Commons Sitting of 5 May 1841

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Exchequer Bills.—Read a second time:—Salmon Fisheries (Scotland, No. 1); Enrolment of Burgesses; Salmon Fisheries (Scotland, No. 2).
Petitions presented. By Mr. Easthope, Mr. Villiers, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. G. W. Wood, and Mr. Hawes, from Leicester, Manchester, Westmorland, Yorkshire, Kendal, Lambeth, and an immense number of other places, for a Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. Alston, Mr. Busfeild. Mr. Strutt, and other hon. Members, from Hertfordshire, Bradford, Derby, and other places, against Church Rates, and Ecclesiastical Courts.—By Sir R. Inglis, Mr. Handley, Lord Charles Manners, and several other hon. Members, from Cambridge, Wilts, York, Lincoln, Leicester, and a great many other places, for Church Extension.—By Mr. Strutt, from Derby, in favour of the Drainage Bill.—By Sir J. Y. Buller, from Rate-payers of St. Thomas's, in Devonshire, against the Poor-law.—By Mr. T, Dun.
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combe, from St. George's, Southwark, for inquiry into the Violation of the Anatomy Act; and from Glasgow, for the Extension of the Franchise.—By Mr. Sergeant Jackson, from a place in Fermanagh, against Maynooth.—By Mr. R. Clive, from a place in Salop, for the better Remuneration of Coroners.—By Mr. Greig, Colonel Conolly, and Mr. Wallace, from Perthshire, Ibber-muir, Ballyshannon, and Renfrewshire, for the Abolition of Church Patronage (Scotland).—By Dr. Lushington, from Antigua, against the Introduction into England of Sugar raised by Slave Labour.

SUGAR DUTIES—PROTECTIVE SYSTEM.
Sir G. Clerkstated, that he had been requested by the noble Lord the Member for Liverpool, in his absence, which was unavoidable, to state the terms of the resolution that it was his intention to move, upon the motion for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means on Friday, to consider the Sugar Duties, they were as follows:—
"Resolved, that considering the efforts and sacrifices which Parliament and the country have made for the abolition of the slave trade and of slavery, with the earnest hope that, by our exertions and example, we might be able to lead to a mitigation and final extinct ion of those evils in other countries, this House is not prepared, especially considering the present prospect of a supply of sugar from British Possessions, to adopt the measure proposed by her Majesty's Government, for the reduction of the duty on foreign sugar."
Lord John Russellwished to state that, in the event of the House not going into Committee on the sugar duties, and the resolution, of which they had just heard the notice given, being put from the Chair, he should move an amendment to it in nearly the following terms, but which to-morrow he would give more correctly:—
"That it is the opinion of this House that it is practicable to supply the present inadequacy of the revenue, and to meet the expenses of the country, by a judicious alteration of the protective and differential duties, without materially increasing the public burdens, and at the same time to promote the interests of trade, and to afford relief to the industrious classes; and that this House will consider such a course as best calculated for the maintenance of the public faith and the general welfare of the country."

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS.
Viscount Dungannonwished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies whether any of the surplus funds which had fallen into the hands of the Church commissioners had been applied to the augmentation of poor benefices.
Lord J. Russellsaid, the subject had undergone a great deal of consideration on the part of the ecclesiastical commissioners, but they had not yet adopted any general principle for the application of the funds, and therefore none had been applied.
Viscount Dungannonthen observed, that, as far as the matter had gone, he was to understand that no portion of the funds for the augmentation of poor benefices, had been applied iii the different dioceses in which the benefices became vacant.
Lord John Russellreplied, that sums had not yet been so applied. It was considered by the ecclesiastical commissioners desirable not to do so until some general plan was laid down.

VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
Viscount Mahonhad observed, that in the sales of land ordered by the commissioner in this country in our Australian colonies, there was none ordered for sale in Van Diemen's land. He wished to know whether it was intended, or was it any mistake?
Mr. V. Smithsaid, when the lands were advertised, there was not considered to be enough in Van Diemen's Land ready for sale to make it worth employing an agent in this country. It was more than probable that some would appear for sale in the next advertisement.

POOR-LAW AMENDMENT.
Captain Polhillobserved that as a great deal of excitement prevailed out of doors, on the question of the new Poor-law, he wished her Majesty's Government to state on what day the bill would be again brought on.
Viscount Morpethreplied, that it was on the orders of the day for Monday; but he could not say whether it would then come on.
Captain Polhillwas not satisfied with the answer. He said for himself he was not satisfied with it, and he was sure the House would not be satisfied with it.

