Commons Sitting of 11 August 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o. British Possessions.
2o. Naval and Military Departments; Public Works Commissioners (Ireland); Public Works and Fisheries; Small Debts; Public Works, Fisheries, &c.; public Works (Ireland) (No. 3); County Works Presentments (Ireland) (No. 2); Medical Practitioners.
Reported. Commons Inclosure (No. 3); Contagious Diseases Prevention; Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics.
3o. and passed. Deodands Abolition (No. 2); Death by Accidents Compensation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Evans, from Associated Ministers and Delegates of the Churches of the Congregational Order in Derbyshire, in favour of the Religious Opinions Bill.—By Admiral Dundas, from John Paterson, of Silver Street, Greenwich, praying for Compensation for Losses sustained through the passing of the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act.—By Mr. Thomas Duncombe, from Inhabitants of Ashton under Lyne, in Public Meeting assembled, complaining of the Treatment of Factory Children.—By Dr. Bowring, from Inhabitants of the Town of Hounslow and its Vicinity, for the Abolition of Naval and Military Flogging.—By Mr. Redhead Yorke, from Ratepayers of the Township of Southwick, in the Parish of Monkwearmouth, in the County of Durham, for Repeal or Alteration of Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.—By Mr. Craven Berkeley, from William Henry Brown, of Park Road, in the County of Surrey, M.D., against the Medical Practitioners Bill.—By Mr. Thomas Duncombe, from Commissioners for Paving the United Parishes of Saint Andrew Holborn above the Bars, and St. George the Martyr, in the County of Middlesex, suggesting Plans for the Metropolitan Improvements..—By Mr. W. H. Bodkin, from Finsbury, for Redemption of the Tolls on the Waterloo and other Bridges.

NAVAL COURTS MARTIAL.
MR. WILLIAMSwish to asked a question of the Secretary of the Admiralty whether, as so much irregularity had taken place in courts martial in the navy, the opinion of the law officers of the Crown had been taken with regard to the trial of a marine lately sentenced to be hanged at Cork for striking his superior officer?
MR. WARDreplied, that the minutes of the court martial alluded to by the hon. Member for Coventry, were received in due course by the Board of Admiralty, who having found reason to suppose there was a legal flaw in the constitution of the court, submitted them to the law officers of the Crown. The law officers considered the court was illegally constituted,

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and thought it unnecessary and undesirable, bearing in mind the suspense which the offender must have undergone, to order a new trial. Under these circumstances they directed the proceedings to be considered null and void; and recommended the offender to be brought back to his company, in the hope that the anxiety and suspense he suffered would have a salutary effect upon his future conduct.

RAILWAY LEGISLATION.
MR. WILLIAMSwished to ask the noble Lord at the head of the Government, whether it was his intention to propose any Resolution with respect to the introduction of Railway Bills in the next Session of Parliament? He was induced to ask this question, because it had been computed that in the course of the present Session the Legislature had sanctioned Railway Bills requiring the sum of 150,000,000 l. for their construction; and that the Session before, they had legalized undertakings requiring a further sum of 60,000,000 l., making altogether no less than 210,000,000 l. There was, he believed, a great apprehension existing in the money market, that the monetary affairs of the country would be deranged, and its commerce considerably retarded, by the application of so much capital to railway undertakings.
LORD J. RUSSELL: There are proposals about to be made with respect to the mode in which Railway Bills are to be framed; and the manner in which it is proposed they shall be examined in this House; and for that purpose a Committee has been sitting. Her Majesty's Government intend to take into consideration the Resolutions recommended by that Committee, with respect to the formation of a Railway Board. I will not now state the functions of that board; but the hon. Gentleman seems to have in contemplation another mode of interference—an interference calculated to restrict the application of capital, from the apprehension that such an application would derange the monetary affairs of the country. With regard to that subject, the House will bear it in recollection that a Committee of this House was appointed at the commencement of this Session, and another in the House of Lords to inquire into that point, and that neither of those Committees recommended any interference with the numerous railway projects then before the House. On the ground that they had not so recom-
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mended any interference, various Railway Bills were passed, after they were examined before Committees, at a great expense to the parties concerned, and to the country at large. I do not, then, think with regard to those Committees, and with regard to the examination of railway projects, that it would be right now to stop those Railway Bills, and prevent the application of that capital which the public may be anxious to invest in such speculations. With regard to the general question, without pledging myself to a question of general legislation, I see a very great objection to an interference with the application of capital to railway projects and other undertakings of similar character, seeing we do not know any mode by which we could interfere with respect to the application of capital to railways in foreign countries. There are no means by which we could propose that any extent of capital speculators may think fit to invest, should not be applied to the construction of railways on the Continent or in the United States of America. Such being the case, I see a great objection to our interfering with the application of capital, and I fear in practice it will be found difficult and impracticable to carry such legislation into effect.

