Commons Sitting of 30 April 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public. — 1o . Exchequer Bills (9,379,600 l.); Courts of Common Law Process; Courts of Common Law Process (Ireland); Court of Session (Scotland) Process.
2o . Canal Companies Tolls; Canal Companies Carriers.
3o . and passed:—Sheriffs (Wales); Calico Print Works.
Private.—2o . Epsom and Dorking Railway; Erewash Valley Railway (No. 2); Reversionary Interest Society (No. 2); South-Eastern Railway (Branch to Deal, and Extension of the Canterbury, Ramsgate, and Margate Railway); South-Eastern Railway (Maidstone to Rochester); Eastern Union and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (No. 2); Boileau's Divorce; Waterford and Limerick Railway.
Reported.—Blackburn Waterworks.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Ffolliott, Mr. G. Hamilton, and Viscount Northland, from several places in Ireland, for Encouragement to Schools in connexion with Church Education Society—By Mr. Brotherton, from James Wilkinson, for Alteration of Jewish Disabilities Removal Bill.—By several hon. Members, from a great many places, against, and by Viscount Jocelyn, Viscount Castlereagh, and Sir Robert Peel, from several places, in favour of the Grant to Maynooth College. — By Mr. Sergeant Murphy, from Kinsale, for Abolition of Ministers' Money (Ireland).—By Mr. Bright, from Aldwinkle, for Substituting Affirmations for Oaths.—By Sir J. Yarde Buller, from Deanery of Pydar, for Amendment of Law respecting the Rating of Tithes.—By several hon. Members, from a great number of places in Wales, against the Union of St. Asaph and Bangor.—By Mr. C. Bruce, Lord Dalmeny, Mr. Fox Maule, and Mr. Bannerman, from several places in Scotland, for Abolition of Tests in Scotch Universities.—By Mr. Bright, Sir J. Easthope, and Mr. Strutt, from Guiseborough, Leicester, and Derby, against the Importation of Hill Coolies into Colonics.—By Mr. Borthwick, and Mr. O. Duncombe, from Worcester, and Richmond, for Relief from Agricultural Taxation.—By Mr. Charteris, from Gloucester, for Defraying Charge of County and Police Rates from Consolidated Fund.—By Mr. Borthwick, from Burstall, for Inquiry (Anatomy Act).—By Mr. Lockhart, from Glasgow, in favour of Arrestment of Wages (Scotland) Bill.—By several hon. Members, from a great many places, for Diminishing the Number of Public Houses.

CONDITION OF THE LABOURING CLASSES.
Lord John Russellwould take that opportunity of asking a question of
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the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) with respect to the Notice which stood in his (Lord John Russell's) name on the Paper for to-morrow—he alluded to his Resolution with respect to the condition of the labouring classes. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman wished to go into Committee on the Maynooth Bill on Friday, and as his Resolutions would probably lead to an adjourned debate, he was very unwilling to interfere with the Order of the Day with regard to the Maynooth Bill. He wished to consult the convenience of the House and of the right hon. Gentleman, and was, therefore, quite willing to postpone his Resolutions. As it was very uncertain on what day he might be able to bring them forward, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would appoint some day which would be convenient to the Government, and on which he might feel certain of being enabled to introduce his Resolutions, without interfering with the discussion on the Maynooth Bill. Would the right hon. Baronet give him a fixed day—say next week?
Sir R. Peelthought the best course which could be adopted under the circumstances, would be to fix the third reading of the Maynooth Bill for Monday the 19th of May, so as to give the noble Lord the Monday following, the 26th.
Resolutions postponed until after the Whitsuntide recess.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.
On the Motion that the Order of the Day be now read,
Sir James Grahamsaid, that he observed that the first Order of the Day was the second reading of the Bill introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson). He (Sir James Graham) was anxious that the hon. and learned Gentleman would not press the second reading that day, and that he would consent to defer it until after the holidays. He had stated to the hon. and learned Gentleman that a Commission had been appointed, which had under consideration many points included in that Bill. As yet the Commission had not reported; but Her Majesty's Ministers expected the Report at an early day. When they had the advantage of that Report before them, it might then become the duty of the Government to propose some measure on the subject. Under these circumstances, he felt justified in asking the

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hon. and learned Gentleman, not at this moment, and in the present imperfect state of information on the subject, to press the Bill. He would, therefore, request the hon. and learned Gentleman to postpone the second reading until an early period after the recess.
Mr. Watsonwas extremely anxious to have his Bill read a third time and passed before the close of the present Session. The Bill which he now sought to carry had passed a Committee of the House of Lords last Session, and was altered on the Motion for its re-commitment in that House. He had no doubt that the matter involved in the Bill had been referred to persons with whom he was very well acquainted, and who, he knew, were perfectly competent to judge of the subject; and he must say, that if he had the assurance of the right hon. Baronet that his Bill should not receive any obstruction further than merely making it conformable to any Report which might be made by the Commission alluded to, he should not press it at that moment. Unless he had that assurance he must insist on going on upon the present occasion. All that he then wanted was, that the second reading of the Bill should take place, and that the discussion upon it should take place in its after stages. He was as anxious as any person that no impediment should be offered to the full consideration which he was sure those excellent persons who had been placed upon the Commission would give to the subjects before them. But, unless the assurance to which he had already alluded were given him, he wished to be allowed to take one step with the Bill, and would then wait until the Government were in possession of the Report for which they were looking.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that nothing was farther from the wish of the Government than to obstruct the progress of the Bill, or prevent the fair discussion of it. To show that the very contrary was their desire, the first instruction given to the Commission was to give attention to this very subject. The Bill of the hon. and learned Gentleman was confined to England. The operations of the Government Commission were of a much wider extent. The instructions given to the Commission were to inquire not only into the penal laws affecting Catholics and Dissenters in England, but also in Scotland and Ireland; and questions had been already referred
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to the Lord Advocate, and he believed to the Irish Attorney General. The hon. and learned Gentleman, therefore, would not think it unreasonable, that before they affirmed the principle of the Bill, even though it should have passed through a Committee of the other House, and although it had come to them recommended by the learning and experience of the hon. and learned Gentleman, that when an inquiry was pending before a Commission composed of such Gentlemen of the profession as they could all have confidence in, Her Majesty's Government should wish to have the advantage of seeing the Report of the Commission before they proceeded any further with this Bill. He had every reason to believe that the Government would be in possession of the Report spoken of at an early period after the recess. If they were disappointed in that hope, he would not then be in a condition to ask of the hon. and learned Gentleman the further postponement of his Bill; but he was sure that at the present moment the hon. and learned Gentleman would acknowledge, on reflection, that the request which he (Sir J. Graham) made was not an unfair one.
Mr. Watson, after the observations of the right hon. Baronet, would not press the second reading of the Bill on the present occasion. He hoped that it was distinctly understood that he would avail himself of the first opportunity afforded him, after the recess, to move the second reading of the Bill, unless an equivalent measure were brought forward by the Government. But he saw so much inconvenience arising from the large nature of the inquiry by the Commission, who are to inquire into the penal laws which affected all classes of religionists throughout the country, that he could not help believing that the Government would find great difficulties lying in its way. The principle which he wanted to establish was that all penal laws, affecting persons as regarded their religion, should be blotted out of the Statute book, to which they had so long been a disgrace.
Order for second reading of the Bill postponed.

ARRESTMENT OF WAGES (SCOTLAND) BILL.—
Mr. T. Duncombesaid, that he had hoped to have been allowed to pass this Bill that night through another stage. It was his wish to place the working classes in Scotland on precisely the same footing as were those in England and Ireland, by

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relieving them, as well as their employers, of a system vexatious to the one, and extremely oppressive to the other. But he found that there were very great difficulties in removing altogether the arrestment of wages, and also that the most conflicting opinions prevailed in Scotland itself upon the subject; and as he had seen several parties from Glasgow and other places, he had promised these individuals, after the representations which they made to him, that he would make some modifications in his measure. These gentlemen had promised to forward to him the draft of a Bill which they thought would meet the views of all parties. He had had communication with the Lord Advocate upon the subject, and must say that, considering the opinions entertained upon the matter, the gentlemen alluded to seemed to have taken a fair and liberal view of it, and were prepared to make such concessions as were likely to lead to unanimity. As he understood them, they were prepared to say that the arrestment of wages should never exceed more than one-half, and that the Commissioners should have the power, in reducing that half, to take into consideration the circumstances of a man and his family. He did not know whether this would suit the views of the Lord Advocate or not; but, when the Bill should be sent up to him, he should think it his duty to send it to the learned Lord for his approval. It might appear presumptuous in him thus to interfere in questions relative to the affairs of Scotland. But it must be borne in mind, that this matter had been already in the hands of Scottish Members several times; but as there was always a sort of local influence which interfered with the progress of the Bill, it was on all these occasions abandoned. He knew that great alarm was felt on the part of many in Scotland, that by abolishing the system included in the Bill, they should give encouragement and hold out a premium to the truck system. He had told the deputation from Glasgow that no one could hold that system in greater detestation than himself. Some more stringent clauses should be introduced into the Bill against the truck system in Scotland. The only way in which they could make them more stringent would be, that, after the first penalty, when a man was convicted of being guilty of the offence, no matter what his wealth or station might be, he
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should be subject to imprisonment for its repetition. Parties in Scotland would have no objection to a clause or clauses of this nature. If such clauses should be introduced they would not come within the scope of his Bill. The best course, therefore, would be to withdraw the Bill, at present, altogether, and begin de novo when the draft of the new Bill should come to his hands. He now asked leave to have the Order discharged for the second reading of the Bill, on the condition of permission being given him, at a future time, to introduce another Bill, when all parties had agreed as to the proper provisions of such Bill.
The Lord Advocatewas understood to say that difficulties existed on this subject which did not at first appear. He did not think it altogether safe to follow out the sweeping course which the Bill proposed. He approved, however, of the course now taken by the hon. Gentleman, and could a measure on which all parties could agree be devised, he was not prepared to say that he would withhold any assistance which it was in his power to give to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. F. Maulesaid, that the hon. Member for Finsbury alluded to the fact that the Bill introduced by him into the House had not prospered in the hands of Scottish Members who had formerly taken it up. The reason of that was simply the many difficulties which lay in the way of such a measure.
Sir J. Grahamobserved that the question was one of extreme difficulty. They should take care that they did not abolish the power of arresting wages, unless they took further precautions against the spread of the truck system. He could not, of course, anticipate what measure would be introduced; but he was quite sure the Government would give all the assistance in their power to the promotion of the object the hon. Member had in view.
Mr. Rutherfurdconsidered that there ought to be no arrest of wages, except in execution. He coincided in the propriety of preventing the extension of the truck system.
Mr. Duncombe, in reply, suggested that the Lord Advocate ought to undertake the conduct of such a measure as this.
Bill withdrawn.
House adjourned at six o'clock.