COUNTY CORONERS.
The House in Committee for the re-consideration of the County Coroners bill,
Clause 1 agreed to.
On Clause 2,
Mr. Wakleysaid, that the clause provided that justices of the peace should meet in Session for the purpose of dividing
1456
the counties into districts. He thought it would be but an act of courtesy if the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pakington) proposed in his bill that, before counties could be divided into districts, coroners should receive intimation of what the justices intended to do. He was aware that in arguing the case of the coroners against the justices in that House, there were fearful odds against him. It was extraordinary that justices of the peace, without giving notice to the coroners of what was to be done, should consider that they had the power to decide what was more convenient for the public than the coroners themselves who had been acting in those districts for many years. Several coroners loudly complained on this subject, and considered they were most unfairly treated. If the hon. Gentleman would intimate that the coroners should be adequately protected, he would not trouble the House with the proviso which it was his intention to move to the second clause. But if the hon. Gentleman should not give such an intimation, he should be obliged to put the House to the inconvenience of moving such a proviso. The hon. Gentleman read a note from a coroner in Gloucestershire, to show the injurious effects of the clause upon the interests of the coroners. The note complained of the injustice of putting coroners, who had been at great expense in getting elected for large districts on account of the large emolument arising there from, on a level with coroners of small districts who had been at little or no expense or trouble in obtaining those districts. The hon. Gentleman proceeded to say, that some compensation ought to be made to such coroners. He was desirous that the House should not interfere with the present management of counties when the counties had been divided into districts for a long series of years, and if the hon. Gentleman should state that that were his opinion he, (Mr. Wakley) would not trouble the House with the proviso he had mentioned.
Mr. Pakingtonassured the hon. Member he had no desire to act discourteously or harshly towards the coroners, and, seeing nothing objectionable in the hon. Member's proviso, he would not oppose it.
Proviso added to the clause, and clause as amended agreed to.
On clause 3 being read,
Mr. Barnebysaid, that the clause proposed to make it incumbent on every co-

1457
roner to reside within the district for which he acted; but if a coroner resided in a town which had a right of holding quarter-sessions, he could not be, strictly speaking, residing within his district. Now, he thought that such a provision would press hardly upon some coroners, and therefore he wished to see some words introduced, giving to the justices the power of giving leave to the coroner to reside out of his district in some cases, as it may seem fit.
Mr. Pakingtonwould accede to the introduction of some such provision.
Mr. Wakleyobjected to giving the justices such power. They were constantly boasting of the necessity of having the judges independent, and here they were proposing to make the coroner, who was a judge, dependent upon the magistrates. It would be impossible for him to do justice if he were placed in such a situation. Nothing could be more unfair than the manner in which coroners were elected; and he rejoiced that the hon. Member had brought the subject before the House. What he complained of was, that the bill left the justices to deal with the present coroners as they thought fit. He should, therefore, move, that the following proviso be added to it:—
"Provided also, that nothing in this act contained shall extend, or be construed to extend, to any existing coroner of any county of which the duties have been discharged during.—number of years, unless the consent of the coroner has first been obtained in writing."
He left a blank for the number of years, as he had no objection to 10, 15, 20, or even 30 years, if the House thought proper.
Mr. Pakingtondid not think the hon. Member for Finsbury had any reason to complain of the powers given by this clause to the justices.
Mr. O'Connellcontended, that as many of the coroners had vested interests, it should not be left to the caprice of magistrates, by contracting the range of their duties, to curtail their emoluments, without granting some compensation.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that certainly it was a fair principle to give compensation where existing interests were affected. He did not think that the question of compensation ought to stand in the way of the public good; on the contrary, where the public convenience required that vested interests should be interfered with, it was only just to grant compensation. The
1458
principle had been admitted last year, in the case of the coroners of the County Palatine of Chester, and although that was in a private bill, still the principle was a public one. It should be recollected that this clause gave to the justices an unlimited power to interfere with the ancient office of coroner, and that without appeal. He feared that this was likely to detract from the dignity of the office of coroner, but if the public good required it he should not object to it. He thought, however, that compensation ought to be awarded.
Mr. Wakleyassured the committee that the coroners had no intention whatever to urge claims for compensation. The object of his proviso was to secure the independence and integrity of their courts from the interference of the justices. He therefore hoped the hon. Gentleman would not give the committee the trouble of dividing against it.
Mr. Pakingtonexpressed his readiness to introduce a clause at another stage of the bill to give compensation to parties affected by the operation of the measure.
Sir R. Peelthought a public officer had a perfect right to ask for compensation for losses suffered by an alteration in the state of the law, but he bad no right to ask for a power to decide whether or not a great public improvement should take place.
Mr. O'Connellsuggested, that as the committee were agreed upon the principle of the amendment, it would be better to leave it to the hon. Gentleman to introduce a compensation clause than to divide upon the question now.
Sir R. Peelrecommended that the clause should be so framed as to give power to the Privy Council, upon the representation of the magistrates, to decide upon the division of a county into districts, and that the Privy Council should have the power of awarding compensation.
Mr. Wakleyhoped that it would not be understood that he had said one word against the division of counties into districts under coroners; no one would give more support to such a measure. But what he complained of was that the magistrates should have power, without reference to the coroner, to make the alteration. Satisfied that if the course recommended by the hon. Baronet were followed, justice would be done, he would withdraw his amendment.
Amendment withdrawn.
On the 6th clause having been proposed as follows:—
"When any county shall have been divided into districts, every election of a coroner for any such district shall be held at some place within the district in which he shall be elected to serve the office of coroner, and every person so to be elected shall be chosen by a majority of such persons residing within such district, as shall at the time of the election be duly qualified to vote at the election of knights of the shire for the county, &c."
Colonel T. Wood Colonel T. Wood moved to leave out, in line 6, the words "residing within such district," which, he said, would have the effect of disfranchising all the non-resident county electors.
Mr. Humeopposed the amendment.
The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out Stand;—Ayes 61; Noes 40; Majority 31.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lister, E. C.

Armstrong, A.

Maclean, D.

Barnard, E. G.

Marsland, H.

Barneby, J.

Maule, hon. F.

Berkeley, hon. G.

Morgan, C. M.

Blackett, C.

Morris, D.

Blake, M. J.

Muskett, G. A.

Bowes, J.

O'Connell, Dan.

Bramston, T. W.

O'Connell, J.

Brotherton, J.

Old, W.

Busfield, W.

Pryme, G.

Butler, hon. Colonel

Pryse, P.

Chalmers, P.

Rundle, J.

Clive, E. B.

Salwey, Colonel

Clive, hon. R. H.

Stanley, E.

Fielden, J.

Stansfield, W.R.C.

Greenaway, C.

Stewart, J.

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Stewart, J.

Handley, H.

Strickland, Sir G.

Harcourt, G. G.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Heathcoat, J.

Thornely, T.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Turner, W.

Hodges, T. L.

Walter, J.

Hoskins, K.

Warburton, H.

Houldsworth, T.

White, A.

Howard, P. H.

Wilbraham, G.

Howard, hon. C.W.G.

Wood, G. W.

Hume, J.

Worsley, Lord

Hutt, W.

Yates, J. A.

Ingham, R.

TELLERS.

Jervis, J.

Pakington, J.

Langdale, hon. C.

Wakley, T.

List of the NOES.

Ainsworth, P.

Bolling, W.

Antrobus, E.

Broadley, H.

Archdall, M.

Bruges, W.H.L.

Bell, M.

Chapman, A.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Chute, W. L. W.

Bethell, R.

Darby, G.

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Dungannon, Viscount

Murray, A.

Egerton, W. T.

Packe, C. W.

Gaskell, J. M.

Plumptre, J. P.

Goddard, A.

Polhill, F.

Grimsditch, T.

Price, R.

Halford, H.

Redington, T. N.

Hinde, J. H.

Round, J.

Hodgson, F.

Ruahbrooke, Colonel

Hodgson, R.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Hope, G. W.

Somerville, Sir W.M.

Kemble, H.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Lowther, J. H.

Wodehouse, E.

Marsland, T.

Maunsell, T. P.

TELLERS.

Morgan, O.

Estcourt, T.

Muntz, G. F.

Wood, Colonel T.

Mr. Hume, moved to add to the clause after the word "election," the words "have been rated for six months to the relief of the poor in any parish in such district."
Mr. Pakingtonsaid, that this was an amendment to which it was quite impossible he could give his consent. The proposal, however, was not new, inasmuch as it had been made to him on bringing in the bill by the hon. Under-secretary for the Home Department. He (Mr. Pakington), thought, that so far from being an improvement, this addition to the clause would destroy the whole principle of the bill, the object of which was to simplify the mode of the election of coroner, to lessen the expenses of such election, and to put an end to the extensive frauds by personation and otherwise which were practised on those occasions. If the amendment were agreed to, it would amount to universal suffrage in those elections. He (Mr. Pakington) had no wish to narrow the franchise, and he had only adopted the county franchise for the sake of a criterion as to who should and who should not have a right to vote; and it was with that view that he had introduced as a constituency the constituencies of the boroughs in the particular districts. On the whole, the amendment was so objectionable that be must divide the committee against it.
Mr. F. Maulesupported the amendment, and denied that its adoption could lead to universal suffrage in the election of coroners. It would only give to the poorer classes a voice in the election of a public officer who of all others was most nearly connected with them.
Mr. J. Jervissaid, he was sorry to be obliged to oppose the amendment of the hon. Member for Kilkenny. He (Mr. Jervis) was clearly of opinion that the

1461
choice of coroner should remain, as formerly, in the freeholders of the county.
Mr. Warburtonshould vote for the amendment of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, because it was impossible to retain the present franchise without encouraging fraud and perjury.
Colonel C. Woodwas much surprised that hon. Members opposite should argue from the abuse of the franchise for its further extension. He congratulated the hon. Members on the accession of the Government in the person of the hon. Under-secretary of State to the principle of household franchise.
Mr. Wilbrahamopposed the amendment.
Mr. Hamiltonagreed with the hon. and learned Member for Cheater, and he should therefore oppose the amendment.
Mr. Brotherton. supported the amendment.
Mr. Wakleydoubted, that the bill would secure a good constituency, though he believed it was well intended as a remedy for abuse. The existing evil, however, was of such enormous magnitude that, even if the amendment of the hon. Member for Kilkenny were lost, some other founded on the clause before the House would be adopted. Under these circumstances he suggested a compromise to the effect of extending the right of voting to boroughs not now returning Members to Parliament.
The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed by Mr. Hume be inserted:—Ayes 48; Noes 63; Majority 15.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lambton, H.

Armstrong, A.

Langdale, hon. C.

Baines, E.

Lister, E. C.

Barnard, E. G.

Marsland, H.

Berkeley, hon. G.

Morris, D.

Blackett, C.

Morrison, J.

Bowes, J.

Muntz, G. F.

Brotherton, J.

O'Connell, Dan.

Busfield, W.

O'Connell, J.

Clive, E. B.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Fielden, J.

Ord, W.

Heathcoat, J.

Pigot, rt. hon. D.

Hinde, J. H.

Rundle, J.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Rutherfurd, rt. hon. A.

Hodges, T. L.

Salwey, Colonel

Hodgson, R.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Howard, P. H.

Stewart, J.

Howard, hon. C.W.G.

Strickland, Sir G.

Humphery, J.

Thornely, T.

Hutt, W.

Turner, W.

Ingham, R.

Vivian, Major C.

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Wakley, T.

Yates, J, A.

Warburton, H.

TELLERS.

White, A.

Hume, J.

Wilbraham, G.

Maule, hon. F.

Wilde, Sir T.

List of the NOES.

Ainsworth, P.

Hughes, W. B.

Antrobus, E.

Hurt, F.

Archdall, M.

Kemble, H.

Baldwin, C. B.

Lowther, J. H.

Barneby, J.

Lucas, E.

Bell, M.

Maclean, D.

Bethell, R.

Marsland, T.

Blair, J.

Master, T. W. C.

Bolling W.

Maunsell, T. P.

Bramston, T. W.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Broadley, H.

Morgan, C. M.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Morgan, O.

Chapman, A.

Packe, C. W.

Chute, W. L. W.

Plumptre, J. P.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Polhill, F.

Darby, G.

Price, R.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Pryme, G.

Drummond, H. H.

Round, C. G.

Dungannon, Viscount

Round, J.

East, J. B.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Egerton, W. T.

Shirley, E. J.

Estcourt, T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Follett, Sir W.

Sotheron, T. E.

Gaskell, J. M.

Stanley, E.

Godson, R.

Stewart, J.

Grimsditch, T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Halford, H.

Welby, G. E.

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Wodehouse, E.

Handley, H.

Wood, Colonel T.

Harcourt, G. G.

Worsley, Lord

Hodgson, F.

TELLERS.

Hope, G. W.

Pakington, J.

Houldsworth, T.

Jervis, J.

Mr. J. Jervis Mr. J. Jervis moved to substitute the word "registered," for the word "qualified," the effect of which was to secure to the existing electors the right of voting, the old qualification being retained.
The Committee divided on the question that the word "qualified" stand part of the clause:—Ayes 78; Noes 30; Majority 48.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Drummond, H. H.

Antrobus, E.

East, J. B.

Baines, E.

Estcourt, T.

Baldwin, C. B.

Evans, W.

Berkely, hon. G.

Fielden, J.

Bethall, R.

Gisborne, T.

Blackett, C.

Handley, H.

Broadley, H.

Harcourt, G. G.

Brotherton, J.

Heathcoat, J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Hinde, J. H.

Busfield, W.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Chute, W. L. W.

Hodges, T. L.

Clive, E. B.

Hodgson, F.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Hodgson, R.

1463

Hope, G. W.

Pigot, rt. hon. D.

Howard, P. H.

Plumptre, J. P.

Howard, hon. C.W.G.

Price, R.

Hughes, W. B.

Round, J.

Hume, J.

Rushhrooke, Colonel

Humphery, J.

Rutherfurd, rt. hon. A.

Hutt, W.

Salwey, Colonel

Kemble, H.

Shirley, E. J.

Langdale, hon. C.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Lister, E. C.

Sotheron, T. E.

Lowther, J. H.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Lygon, hon. General

Stewart, J.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Strickland, Sir G.

Marsland, H.

Thornely, T.

Marsland, T.

Turner, W.

Maule, hon. F.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Moreton, hon. A. H.

Wakley, T.

Morgan, C. M. R.

Warburton, H.

Morgan, O.

White, A.

Morris D.

Wilbraham, G.

Morrison, J.

Wilde, Sir T.

Muntz, G. F.

Wodehouse, E.

Neeld, J.

Yates, J. A.

O'Connell, J.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

TELLERS.

Ord, W.

Jervis, J.

Packe, C. W.

Hamilton, C.

List of the NOES.

Bailey, J.

Ingham, R.

Bailey, J. jun.

Lambton, H.

Bell, M.

Maclean, D.

Blair, J.

Master, T. W. C.

Boiling, W.

Maunsell, T. P.

Bowes, J.

Neeld, J.

Bramston, T. W.

Polhill, F.

Chapman, A.

Pryme, G.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Round, C. G.

Egerton, W. T.

Thompson, Alderman

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Tollemache, F. J.

Godson, R.

Wood, Colonel T.

Grimsditch, T.

Young, Sir W.

Halford, H.

Henniker, Lord

TELLERS.

Houldsworth, T.

Pakington, J.

Hurt, F.

Barneby, J.

Mr. J. Jervis Mr. J. Jervis moved, to add the word "coroners" after the word "elections."
Mr. Wakleyobjected to the amendment, the effect of which, he said, would be most disfranchising.
The Committee divided to add the word "coroners" after the word "elections:" Ayes 75; Noes 27; Majority 48.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Antrobus, E.

Busfield, W.

Baines, E.

Chute, W. L. W.

Baldwin, C. B.

Clive, E. B.

Berkeley, hon. G.

Codrington, C. W.

Bethell, R.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Boldero, H. G.

Drummond, H. H.

Broadley, H.

East, J. B.

Brotherton, J.

Estcourt, T.

1464

Evans, W.

Neeld, J.

Fielden, J.

O'Connell, Dan.

Gisborne, T.

Ord, W.

Harcourt, G. G.

Packe, C. W.

Hinde, J. H.

Parker, R. T.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Plumptre, J. P.

Hodges, T. L.

Polhill, F.

Hodgson, F.

Price, R.

Hodgson, R.

Round, J.

Hope, G. W.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Hoskins, K.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

Howard, P. H.

Salwey, Colonel

Howard, hon. C.W.G.

Shirley, E. J.

Hughes, W. B.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Hume, F.

Sotheron, T. E.

Humphery, J.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Hurt, F.

Stewart, J.

Hutt, W.

Strickland, Sir G.

Kemble, H.

Thorneley, T.

Langdale, hon. C.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Lister, E. C.

Vivian, Major C.

Lockhart, A. M.

Warburton, H.

Lowther, J. H.

Wilbraham, G.

Lygon, hon. General

Wilde, Sir T.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Wodehouse, E.

Marsland, H.

Wood, Colonel T.

Marsland, T.

Morgan, C. M.

TELLERS.

Morris, D.

Jervis, J.

Muntz, G. F.

Hamilton, C.

List of the NOES.

Bailey, J.

Henniker, Lord

Bailey, J. jun.

Houldsworth, T.

Barneby, J.

Lambton, H.

Bell, M.

Maclean, D.

Blair, J.

Master, T. W. C.

Bolling, W.

Maunsell, T. P.

Bowes, J.

Neeld, J.

Bramston, T. W.

Pryme, G.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Round, C. G.

Cresswell, C.

Thompson, Alderman

Eaton, R. J.

Tollemache, F. J.

Egerton, W. T.

Young, Sir W.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

TELLERS.

Godson, R.

Pakington, J.

Halford, H:

Wakley, T.

Amendment agreed to.
Mr. Warburtonproposed an amendment, with a view of adding to the class of voters at present embraced by the bill, those who would have been included as the clause stood when proposed by the hon. Member for Droitwitch.
Mr. J. Jervisopposed the amendment.
Mr. Aglionbysaid, that he should vote for the amendment, because he did not like to disfranchise the old freeholders. He thought that it was an extremely good proposition to qualify by the registration.
Amendment withdrawn.
Mr. J. Jervis Mr. J. Jervis moved, that all the words after the words "coroners of counties" be struck out, which having been done,
On the question, that the clause as amended stand part of the bill,
Mr. T. Egertonsaid, he should vote for the clause so amended.
Mr. Pakingtonsaid, that if this clause were struck out he should not think it worth while to go on with the bill.
Mr. Estcourtsaid, he should vote against the clause, as did Mr. Godson.
Mr. J. Jervissupported it.
Mr. F. Maulebelieved that residence in the district was absolutely necessary to curtail the expense of electing coroners. The office was interesting to those who inhabited the districts in which the coroner was to act, and therefore the inhabitants of the districts ought to vote. He trusted the Committee would maintain the vote to which they had already come.
Mr. Darbywas opposed to the clause.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 48; Majority 25.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Marsland, H.

Bailey, J.

Marsland, T.

Bailey, J. jun.

Master, T. W. C.

Baines, E.

Maule, hon. F.

Berkeley, hon. H.

Melgund, Lord Vise.

Berkeley, hon. G.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Blackett, C.

Morris, D.

Bowes, J.

Morison, J.

Bramston, T. W.

Muntz, G. F.

Brotherton, J.

Neeld, J.

Busfield, W.

O'Connell, Dan.

Clive, E. B.

Ord, W.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Patten, J. W.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Pechell, Captain

East, J. B.

Price, R.

Evans, G.

Pryme, G.

Evans, W.

Round, C. G.

Feilden, W.

Rundle, J.

Gisborne, T.

Salwey, Colonel

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Shirley, E. J.

Harcourt, G. G.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Hinde, J. H.

Stewart, J.

Hindley, C.

Strickland, Sir G.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Style, Sir C.

Hodges, T. L.

Thompson, Alderman

Hoskins, K.

Thornely, T.

Howard, P. H.

Vivian, Major C.

Hume, J.

Waddington, H. S.

Humphrey, J.

Wakley, T.

Hutt, W.

Wallace, R.

Ingham, R.

Warburton, H.

Jervis, J.

Wilbraham. G.

Lambton, H.

Wilde, Sir T.

Langdale, hon. C.

Wodehouse, E.

Lennox, Lord G.

Wood, B.

Lister, E. C.

TELLERS.

Lowther, J. H.

Pakington, J. S.

Lucas, E.

Barneby, J.

1466

List of the NOES.

Antrobus, E.

Hughes, W.B.

Baldwin, C. B.

Hurt, F.

Bell, M.

Kemble, H.

Bethell, R.

Lockhart, A. M.

Blair, J.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Boldero, H. G.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Boiling, W.

Maunsell, T. P.

Broadley, H.

Neeld, J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Packe, C. W.

Burrell, Sir C.

Parker, R. T.

Chute, W. L. W.

Plumptre, J. P.

Cresswell, C.

Polhill, F.

Darby, G.

Round, J.

Drummond, H. H.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Dungannon, Viscount

Sibthorp, Colonel

Eaton, R. J.

Sotheron, T. E.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Spry, Sir S. T.

Godson, R.

Stewart, J.

Grimsditch, T.

Tollemache, F. J.

Halford, H.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Henniker, Lord

Wood, Colonel T.

Hodgson, F.

Young, Sir W.

Hodgson, R.

Hope, hon. C.

TELLERS.

Hope, G. W.

Egerton, W. T.

Houldsworth, T.

Estcourt, T.

Clause as amended agreed to. It stood as follows,—
"When any county, riding, or division, shall have been divided into districts, every election of a coroner for any such district, shall be held at some place within the district in which he shall be elected to serve the office of Coroner; and every person so elected shall be chosen by a majority of such persons residing within such district, as shall at the time of such election be duly qualified to vote at the elections of Coroners for counties."
Upon clause 14,
Mr. T. Egertonproposed as an amendment, that coroners should be empowered to compel the attendance of witnesses by fine and imprisonment.
Mr. Pakingtonsuggested that the object would be sufficiently attained by raising the fine from 40 s. to 5l.
Mr. Wakleyconceived that the powers already possessed by coroners were amply sufficient for this purpose; but, as some lawyers were of a different opinion, he was glad that the hon. Member for Droitwich had introduced this amendment.
The Solicitor-Generalthought, that the power of enforcing the attendance of witnesses at an early stage of the inquiry ought to be given. As he was now satisfied that the coroner had sufficient power to compel the attendance of witnesses, he therefore suggested that the clause should be postponed. He thought that the fine

1467
that was proposed to be inflicted on witnesses would, in cases of murder, have no effect at all.
Mr. Wakleyhad held 2,000 coroners' inquests, and had experienced no difficulty in obtaining the attendance of important witnesses. If a witness refused to attend on a warrant being issued, and committed a contempt of court, he (Mr. Wakley) would have no hesitation in committing him.
Mr. Jerviswould like to see the hon. Member for Finsbury try the adoption of that course. If he did so with reference to him (Mr. Jervis) he would bring an action against him.
Mr. Wakleyhoped the hon. Member would put the question to the test, as it would save the public much expense, and settle an important point. If he committed a contempt of the coroners' court, he (Mr. Wakley) would commit the hon. Member immediately.
Mr. Grimsditchproposed to strike out of the clause all that related to witnesses.
The Solicitor-General The Solicitor-General moved that the further consideration of the clause be postponed.
Agreed to.
Clause postponed.
On the question that clause 16 stand part of the bill,
Lord G. Somersetsaid, that he proposed that the words "being a barrister or attorney" be struck out of the clause.
Mr. Pakingtonsaid, that he had introduced the clause reluctantly into the bill; but he did so because it was much pressed upon him by those coroners who had communicated with him on the subject.
Mr. Macleansaid, that although he thought coroners should have the power of appointing deputies, be could not agree that the consent of the justices would be either convenient or necessary. He, therefore, meant to propose an amendment in the clause to dispense with such consent.
Mr. Godsonsaid, it was a principle of the law of this country, that no judicial officer should appoint a deputy, and he did not think coroners should have a power which a judge did not possess. He thought the clause should be withdrawn.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that he meant to support the amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford.
Mr. Macleansaid, that he had not put his amendment.
Mr. Wakleythen expressed a hope that the noble Lord (Lord G. Somerset) would
1468
withdraw his amendment, in order that the House might decide on the proposition of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford.
Lord G. Somersetdid not think his amendment at all interfered with that of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
The Solicitor-Generalagreed, that it would be more convenient to dispose of the amendment of the noble Lord, and afterwards consider that of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that if the clause were to pass in its present shape, it would be impossible for the county coroners to exercise their duties, and all they wanted was to be placed in as good a situation as the coroners for boroughs, and particular franchises or liberties.
Lord G. Somersetconsented to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Pakingtonproposed to withdraw the clause, in order that the proposition of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford might be discussed on the bringing up of the report.
Viscount Dungannonopposed the withdrawal of the clause, and said, that if coroners were to be allowed to appoint their own deputies, without any restriction, the result would be, that unqualified persons would be found presiding at inquests.
Mr. F. Maulethought, that instead of getting rid of the clause, they should try to amend it. In cases of illness, or unavoidable absence, coroners should have the power of appointing deputies, but, then, these deputies should be either barristers or attorneys.
Lord G. Somersetcomplained, that the hon. Gentleman bad not treated him fairly, and he therefore should press the proposition of his hon. Friend for withdrawing the clause.
Mr. F. Maulespoke in vindication of the course which he had pursued, and said, that he intended to have spoken on the amendment of the noble Lord, had he not withdrawn it.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, that it was also his intention to have addressed the committee on the amendment of the noble Lord, but that it was withdrawn before he had an opportunity of doing so.
Lord G. Somersetremarked, that all this was most extraordinary to him; but he would now give notice, that on the bringing up of the report he should renew his amendment.
On the question that the clause as amended at follows stand part of the bill:—
"That in case of illness, or unavoidable absence, the coroner shall be empowered and required, by writing under his hand and seal, to appoint a fit person, being a barrister or an attorney, to act for him as deputy coroner during his illness and unavoidable absence, but no longer,"
The Committee divided: Ayes 58; Noes 61: Majority 3.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

O'Brien, C.

Bailey, J. jun.

Palmer, G.

Bell, M.

Pechell, Captain

Berkeley, hon. G.

Plumptre, J. P.

Bethell, R.

Polhill, F.

Bowes, J.

Price, Sir R.

Brotherton, J.

Pryme, G.

Busfeild, W.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

Darby, G.

Salwey, Colonel

Evans, W.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Fielden, J.

Stewart, J.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Stuart, Lord J.

Gisborne, T.

Stock, Mr. Sergeant

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Strickland, Sir G.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Style, Sir C.

Hodges, T. L.

Teignmouth, Lord

Horsman, E.

Thornely, T.

Hoskins, K.

Tuffnell, H.

Howard, hn. C. W. G.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hutt, W.

Wakley. T.

Ingham, R.

Watker, R.

Langdale, hon. C.

Warburton, H.

Lennox, Lord G.

Wilbrabani, hon. B.

Lowther, J. H.

Williams, W.

Lygon, hon. General

Wodehouse, E.

Maclean, D.

Wood, G. W.

Marsland, H.

Wood, B.

Melgund, Viscount

Morris, D.

TELLERS.

Muntz, G. F.

Maule, F.

Norreys, Lord

Wilde, Sir T.

List of the NOES.

Antrobus, E.

Estcourt, T.

Bagge, W.

Farnham, E. B.

Baines, E.

Filmer, Sir E.

Baldwin, C. B.

Godson, R.

Barnsby, J.

Grimston, Viscount

Boldero, H. G.

Halford, H.

Bramston, T. W.

Harcourt, G. G.

Broadley, H.

Heathcote, G. J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Henniker, Lord

Burrell, Sir C.

Hinde, J. H.

Clive, E. B.

Hodgson, R.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Hope, hon. C.

Cresswell, C.

Hope, G. W.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Howard, P. H.

Drummond, H. H.

Hughes, W. B.

Dongannon, Viscount

Hurt, F.

Eaton, R. J.

Jervis, J.

Egerton, W. T.

Kelly, F.

1470

Lambton, H.

Rundle, J.

Marsland, T.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Miles, P. W. S.

Sheppard, T.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Morgan, C. M.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Morgan, O.

Thompson, Mr. Ald.

Neeld, J.

Tollemache, F. J.

O'Connell, D.

Vivian, J. E.

O'Connell, J.

Waddington, H. S.

Packe, C. W.

Wallace, R.

Parker, R. T.

Worsley, Lord

Pigot, right hon. D.

TELLERS.

Round, C. G.

Pakington, J.

Round, J.

Somerset, Lord G.

Clause rejected.
On the 21st clause,
"Whereas by Act 25 Geo. 2, it was enacted, that for every mile which any coroner shall be compelled to travel from his usual place of abode to take any inquisition, the sum of 9d. over and above the sum of 20 s. thereby directed to be paid to him, should be paid to such coroner; and whereas the said sum of 9d. per mile being inadequate to defray such travelling expenses, it is expedient that the same shall be increased; Be it enacted, that for every mile which any coroner shall be compelled to travel from his usual place of abode to take any inquisition, the farther sum of 3rf. per mile, making, together with the said first mentioned sum, the full sum of 1s. per mile in the whole, shall be paid, &c."
Mr. C. Hamiltonthought, that the coroners' mileage should be 1s. 6d. instead of 9d., he therefore moved to substitute 9d. for 3d.
Sir G. Stricklandseconded the amendment. He mm quite sure the sum proposed did not, at least in Yorkshire, cover the coroners' expenses.
Mr. F. Maulesuggested, that if it ware to be 1s. 6d., it should only be for every mile beyond two miles from the coroner s residence.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that the present remuneration of coroners was so low, that in many cases they were out of pocket. This state of things was highly improper, as it might have a tendency to make coroners evade their duties, on which the safety of the public in some degree depended.
The Committee divided on the question that the words "three-pence" stand part of the clause: Ayes 35; Noes 68: Majority 33.

List of the AYES.

Antrobus, E.

Broadley, H.

Baines, E.

Brotherton, J.

Barneby, J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Bethell, R.

Busfeild, W.

1471

Clive, hon. R. H.

O'Brien, C.

Drummond, H. H.

Pakington, J. S.

Estcourt, T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Evans, W.

Somerset, Lord G.

Fielden, J.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Filmer, Sir E.

Stuart, Lord J.

Gisborne, T.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Teignmouth, Lord.

Hurt, F.

Thornely, T.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Walker, R.

Langdale, hon. C.

Wallace, R.

Marsland, H.

Williams, W.

Maule, hon. F.

TELLERS.

Melgund, Viscount

Buller, E.

Neeld, J.

Jervis, J.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lowther, J. H.

Bagge, W.

Lygon, hon. General

Bailey, J. jun.

Maclean, D.

Baldwin, C. B.

Maunsell, T. P.

Bell, M.

Miles, P. W. S.

Berkeley, hon. G.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Boldero, H. G.

Morgan, C. M.

Bowes, J.

Morgan, O.

Bramston, T. W.

Morris, D.

Burrell, Sir C.

Neeld, J.

Clive, E. B.

Norreys, Lord

Darby, G.

Packe, C. W.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Palmer, G.

Dungannon, Viscount

Parker, R. T.

Eaton, R. J.

Pigot, right hon. D.

Egerton, W. T.

Polhill, F.

Ellice, E.

Pryme, G.

Farnham, E. B.

Round, C. G.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Round, J.

Godson, R.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Granby, Marquess of

Salwey, Colonel

Grimston, Viscount

Sheppard, T.

Halford, H.

Stewart, J.

Harcourt, G. G.

Tollemache, F. J.

Heathcote, G. J.

Tuffnell, H.

Henniker, Lord

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hinde, J. H.

Warburton, H.

Hodges, T. L.

Wilbraham, G.

Hodgson, R.

Wodehouse, E.

Hope, G. W.

Wood, G. W.

Hoskins, K.

Wood, B.

Howard, hn. C.W.G.

Worsley, Lord

Hughes, W. B.

Hutt, W.

TELLERS.

Ingham, R.

Hamilton, C.

Kelly, F.

Strickland, Sir G.

It was then moved, that the blank be filled up with "six-pence."
The Committee again divided on the question that the blank be filled up with sixpence:—Ayes 43; Noes 58:—Majority 15.

List of the AYES.

Antrobus, E.

Broadley, H.

Baines, E.

Brotherton, J.

Barneby, J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Bethell, R.

Buller, E.

Bowes, J.

Burrell, Sir C.

1472

Busfeild, W.

Pakington, J. S.

Clive, hn. R. H.

Pigot, right hon. D.

Darby, G.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Drummond, H. H.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Estcourt, T.

Stuart, Lord J.

Evans, W.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Fielden, J.

Teignmouth, Lord

Filmer, Sir E.

Thornely, T.

Gisborne, T.

Tufnell, H.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Waddington, H. S.

Hope, G. W.

Walker, R.

Hurt, F.

Wallace, R.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Warburton, H.

Langdale, hon. C.

Williams, W.

Marsland, H.

Wood, G. W.

Maule, hon. Fox

TELLERS.

Melgund, Viscount

Jervis, J.

Neeld, J.

Egerton, W. T.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lowther, J. H.

Bagge, W.

Lygon, hon. General

Bailey, J. jun.

Maclean, D.

Baldwin, C. B.

Maunsell, T. P.

Bell, M.

Miles, P. W. S.

Berkeley, hon. G.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Boldero, H. G.

Morgan, C. M.

Bramston, T. W.

Morgan, O.

Clive, E. B.

Morris, D.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Neeld, J.

Dungannon, Viscount

Norreys, