Commons Sitting of 21 March 1844

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT.—For Christchurch, v. Right Hon. Sir G. H. Rose, acc. Stewardship of Manor of Northstead.
BILLS. Private.—1o. Taff Railway; Dingwall Police. Reported.—York and Scarborough Railway; Brandes Burton Inclosure.
3o. and passed:—Rochdale Gas; Lancaster and Carlisle Railway; Great Western Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Wyse, from the Loyal National Repeal Association, for Inquiry into the State Proseeutions.—By Mr. J. A. Smith, from Leith, for Reduction of Duty on Tea.

STATE PROSECUTION (IRELAND).—
Mr. Wysepresented the petition, of which he had given notice on Tuesday, from the Members of the Repeal Association of Ireland, and others, complaining of the manner in which the late State Prosecution had been conducted, and praying that an immediate inquiry might be granted, with a view of enabling the petitioners to establish the truth of the allegations contained therein. He could state with truth, that this was no ordinary peti-

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tion in respect to the numbers who had signed it, to the wrong complained of, or the period at which it was presented to the House. It had received in the short interval of three weeks, not less than 821,334 signatures; nor were these names collected at hazard, but on the contrary, received with all due precaution to verify their authenticity, and to preclude, as much as possible, all chance of fraud; he could speak with certainty on this subject: he was in possession of a complete analysis of the number of petitioners sent from every part of the country, divided into counties, and each county again divided into parishes. It appeared from that analysis that every portion of the country, north, south, east, and west, had concurred. The north, indeed, in proportion to its population might he considered, if anything, more zealous than the south. Monaghan had contributed 20,329; Down, 22,525; Donegal, 20,041; Antrim, 26,410; Cavan, 47,340; while Clare had sent in 9,648; Kilkenny, 12,327; Kerry, 12,880; Meath, 23,755; Galway, 36,395; Dublin, 39,799. This was evidence that it was not a local movement; and he might, with equal truth infer, it was not one of party or sect. Nor was less diversity observable in the several classes who had pressed forward. The names comprehended all classes as well as persuasions. The names of the Catholic hierarchy and clergy were to he seen intermingled with those of the principal inhabitants, merchants, and traders of each place. The following Corporate bodies had also signed it:—The Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of Dublin; the Mayor and twenty-nine Members of the Corporation of Cork; the Mayor, and fifteen Aldermen, and Town Council of Sligo; the Mayor, and twenty-four Aldermen, and Town Council of Kilkenny; the Chairman, and twenty-four Commissioners of Longford; the Chairman and seven Commissioners of Armagh; the Chairman, and fifteen Commissioners of Dundalk; by fifteen Commissioners of Galway, the Chairman, and fifteen Commissioners of Kells; by ten of the Commissioners, and by the Clergy, and Poor Law Guardians of Mallow; the Mayor, and twenty-four of the Aldermen, and Town Councillors, and Burgesses of Clonmel; by nine of the Commissioners of Kinsale; and by the Chairman and eighteen Commissioners of New Ross. Every precau-
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tion, as had already been stated, had been taken to guard against unauthorised and fictitious signatures. Each person signing was required to add his place of residence. Every Care was taken that the subject matter of the petition should be explained fully before the parties were allowed to sign, and that no name should be permitted to be affixed without the fullest consent of each individual. He did not believe there had ever come from Ireland a Petition where more scrupulous accuracy had been sought and observed. He was quite sure there had never appeared before that House from Ireland a Petition signed by a greater number. He now turned to the Petition itself, and though he was debarred by the regulations of the House from reading it, and going into any discussion on its details, and though he had determined to bring later the whole matter by a substantive Motion before the House, he could not pass by so momentous a document without slightly referring to its several allegations. The Petitioners refer to the meetings held in various parts of Ireland to exercise their equal right of petitioning Parliament for the Repeal of an Act of Parliament which they considered prejudicial to their interests; that although several millions of people attended those meetings, and no breach of the peace occurred; that although those meetings continued to be held for several months, no declaration of their illegality by the functionaries of the Crown, or of the determination of Government to suppress them, had been made until the 8th of October, when the meeting at Clontarf had been announced, and the mode in which the Government interfered to prevent that meeting, the Petitioners complained of as being an unlawful interference with the right of the people. They then referred to the late State trials, and complained that the most unjustifiable means h ad been resorted to by the law officers of the Crown to procure a conviction. They complained of the striking out the names of the Roman Catholics from the panel, and of the statement of the Attorney-General, that if the Bill against the traversers were found "the would undertake to establish the existence of as wicked and foul a conspiracy as ever existed in this Empire." This they alleged was calculated to produce a prejudicial effect on the minds of the Jury, against the traversers. That statement, however, the

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Attorney-General had failed to prove. They also complained of the charge of the Lord Chief Justice to the Jury, as being partial against the traversers, and they further declared that if an inquiry were granted, they would undertake to prove that the Chief Justice had invaded the province of the Jury, by expressing an opinion as to the fact, while in doing so he suppressed every thing that was favourable to the traversers—and that all the circumstances connected with those proceedings were calculated, and had had the effect of inducing great distrust in the minds of the Irish people in the administration of justice in Ireland—that they infringed the right of Trial by Jury, and the right of meeting to petition Parliament—and they prayed that an immediate inquiry might be granted with a view of enabling them to establish the truth of the allegations contained in the Petition. This was not a mere Petition to this House—an ordinary complaint of grievance; but a solemn remonstrance—a dignified but determined protest, in respectful but not less firm language, of the people of Ireland, against what they considered the greatest wrong which could be inflicted—the greatest injury which could be aimed at the liberties of a country. With regard to the circumstances of the times, he should not now break through the regulations of the House by referring to them; indeed it was needless; they were present to every man's mind. He trusted, however, he had said enough to justify the intention then expressed, that, on an early day, he would move for a Committee to take the charges of the Petition into consideration. He moved that the Petition be brought up.
Petition brought up, read, and laid on the Table.

WEST INDIA IMMIGRATION.
Mr. Vernon Smith,understanding from the papers laid upon the Table of the House, that inquiries had been instituted by the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, addressed to the Governors of Trinidad, Jamaica and Guiana, as to whether it would be adviseable to relax the rule which prevailed of only admitting a proportion of women, amounting to one-third, in any Immigration which might take place into those Colonies; and also understanding that answers had been received favourable to such relaxation from the Governors of the Colonies, wished to know whether the noble
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Lord had acted upon the information thus obtained?
Lord Stanleyreplied, that in consequence of communications from Sierra Leone stating that great difficulty had resulted from the restriction alluded to, in prevailing upon men who were desirous of immigrating to West India Colonies to go thither, he had written to the Governors of Jamaica, Trinidad, and Guiana, to inquire whether, in their opinion, a relaxation of the rule as to the proportion of two men to be admitted, would be adviseable. Their answers had only been received four or five days ago: and, although the papers containing them had been immediately laid before the House, no actual steps had yet been taken in consequence of the information communicated in them.

IMPORT DUTIES.
Mr. Ewartrose to move the following Resolutions:—
"That it is indispensable to the maintenance and extension of the Trade of this country, that those duties be repealed which press on the raw materials of manufacture, especially the raw materials of the woollen and cotton trade. That it is expedient also that those Duties be greatly reduced which press on articles of interchange in return for our manufactures, especially such articles of interchange as, at the same time, concern the subsistence of the people; being (besides corn, which is the subject of superior and separate consideration) such articles as tea, sugar, coffee, bacon, butter, and cheese. That it is expedient that those Duties also be greatly reduced which, by their amount, encourage smuggling; being at once injurious to the revenue and dangerous to the morality of the country; such as the Duties on tobacco, silk goods, and foreign spirits. That whatever temporary deficiency of revenue be caused by such reduction, ought, until the revenue regain its former amount, to be sustained by the property, and not by the trade and labour of the country."
He conceived that there were many advantages attending the bringing forward and promoting the discussion of commercial measures of a general nature. Public opinion on such occasions cast its shadow before, and that which an individual Member of the House advocated as expressive of public opinion might hereafter become the subject of Parliamentary legislation. It was with that conviction that he brought forward his Motion. He asked the House to consent to the proposition of removing duties which pressed upon the raw mate-

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rial of manufactures. In doing so, he asked them to sanction a principle already introduced by the right hon. Gentleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, but he asked them to carry it further. It was generally admitted to be impolitic to tax the raw elements of our manufactures, but if there be any time at which it was most impolitic, it was in a time of peace, and at the same time of national difficulty. Our cotton manufacturers had to resist a competition almost unexampled in the annals of the trade. Whether we looked to America, to Germany, or to France, we found that our manufacturing prosperity was in danger; and he therefore thought, that even on that ground alone, the House was bound to reduce the duties on the raw material of manufactures. He maintained, however, that such a step was particularly politic in time of peace, because then prices necessarily became low; and, in proportion as the prices of raw material fell, the proportion of duty to the cost price of production increased. Low-priced cotton was also extensively used, to the duties upon which the same argument would apply. Much of the wool also used now was low-priced wool, coming from the banks of the Plate. A similar sort of wool was also imported from the Mediterranean; and as such commodities came to be more generally in use, the duty upon them was more severely felt than when it fell upon the high-priced German wool. The consequence was, that the wools of South America and the Mediterranean were generally exported, to be manufactured in other countries, and thus to enrich foreign manufacturers. He conceived, then, that he had good reason for calling upon them to repeal the duties affecting the raw materials of manufactures, This was the first part of his proposition, and he maintained, that by the repeal of those duties, they would add to the employment of the people. He wished, too, to increase their means of subsistence, and with this view he called upon the House to extend our commerce in tea, sugar, and coffee, and also in bacon, cheese, and butter. These might be called the household articles of commerce and they were unquestionably of the greatest importance to the poor. America had abstained from levying duties on the articles of tea and coffee, and he asked the House to follow the example thus set to it. But, besides, we were now anti-
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cipating an extension in our trade with China; but no such anticipations could be realised if they did not enable the Chinese to give us something in return for our manufactures. We must, if we increased the sale of our manufactures in China, take an increased quantity of some article in return from them, and that article must be tea. The consumption of tea in this country had remarkably increased of late years, and so had that of coffee and sugar. These articles had become of more importance to the people than they had ever been, for they had acquired those habits of temperance which were so honourable to them, but so unknown to their forefathers. Taking the whole amount of tea consumed in this country at 40,000,0001bs., about 22,000,0001bs. consisted of that sort called Congou, which was principally consumed by the poorer classes, and, therefore, a reduction in the duties would be a great relief to the poor. The present duty was 2s. 1d. per lb. upon tea of all sorts, and of course it pressed with greater severity upon the more coarse than upon the finer qualities of tea consumed by the rich. When the tea duties were altered, upon the opening of the Chinese trade, a discriminating rate of duty, favourable to the import of the teas consumed by the poor, was attempted to be introduced. It was proposed to divide the classes of tea imported into three sorts, to be charged respectively with 2s., 1s. 6d., and 1s. per lb. of duty. Great difficulty was anticipated, however, in judging of the qualities of the teas; and at length an uniform duty was suggested, and which was the parent of the present duty of 2s. ld. Now, whether we looked to the prospects of our trade in China, or to the interests of our own poor, a reduction in the tea duties appeared equally just and politic. When the duties on tea were reduced in 1768, the consumption was doubled. In 1784, the duty was 1s., or about 67 per cent. Mr. Pitt reduced that duty, and the consumption rose immediately from 5,000,000lbs. to 10,000,000lbs., and in two years from 5,000,000lbs. to 17,000,0001bs. By reducing the present duties on tea, they would be enabling the poor to use not only a cheaper but a purer beverage. He would only allude slightly to the subject of the sugar duties, hut he would maintain that these duties were most oppressively felt by the poor consumers, and on looking over the annual circulars printed

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with respect to the trade, he found accounts of a great increase in the quantity of impurities mixed up with the sugar. The lowest-priced sugars contained nearly 10 per cent. adulterated matter. With respect to coffee it was well known that the consumption had greatly increased. In 1811 there was only one coffee-house in London—that was to say, one establishment devoted to the sale of that beverage only—while at present the number amounted to upwards of 2,000. It was well known that in 1801 the duty on coffee was a very high one, amounting to 1s. 6d. per lb. The consumption, then, in this country did not exceed one pound per head for all the population. In 1811 the duty was lowered to 1s., and the consumption increased to five pounds per head. As long as the duty remained at 1s., the consumption was stationary; but when the former was reduced to 6d. per lb., he need not remind the House how rapidly the latter increased. The case of coffee was, indeed, a remarkable instance of the equality preserved between the reduction of duty and the increase of consumption. The consumption was always in the inverse ratio of the duty. The right hon. Baronet opposite had, indeed, reduced in some degree, the duty upon coffee in his Tariff; but although he reduced it in amount, he had not done so in proportion. In fact, the position of foreign coffee was rendered more unfavourable than before. Now, he asked for a reduction of duties upon tea, sugar, and coffee. He might be blamed for introducing so many articles into one proposition; but he believed, that by the increased consumption of one of them, the effect of any reduction of duty on another, would he fully made up to the Revenue. He had asked them to remove the duties upon the raw materials of manufactures—to lower the duties upon articles of subsistence; and he now asked them to turn their attention to those duties which had always been held as incentives to smuggling. Not a day passed but some poor seaman was dragged up at Liverpool, on the charge of having contraband tobacco in his possession. To put the trade upon something like a fair footing in the article of brandy, the duty ought to be reduced one-half. That this was the most expedient course, was proved by the fact, that in former cases, where the duties were reduced, the Revenue increased. Chemistry was made subservient
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to smuggling; and brandy was introduced in considerable quantities, in the shape of naphtha. It would be a great advantage to this country if brandy was introduced in a larger quantity, for it was wanted for many pharmaceutical purposes. Mr. Huskisson reduced the duty on silk 30 per cent. ad valorem; but this was too high by half. He came now to the articles of butter and cheese. On the one there was a duty of 20 s. per cwt., and on the other one of 10 s. 6d. He could not understand, when the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Robert Peel) reduced the duties on salt provisions, why he omitted those two most important articles to the poor. He was afraid it was because the right hon. Gentleman found the cheese interest too strong to contend against. The indirect taxation which pressed so much on industry, was owing to the ascendancy of the landed interest. Sir R. Walpole gave the sanction of his authority to this principle; but in the concluding years of his Administration, he acted on the views so long maintained by the present Opposition.
House counted out, and Adjourned at seven o'clock.