Commons Sitting of 8 September 1841

MINUTES.
Members of the General Committee of Elections for the present Session, appointed by the Speaker.
New Writs. For Tamworth, in the room of the right hon. Sir Robert Peel, Bart, First Lord of the Treasury.
For Cambridge University, in the room of the right hon. Henry Goulburn, Chancellor of the Exchequer.
For the Northern Division of Lancashire, in the room of Lord Stanley, Secretary of State.
For Dorchester, in the room of Sir James Graham, Secretary of State.
For the Eastern Division of Kent, in the room of Sir Edward Knatchbull, Paymaster-General.
For Launeeston, in the room of Sir Henry Hardinge, Secretary at War.
For the Southern Division of Nottinghamshire, in the room of Lord Lincoln, Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests.
For the County of Monmouth, in the room of Lord Granville Somerset, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
For the County of Westmoreland, in the room of Lord Lowther, called to the House of Peers by the title of Baron Lowther, of Whitehaven.
For Cardiff, in the room of John Htid Nicholl, Esq., Judge Advocate General.
For East Cornwall, in the room of Lord Eliot, Principa Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.
For Bury St. Edmund's, in the room of Earl Jermyn, Treasurer of her Majesty's Household.
For Marlborough, in the room of Lord Ernest Bruce, Vice-Chamberlain of her Majesty's Household.
For Newark, in the room of Mr. Gladstone, Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and Master of the Mint.
For Huntingdon, in the room of Sir Frederick Pollock, Attorney-General.
For the City of Exeter, in the room of Sir William Follett, Solicitor-General.
For the Shire of Bute, in the room of Sir William Rae, Lord-Advocate of Scotland.
For Wenlock, in the room of Mr. James Mlines Gaskell, a Lord of the Treasury.
For Marlborough, in the room of Mr. H. Bingham Baring, a Lord of the Treasury.
For the County of Sligo, in the room of Colonel Alexander Perceval, a Lord of the Treasury.*
For the Shire of Selkirk, in the room of Mr. Alexander Pringle, a Lord of the Treasury.
* The hon. Member's first Appointment was not completed, and he was made Serjeant-at-Arms.
For the Shire of Aberdeen, in the room of the hon. William Gordon, a Lord of the Admiralty.
For the County of Tyrone, in the room of the right hon. Henry Thomas Lowry Corry, a Lord of the Admiralty.
For the Borough of Huntingdon, in the room of Colonel Jonathan Peel, Surveyor-General of the Ordnance.
For the Borough of Chippenham, in the room of Captain Henry George Boldero, Clerk of the Ordnance.
For the Borough of Lisburn, in the room of Captain Henry Meynell, one of her Majesty's Grooms in Waiting.
For the Borough of Bridport, in the room of Mr. H. Warburton, Steward of her Majesty's Chiltern Hundreds.
For the North Riding of Yorkshire, in the room of the hon. W. Duncombe, now Lord Feversham.
For Bradford, in the room of Mr. E. C. Lister, deceased.
For Sunderland, in the room of Mr. W. Thompson, Steward of her Majesty's Chiltern Hundreds.
For the City of Lichfield, in the room of Sir G. Anson, Steward of the Manor of Poyning.

CORK COUNTY AND MEATH ELECTIONS.
Mr. Speakerinformed the House, that he had received the following letter from Daniel O'Connell, esq., returned for the counties of Cork and Meath, making his election for the county of Cork:—
" Merrion Square, Dublin, 4th Sept. 1841.
"SIR—Having been returned to serve in the present Parliament for the county of Meath as well as the county of Cork, I beg leave to state to you, for the information of the House of Commons, that it is my intention to elect, and I do elect, to sit for the county of Cork.
" Should any other act be necessary, on my part, to carry this intention into effect, so that a new writ may issue at the earliest possible period for the county of Meath, I am ready to do that act so soon as I am apprised of the nature of it.
" I have the honour respectfully to request, that you will be pleased to communicate my election to serve for the county of Cork in the present Parliament, so soon as the rules of the House will permit that communication to be made, in order to allow a new writ to issue for the County of Meath.
" I have the honour to be, Sir,
" Your obedient, humble Servant,
" DANIEL O'CONNELL.
