Commons Sitting of 25 May 1842

MINUTES.
BILLS. Private.—Reported.—Yate Inclosure; Bates's Naturalization; york Cathedral; Indemnity; Mutual Marine Insurance Company (No. 2),
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. M. Phillips, and Mr. Evans, from Roman Catholics of Foxcote, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, New Mills, Manchester and Salford, for the Equalization of Civil Rights.—By Major Beresford, from the Owners of Fishing Vessels, for the Daily Supply of the London Market, against the Proposed Scale of Duties of Foreign Fish.—By Mr. Sergeant Jackson, from Limerick and Fermoy, against the Fisheries (Ireland) Bill.—By Lord Elliott, from Kerry and Cork, in favour of the Fisheries (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. J. S. O'Brien, from Wick, Pulteney Town, and Limerick, against the Reduction of the Duty on Rope and Cordage.—From South Shields, against the Alteration of the Differential Duties between East India and Carolina Rice.-From the Governors of the Ballygan Dispensary, and Ballina Fever Hospital, and Castle Cormor Dispensaries, against placing such Institutions under the control of the Poor-law Commissioners.—From the Citizens of Waterford, for the Establishment of a Daily Communication between Breendown, in the Bristol Channel, and the Port of Waterford.—By Mr. Lyall, from Owners of Vessels, and others interested in the Whale Fishery, against the proposed Reduction on Oil and Whalebone, the Produce of Foreign Fishing.—From Kirby, Bedon, Cromer, Wood-bastwick, Kippswith, Bastwick, Gresham, Great Yarmouth, Clavering, and other places, for Inquiry into the System of Education pursued at Maynooth College.— From Tickinhall, and Finchingfield, against any further Grant to Maynooth College.—From the President and Vice-Presidents of the Society of Attorneys and Solicitors of Ireland, for the Repeal of the Act 4 and 5, Will. 4, for facilitating the Loan of Monies on Landed Securities In Ireland.—From Lismore, for Alteration of the present System of Education (Ireland).—From Attornles at Tiverton, for the Repeal of the Stamp Duty on their Certi. ficates.—By Mr. Aglionby, from Wheatley, for further Limitation of the Hours of Labour of Young Persons in Factories; and from Keswick, for the Abolition of the Duty on Foreign Wool.—From Halifax, for a Clause in the Parish Constables Act to Indemnify Overseers for their Expenses in carrying the Act into effect.—By Mr. S. Wortley, from Huddersfield, Shelley, Lingards, Kirkburton, and other places, for the Repeal of the Poor-law Amendment Act.—From Crewkerne, for the Amendment of the Law of Rating Tithes.—By Mr. Villiers, from Manchester, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—From South Shields, against the proposed Reduction of the Timber Duties.—By Mr. Shaw, from Ballyrashane, for declaring Valid Marriages solemnized by Presbyterian Ministers in Ireland between Members of the Established Church and Protestant Dissenters.—From Tarn worth, Liverpool, Prescot, Ashton, Warrington, and other places, against the Turnpike Roads Bill.

POOR-LAW ASSESSMENT ACT.
Sir R. H. Ingliswould ask the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, whether it was his intention to renew the Parochial Assessment Act, which would expire in two months? There was a great evil in the frequent renewal for a short period of important acts.
Sir J. Grahamreplied, that he had already stated that the whole subject of rating must come under discussion; he did not think it desirable to introduce a matter of such difficulty in the Poor-law
738
bill; but as he anticipated that it would be necessary to bring the whole subject of rating before the House next Session, he would renew the present bill for one year.

RAILWAYS—LOCKING IN.
Sir R. H. Inglisasked the Vice-President of the Board of Trade whether her Majesty's Government had made any recommendation to the different railway companies on the subject of locking in, and whether those railways which had hitherto felt a reluctance to accede to public opinion, had complied with such recommendation.
Mr. Gladstonemust state, as a matter of justice to the Great Western Railway, that till recently the officers of the Board of Trade had not come to any definite conclusion in their own minds as to locking the second door on railways, so as to lead the Board of Trade to address the railway companies on the subject. It was only recently, and after the accident in France, that any recommendation had been made to the Great Western Railway Company; it was now under the company's consideration, he had no reason to think that they would adhere with pertinacity to regulations adopted by them, but they would no doubt show every reasonable desire to meet the wishes of the public.

CUSTOMS ACTS—THE TARIFF — BACON.
On the motion of Sir R. Peel, the House resolved itself into committee on the Custom's Duties Bill.
On the item that the duty on bacon be 14 s. cwt.
Mr. Milessaid, he wished to direct the attention of the House to the effect of a differential duty upon hams between the colonies and the United States. They might look for a great importation of salt meat from the United States, and in that case, coming by New Orleans, the freight would be 1s. 6d. and the duty 8s. per cwt., making altogether 9s. 6d.; if the Americans, however, wished to import it through the Canadas, the freight would be 4s. 1d. and the duty 2s. 6d., making altogether 6s. 7d. per cwt. In the case of bacon and hams, the duty, if taken directly from America, would be 14 s.; if from the Canadas only 3s. 6d.; the same freight would be applicable whether taken by the river to New Orleans or down Lake Erie. So a hundred weight

739
of hams, if sent to New Orleans, would pay 1s. 6d. freight and 14 s. duty, altogether 15 s. 6d. If, however, sent through the canal and by Lake Erie, it would be 4s. freight, and 3s. 6c?. duty, making altogether 7s. 6d., so there would be a difference of 8s. in favour of transporting through the Canadas rather than by the natural channel. He had risen merely to submit this to the House: he thought it worthy the attention of the right hon. Baronet, as relating to the subject of differential duties.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that of the two doctrines announced by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Ho wick) and by an hon. Gentleman last night, the one for imposing no new differential duties on the productions of the colonies when imported into this country—the other, of placing the colonies in this respect on a footing with the rest of the empire, as if an integral portion of it—he certainly preferred the latter. With respect to the item now under discussion, he thought that, considering the difficulty of transit, except at one part of the year, from the Western States to Canada, heavy goods would not be much carried to evade the duty.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, this was true of cattle, but not of provisions; for of many of the Western States the, St. Lawrence was the natural outlet, and it was of great political importance to this country so to keep it. There was a commercial body in Canada as well as an agricultural one, whose interests ought to be attended to. He considered the boon which was bestowed would be diminished if the Government refused to allow the importation of provisions across the borders into Canada from America. By allowing that importation provisions might come into this country at a lower rate, and it would have a tendency to increase the commercial relations between both.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, the same means would be adopted for the prevention of fraud in the importation of provisions into this country from America through Canada as were now used to guard against fraud with respect to the importation of American flour.
Viscount Howicksaid, he thought her Majesty's Government ought to impose a duty on all bacon introduced into Canada from the United States of America. If they adopted the principle of the differential duties, they must introduce what
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was really United States bacon, under cover of being Canadian bacon, at a lower rate of duty than if it came by its natural channel. Instead of fixing a duty, as now proposed, of 14 s. on the bacon of foreign countries, and 3s. 6d. on that of the colonies, he would ask, whether it would not be more reasonable to adopt a lower and intermediate rate of duty, which would be applicable to all bacon. He did not wish to go back to the discussion of the general question of differential duty, but he must say, that he believed it to be impossible to place our colonies on the same footing as English counties. The fair way would be to impose the same rate of duty upon articles, come from what country they might, and not. give the colonies any advantages by a false principle of differential duty.
The proposed rate of duty on bacon and other provisions was agreed to.

BUTTER.
The clause that the duty on Butter per cwt., on importations
from foreign countries; andon importations from the colonies—
On the question, that the blank be filled up with the words twenty shillings.
Lord J. Russellwished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, why it was intended to maintain the duties on butter and cheese at such high rates. He had understood, that it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to impose a low rate of duty on those articles. He had no doubt that a considerable amount of revenue was derived from them; but as they were articles of extensive consumption, he deemed it very desirable that the principles of reform which had been applied to other articles should be extended to these.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, that one reason which had led the Government to maintain these rates of duty was that a very considerable amount of revenue was derived from this source.
Laboucherethought, that if the duty on these articles were reduced, the revenue would suffer no loss from the reduction; for if a diminution of revenue should, in the first instance, result from such a step, he had no doubt it would soon regain its present amount.
Viscount Howicksaid, at the moment the Government were telling the House, that they were keeping up this duty for the sake of revenue, they were reducing the same article, the produce of the colo-

741
nies, to one-fourth its present rate of duty. The result would be, that the consumer would not get the relief, but the revenue would be damaged by the introduction of American under the name of Canadian butter. He should move an amendment:
"That the duty levied upon butter from foreign countries, shall be 10s. instead of 1l."
He trusted the House would adopt this. If they were to risk the revenue, by lowering the duty on colonial butter, at all events, let the consumer have the advantage.
Sir R. Peelwas surprised, that the noble Lord did not carry out his own doctrine, and propose, that the duty on colonial timber should be 10s. also, for, certainly, it was entirely in opposition to the principle which the noble Lord had placed on record, to propose a discriminating duty as between foreign and colonial butter, which was, however, the effect of the noble Lord's motion. He hoped, that the House would not assent to that motion; the greater part of the butter imported into this country was derived from Holland, and if any one continental country had a decided advantage as to the importation of butter, he doubted whether the proposal of the noble Lord would realize that benefit to the consumer here which was anticipated. This was a question involving 400,000 l. or 360,000 l. of duty, and the noble Lord said, that if the Government were making experiments in reducing the revenue, they (the Opposition) ought to have a hand in it. He doubted whether that was a perfectly legitimate course of proceeding; but the Government had proposed measures which would occasion as great a defalcation in the revenue as the finances would bear. The noble Lord said they were about to obtain 4,000,000 l. by the Income-tax; but be-fore he made any further reduction in the revenue, he would like to see that amount realised. When they got 4,500,000 l. or 5,000,000 l. then let them consider further reductions, but when he brought forward the additional estimates, it would be found that he had not overrated the financial demands of the country. He was told on one side of the House, that he was dealing roughly with the manufacturers of the country, and on the other, that he was J injuring the agricultural interest; but he found, that when they came to articles, as butter, a reduction of the duty was sure to
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be proposed on the opposite side of the House; and he begged his agricultural Friends to compare the practical course adopted on the opposite side of the House with the soothing expressions which were sometimes used towards them. All those soothing expressions, he hoped, would be weighed in the proper balance, and that hon. Members would set against them, the present proposal of the noble Lord.
Mr. T. Duncombesaid, the right hen. Baronet need not be under the slightest apprehension of his Friends not supporting this duty. The fact was, after the reduction on horned cattle, it was given them as a sort of sop and set-off. But it was clear, that the amendment must produce a reduction to the consumer; that was the common-sense point. He believed it was an ascertained fact that three-fourths of the butter and cheese imported, was consumed in the metropolis. The public looked to a reduction in the price of living, and they looked to these two important articles, cheese, and butter, and found no reduction.
Mr. O. Goreshould be sorry to see the tax on butter reduced, on behalf of the poor agricultural labourers. They lived by their labour, and the production of butter and cheese gave them employment.
Mr. C. Bullerwas not inclined to look on the two articles of butter and cheese, with indifference, because they were the necessaries of life for the people next to bread. When the hon. Member for Salop came forward, and invoked their sympathy on behalf of certain imaginary poor farmers who raised cheese, when it was a well known fact, that the great bulk of the cheese consumed was the produce of large dairy farms held by some of the richest farmers in the country, he asked their sympathy on behalf of the whole industrious population to whom cheese was, next to bread, the staff of life. If they were going to give away revenue, give it away on the necessaries of life, and not upon timber. The poor people did not eat timber as they were said to eat sawdust in some foreign countries. The right hon. Baronet was in want of revenue, and as he knew he would willingly receive all contributions, he would tell the right hon. Baronet, that he had greatly miscalculated the produce of the Income-tax; and he found also, the other day, that the right Baronet had miscalculated the rental of this country enormously. There had re

