Commons Sitting of 28 January 1846

Preamble
MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS.—2°. Public Works (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Grove Ferry Farmers' Club, against alteration, and from Shepton Mallett, and Ashford in the Water, for Repeal of the Corn Laws.—From Inhabitants of Birmingham, against Enrolment of the Militia.
House met at twelve o'clock.

RAILWAY BILLS.
MR. GISBORNErose to bring forward the Resolutions of which he had given notice, as follows, and which he read to the House:—
"That the Committee on the Petition for each Railway Bill shall, in every case in which they shall report to the House that the Standing Orders have not been complied with, report further whether in their opinion the Standing Orders ought to be suspended, and whether the parties, under any and what conditions, should be permitted to go on with their Bill.
"That where the said Committee shall be unanimous in such last-mentioned Report, or where only one Member, such Member not being the Chairman, shall dissent therefrom, such Report shall be taken into consideration by the House, without being referred to the Committee on Standing Orders.
"That where more than one Member, or where the Chairman shall be dissentient from such Report, it shall be referred to the Committee on Standing Orders.
"That in every case in which a Railway Bill shall be referred to the Committee on Standing Orders, it shall be permitted either to the promoters or to the opponents of such Bill, to be heard by one counsel or one agent on the points so referred."
He stated that when he had heard the Motion of which the right hon. Baronet opposite, the First Lord of the Treasury, had given notice, for a Select Committee on the subject of Railways, he thought that he might have deferred his present Motion until the Report of the Select Committee should have been submitted to the House; but when he found that, notwithstanding the appointment of that Committee, petitions for Railway Bills were still referred to the Sub-Committees on Private Bills, and thence frequently to the Committee on Standing Orders, he had no alternative but to bring forward his Resolutions without delay. On the preceding evening, the Select Committee on Petitions for Private Bills had been appointed; and, in justice
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to the Members who comprised that Committee, he must say, that forty-two more active, able, and intelligent men of business could not have been selected from that House. Four Chairmen also had been chosen; and of those Gentlemen it was but justice to add, that more diligent, more experienced, more impartial, and more honourable men could not have been selected to discharge the important duties which they would have to perform. But what was the nature of these Committees on Petitions for Private Bills, and what were the duties which they had to discharge? For the most part, they were measurers of lines and readers of advertisements; their object being to ascertain whether any, and what, discrepancies existed between the divers notices and publications required by the Standing Orders of that House. Those Standing Orders had been printed with the sanction of the House, and he supposed that every person engaged in railway surveying throughout the kingdom possessed a copy of them; but, nevertheless, in spite of the great care bestowed on the subject by the Standing Orders' Committee, and by the House, he knew that there were many instances in which it was impossible for parties promoting railway schemes to decide beforehand whether the Standing Orders were or were not complied with. In some very important cases, for example, which he could point out, where the point at issue was the same, decisions had been given sometimes one way and sometimes the other: yet no register or record was kept of those decisions, so that it was of no use looking for precedents to aid in determining whether or not the Standing Orders were complied with. He might, in fact, say, so stringent were those Standing Orders, that he believed he did not overstate the case when he said, that if they were rigidly enforced, there was no Railway Bill, however accurately and carefully prepared, which might not be thrown out on the ground of violation of the Standing Orders. It was the duty of the Committee on Private Bills to examine all Bills, and, if they were found defective, to refer them to the Committee on Standing Orders; and here he must observe, with regard to that last-mentioned Committee, though he had every respect for its Members individually, yet that he looked upon it as in the aggregate one of the most outrageous tribunals in the world: and he believed that nothing save the personal character of the hon. Members who composed it could uphold

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it during another Session: but for their high standing as men of honour and integrity, he felt convinced that the railway world would have no confidence whatsoever in its decisions. Even as it was, indeed, the public had not the confidence which such a tribunal might be expected, and ought to be calculated, to inspire. In the Resolutions which he had read to the House, and which he was about to propose, he endeavoured to remedy one great evil of the present system, by enacting, that in every case in which a Railway Bill should be referred to the Standing Orders' Committee, it should be permitted to the promoters and opponents of the Bill to be heard by one counsel upon the points which had been referred. He had no doubt but that would have the effect of lightening the labours of the Committee, whilst considerable advantage would accrue to the parties concerned, whether as promoters or opponents of a Bill. He would also put an end to that system of secrecy which was at present observed in the Standing Orders' Committee, where decisions were now given affecting property to an immense extent, in the absence of the parties who were the most interested. Those decisions were given one day upon some rule which might be adopted by the Committee, and the same rule might be set aside on another day, by way of compromise, to the almost ruin of a third party, to whose case the rule was not intended to apply. With these observations, he begged to move the Resolutions of which he had given notice, and to which he hoped the House would give a ready assent.
LORD G. SOMERSETsaid, that knowing well the great attention which the hon. Member for Nottingham had paid to the subject of Standing Orders relating to Private Bills, and looking at the Resolutions which had just been proposed and seconded, he must say that he was surprised that such Resolutions should have been brought forward by that hon. Gentleman. He must oppose those Resolutions, because he felt that their adoption, more particularly the adoption of that part which enabled parties to be heard by counsel before the Standing Orders' Committee, would be attended with greatly increased delay and expense to the parties concerned. Indeed, so far from employing counsel in cases where they were not required, there were many hon. Members who thought, from the great latitude in which those learned gentlemen frequently
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indulged, that it would be desirable to dispense with their services in many cases in which they were at present retained. He did not base his objection to the Motion of the hon. Member on his own views alone; but he was guided by the almost unanimous vote of a Committee which had had the subject under consideration. As to compromises being acted upon, he should certainly regret the adoption of that course at any time; but he thought that such a step could in every case be defeated by the vigilance of the Committee. Having regard, then, both to the public interest and to the advantage of the parties concerned, both in the promotion and opposition of Railway Bills, he felt it to be his duty to oppose the present Motion.
MR. STRUTTagreed with the noble Lord opposite in the surprise which he had expressed at the proposition of his hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, from whom, from his great acquaintance with the Standing Orders of that House, he should certainly have expected better things. He took leave to deny altogether the propositions of his hon. Friend, that the Committee on Standing Orders was a sort of court of appeal, or that it was a committee of secrecy. At any rate, it was not more a committee of secrecy than the Committee on Petitions, or any other committee where evidence was not taken. The Standing Orders' Committee had the power of calling before them the promoters of the Bill, and also the chairman of the committee to which it had been referred, who, being one of their own body, would readily give them all the information which he possessed on the subject. If there were no culpable negligence, or that a party had been misled, he had no doubt that the Standing Orders' Committee would take such a case into consideration; but where there was a non-compliance with the Standing Orders, from culpable negligence, and where any party might be damnified by dispensing with them, the decision would, he had no doubt, be different in such a case.
MR. GISBORNEwould be glad to place his views on record, by a division, if he thought that any hon. Members were inclined to divide with him; but as the general feeling of the House appeared to be against him, he would not impose upon them the trouble of dividing.
Resolutions negatived.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
SIR T. FREMANTLEmoved the Order

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of the Day for the Second Reading of the Public Works (Ireland) Bill.
On the Question that the Bill be now read a second time,
MR. S. CRAWFORDinquired if it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to bring in a Bill for amending the valuation of Ireland during this Session.
SIR T. FREMANTLEsaid, that it was his intention to introduce such a Bill.
MR. HUMEsaid, that he had looked carefully over the Bill, and he found great difficulty in arriving clearly at its meaning. It would have been better to bring in a Bill to repeal former Acts, and re-enact the necessary provisions of them in one Bill. The greatest advantage had resulted from the Consolidation of the Customs Acts by Mr. Deacon Hume, and the re-enacting the necessary provisions in one Bill.
SIR T. FREMANTLEperfectly concurred with the general observations of the hon. Member for Montrose, as regarded general alterations in the law; but those observations did not apply to the present Bill. The object of this Bill was merely to give an additional grant of 50,000 l. for the construction of public works in Ire-Ireland. It was true there were proposed in this Bill one or two alterations of the law—but they were alterations of details, and not of the principles of the law—alterations which merely had reference to the repayment of the sum advanced and the rate of interest.
MR. O'CONNELLsaid, that the observations of his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose would apply only to permanent laws—laws which were intended to be perpetual. This, however, was not intended to be a permanent law of that nature, as it was a particular Act of Parliament to regulate the expenditure of a particular sum of money, of a very limited extent he would say, and too small a sum for the purpose which it was proposed to effect by it. He would not oppose the Bill—on the contrary, he would support it; but under the protest that the Government should not, by the introduction of the Bill, be entitled to hold themselves discharged from the duty of providing against the distress which was to be expected in Ireland in a very short period. This Bill was a small instalment of that relief for which the condition of Ireland was crying out. It was impossible to exaggerate the state of things produced in Ireland by the failure of the potato crop. Indeed, it was not too much to say that
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within three or four weeks a great portion of the population might be in a state of actual famine, if measures were not speedily adopted to advert that calamity. The right hon. Gentleman was quite right in urging forward the Bill as fast as possible, and he would co-operate in that object. There were some details which he might feel it necessary to advert to in the Committee; but it would be cruelty to delay its progress, and he was ready to support it, protesting at the same time that the Ministers must not suppose that by this small instalment they discharged any essential part of the duty which devolved upon them to find employment and food for the people of Ireland during the ensuing period of distress.
MR. S. CRAWFORDcalled the attention of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir T. Fremantle) to the propriety of adopting the best means of securing the proper and efficient outlay of the money to be advanced.
SIR H. W. BARRONsaid, that this paltry sum of 50,000 l. was altogether insufficient for providing employment and relief for the immense population which would be exposed to the danger of famine in the ensuing spring and summer. He had reason to believe that the Commission appointed by the Government to inquire into this subject in Dublin calculated that no less than four millions of the Irish people would be in a state of destitution in the ensuing spring and summer, and to meet that destitution this Bill would give 3d. a head to those people to support them for three months. Was that to be supposed a measure for giving employment and relief to the people of Ireland during the approaching time of distress? He hoped the Government would not suppose that this was sufficient to relieve the people of Ireland, or that it was more than a drop of water in the sea, as compared with the great wants of that country, in consequence of the severe visitation of Providence which had occurred. It was not charity that the people required, but employment, and that employment the Government were bound to give them. It was the first principle of all governments that the care of the people should precede every other consideration: salus populi lex suprema was a principle which no political economist could deny. He sincerely wished that he had sufficient power to impress upon the Government the absolute necessity of taking timely precautions

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against the approaching famine; and he hoped that the gentry of Ireland would immediately come forward to assist in relieving their fellow countrymen, who by the circumstance of the failure of the potato crop were in danger of being reduced to a state of the utmost destitution. It should be recollected by the Government that many of the landed proprietors of Ireland were absentees; and that many other proprietors, who were resident in Ireland, had not the means at their command of giving sufficient employment to those around them. Under these circumstances, therefore, it was the imperative duty of the Government to come forward and provide the means of employment for the people of Ireland. If a sufficiently large sum were provided, it would not only relieve the distress of the people, but effect great public good, for there was scarcely a river or harbour in Ireland that was not capable of great and profitable improvement, whilst all the public improvements could be greatly facilitated by the assistance and co-operation of the county surveyors in that country. It was said on a former occasion that they ought not to tax the English people in order to give money to the Irish. But he would ask, did not the Irish nation pay her share, and more than her share, of the taxes? Had not every Chancellor of the Exchequer since the Union stated that the Irish people were taxed more heavily in proportion to their means than any other people in Europe? He believed that the Irish people were more taxed in proportion to their means of payment than any other people on the face of the globe. Those who made such observations as that which he alluded to were not the friends of the Union between both countries, for if it were said that the Irish had no claim on a fair proportion of the taxation of the United Kingdom, they would say, "Then in God's name let us manage our own affairs." The Irish people did not ask to receive money from English taxation, but they demanded as a right a fair proportion of the general taxation. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman opposite would come forward with a more extensive measure of relief than that which this Bill would afford.
MR. M. MILNESsaid, that in giving his support to the Bill he was anxious to express his opinion, without saying whether it was a contemptible sum or not—that it was totally inadequate for the great purpose which it was intended to effect—
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and that it ought rather to be taken as a sign and token of English sympathy and interest, than as meant for a sufficient remedy for the evils which threatened Ireland. He believed that this great evil, the failure of the potato crop in Ireland, ought to be met in a totally different manner. It ought not to be met by English charity or Government assistance, but by the cordial sympathy and aid of the landed proprietors in Ireland, exhibited towards their distressed and unhappy tenantry. That was a duty which could not be properly discharged by deputation or by the appointment of a commission, but every landed proprietor who had an estate in Ireland ought to go to that estate and apply every shilling he possessed to the relief of the people; nay, he ought to borrow money, if he possessed none, for that purpose; and he was sure that the Irish people would make an ample return in their gratitude for that conduct towards them. He would except no one from that duty. There were Dukes and Marquesses who had palaces in this city, and estates in this country, but who, nevertheless, possessed large estates in Ireland; and it was their duty—a duty which he would willingly discharge if he possessed estates in that country—to betake themselves to their Irish property, and bestow from their private means relief to the people. That was the duty of the aristocracy;
"Sume superbiam quæsitam meritis;"
and England would co-operate in the exertions to alleviate the evil.
MR. F. FRENCHrejoiced to hear the speech of the right hon. Member who had just sat down; and he was convinced that if facilities were afforded to the landed proprietors of Ireland they would be found ready to undertake their part in assisting to relieve the distress which threatened a large portion of its population. His chief object in rising was to endeavour to impress on the mind of the right hon. Baronet the objectionable nature of the 5th and 6th clauses of the Bill. He hoped that some deference would be paid to the opinion of the country Gentlemen of Ireland on this subject; but, judging from the clauses to which he had adverted, it would seem that the Government thought their opinions of no moment.
COLONEL CONOLLYagreed with the hon. Member for Roscommon in thinking that the landed gentry ought to have a voice in the matter. He was very happy to find that the money intended to be advanced

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on loan was to be lent out at a low and reasonable interest. It was his firm conviction that there would be an ample return for the money about to be so judiciously invested.
Bill read a second time.
House adjourned at a quarter past two o'clock.