Commons Sitting of 5 July 1842

MINUTES.
Bills. Public,—1° Linen Manufactures (Ireland).
2°Four Courts Marshalsea (Dublin). Reported.—Right of Voting (Dublin University); Charitable Pawn Offices (Ireland).
3°and passed:—Mines and Collieries.
Private.—1° Mostyn's Estate; Marquess of Tweedale's Estate;. Duke of Bridgewaters Estate; Lord Southampton's Estate; Verconsin's Naturalization.
2°Lord Sherborne's Estate; Gibson's Estate.
3° and passed:—Hawkes Divorce; Liverpool and Manchester Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From John Gumner, and Thomas Humphries, for Amendment of the Law for Imprisoning for Debt—From a Public Meeting held at the Crown and Anchor, Strand, praying into the cause of the Public Collieries.—From Governors of Clogheen and Cater Fever Hospitals, against placing Medical Charities under the
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Control of the Poor-law Commissioners.—By Lord Bernard, from Manorhamilton, Carrigaline, Kilgriffe, and Desart against the present System of Education (Ireland).—From Tregory, for the Repeal of the Poor-law Amendment Act.—From Hayfield Union, for the Alteration of the Poor-law Amendment Act.—By Mr. Muntz, from the Corporation of Birmingham, for Exemption from the Manchester, Birmingham, and Bolton Police Bill.—By Mr. Thomas Duncombe, from Roman Catholics of the Metropolis, for Equality of Civil Rights.—From a Public Meeting at Birmingham, for Inquiry into the Deaths of James Holberry and William Clayton, and the Release of Political Offenders—From the Members of the 4 Provident Building Societies of Sunderland, for the amendment of the Act 7, Will 4, for the Regulation of Benefit Building Societies.—From Prisoners in the Queen's Bench Prison, for delaying the Operation of the Queen's Prison Act,—By Mr. Leader, from Cornhill, and Bishopsgate, London, for the Redemption of the Tolls of the Metropolitan Bridges.—From Wm. Holmes, against the Municipal Corporations Bill-By Captain Pechell, from Mrs. Forbes, that her Husband, who had become Insane in the Naval Service, ought to be supported at the Public Expense.—From Chowbent within Atherton, for the Substitution of Affirmations in lieu of Oaths.—From Lochgarron, for Ameliorating the Condition of Burgh and Parochial Schoolmasters in Scotland.—From Glasgow, for Abolition of Church Patronage (Scotland).—From Dudley, for the putting down the Truck System.—From John Murray, against restoring Mr. Oliver's Pension.—By Mr. Ainsworth, from Thornten, Wilsden, Idle, Rawdon, Bradford, and Caverly (9 petitions), against the Mines and Collieries Bill.

DISMISSAL OF COLONEL DUNDAS.
Lord Worsleywished to ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, of which he had already given notice. He wished to know from the Secretary at War, whether a report had come under his observation that was in very general circulation as to the hon. Colonel Dundas having used language disrespectful to her Majesty. He wished to know whether the report he alluded to had come to the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman, and whether any inquiry had been made into the truth of that report. He should be most happy to learn that such was not the case—that no such circumstance had occurred; but if, unfortunately, it should be so, he should then like to know what were the steps that the official authorities had taken in the matter.
Sir H. Hardinge,in answer to the question put by the noble Lord, had to state, in reference to the hon. Colonel Dundas, that immediately upon the General Commanding-in-Chief becoming aware of the circumstance said to have occurred, called upon Colonel Dundas to furnish such an explanation as he might think it right to offer. Having given that explanation, the General Commanding in Chief felt bound to say, that Colonel Dundas had failed in absolving himself from the grave offence imputed to him of having expressed himself in terms disrespectful to

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her Majesty. Under these circumstances, the Commander-in-Chief felt it to be his duty to submit to her Majesty, that Colonel Dundas should be dismissed from his appointment as aide-de-camp to her Majesty, and further that Colonel Dundas should be removed from the command of the 83rd regiment, and placed upon the half-pay list. He had also to state that her Majesty's Government entirely concurred in this measure, and her Majesty had been pleased to signify her approval of the determination of the Commander-in-Chief.

COLLEGES OF PHYSICIANS AND SURGEONS.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that he had heard the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) was about to introduce a bill affecting the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons. He wished to know whether the right hon. Baronet intended to introduce in his bill a clause affecting the existing charters, and giving new charters; and whether, if that bill authorised the Crown to alter the existing charters, and grant new charters, it was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to act on such powers before the Parliament again met.
Sir J. Grahamreplied, that it was his intention to bring before the House a measure authorising her Majesty to grant a new charter to the college of physicians, and if the bill were carried, the new charter should be issued before the meeting of Parliament.
Viscount Sandonwished to know whether the charter would give the power to grant degrees.
Sir J. Grahamreplied, that it was not intended to give by the bill any such authority, because it was not wanted. Her Majesty could at present give the power of conferring degrees to any such body as her Majesty might think fit.
Lord J. Russellinquired, if it were not necessary to confer such powers, for what purpose were the new charters to be given?
Sir J. Grahamreplied, that on bringing in the bill he would state the nature of the proposed charter.
Mr. Ewartwished to know if it would exempt these colleges from the operation of the Medical Reform Bill.
Sir J. Grahamreplied, that his answer to this must be the same as to the last question. When he brought in the bill he should state the precise provisions of the proposed charter.
Mr. O'Connellwished to know whether there was any intention that the charter should affect the colleges of physicians and surgeons in I reland?
Sir J. Grahamreplied, that it was necessary to apply for powers to grant a new charter to any body, excepting one, in which the charter rested on a statute. The physicians were guarded by an act so early as the reign of Henry the 8th.
Mr. O'Connellobserved, that the physicians in Ireland had also an act of Parliament for their charter.

ELECTION PROCEEDINGS COMMITTEE— BRIDPORT
Mr. Cochranewished to address a few words to the House. He heard stated that indictments had been preferred against him, and as this might lead to a wrong inference, he wished now to mention that there had been an acquittal, no witness appearing against him. There was one point, however, to which he wished to refer. It was with respect to the consistency, kindness, and courtesy which the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was accustomed to show, whenever he found a friend in a difficulty. That right hon. Baronet had certainly made a statement, which led to an unfavourable impression respecting his conduct, and that was, when the right hon. Baronet stated that he had wished for a committee, and requested an investigation into the proceedings at Bridport. Now, if he could have acted in that manner, he would have been guilty of great inconsistency; but the truth was, he did no such thing. When Mr. Warburton presented a petition, he begged for an early day to be named to consider it, in order that he might refute it. Then, when the right hon. Baronet had agreed that that petition was to be referred to a committee, and the question came to be whether it should go before Mr. Roebuck's or another committee, he said, to save the time of the House, he thought it would be preferable that it should go before Mr. Roebuck's committee, but he never did say that it should be referred to a committee at all. He never did entertain the opinion that cases of bribery and corruption should go before a committee; he thought rather that the matter should be fully discussed in that House. He thought, too, after the avowal of the hon. Member for Finsbury, that he had spent between 30,000 l. and 40,000 l. at Hertford, he could not find much fault with the hon. Member if he admitted that he had been guilty of bribery