743
cently been a return moved for by the hon. Member for Limerick which proved this. The right hon. Baronet had calculated the rental as it was in 1816, and had calculated it at nearly 10,000,000 l. less than it was in the present year. [" No, no."] Yes; he had taken his pencil out, and put the larger sum at top, and the other sum below it, and had substracted the one from the other, and there was a difference of 10,000,000 l. On these grounds he thought the right hon. Baronet might give up the paltry revenue he derived from cheese.
Mr. C. Colvillesaid, that 15,000 cwt. of American cheese had been brought in within the last four months; and that had produced the most ruinous effects upon the Derbyshire farmers. He hoped, therefore, the Government would maintain a fair protection for the agricultural interest in respect to these articles; and with regard to cheese, he should hereafter move that the duty be raised from 6s. to 10 s,.
Mr. Wardwished the hon. Member would speak intelligibly; what the hon. Member thought fair protection he thought most unfair. The system of protection had been tried by hon. Members opposite, and had only produced distress; and he wanted to know why the right hon. Baronet would not try the opposite system advocated by his Friends. He thought the noble Lord's amendment one called for by the circumstances of the case, and he should give it his most cordial support. It would confer a great benefit on the whole consuming population of the country, and would be disadvantageous only to those engaged in the dairy farms.
Dr. Bowringsaid, he thought the proposed plan, with regard to foreign butter, would raise the price 2d. per lb. Butter was an article which constituted one of the greatest luxuries, or he might say, necessaries of the people. Would not the right hon. Baronet consider the interest of the poor consumers, who constituted the multitude, rather than that of the producers, who were the few? In leaving the duty upon butter and cheese as heavy; as it was before, a very unfavourable opinion of the tariff had been raised throughout the country.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the rich hon. Baronet had stated that the greater portion of the butter imported came front Holland, but from Mr. Meek's report it appeared that Kiel alone sent 2,000,0001b.
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to Great Britain. Having heard so often of late from the Vice-President of the Board of Trade that the population had increased greatly, and that it was most important to reduce the price of provisions, a principle in which he fully concurred, he was glad to have an opportunity of carrying it out by supporting the motion of his noble Friend.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, that the proposed reduction would not materially increase the amount imported, or consequently lower the price to the consumer.
Mr. Humethought this one of the most impolitic taxes that could possibly be levied. If the right hon. Baronet really meant (as he said) to relieve the distresses of the people he ought to take off this tax.
The committee divided on the question that the blank be filled up with *" ten shillings":—Ayes 59; Noes 115: Majority 56.

List of the AYES

Aldam, W.

Martin, J.

Barclay, D.

Mitcalfe, H.

Barnard, E. G.

Morris, D.

Bowring, Dr.

Napier, Sir C.

Browne, hon. W.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Busfeild, W.

Ord, W.

Byng, G.

Parker, J.

Childers, J. W.

Philips, G. R.

Clive, E. B.

Philips, M.

Cobden, R.

Rice, E. R.

Cowper, hon. W, F.

Russell, Lord J.

Craig, W. G.

Seymour, Lord

Crawford, W. S.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Divett, E.

Strutt, E,

Duncan, Visct.

Thornely, T.

Ebrington, Visct.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Escott, B.

Tufnell, H.

Evans, W.

Turner, E.

Fielden, J.

Villiers, hon. C.

Forster, M.

Wakley, T.

Gill, T.

Ward, H. G.

Guest, Sir J.

Wawn, J. T.

Hill, Lord M.

Williams, W.

Howard, hn. C. W. G.

Wood, B.

Howick, Visct.

Wood, C.

Hume, J.

Wood, G. W.

Hutt, W.

Wrightson, W. B.

Labouchere, rt, hn. H.

Yorke, H. R.

Lemon, Sir C.

TELLERS.

Loch, J.

Buller, C.

Marsland, H.

Duncombe, T. S.

List of the NOES.

Acton, Col.

Bell, M.

Allix, J. P.

Bernard, Visct.

Astell, W.

Bramston, T. W.

Baillie, Col.

Broadley, H.

Bankes, G.

Broadwood, H.

Baring, hon. W. B.

Bruce, Lord E.

745

Burroughes, H. N.

Kemble, H.

Chelsea, Visct.

Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.

Chute, W. L. W.

Knight, H. G.

Clayton, R. R.

Legh, G. C.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Lincoln, Eavl of

Colvile, C. R.

Lowther, J. H.

Conolly, Col.

Lygon, hon. General

Cresswell, B.

Mackenzie, T.

Cripps, W.

M'Geachy, F. A.

Darby G.

Mahon, Visct.

Denison, E. B.

Manners, Lord J.

Dickinson, F. H.

Marsham, Visct.

Douglas, Sir H.

Martin, C. W.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Master, T. W. C.

Drummond, H. H.

Miles, W.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Morgan, O.

Egerton, W. T.

Murray, C. R. S.

Egerton, Sir P.

Nicholl, rt. hn. J.

Eliot, Lord

Norreys, Lord

Emlyn, Visct.

O'Brien, A. S.

Esmonde, Sir T.

O'Brien, W. S.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Packe, C. W.

Farnham, E. B.

Pakington, J. S.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Palmer, R.

Filmer, Sir E.

Palmer, G.

Fitzroy, Capt.

Patten, J. W.

Follett, Sir W. W.

Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.

Ffolliott, J.

Plumptre, J. P.

Fuller, A. E.

Polhill, P.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Pollington, Visct.

Gladstone, rt. h. W. E.

Price, R.

Glynne, Sir S. R.

Pringle, A,

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Pusey, P.

Gore, W. O.

Reade, W. M.

Goulburn, rt. hn. H.

Repton, G. W. J.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Richards, R.

Greenall, P.

Rose, rt. hn. Sir G.

Grogan, E.

Round, C. G.

Hamilton, W, J.

Rushbrooke, Col.

Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.

Scott, hon. F.

Heneage, G. H. W.

Shaw, rt. hn. F.

Henley, J. W.

Somerset, Lord G.

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Stanley, E.

Hervey, Lord A.

Sturt, H. C.

Hodgson, R.

Thompson, Mr. Aid.

Hogg, J. W.

Tollemache, J.

Houldsworth, T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hope, hon. C.

Wortley, hon. J. S.

Ingestre. Visct.

Wyndham, Col. C.

James, Sir W. C.

Youug, J.

Johnson, W. G.

TELLERS.

Johnstone, H.

Clerk, Sir G.

Jones, Capt.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Blank filled up with "twenty shillings" and "five shillings" on colonial butter.

CHEESE
On the clause that the duty on cheese of or from foreign countries be the cwt., of or from British possessions. The question put that the blank be filled up with "ten shillings. "
Viscount Howicksaid, that the principle in this case being the same as in that which the committee had just decided, he should offer as far as he was concerned
746
no opposition to the proposition of the Government in respect to cheese.
Sir P. Egertoncalled the attention of the committee to the large quantity of cheese that had been imported into the country within the last six months from the western states of America. The result of that large importation had been that the price of Cheshire cheese had fallen in the market from 10 s. to 15 s. per cwt. He believed it was a consideration of these circumstances that had induced the Government to maintain the present rate of duty. The cheese-growers of the country were anxious to give every fair play to the colonial producer, but they feared that the American cheese would be brought in large quantities across the border into Canada, and thence imported into England as colonial produce. He therefore thought it advisable that the differential duty should be increased from 2s. 6d. to 5s., so as to protect the home-grower from the importation of American cheese in the way he had described.
Mr. Labouchereregretted that the Government had not greatly reduced the duty on cheese, as it was a most important necessary of life. He referred to a Cheshire Conservative newspaper, in which it was stated that the Conservative Members for that county had been enabled to influence the Government to keep up the protection on cheese, when it was reduced on most other articles of provisions. The article to which he alluded was in the Chester Courant, a respectable Conservative newspaper, and was as follows: —
"The new tariff lowers the duties on all provisions admitted into this country, excepting those on cheese and butter: the continuance of the present duty on foreign cheese ought, therefore, to be considered by fanners as a decided gain, and should be viewed by them in the light of a protection. for this advantage, agriculturists are indebted to the Members of our county; for, by their unremitting applications to the Board of Trade, and to their strong remonstrances with the board, they obtained the omission of foreign cheese in the regulations of the new tariff, which includes every other article of food. Our indefatigable Members were not, however, satisfied with this omission alone; they obtained an assurance from the Colonial Secretary, that all American cheese, in its transit through Canada, or any of the British North American possessions, shall be branded or marked on passing the border; so that the introduction of it into any port of Great Britain or Ireland shall not be allowed, without payment of the present duty on foreign produce. "
The hon.Members for Cheshire had probably been more energetic in private than in public, and to them, according to this paper, the country owed this result.
Sir R. Peelsaid, the right hon. Gentleman ought to make some allowance for the desire of the editor of a country paper to paint in glowing colours the Members for the county. He could only say, that in this, as in all other cases, he had acted wholly without deference to any local or political interest, as his right hon. Friend near him well knew. He could say, indeed, that he had never received any representations from the Members for the county of Chester on the subject. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman, upon his honour, that he had decided on this point without any communication at all with any party concerned in the matter.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, it was wholly unnecessary for the right hon. Baronet to dwell upon his disavowal; whatever fell from him of that nature must, of course, be received with implicit credence in the House.
Mr. Gladstonecould corrobarate what had been stated by his right hon. Friend, but he wished to re-establish in some degree the character of the hon. Members for the county. His right hon. Friend had said that they had made no applications to him; but the same could not be said with respect to the Board of Trade, for the hon. Baronet (Sir P. Egerton) and a considerable array of Gentlemen connected with the county had come forward and pressed the Board of Trade, not for the continuance of the present duty, but for a considerable increase of it.
Mr. T. Egertoncould so far confirm what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman as to say, that he had made many applications on this subject, to all of which a deaf ear had been turned. He was in favour of the protection, for unless the dairy farmers had due protection it would be impossible for them to compete with America.
Mr. M. Philipsfelt it due to the working classes, whose distress he had daily had an opportunity of witnessing, to make a distinct motion for the reduction of the proposed duly on cheese. He did not think, that because there existed a temporary depression in the trade in that article, the House ought to legislate as if the depression would be permanent. He did not think the farmers of this country
748
had anything to fear from the importation of cheeses from America. He feared, however, that from various causes inferior cheeses were now manufactured. In consequence of the great demand for butter, which was so essential an ingredient in good cheese, an inferior article was manufactured, in the composition of which there was little or no butter. The Government would do much better to yield on the article of butter, because then an article would be manufactured and brought to market with which no foreign cheese could compete in quality. The hon. Member concluded by moving a reduction of the duty from 10 s.6d. to 7s. 6d.
Mr. T. Egertoninformed the hon. Member that there were two kinds of cheese made in Cheshire, one an inferior kind, called" toasting" cheese, and the other a superior article, in which the butter was allowed wholly to remain.
Mr. Humedeprecated the adoption of any measures to discourage the importation of the produce of America, at the time when the United States were deliberating upon their own tariff, and when the resolutions they might adopt might affect our trade for years to come.
Mr. Cobdenremarked, that the increased importation of cheese from America had been accompanied by a decline in the importation from the continent. He rose, however, to protest against the attempts made by the landed interest to raise the price of food in the present condition of the community. He should not fail to remind the freeholders of Stockport, Ashton, and the other towns from which the Members for Cheshire derived influence at their elections, of the manner in which those hon. Gentlemen had endeavoured on this occasion to raise the price of an article of food so essential to the poor. How long would the landed interest still continue thus to drive on the working classes? How were those classes to subsist if every attempt to give increased facilities to the export of manufactures by the reduction of duties on imports was met by this perpetual cry of protection? The landed interest were driving the working classes on faster than they were aware of. If they understood their own real interest they would give every possible encouragement to manufactures as a source of employment to the poor. Upon the prosperity of the manufacturing interest depended the safety of the agricultural interest. If

749
the manufacturers were ruined, and were forced to transport the wreck of their capital to other countries, where they would be hailed with welcome, what would then become of the working classes? Destitute of employment, they would turn round upon the landed interest, and the land would have at last to be given up to those hungry mortagees, the poor.
Mr. Wakleysaid, although it was quite true that the right hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government had laid hold of the monster monopoly, and given it a terrible shake, yet it was a monster still, and both great and powerful. Last night the monster showed himself from Kent, to-night he had come from Cheshire. What would be the end of it all he knew not, but of this he felt sure, that if the agricultural interest could carry out their full scheme, there would be a revolution in this country in less than three years. They were even now pursuing a mad course. He only wished some of the hon. Gentlemen opposite would put forth their whole scheme of Government. They were now for increasing the duty on cheese. It was very fortunate indeed that the people could not eat wood. If the people could eat timber, what an outcry would be made against the right hon. Baronet for reducing the duties on timber. He would not have dared to reduce them. It was really monstrous for hon. Gentlemen to stand up in that House and object to the reduction of the duties on the food of a starving people., pretending that their zeal was all for the interests of the farmer. What did those hon. Gentlemen care about the farmer? Their real object was to keep up their rents, and for the sake of keeping up their rents they would maintain a system of protection the effect of which must be to reduce everything to anarchy and confusion. He must say, though, that the fault lay more with the House than with the right hon. Baronet: experience had shown that if that House were to make a strong demonstration against that system of protection, the right hon. Baronet would then turn round to his ultra supporters, and avow his determination to legislate for the whole people, and not for a class.
Mr. Darbydenied that the landed interest looked to themselves alone. They had willingly sacrificed the timber duties in order to bring the building of ships back to the country, and so give increased employment to the people. With regard to
750
corn, also, they had shown a readiness to adopt that system which, by abandoning high rates of duty, equalized the price of corn and prevented sudden rises in the price of food.
Mr. Wardsaid, it was the landed interest who would gain by the reduction of the timber duties. If the landed interest were determined to continue adding to the price of food, and refusing to do justice to the people, they must not be surprised if the day should come when the people would do justice to themselves.
Mr. Jerviscould not support the amendment of the hon. Member for Manchester, because he conceived, if the House were of opinion that there must be protection, that it ought to be an adequate protection. To the principle he was opposed, but the principle being maintained, he felt it due to his constituents to vote for the amount of duty proposed by the Government in preference to that moved by his hon. Friend.
Mr. F. Baringsaid, that the proposed reduction was so very small that he hoped the House would agree to it, particularly as it regarded an article which was, perhaps, next in importance to the article of bread.
Sir R. Peelthought, that the tenour of the observations made by hon. Gentlemen opposite would afford the House a fair opportunity of judging what the difficulties were which any one had to contend with who undertook to amend the commercial tariff of the country. When he saw the hon. Member for Chester enter the House a few minutes ago, he said to himself, "Here comes a fresh accession to the advocates of free-trade." The hon. Member however, while he took care to defend his general principles in favour of free-trade, said that on this occasion he must vote in favour of Chester. The hon. Member made use of an ingenious argument to justify himself in taking that course, namely, that protection ought to be done away with, but that the question being between a duty of 7s. 6d. and 10 s., he was obliged to come to the conclusion that the duty of 10 s. was the better of the two. He was listening to those ingenious arguments day after day, and he only referred to them now, in order to point out the real difficulties with which he had to contend. He therefore, hoped that the House would take the tariff as a whole, instead of trying to put him in a

751
minority upon individual articles. He thought that the wisest conclusion they could come to at present was to finish the tariff that night, and get done with it.
Mr. Humefully coincided in what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet, but he conceived that the difficulties with which he had to contend were mainly attributable to the Gentlemen who sat behind him.
Sir J. Guestsaid, that the duty proposed by his hon. Friend was too high and he would move that the duty be 5s.
Mr. M. Phillipshad not the slightest objection to a larger reduction, and only proposed a moderate one in the hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite would be induced to agree to it. The loss of one stray vote, however, in the hon. Member for Chester would not deter him from taking the sense of the House on the proposition he had made.
Mr. Greeneintimated that the question must be first put on the smaller amount of 5s.
The committee divided on the question that the duty be 5s.:—Ayes 37; Noes 82: Majority 45.

List of the AYES.

Barclay, D.

Mitchell, T. A.

Baring, rt. hn. F. T.

Morris, D.

Barnard, E. G.

Pendarves, E. W. W.

Bowring, Dr.

Philips, M.

Browne, hon. W.

Rice, E. R.

Busfeild, W.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Cobden, R.

Strutt, E.

Craig, W. G.

Thornely, T.

Crawford, W. S.

Turner, E.

Divett, E.

Villiers, hon. C.

Duncan, G.

Wakley, T.

Evans, W.

Ward, H. G.

Fielden, J.

Wawn, J. T.

Forster, M.

Williams, W.

Gibson, T. M.

Wood, B.

Gill, T.

Wood, G. W.

Hume, J

Yorke, H. R.

Lemon, Sir C.

TELLERS.

Marsland, H.

Guest, Sir J.

Mitcalfe, H.

Parker, J.

List of the NOES.

Allix, J. P.

Colvile, C. R.

Astell, W.

Courtenay, Lord

Baillie, Col.

Cripps, W.

Baring, hn. W. B.

Darby, G.

Bramston, T. W.

Denison, E. B.

Broadley, H.

Dickinson, F. H.

Butler, hon. Col.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Cayley, E. S.

Egerton, W. T.

Clayton, R. R:

Egerton, Sir P.

Codrington, C. W.

Eliot, Lord

752

Escott, B.

McGeachy, F. A.

Esmonde, Sir T.

Marsham, Visct.

Farnham, E. B.

Martin, C. C.

Fitzroy, Capt.

Newry, Visct.

Fuller, A. E.

Nicholl, rt. hn. J.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

O'Brien, W. S.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.

O'Conor, D.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Palmer, G.

Gore, W. O.

Patten, J. W.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Peel, J.

Greenall, P.

Plumptre, J. P.

Hamilton, W. J.

Polhill, F.

Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.

Pringle, A.

Henley, J. W.

Pusey, P.

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Reade, W. M.

Herbert, hon. S.

Richards, R.

Hervey, Lord A.

Round, C. G.

Hodgson, R.

Scott, hon. F.

Hogg, J. W.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Hope, hon. C.

Stanley, Lord

Jackson, J. D.

Sutton, hon. H. M.

Jermyn, Earl

Tennent, J. E.

Jervis, J.

Tollemache, J.

Johnson, W. G.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Jones, Capt.

Vivian, J. E.

Kemble, H.

Wortley, hn. J. S.

Knatchbull, right. hon.

Wyndham, Col. C.

Sir E.

Young, J.

Legh, G. C.

Lincoln, Earl of

TELLERS.

Litton, E.

Clerk, Sir G.

Mackenzie, T.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Duty to be 10 s.

ONIONS.
On the article of "onions" being proposed,
Mr. G. Palmermoved, that the duty of 1s. be substituted for that of 6d. This, he thought but fair towards a very poor class of growers, the more particularly as the reduction proposed by the Government was enormous, being from 3s. to 6d.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, that he had not the slightest hesitation in opposing this amendment, as it was entirely without grounds or recommendation. The hon. Member for Essex said, that the reduction was enormous. But why? Because the duty was enormous. The duty of 6d. was quite as large as the Government felt themselves justified in proposing, and would, he believed, amount to 30 per cent, upon the value of the article.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that by this reduction the people of Essex might be injured, but they were not on that account to follow the example of the hon. Member for Chester. If each Member were to look to the special instead of the general interests, it would be impossible for a Government to carry any measure of this nature. It was a most unfortunate thing for the

753
country that the House did not look more to its general interests. The hon. Member for Chester, for instance, having voted in favour of a protecting duty on cheese immediately left the House, consigning the question of onions to the protection of those hon. Members who represented the growers of that article. He sincerely hoped, that the independent Members of that House would give their assistance to the right hon. Baronet in the changes he was endeavouring to effect for the public good.
Duty agreed to.

POTATOES.
On the duty on potatoes being proposed,
Mr. S. Wortleysaid, it had been asserted, that potatoes from Holland and the coast of France would be introduced in such quantities at a low rate of duty as entirely to supplant the home cultivated vegetable. For his own part, he believed the statements on this point were highly exaggerated, but, as he understood her Majesty's advisers had made some inquiry into the subject, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would state the result of the investigation.
Mr. G. Palmerdeclared his belief, that the apprehensions entertained on this point were well founded. This was a matter of great agricultural importance, and involved the principle of our dependence on or independence of foreign nations for a supply of the means of sustenance. The point, too, was one of great consequence as regarded the cultivation. Hon. Gentleman had scarcely any conception of the amount of labour expended on this article, the cultivation of one acre of which gave treble the employment given by the cultivation of one acre of wheat, whilst the produce was also fourfold as great. He very much regretted the course the Government were taking on this and similar subjects. They had better beware in time, and check their course ere they went too far. He already saw that the free-trade current was setting so strong, that if Providence did not remove the mist from their eyes they would soon be cast on rocks, off which neither sail nor oar could get them. He would venture in this case, to ask that the protecting duty should he 1s. per cwt. instead of 2d., and would move an amendment to that effect.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, the reduction proposed to be made on the duty on this
754
article was considerable, but he would venture to say, that there was no one article in the tariff on which a reduction could be more properly effected. With regard to the apprehensions prevailing on the subject, he did not believe for his own part, that the reduction of duty would at all operate to reduce the prices in times of ordinary home supply. The bulk of the article and the cost of its conveyance were effectual impediments to importation when ordinary prices prevailed, and rendered the amount of duty to be imposed almost immaterial. The objects, however, which were sought to be accomplished by a reduction of the duty were somewhat important. The first was to enable the poor consumer to obtain a supply of the article when the home production fell short, and the price suddenly and materially increased; the second was to secure the introduction of a class of very cheap potatoes, used in the starch and the other manufactures, of which class our produce was, in fact, very inconsiderable. He believed it to be capable of demonstration that a greater protection was afforded to an acre of potatoes than was afforded to an acre of wheat.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that according to the explanation given by the Government, it would appear that no reduction would take place in the price of potatoes. He was of a contrary opinion, and he thought this was the best proposition in the whole of the tariff. He had no notion of soothing the monster-monopoly, and he did not hesitate to say, that the reduction likely to be produced in the price of potatoes must ultimately affect the price of bread. It was an awful change from the cry of "No surrender," followed by the Kentish fire, to find the present Government admitting, to a certain extent, the principles of free-trade.
Mr. Ainsworthcongratulated the hon. Gentlemen opposite upon the tariff as a whole, and this part of it in particular; he was sure it would be of the greatest service to the public, and he hoped it would be carried.
Mr. S. Wortleysaid, that hon. Member for Finsbury had misunderstood what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade. The right hon. Gentleman did not say that there would be no importation of potatoes; what he said was, that there would be no such great importation as

755
would at all injure the property of the potato-growers of England.
Mr. Escottdenied, that the farmers of this country were desirous of keeping up the price of potatoes. No good farmer wished to grow more potatoes than he could use in his own establishment; and though the hon. Member for Essex had come there to illuminate the Treasury benches, he could tell him that there were farmers who could very considerably illuminate him upon the subject.
Mr. Beckett Denisonsaid, though he and his Colleague represented, perhaps, a larger portion of potato-growing country than any two Members of that House, he could not feel justified in voting for the hon. Member for Essex. He considered that the proposition was one which would tend to alleviate the burdens of the working classes, and he should, therefore, vote with her Majesty's Government.
Amendment withdrawn.
Proposed duty agreed to.

ORES—COPPER.
On the 5th schedule (ores, minerals, metals, and manufactures thereof) being proposed.
Sir C. Lemonsuggested that it should be postponed for a few days, as a deputation on the subject from the county to which he belonged was expected to arrive to-morrow,
Sir R. Peelsaid, he really thought some better reason should be assigned for the postponement, as the county referred to by the hon. Baronet had had repeated opportunities of sending up deputations before. It was fairer to all interests that he should proceed as he stated in the outset— in the order of the tariff.
Sir C. Lemonsaid, the tariff, as regarded minerals, had undergone material change, and the people in Cornwall had not had a fair opportunity yet of considering it in its last form. An important meeting was held in that county on Monday last, and the deputation then agreed to was now on its road to London.
Sir R. Peelsaid, it would be better to proceed in the order of the tariff, for supposing that any reasons could be stated for a change in the schedule as it was now proposed, there would be an opportunity of stating them on a future day.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, that the five articles of copper first mentioned in the schedule, would stand the same in all respects, except one, and that was, that the 7l. 10 s.duty should not apply to any copper ore
756
which did not contain more than forty-five parts of copper. The reason for the change was, that the duty as first proposed would be a greater burden than the metal would be able to bear.
Mr. Turnermoved, that the following words be omitted from the tariff: —

" Copper, Ore, of viz.:—

£

s.

Containing not more than ten parts of copper, per ton of metal

1

10

Containing not more than 15 parts per ditto

3

0

Containing not more than 20 parts per ditto.

4

10

Containing not more than 25 parts per ditto.

6

0

Containing more than 25 parts per do.

7

10

And in place thereof, to insert—
" That there be a fixed duty of 7l. 10 s. on every ton of metal extracted from ores to be imported from foreign countries."
He felt, the greatest alarm as to the fate of the county of Cornwall, should not the Government give that consideration to this question which he thought it deserved for the interest of the country at large. The change that had taken place in the copper trade had rendered it necessary to make larger outlays of capital to meet the demands for our manufactures with respect to copper and tin produced by the mines of Cornwall, but notwithstanding those efforts there had been a great and progressive increase in the importation of foreign ore from Chili and Cuba. In 1832, the quantity imported, amounted only to 45,000 cwt., but in the year ending January, 1841, it amounted to 845,000 cwt., and for the year ending January, 1842, it had increased to 974,000 cwt. Now, the operation of that increase in the imports of foreign ore was most prejudicial to the trade in Cornwall, and the persons, not less than 40,000, who were employed in, and entirely dependent upon that trade; and if the duty now proposed by Government were adopted, it would not only be injurious to them, but to the country at large, and to the revenue. An hon. Member of that House, largely concerned in foreign mines, had told him, that before long, the foreign mines would certainly destroy our own Cornish mines. He put this matter to the right hon. Baronet as one affecting a dense population, which could not be turned over to any other employment; and in order to show how impossible it was for our Cornish copper

757
mines, without a fair protection, to compete with the foreign mines, he would mention a fact which seemed almost incredible, that either in Cuba or Chili, ten men, in three months, had raised as much ore as 1,500 men could in Cornwall. To him it appeared that it was as unjust as it was inexpedient to do any thing calculated to discourage the working of the Cornish mines. The right hon. Baronet might expect great advantage both to the revenue, and to the interests of commerce, from the changes which he proposed; but he might, nevertheless, find that he had been reckoning too confidently on results which were beyond his control; for no man acquainted with the subject would deny the probability of there being an admixture of ores, which would defeat all his plans as to revenue. It was said, that foreign ores would not be brought into this country; but was that quite certain? Surely, the Government ought to take measures for the purpose of ascertaining whether there was any probability that foreign ores would be extensively introduced. In all legislation upon this important subject they should not lose sight of the fact, that the stoppage of the Cornish mines would be the loss of income amounting to a million derived from the earth. True, it might be, that the miners were losing greatly; but if they were compelled to lose more by the operation of the new tariff, they would be quite ruined. The hon. Member concluded by urging on the Government the justice, not of prohibitory, but of perfectly protective duties for the peaceful and industrious inhabitants of a whole county, and for the valuable interests embarked in an extensive business.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, the motion was not at all calculated to carry out the objects of the hon. Gentleman, seeing that it referred only to a species of ore of which but a small quantity had as yet been introduced into the country. Even as to that ore, however, the motion was as futile as impolitic; for as this sort of ore was not worth more than 7l. 15 s. per ton, and as the freight of the foreign ore would consume 5l. of that price, it was manifest that with a small allowance for the expense of carrying the ore to the coast (even presuming that it was to be procured for nothing), there would belittle field for profit, and little fear of injurious competition. But the fact was, that whereas the policy of the tariff hitherto seemed to have been
758
to hold out a premium for the importation of refined ores, the Government deemed it a much sounder principle to facilitate rather the introduction of the rough ore, which would furnish more employment for our smelters. The hon. Gentleman had stated, that fifty mines had in a single year lost 49,000 l., yet he admitted, that there was a small mining interest growing up in Wales, and another in Ireland; such was the effect of those losses upon mining enterprises. The hon. Gentleman had also said, that ten men in Chili could produce as much copper in a given time as 1,500 men here; if that were the case, it was quite vain to attempt by any amount of protection to guard against such a state of things. With regard to the mines of Cuba, the effect of the tariff would be to leave them the same inducements to carry on their trade as there were at present. Then, with regard to the consumers of copper in this country, nothing was more important than that they should not be put to too expensive a charge for it, particularly the shipping interest and the manufacturers of copper articles, like those in Birmingham and Sheffield, who had been compelled to pay 10 l. per ton more than foreign consumers. That inequality it was proposed altogether to remove, and to effect that purpose, the present system of smelting copper in bond was to be done away with. In fact, that was absolutely necessary for the success of the present measure. But how was the proposed equality to be produced? The hon. Member supposed that there would be a great fall in the price of British, copper, and he spoke of a fall of 10 l. per ton. But surely facts were against the hon. Member? Did he mean to say that the price had fallen considerably since the publication of the tariff? He did not speak of the local effect of the tariff in Cornwall: but as far as he could ascertain, the decrease of price in the London market had not been more than 2l. per ton. There was a great difference of opinion as to the amount of duty at which foreign copper ore should be admitted for smelting in this country. He thought that if the duty was too high, it would have the effect of driving the smelting of copper ore to other countries; it would not only drive the smelting abroad, but it would check altogether its coming into this country. The hon. Gentleman bad stated correctly, that since the publication of

759
the tariff the price of copper had risen abroad. He anticipated much benefit from the change proposed in the tariff with reference to this article. He believed that it would have the effect of securing to this country the whole business of smelting foreign ores; and that, at the same time, a real protection would be afforded to the Cornish miners. The manufacturers, the consumers of copper, would also derive a great advantage from the alteration. On these grounds he opposed the motion of the hon. Member.
Sir C. Lemonexpressed his concurrence in the views propounded by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade with reference to the importance of smelting foreign ores in this country. He thought that we ought to make foreign nations as much as possible dependent upon this country. Whitbread, when speaking of the dependence of foreign countries upon our own, had remarked that the Americans would never shave themselves except with an English razor. He was willing to admit, that if the duty was raised too high on rich ores foreign countries would derive a great advantage from it. But that would not be the case with regard to ores of an inferior quality. He was prepared to admit that the present system was extremely vicious, and that the foreigner benefitted by it. If a large quantity of copper was introduced and a glut was occasioned, the effect would be to lower the price, and thus not only injure ourselves, but the foreigner likewise. He fully adopted the dictum of the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, that it was our duty to buy cheap and sell dear. The effect of the contemplated alteration would be so to lower the price of copper abroad that it would be out of our power to sell it at a high price. He understood that the Spanish government intended to increase the duty on copper ore. He thought that we ought to anticipate that increase of duty, and to derive whatever advantage was likely to result from it.
Lord Eliotplaced confidence in her Majesty's Ministers, and was determined to support their plans as a whole. He should not be doing his duty to the country at large, although he might be supposed to be doing his duty to his constituents, if he were to support the amendment.
Mr. Labouchereagreed so much in the views of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and those views had been stated with so much ability, that he should not trouble the committee more than a very few moments. There was no duty on our customs' list which produced more evil than this duty on copper. It really turned against ourselves those great national advantages which this country had in smelting and working metals. We supplied foreign countries with this manufactured article at a much cheaper cost than our own people; and he, therefore, rejoiced that her Majesty's Government had come to the conclusion that it was necessary to put this trade on a more satisfactory footing. It was, however, necessary carefully to watch these new duties, to prevent them inflicting injury on the great mining trade of Cornwall, on which so large a portion of our population depended. He should most cordially support the proposition of her Majesty's Government.
Mr. C. Bulleralso said, he should heartily support the Government on the present occasion. He felt that legislation upon this subject must very deeply affect the population of Cornwall, whose subsistence depended entirely upon the productions to which this item of the tariff referred, but at the same time he felt that at the present moment the producers of every commodity in the country were called upon to make sacrifices of their own particular interests, for the promotion of free-trade, and for the sake of the general interests of the community. The responsibility of determining what proportion of the burden should be borne by each class rested with the Government, and he should be ashamed of the miners of Cornwall if he thought they could be unwilling to bear their fair share.
Mr. J. E. Viviantrusted, that care would be taken by the Government that no injury be done to the mining interests in Cornwall by this measure.
Mr. Pendarvesconsidered the proposition of the Government a very hazardous experiment, for if the deep mines of Cornwall were once stopped they would never come into working again. The smelters of this country found the county of Cornwall the best market for the purchase of ores, and there was no doubt that their interests were intimately concerned in the question.
The committee divided on the question that the duty on copper ore containing not more than 10 parts of copper per ton of metal be 1l. 10 s.—Ayes 158; Noes 7: —Majority 151.

List of the AYES.

A'Court, Capt.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Ackers, J.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.

Ainsworth, P.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Aldam, W.

Goulburn, rt. hn. H.

Allix, J. P.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Bailey, J.

Granger, T. C.

Bailey, J., jun.

Greenall, P.

Balfour, J. M.

Grimsditch, T.

Baring, rt. hn. F. T.

Grogan, E.

Baskerville, T. B. M.

Hamilton, W. J.

Bernard, Visct.

Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.

Blackburne, J. I.

Henley, J. W.

Blakemore, R.

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Botfield, B.

Hervey, Lord A.

Bowes, J.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Bowring, Dr.

Hodgson, R.

Bramston, T. W.

Hope, hon. C.

Broadley, H.

Hornby, J.

Brotherton, J.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Browne, hon. W.

Howick, Visct.

Bruce, Lord E.

Hume, J.

Buller, C.

Hutt, W.

Byng, G.

Jackson, J. D.

Cardwell, E.

Jermyn, Earl

Cavendish, hn. G. H.

Johnson, W. G.

Chelsea, Visct.

Johnstone, Sir J.

Childers, J. W.

Jones, Capt.

Christie, W. D.

Knatchbull, right hon.

Clayton, R. R.

Sir E.

Cobden, R.

Labouchere, rt. hn. H.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Lambton, H.

Colvile, C. R.

Lefroy, A.

Corry, rt. hon. H.

Legh, G. C.

Courtenay, Lord

Leicester, Earl of

Cripps, W.

Lincoln, Earl of

Darner, hon. Col.

Litton, E.

Darby. G.

Loch, J.

Denison, E. B.

Lockhart, W.

Dickinson, F. H.

Lyall, G.

Divett, E.

MacGeachy, F. A.

Douglas, Sir H.

Mahon, Visct.

Douglas, Sir C E.

Manners, Lord J.

Douglas, J. D. S.

Marsham, Aisct.

Drax, J. S. W. E.

Marsland, H.

Drummond, H. H.

Martin, C. W.

Duncan, G.

Master, T. W. C.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Mitcalfe, H.

Duncombe, hon. O.

Mitchell, T. A.

Ellis, W.

Newry, Visct.

Eliot, Lord

Nicholl, rt. hon. J.

Escott, B.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

O'Brien, W. S.

Evans, W.

Packe, C. W.

Fielden, J.

Paget, Lord W.

Ferrand, W. B.

Parker, J.

Filmer, Sir E.

Patten, J. W.

Ffolliott, J. o

Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.

Forster, M.

Peel, J.

Fuller, A. E.

Philips, M.

762

Plumptre, J. P.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Polhill, F.

Stanley, Lord

Pollock, Sir F.

Stanley, E.

Pringle, A.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Reade, W. M.

Stanton, W. H.

Redington, T. N.

Struct, E.

Rice, E. R.

Sutton, hon. H. M.

Rose, rt. hn. Sir G.

Tennent, J. E.

Round, J.

Thompson, Mr. Ald.

Rushbrooke, Col.

Tollemache, J.

Russell, J. D. W.

Trench, Sir F. W.

Sanderson, R.

Verner, Col.

Sandon, Visct.

Villiers, hon. C.

Scholefield, J.

Wawn, J. T.

Scott, R.

Williams, W.

Scott, hon. F.

Wood, C.

Seymour, Lord

Wood, G. W.

Shaw, rt. hn. F.

Wyndham, Col. C.

Shirley, E. J.

Young, J.

Smith, A.

TELLERS.

Somerset, Lord G.

Clerk, Sir G.

Somerton, Visct.

Fremantle, Sir T.

List of the NOES.

Acton, Col.

Pendarves, E. W. W.

Gill, T.

Vivian, J. E.

Hay, Sir A. L.

TELLERS.

Lemon, Sir C.

Stanley, W. O.

Morris, D.

Turner, E.

IRON BARS.
On the question that iron bars, unwrought, be subjected to a duty of 1l. the ton (foreign), and 2s. 6d. (colonial),
Mr. Humealtogether objected to the imposition of any duty on unwrought iron. Even the small duty of 1l. the ton would be sufficient to injure the home manufacturer competing with foreigners.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, that the producers of the superior kinds of iron claimed to have protection like any other class of producers.
Mr. Parkersaid, during the eight or nine years he had been in Parliament, there had been scarcely a year in which his constituents, the manufacturers of the higher kinds of Sheffield cutlery, had not memorialized the Board of Trade for the reduction of the duty on unwrought iron.
Sir R. Peelhad the satisfaction of informing the hon. Gentleman that the Board of Trade had consented to take off one-third of the existing duty.
Mr. Parkerhoped that next year they would consent to its total abrogation.
Mr. Labouchereexpressed himself in favour of a further reduction than was proposed by the Government.
Mr. Villierscondemned it as a most unwarrantable protection.
Mr. M. Philipssaid, that every iron

763
manufactory in the country was interested in the reduction of the duty on this article.
Duty agreed to.
House resumed. Committee to sit again.
Adjourned.