Commons Sitting of 12 April 1847

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN. For Bedford County, Lord Charles James Fox Russell.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Parliamentary Electors.
2° Exchequer Bills (18, 310, 700 l.).
Reported.—Army Service; Troops during Elections.
3° Harbours, Docks, and Piers, Clauses.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord C. Russell, from Bedford, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Sir G. Clerk and Captain Gordon, from several places, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Sir R. H. Inglis, from several places, against the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Dr. Bowring, from Exeter, in Favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Mr. Hume, from Haddington, for Repeal of the Inventory Duty, &c.—By Lord George Bentinck, from Bradford, for Repeal of the Anatomy Act; also, from Donald Bethune, of Toronto, Canada, for Protection.—By Lord Alford and other Hon. Members, from a great many places, against the Proposed Plan of Education.—By Viscount Sandon, from Liverpool, for Alteration of the Proposed Plan of Education.—By Mr. Bannerman, from Aberdeen, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Mr. Bowring, from Ramsey, Isle of Man, in Favour of the Ports, Harbours, &c. Bill (1846).—By Mr. J. Dundas, from Blackheath, and Sir T. Troubridge, from Sandwich, for the Suppression of Promiscuous Intercourse.—By Mr. Strutt, from Glasgow, in Favour of the Railways Bill.—By Sir G. Clerk and Mr. Lockhart, from several places, against the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.

SUPPLY—THE ARMY.
LORD J. RUSSELLhaving moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
SIR H. DOUGLASrose, pursuant to notice, to call attention to the cases of medical officers, surgeons, and paymasters of regiments, who have not been included in the warrant issued in May, 1846, consequent upon the Motion he made in April, 1845, for an improved retirement to a limited number of medical officers, and all officers of regimental staff, to extend to them the benefits conferred by the warrant dated the 1st of October, 1840, to officers of all other branches and arms of the service. Deeply impressed with the magnitude of the calamity which has fallen upon our sister island, and thereby on the nation, he should be most reluctant to recommend any measure for the adoption of the Legislature which could have the effect of adding significantly to the burdens sustained by the people at this inauspicious moment; and were this a proposition of that character, he would defer it to a more convenient season. But the act of justice which he was about to seek at their hands would not have this effect; and the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he were present, far from being alarmed, would be surprised at the smallness of the cost at which this boon might be impartially conceded, the measure being, to a certain extent, self-sustaining. He would briefly state the case. In October, 1840, a warrant was issued, granting full-pay retirement to a limited number of officers of infantry and cavalry, including 20 lieutenant-colonels, 20 majors, and 115 captains, of whom 45 might be brevet-majors. This boon was soon after extended by warrant to a limited number of officers of artillery, engineers, and marines, and Navy; and he might mention here that the promotion of these retired officers by brevet was allowed to go on, which not being the case with retired officers of cavalry and infantry, was a distinction which, in his opinion, ought not to exist, and to remove which would cost nothing. This full-pay retirement, however, having been granted to officers of cavalry, infantry, artillery, engineers, and marines, was not extended to medical officers, nor to the officers of the regimental staff, namely, surgeons, paymasters, quartermasters, and veterinary surgeons. Deeming this distinction
698
unjust, he (Sir H. Douglas), in the year 1845, in Committee on the Army Estimates, brought the subject under the consideration of the House, when his views appeared to meet with unanimous approbation, at least no objection was urged against them. In May, 1846, a warrant was issued, granting an increased retirement to quartermasters and veterinary surgeons to the extent of about five-sixths of their pay; but neither paymaster nor surgeon were included. The improved retirement granted to veterinary surgeons and quartermasters was 8s. and 10 s. a day, respectively, after thirty years' service. His object was to urge the just claims of paymasters, regimental surgeons, and medical officers, to participate, in like proportion, in those advantages. The principle of this arrangement was not confined to the two classes of officers to which he referred, but was established by Act of Parliament to regulate the amount of retired allowance to all public functionaries in certain proportions to their full pay, or salaries, at the time of retirement, increasing by twelfths for every five years' service, commencing after having served ten. The effect of this would be to increase the retiring pay of the other two classes, from 15 s. to 18 s. and a fraction. The measure, as he had stated, would, to a certain extent, be self-sustaining, for the pay of a regimental surgeon who had served thirty years, being 1l. 2s. a day; and that of a paymaster, 1l. 2s. 6d.; and the former being succeeded by a surgeon, commencing on 13 s. a day, and the paymaster by one on 12 s. 6d. a day, there would obviously be a commensurate saving. But what paymaster or surgeon would give up 22 s. a day in addition to the advantages which he derived from barrack accommodation, lights, fuel, a soldier servant, and the advantages of a mess, which might be taken altogether, equal to 10 s. more, to retire on 15 s. a day? What was the consequence? That these officers were obliged to cling to active service long after their physical powers were too much impaired to discharge efficiently their laborious duties, and much longer consequently than was consistent with the good of the service or their own comfort. The hon. and gallant Member then referred to documents, from which he cited cases of paymasters who had been from thirty-eight to forty-four years in the service, and referred to letters written by those officers, showing the pernicious effects which such long service had produced on their health and efficiency.

699

Names.

Regiments.

Services.

Total years Serv.

Drawwater

4 Dr. Guards

Copenhagen

41

West Indies

Peninsula

Eagar

90th Reg.

40

Pennington

48th Reg.

Peninsula, 1809 to 1814

39

Jellicoe

London Dis.

39

Leech

9th Lancers

Peninsula, 1813, to end

39

Prior

12th Lancers

East Indies

37

Grimes

Chathan

Pindarree

39

Boyd

11th Reg.

Watcharer

38

Nicholson

53rd and 75th

Peninsula 5

38

Jamaica 11

East Indies 3

Maunsell

Newry

38

Cormick

3rd Dragoons

1812, to end Penin. 1808, to 1813, Affghanist., 1842

40

Holden

Rifle Brig.

Calabria, 1810 Adriatic Sicily, Naples

42

Carmichael

36th Brig.

43

Raymond

27th Brig.

38

Dumford

39th Brig.

40

Ralston

64th Brig.

East India

42

Seringapatam

Graham

72nd Brig.

41

Court

73rd Brig.

39

Hunter

98th Brig.

38

He was aware that paymaster Drawwater had, by the last Gazette, retired, and had been succeeded by paymaster Ralston, of the 64th Regiment; but it appeared by a letter he held in his hand, that paymaster Ralston would very much prefer the provision of an improved retirement; whilst paymaster Drawwater, in despair of obtaining this, had retired upon the present inadequate allowance. The following is the statement of paymaster Ralston's services:—
"I purchased a company of Dragoons in 1804, and served with my regiment in India the greatest part of the time till 1819, when the corps was disbanded on arrival in England. I thereby lost the value of my troop, being then a captain. I was seven years in the West Indies, where I was on two different occasions left as the only officer of my rank alive at head-quarters, and had to perform all the duties required of me. I was perpetual president of all regimental courts-martial, courts of inquiry, boards, &c. &c., and, besides, had to take my tour of general, district, and other courts-martial, with the other officers of the command, for many consecutive months without relief. In such a climate, and having to go several miles to general courts-martial, this was rather hard duty, in addition to my own as paymaster. I am nearly forty-three years in the service; for my short half-pay turn was not for my convenience, but by reduction: and by the removal of my regiment from Jamaica to Nova Scotia in winter, I contracted a chest complaint which I have never thoroughly got rid of; having thus lost my health in the service."
The hon. and gallant Member proceeded to state—Let it not be forgotten that when an officer was appointed paymaster, his half-pay is stopped; and this is the only
700
class of half officer to which this rule is applied; and if he had purchased his commission, he forfeits the right of sale, and loses his purchase-money. The office of paymaster, besides, is one of great responsibility. He is obliged to provide two sureties of 1,000 l. each. He is called upon to serve on courts-martial and courts of inquiry, and not unfrequently has thrown upon him the supervision and drawing up of the quartermaster's and other accounts. However unhealthy the climate may be in which the regiment is stationed, he has less indulgence, as to leave of absence, than any officer in the service; and he never escapes from his responsibilities. He would not contrast the condition, claims, and duties of paymasters, which justly entitled them to consideration, with quartermasters; but would only urge that we were bound to extend to the former the advantages already granted to the latter. And now, with respect to medical officers, surgeons, of regiments, whatever argument could be urged on behalf of paymasters, might be applied with greater force to the case of that learned, most important, and as he thought rather neglected class, entitled on every account to the first consideration and distinction. The army surgeon, it is true, does not purchase his commission; but the expense necessarily invested on his education must not be forgotten; and he, like the paymaster, cannot realize this by sale, for the benefit of his family. No one who knows anything of the severe and painful duties which a medical officer has to discharge, and the services in which he must be engaged, in the presence of disease of every kind, facing death in every shape, can doubt of the hardships which officers of that class must have undergone during a service of thirty years. The surgeon, too, let it be remembered, must be in full possession of all his energies, keep himself well up to the mark in every improvement in practical surgery and in medical science. Paymasters and quartermasters may, with rather diminished powers, cling to the service without any great detriment to it, or inconvenience to themselves, after these had somewhat faded; but there was a period of life beyond which the medical officer, however perfect his intellect, could not discharge effectually his duties on the field as surgeon of the regiment—a period beyond which vision becomes imperfect, the nerve unbraced, the hand too unsteady, in the difficult and delicate operations which

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a surgeon was called upon to perform. No man of the ago of sixty or sixty-two could be expected to retain these faculties unimpaired; and as the great bulk of medical officers enter the army at the age of twenty-four, thirty-two years' service would bring them near to that stage in human existence, beyond which it would be vain and unreasonable to expect that a medical officer of thirty or thirty-five years' service in all climates should retain his efficiency. Officers so circumstanced are aware of this sad truth, but continue to serve, knowing that the half-pay to which they are entitled is insufficient for their wants; that, from bodily infirmities and deficiency of mental energy, they cannot add to their income by private practice, being unequal to compete successfully with younger and more recently educated practitioners, and therefore cling to the service. It is for the interests of the service, then, that men so circumstanced should cede their avocations to younger individuals; but this they can only be tempted to do, or are justified in doing, by our increasing their rates of retirement. The medical officer, while on full-pay, has no cause for complaint—this is sufficient to attach him to the service, but binds him too long, from the rates of retirement being so inadequate. The hon. and gallant Member then cited, from official returns, the cases of many deputy inspectors general of hospitals, and surgeons, who had been from thirty-six to forty-three years in the service.* Thus he had shown that, whilst medical officers had no means of realising, by sale of their commission, the expense of their education, and did not enjoy the advantages of an improved retirement, as granted to veterinary surgeons and quartermasters, he had now, alas! to show, that the widows of medical officers were not so well provided for by pension as the widows of officers of relative rank. The surgeon of a regiment ranks with captain; a staff-surgeon of the first class with major; the deputy-inspector with lieutenant-colonel; the inspector-general of hospitals with a general officer. But the widow of an inspector-general killed in action only gets 80 l. a year, whilst the widow of a general officer of the lowest rank, viz., brigadier-general, gets 90 l. The deputy-inspector's widow gets only 60 l.; but the widow of a lieutenant-colonel 80 l. The staff-surgeon's widow gets 20 l. less than the widow of a ma-
* See Table (as note) following column.
702
jor; and there is a difference of 5l. to the disfavour of the surgeon's relict compared with the widow of a captain. The House will be sensible that, though these differences be of small amount, they are of vast importance to widows and orphans left to such slender provision. The hon. and gallant Member read a letter from the widow of an officer who had served throughout the Peninsular war, and had afterwards died at Jamaica, in which she stated that she had only 45 l. per annum pension; but she complained most that she did not receive the pension to which she was entitled, as her husband had held the relative rank of major.
"My late husband, staff-surgeon Burmester, served for twenty-four years on constant active service—the whole of the Peninsular campaign, the battle of Waterloo, and was with the Army of Occupation in France. He was then sent to Jamaica, where, in discharge of his duty, I had the

* INSPECTORS GENERAL OF HOSPITALS.

Names.

Services.

Total yrs. Serv.

Mahony

Peninsula

39

Franklin

Peninsula.

39

Halket

Walcharen, Canada.

36

Short

Peninsula.

42

STAFF SURGEON, 1st Class.

Stewart

Peninsula.

39

Monroe

59

Grant

Peninsula.

43

Pickering

37

Roe

Peninsula.

38

White

41

McLean

Peninsula.

38

Melvin

37

Names.

Regiments.

Entered Asst. Surgeon.

Surgeon.

Services.

Total yrs. Serv.

Lewis

1 Dragn. Gds.

1111

1830

Peninsula, from 1811 to end.

36

Stephenson

3 Dragn. Gds.

1807

1813

Peninsula, 1809 to end.

39

Flanagan

4 Dragn. Gds.

1806

1813

Canada Peninsula

40

Barlow

5 Dragn. Gds.

1803

1813

Copenhagen Martinique Low Coun.

43

Heriot

6 Dragn. Gds.

1804

1812

Peninsula, 1809 to end.

42

Bartley

1 Dragoons

1810

1826

Peninsula

36

Winterscale

2nd Dragoons

1809

1828

Walcharen Peninsula Waterloo

36

Graham

4th Lt. Drags.

1809

1825

Peninsula, from Jan. 1816 to end. Was on bd. the Kent when burnt.

36

Mouat

15 Lt. Drags.

1812

1827

Burmese

34

Henderson

5th Fusileers

1811

1826

Peninsula

35

Leonard

11 Regt.

1811

1833

Peninsula

35

Mostyn

27 Regt.

1810

1825

Peninsula Waterloo

36

Richardson

2nd West Ind.

1805

1826

Cape G. Hope Monte Video Peninsula

42

Piper

Prov. Batt. Chatham

1806

1823

East Indies China Pindarree War.

41

703
misfortune to lose him, and I was left with three little children.
"Hitherto I have received the small pension of 45 l. per annum, and what I complain of as a sad grievance is, that I do not receive the pension I am entitled to, as my husband held the relative rank of a major."
He observed that he could read volumes of similar documents, but he would not weary the House with any more details. Having explained the ordinary duties of medical officers, he would now beg to say a few words which he hoped would take these officers as a class out of the category of civil functionaries and non-combatants. The medical officer cannot be considered a non-combatant in the sense of personal exposure, nor in many cases, as he could tell, of personal military gallantry. The medical officer is suddenly called upon to discharge duties which require the vigour and powers of endurance of less advanced age; to partake of the fatigue, privations, and diseases incidental to actual service; to brave every climate, to witness death in every form; and to suffer it himself in the field, when administering to those whose lives he is endeavouring to preserve. Two surgeons of Her Majesty's regiments were killed on the field of battle in the operations of the Sutlej; three at Cabul. How many of the Honourable Company's service he knew not. He requested the House to let him endeavour to depict the duties of medical officers on the field of battle. The action is about to commence. The medical officers attached to the troops take post in the immediate rear of their respective corps, and then prepare the implements of their mournful and painful calling. The battle begins; the active combatants, unmindful and regardless of danger, buoyed above the terror of death or of wounds by ardour and excitement, which few can imagine, heed not the casualties that happen around them. Not so the medical officer. The fallen and the disabled that are not beyond the reach of his skill, become the subjects of his immediate care. The fiercer the fight, the more numerous these sad consignments. There, on the naked field, exposed to personal risk, and within reach of the bullets, which may have previously ploughed the ranks of the columns, or lines in his front, the medical officers, with unflinching eye, steady hand, and well-braced nerves, discharge their melancholy functions, and frequently lose their lives in endeavouring to save others. Is the battle won?
704
The troops move forward with exultation to reap the fruits of their victory. The medical officers remain on the bloodstained field, amidst the havoc of war, to collect the mutilated victims, and administer to the sacrifices that victory exacts. Is the battle lost? or is the field, though won, abandoned, as ofttimes happens? The medical officers perform their still more painful duties on the forsaken field, and become themselves captives, in common with those who, by their aid, may survive. Then there was the assault of the fortress, and the storming of the breach, at which medical officers are invariably aiding. And this is the class—such the persons, from whom you withhold advantages enjoyed by the practitioners of a less exalted surgery. The horse is a noble animal; the veterinary science is an important and useful profession; but man is a nobler animal still, and a soldier, apart from other considerations of humanity, a more important and valuable agent. He appealed, then, in the strongest terms, to the feelings and generosity of Her Majesty's Government, to the House, and to the country, against the exclusion of the class of officers whose case he had taken up, from advantages which are extended to others—from a boon which all public servants, civil and military, now enjoy. The hon. and gallant Member stated that he would not enter further into detail, but leave the case to the consideration of the House and the Government; and he hoped he had not appealed in vain to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and would be consoled by the reflection that he had done his best in behalf of these officers.
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, he had really but a very few words to offer in reply to what his hon. and gallant Friend had urged on behalf of those most meritorious officers. The hon. and gallant Gentleman complained that certain understandings that were come to in 1845 had not been fully carried into effect. Of one thing, however, he (Mr. Fox Maule) was quite certain, that his predecessor endeavoured in the Warrant of 1846, to extend the benefits of the retiring allowance to as great a number of officers as possible; and since he had the honour of coming to the office, he confessed that he looked with considerable diffidence to any proposition for altering a warrant settled so late as 1846. He was, he admitted, unwilling, without very good and strong grounds, to disturb the arrangement then made. With

705
regard to the paymasters, the hon. and gallant Officer stated, as he before admitted in 1845, that he had no fault whatever to find with the full pay of that class of officers. His hon. and gallant Friend would, he thought, find that he might as well object to the full pay of any class of officers in the Army, as there was, he considered, no class of men in the British Army who were proportionally better paid. The paymaster was an officer who had, perhaps, as little to do as any officer in it. The duties of the office unquestionably required considerable and very exact attention: but, at the same time, it was scarcely fair, in arranging their retired allowance, to put the paymaster altogether on the footing of those who were called upon to risk life and limb in the service. He found that, on looking at the provisions which were made for the paymasters previous to last year, the half-pay retirement for those officers was only 12 s. 6d., so that in the Warrant of 1846 the paymaster received a certain benefit—namely, that his half-pay after a service of thirty years, of which twenty-five should be as paymaster, was increased from 12 s. 6d. to 15 s. a day. But there was another consideration also which the hon. and gallant Officer overlooked, and that was, that officers who had served for a considerable, number of years before they became paymasters, were permitted for every five years of that service to count two years in their service as paymasters; for ten years they could count five years, and for fifteen years they could count ten years. They had thus a much more speedy access to the period of time when they would be entitled to the retiring allowance, than they were allowed previous to the Warrant of 1846. As to the surgeons, they had, to a certain extent, advantages which the paymaster had not. They were in a branch of the service in which, though promotion was slow, yet it was to a certain extent always running up, and the promotions had been by a recent arrangement expedited. The hon. and gallant Officer had stated that by not giving better retiring pay, officers were induced to cling to the Army longer than they would under other circumstances. It was possible that cases of this description might exist; but, on the other hand, if retiring pensions of a higher class were held out, a longer period of service would be required, so that the effect would remain the same. These officers would cling to the service for the sake of the higher pension, and therefore
706
he did not think that the object of the hon. and gallant Officer would be gained by adopting the course he pointed out. It was extremely unpleasant to discuss matters of this sort; and his own opinion was, that the less the House interfered with them the better. He assured the hon. and gallant Officer it was the wish of the Government to put every matter connected with the Army upon the best possible footing; for during the present year they had given up, for the benefit of the soldier, 50,000 l. from the retiring allowances to pensioners, and they had expended 20,000 l. upon a brevet of which officers would have the advantage. A sum, therefore, of 70,000 l. had been placed at the disposal of the Army by the present Government during this year. The hon. and gallant Officer limited the expenditure which would be caused by adopting his suggestions to 1,300 l. a year. He (Mr. F. Maule) was not aware whether this estimate would be equal to the actual cost; but it must be considered not so much in reference to individual cases, as to the exigencies of the public service. At the same time, so far from putting an extinguisher upon the question, he would state generally that, in considering the arrangements which ought to be made for the various branches of the service, the claims of paymasters, medical officers, and surgeons, and of all other officers, would not be neglected by Her Majesty's Government, if those claims should appear to be founded in justice.
MR. HUMEsaid, the House ought to know the grounds of the application, considering the enormous claims upon the public purse and the present circumstances of the country.
COLONEL LINDSAYconcurred with the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War that both the late and the present Government had done all that it was possible for them to do in improving the Army; but he thought the hon. and gallant Officer had made out a strong case in favour of surgeons, and his principal reason for thinking so was, that considerable difference existed in point of age between surgeons and paymasters with respect to their retiring allowance. The paymaster was generally a captain or lieutenant, who probably had entered the service at eighteen, or perhaps sixteen years of age, whilst the surgeon did not enter the service until he was twenty-three. The consequence was that there was a difference of five, or it might be of seven years, in their age

707
when they became entitled to their respective pensions. Again, whilst other officers, when engaged in foreign service, might return home, the surgeon could not, but was obliged to remain with the regiment. Another circumstance to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded, was the promotion to which surgeons might look forward; but when they found that there were eleven surgeons who had been in the service between thirty and thirty-five years, and twelve between thirty-five and forty, they would see that promotion was not available in all cases. He hoped that the Government would take this matter into their serious consideration, and do justice to the parties whose case had that evening been brought under their consideration. If the matter now before them went to a division, he should certainly support the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend near him.
SIR DE LACY EVANSconsidered the present a peculiarly opportune time to bring a subject of this nature under the consideration of the House: first, because of the character of the policy of a neighbouring country; and, next, because there was a disposition both in the House and in the country to contribute to the improvement, the efficiency, and comfort of the Army. On former occasions hon. Friends of his had thrown out what might be considered taunts of a wasteful expenditure upon the Army; comparisons had also been made between the army estimates of this country and those of foreign Powers. He denied that the expenditure upon the Army was open to the charge of waste; and it was a mistake to suppose that the British Army was more expensive than the French. The French Army cost more than the British Army, although the duties required from it were not so severe. The Army, too, was said to be an unproductive class. On this subject he referred his hon. Friends who made this objection to their great master in political economy, Mr. M'Culloch, who said, on account of the protection afforded by the Army, it ought to be classed among those classes who were supereminently productive.
Question put, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
SIR DE LACY EVANSthen brought under the consideration of the House the subjects of which he had given notice. The first was—
"The Treasury regulation respecting ration stoppages in the Colonies, whereby the Govern-
708
ment derives a profit at the expense of the soldier by the variation in the price of provisions in several of those colonies, contrary to the treatment of the troops stationed in the home territories."
The hon. and gallant Member said that in some colonies provisions were very cheap, in others very dear. The Treasury had thought proper to require that in one half the soldier should pay a profit upon them to the Government as an indemnity for the expense they were at in providing for the other half. It was, however, very difficult to persuade the soldier who was serving in Australia, who knew that the contract and market price for rations was 2d. or 3d. less than he was charged, that he ought to pay that extra price in one colony, because rations were dear in others. The thing was quite out of the question. Eight or nine months had now elapsed since he before attempted to bring this subject under the consideration of the House; and he was then deterred from proceeding with his determination by a promise that justice should be done. Notwithstanding that promise, however, he had been unable to ascertain that any measure of justice—that any measure whatever, had been introduced upon the subject. He trusted the Secretary at War would inform him that he was in error upon that point, and that measures had been taken to correct the existing anomaly. He now came to his second point, which was, whether the Treasury order or arrangement respecting the liquor rations in Australia, had been of a decisive and general nature, applicable to other colonies, and sufficient, in the judgment of the Commander-in-Chief, to prevent any future probable recurrence of mutiny from that cause? It seemed that some time ago the soldier in Australia received an allowance of rum to the value of 1d. per day. It pleased the Governor of the colony, however, to place an import tax upon rum, and the consequence was that rum rose in the market. That being so, the prudent and more temperate of the soldiers sold their rum in the market, and purchased other beverages of a lower juice; but the Colonial Government ascertaining that fact, immediately stopped the issue of rum, and issued in its place the penny per day, to which, no doubt, originally the soldier was only entitled. That stoppage induced the soldiers to suppose that an injury had been put upon them. The regiment, in consequence, mutinied, and two other regiments had to be sent out to ensure their return to their allegiance. He

709
next came to the third point, which related to the propriety of amending the 72nd Clause of the Mutiny Act, containing a special provision for the "wholesome" maintenance of troops on a line of march in England, no similar or proportionate allowance being made for troops on the same duty in Ireland or Scotland. That 72nd Clause of the Mutiny Act very carefully provided for troops on a line of march in England; but it contained no such provision for troops performing the same duty in Scotland and Ireland. It appeared that in England, soldiers on a line of march were provided each day with a hot meal of meat and vegetables, with bread and beer, for which the persons provided received 10 d. per man. In Ireland all that the soldier on march received was 1d. a day more marching money than the English solider; and in Scotland he had 2d. a day more marching money than in England; but either 1d. or 2d. appeared to be a very bad equivalent for a good 10 d. dinner. This disparity showed a very great anomaly, and proved that the troops nearest home were always the best caved for. His fourth point had reference to the case of the former pensioners of the Army, whose petitions had been lately presented to the House, complaining of having suffered great misery and distress during many years, owing to their having agreed to an inadequate commutation of their pensions offered by a warrant issued from the War Office in 1832, which they were, unfortunately, induced to accept, through delusive promises emanating from authority—the warrant respecting which having been cancelled in the following year. This part of his case came with peculiar force before the House, he having himself presented petitions from nine persons who had been unfortunately induced to accept a commutation of their pensions. He regarded the case as a very cruel one; and he was sure his right hon. Friend could not have considered it, or he would have taken some means to meet it. In 1831, an Act was passed offering the immediate payment of four years' pension, with an opportunity of settling in some rich and fertile colony, to such pensioners as chose to resign their life-interest in their pension, and accept that commutation. The soldiers of course thought that the Government could be actuated by none but the justest and most honourable intentions towards them, and thousands of them accepted the offer. He would now beg leave to read
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from Lord Durham's report an extract which he ventured to think would place this subject in a clear and satisfactory light. It was this:—
"The most striking example, however, of the want of system and precaution on the part of Government is that of the old soldiers, termed com muted pensioners, of whom nearly 3,000 reached the colonies in the years 1832 and 1833. A full description of the fate of those unfortunate people will be found in the evidence of Mr. Davidson and others. Many of them landed in Quebec before the instructions had been received in the colony to pay them the sums to which they were to be entitled on their arrival, and even before the Provincial Government knew of their departure from England. Many of them spent the amount of their commutation money in debauchery, or were robbed of it when intoxicated. Many never attempted to settle upon the land awarded to them; and, of those who made the attempt, several were unable to discover whereabouts in the wilderness their grants were situated. Many of them sold their right to the land for a mere trifle, and were left, within a few weeks of their arrival, in a state of absolute want. Of the whole number who landed in the colony, probably not one in three attempted to establish themselves on their grants, and not one in six remain settled there at the present time. The remainder generally lingered in the vicinity of the principal towns, where they contrived to pick up a subsistence by begging and occasional labour. Great numbers perished miserably in the two years of cholera, or from diseases engendered by exposure and privations, and aggravated by their dissolute habits. The majority of them have at length disappeared. The situation of those who survive calls loudly for some measure of immediate relief. It is one of extreme destitution and suffering."
In the following year the Government abolished that system; and the measure adopted as a remedy was to restore their pensions to those men who had returned from the colonics, deducting the four years' pension which they had already received. Now, that might appear an equitable arrangement; but, considering that those unfortunate persons were in some degree the victims of fraud and deception (unintentional fraud, he admitted), he thought that the bargain was too strict. The men who had returned were scattered about, and the probability was that the majority of them knew nothing about the arrangement. What measures the Government had taken to give publicity to their intention of restoring the pensions, he did not know; but he had reason to believe that they were not adequate to the purpose. When warrants of that description were put forward, the utmost publicity ought to be given to them. He contended that those men were not only entitled to the restoration of their pensions, according to the arrangement of 1833, but that they

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were also entitled most unquestionably to the whole of their arrears. His right hon. Friend did not seem anxious to grant those arrears; but he (Sir De Lacy Evans) asserted that, morally speaking, there was no doubt that each of them was entitled to his ten or twelve years of arrears, which would amount to something like 200 l. Unless this matter were attended to, he should continue to bring it before the House upon every opportunity. His fifth point related to the state of the barracks. It referred particularly to the omission again, in this year's estimates, of any vote being proposed for improving the barrack accommodation (especially with regard to the sleeping rooms), so requisite, in many instances, for the health of the troops, and for more suitable and decent quartering of the married non-commissioned officers and privates. He was sure the Government was anxious to contribute to the comfort and well-being of the soldier; but how could they do that unless they inquired into the state of the dwellings, for the dwelling of every human being formed one of the most essential ingredients in his comfort? Not one farthing had been voted this year for the improvement of the barracks, 370 in number, except 5,000 l. for washing-houses, and 5,000 l. for prison-cells. Now, what was the state of the barracks throughout and adjoining the metropolis? The barrack-rooms were about 32 or 33 feet long, by 20 feet broad and 12 feet high. In one room twenty men, including one or two non-commissioned officers, and some of them, perhaps, married, ate, drank, slept, and did everything except their exercises. He asserted, without the fear of contradiction, that the Government increased their pension list more by their neglect of the health of the troops in barracks, than the expenditure necessary for their improvement would amount to. In addition to the inconvenience and unhealthiness, he regretted to say that the barrack-room was often the scene of great immorality and indecency. There was not the smallest provision for married men, who, with their wives, were obliged to sleep in the same room with nineteen other men. The women, indeed, were frequently confined in that room. There was only a space of nine inches between the bottom of the bed and the table on which they dined. The space between the beds was only five inches; but to enable the men to get in and out more readily, two beds were placed together, so that
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they thus got a space of ten inches. The soldier had no means of reading. They might talk of establishing libraries; but how was a man to read in a room where there were nineteen others talking, or amusing themselves in a more boisterous manner? Though he could not say one word against the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, he concluded that the present state of the barracks resulted from the niggardliness of Chancellors of the Exchequer in general, and was not to be attributed to the indifference of the high military authorities. He regarded this as a most serious matter, a most crying evil; and he entreated the noble Lord to cause a general inspection to be made of the barracks throughout the kingdom. It must be quite evident from what he stated, how desirable it was to provide apartments for meals separate from those in which the men slept, and also to provide separate apartments for the sergeants and the married soldiers. Such additional accommodation would be a great benefit to the men, and he hoped to see, a supplemental estimate brought in for the purpose of carrying it into effect. He now came to the sixth subject to which he wished to direct the attention of the House, namely, to "the claim of old Peninsular officers, who have sold their commissions, to the medal to be granted for that war." It had been stated to some of those officers that they were not to receive the medal granted for services during the Peninsular war; and he was desirous to ascertain whether there was any foundation for such a report? He should be very glad to hear that the report was incorrect, and that such officers, notwithstanding their having sold their commissions, would obtain the medal. The expense of the medals to be given to Pentium insular officers who had sold their commissions would not be a matter of the slightest consideration to the Government or the country, whilst they would be looked upon as a most important consideration by those officers; and it ought to be recollected that they were as clearly entitled to them as they were to arrears of pay. He hoped, therefore, that the report to the effect that the Peninsular officers who had sold their commissions were not to receive medals, would be found from the statement of the proper authority to be incorrect. The next point to which he felt it his duty to advert, was "the claim of the retired officers of the line (cavalry and infantry) who, worn out by wounds or broken health,

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occasioned by service with their regiments or on the staff, have reluctantly accepted the retired pay offered by the Warrant of October, 1840; but who, though by seniority sufficiently eligible, find themselves excluded from the last brevet, which, in their case, would have cost the country nothing, although they see this favour extended to their brother officers similarly situated on the retired lists of all the four other branches of the service: namely, the marines, artillery, engineers, and the Navy." He was of opinion that the Government had treated those officers invidiously and harshly in leaving them out, whilst the other branches of the service were not omitted. If an officer had lost a leg, or injured his constitution by military service, he might be prevailed on to accept that retirement, and yet he was omitted in consequence on the occasion of the last brevet. He repeated that it was a harsh measure to deprive those officers of advantages which were extended to other officers; as a proof of which he would state that he held in his hand a list of thirty-five officers who were so excluded, although each of them had served more than forty years, and had received amongst the thirty-five officers fifty-five wounds, amongst which wounds was included the loss of limbs. He conceived that such a body of men were as deserving of enjoying the advantages of the brevet as any other, and he thought it was invidious to exclude them. He would not on that occasion go into the subject to which his eighth notice referred, namely, the selection for the responsible command of regiments, as it was too large a subject to treat properly and at sufficient length on that occasion without taking up too much of the time of the House; but he would remark, that in his opinion it would be impossible to defend the practice of delivering up the responsible charge of a regiment to an officer in consequence of purchase. Seniority was better than purchase, but even seniority ought not to be the paramount claim. The next subject to which he was desirous of directing attention, was the position which general officers of the engineers, artillery, and of the East India Company's army, at present occupied. Why was it that general officers of the engineers, artillery, and of the East India Company's army who may have distinguished themselves by their ability and conduct, should be deemed ineligible for appointments on the general staff, in whatever part of the world their
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services may be available? He believed it would not be denied that the general officers in the Ordnance department were some of the best-instructed portions of the Army; and he would ask if such men were to be considered ineligible for appointments on the general staff? During some of our late operations in India, our army was commanded by an artillery officer (General Pollock) with the greatest success; and yet that gallant officer, who was now, he believed, on his way home, would find on his arrival that he would not be recognised as a general officer. He hoped that the system which now prevailed would not be allowed to affect that gallant officer, and that the desirable objects of ambition should not be shut out from those deserving persons to whom his question referred. He was glad, however, to see the Government employing civilians of the East India Company's service in the service of the State. The cases of Lord Metcalfe and of Sir Henry Pottinger were striking and most successful instances of the advantage of this practice; and he hoped that, the example once set, it, would be followed up. The hon. Member for Montrose thought it was useless to have a brevet at all, and said that our general officers were nearly all too old for active service; but he would ask the hon. Member how the brevet could make these general officers older? He should like to see the promotions of general officers by brevet regulated by selection instead of seniority. There were 305 British general officers in the infantry and cavalry, with ten major generals of the Company's service, who furnished the command in chief and the general staff of (including our British and Indian Army) about 400,000 men. The proportion of general officers in the French Army was much greater, 630 generals furnishing the staff to command an army of 342,000 men. While each general in the British service had the charge of 5,000 or 6,000 men, the French generals had not more than 2,000 under their command, with far less onerous duties. The expenditure on account of the staff in this country was 177,000 l., while in France it amounted to less than 720,000 l. The 305 British officers had also paid about 1,250,000 l. for their commissions; but neither in France nor in any other country that he had over heard of, except this, did the officers pay a farthing for their commissions. He had also to complain that there were regulations as to promotion which were kept secret in the War Office,

715
and their ignorance of which was the cause of excluding many deserving officers from promotion. He understood that Colonel Peyronnet Thompson, an officer of longstanding, and one of the most active and successful contributors to free trade, had been excluded from the operation of the brevet on this account. It appeared that unless a paper was found in the War Office declaring the readiness of an officer to serve, he was deprived of promotion. Now, it might happen that such a paper might be mislaid or overlooked; and he thought so improper a method of regulating promotions, by rules which many officers denied any knowledge of, should be altered. The practice of promoting general officers by seniority, who were entitled to receive the additional allowance of their rank, without any proof of meritorious conduct, or of their fitness to perform such highly responsible functions, was, he thought, objectionable; twenty-nine officers had been excluded from the operation of the Warrant of the 1st of May, nine of whom were Companions of the Bath, several had received wounds, and many were officers who had served during the whole of the last war. Some of those, on the other hand, who had been promoted by the warrant, were officers of the Guards, who had seen very little or notice. With regard to the last notice which he had given, and which referred to the state of education at the Military College at Sandhurst, he had had some conversation, the day after he had given the notice, with his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Liverpool; and he found that his hon. and gallant Friend had already given notice of a Motion for an inquiry into the whole state of the professional education of the Army, with the view that no officers should in future he admitted into the Army without undergoing an examination. At present an officer underwent no examination whatever, though a recruit did. He should, therefore, leave the subject in the hands of his hon. and gallant Friend, who had not only been the Governor of Sandhurst College for several years, but was, perhaps, better qualified than any other officer in the whole Army to conduct such an inquiry; and he only hoped that his hon. and gallant Friend would proceed with it without much delay, as it would confer a great benefit on the Army. There was one point, however, on which he wished merely to touch, and that related to the education of the orphan children of non-commissioned officers. He
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thought that means ought to be furnished by the State for their education. He would observe also that there were 171 cadets at the College of Sandhurst at present; and in order to prevent the necessity of the Secretary at War coming to the House of Commons and asking for a vote of money, they had arranged matters so that almost the whole number were the sons of persons who were able to pay 125 l. a year for the military education of their children. He understood that there were only about twenty of the class which paid 30 l. or 40 l. for their education. He recommended that increased attention should be paid to the state of our naval and military preparations. Before concluding, he begged to read the following extracts from Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations—the great original, and, he presumed, highest, of all authorities on political economy:—
"The art of war," he says, as it is certainly the noblest of all arts, so, in the progress of improvement, it necessarily becomes one of the most complicated among them." "In modern times many different causes contribute to render the defence of society more expensive." But, "it is duly by means of a standing Army that the civilization of any country can be perpetuated or preserved for a considerable time." "States (however) have not always had that wisdom" (that of due attention to military preparation), "even when their circumstances had been such that the preservation of their existence required that they should have it." "That wealth which always follows improvements in agriculture and manufactures, and which, in reality, is no more than the accumulated produce of those improvements, provokes the invasion of all their neighbours." "An industrious, and upon that account a wealthy nation, is of all nations the most likely to be attacked; and, unless the State takes some new measures for the public defence, the natural habits of the people render them altogether incapable of defending themselves." "When a civilized nation depends for its defence upon a militia, it is at all times exposed to be conquered by any barbarous nation which happens to be in its neighbourhood."
He thought those observations not inapplicable at the present time, considering the great alteration likely to be effected in warfare by the means of steam. By the agency of that power, the heaviest batteries could be moved from point to point, and troops could be transported with rapidity. The circumstance was favourable to a neighbouring country, which possessed a larger army than we did; and, under these circumstances, he hoped that the Government had addressed their serious attention to the state of our national defences. Considering the character of the

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policy of a neighbouring country, his own conviction was that adequate measures were not taken in preparation against some unfortunate catastrophe that might occur.
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, if he were to attempt to give a detailed answer to all the subjects which his hon. and gallant Friend had brought under the notice of the House, he should be obliged to trespass on more of their time than they would under any circumstances be willing to afford, for the hon. and gallant Gentleman had touched upon almost every topic connected with the Army. He must say that his gallant Friend's speech was delivered in a friendly spirit to the Government, and with perfect moderation; but he must say, that in making these observations, he thought the hon. and gallant Officer had gone a step too far, for he had found fault with much that existed in the present state of things, without suggesting in what manner the alterations he asked for were to be made, or how he would act were he placed in the same situation in the Government as he (Mr. Fox Maule) filled. His hon. and gallant Friend said he brought forward these matters on the present occasion because he saw a greater disposition to amend the condition of the soldier now than at any former time. If that were so, he would caution the hon. Gentleman not to ride a willing horse, he would not say to death, but until he could go no further. His hon. Friend should recollect that, however desirable it might be to carry out the views which be suggested, the Government must look to other matters as well as to the improvement of the Army. They must first see what the state of the finances was, and consider the claims which the other branches of the service had upon these finances. Every disposition had been shown by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make these improvements so far as was compatible with the state of the public Treasury; and the Government had a perfect disposition to increase the comforts of the soldier, and to make those improvements suggested in his condition, when they could undertake them. The first question which the hon. and gallant Gentleman had introduced, was the soldiers' rations. It was true for some time back a different system prevailed in some of the colonies respecting the soldiers' rations to that which prevailed at home. It was quite true, as the gallant Officer stated, that in some portions of our colonial em-
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pire we were enabled to maintain our troops at a smaller expense than in others. It was deemed necessary, after trying many other schemes—after allowing the regiments to make contracts for themselves—to take a medium from calculations made throughout the colonies as to the expense of rations, and to fix that medium or average as the sum to be allowed for the ration of the soldier, the public making good the deficiency in those colonies where the price of provisions exceeded in proportion the stoppage from the soldiers' wages. He would but say he was convinced that this was in all cases a fair and just arrangement, for the soldier was much injured who served but once or twice in colonies where the provisions were dearer, and spent the greater portion of his service in countries where the stoppage from his pay exceeded the price at which provisions could be bought. This matter had been brought under the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year, and had been under the serious consideration of the Government; but when the House reflected upon the many and important calls upon the attention of his right hon. Friend, and, above all, the numerous demands upon the Treasury, it would not, be was sure, feel surprised that this question had not been yet completely settled. The Government, he would repeat, had every disposition to deal with the question; but it was an extremely difficult one to be dealt with, and required the most minute and careful examination. With reference to the spirit rations, he was happy to say that, in all the colonies, the spirit rations had been done away with, except in Australia and in New Zealand. Neither from Canada nor the West Indies, nor from any of the other colonies in which the change had come into operation, the commutation of the spirit ration into one penny per diem, had there been the smallest dissatisfaction expressed; on the other hand, it seemed to have given pleasure to the soldier, and to have been productive of beneficial results. With reference to Australia and New Zealand, his hon. and gallant Friend had alluded to a circumstance which he thought might as well have been omitted, and that it had been quite as well if concealed from the public. If there had been a slight departure from order, the regiment in which it occurred soon returned to that state of strict discipline for which the British Army had been always remarkable. At the close of last Session,

719
intelligence had reached the Government of what had taken place in Australia, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer at once entered into a correspondence with the authorities there; but owing to the distance, that correspondence had not yet been brought to a close. The disturbance occurred in consequence of the practice being altered with respect to the spirit rations; but as soon as an arrangement could be concluded with the authorities there, the cause of complaint on the part of the soldiery would no longer exist. The military authorities were themselves to blame for what had occurred. They did not give an equivalent for the ration of rum which was withdrawn. The soldiers there had been at liberty to sell their ration of rum, which ration they obtained duty free; and owing to the price of rum there, they made 3½d. by that which was all at once commuted to one penny. In future, he trusted the soldiers in Australia would be placed in the same favourable position as elsewhere. The next point to which his hon. Friend had adverted, was that of pensions. A petition had been presented, signed by nine individuals, who described themselves as pensioners, in which they complained of hardships which they had suffered in consequence of the commutation of their pensions. His hon. and gallant Friend described this as a fraudulent transaction on the part of the Government; but he thought "fraudulent" too harsh an epithet, and undeserved. It certainly was an unfortunate transaction; but that was the most that could be said of it. [Sir DE L. EVANS was quite sure that the Government had not an intention to defraud; but fraud was the result.] The circumstances were these: In 1830, an Act had been passed enabling the Government to commute pensions to four years' purchase. In 1831, 1832, and 1833, some of the pensions of the old soldiers were in this way commuted, the pensioners voluntarily accepting of these commutations, and agreeing to go to the colonies, there to receive tracts of land of a certain amount, which they would be enabled to clear, and to settle their families upon. It was, as he said, an unfortunate arrangement, for it was adopted in 1833 in a very loose manner, so much so, that when the old soldier whose pension had been commuted, arrived in the colonies, no information had been received by the authorities of the commutation of the pension, nor instructions to give them any assistance, owing to the roundabout way in
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which the mail was carried from Halifax to Quebec in those days; and the consequence was, that some of those poor men were driven to the greatest destitution. Some of them died of cholera, others fell into great want, and lived in huts near Toronto, until at last the officer in command of the province was obliged to remove them to a military settlement near Lake Huron, where they were supported until the orders of the Government arrived. Lord Durham remonstrated upon their treatment, and in consequence of it the Government of that period remitted those poor men 4½d. a day of the pensions they had commuted, and some of them were still living comfortably in Canada. He could not conceive how it was that the nine individuals to which his hon. and gallant Friend had alluded, were not included in the grant, for it was extended to Nova Scotia, Now Brunswick, and even to New Zealand. All those pensioners who had then emigrated, and had commuted their pensions, were now in receipt of 4½d. per day, although their pensions originally was only 5d. a day. As far as he could collect information, one of the men to whom the hon. and gallant Officer had alluded, had returned from Canada after remaining there a year and a half; and the other, John Kelly, who had gone to New Zealand, had entered the Royal Navy. Of the other seven he could get no information at present. It would be a lesson to the Government how they should deal with the emigration of military settlers. Old soldiers must be guarded against the consequences of their own rashness and intemperance. A small military colony was at this moment on its way to New Zealand, but under very different circumstances from those which existed in 1832, and under a very different system. The old soldiers (of which it was wholly comprised) went, retaining their full pensions, and under the conduct and superintendence of experienced officers; and it was expected that they would become not only good settlers, but that they would provide a defence for the colony to which they were going for a number of years. He thought such a system must be successful, and that it might be carried to a considerable extent without the smallest risk. It was and would be wholly conducted upon a voluntary principle—there would be perfect freedom on both sides—the Government to give, or the pensioner to accept. The next question upon which he would touch, was the con-

721
finement of the barracks for the soldier. He was quite ready to admit that, considering the progress of civilization, there was much fault to be found with the crowded manner in which the soldiers were kept in some of the barracks. But in many of them there was ample accommodation. The fact of the matter was, they were arriving at a new time, when it was expected that the progress of improvement must not be stayed in any quarter; but half the soldiers in the Army, he was of opinion, had no idea of better accommodation, and were perfectly satisfied to mess and to sleep in the same room. However, these matters would be looked to as speedily as the state of the finances would permit. There were two points on which he wished to remark before he quitted this part of the subject. The first was the very large sum of money which would be necessary to give the amount of barrack accommodation which the hon. and gallant Officer required. The second, that it was not at all times possible, and, if possible, perhaps not quite desirable, to give ample barrack accommodation. For instance, it was sometimes desirable, in a garrison in a town to put the largest number of soldiers in the smallest space; and again, if men were accustomed to all the conveniences and comforts of extensive barracks, they would not without discontent subject themselves to more contracted and narrower abodes when circumstances might render it necessary that they should do so. The Government were, however, disposed to do all they could to provide reasonable accommodation in the barracks; and he saw no good reason why the canteen room might not be converted into a reading room, in which the soldier might profitably engage his leisure hours. With regard to other accommodations, such as having the mess-rooms apart from the sleeping rooms, and having better sleeping accommodation than at present existed, he thought these questions must be left very; much to the financial state of the public resources, though he would remind the House, that, with a view to furnishing baths and washhouses for the soldiers, 5,000 l. had been voted this year, in addition to 17,000 l. voted in former years for that item alone. With regard to the position of the married soldier, he certainly agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend, that if they were to allow a certain number of married women to each company, for the purposes of washing, &c., then they were bound to see that these women were re-
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spectably and decently accommodated. But with reference to those soldiers who married without the consent of their commanding officers, however harsh it might aprear, yet he would be the last to encourage such marriages by affording them any accommodation, either in or out of barracks, which their conduct would not justify their commanding officer in taking upon his own discretion to grant. His hon. and gallant Friend next referred to the 72nd Clause of the Mutiny Act as to the billeting of soldiers. When his hon. and gallant Friend mentioned this subject last Session, he thought then, and he still thought, that it concerned the comfort of the soldiers. He had since made inquiries, and he found that complaints were made rather by civilians than soldiers with respect to billeting. It was a matter which seemed to require less pressing attention than several other topics touched on by his hon. and gallant Friend, for as the construction of railways proceeded, there would be less necessity for having recourse to billeting at all. It was only in Scotland and in Ireland that the system was now adopted to any extent, with a difference, he believed, in the cost between the two countries of 1d. a-day. In Scotland, at least, he did not see how the present system could be continued without being looked into; and yet it was hard to point out a remedy for any evils which might be found to exist under it. The billet law was unknown to the legal authorities in Scotland; they could only define it by saying it was the same as it existed before the Union, though what the law was at the period referred to, they did not take on themselves to lay down. He fully admitted that the allowance of 1d. for the "inhabitant," and 1d. for the use of culinary apparatus, were not sufficient to recompense the civilian for the trouble which he suffered from having soldiers billeted on him. He thought, that very much of the inconvenience of the present system might be alleviated by obliging all the soldiers billeted on a town to go into one house; and he believed that the civil authorities at present found it in general absolutely necessary, for the convenience of the inhabitants, as well as the safety of the soldiers, that one building should be placed at the disposal of the soldiers—any additional expense thereby incurred over and above the billet money being taken out of the marching money of the troops. With respect to the seventh resolution, which related to the exclusion of officers who accepted the retired

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pay offered by the Warrant of 1840, from the advantages of the last brevet, he must say he had not heard on the part of the officers themselves any such complaint as that which his hon. and gallant Friend had urged. These officers were cognizant, when they accepted their retirement, that it barred them from the promotions consequent on any subsequent brevet. So far from compulsion being used, such retirements on full pay were matters of the greatest favour; and he did not think that in future a single instance of such retirement would be permitted except under extraordinary circumstances. As to the sixth resolution, which put forward the claim of the old Peninsular officers who had sold their commissions, to the medal to be granted for that war, he did not believe there existed any intention of withholding medals in such a case. The eighth resolution of his hon. and gallant Friend struck at the very root of the system under which the British Army had so long flourished. And he must say, until he saw the probability of adopting another plan of promotion and reward which would work with more efficiency, he was not prepared to sap and destroy the system which now existed. He should like to see that system fairly, and honourably, and correctly worked; but he, for one, could not see any better principle than that on which it was established. The ninth resolution asked why general officers of the engineers, artillery, and of the East India Company's army, should not be eligible for appointments on the general staff, in whatever part of Her Majesty's dominions their services might be available? He believed it was well known that an officer of the Ordnance had command in Ireland for a considerable period during the absence of his senior; and it also happened to his certain knowledge, that in the garrison of Quebec, such officers as his hon. and gallant Friend alluded to, held the command when the Governor General happened to be away. As to the East India Company's officers not being placed on the general staff, it was obvious that those officers had a far better opportunity of reaping the reward of their services in the East Indies, than they could possibly obtain in this country. Moreover, if the army at home opened its list of rewards to the East India Company's officers, the same rule should be applicable to our officers serving in India, and should not be confined to general officers, but should be extended to the ranks below them. He now
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came to the tenth resolution, in the discussion of which his hon. Friend had observed severely on the system adopted in the late brevet. His hon. Friend said, that junior officers had been unfairly promoted, and that a sort of secret arrangement, of which many officers were ignorant, was entered into, by which, those who were promoted, undertook, if necessary, to serve in their previous rank. Now this, so far from being a secret, was mentioned in naval and military commissions. His hon. Friend adverted to the case of Colonel Thompson. No one could regret more deeply than he did that so honourable and gallant a man should not be included in the list of those I who were promoted; but he could assure his hon. Friend there was neither partiality, favour, nor affection in the matter. Not only Colonel Thompson, but the brother of his noble Friend who sat behind him (Lord J. Russell), was omitted from the list of promotions. The line was to be drawn somewhere; and he believed that the number excluded under the regulations adopted was so small as twenty-five or thirty. But his hon. and gallant Friend complained that amongst those major-generals who were promoted, there were several who were not able to obtain the allowance of 400 l. a year. This was quite true. This was the most expensive part of the promotions which took place by brevet, and that to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer looked with a most searching eye before he gave his consent to the measure. He believed that at first twenty-nine were not included in the list of those who were to receive 400 l. a year. His hon. Friend said that these officers were not included owing to some regulations of his (Mr. F. Maule's), and that he (Mr. F. Maule) afterwards consented to have their names placed on the list. Now, the fact was that all those who had indisputable claims to the allowance of 400 l. were put in possession at once of their title to such an allowance; while the names not inserted in the list were of those on whose claims the department of the Commander-in-Chief, raid that of the Secretary at War, were not prepared at once to decide. The moment the brevet took place, those who thought they had claims to promotion sent forward their cases. Of these, twenty-nine had shown themselves entitled to the rank which they claimed, on their own showing and on due investigation. There were seventeen or nineteen, whose cases were doubtful, and of these he thought that in seven or eight cases pro-

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motion had been permitted; so that there remained at that moment not above nine or ten whose claims under Her Majesty's warrant were in abeyance. His hon. Friend said that the warrant was not sufficiently known. It was dated the 1st of May, 1846. He had come into office early in July in the same year. He found the warrant had been prepared by his right hon. predecessor; but no instructions had been given by him to promulgate it to the Army. He quite admitted that all warrants ought to be made as publicly known to the Army as any document laid before Parliament, for the Army was bound to observe and act upon them. The system as to unattached general officers, which was in force from 1814 to 1818, was found to have made a considerable inroad on the finances; and it went through various modifications until the year 1822, when a warrant was issued as to the pay of general officers, placing them on the footing on which they were at present; and provision was also made that in case of the further promotion of general officers unattached, they should be entitled to the pay of 400 l., but that no officers should receive this addition who had not been regimental lieutenant-colonels for a period of six years. In 1825, 1829, 1830, and 1835, there were modifications of the same principle; and in 1844 Sir Henry Hardinge issued a warrant, which it appeared was not promulgated, but which bore on the special cases to which his hon. Friend referred. The object was to extend the rule laid down as to regimental lieutenant-colonels of regiments for six years; and if his hon. and gallant Friend could show that the officers to whom he had referred were entitled on the ground of a similar length of service to the reward of 400 l., he was sure their cases would receive all due investigation from the Commander-in-Chief. If there were any line to be drawn or distinction to be observed, he thought that would be by far the most liberal; and it had so happened that out of eighty general officers who came under a recent promotion, there were eleven or twelve who could not show any title to come under the operation of the rule. The only other point on which the hon. and gallant Officer had touched, was the system of education in the Army. The present occasion certainly was not a good opportunity to consider that subject, nor in the present state of the House [there were not more than twenty Members in attendance] would it be advisable to enter upon it; but
726
he might state that the attention of Her Majesty's Government had been already drawn to the question of the education of the officers of the Army. It would, indeed, be an act of stultification on the part of any Government to turn their efforts to improve the education of the subordinate ranks of the Army, and to leave that of the officers entirely neglected; because, if there were one way more effectual than another of securing to the officers the contempt of the men, it would be to make the latter feel that they knew more of their profession than those who commanded them. His noble Friend at the head of the Government and the Commander-in-Chief had been in communication on this subject; and he was quite sure no time would be lost by those high authorities in adopting some test of education, such as an examination of the officer when he joined the Army and he (Mr. F. Maule) was not quite sure it would not be desirable to have some further test, in the form of another examination, when the officer came to be promoted to some higher rank. This was, however, an extremely complicated and very important question; and he hoped it would be enough for him to state that it was not lost sight of by Government, but that, on the contrary, it had been made matter of communication between the noble Lord the Member for London and the noble Duke at the head of the Army. The hon. and gallant Officer further remarked on the state of education among the children of our soldiers, and stated there should be some provision for the education of the sons of non-commissioned officers and privates; but he forgot that the Royal Military Asylum was entirely set apart for that object. Children of different classes were elegible for admission: first, the orphans of non-commissioned officers and men killed in action; secondly, the orphans of non-commissioned officers and privates; next, children who had lost their fathers; in fact, the institution was entirely appropriated to the offspring of those soldiers who had served their country in some capacity or other. In addition to it there was the Royal Hibernian School, at Dublin, open to the children of soldiers in a similar way; and there was no doubt but that that establishment, and the asylum, might be increased as far as the exigencies of the Army required, so as to meet all proper cases, and thus there would be an ample system of education provided for a very considerable number of children. The

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subject could not fall into better hands than those of the hon. and gallant Officer opposite (Sir H. Douglas). He knew the attention he had paid to the examinations at Sandhurst. He believed that institution might be made more available than it was; and he would not throw any obstacle in the way of the hon. and gallant Officer, if, after what had passed, he thought it right to raise a discussion on this subject. As to the last remark which had fallen from the hon. and gallant Officer (Sir De Lacy Evans), with respect to carrying on the military administration of this country, so as to give protection to its best interests, he was quite sure the mind of Government was fully turned to the necessity of improving our defences at home and abroad; and until it should be shown those interests had been neglected by them, he entreated the House to place that confidence in them which all the measures they had already adopted proved them to have merited.
COLONEL LINDSAYagreed in much that had fallen from the hon. and gallant Officer as to the condition of the soldier. The wives of soldiers were said to be lodged in the barracks in London, but there was room only for those of the sergeants. The barrack-rooms were so crowded that it was impossible the men could be in such health as to prove efficient for the public service. Instead of 500 cubic feet, which was considered the proper space to be allowed for each man, he had found 351 in one instance, and 330 in another. He was told the soldiers felt that languor in the morning which was produced by breathing an impure atmosphere during the night. Married soldiers could nowhere obtain lodgings under 1s. 6d. a week; in most towns 2s. or 2s. 6d. was the charge, which they must pay out of the 4s. which remained after deducting the price of their rations. They were often, therefore, reduced to the greatest distress. He had known instances in which they had denied themselves meat, and lived upon bread and had spirits, that they might save their wives from starving. They starved themselves rather than get into debt and be reported to their commanding officer. The limited enlistment would reduce the number of married men in the Army. It would be well, therefore, to make provision for the accommodation of a certain number of married men with their wives in barracks, free of expense. He thought advantage ought also to be taken of their position to induce the married men to de-
728
vote a certain period of their weekly or monthly pay for the purpose of providing, in case of their deaths, that their widows should not become a burden on the parishes to which they belonged. There was also another circumstance which pressed with great hardship on the soldier, namely, that having such a limited amount of pay, although sufficient for the ordinary routine of life, the funeral expenses of his wife and children, if he happened to lose them—which expenses were equal in amount to those paid by civilians, being 1l. 12 s. in case of a child, and 3l. in case of a wife—often threw him into debt for two years afterwards.
MR. HUMErose to defend his conduct from some remarks that had been made upon it with respect to the brevet of last year. On that occasion be had made objections to the brevet, because it would increase the inefficient staff of general officers at a time when they had a general officer for every regiment, as an admiral for every ship. He was quite glad to find, therefore, that one-half of the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster's speech had been directed to show how injuriously this very brevet to which he (Mr. Hume) had objected, had operated on the interests of the Army. He had always objected to the expense of the staff, or the inefficient service of the Army, as it might be termed; but he had over deprecated the manner in which the private soldier was paid; and the hon. and gallant Officer would find, thirty years ago, he had advocated an increase of pay to the men in the ranks. He was of the same opinion still, and be hoped it would be seen by the returns, which might be shortly expected, that attention had been paid to making the men comfortable in barracks. It was quite true, as stated by the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel Lindsay), that soldiers, instead of being refreshed, often arose in a state of languor from bad air, and would take it as a favour to be allowed to sleep out of doors. If the useful career of a soldier were generally terminated with fifteen years' service, he believed there must be some cause for so brief a period of activity; and he thought much of it might be attributed to the manner in which the men were accommodated. The hon. and gallant Officer stated, that the expense of a general officer was less in the French than in the English Army. Why, the fact was, that our really effective service cost about 4,000,000 l., while our non-effective or in-

729
efficient army cost about 2,000,000 l., being 50 per cent of the whole expense of the efficient troops. By the late brevet, the inefficient staff kept up by patronage and mismanagement had received another increase. The period of service to entitle officers to be placed on the staff was quite disproportioned when compared with that in the French army; and he wished to place our officers on the same footing. In the French service, no officer could retire on quarter pay until he had served twenty years, nor half-pay till after twenty-four years; and they required a full service of thirty-three years before he could receive his full pay. In England, on the contrary, he had known men retire on half-pay after one day's service; and there were hundreds who had never done an actual day's service at all, and still were in receipt of their pay. Every one of the resolutions before the House should have been separately discussed. With respect to the general officers of the Company's army, he could only say he held them to have been most unfairly treated; and they had, in his opinion, no such thing as a full or fair proportion of their rewards of the service, as had been stated. The native army in India amounted to 332,684 men; the Europeans belonging to the Company's service being 11,115, making together 343,000 in the Company's service, besides 27,000 in the Queen's service. In Bengal there were five generals belonging to the Company's service, in Madras three, in Bombay two, in all ten; whilst the general officers in the Queen's service amounted to no less than nine—two in Bengal, two in Madras, and one in Bombay; besides four at other places, making one general officer to every 3,000 men. He disapproved of the excessive cost of the British staff; in France the staff did not bear the same large proportion of the military expenses as in this country, whilst the dead weight did not amount to more than one-fifth. With respect to military education, he hoped that Government would adopt a more extensive system than had been proposed. If the men were to be educated, whilst the education of the officers remained defective, the inevitable consequence would be, that the men would despise their superiors. He rejoiced that some steps were at length being taken to improve the military system of this country. In spite of the reflections which had been cast upon the public course he had felt it to be his duty to take, he had always admitted that we must keep up a
730
larger proportion of military force than would otherwise be necessary, as we were in presence of foreign Powers which maintained such immense standing armies. If he had ever objected to portions of the expenditure on this head, it was because he thought the particular branch of expenditure useless or noxious, or the amount of it too large for the service on account of which it was to be incurred.
MR. WILLIAMSthought the harmony prevailing amongst the military men in that House was most extraordinary, in respect to the alleged inadequacy of the rewards for all ranks of the service. He would only beg hon. Gentlemen to observe, that the amount devoted to half-pay and pensions in the British Army was as large as in the French Army, though the latter consisted of more than 400,000 men, and ours only of 130,000; he found that the amount to be voted on that head during the present year was to be 2,168,000 l. Gentlemen might be aware that it was not at all uncommon in this country for persons to be promoted to the rank of general officers who had seen no more service than was to be seen in marching from St. James's to the Tower, carrying no weapon more formidable than an umbrella.
Subject at an end. No question was put on the gallant Officer's Resolutions.

SUPPLY—THE SLAVE TRADE.
CAPTAIN PECHELLreferred to the statement made by the hon. Secretary for the Admiralty in bringing forward the Navy Estimates. He wished to hear some statement made with respect to the progress which had been made in the abolition of the Slave Trade At present we had thirty-four ships with 4,000 seamen on the coast of Africa, and yet no statement whatever had been made as to the distribution of the squadron, and the degree of success attained in the object for which those vessels were employed. We had more vessels on the coast of Africa than on the Brazilian, West Indian, or North American stations. On the West Indian station we had diminished the number of our cruisers so much, that only eight were left; on the Brazilian station, including the River Plate, we had only thirteen. When so large a squadron was maintained on the coast of Africa for a particular object, in co-operation, as they were told, with the ships of the United States and France, it did seem most extraordinary that not one word had been said, or one document ever produced,

731
to give any information as to the manner in which this object was carried out. France had no treaties for the abolition of the Slave Trade with any foreign Power, except perhaps with Sweden or Russia; and the United States had none at all. He could not understand how British ships were acting with ships of those Powers against vessels of nations with whom we had treaties. How did we manage, in company with a ship of France or the United States, when chasing or capturing a vessel of Brazil, or Spain, or of any other Power with which we had a treaty? The hon. and gallant Member then complained that the prize money of the officers and men on the African station was absorbed by the enormous charges of Vice Admiralty courts; and he instanced the case of a vessel called the Diana, condemned at the Cape of Good Hope, having been captured by Her Majesty's ship Mutine. The proceeds of the sale were 539 l., and the expenses of condemnation and sale were 273 l., leaving for the captain and officers only 285 l. Amongst the items charged was one of 60 l. for breaking up the vessel, and there was a charge of 5l. 11 s. for handing over the balance to the Admiralty. He hoped the Secretary for the Admiralty would note these facts.
MR. WARDsaid, that no intimation had reached the Admiralty that any case of difficulty had arisen out of the operations of the three squadrons—British, French, and Americans, employed on the African station. No joint captures, he believed, had taken place. The squadrons were employed at different points, and each was guided in stopping slavers by treaties separately made with various Power. With respect to the proceedings in the Admiralty Court relative to the condemnation and sale of prizes, not a single complaint had reached the Admiralty; and in confirmation of his declaration on that point, he would refer to his hon. and gallant Friend near him. If any case of hardship should be brought under the notice of the Admiralty Board, every pains would be taken to insure the officers and men employed on the African station—of whose conduct it was impossible to speak in terms of too warm commendation—to the fullest extent the reward to which they were eminently entitled for their exertions. The Admiralty had done everything possible to render the service on the African station lighter and less dangerous than it used to be. No ship could now remain on the station longer than two
732
years; and the average period of service was eighteen months. Steamers, also, were constantly occupied in conveying to the squadron supplies calculated to promote the health of the crews, and to mitigate the severity of the service. Still further to protect the health of the crews, which had been found to suffer, particularly when vessels proceeded up the African rivers, Sir Charles Hotham had issued a stringent order to prohibit our men from being employed in that manner except in cases of extreme emergency.
House in Committee.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
MR. WARDmoved that the sum of 42,270 l. be granted to Her Majesty for wages to artificers, &c., employed in our establishments abroad.
MR. WILLIAMSsaid, that from observing that the Navy Estimates increased year after year, he had been induced to look into them generally, and, by dividing the estimates for the last fourteen years into two parts, he found that they produced the most extraordinary results. For the first seven years the expenditure was 7,900,000 l.; in the last seven years 14,900,000 l., being a total in fourteen years of 22,800,000 l. for wages and salaries in dockyards and naval stores. They had now, in line of battle-ships, frigates, and steamers, a Navy with which, if properly manned, no nation of the world could compete; the country ought to be satisfied as to the mode in which these vast sums were expended, he believed there had been a great waste of money in continuing to build ships on plans which were the subjects of much controversy among naval and scientific men; the estimates were increasing year after year; a new system altogether ought to be adopted. He thought the abolition of the College of Naval Architecture by the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) during his administration of the Admiralty a grave error. He had no hope, in making these observations, that he would be enabled to effect any reduction in the amount of the estimate under consideration, and he should not, therefore, oppose the vote.
VISCOUNT INGESTREwould not attempt on this occasion to discuss those multifarious topics affecting the well-being of the service, which had been introduced and forced upon the notice of the House by hon. Gentlemen, in the course of the debates upon the various estimates which had been agreed

733
to. He was not prepared to state any decided approval of the conduct pursued by those in authority in particular instances; but he could not deny himself the satisfaction of stating that, from what he had observed, he was convinced the present Board of Admiralty were seriously and steadily endeavouring to accomplish the primary object of their legislation—the amelioration of the condition of the seamen in the Royal Navy. So long as they pursued that course in the spirit in which they had commenced, they should have his best and heartiest support. He gave them every credit for the manner in which they had proceeded in the promotion in the dockyards; and he trusted that they would have the fortitude, apart from every political consideration, to adhere to those principles in this respect by which, hitherto, their patronage and the rewards it was in their power to bestow, had been directed. He thought that the strictures of the hon. Member for Coventry upon the mode adopted in the building of ships were in a great measure justified. As early as 1832 he had pointed out the impolicy of the appointment of a Surveyor of the Navy, as the party to be held responsible for such defects as might be found in the ships. He had shown that the education of that gentleman had not been of a sufficiently nautical scientific character to fit him for such a post; and, in reply to the remarks which he then made, the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), then in office, declared that it was too soon to pronounce an opinion before any result was before them, and that he (Sir J. Graham) would rest the appropriateness of such an appointment upon the future completeness of the ship Vernon, then in process of construction. He was quite willing to judge by that experiment. He would acknowledge that the Vernon was a good ship, and carried her guns well; but it had been proved that, in addition to many minor faults which might be detected in the vessel, the expense of building had been unnecessarily great. The Admiralty, it seemed to him, were not proceeding upon any defined plan. They had all sorts of models on the stocks; but it was yet unknown which experiment had failed, or which had been successful. A great mistake had been made in dispensing with the services of the students of the School of Architecture. They were instructed at the expense of this country, and had been led to suppose that, after the recommendation
734
which had been made to the Admiralty, they would have been permitted to fill the superior class of appointments in the dockyards as they became vacant. They had, however, been very badly treated, and even persecuted; and he was glad to see that they had demonstrated the error which had been made when their knowledge and skill were rejected by the Government. He wished to know what was being done with that class of ships which were directed to be built after the model of the Albion? A letter, he believed, had been addressed to the Admiralty, stating that, in consequence of the excessive breadth of the Albion, she had failed, or, at any rate, had not answered those expectations which had been formed. It was desirable that the real state of the case should be understood; and that, if she had failed, the construction of those ships about to be built on the same model, should be stopped. He had not yet seen any improvement in the practice of the dockyard builders. They seemed to be altogether uncertain when they commenced how they should end. Her Majesty's yacht, the Victoria and Albert, was often referred to as reflecting great credit upon the dockyards; but, in fact, she was a failure, and it was only after trying all sorts of nostrums, that she had at last attained a hap-hazard success. The public were altogether ignorant of the exact, results of the experiments which had been undertaken by the Admiralty in the construction of our war ships. He had never yet seen the report of Rear-Admiral Sir Hyde Barker, who commanded the first experimental squadron. Sir W. Symonds had made his report; but if his ships were good ships, it was very doubtful if greater praise could be accorded than consisted in saying they were not inferior to those with which they had been compared. He believed that if officers were to give the same report publicly, which they gave of their ships privately, the present state of things would not long be permitted to exist. He would now come to the question of the steam navy; and would first of all observe, that he should like to see the reports of the Retribution and the Terrible. Of the latter, it had been stated, on very good authority, that she was able to make good way in good weather, and had shown great capabilities in sailing when her steam was not required; but he should like to see the reports that had been made as to both these vessels. There was one point on which he here felt

735
bound to make a remark or two, and that was, on the subject of naval construction. He would say, without fear of contradiction, that most of the steamers which had been built by the present Surveyor of the Navy, had not answered the purpose for which they were built; and he had no hesitation in saying, that there could be found numerous scientific men who were able to build better ships than those which now existed. The late Board of Admiralty, in 1844, appointed a Committee to judge of naval architecture, who had made an analysis, from which much good in the way of advancing the science was expected; and he should like to know if there were any objections to the production of the report of that Committee. The late Admiralty also appointed a Committee of Reference for testing and examining this most important question. At the beginning of the Session, he had asked the hon. Gentleman whether he would object to the production of this report; and he was subsequently informed that it was not desirable to make it public, chiefly on account of foreign nations. If the same reason still existed, he should not ask for that report; but he hoped it would lead to the formation of a permanent scientific body, whose duty it should be to look over all plans beforehand, to ascertain what weight vessels would carry, what armament, and what number of men, and who should be capable of detecting errors in plans, as well as to make plans themselves. Holding, as he did, these views, he hoped the Admiralty would consider whether the duties of the Surveyor of the Navy should not be revised. The duties of that officer he considered more than one man could do. If he had to be constructor of ships, and of all that depended on that duty, he had not time to do what the name of his office implied what he ought to do—thoroughly survey the ships of the Navy. In consequence of this, vast expense had been incurred by laying up ships in ordinary, and which went to decay from not being sold in time. Ships had been disposed of at rates much below what they would have brought had they been sold earlier, when they were of much greater value. Before he sat down, there was one point to which he wished to direct the attention of the Admiralty. About three years ago, he asked the gallant Admiral the Member for Ripon, if it was the intention to send any ships to survey the colony of New Zealand? The answer was, that a ship for
736
that purpose would be sent out as soon as circumstances permitted. Since that time the colony had greatly increased in importance, and its trade was much enlarged; and he might state that a fine ship, the Osprey, was lost in that quarter, in consequence of one headland being mistaken for another. He begged, therefore, before resuming his seat, to call the attention of the Admiralty to this important subject.
MR. WARDbelieved, that on the subject of shipbuilding, it would be found there were as great differences of opinion as on religious questions; but, before going into these points, he might state, in reply to questions that had been put, that the Princess, one of the ships of the Albion class, was to be considerably altered and improved, and that, among other alterations, she was to be reduced two feet in breadth. As to the best mode of building ships, no doubt, in many cases, the advantages and disadvantages had been pretty much as the noble Lord had described them; he hoped there would in future be a better system. The noble Lord had inquired whether there was any intention of establishing a School of Naval Architecture. It was not intended to establish such a school; but the intention was to introduce a better system into the dockyards, and by giving the boys a good elementary education, and selecting two or three of the best boys yearly, instructing them in mathematics, and placing them in the dockyards at Plymouth and other places, it was thought that a school of naval architecture might be dispensed with.
SIR C. NAPIERrepeated his objections to the Aboukir, and that class of vessels which were finishing at Plymouth. The Albion was a most unfit man-of-war. Sir Hyde Parker had told him (Sir C. Napier) that when the Albion had been ordered to bear up and form in the lee line, she rolled so tremendously that she nearly carried away her masts. [Admiral DUNDAS: No report of this was made by the Admiral.] Then the Admiral did not do his duty. The Exmouth, he had heard, was so far advanced, that it was too late to stop; and so sure as she went into action, and attempted to manœuvre, it would be the same with her as with the Albion, and the Superb, which had likewise the character of a bad man-of-war. He therefore could not help saying that it was wrong in the Admiralty to expend one sixpence upon the Aboukir or the Exmouth. At present we

737
were going on with five three-decked ships finishing on the stocks without knowing whether they would be fit for the purposes for which they were intended. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty had informed the Committee that the 92-gun ship was to be altered; but he had heard odd stories about some of those ships. Certain plans had been submitted to the Committee of Construction to make them better ships. The Surveyor had, however, represented to the Board of Admiralty that he could suggest a plan for altering those ships. He hoped the hon. Secretary would tell the House whether the plan of the Surveyor had been required to be submitted to the Committee of Construction, and approved by them or not; and whether the Surveyor's plan, or the Committee of Construction's plan, was to be carried into execution. The duty of the Surveyor of the Navy was not to build ships. If they allowed one man to influence these questions, and to propose a plan, he would see no good in any plan but his own. If certain sets of men were to be allowed to build ships according to their own notions, they would still have classes of ships which were deficient. He would tell the Secretary to the Admiralty what the duty of the Surveyor was; he should let the shipbuilders at Woolwich, at Plymouth, and at Portsmouth, and other places, build ships, and then it should be his duty to check him, examine into their timbers and their iron, and finally ascertain which of the ships sailed the best. That was the proper duty of the Surveyor; and if the Admiralty kept him to that duty we should have more efficient ships built than we now had. He wished to know whether the Secretary to the Admiralty had any objection to lay on the Table copies of the reports made by the Surveyor upon all the plans that had been submitted to him by the different shipbuilders in this country during the last three years; if not, he would, in a few days, make a Motion on the subject. The noble Lord (Lord Ingestre) stated that there was evidently such a desire to bring only one description of ships into the service that every impediment was thrown in the way of completing those ships, which were intended to be built on a different construction. He (Sir C. Napier) agreed with the noble Lord in this opinion; and as a proof of it he would just remind the Committee of what occurred in the case of the Dublin. That vessel was ordered to be repaired; and the cost of reparation was
738
estimated at between 30,000 l. and 40,000 l.; but after much delay it was finally repaired, and only 10,000 l. was expended on her. That was a strong instance of the manner in which it was endeavoured to get rid of ships that were built in certain ship-yards. Another instance was that of the Vindictive, which was a ship built by Mr. Blake, of Portsmouth. That ship was sent up the river in order to get it out of the way, and there it remained for ten years, though on two occasions it had been commissioned and favourably reported on. As to the Queen's yacht, he agreed with the noble Lord (Lord Ingestre), that the expense of it had been tremendous. No one would be more gratified than himself to see Her Majesty possess a yacht that should be capable of affording every possible convenience; but the people, when they should come to know what had been expended on the one that was even yet unfinished, would be perfectly astounded. And, after all, what was she? The Queen of England when she should go on board would be stuffed down into a well cabin; and if she wished to look out of the stern cabin windows, she would be obliged to get upon a chair. If the vessel over should be finished, he was sure it would never be for the Queen of England's use; for Her Majesty would find it absolutely necessary to have a new yacht, and he should readily give his vote on any such occasion for building her a new one.
CAPTAIN GORDONwas desirous of knowing what was the nature of the responsibility which attached to the Committee recently appointed to examine plans for the construction of ships submitted to the Board of Admiralty? He had no objection to the appointment of such a Committee; but he did trust that the Admiralty had determined to adhere to their recommendations and reports. It now appeared that the Admiralty had come to the determination to proceed with two ships of the Albion class; now he (Captain Gordon) wished to know whether that determination was arrived at in consequence of the recommendation of the Committee of Construction? Unless that Committee were to have some responsibility, it had much better be done away with altogether. There was another subject which he could not refrain from alluding to—he meant the late School of Naval Architecture. He never should cease to regret the discontinuance of that school. He thought it a disgrace to this great maritime country that there should not exist

739
an institution of that description. Indeed it was now more than ever required, since the organization of the men at the dockyards into a sort of naval artillery; for how would those men become qualified either to act themselves, or to instruct others, unless there existed a school at which they might obtain the necessary knowledge?
ADMIRAL DUNDAS, in reply to the gallant Captain's question respecting the responsibility of the Committee of Reference, said, that the duty of that Committee was to act as the advisers of the Board of Admiralty; but the Board were not necessarily bound to follow implicitly the recommendations and suggestions of the Committee. With regard to the Admiralty having at length determined to proceed with the two vessels of the Albion class, he begged to observe that the board was very much guided as to the course they should take by the expense that would be incurred. Now, in the case of those two vessels, the expense incurred was immense—not less than 20,000 l.; and this might be supposed to require consideration before proceeding. But in the case of the Princess Royal, the expense already incurred was only 5,000 l., and in that respect, therefore, no difficulty could be supposed to exist.
Vote agreed to.
On the Vote that the sum of 1,556,498 l. be granted to Her Majesty for defraying the expense of naval stores, for the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet, &c., for the year 1847–8, being proposed,
MR. HUMEwished to know whether any one could get up in that House and say whether, since the abolition of the Naval School of Architecture, the greatest abuses had not arisen in the building of ships? Since the date of Sir William Symonds' appointment as Surveyor of the Navy, no less than 22,000,000 l. had been expended in building ships for the Navy. If he was rightly informed, not one ship built by Sir William Symonds could carry her guns on the lines laid down for her floatage. Before the building of the Albion was completed, and before any trial could possibly have taken place, half a dozen of the same class were laid down at a cost of at least half a million of money. When the Vernon was alluded to in that House, Sir J. Graham promised that she should be fairly tiled before any other ships of the same class were laid down. How had that promise been adhered to?
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The character of the Navy had been destroyed by the proceedings which had taken place with respect to the building of ships for Her Majesty's service. If something were not done without delay by those who were responsible for the efficiency of the Navy as to the rules for the construction of ships, he should certainly bring the subject before the House. If he had not been misinformed, the report of the Committee on Naval Construction condemned the system of shipbuilding adopted by Sir William Symonds from beginning to end. He therefore wished to ask his hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty what was the nature of the Report of the Committee on Naval Construction on the present state of the Navy? The Admiralty would not do its duty to the country, if it did not give the fullest information on the subject.
CAPTAIN BERKELEYhad not risen to defend the shipbuilding of Sir W. Symonds; but he could not sit still and hear that gallant officer condemned in the way in which he had been. He had belonged to three several Boards of Admiralty, namely, that of Sir James Graham, that of the Earl of Minto, and the present Board; and to each of these boards reports most favourable of the character of Sir W. Symonds' ships had been presented. An hon. Gentleman had challenged any naval officer to point out a ship built by Sir W. Symonds which was fit to go to sea. He could mention several of the finest ships in the service built by that officer; for instance, the Vestal and the Cleopatra. When the Vernon was first sent to sea, under the command of Sir Francis Collier, that officer made the most favourable reports to the Admiralty respecting her. He admitted, at the same time, that Sir W. Symonds might have failed in the construction of his line-of-battle ships. The Committee on Naval Construction had suggested that part of the plan of Sir W. Symonds should be modified, as they conceived that in some respects he carried certain principles too far; and the present Board of Admiralty intended to act on that suggestion.
VISCOUNT INGESTREcomplained of the system of mystification and falsehood which prevailed in our dockyards, by which the work done to one ship was charged to another, so as to prevent the discovery of the real expense incurred on each ship.
SIR C. NAPIERsaid, that he should propose, as an Amendment, that the vote

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be reduced from 1,556,498 l. to 1,520,000 l. He wished to observe, that when he spoke in such condemnatory terms of Sir W. Symonds' ships, he only alluded to the line-of-battle ships.
CAPTAIN PECHELLthought that the country was in some respects indebted to the services of Sir W. Symonds. He had had occasion to complain of that gallant officer, and of the construction of some of his ships; but he believed that he had recently rendered the State some service. They had formerly sent a class of vessels to the coast of Africa, the well known ten-gun brigs—a class that had been actually condemned by the House. Now, they had a very superior class of vessels for that service. During the late American war, they had suffered great privation and much annoyance from the want of vessels sufficiently fast sailers to be able to catch the American ships; and he himself had suffered, during the blockade of one of the American ports, from the want of a sufficiently fast-sailing vessel. Now, the improvement in the sailing qualities of British ships of war, was a great benefit to the service; and as to the condemnation that had been passed upon some of our ships of the line, let them look to the opinion of the Prince de Joinville, who had pronounced the British to be eminently successful in the construction of steam vessels; whilst the condemnation passed by him upon two of the French ships, the Hercule and the Gemappes, was far beyond anything that could with justice be said of any British vessel of the line. If therefore the gallant Admiral pressed the House to a division, he certainly should not vote with him, thinking, as he did, that Sir W. Symonds had done some good service to the country. Before sitting down he should beg to ask the hon. Secretary to the Admiralty what course had been adopted with respect to a very valuable invention produced by Mr. Alfred Jeffrey, and applicable to the caulking of ships—he meant the marine glue? He understood that that very valuable invention had been applied to the purpose of caulking the decks of several of our ships that were sent to the coast of Africa and other hot climates, and they had been very much benefited. The necessity, which was well known to exist hitherto, of having the decks caulked every three years, had been obviated; and he believed that if the material were brought into use throughout the Navy generally, a saving of from 20,000 l. to 50,000 l. a year
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might be effected. But as to the advantages to those on board the vessels sent to warm climates, every one at all conversant with the subject must be aware of the excessive annoyance arising from the pitch used in the ordinary caulking of the decks becoming soft and clinging to the feet; and when the comfort of those who were obliged to sleep upon the deck was considered, the advantage arising from the use of the marine glue must be evident. He trusted that the hon. Secretary to the Admiralty would tell the House what course was about to be adopted with reference to the material, and also whether the gentleman who invented it was to be rewarded.
MR. WARDsaid, that the results of the experiments made with the marine glue had been extremely satisfactory; and he hoped that the gentleman who had invented it would have his claims favourably considered by the House at some future time.
SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, that Sir W. Symonds had had nothing to do with building the iron steam boats. But as to the question before the House, he would not put them to the trouble of a division, if hon. Members were opposed to it on the ground that it implied an attack on Sir W. Symonds. It was not upon such a ground that he wished to divide; and he would withdraw his Amendment if the hon. Secretary of the Admiralty would give him any hope that a Committee would be granted for the purpose of examining into those matters of which he complained.
MR. WARDcould give no hope of the kind. He should only say that every possible diligence would be exercised by the present Board of Admiralty, and that the whole mode of proceeding would be revised.
SIR C. NAPIERwould not divide the House.
On the Vote of a sum not exceeding 22,839 for medicines and medical stores,
CAPTAIN PECHELLcalled the attention of the House to officers taken into the Haslar Hospital for lunatics. It appeared that from the year 1818 to 1831 a system had prevailed of impounding half the pay of those unfortunate officers by way of compensation for their keep in the hospital; so that whether they had 5s. or only 3s. a day, the half was alike kept back, to the great hardship of their families. In 1831 it was at length discovered that 1s. 6d. a day was enough to keep each individual; and he (Captain Pechell) brought the case of Lieutenant Bevan before the House.

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Restitution of the difference during the period of his confinement was ordered to be made; and an order to that effect (directing the reimbursement of the excess), dated the 11th January, 1832, was sent down from the Board of Admiralty. But on the 20th of January, and before the order was obeyed, a fresh order from the Board was sent down countermanding the first, and stating as the reason, that if restitution of the excess were made in the case of Lieutenant Bevan, there would be no fewer than ninety similar claimants who would expect a similar reimbursement. Now, on looking over the list, he found that only forty instead of ninety similar claims could be made, and the whole sum required to repay them would not exceed 3,000 l. This was one of the few cases in which he had to complain of Sir J. Graham's Board of Admiralty, and he trusted the matter would be remedied.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 725,788 l. be granted for half-pay to officers of the Navy and Royal Marines.
CAPTAIN PECHELLwished, before the vote was sanctioned, to draw the attention of the House briefly to the case of the masters, paymasters, and pursers of the Royal Navy. He felt the necessity of getting through the Navy Estimates that night, and he would therefore be very brief in his observations. The injustice done these officers had been frequently brought forward. The masters were always by the captain's side in the hour of danger: they shared all the responsibility and risk; but when honour or emolument was in the way, they were always passed over. All they desired was, that their rank should be amalgamated with that of the lieutenants. In 1834, the purser's sea-profits were reduced without there being any correspondent advantages given to them; and a Committee of flag-officers had reported that there should be a retired list. This Committee recommended it should be limited to fifty, but only thirty were appointed. Some explanation ought to be given of the reason why this recommendation was not carried out.
CAPTAIN BERKELEYassured the Committee that the masters in the Navy were a most valuable class of officers. By good conduct and bravery they could attain the highest rank; but he believed it would be an injury to the service to remove them from the class to which they belonged.
SIR C. NAPIERdid not think the
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masters in the Navy were in their proper position. A boy, who had been midshipman, on being made junior lieutenant, became the senior officer of the master immediately, a practice extremely hard upon the master. They ought, in his opinion, to be promoted to the rank of commander.
Vote agreed to.
The House resumed. Report to be received.
House adjourned at a quarter past One o'clock.