DEODANDS ABOLITION (No. 2) BILL.
Upon the Motion that this Bill be read a Third Time,
LORD GRANVILLE SOMERSETobjected to the manner in which this matter had been introduced. Neither the private rights of the Sovereign nor individuals had been consulted. He believed that 700 l. or 800 l. a year, arising from deodands, was paid into the privy purse; and it was only common decency that the Crown should have been consulted on the subject, and that some communication should have been made to Parliament on the part of Her Majesty. Private individuals would also be injured by this measure, as he believed that the corporation of Liverpool, for instance, received a considerable sum of money from deodands.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that he was quite prepared to take the same course as was taken last year by the noble Lord the Member for Falkirk, who announced Her Majesty's assent to a similar measure; and he was now ready to signify Her Majesty's assent to the present Bill. The right which would be relinquished by the Crown was of trifling pecuniary value, because

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lately deodands had been much litigated; and when they had been imposed by the verdict of a jury, they had in almost every case been taken into the Court of Queen's Bench, and quashed there.
Bill read a Third Time.
On the Motion that the Bill do pass,
MR. S. WORTLEYsaid, that although this Bill had passed the House of Lords, after an able introduction, yet it had so passed without any discussion whatever. It would be recollected that deodands were a gift to the Crown in a very early stage of our history; and he did not think that any alteration whatever was made in the case by their having been in some instances made over to corporations. The only discussion which the Bill had undergone was in a Committee up-stairs, consisting chiefly of lawyers, the responsibility of whose acts he would share, although he was only present for half an hour. It should further be recollected that it was by means of deodands only that a cheap and ready compensation was made to the poor for the injury which they suffered. Now, in the instance of an injury inflicted by a railway company, was it at all reasonable that they should not be obliged to pay for the consequences of the conduct of their servants? What was the use of bringing an action for damages against the servant, who was in most cases a man of straw, and could pay nothing? He was no advocate for the absurdity of the law of deodands; but he did say that a simple compensation to the Crown was a very ready means of getting at the compensation which was due to the injured party. He would appeal to the learned Lord Advocate for a confirmation of the working of the law of deodands in Scotland. He believed it worked very well. The Bill was brought down from the House of Lords on the 8th of May; and it was read a second time in the House of Commons, and committed on the following Monday; and when he returned to town on that day at one o'clock, he found that the two clauses which gave the principal feature to the Bill had not only been refrained, but totally altered in character. In Scotland, there was this difference in the law: the nearest relation of the person killed or injured might bring an action for damages; and any relation who might be abroad at the time of the occurrence, was not debarred from bringing an action on his return; in fact, each relation might come in turn. The question was involved in difficulties: he considered, therefore, that the two Bills
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before the House ought to be postponed until next Session; and that, in the meantime, a Select Committee should be appointed to consider the laws relative to deodands, and to report to the House on the subject. He concluded by moving as an Amendment the appointment of a Committee to consider the present state of the law of deodands, and of actions for injuries to the person by accident or otherwise.
The ATTORNEY GENERALcould not accede to the Motion of his right hon. and learned Friend. The subject had been already carefully considered; and the result had been the Bill before the House. Were the deodands to be continued, to take them from the lord of the manor and give them to the sufferers, would cause a demand for compensation on the part of the former — a demand which, however, would not be raised were deodands to be abolished altogether, as converted from their original purposes, and vicious in their present operation. By the present law of deodand, compensation was made, not according to the extent of the injury inflicted, but according to the value of the instrument of injury. How did the right hon. and learned Gentleman mean to apportion the fine which he wished to keep up? Would he entrust the task of valuing it to the defective machinery of a coroner's court? If there was anything more difficult to fix than another, it was the amount of a deodand, and the cases in which it ought to be levied. The only way he could see of putting the system upon a more satisfactory footing was that of making the deodand recoverable by an action at civil law; and that was the course which the Government intended to adopt. He had great reliance upon the judgment of an English jury in fixing the amount of deodand. If they did sometimes run riot, they were always promptly checked, and the evil righted itself.
MR. WAKLEYsaid, he had hoped that some other legal Gentleman would have been present to expound the law. His two hon. Friends who had just spoken were educated under circumstances entirely similar, but their opinions entirely differed. If either of those Gentlemen were elevated to the Bench, the law of coroner would entirely depend on the opinion of which of them happened to be judge. That was a most unsatisfactory state of things. The law of deodand, he admitted, was in a most unsatisfactory state. He would take the case of a liverystable keeper who lent