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and compromise. One thing he would say, however, which was this, that in appearing before the committee, he should give up no documents whatever, and should answer no questions but such as he thought fit. He would do nothing that might compromise others; for the bill indemnified witnesses, but not those to whom they referred. If they looked at the bill they would see what he stated to be a fact. He again said he was determined to do nothing that might injure others. For instance, a poor man might be deeply injured if it were known that he had received some money for his vote. He was determined not to give up the names of those who did him the honour of returning him, and placing confidence in him. Whatever might happen, he was determined on being guided by his own judgment. He mentioned this to save time. Upon one point he could not but congratulate the House—upon the perfect harmony that seemed to exist, and that had resulted from this committee. All must remember that when the hon. Member for Bath first rose to put a question on this matter, and a Member admitted he was guilty of a compromise, the hon. Member thanked him for his politeness; and now it was said that the urbanity, kindness, and courtesy of the hon. Member for Bath was quite astonishing. He supposed it was because the hon. Member sat in the Star Chamber, and did not use the thumbscrew? The conduct of the hon. Member for Bath hitherto must have been most extraordinary, because every one seemed to be surprised that he had not been insulted. He must say he did not see such wonderful courtesy in the hon. Member for Bath. The proceedings of the committee were now closed, at least the hon. Member for Bath had adjourned his committee till Thursday, and he announced his intention of conducting it in future on a different system. What this system would be, he did not know. His opinion was, that justice could never be obtained by unjust means, and an unconstitutional tribunal would not vindicate the law or the constitution. He begged to say that he should appear before the committee, but that he should only answer what questions he thought fit.
Subject at an end.

COLONIAL PASSENGERS.
Lord Stanley Lord Stanley moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of Colonial Passengers Bill.
Mr. Haweswas much surprised at the motion which had just been made. The noble Lord had told him that he would give him ample notice of the third reading of this bill. That had been the understanding between him and the noble Lord, and he now threw himself on that understanding, and appealed to the noble Lord not to persevere in his motion.
Lord Stanleytrusted that the hon. Member for Lambeth would not press his objection. He had given notice of his intention of proceeding with this bill upon the very first day of the Session. No opposition had been made to it, except one incidental objection made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lambeth to one clause, which objection he had agreed to take upon the third reading. He had certainly said that he would give the hon. Member opposite notice when he intended to propose the third reading, but the hon. Gentleman must be aware that, when he had fixed it for this evening, it was impossible that he could know what chance there would be of bringing it forward. There having been no House last evening, no Orders of the Day could be fixed except those which stood for consideration previously. The hon. Gentleman must be as much prepared as he was for entering upon the discussion; at any rate he would have an opportunity of raising the question which he wished to open upon a separate motion, a course which he had intimated his willingness to adopt. At this period of the Session, however, he could not well postpone the third reading of the bill.
Mr. Hawessaid, that the noble Lord was not quite correct in his statements. The noble Lord had admitted that he was to give notice to him of when the noble Lord intended to move the third reading of the bill; this the noble Lord had not done. The noble Lord, too, stated that he was the only person opposed to the clause in question. That was very far from being the case. Many hon. Members were opposed to it as well as he was; it was, indeed, a clause which the noble Lord himself had opposed last year. If he had the papers necessary for discussing the subject with him, he would not have made the objection. He stood on the admission of the noble Lord that the noble Lord was to have given him notice, which the noble Lord failed to do. As for there having been no House last night, that was the fault of the Government.
Lord Stanleysaid, he had certainly

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promised to give the hon. Gentleman notice of the third reading of the bill, and he had given him all the notice it was in his power to give. He was not aware on Friday night, when he fixed the bill for Tuesday, that he should have an opportunity of bringing it forward then; but, at this period of the Session, he should be anxious to bring it forward as early as possible. The House might be disposed to lose another night in forwarding the business of the country; but he could only say that any opposition to the passing of this bill would be felt as an inconvenience by many parties. He repeated that the question which the hon. Gentleman wished to open might be perfectly well raised upon a separate motion. He did not mean to say that he was the only hon. Member opposed to the clause, but he said that the only opposition of which notice had been given proceeded from the hon. Member. If the House, however, thought that the hon. Gentleman opposite had not had sufficient notice, he would not press the third reading upon the House.
Third reading postponed.

DEAN FOREST ECCLESIASTICAL BILL.
On the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the report of the Dean Forest Ecclesiastical Bill; and on the question that the amendment made by the committee to the bill, be read a second time,
Mr. Humesaid, that this was the time for moving the resolutions of which he had given notice upon this subject. The amount of public money to be voted in this case was not large, but the principle involved was one of great importance. The Dean Forest Ecclesiastical Bill was a bill to promote Church Extension, and for the application of public money towards this object. He considered that the present was a very inopportune time for such a bill to be brought forward, when the public finances were in a state of great difficulty, and when they had been obliged to impose an Income-tax in order to bring up the revenue to the expenditure. The House would remember that various efforts had been made to obtain from the Church that portion of her revenue which should be found to be superfluous, and such portions of it as by the abolition of monopoly and sinecures they found could be spared. It had been generally understood that when the hon. Baronet, the Member for Oxford, should have brought forward his
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motion for the appropriation of public money for the purposes of Church Extension, that it should be opposed upon the ground that it was wrong to grant to the Church more money until it was known that the revenues she possessed were properly applied. They had had a commission, with the view of inquiring into this state of Church property; and a bill passed through the House, enacting that certain sinecures should be abolished, and that the revenues thereby obtained should be paid to the Church commissioners, with the view of their being expended in providing religious instruction for parishes found to be deficient in that respect. He had moved for a return of the funds so paid to these commissioners, but had not yet received it, although it might have been produced in a day or in two. He considered the proposed expenditure of public money, under the name of being the revenues of the Crown lands, to be highly improper. There was no revenue arising which could be applied to this purpose. It was all appropriated as it was, and to vote money from the revenues of the Crown lands was voting public money, as much as if it was to be taken from the customs. He saw no reason for the vote of money now asked for, as the churches to which it was to be applied were already endowed better than were those of upwards of 5,000 parishes of England. It would appear that there were 5,251 curates in England, employed at salaries, the average of which was 81 l. per annum, and if the proposed vote was passed, the House might next be asked for a corresponding increase in the salaries of all other curates who were worse paid than those in Dean Forest. The revenue of the Church amounted to 4,000,000 l. of money, and before additional grants were made, a thorough inquiry should take place into the manner in which the revenues which she possessed were employed. Many objections were now made to the application of public money for the reparation of churches. And he thought that a sum amounting to 10,000 l. should not at once be granted to the Church without making rigid inquiries into the manner in which her revenues were disposed of. He should take the sense of the House against what he considered to be such an improper application of the public money. He wished to have proper instruction in every parish. He should be glad to have schools in every parish at the public expense, and wished

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that no child should grow up without the benefit of education. It was not, therefore, merely on the score of expense that he objected to the proposed vote of public money. It was upon this ground that it was a partial application of public money, taking from a community that money which belonged to all classes and sects, and applying it to partial and local purposes. As the money belonged to the whole community, it should be expended for the benefit of the whole community. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving as an amendment the following resolutions:—

"1. That the revenue from the Crown lands in the Forest of Dean is part of the revenue of the Crown lands transferred by her Majesty to the public exchequer of the country, in exchange and in consideration of the yearly sum of 385,000 l. sterling, granted by Parliament out of the public revenue for her Majesty's civil list, during her lifetime; and that any grant out of the revenue of her Majesty's Crown lands to endow clergymen, or for any other purpose, is a charge on the public revenue of the country, equally as if the same amount is paid from the revenue of her Majesty's excise or customs.

"2. That the revenues of the Church of England, as appears by the report of the ecclesiastical commissioners before this House, amounted to 3,811,507 l. sterling gross, and to 3,507,501 l. net income, from lands and tithes, exclusive of Easter offerings and fees.

"3. That, by the act 6 and 7 William 4th, c. 77, and subsequent act, it was enacted that various sinecures and other offices in the Church should be abolished, and reductions in the salaries of some of the clergy made as vacancies occurred; and that the revenues of such suppressed sinecure offices should form a fund, to be applied by the said commissioners to the augmentation of small livings, and to such other Church purposes as stated in that report.

"4. That, besides these large revenues of the Church applied to Church purposes, there has been paid out of the public revenue of the United Kingdom the sum of 5,678,751 l. sterling for the Established Churches in England, Ireland, and Scotland, between the years 1801 and 1840 both inclusive, besides many large payments in the British colonies for the support of the Church; and all these sums have been an addition to the national debt, the interest of which is now chargeable on the public revenue.

"5. That it appears by the bill before the House, intituled 'Dean Forest Ecclesiastical Districts Bill,' that the sum of 2,200 l. has been already paid by the Lords Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury, from Parliamentary grants, towards the endowment of the clergyman of the chapel of Holy Trinity, and that
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three of the clergymen of the chapels of the Forest of Dean have already yearly endowments to the amount severally of 118 l. 10 s. 6d., of 93 l. 13 s.., and of 74 l. 3s. 6d.

"6. That there were, as stated by the ecclesiastical commissioners in their report of 1835, 5,251 curates employed by incumbents, at salaries, the average of which amounted only to 81 l. sterling, and showing that many of these curates perform the ecclesiastical duties in their parishes for smaller incomes than the clergy of the Forest of Dean chapels already possess.

"7. That, therefore, in the present commercial, manufacturing, and financial difficulties of the country, and at a time when Parliament has passed an act to add by taxation three or four millions sterling to the burdens of the people, to meet the already sanctioned expenditure of the country, it is highly inexpedient to increase that expenditure by granting a sum equivalent to 10,500 l. of 3 per cents, from the public revenue of the country, for the endowment of the clergymen of the chapels of the Forest of Dean.

"8. That it appears by the bill, that in the year 1838 the commissioners of her Majesty's woods and forests, with consent of the Lords of the Treasury, invested the sum of 843 l. 15 s. from the revenues of the Crown lands, to purchase the sum of 1,000 3 per cent. Consolidated Bank Annuities, upon trust, towards the repairs of the fabrics of the said three chapels for ever, and the further proposed grant of money, equivalent to 333 l. 6s. 8d. of 3 per cent. Stock, the dividends of which are to be applied for the maintaining and repairing the fabric of these chapels, would be a precedent for paying Church-rates out of the general revenue of the country, and ought not to be agreed to."

Lord Lincolnremarked that the hon. Member had moved resolutions as long as the speech by which he had prefaced them. But that speech had little relation to the subject before the House, and the House would not expect him to go regularly through it; more especially as the subject had recently been discussed, and he had stated his opinions with respect to it. The first six resolutions now proposed purported to be purely statements of facts, but he would observe that they were by no means pure statements of facts. The present measure was founded on a new principle, but on one which was invariably adopted when the occasion called for it.
Mr. W. Williamscontended that this was a gross job. Such a measure for taking a large sum out of the public taxes at a time when the land was covered with distress and suffering ought never to be pressed by the Government. They had an interest, it was true, in getting it

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passed, as it gave a large share of patronage, but he should certainly give it every opposition in his power.
The House divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question:—Ayes 177; Noes 44: Majority 133.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Duff, J.

Acland, T. D.

Duffield, T.

A'Court, Capt.

Dugdale, W. S.

Adderley, C. B.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Ainsworth, P.

Dundas, D.

Antrobus, E.

Du Pre, C. G.

Arbuthnott, hon. H.

East, J. B.

Arkwright, G.

Egerton, W. T.

Ashley, Lord

Egerton, Sir P.

Attwood, M.

Eliot, Lord

Bailey, J.

Escott, B.

Baillie, H. J.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Baldwin, B.

Farnham, E. B.

Baring, hon. W. B.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Baring, rt. hon. F. T.

Feilden, W.

Barnard, E. G.

Ferrand, W. B.

Barneby, J.

Fitzroy, Capt.

Barrington, Visct.

Fleming, J. W.

Beckett, W.

Flower, Sir J.

Beresford, Major

Ffolliott, J.

Bernard, Visct.

Forbes, W.

Blackstone, W. S.

Fuller, A. E.

Bodkin, W. H.

Gaskell, J. M.

Boldero, H. G.

Gladstone, T.

Borthwick, P.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Botfield, B.

Gore, M.

Bramston, T. W.

Gore, W. O.

Broadley, H.

Gore, W. R. O.

Broadwood, H.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Brodie, W. B.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Buck, L. W.

Greenall, P.

Buckley, E.

Greenaway, C.

Buller, C.

Greene, T.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Grey, rt. hn. Sir G.

Campbell, A.

Grimsditch, T.

Cardwell, E.

Grogan, E.

Carnegie, hon. Capt.

Halford, H.

Cartwright, W. R.

Hamilton, W. J.

Cavendish, hon. G. H.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Chelsea, Visct.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Childers, J. W.

Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H

Clements, Visct.

Hardy, J.

Clerk, Sir G.

Hawkes, T.

Cochrane, A.

Henley, J. W.

Codrington, C. W.

Hervey, Lord A.

Colborne, hn. W. N. R.

Hodgson, F.

Courtenay, Lord

Hodgson, R.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Hogg, J. W.

Craig, W. G.

Houldsworth, T.

Cresswell, B.

Hope, hon. C.

Cripps, W.

Hornby, J.

Darby, G.

Howard, hn. J. K.

Denison, J. E.

Hughes, W. B.

Denison, E. B.

Irving, J.

Dickinson, F. H.

Jackson, J. D.

Douglas, Sir H.

James, Sir W. C.

Douglas Sir C. E.

Jermyn, Earl

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Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.

Patten, J. W.

Jones, Capt.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E

Pollington, Visct.

Knight, H. G.

Praed, W. T.

Knight, F. W.

Pringle, A.

Langston, J. H.

Protheroe, E.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Repton, G. W. J.

Lawson, A.

Richards, R.

Lefroy, A.

Rolleston, Col.

Legh, G, C.

Rushbrooke, Col.

Lincoln, Earl of

Russell, Lord J.

Litton, E.

Sandon, Visct.

Lockhart, W.

Seale, Sir J. H.

Lowther, J. H.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Lyall, G.

Sheppard, T.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Somerset, Lord G.

Mackenzie, T.

Stanley, Lord

Mackenzie, W. F.

Stuart, Lord J.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Sturt, H. C.

M'Ceachy, F. A.

Sutton, hon. H. M.

Mahon, Visct.

Taylor, T. E.

Manners, Lord C. S.

Thesiger, F.

Manners, Lord J.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Martin, C. W.

Trollope, Sir J.

Morgan, O.

Trotter, J.

Mundy, E. M.

Vesey, hon. T.

Newport, Visct.

Waddington, H. S.

Norreys, Lord

Wilbraham, hn. R. B.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Wood, Col. T.

Northland, Visct.

Young, J.

Pakington, J. S.

TELLERS.

Palmer, R.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Palmerston, Visct.

Baring, H.

List of the NOES.

Aldam, W.

Holland, R.

Barron, Sir H. W.

James, W.

Bernal, Capt.

Marsland, H.

Bowring, Dr.

Martin, J.

Brotherton, J.

Morris, D.

Browne, hon. W.

Murphy, F. S.

Busfeild, W.

O'Connell, J.

Callaghan, D.

Pechell, Capt.

Cobden, R.

Plumridge, Capt.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Roebuck, J. A.

Crawford, W. S.

Scholefield, J.

Dennistoun, J.

Scott, R.

Duncan, G.

Thornely, T.

Duncombe, T.

Villiers, hon. C.

Ellice, E.

Wall, C. B.

Elphinstone, H.

Ward, H. G.

Fielden, J.

Watson, W. H.

Gill, T.

Wood, B.

Gordon, Lord F.

Wyse, T.

Gore, hon. R.

Hastie, A.

TELLERS.

Heathcoat, J.

Hume, J.

Hill, Lord M.

Williams, W.

Hindley, C.

Main question agreed to. Bill to be read a third time.

SOUTH AUSTRALIA.
House in committee on the South Australian Acts.
Lord Stanleyrose to move the resolutions of which he had given notice respect-

991
ing the colony of South Australia. The noble Lord said it would be in the recollection of the House, that when the colony of South Australia was established, the management of its affairs was intrusted to a board of twelve unpaid commissioners. The provision of the act for the government of the colony was, that no burdens should be thrown on the mother country in consequence of the measure, but that the expenditure should be borne by the colony. It was, of course, necessary that provision should be made to defray the heavy expenses incidental to the establishment of such a society—expenses the amount of which seemed not to have been calculated upon by the originators of the scheme. Power was therefore given to the commissioners to raise a sum not exceeding 200,000 l., by borrowing on the future credit of the colony. Money was borrowed at an extravagant rate of interest, and the colony, without the means of defraying its current expenses, was soon saddled with a heavy debt of from 85,000 l. to 86,000 l., bearing interest at 10 per cent. The political administration of the colony was intrusted to a governor appointed by the Crown; but it was soon found that the division of authority thus made tended to paralyze the action of both departments of the colonial Government. In 1840 the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) thought it expedient to take the control of these matters out of the hands of unpaid commissioners, and placed it in the hands of commissioners acting under the immediate control of the Colonial-office. According to the arrangement made by the noble Lord, the same person was appointed resident commissioner, under the authority of the commissioners, and governor under the authority of the Crown. This got rid of the evil of having two separate authorities in the colony; but an inconvenience arose from the circumstance of the governor having, as it were, two masters, and receiving instructions of a very conflicting nature, which he knew not how to execute. In the meantime the affairs of the colony continued in a state of great confusion, and in July, 1841, they appeared to be rapidly proceeding towards a state of insolvency. The provisions with regard to the political administration of the colony which he proposed to introduce into the bill he wished to submit to the consideration of the House would closely follow the recommendations of the committee of last year, a power
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being reserved to her Majesty of establishing in the colony a popular representative system, when circumstances should appear to justify it. With respect to the financial difficulties of the colony, it would be recollected that last year an advance was made from the Treasury here to the colony of 155,000 l., which sum was to be repaid by the colony, instructions having been sent out to Colonel Gawler, to abstain from drawing any more bills on the Treasury in England, Colonel Gawler, on receiving these instructions, did not, unfortunately, comply with them. Acting on what he considered a pressing emergency, he applied to the Executive Council for advice, and continued to draw on the Treasury from the 17th of February, 1841, till the 24th of April, 1841, certain bills which were not honoured. On the 10th of May, 1841, Captain Grey superseded Colonel Gawler; and he found that the expenditure of the colony, which had been estimated by the committee of last year at 70,000 l., had considerably increased. The expenses of the public establishments was approaching to 94,000 l., and there were other expenses, from public works, and other sources, increasing the expenditure to 150,000 l., while the whole amount of revenue which existed to meet this expenditure did not exceed 30,000 l. It therefore became necessary to put a stop to this expenditure, and Captain Grey entered on the task with so much zeal and activity, that he reduced it to a sum not exceeding 34,600 l., effecting a saving of nearly 115,000 l. These measures of economy necessarily threw into distress a large amount of population, who depended for subsistence on the Government expenditure. Many of the works in the town of Adelaide, though at present unproductive, would unquestionably be of great service and utility to the colony ultimately. They had, now, however, attracted speculation towards them, withdrawing it from those other sources of public prosperity which, though more slow, were nevertheless more certain in their development. The result of this was the rising of prices, both of labour and produce; and when a practice of economy was introduced, a vast number of persons being thrown out of employment, received, under a plan which was obnoxious to great abuses, and entailed a heavy expense, support from the Government. Abuses similar to those which existed under the worst administration of the old Poor-law made their appearance,

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and in consequence of this, positive instructions were issued that assistance should be given to no person who refused agricultural employment at wages even below the ordinary wages of the colony. In consequence of this, agriculture was extending, prices falling, and at present a more healthy state of things was succeeding to that which he had always looked on as a false prosperity. He would now state the liabilities of the colony from 1835 to the end of 1842. There was the Parliamentary grant of 155,000 l. advanced last year as a loan, and which was to be repaid; and there was also a sum of 50,000 l. taken as a vote, which was, however, not a liability of the colony, though supplied at the cost of the mother country. It was clear that the amount of the bills drawn by the Governor previously to receiving instructions to abstain from drawing must be made good. The amount of the bills which Colonel Gawler drew, and which still remained unpaid, was 27,290 l.; besides those drawn already by Captain Grey, almost entirely on account of the emigrants, who were maintained at the expense of the public, amounting to 17,646 l. There was, moreover, as he stated to the committee at the outset, a sum of 85,800 l. borrowed by the commissioners in the first instance, which stood as a debt bearing interest from 6 to 10 per cent. Besides these, there were bills of Colonel Gawler, which he left outstanding, as money advanced to Government for various services, and which amounted in all to nearly 35,000 l. The whole of that sum was advanced by individuals in the colony, undoubtedly for the service of the colony, but all, he believed, after the governor himself and the colony were aware of the peremptory orders Colonel Gawler had received to abstain from drawing upon the Treasury for the future. Besides this, there was due from the general revenue of the colony to the land and emigration fund, supposing the original system to have been carried out, a sum of 84,697 l., which was the surplus realised by the sale of land, and which should have been advanced for the purposes of emigration, to which, it was pledged, but which had been advanced for the general purposes of the colony. Supposing, then, all those amounts to be defrayed, the total sum due from the colony up to the present time would amount to somewhere about 400,000 l. It remained for him to state the course which, upon a full consideration of the various claims and examination of their
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respective merits, the Government deemed it expedient to pursue. In the first place, he thought the House would concur with him, that in justice to those who had gone out on the faith of the Government, a colony which already numbered 15,000 souls, in which there was a vast amount of fixed capital invested, the imports of which were above 30,000 l, and the exports of which were rapidly increasing, ought not to be abandoned by the British Parliament for want of a small temporary assistance. At the same time, he went as far as those who said it was the bounden duty of the Government to make economical arrangements for the future, and to see that no fallacious expectations were held out, nor that any governor was to suppose that if he fell into lavish expenditure he had nothing to do but to draw bills upon the Treasury in this country. Captain Grey had reduced the annual expenditure to about 36,400 l, and at the present time the expenditure on account of pauper emigration was at the rate of nearly 24,000 l.; but he hoped that the measures of the Government would considerably reduce that in the course of the coming year, though it was not possible to put a stop at once to a system hitherto pursued. He had, however, reason to believe, that within the course of a very short time, if the credit of the colony were maintained by the determination of the Government to relieve it from its present embarrassment, a large portion of its first expenditure having been defrayed, the colony would be enabled to become a self-supporting colony, and to maintain its own establishments and expenditure. He did not anticipate, therefore, that it would be necessary for this country year by year to vote in the estimates any considerable sums, and he hoped not any sums for the ordinary annual expenditure of the colony. But to place it in that condition it was absolutely necessary to make arrangements to relieve it at all events from its most pressing difficulties. The revenue of the colony was estimated at 34,500 l., but the present expenditure would probably exceed that amount, without reference to the debt of the colony. As to the sale of lands, in the present state of the colony, he did not believe that there was any part of the Australian dominions which afforded a fair prospect to persons disposed to emigrate with certain capital, and to employ that capital in the purchase of land and agricultural labour, because the effect of the measures which had been

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taken had been to render the supply of labour superabundant to the amount of capital, and consequently to reduce the rate of wages. With respect to the sum of 155,000 l. advanced to the colony last year, by way of loan, he did not. think he called upon Parliament in this country to do too much to forego the payment of that sum. To insist upon the colony paying interest in the present state of its finances would be to pay with one hand and to receive with the other; and therefore, under the present circumstances of the colony, he did not hesitate to propose to Parliament to sacrifice any expectations they might entertain of the repayment of that amount of 155,000 l. and interest; and in the same manner he should propose, in the present year, to submit to Parliament the expediency of making good the amount of the 27,290 l. drawn by Colonel Gawler upon the Treasury, and which the Treasury felt bound to recommend to Parliament to sanction. These bills were accepted upon the confident expectation that Parliament would not refuse to make the expenditure. He proposed to ask Parliament further to sanction the expenditure incurred by Captain Grey chiefly for pauper emigrants, whom he felt it necessary, in the first instance, to maintain. That amount was 17,600 l. He should then propose a vote in the estimates of this year of 15,000 l., to enable the Government of the colony to be carried on in the present year, but that was intended to include another item which he would now advert to. There was a bond debt for money borrowed by the colony to the amount of 8 500 l.; that was borrowed at rates of interest varying from 6 to 10 per cent. It had been important that no statement upon that subject should be made until his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had had an opportunity of personal communication with the persons who held those bonds, and who claimed 10 per cent., the condition of the bonds being that the monies should not be paid off for certain periods, varying from five to ten years. His right hon. Friend had entered into an understanding with those persons that they should sacrifice their claim, not to the amount of those bonds, but to the 10 per cent, interest to which they were entitled, and that they should allow the amount of their bonds to remain outstanding, at interest of 3½per cent., that being guaranteed by the British Treasury; but being left a charge upon
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the revenue of the colony, which would enable the Government hereafter to claim it from the colony. That amount of interest at 3½ per cent, he proposed to be charged upon the Consolidated Fund, and he had referred to it in one of the resolutions which was submitted to the House. There was the further sum of 35,000 l., which stood on a somewhat different footing. That sum, for which no bills had at present been drawn, was for outstanding claims for sums advanced to the Government in the colony by persons, upon the full knowledge of the peremptory orders which Colonel Gawler had received not to draw any further bills: and upon those claims considerable inquiries would have to be made. They amounted, as far as he at present knew, to 35,000 l. Now, it was not proposed directly or indirectly to provide for that debt, except so far as the assistance which it was proposed to give to maintain the credit of the colony might enable it to pay a moderate interest upon it; and while, therefore, the Governor was afraid that the Government would not be prepared to recommend to Parliament to take upon themselves that amount, yet he had been authorized to issue in the colony debentures, with interest not exceeding 5 per cent.; and that security was proposed alone to be given to those persons who had advanced that sum of 35,000 l. The remaining debt of the colony was one which he might call a debt in the colony itself, and amounted to 84,600 l. The result, then, would be, that the debt of the colony, except the 35,000 l., would become a debt of the mother country, and the sum we should be called upon in the course of the present year, and he hoped not in any future year to pay, amounted to 59,900 l. He trusted, that except for very small amounts, which he hoped might not occur at all, this would be the last sum which it would be necessary to call upon Parliament to pay, in order to set the colony of South Australia in such a condition as to enable it in future to carry on its own affairs. He had felt it necessary frankly and candidly to give this explanation to the House, and he had endeavoured to place before them what was the actual condition of the debt of the colony, and what was the actual amount of sacrifice which the Government were now prepared to advise Parliament to make for relieving it from its present embarassment; but he hoped, that with such assistance the colony would be enabled, even if it made but

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slow, at least to make sure advances to prosperity, and that the changes in the colony, together with the measures affecting the land sales, which he had lately carried through Parliament, and the alterations in the constitution of the colony, made last year, would give the Government such a control over the affairs of that colony, as to prevent much of that disorder which had hitherto existed, and to maintain that control which they ought to have upon a distant settlement, and would be to the advantage and prosperity of the colony of South Australia. The noble Lord moved the following resolutions:—

"1. That provision be made out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland for defraying the interest or annuities arisen, or to arise upon, securities granted by the colonization commissioners for South Australia on account of that province.

"2. That any money which may have been advanced out of the said Consolidated Fund, on account of the colony of South Australia, in pursuance of an act of the fourth year of her present Majesty, shall be deemed to have been advanced in aid of the revenues of that province, and not subject to repayment to the said Consolidated Fund.

"3. That provision be made for the better government of South Australia, and the management of the revenues thereof."

Mr. Divettsaid, that the persons who first went out to that colony supposed that capital would do everything; out he had no doubt that under a better system of cultivation the colony would prosper. A great increase in the stock in the colony had taken place since its formation. The exports of the past year had exceeded 50,000 l., and, under all circumstances, he did think that good hopes of its eventual prosperity might reasonably be indulged. The subject was one which he could not advert to without saying that all who were connected with the colony must feel deeply indebted to the noble Lord for the attention which he paid to the interests of that infant community, and for the candid statement which he had on the present occasion made to the House.
Mr. Williamsdenounced everything that had been done respecting the government of the colony as presenting gross instances of jobbing and mismanagement. It was now proposed to incur an expense of 300,000 l. Now, it was worthy of notice, that the whole colony contained a population of only 15,000 persons; and yet there was to be an expense of 20,000 l. a-year for the maintenance of the paupers belong-
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ing to so limited a population. He knew it was useless to think of opposing the proposition of the noble Lord; but he really thought it would be better to give up the colony altogether than thus incur any further expense.
Mr. Mackinnondefended the expenditure for the use of the colony, on the ground that it was necessary in the first instance to send out complete machinery for the administration of justice, and, he added, that it was necessary to do so speedily and effectually. As to what had fallen from the hon. Member opposite, he must be allowed to say, that nothing could be more absurd than to think of abandoning a colony which, with fair treatment, might in time become as powerful as the United States of America.
Mr. R. V. Smithquite agreed with the last speaker in thinking that it would be highly inexpedient to abandon a colony so circumstanced as South Australia, and when reference was made to pauper emigrants, he must be allowed to say, that those Who were spoken of as the paupers of that colony were not parties who, by any conduct of their own, brought on the poverty under which they were now suffering. He concurred generally in the plans of the noble Lord, for they were, in a great degree, founded upon the view taken of this subject by the committee which sat last year, and of which he and the noble Lord were members. No doubt the expenses to be incurred were very considerable, but, of course, the noble Lord and his colleagues had given the subject mature consideration, and, with a full knowledge of the facts, had recommended an expense which they believed to be necessary. He had heard with cordial satisfaction the reference which had been made to the activity, vigour, and energy of his friend Captain Grey; and, on the whole, he entertained strong expectations that the establishment of the colony would eventually be quite successful.
Mr. Wardcould never be induced to concur in anything so cruel and unjust as to abandon a colony which we had founded under such circumstances, and one, too, which was rapidly advancing to a healthy condition. Its exports were increasing, and there was every reasonable prospect of its soon attaining considerable prosperity. Something had been said about the necessity of sending out. complete machinery for the administration of justice, and for otherwise regulating the affairs of the

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colony. Now, for his part, he should like to see more trusted to local government, and he thought it desirable that new colonies should, to some extent, at least, be thrown upon their own resources. In the resolutions proposed by the noble Lord he cordially concurred.,
Resolutions agreed to. The House resumed.

MINES AND COLLIERIES.
Lord Ashley Lord Ashley moved the Order of the Day for the further proceedings on the third reading of the Mines and Collieries Bill.
Mr. Ainsworthsaid, he had been requested, in the absence of the hon. Member for Bradford, to present fifteen or sixteen petitions from the working classes in the neighbourhood of Bradford against the bill of the noble Lord. It was not his intention to trespass long upon the House, having been advised by several persons who were deeply interested in this question not to oppose the measure in its present stage, but to let it go up to another place with all its faults and failings. He would, however, state some of the reasons why he disapproved of it. To the exclusion of women from collieries he had not the slightest objection; but he thought that just now their exclusion would increase the distress which already prevailed amongst the poor and labouring population of the country. The noble Lord was also determined to remove boys of nine years of age, and to prevent those of ten, eleven, and twelve years old from working more than three days in the week. If the bill passed in that shape, hundreds of children would be thrown out of employment, and hundreds of families would be driven into workhouses. By the clause which he had submitted, children would have been allowed to work five days in the week, limiting the hours of labour for the whole week to forty-five. The plan of the noble Lord was not practicable, and in that view he was supported by the opinions of practical men, who had informed him that in Bolton, the coal being of what is called a tender description, the working on alternate days only would not answer, it being necessary that the workmen should be in attendance every day. With respect to the mines of Staffordshire, the employment of boys on alternate days was wholly impracticable. An individual who had come up from Lancashire only a day or two ago had told him, that it was utterly impossible for him to have relays of boys in the neighbour-
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hood where he resided; and that out of 120 boys employed by him, sixty were uuder thirteen years of age, and thirty-two under nine years, and these would be entirely deprived of the means of subsistence, or they must go into the mines, and thus the noble Lord's bill would become a dead letter. In Scotland there were at least forty widows and their families who were entirely dependent on the labour of their children, and they would be compelled to go to the kirk for relief. A gentleman in his own neighbourhood had declared to him that the coal-masters cared not much about the bill; as long as they got their mines worked, they were indifferent as to the sufferings of their workmen; it was, in fact, a labourer's question. The effect of the bill would be to deprive many boys of work, and to reduce the wages of the rest 50 per cent. Mr. Buddel had explained how it was that the noble Lord had obtained the support of some of the proprietors of mines; his supporters were those who worked thick mines; but those who had to work thin mines could not but object to the practice of the boys labouring only three days a week. By the clause which he had submitted, children under ten years old would not have been permitted to enter a mine; they would not have to labour until they were able. The question really was, whether this labour was prejudicial to the health of the children? He would call attention to the reports of the commissioners. Many cases which had appeared in their reports were highly coloured. There was a case related of a little girl who had been taken before nobody knew whom, and great doubts were entertained of the accuracy of the story about her. The gentleman who owned the mine in which the girl was said to have been had made inquiries amongst his workmen, and could obtain no information as to any commissioner having taken the girl—who had died since—before a magistrate, or of any commissioner having examined into her case. If commissioners were sent to collect information, they ought to go at once to the fountain-head. But what was the condition of the boys? Those in the West Riding of Yorkshire were reported to have good food and clothing; they had bread and milk and porridge for their breakfast, large lumps of bread and cheese for their luncheon, and a hot meal on their return home. He wished all the poor children in Lancashire were as well fed; but by this bill they would all be re-

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duced to the same state of privation and suffering. The commissioners said, that when the parents were well conducted the children were generally well fed, and had a change of clothing every Sunday. What was the report of medical men in various parts respecting these children? He held in his hand statements from various professional gentlemen. In Durham and Northumberland their health was remarkably good, as was frequently shown by their speedy recovery from wounds. Comparing them with the children of agricultural and other labourers in North Wales, they had better wages, lived in better houses, which were better furnished, their clothing was as good if not superior, and they did not work more hours in the day. In South Wales the children enjoyed a greater share of good health than those of other workmen. Another medical man said—
"I cannot discover that the health of children of seven or eight years of age was affected by their daily subhumation for eight or ten hours. The colliers live like fighting cocks, and presented a realization of the sturdy and swarthy colliers."
The state of these children was much better than that of the factory children; but the effect of the noble Lord's bill would be to deteriorate their condition, and to aggravate the distress which already existed amongst the working classes. In the borough with which he was connected there was what was called a relief fund, from which, during the last year, the following persons derived assistance:—373 cotton-spinners; 370 weavers; 134 outworkers or working labourers; but only nine of the colliery population. The noble Lord had already interfered with the cotton-spinners, and gone such great lengths as to cause great privation amongst them, and the result of this measure would be the same with regard to the mining population. This question had been very properly termed the poor man's question—it was one which did not affect the rich, or one in which they took little interest. But he must say, as a county magistrate, that he would not be responsible for the public peace if the bill were carried into effect in its present shape, and another county magistrate had expressed himself to the same effect. He had witnessed the distress, want, and misery of the population in his own neighbourhood, and had been influenced only by one motive—that of benevolence, in the course he had taken with regard to this measure. The colliers had
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invariably withstood the overtures of Whigs, Tories, and Radicals, to get them to join in any political movement. They had said, "As long as we can by hard work gain a livelihood, we have no wish to enter into any political squabble." Would it not be better (as one of his correspondents inquired) for the noble Lord to be content with removing the women this year? Let him be satisfied with that for the present, and not be too hasty. Such a bill, if passed into an act of Parliament, would very likely introduce discontent and political agitation where they were unknown before, and the consequence might be serious. The colliers would repeal an act of Parliament much sooner than the House of Commons. With respect to that clause for prohibiting the entrance of children into the mines, he would ask, how could they prevent a man from taking his own children into a pit? They must have a policeman at every spot, and disturbances and affrays would continually take place. He assured the noble Lord, that he could not carry his bill into operation in its present state. That being his opinion, he wished to see that clause modified. There was another serious objection to the bill. No provision was made for the accidents which were of so frequent occurrence. He wanted to know how were these poor people to obtain their livelihood, if their hours of labour were to be so restricted? It was utterly impossible that such a bill could become the law of the land. He fervently rejoiced that there was another House. (Cheers.) Yes, he again said he was glad that the bill of the noble Lord was to be considered in another House. Hon. Members opposite might cheer, but he maintained that he had always supported the privileges of the Upper House. He thought that the other House of Parliament was necessary to correct harsh or false legislation. He perfectly concurred in all that the noble Lord said on the importance of education. He had always been an advocate for the education of the people. He must say of the children employed in his own mines, that great attention was paid to their moral and religious habits. He required all the children whom he employed, not only to attend a place of worship regularly, but also the Sunday-school. The hon. Member concluded by stating that it was not his intention to persist in his opposition to the bill.
Mr. Benettthought that the bill before

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the House did honour to the noble Lord with whom it had originated. He differed from what had fallen from the hon. Member who had last addressed the House. He considered that the House was justified in interfering in all cases where the poor were oppressed. He was not influenced by interested motives. He had nothing to do with collieries and mines. As the House had interfered on previous occasions in questions of this kind—he referred to the bills relating to the factory children and the sweeps—he thought that it was the duty of Parliament to throw its protection round those to whom the measure of the noble Lord specially referred. The bill did honour to the noble Lord—honour to the Legislature, if it passed such a measure. It was disgraceful to think that children employed under ground in the mines should be exposed to such treatment.
On the question that the bill do pass,
Mr. C. P. Villiersvindicated the conduct of those Members of the House who, upon a former evening, had insisted upon an adjournment of the debate. He repudiated the foul and false calumnies which had been heaped upon them in consequence of the course they had pursued. Their object had not been to defeat the bill, or to defend the abuses which it was the object of the bill to correct; but simply to give an opportunity for a further and fuller discussion of a measure which, with the intention of effecting much good, was still calculated in some respects to work no inconsiderable degree of mischief. The objects and intentions of those who had opposed themselves to the rapid progress of the bill had been grossly misrepresented. They had never defended the employment of women and children in the manner described in the reports. Every one who had spoken had expressed an earnest wish to correct such evils as were really found to exist. But there was reason to believe that the reports of the commissioners were, in many respects, somewhat partial and inaccurate. This was a reason for delay and for further discussion, in order that the truth might be accurately ascertained before any legislation was adopted upon the subject. He entirely agreed with the object of the noble Lord in preventing the employment of very young boys in mines and collieries; but, at the same time, he was at a loss to know how those boys, who hitherto had been employed six days a week, were
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hereafter to obtain the means of living when their employment was limited to three days a week. He admitted that no time should be lost in legislating to prevent the continuance of those abuses which the coal-owners of the north had permitted, to their disgrace, to exist in their collieries; but he could not help feeling that this measure had not yet been discussed with a view to the real interests of those persons who would be immediately affected by it. He thought that it required further consideration, and that the House, before it proceeded to legislate upon the matter, should possess itself of further and more accurate information. Under these circumstances he was glad that the measure had yet to undergo a discussion in another place, where he hoped the good parts of it would be retained, and the injudicious and bad expunged.
Mr. Attwoodsaid, that in offering observations on the details of the noble Lord's bill, he desired to say that he entirely concurred in its general principle and objects. He had supported every measure the noble Lord had brought forward for the protection of the labouring classes, as he supported all the measures having this object of the late lamented Mr. Sadler, the noble Lord's predecessor in a task which reflects on him so much honour. But, at the same time, he believed that if more deliberation had been used in maturing the details of the present measure, the bill would have been rendered equally effectual for protecting the oppressed portion of the classes comprehended in the bill, without inflicting injury, as he feared would now be the case, on other portions of those classes, and without unnecessary interference with the interests of their employers. In Staffordshire and in Shropshire many collieries employed from 200 to 300 each of boys, from ten to thirteen years of age. They were essential to the working of the mines; he believed they were not overworked or oppressed, and he feared that a bill, preventing such boys being employed for two consecutive days, would render their labour useless, throw many of the boys themselves out of employment, and inflict hardships on the class intended to be benefitted. Of the manner in which boys were employed in the collieries in that part of England which he had the honour to be connected with by representation, he would speak with perfect confidence. He would show

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the House a short statement of facts that would enable them to judge how little benefit, and what probable injury, might be effected by this provision. In the great collieries belonging to the Earl of Lonsdale, at Whitehaven, were employed under ground more than 600 able colliers. These men had mostly been trained from their youth in these pits. It was that training which gave their labour value. He held in his hand a statement showing that of fifty-five of those men, taken without selection as they came from the pits, fourteen only had been employed there for a less period than twenty-five years. Some had been employed thirty-five years, some forty-five, some fifty, some sixty-two. Now, when men have been employed such periods as these in one task, they must have been young when they entered on the labour. In these collieries were ninety-three boys, between ten and thirteen. They entered as trappers; their work was to open and shut the air-doors, a task similar to opening and shutting a wicket-gate. They were promoted to be drivers of horses. In these extensive mines were not less than 140 horses constantly employed under ground. The boys led the horses; as they ceased to be boys they were taken to other branches. They became colliers, engineers, or filled other tasks suited to full-grown labourers. He would say that it would render those boys utterly useless to prevent their occupation being carried on any two successive days; but every one must see that a measure which effected this, greatly endangered the interest of the boys themselves. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton had complained of the reports of the commissioners. There was reason for that complaint. The gentleman who had reported on the Whitehaven collieries had made a report, which he was not warranted in making. The commissioner was a Mr. Symons. He, not knowing who he was, would not speak of him but with respect, and the more so because he was not present. When he inspected those collieries, he stated to the gentlemen who accompanied him that the regulations were unexceptionable; that if all collieries were conducted similarly, there would be no occasion for legislative interference; but having said this at Whitehaven, he had stated in his report that he found instances of hardship, and that he believed he should have found more, but that evidence was not given freely, on account of the presence of what
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he described as great men. Now, this was an insinuation, if not an assertion, that information was kept back by the influence he referred to; and he took on him to say, that whether this were insinuated or affirmed, it was in either case utterly unfounded. The very respectable gentleman, Mr. Peile, known to many Members of that House, who was the manager of the extensive collieries of Lord Lonsdale, was in all probability the gentleman referred to amongst the great men in this insinuation. Mr. Peile was as incapable of this conduct as he was without a motive for it; and he was assured that neither Mr. Peile nor any other of the managers of these collieries, could have any desire but to give the most explicit information. He should say no more but to express his regret that before the bill had gone through the committee in that House, the parties whose interests were affected had not, by earlier information, been enabled to propose amendments, which he believed would have improved the bill.
Mr. Stansfieldquite agreed with the last speaker in thinking that the bill had not been maturely considered, and expressed his fear that too many had formed their opinions on the subject merely on the exaggerated reports which had gone forth to the public. He must say that he had strong objections to the cuts which the commissioners thought it right to publish with their report. It was an indecent mode of attracting attention, and one which was likely to lead to great exaggeration. What would have ' been said if some of the poorhouse hardships had been thus illustrated—if the cases narrated the other night as having occurred in the Keighley Union had thus been pictured forth to attract public attention? He was of opinion, too, that the measure, great as was its design, would be very limited in its operation. The clause, for instance, regarding the apprenticeship of boys would only affect some fifteen or sixteen in the extensive coal district of South Staffordshire. If they were to go on in this way, every class would soon have its enactment. Milliners and pinmakers would be protected, as it was called, and little children employed in hemming and stitching, or in putting heads on pins, would only be allowed to work alternate days. Really they should consider what these children were to do on the days they made them idle by act of Parliament. They did not provide education for them, and yet they

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refused to let them earn an honest livelihood. He said it was very dangerous to interfere in such a manner, and he earnestly hoped they would be careful of the grounds they acted on. To show the exaggerated nature of the statements in the report, he would take the liberty to state one instance which had come under the observation of a friend of his. In the report of one of the commissioners, Mr. Kennedy, it was stated that a boy in the Lancashire district had stated that he had seen his master strike another boy, a pauper, apprenticed by the St. Helen's workhouse, on the shins and legs with a pickaxe, and that he had also seen him throw a hundred weight at him, which "swelled up his eye and made it blue." This case was quoted by the noble Lord opposite as an instance of great oppression. Now, thinking it rather strange that the hundred weight so thrown should only have had the effect of "swelling up this boy's eye and making it blue," his friend had referred to the evidence accompanying the reports, and had there found that the boy had been struck, not with a pickaxe, but with a pickarm, or handle, and that, instead of a cwt., a cut had been thrown at him, the said cut being a notched stick of no great thickness, which served as an index for the miners. He noticed this as a specimen of the exaggerations which had, through inadvertence or neglect, been made even by the commissioners themselves, and he did really hope that they would be careful how they acted on testimony too often so perverted: He could only add that he considered more time should have been given to digest the bill, and to bring it into operation. In the chimneysweepers' case, as well as in the case of the factory children, they allowed several years to elapse before they brought the bill into operation, but in this case all this machinery was to be put in motion in some five or six months from the present time. Would it not be better to give further time to consider these clauses, and to confine the present operation of the law to its first province—that, namely, prohibiting female labour?
Mr. Brothertoncould really see nothing in this bill that was at all unreasonable. Was it unreasonable to prevent children and boys from being employed from fourteen to sixteen hours a-day? In answer to those who would ask how these persons were to be employed, he would say that it would be better to divide the labour,
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though that he admitted would be in itself an evil, than to continue a practice which was opposed to every principle of humanity. He had on a former occasion presented a petition from 1,062 colliers of Oldham, in which it was stated that the labour to which the women were subjected in the mines was not the worst of the evils, but that the indiscriminate mixture of the sexes and the conversation they were compelled to hear were still worse. It was always necessary, where strong self-interest operated to the continuation of abuse, that such abuse should be checked by legislative interference. He had therefore no hesitation in giving his support to the bill, and he thought the noble Lord by whom it was introduced deserved the thanks of his country.
Mr. Hawkesconsidered that the owners of the coal-mines in Staffordshire had a right to complain that time had not been afforded to them with respect to this measure. It would be very difficult without due consideration to prepare a bill which would operate satisfactorily in the various counties.
Lord Ashleyread an extract of a letter, being only one of many such that he had received, in which the writer stated his full persuasion that the mine-owners had nothing to fear from the bill, whilst it held out every prospect of greatly improving both the moral and physical condition of the rising generation employed in the coal mines. It stated that this was an opinion in which all practical men, and most of the workmen, concurred, and concluded by expressing a hope that the bill would pass and become the law of the land.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that in the course of the debate doubts had been expressed as to the fate of the bill in another place. He, however, sincerely hoped that it would be passed into law without any alteration of its essential principle, and there was no doubt that it would become so if it had the sincere support of Government elsewhere. A Minister of the Crown had promised the noble Lord by whom the bill had been introduced that it should have the support of the Government—not the mere ordinary support, but cordial, warm, and friendly assistance. He could scarcely think that that expression merely applied to the progress of the bill in that House. It would be nothing more than mockery if the promised support were not to be given elsewhere, and the conduct which Government intended to pursue with

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respect to the measure was watched with great anxiety by those whose good opinion Ministers would be very sorry to lose.
Bill passed.
House adjourned.