" To the Speaker, &c., &c. &c."
Whereupon, Mr. Speaker stated, that since the date of Mr. O'Connell's letter, a petition complaining of his election and return for the county of Cork, had been presented to the House, and that the hon. Member was consequently prevented from making his election.
Order [24th August] read, as followeth:—
" Ordered—That all Members who are returned for two or more places in any part of the United Kingdom, do make their election for which of the places they will serve, within one week from and after the expiration of the
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fourteen days before limited for presenting petitions, provided there be no question upon the return for that place; and if anything shall come in question touching the return or election of any Member, he is to withdraw during the time the matter is in debate: and that all Members returned upon double returns do withdraw, till their returns are determined."
Subject at an end.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—THE TIMES.
Mr. Roebuckrose to call the attention of the House to an article which had appeared in The Times newspaper of that day, which he held in his hand, reflecting on his character, and which he deemed to be a Breach of the Privileges of that House. He cared not for it personally. He agreed in the opinion expressed by Dr. Johnson, that no man could be written down but by himself, but he considered the statement which he held in his hand so gross a breach of privilege, that though he did not mean to call upon the House to exercise its power, yet it was as necessary to the interests of morality as to the advancement of the business of public life, that it should not be passed over unnoticed, and he desired to be understood as being individually responsible in bringing it before the House. He had that confidence in his own character, that he doubted not it would stand the test of any investigation, and it behoved him to face any such attempt upon his character as that which had been made in the newspaper which he held in his hand. He had thought it his duty on last Monday, as the representative of a very large constituency who had returned him almost unsolicited on his part, and, what perhaps might be thought more remarkable in that House, unbought—representing such a constituency, he had thought it right to give a notice respecting the Poor-law, the result of which had been a paragraph in The Times newspaper, an article to which he solicited the attention of the Members of that House, as an attempt to frighten, ay, to bully a Member out of the execution of his duty upon that question. He had thought it right to give notice of a motion to the effect, that the powers exercised by the Poor-law Commissioners should be transferred to the Secretary of State, and for having done so, he was visited with virulent abuse—described as a person only honourable by being a Member of that House. He had been long before the world in public life, and he would defy

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any man to point to a single act of his life that could have deprived him of that appellation. Honourable! Sir—why not honourable? It stated, that he was sprung from the humbler orders of society. Suppose it were so, was that to be any interruption to his efficiently discharging his public duty? He had appeared before a large constituency of his countrymen, and he now represented that constituency in Parliament. Suppose he were not descended, as he was, from ancestors distinguished for science and literature, would that afford a reason for his being made the mark for insinuations—that he was unfit to make such a proposition? It said, wholly unfit. Of that he would ask the 60,000 inhabitants of Bath, rather than the anonymous scribbler of The Times. He would remind the House, that, according to its rules, he might, at the end of his speech move to bring the responsible party on his knees to the Bar of that House. He claimed it as a right due to himself and to the constituencies of the empire, that he should answer such flagrant abuse of the liberty of the press as it ought to be answered. There was upon a newspaper establishment a person as necessary to it as its editor, who was called its responsible proprietor, and who was registered, and whose name was Lawson. He took it, however, that the chances were, that as the cards stood, that person was not then in the enjoyment of his personal liberty. Ay, that he was in prison; for so libellous was The Times, that the presumption was, that he who represented it must be in prison. That man bore the responsibility of The Times, first as to any fines to which it might be subject; next, as to any imprisonment to which the proprietor of the paper might be sentenced; and, thirdly, as to the cudgelling which it might deserve. But why? He bore all the responsibility; the writers of The Times were totally irresponsible, as much so as if they lived in South Australia, and penned their articles there. Did any hon. Member think that the writer of the article of which he complained would send him his name to-night on his return home? No; he chose to pen the article in which it was stated that he (Mr. Roebuck) was wholly unworthy of the name of an honourable man, and he dared not give his name. Let the House consider the morality of that. He was not speaking for himself,
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he was speaking for society at large, and as a Member of that House. He said it was a breach of the privileges of that House that any Member, no matter how humble his position might be, should be so traduced, and that an attempt should be made to bully him—for he knew no word he could more fitly use on that occasion—in order to prevent his execution of his duty, and that for such purpose such an article as he held in his hand should be put into the press. He asked the House whether that was a right mode of proceeding? [Interruption.] He complained of the interruption, and the more that he at all times experienced a difficulty in making himself understood from the delicate state of his health. Looking at the privileges of that House, he would ask them if they did not pay dearly for the advantages derived from the liberty of the press, by allowing such anonymous slanders to be scattered abroad, against all parties who, no matter for what motives, might deem it their duty to take part in public life. He would ask any hon. Gentleman who had read that article, and who had known him since he had first entered into public life, if there was anything in his conduct, public or private, that could justify any man in thus attempting to depreciate him in the estimation of the world by such an attack? Was it for the benefit of the world at large that such proceedings should be permitted? He would ask the House to consider that point. One of two things must be the consequence—either the public, for the sake of their own security, would demand that every man should put his name to the articles which he published, or a bill must be brought in, requiring that every article published in a newspaper should have a name affixed to it of some person who would bear the responsibility. He wished to know whether or not it was to be suffered that Members of that House should be attempted to be frightened from executing their duty? He should continue his course of duty unrestrained by such attacks of the press, and such a press; but he chose to take these means of expressing his opinion, and of calling for the opinion of the constituencies of hon. Members, to whom he put it, to mark their approbation or their disapprobation of the course of proceeding which such a newspaper had chosen to adopt. Before he finished, be would suggest, if there were any more sen-

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sitive than himself,—for he was not to be deterred by these attacks, but to those who might be more sensitive than himself, he would suggest an infallible remedy for these evils. Violent diseases required violent remedies. The parties making the attack were irresponsible, and beyond reach. They could not be got at either by law or by opinion. He wanted to know whether they could not be got at otherwise, and if any hon. Members were attacked by The Times, and did not wish for a repetition of the attack, he would suggest to them at once to horsewhip the proprietor, Mr. Waller, and they might depend upon it that the attack would not be repeated. [Cries of" Order."]
Sir R. Inglis: Does the hon. Member intend to conclude with any motion?
Mr. Roebuck: I shall not make any motion.
Sir R. Inglissaid, that the hon. Member had, then, occupied the time of the House very needlessly and unnecessarily. The hon. Member had given the House a dissertation respecting his ancestors, who, he said were distinguished in art, science, and literature; but he had not condescended to state who they were.
Mr. Roebuckwould ask the Speaker whether the course he had adopted was not a usual one?
The Speakersaid, it was irregular for any hon. Member to complain of a newspaper article unless he intended to follow it up with a motion. The more regular course was, for the hon. Member to move that it be read by the Clerk, and that it was a breach of privilege, and then to move that the printer be called to the Bar. The motion might be persevered in or not, as the hon. Member thought fit.
Mr. Roebucksaid, that when he rose he Stated, that he was aware he had the power of moving, that the printer be brought to the Bar of the House. He thought to save the time of the House by the course which he had pursued. If the hon. Member for Oxford insisted upon it, he would make the motion.
Sir R. Inglis: I insist upon nothing.
Mr. Roebuck: It is easy to get out of the matter so; but the hon. Baronet has insinuated a sarcasm, which he would have been reluctant to utter.
The Speaker: The course at present pursued is decidedly irregular.
Mr. Roebucksaid, he would then move that the printer of The Times newspaper
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be called to the Bar. The hon. Member gave in The Times newspaper of this day.
The Clerk was proceeding to read the article, when
Mr. Roebuckinterrupted him by saying, that he was not reading the paragraph complained of, and told him to begin at another place which he described.
The Clerk again proceeded to read from the article, but was in a few seconds again interrupted by
Mr. Roebuck,said — Surely you are not reading the right passage. Begin —" Amidst the pauses which sometimes occur in the melodious voices of Messrs. Hawes and Ward." [The hon. Member advanced to the Table and read it himself.] It was in these words:—
" Amidst the pauses which sometimes occur in the melodious voices of Messrs. Hawes and Ward, and Dr. Bowring, the House is threatened with an interlude by their gallery Friend Mr. Roebuck, on the subject of the Poor-law Commission. Nothing could be further from our habitual civility, or more at variance with our known respect for the humbler orders of our countrymen than to represent Mr. Roebuck as a nuisance. Having been made an hon. Gentleman by dint of getting into Parliament, that elevated person has an undoubted right to exercise the privileges of his sphere—we admit it. That those privileges entitle him to fling orange peel at the principal performers, or to have a sally at the dress boxes now and then, might not, if his class license were moderately used, be reasonably complained of. Chartists, such as he, are chartered men; and their occasional impertinences are both expected and endured. But Mr. Roebuck and his associates must not be permitted entirely to forget their station. That he should be allowed to injure everything at his mere pleasure is wholly out of the question. If he does not know his just limits and latitude, the lesson must be seasonably taught him. The evil of seeing important interests made utter havoc of by a precipitate and pert interference is not to be endured. In point of personal and political influence he is just as fit to take ft lead in modifying the New Poor-law as the one-shilling gentry of Drury-lane."
The hon. and learned Gentleman having finished reading the extract, said— "Sir, I move that the printer of that be brought to the bar."
The Speaker: Who seconds the motion?
No hon. Member having risen to second the motion, after a pause,
Sir G. Clerksaid, that before that motion was put, he believed there was a pre-

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liminary motion, that the words complained of were a breach of privilege.
Mr. Roebucksaid, that perhaps he might be allowed to state, that he had always understood, when any hon. Member found anything in the public prints offensive to his personal feelings, he was allowed an opportunity of bringing the matter before the House, of explaining, and stating the injury which had been done to his feelings. He had seen this done so many times, that he really thought, from the kind feelings—lie said the kind feelings, and he wished to say no more of any man than he deserved— of the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir R. Inglis), he would have been the last man to interfere to prevent him (Mr. Roebuck) from availing himself of a practice which was common among hon. Members.
Sir R. Inglisbelieved there was no question before the House.
Mr. Roebucksaid, that if it was the pleasure of the House that he should so move, he would move, "That the words just read constitute a breach of the privileges of this House."
The Speaker: who seconds the motion?
No one answering, the matter dropped.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir G. Clerkmoved, that the House, at its rising, do adjourn until Thursday, the 16th instant.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that it probably would be convenient to the House to know whether her Majesty's Government intended, after the recess, to proceed immediately to such business as they meant to propose to the House without further adjournment?
Sir G. Clerksaid, that the first Lord of the Treasury would, he hoped, be in his place on Thursday, the 16th, when he would be able to answer the noble Viscount.
Motion agreed to.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE.
Sir T. Fremantlemoved the first reading of the Administration of Justice Bill.
Lord Palmerston,in seconding the motion, said he might be allowed to avail himself of that opportunity, as the bill had been introduced in the other House by his noble and learned Friend, Lord Cottenham, to say that, in his belief, there was but one opinion in the profession of the law as to the great merits of Lord
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Cottenham in his judicial capacity, and that testimony, arising, as it did, from an oblivion of party distinctions, was alike honourable to the bar and to the noble and learned Lord who was the object of it. He believed, that he was only saying what would be supported by the judgment of every one who was conversant with such matters, that Lord Cottenham, by the indefatigable attention which he applied to business, by the impartiality and soundness of his decisions, and by the large scope of mind which he brought to the discharge of the functions which he had to administer, would hold rank among the most eminent of those who had ever held the office of Lord Chancellor.
Mr. Wakleywished to ask, whether anything could be more offensive to common sense, than that a judge, who had committed no fault, should be dismissed, in consequence of a political change? That such a thing should be, was such a violation of common sense and justice, that he trusted some leading Members of the House would put an end to it, by the insertion of clauses in this bill.
Mr. C. Bulleragreed, that while both sides of the House were eulogizing the conduct of the late Lord Chancellor, they ought not to forget to apply a remedy to a state of things which deprived the suitors of the country of the services of a judge in the prime of his faculties, merely in consequence of a political change. But the separation of the judicial and political functions of the head of the Chancery Courts could not be effected in this bill, as it would require various enactments in great detail. Lord Cottenham, among his other merits, had formerly introduced a measure for this very purpose into the other House. But such a bill ought to emanate from the Government, and he hoped they would soon take steps towards this change, which he thought would confer a greater benefit on the country than any which had yet been made in the administration of justice.
Bill read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on the 17th.
House adjourned to the 16th.