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to a wild drunken apprentice an unmanageable horse. The horse might cause the death of some person; and yet the livery-stable keeper, who was as much, if not more, to blame than the rider of the horse, entirely escaped all the consequences—the law could not touch him. If the horse belonged to a gentleman, and were ridden by his servant, the gentleman, in that case, would be liable. If, in the case of a railway company, the wheel of a carriage came off, and caused death to some one, the company might prove that the wheels had been examined before the starting of the train, and yet the jury had the power to inflict a deodand. He admitted that the law required alteration; but yet he hoped the hon. and learned Member would not divide the House on his Motion, provided the Government would give an assurance that if the Bill did not work well they would bring in another of a more efficient character.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that the question was, whether the Amendment proposed was one likely to be beneficial. The hon. and learned Members who had been discussing the Bill differed in opinion; and a similar difference of opinion was observable in the noble and learned Lords who had discussed the question in the other House. He thought that the Bill ought certainly to receive a more full and careful investigation before it passed that House.
The House divided on the Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:"—Ayes 51; Noes 6: Majority 45.

List of the AYES.

Anson, hon. Col.

Greene, T.

Arundel and Surrey, Earl of

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Hawes, B.

Baldwin, B.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Berkeley, hon. C.

Howard, P. H.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Jervis, Sir J.

Bernal, R.

Morpeth, Visct.

Bodkin, W. H.

Muntz, G. F.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

O'Conor Don

Brocklehurst, J.

Parker, J.

Brown, W.

Rich, H.

Browne, hon. W.

Rumbold, C. E.

Byng, rt. hon. G. S.

Rutherford, A.

Crawford, W. S.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Duncan, G.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Duncannon, Visct.

Strutt, E.

Dundas, Adm.

Thornely, T.

Dundas, D.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Ebrington, Visct.

Turner, E.

Escott, B.

Wakley, T.

Evans, Sir De L.

Walpole, S. H.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Warburton, H.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

Ward, H. G.

Gore, hon. R.

Wawn, J. T.

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Williams, W.

TELLERS.

Wood, Col. T.

Tufnell, H.

Wyse, T.

Craig, G.

Yorke, H. R.

List of the NOES.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Somerset, Lord G.

Fuller, A. E.

Henley, J. W.

TELLERS.

Nicholl, rt. hon. J.

Wortley, J. S.

Palmer, G.

Cripps, T.

Bill passed.

LABOURERS FOR THE WEST INDIES.
MR. GRANTLEY BERKELEYhad a question of great interest and importance to put to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, with respect to the Colony of British Guiana; namely, whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take off the existing restrictions upon the importation of free labourers into British Guiana and the West Indian Colonies, from the free States of Africa? He also wished to know, whether there was any objection to permit free immigration into those British Colonies from the Kroo Coast; and, if there were no objection, when would the present restrictions be taken off?
LORD JOHN RUSSELLreplied, that he had stated before, that there was every desire on the part of Her Majesty's Government to permit free immigration from the coast of Africa into the Colonies of British Guiana and the West Indies. But there was considerable difficulty surrounding the question, inasmuch as unless restrictions were placed upon the mode of immigration, there might be, under the pretence of carrying free labourers to the Colonies, an actual carrying on of the Slave Trade. Persons might take Africans from the coasts under the pretence of their being engaged as free labourers, and, sailing nominally for Guiana or Jamaica, might take them instead to Cuba or Brazil. He thought therefore that it would be necessary that some proof should be given of the intention of the parties, and that the emigrants should be shown to be really engaged for the West Indies. For that purpose there should be some British authority appointed at the British settlements whose business it would be to ascertain whether any contract had been entered into between the parties, and to have proof of that contract, and that it was the bonâ fide intention of the shippers to take the labourers to Guiana or some of the West Indian Colonies. The noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies had, since he (Lord

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John Russell) last addressed the House upon the subject, received an application from some persons deeply interested in the prosperity of the West Indies, the substance of which was that the Kroo Coast might be opened for the importation of free labour. But there was no British settlement there, and the difficulty would be consequently apparent. However, his noble Friend had the subject under consideration; and if an arrangement could be effected whereby some officer could be appointed before whom all the immigrants should come in order to be examined, then immigration would be permitted. The whole subject was undergoing consideration; and he was sure his hon. Friend would agree with him that it was necessary to observe the greatest caution, that under no pretence should any encouragement be given to the Slave Trade.

THE GAME LAWS.
MR. GRANTLEY BERKELEYagain rose to call the attention of the House to the evidence taken by the Committee on the Game Laws, when the House was counted out, and adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock.