Commons Sitting of 4 February 1846

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED, From Inverness and Brighton, for Repeal, and from Sussex, against Alteration, of the Corn Laws,—From Enfield and Fleetwood, against Enrolment of the Militia.—From Chairman of the Board of Guardians of the Nenagh Union, for the Adoption of Measures for the Employment of the People of Ireland.

EMPLOYMENT OF PAUPERS.
CAPTAIN PECHELLsaid, that it was now nearly eight years since he placed before the notice of the House the case of a labouring man in the Eastbourne Union, in Sussex, who had been brought to death's door by the system of labour to which the paupers were subjected in that workhouse. At the time, he was met by very unjust and very severe observations on the part of those who chose to defend the system of crushing bones in the various workhouses. Every year since that time he had endeavoured to press the matter on the attention of Government; and at length, he was happy to say, the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department had entered into the feelings of those who had brought that monstrous abuse, the practice of bone-crushing, before the House. The House was well aware, that during the last two Sessions the right hon. Baronet did state, on several occasions, that he highly disapproved of that practice, either by way of punishment or as a mode of useful employment. The Poor Law Commissioners, however, appeared to have thwarted the intentions of the Secretary of State; and, notwithstanding the fact that much pains were taken to promulgate the expression of his opinion regarding the practice, still every means was used to continue it throughout the country. Last Session, he moved for a Return of the number of Union Workhouses in which the paupers were employed in the abominable system of crushing or pounding bones, and

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describing by name the chairman and vice-chairman of every Union where the practice existed. From that Return, it appeared that there were nearly two hundred workhouses in which that intolerable nuisance and cruelty were encouraged. The Unions, in fact, set the Secretary of State at defiance, and the Poor Law Commissioners seemed to encourage them. At last came the gross case in the Andover Union, when the right hon. Baronet expressed himself in the most proper and feeling manner in respect to it, and subsequently instituted an inquiry into the case, and directed an assistant Poor Law Commissioner to investigate the charges against the authorities at Andover. He should be very glad if the report of that inquiry were furnished to the House. However, they were given to understand, through the public sources of information, that an order had been issued by the Commissioners for the purpose of putting an end to the practice of crushing and grinding bones in the workhouses; and it was also rumoured that several boards of guardians who had been most prominent in defence of the system, had since remonstrated with the Poor Law Commissioners, and had made such representations as had caused them to suspend the execution of the order in question. That suspension was requested upon the principle that the various boards had a large stock of bones still on hand, which they wished to get rid of, as he supposed, on the same plan as that by which they were to abolish the sliding scale. He hoped, however, that the right hon. Baronet would follow up his noble exertions, and expose those persons who continued to encourage the practice, and made every effort to evade the rules and regulations which he had laid down for them. The persons to whom he alluded brought arguments on both sides to defend the practice; they brought doctors forward to favour their views, who stated, that as the bones were ground in a different room from that in which the paupers were employed, the mill, in fact, being worked by a crank, that, for all the paupers could tell, it might be corn—free-trade corn, he hoped—which they were grinding; but it had been shown to the House that it was necessary that some of the paupers should be employed in selecting and paring the bones, as well as in regulating the mills; and with regard to them, at least, it was not true that they were not liable to all the stench and misery attendant on the practice. In the Committee on the Gilbert
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Union, full evidence had been given of the effects of that practice on the health of the paupers; and it was proved that the fetidness of the air of those mills was such, that it caused the greatest pain to those near them, as well as a strong desire to leave such a horrible scene. He was only anxious that the right hon. Baronet should be able to state before the House that he was determined to put an end to the practice. It was true he (Sir J. Graham) had already assured the House that he wished to do so, but at the same time expressed a doubt whether the Poor Law Commissioners had sufficient power to prevent the board of guardians from employing the paupers as they thought fit. It was also said, that crushed bones were required to enable the landlords to compete with guano. He (Captain Pechell), therefore, had asked the right hon. Baronet to legislate upon the subject; and the House was now informed that, in some of those Unions, a suspended order had been issued, abolishing the practice, which was to come into operation on the 1st of April next. He hoped the right hon. Baronet would suspend the suspending order, and make those boards get rid of their accumulated stock of bones in some other way than by sacrificing the health of the paupers. There must, undoubtedly, be some men engaged in chopping and selecting the bones; and although the number of persons so employed might be reduced, still it was absolutely necessary that the filthy practice should be abolished; and he hoped that the right hon. Baronet would speedily complete the humane work he had undertaken, and put an end to it throughout the country. The hon. and gallant Gentleman concluded by moving for a copy of any letter and general rule issued by the Poor Law Commissioners, relative to the employment of paupers in pounding, grinding, or otherwise breaking bones, or in preparing bone dust; to which he begged leave to add, any copy of letter from any board of guardians remonstrating against the general rule, and requesting a suspension of the new order.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, he was not by any means disposed to offer any opposition to the Return for which the hon. and gallant Officer had just moved. It was quite true that from a very early period his opinions quite concurred with those of the hon. and gallant Officer, and that he considered the particular mode of employment under consideration as inexpedient, because it was of a degrading nature, and had

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more of a penal character than became the operations of a workhouse. Until the Andover case was brought under the cognizance of the House, he certainly entertained the opinion that the Poor Law Commissioners had no power to force the boards of guardians to alter the practice; but, owing to that case, he had directed his attention more earnestly and particularly to that subject, and the result of that investigation was, that he found that the Poor Law Commissoners had the power to interfere by the issue of a general order. He had therefore pressed upon the Commissioners the expediency of issuing such an order, and already, in pursuance of his request, that order, which was on the Table of the House, had been issued. The hon. and gallant Officer was correct in stating that the occupation had unfortunately become very general in the workhouses throughout England, for it appeared that it had been adopted in upwards of 150 out of about 500 Unions. Out of that large number, he thought about nine Unions had applied for the suspension of the order for a short time, in order to adapt the machinery of their mills to other uses, and in each case of such application he had called for a general detail of all the circumstances whereupon it was grounded. On considering the circumstances, he had in nine cases consented to suspend the operation of the order for three months from the 1st of January last. He was perfectly willing to present the Papers for which the hon. and gallant Officer had moved; and he thought that the fact of there being only nine cases out of 150 wherein the suspension of the order was required, showed a great alteration in the mode of workhouse employment. After the 1st of April bone-crushing would no longer be legal, and he hoped that the hon. and gallant Member would be satisfied with that assurance and the explanation he had given him.
MR. ETWALLsaid, that as he intended to bring forward a Motion on the subject of the Andover case, he would not then trouble the House; but he wished to ask the right hon. Baronet if the Andover Union was included among those which had remonstrated against the order. [Sir J. GRAHAM could not give a positive answer to the hon. Member.] He wished to state that the inquiry which had been instituted into the conduct of the authorities of Andover workhouse was not considered by the public as a satisfactory investigation into the facts of the case. There were
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no mills at Andover, and consequently the smell was much more nauseous to those engaged in crushing and pounding them. When the assistant Poor Law Commissioner went down, he waited on Mr. Munday, who first brought the subject before the authorities, and took his examination and that of a man in his employment, who had been in the workhouse during the preceding winter; but on leaving he said he could not specify the day on which he would make his examination in detail. No public notice of any sort had been given to the guardians, and where ten paupers had been examined on the investigation, only one had given evidence before the Assistant Commissioner. The inquiry had been neither fall nor satisfactory.
Mr. CHRISTIEasked if there would be any objection on the part of Government to produce the letters of Mr. Chadwick, and the remonstrances which, it was said, Mr. Parker had used on the occasion; and stated that he intended to move an Amendment to the Motion of the hon. Member for Andover, for the purpose of extending the inquiry which he proposed to institute.
SIR J. GRAHAMreplied, that he could not answer the question of the hon. Member, as he had not given him (Sir J. Graham) any notice of his intention to put it.
CAPTAIN PECHELLremarked, that it was believed there was a difference of opinion at Somerset House as to the power of the Commissioners to interfere with the boards of guardians, and in that belief he concurred. It was said that Mr. Chadwick thought the Commissioners had the power, and Mr. Lewis and his colleagues were of an opposite opinion. He was sure the right hon. Baronet had been informed that no power did exist to control the proceedings of the boards as to the employment of the paupers. The acquiescence of the Secretary of State to produce the Papers for which he had moved, gave him very great satisfaction; and he hoped he would consent to add to them a return of all the bones on hand in the various workhouses, the quantity purchased, and the time at which the purchase had been made; for it might appear that at the time when they were bought, the Tariff had been passed, under which a reduction of the duty on bones had been made.
Motion agreed to.

FRENCH AND ENGLISH FISHERIES.
CAPTAIN PECHELLmoved, pursuant to notice, for copies of the communications

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which had been made to the Board of Trade and the Commissioners of Customs relative to the instructions to be issued to the naval authorities respecting the Convention between this country and France, and with respect to the examination of French fishing vessels. Now, from what appeared in the French newspapers, it would seem that remonstrances had been made by the French Government to the British Government on this subject, and that the latter had yielded the point sought for. Now, by the 13th Article of the Convention between the two countries, the fishermen of both countries were ordered, when required to do so by the respective authorities, to present their licenses for examination. It was stated in the newspapers that the Board of Trade had issued instructions relative to the construction or interpretation of this 13th Article, and directing that no fishing vessels were to be examined unless there were grounds for suspecting them. It appeared to him that there was a giving way on the part of our own Government on this question. He knew an instance where some French fishermen had come in the night, and drew the fishing stations of the English fishermen, to their great injury and loss. He did not see any Lord of the Admiralty present, or he would ask him a question relative to this subject, or whether any instructions had been sent from that department. He hoped the right hon. Baronet opposite would furnish them with any copies of instructions furnished by the Admiralty, so that the House might know exactly how the case stood.
SIR G. CLERKhad no objection to the production of the documents to which the hon. and gallant Member opposite referred. He believed the hon. and gallant Gentleman had correctly stated the case. The fact was that complaints had been made by the fishermen of both nations of their boats having been examined by the cruisers of both countries; and upon a communication taking place between the Governments of France and England, it had been thought better to confine the cases of search or visit to such fishing boats as might be suspected of violation of the terms of the Convention. This regulation was as good for the fishermen of one nation as another, and both French and English boats were convenienced by being preserved from the system. He could inform the hon. and gallant Member that a copy of the letter sent to the Customs had also been sent to the
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Admiralty, for its guidance and information. With regard to the return of the number of French and English boats which had been detained from time to time under the Convention, he could inform the hon. and gallant Captain it was in course of preparation, and would be presented in a few days.
CAPTAIN PECHELLsaid the French Government had not yet passed any law to carry into effect the rules and regulations agreed on by the Convention. In consequence of the imperfect lettering, numbering, marking, and naming of their boats, it was difficult to identify any of them which might have been concerned in any aggression on a dark night.
Motion agreed to.

PRIVILEGE—INTERPOLATED PETITIONS.
MR. GISBORNEthen said, he had a petition to present to the House of rather a particular character, and it complained of what, if true, involved a gross violation of the privileges of that House. The allegations contained in the petition were to the following effect, viz. — that on last Monday night a petition had been presented to the House, purporting to be the petition of one Edmond Carter, saying, that in the case of the Manchester and Southampton Railway Bill the Standing Orders had not been complied with, and that this petition was an interpolated one, and now lay in that state on the Table of the House amongst its Printed Papers. He had, therefore, to move that the petition he then presented, should be printed and referred to a Select Committee to investigate the allegations therein made.
Motion agreed to.

COURTS OF REQUEST.
MR. KEMBLEbegged to ask whether it was the intention of the Government to extend the jurisdiction of Courts of Request, in accordance with the provisions of the Bill of last year?
SIR J. GRAHAMwas glad the hon. Member had, by his question, given him an opportunity of explaining what were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government in this respect. Since the passing of the law of last Session, several petitions had been presented from various places asking for an extension of the jurisdiction of such courts under the Act in question; and these petitions had been referred to a Committee of the Privy Council; and instructions had been sent to all the Courts

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of Request throughout England, to make the inquiries necessary to enable the Government to carry the law into effect, and extend the jurisdiction of such courts. But the care necessary to be observed in forming the larger circles for the operation of these courts, so as not to interfere with any smaller ones that might intervene, rendered the time for carrying the law into effect a little more prolonged than otherwise. But no time had been lost, and the arrangement of the whole plan was in progress. Meantime he should feel it his duty to call upon the House to grant him a Supplemental Bill during the present Session to regulate the proceedings in those courts. It would be also the care of the Government to see that assessors, properly qualified, and professional men of competent standing, should be engaged in the practice of these courts.
MR. HAWESasked, whether the right hon. Baronet proposed to lay on the Table any Papers of information upon which the Government might have relied in carrying out the proposed plan; and also whether the applications for the extension of jurisdiction alluded to would be produced, or the grounds upon which they were made stated?
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, the hon. Gentleman must be aware, that, even without any such applications, the Bill, of last Session empowered an extension of the jurisdiction of these Courts of Request, where it might be deemed expedient and advisable. When the Privy Council had made their Report to Her Majesty, and Her Majesty had sanctioned that Report, he should be prepared to bring the entire subject before Parliament.
Adjourned at a few minutes after two o'clock.