Commons Sitting of 5 August 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o. Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics; Sites for Dwellings (No. 1); Arms (Ireland); Sites for Dwellings (No. 2); Contagious Diseases Prevention; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland); Turnpike Roads (Ireland); Forms (Assessed Taxes); Militia Pay.
2o. Gauge of Railways; Sugar Duties (No. 3); Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society.
Reported. Court of Common Pleas.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several hon. Members, from an immense number of places, against the Union of Saint Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.—From the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Dublin, for the Restoration of the ancient Rights and Privileges to the Corporation of Dublin.—By Mr. Mildmay, from Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Town and County of the Town of Southampton, for the more easy Recovery of Small Debts.—By Mr. Hume, from Merchants, Agents, Shipowners, &c. connected with the Indian and Eastern Colonial Trade, for Establishing Steam Communication with the Colonies.

PUBLIC CEMETERIES BILL.
MR. MACKINNON, in moving the Second Reading of the Public Cemeteries Bill, observed, that the object of the measure was threefold: first, to prevent all interments within the precincts of large towns or populous places; secondly, to prevent dead bodies from being kept in the rooms of the poorer classes for an indefinite time—a practice which induced many pestilential disorders; and thirdly, to limit, in some measure, the exorbitant charges of undertakers and others, which the poor were unable to pay. The evidence given before the Health of Towns Commission had fully established the bad effects of permitting interments in towns, and of allowing corpses to be kept for several days in the same rooms with the living members of the deceased's family. To remedy these
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evils it would be necessary to place certain powers and machinery in the hands of the Government: there seemed no other course, notwithstanding the strong disinclination in the country to centralization. This Bill, accordingly, proposed that a Commissioner or Commissioners be appointed to act under a Committee of Privy Council, and to report on the existence of any nuisances affecting the public health. The Commissioners would inquire and report the extent of the evils abovementioned in the metropolis, and in towns where epidemic disease might appear most prevalent, or whenever they received a complaint from any parish or union; and they would state to the Committee of Privy Council the existing extent of space provided for burials in the district, and the edifices and consecrated and unconsecrated ground required, with plans and estimates for new cemeteries. If, after due publicity given to the project, it should be approved by the Privy Council, then it might be carried into execution under the superintendence of the Commissioner, with the aid of a local committee, if thought fit, consisting of the local clergy and a number of the inhabitants of the district. The Bill proposed to give compensation to the clergy during the lives of the present incumbents for the loss of fees, and also to clerks and sextons, if these should not be appointed by the Commissioner to the new public cemeteries. The proprietors of private burial grounds within the district would, also receive compensation for any loss they might sustain. The expense of all this might be defrayed by a small addition to the poor rate, not to exceed 3d. per head per annum, if the burial dues proved insufficient; money for the first cost might be obtained by loans secured on those burial dues and rates in aid of them. The whole subject was of vast importance; 67,000 persons were dying every year of epidemic and contagious diseases, occurring, in the largest proportions, in the worst-conditioned districts of towns. But this subject, as well as that of the prevention of smoke, ought to be taken out of his (Mr. Mackinnon's) hands by the Government; and he would propose that the Bill be read a second time, in order that the country might have opportunity of considering it before next Session, and then he hoped the Government would bring forward a satisfactory measure, founded on a great and comprehensive view of the whole matter.
SIR G. GREYfelt that the hon. Mem

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ber was entitled to very great credit for the pains he had taken on this important subject. It was one which came within the operation of those sanitary measures which were now under the consideration of the Government, and would be brought forward, it might be hoped, early next Session. To read this Bill a second time at present, however, might be pledging the House to very important details—perhaps the assent would be rather formal than substantial—but it was desirable to reserve the whole question for full and fair consideration. The best course would be to let the House have the benefit of that consideration. He hoped the hon. Member would be disposed to leave the matter in the hands of the Government, with the assurance that the whole subject was to be considered by them.
MR. MACKINNONassented, and expressed a hope that the Government would be able so to mature a measure as to have it brought forward at an early period next Session.
Motion withdrawn.

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL.
MR. BOUVERIEsaid, the whole system of the bankruptcy and insolvency laws of this country had, during the last eight or ten years, been in such a state of oscillation and transition, that it now presented a mass of confusion; and such an amount of suffering and pecuniary loss was inflicted by it upon the country as was almost incredible, so that an alteration in the law was imperatively called for. The great objects of a bankrupt and insolvent law, which ought to be to facilitate the means of getting possession of the property of insolvent traders, to prevent that property from the consequences of waste or fraud, and to protect the insolvent trader, were very inadequately obtained under the present system. He was glad to find that it was the intention of the Government to consider the whole subject, with a view to bringing in a large measure to amend the present system. That being the case, he would not press the Motion for going into Committee on the Bill, but would leave the question in the hands of Her Majesty's Ministers.
SIR G. GREYsaid, with reference to this subject, he had received a communication from his noble Friend the Lord Chancellor, to the effect that he had under consideration a measure for the amendment of the bankruptcy and insolvency laws, which
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he hoped to be able to perfect before next Session of Parliament.
Motion for Committee withdrawn.

WASTE LANDS (IRELAND) BILL.
MR. P. SCROPEsaid, this Bill stood for the second reading that day. He had had great hopes that the measure, or some one equivalent to it, would have been taken up by the Government during the present Session, and carried successfully through the House. Since he came down to the House, however, he had learned that there was an indisposition to carry this or any similar measure during the present Session. He regretted this exceedingly, as it was in every respect desirable that they should have as many sources of employment for the people of Ireland as possible during the winter months; and he knew of none more profitable or beneficial than the reclamation of waste lands in Ireland on a large scale. If this Bill was postponed, he trusted that at the earliest possible period next Session, a measure would be introduced by Government for this object, as he was satisfied that without some such, scheme no satisfactory government of Ireland could be carried on.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, Her Majesty's Government had every wish to introduce a Bill of this kind, and much consideration had been given to this and other measures of a similar nature; but, after due deliberation, they had come to the conclusion that it would be far better to postpone such measures till more time for consideration could be given to them.
Bill withdrawn.

EPISCOPAL REVENUES AND DIOCESE BILL.
MR. FREWENhad stated that day week, in introducing this Bill, that he brought it in solely in consequence of the Bangor and St. Asaph and Manchester Bill, which had passed the other House. But as the noble Lord (Lord Clive) had withdrawn the latter measure, it was not his intention to press the present one, and therefore he asked for leave to discharge the order for the second reading.
COLONEL SIBTHORPhoped this Bill was withdrawn altogether, and that its present withdrawal was not merely temporary, contingent upon the introduction of any other measure. He had never read a Bill so wholly objectionable from the commencement to the close. Why, it proposed nineteen new bishops. Now, on a

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recent occasion the bishops had not done their duty as they ought. He alluded to the Maynooth grant, to which they gave their sanction. He would ever support the Church of the country, and with it the Monarchy; but he could not consent to a Bill of this dangerous and obnoxious description, which he believed would be destructive to the Church.
Order discharged.

SITES FOR DWELLINGS FOR THE POOR.
VISCOUNT MORPETHmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to empower the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Woods to sell, on certain conditions, sites for dwellings for the poor out of the hereditary estates of the Crown; and another Bill, empowering the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Woods to sell, on certain conditions, sites for dwellings for the poor out of lands vested in them under Acts for the improvement of the metropolis. These Bills would, he considered, have a very beneficial effect upon the present most deplorable condition — so far as regarded the comforts of their habitations—of the poor. Several benevolent persons, having formed themselves into societies, had undertaken to build suitable lodgings for the working classes; and as, in the improvements frequently taking place, the poor were driven from miserable abodes into localities still more miserable, he thought it only right that the Crown, and the Commissioners under it, should have power to counteract a mischief to which they were, involuntarily, parties. As the law now stood, they could only grant leases at the full value; and what he proposed by this Bill to effect was, that the Commissioners should be authorized, for the purpose of providing dwellings for the poor, to dispose of the Crown estates upon such terms as might seem proper to them, and as further might be approved of by the Treasury.
The EARL of LINCOLN, while he hoped there would be full opportunity given before the second reading to consider the whole subject, must even at that stage of the proceedings enter his protest against the Bill. The noble Lord, he assured him, could not be more anxious to better the condition of the poor, whether by improving their dwellings or otherwise, than he was; but he did not think the course about to be adopted by the noble Lord would effect the desired end, whilst it would very prejudicially affect the whole system of
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management of the Crown Property. It was well known that the hereditary revenues of the Crown were guarded, and in the most stringent manner, from any diminution. Those hereditary revenues of the Crown were placed at the commencement of each reign, by an arrangement with the Sovereign, in the hands of the Commissioners of Woods, as trustees between the Crown and the public; and they were bound, in the execution of that duty, first on behalf of the public, to see that the income was appropriated in the best possible way; and, secondly, on behalf of the Crown, to see that the estate was not diminished in any way whatsoever: so that in the event of the demise of the Crown, the now Sovereign (who might not like to renew the present arrangements with the public) on his accession might receive those estates which belonged to him, undiminished and undeteriorated. If the noble Lord were allowed to take this first step to the diminution of the revenues, there would be no knowing where the noble Lord and his successors might stop. Indeed, the probability would be, that the noble Lord would be overwhelmed with applications to infringe on that property, either by making grants of land, or (as in the present Bill) by selling at a high price under its real value. He was opposed, therefore, to any diminution of the hereditary possessions of the Crown, for any, even for charitable purposes. If the object were to meet the circumstances of the poor, who might suffer injury by improvements of the streets of the metropolis, rather let money be voted for that purpose. But to the Act of the 10th Geo. IV., they should rigidly adhere, which regulated the administration of the revenues of the Crown. He had, however, another objection to this Bill. It was proposed to sell these lands below their value to an incorporated company formed to provide dwellings for the poor. Now the charter of this company allowed a dividend not exceeding 5 per cent upon the shares; and in the very probable event of that amount not being realized, it was obvious that the Crown lands would be sold not for the benefit of the poor, but for the benefit of the shareholders. He felt strongly therefore that, though the object of the noble Lord might be good, in the first place the means by which he proposed to attain it were not legitimate; and in the second place, even if legitimate, they would not be successful. Having stated generally those objections, he would re-

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serve farther observations until the Bill was before them.
MR. HUMEconsidered that the Bill was a direct invasion of the principle so long recognised, the making the people dependent upon their own resources; and he strongly objected to it.
Leave given.
Bill brought in and read a first time.
House adjourned at Six o'clock.