Aberlour, and Sir H. Campbell, from the Presbytery of Dunse, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. A. Smith, from Watton, for Repeal of the Maynooth College Act.—By Colonel Lindsay and other Hon. Members, from several places, against the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Mr. H. Berkeley and other Hon. Members, from several places, in Favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Rochester, against the Use of Grain in Breweries and Distilleries.—By Mr. A. Smith, from Hertford, respecting Remuneration to Tax Assessors and Collectors.—By Viscount Clive, from Justices of the Peace for the County of Salop, against the Custody of Offenders Bill.—By Mr. Ainsworth and several other Hon. Members, from a great many places, against the Proposed Plan of Education.—By Mr. Muntz, from Birmingham, and Mr. Ord, from David H. Wilson, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in Favour of the Proposed Plan of Education.—By Captain Pechell, from Guardians of the Poor of the East Preston Union, for an Efficient Poor Law (Ireland), and for Repeal of Aleration of the Poor Removal Act.—By Mr. Tomline, from Shrewsbury, against the Railways Bill.—By Mr. C. Bruce, from the Presbytery of Aberlour, and Sir Hugh Campbell, from the Presbytery of Dunse, against the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. C. Bruce, from Ministers and Elders of the Kirk Session of Keith, and the Earl of Lincoln, from Members of the Kirk Session of the Parish of Hamilton, against the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill, and the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. Muntz, from Birmingham, for Alteration of the Law respecting the Sale of Beer.

THE EXPERIMENTAL SQUADRON.
SIR CHARLES NAPIERwished to know from the Secretary of the Admiralty whether there would be any objection to produce a copy of Admiral Parker's report as to the sailing of the squadron under his command. In case no report had been made to the Admiralty, he was anxious to know whether the Admiralty would call on Admiral Parker to furnish his report for that House, as it was well known the gallant Admiral had prepared a report.
ADMIRAL DUNDASsaid, a communication had been received from Sir Hyde Parker, but no regular report had been

745
made by that gallant Officer to the Admiralty.
SIR C. NAPIERsaid, that the gallant Admiral had not given any answer to his question. What he asked was, whether the gallant Officer would call upon Sir Hyde Parker for his report, because, that such a report had been prepared, he knew perfectly well.
ADMIRAL DUNDASwould inquire into the matter.

REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS.
MR. WALPOLEmoved, in pursuance of notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law for the registration of persons entitled to vote in the election of Members to serve in Parliament for England and Wales, pursuant to suggestions contained in the Report of the Committee on Notes of Electors. The hon. and learned Gentleman said he would not, on this occasion, do more than state the leading objects of his Bill, reserving for the second reading a more detailed statement of its provisions. His chief purpose was to prevent that wholesale system of raising objections to voters, by which much injustice was now wrought; and this he proposed to do by giving to all bonâ fide electors the right of retaining their names on the register without being exposed to frivolous and vexatious objections. He sought to accomplish his object by the imposition of a heavy penalty on the objector who, without good and probable cause, objected to the vote. Another means by which he sought to secure the quiet right of a bonâ fide voter was to take away all objections founded upon mere technical grounds, without going at all to the merits; but he had another object, which was that of facilitating the purification of the electoral lists, by giving to the bonâ fide objector increased means of effecting that purpose, at the same time that his power should be so restricted as not to admit of his acting vexatiously or injuriously towards the elector. He would not go further into the nature of the measure; but would just state, that it was a Bill framed in conformity with the suggestions contained in the report of the Committee on Votes of Electors.
Leave given. Bill brought in, and read a first time.

RETAIL BREWERS.
MR. MUNTZpresented a petition signed by between 700 and 800 retail brewers
746
of the midland counties, praying that they might be allowed to keep their houses open till twelve o'clock at night, and proceeded to make the Motion of which he had given notice. The subject of his Bill lay in a very small compass. The retail brewers were of opinion that they had not been fairly dealt with in being obliged to close at eleven instead of twelve o'clock. They complained, with some reason, that the parties who frequented their houses were compelled to leave at such an hour that they usually adjourned to the houses of licensed victuallers to finish the evening, and there spend the money which ought to be spent with them. They could see no reason why an hour longer should be granted to the retail brewers of London, asserting that although the hours of the upper classes in London might be later than in the country, the same rule by no means prevailed with reference to the working classes. He confessed, that, for his own part, he had always thought the law allowing brewers to retail beer on the premises very questionable; but such being the law, the brewers now asked to be placed on an equal footing with others. He, therefore, begged leave to move for a Bill to enable retail brewers in the midland counties to keep open their houses till twelve o'clock at night, the same as the metropolitan retail brewers.
SIR G. GREYsaid, entertaining, as he did, a strong objection to the proposition of the hon. Member, it was hardly worth while to observe the courtesy usual in such cases, by allowing the Bill to be introduced. The 3rd and 4th Victoria, chap. 61, fixed three periods at which beer-shops should be closed. He called them beer-shops; for, let the hon. Member designate them as he might, that was what these retail brewers really were. From what he had heard with respect to the manner in which those shops were conducted in Manchester, Birmingham, and other large places, he believed they were under the management of very respectable persons; but beer-shops they nevertheless were, and constituted a class of houses very distinct from those occupied by licensed victuallers. By the statute he had quoted, all such houses within the city of London and Westminster, and the district around which were within the supervision of the metropolitan police, were allowed to keep open till twelve o'clock; in other large places, containing a certain amount of population, they were allowed to keep open till eleven

747
o'clock; while in country places and thinly populated districts they were only allowed to keep open till 10 o'clock. Now, the proposition of the hon. Gentleman was, that all the beer-shops throughout the country should be allowed to keep open till 12 o'clock. He did not see any reason for this, or any good ground why the present regulations should be disturbed, The distinction as to the hours between the metropolitan and the country districts was obviously founded upon the fact that the beer-houses within the metropolitan districts and of large towns would be under better supervision by means of the police than in country places; which, in his opinion, was a very sound distinction, and he must therefore oppose the introduction of the Bill.
MR. MUNTZdeemed it his duty to divide the House on his Motion.
House divided:—Ayes 4; Noes 77: Majority 73.

List of the AYES.

Hume, J.

TELLERS.

O'Connell, M. J.

Pechell, Capt.

Muntz, G. F.

Trelawny, J. S.

Collett J.

List of the NOES.

Adderley, C. B.

Hawes, B.

Arkwright, G.

Henley, J. W.

Baillie, H. J.

Hindley, C.

Baillie, W.

Hope, Sir J.

Baring, rt. hon. F. T.

Hope, G. W.

Broadley, H.

Hudson, G.

Brotherton, J.

Humphery, Ald.

Brown, W.

James, Sir W. C.

Bruce, C. L. C.

Jervis, Sir J.

Carew, W. H. P.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Christie, W. D.

Lindsay, Col.

Clive, Visct.

Loch, J.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Lowther, Sir J. H.

Cripps, W.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Dalrymple, Capt.

Maitland, T.

Davies, D. A. S.

Manners, Lord J.

Dick, Q.

Marjoribanks, S.

Dickinson, F. H.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Disraeli, B.

Molesworth, Sir W.

Dodd, G.

Morpeth, Visct.

Duncan, G.

Neville, R.

Duncombe, T.

Newport, Visct.

Dundas, Sir D.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Escott, B.

Oswald, A.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Palmer, G.

Forster, M.

Parker, J.

French, F.

Philips, M.

Fuller, A. E.

Pusey, P.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

Rendlesham, Lord

Gore, hon. R.

Repton, G. W. J.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Rutherfurd, A.

Greene, T.

Smythe, hon. G.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Hamilton, W. J.

Spooner, R.

Hastie, A.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Hatton, Capt. V.

Staunton, Sir G. T.

748

Trotter, J.

Yorke, H. R.

Turner, E.

TELLERS.

Waddington, H. S.

Tufnell, H.

Ward, H. J.

Hill, Lord M.

NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
MR. HUMEthen moved for various returns of the monies to be expended on the New Houses of Parliament.
MR. H. J. BAILLIEsaid, he was happy to find that the hon. Member for Montrose had moved for these returns. The original estimate of the expense of the New Houses was 800,000 l.; but already nearly 1,000,000 l. had been expended, and he had little doubt that before the building was finished the cost would not be less than 2,000,000 l. He thought the House must take into their hands the control of the future expenditure.
Motion agreed to.

JEWS AND QUAKERS.
MR. CHRISTIEmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to remove doubts as to Quakers' and Jews' marriages solemnized before the 2nd day of March 1837. The hon. Member said, that in the recent investigation of the law of marriage, which had taken place in consequence of certain questions that arose with respect to the marriages of Presbyterians in Ireland, doubts had been thrown out by some of the Judges on the bench as to the validity of the marriages of Jews and Quakers since the Act of 1835; and it was to remove those doubts that he now proposed to bring in a Bill.
SIR G. GREYsaid, he was assured by a very high legal authority that no such doubt as that alluded to by the hon. and learned Gentleman did really exist; but, as some doubt had certainly been thrown out from the bench, there could be no objection to the introduction of this Bill.
Motion agreed to.

COSTS OF PRIVATE BILLS.
MR. HUME, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend an Act to establish a taxation of costs on Private Bills in the House of Commons, said that the Committee on Private Bills as soon as they met this Session, had considered it their duty to follow the example set by the Committee of the previous Session; and the result of their inquiry appeared in a report which was laid before the House on the 29th of March. In that report they recommended that no time should be lost in

749
the introduction of a Bill to afford that protection which the Committee considered persons bringing Bills into the House had a right to expect. Every other court in this country had the power of checking, controlling, and regulating the expense of its proceedings; and the Bill which he had been requested to propose was for the purpose of giving to the Speaker of the House the same power as the Lord Chancellor possessed in the Court of Chancery, by which a scale of fees was framed, and an officer appointed to tax the bills of all those who chose to submit to such taxation. There was, however, one question of considerable difficulty, namely, whether all bills of costs should be necessarily taxed, or whether the taxation should be voluntary on the part of those who had to pay the bills. A difference of opinion upon that point certainly existed; but the Committee had recommended as a general rule that the former course should be adopted, and that all bills should be taxed before any persons were called on to pay any part of the expenses. If there were any doubt upon this subject in the mind of any person who had at all attended to proceedings before Parliament, he would mention one or two cases that came before the Committee to show the importance of such a Bill as that which he proposed. In the appendix of the report of last Session, was the examination of a resident local judge in Liverpool on the subject, and that gentleman stated that not less than sixty-two local Bills existed in that borough; and on the Committee asking for an account of the expenses incurred for legislation before that House since the passing of the Reform Bill, he gave the following:—
"Liverpool Corporation, for local Acts, 1836 to 1844, 24,125 l.; Liverpool Sewerage Commission, 1842 to 1843, 3,920 l.; Liverpool and Harrington Waterworks Company, 1822 to 1843, 3,618; Liverpool Docks, 1838, to the 31st of November, 1846, 31,242 l.; Liverpool New Gas and Coke Company, 1823 to 1845, 7,698 l.; Liverpool Gaslight Company, 58 George III., c. 66, and 4 Victoria, c. 28, and opposition, 5,885 l.; Bootle Waterworks, Liverpool, 3,164 l.; Toxteth-park Local Act, 1842 to 1846, 2,679 l. Total, Liverpool, 82,331 l."
If all those bills had been submitted to taxation, before the authorities were warranted in paying them, he had no hesitation in saying that there would have been a very considerable reduction in that amount. In future, therefore, if the House should sanction the Bill which he proposed,
750
that remedy would be available. He found, also, that the trustees of the river Clyde—a most important trust, certainly—had, since 1836, spent, in applications to that House and in law expenses, 56,847 l.—as large a sum as was actually laid out in the improvement of the river, the Parliamentary expenses alone being 20,468 l. At the end of the report the Committee thought it right to state an example of how much could be charged for doing very little business, and he would now mention it. The Coal Term Act of Newcastle expired the Session before last; a Bill was brought in to continue it; it consisted of only two clauses, a third being introduced in Committee. He understood from the hon. Member for Sunderland, who was on the Committee, that not more than an hour was occupied before them; but the attorney's bill was 1,985 l. He would state also, with reference to one railway, the London and York, that the preliminary expenses of the Bill amounted to no less a sum than 432,620 l. The preliminary expenses of passing the Bill for the Direct Northern Railway was 123,414 l.; the expenses of the London and York Extension was 309,206 l.; making in the whole, 432,620 l. Only that morning he had received from Bury an account of the expense of a Bill that passed that House last Session. It was a sanitary Bill; but the charge to the corporation was 3,676 l. He ventured to hope that the House would agree with him when he said that there ought to exist those checks which by the Bill it was proposed should be given.
Leave given.

HASLAR HOSPITAL.
CAPTAIN PECHELLcalled the attention of the House to the management of Haslar Hospital, and referred to the case of Lieutenant Forbes, who was arrested for debts contracted by his wife, he being at the time blind and insane.
MR. WARDsaid, the Board of Admiralty were perfectly aware of the abuses which had existed in the management of Haslar Hospital; but he hoped his hon. Friend would recollect that those abuses were of very ancient date; and he was now happy to be able to state that the expense of maintaining the inmates of that institution had been reduced within the very narrowest limits. He had also to add, that the balance of the half-pay of each patient was handed over to his family. He could, however, hold out no hope that the present

751
Board of Admiralty would authorize the refunding of the overcharges made before the exact cost of maintenance had been ascertained. He could assure his hon. and gallant Friend that at the Board of Admiralty there was no indifference upon this subject.

FEVER HOSPITALS (IRELAND).
On the Order of the Day being read for the Third Reading of the Fever (Ireland) Bill,
MR. FRENCHrose to make a few observations, but not for the purpose of opposing the progress of the Bill. There now prevailed in Ireland a low typhus, which generally carried off the parties suffering under it in the course of two or three days. But besides that, there was another fever of a very virulent character generated in the workhouses; and, he regretted to say, that these fevers now prevailed to a very alarming extent—to an extent such as made it incumbent on the Government to establish without delay an efficient system of medical superintendence throughout the whole of Ireland. There were now in Ireland 600 dispensaries—there were 150 fever hospitals; by the Bill at present, there would be established as many as 1,800 institutions for affording medical relief, and he thought that the people of that country ought not to be so heavily taxed as by the Bill it was proposed to tax them, without affording the benefit of competent medical inspection. The principle which he sought to induce was no novelty. Every Bill heretofore introduced by the Government and others upon this subject contained one most important feature—namely, the establishment of a competent medical board of inspection. The several commissions of inquiry—the Poor Law Commissioners—the late Government in the Medical Charities Bill, which they introduced—a Committee of this House—and, in the last Session, a Committee of the Lords, all strongly recommended such a board. At a large meeting of Irish Peers and Members, lately held, a strong opinion was expressed as to the necessity for a board of medical inspection; a resolution to that effect was adopted; and he (Mr. French) was deputed by the meeting to submit its views and resolutions to Her Majesty's Government—yet in the present Bill there was no such provision. There now existed, amongst all the medical incorporated bodies of Ireland a strong disposition to pull with the Government; and he (Mr. French)
752
hoped that their wishes in favour of efficient inspection would be attended to on the present occasion.
MR. LABOUCHEREwas quite aware of the importance of the subject which had now been brought under the consideration of the House; he begged, however, to remind hon. Members that the Bill was one only of a temporary nature. But that, even so considered, it afforded the best means of checking the progress of fever. With regard to the subject of medical inspection, he was not then prepared to make any statement whatever. He was, however, most anxious to assure the House that the subject was under the consideration of the Government. It would be necessary for him to add one or two clauses to the Bill; it was only right that the Treasury should be entitled to some check over the expenditure; the appointments might be in the hands of those to whom they had been intrusted according to the original arrangement; but the Treasury ought to possess a check. It had been recommended, and care would be taken to insure it, that a separation of those who were affected with fever from those who were in health should be made. The Bill provided that relief should, as much as possible, be afforded to the patients at the dispensaries and in the hospitals; but he feared that strict rules on that point could not in every case be rigidly enforced, and therefore some discretionary power must be left.
MR. FRENCH, in reply to the observations of his right hon. Friend with reference to the Board of Health, must say that, as at present constituted, the Board of Health does not represent the profession in Ireland. "It is true that a man of the highest eminence (Sir Philip Crampton) is at its head; but it is equally true that those men whose distinguished professional career have added lustre to the high character, throughout Europe, of the Irish College of Surgeons and Physicians, have been left off this board. So long as such a system of exclusion is continued, it is impossible to expect that the Board of Health can obtain the confidence either of the profession or of the public." He should not, however, offer any objection to the bringing up of the clauses, although it appeared to him that they were totally unnecessary, as the cases referred to by his right hon. Friend were amply provided for by the 7th Clause.
The additional clauses were then brought up and agreed to, and the Bill read a third time and passed.
House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock.