Commons Sitting of 23 June 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1°. Sugar Duties.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several hon. Members, from an immense number of Places, complaining of Refusal to grant Sites for the Building of Churches for the Free Church of Scotland.—By Mr. Raikes Currie, from Inhabitants of the Town of Northampton, for the introduction into all Railway Bills of such Provisions as may appear sufficient for securing the Observance of the Sabbath according to the Commandment.—By Sir Robert Harry Inglis, from Inhabitants of the District of St John's, Fulham, for Repeal of Maynooth College Act.—By Lord Charles Manners, from Dean and Clergy of the Deanery of Framland, in the County of Leicester, against the Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, but providing for the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.—By Sir Hugh Campbell, from the Presbytery of Lauder, against the Abolition of the existing Religious Tests in the Universities of Scotland.
904
—By Mr. Poulett Scrope, from New Sarum, for rating Owners of Small Tenements to the Poor Rates in lieu of Occupiers.—By Mr. Christie, from several places in the County of Hereford, for Repeal or Alteration of the Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.—By Sir Thomas Acland, from the Board of Guardians of the St. Thomas Union, for Alteration of the Poor Removal Bill.—By several hon. Members, from various places, for the Suppression of Promiscuous Intercourse.—From Ministers of Lancaster and Chester, for the Abolition of the Punishment of Death.—By Mr. Hume, from Daniel Toner, of Woolwich, alleging Embezzlement at Woolwich Arsenal.

NEW SOUTH WALES—MR. MANNING.
MR. HUMEinquired whether any further information had been received from New South Wales respecting the defalcation of Mr. Manning, the registrar of the court there, and whether the Government had taken any means to repay the creditors on the funds in that court?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that proceedings had already been instituted against the sureties of the defaulting party, and that the sum for which they had rendered themselves liable by bond had been recovered. As for the payment of the charge which might devolve upon the Colony, that was a question of colonial revenue, to be determined in New South Wales.

THE SUGAR DUTIES.
On the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Resolution of the Committee of Ways and Means on the Sugar Duties,
MR. B. ESCOTTcalled the attention of the House to a subject on which there had been a misunderstanding in the House and in the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to make a reduction of the duties on sugar to the amount of 3s. 6d. It subsequently became necessary to bring in a Bill, with the acquiescence of all parties in the House, to continue the sugar duties for one month. The proposition which the right hon. Gentleman first made to the House was, that he would bring in a Bill to continue the sugar duties for one month, not the old duties, but the duties reduced according to the proposition of Government by 3s. 6d. When that proposition was formally made by the right hon. Gentleman, the hon. Member for Montrose suggested that it would be better that the Bill continuing the duties for a month should continue them as they had previously existed, and not with the reduction proposed by Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer at once acquiesced in the proposition of the

905
hon. Member for Montrose, and said he thought it would be better to continue the duties as they had previously existed; but he did not think it necessary to give any reasons to the House for his acquiescence in that proposition. He must say, for his own part, on reconsidering the subject, and hearing the opinions of persons interested in the trade, and those who had the best means of information, and knew the advantage that would be gained, not only by the trade, but by the public, by this reduction of 3s. 6d., they should have the Bill with the advantage of the reduction of duty to 3s. 6d.; and he hoped that no off-hand acquiescence in the proposition of the hon. Gentleman would prevent him from reconsidering the subject, and in this Bill for a month reducing the duties by 3s. 6d.
MR. HUMEexplained, that his motive in making the suggestion, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had acquiesced, was to avoid having a topic introduced which would necessarily open the door for a long discussion on the sugar duties, before the general question had been formally submitted to their consideration. It appeared to be the general desire that there should be but one debate on this question, and that when it arose all the Amendments which were on the book on the subject should be discussed together. With respect to the proposed reduction of 3s. 6d. a cwt., its effect just at the present moment would be to throw that amount into the pocket of the importer, without benefiting the public. He was for the abolition of differential duties on colonial and foreign sugar; but some time must elapse before it could be done, in order to enable the Colonies fairly to compete.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he had postponed the reduction alluded to entirely from considerations of convenience, in respect to the peculiar circumstances in which he had found himself, and thinking it would be more advisable to have the general question discussed altogether at one time; he did not at all agree with the hon. Member for Montrose on the subject.
The Resolution agreed to. Bill ordered to be brought in.
Bill brought in and read a first time.

THE PUBLIC RECORDS.
MR. CHARLES BULLER, in bringing forward the Motion of which he had given notice, respecting the Record Office, said
906
he did not mean to detain the House at any length on the subject of the Resolution, for it was one the importance of which was so obvious as to render comment unnecessary. His object was to procure the appointment of a Select Committee, to consider and report on the best means to provide a general Record Office in which to deposit the public records of England and Wales. A Committee, over which he had presided as chairman, had directed the attention of the House to this important subject on a previous occasion, and had strongly recommended that no time should be lost in providing a suitable office. Those hon. Members who had served with him on that Committee would remember the annoyance to which they were subjected, in having to go about from one place to another in visiting the various receptacles of the State Papers; and, indeed, it must be obvious to all that great inconvenience and disadvantage must necessarily result from having the records of the country distributed through a great many depositories. This consideration was independent of the yet more important one that the documents themselves were exposed to very great danger where they were at present placed. This matter had engaged the attention of the Master of the Rolls, who, in virtue of his office, was charged with the custody of the records, and by whom the subject had been repeatedly brought under the notice of the Treasury. It was unnecessary that he should enter into any detail of the mode in which the correspondence between the Master of the Rolls and the authorities of the Treasury was for a length of time carried on, without anything having been done with a view to the settlement of the question; but he was sure that hon. Members on all sides would concur with him in thinking that the time had arrived when that House should take some step in the matter. Various suggestions had been made from year to year, and amongst others was one to the effect, that in the New Houses of Parliament a compartment of the building should be especially set aside for the reception of the records; but the result of the consideration given to this matter by the Master of the Rolls was, that none of the suggestions offered appeared to conform with his views of the public interests. These were considerations, however, which would come under the special cognizance of the Committee he was moving for, the Members of which, no doubt, would devote their best attention

907
to the subject, and recommend that course which appeared to them the most desirable and the most beneficial for the public. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee.
MR. WILLIAMS WYNNexpressed his concurrence in the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Liskeard, and suggested that the additional duty should be assigned to the Committee of providing for the classifying the records and procuring the publication of such of them as possessed historical interest. This was a task which had been undertaken, in compliance with a vote of that House agreed to as far back (as well as he could recollect) as the year 1821 or 1822; but it was very much to be regretted that the project had not been completed, but remained still in abeyance. It was very little to the honour of the country that such an undertaking should not have been prosecuted to completion; and he trusted that the House would take measures to have the reproach removed. The Scottish Acts of Parliament had been carefully collated, and were published under the authority of the Commission, with the exception of the first volume, which was to contain the introduction; but the work had been suspended for the last ten or fifteen years, which could not but be a matter of regret. He trusted, however, that the publication would be soon resumed, and that the general task of supervising the publication of such of the records as possessed an historic interest would be committed to the charge of some persons of taste and erudition, and in all respects qualified for the task.
MR. PROTHEROEfully approved of the Motion of the hon. and learned Member, and hoped that the Government would perceive the necessity of setting about building a proper Record Office at once. It was little less that a reproach to the state of civilization in this country that so little attention should be paid to this matter. No nation that had a history, and valued it, would be careless or negligent of such documents. They were, in fact, its history. A building should be erected specially and exclusively for the reception of these documents, and they ought to be classified with the utmost care. Something ought, certainly, to be done in this matter, and that too without delay; for the present state of things was positively disgraceful. It might not perhaps be within the knowledge of every hon. Member who
908
heard him; but it was, notwithstanding, the fact, that the riding-house at Old Carlton House was at present the principal, almost the only, place of receptacle for the public records. He would have great pleasure in supporting the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Liskeard, but could not say that he felt equally disposed to favour the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montgomeryshire. They ought certainly to pause before they undertook to publish the records at the public expense, and at all events it would be vain to undertake the task before the documents had been arranged and classified. Moreover, he was inclined to think that it was an objectionable proceeding to impose upon one Committee two classes of duties so dissimilar, and in each case so important.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERthought it would be inexpedient to adopt the suggestions of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montgomeryshire; but the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Liskeard appeared to him to be one, the object of which was exceedingly desirable, and he would accordingly have great pleasure in supporting it. The question of how far it was desirable that all the records should be brought together into one building, or distributed through various departments, was one which he trusted would engage the especial attention of the Committee, who, he hoped, would come to a satisfactory determination, and take care to make proper provision for the preservation of the documents, at the same time that they avoided involving the country in unnecessary expense. Especial care should be taken that no building should be erected that was not in all respects properly adapted for the purpose which was in view, for otherwise unnecessary expenditure to a very large amount would be the result.
MR. C. BULLERobserved that the work which the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wynn) proposed to be done by the Committee was not only alien to its duties, but it was hardly a work to be left to a Committee of that House at all. It was a matter of literary judgment and knowledge, and required to be conducted with the greatest amount of literary and historical taste. He thought a selection should be made of those historical works, and that the public would be better satisfied if the matter were referred to some

909
commission of men conversant on the subject than to a Committee of that House.
Motion agreed to.

SUPPRESSION OF VICE.
MR. SPOONERrose to move, pursuant to the notice he had given, for leave to introduce a Bill for the suppression of trading in seduction and prostitution, and for the better protection of females. He believed the Secretary of State for the Home Department did not intend to make any objection to the introduction of the Bill; and as he dared say no hon. Member would object to the introduction of it, he thought it unnecessary to detain the House by entering into the question. He was sorry to understand from the hon. Member for Montrose that it was necessary to explain the measure to the House, and also to explain why it was that he had presumed to bring forward this Bill. The hon. Gentleman was proceeding with his statement, when
An HON. MEMBERmoved that the House be counted, and there being only thirty Members present,
The House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock.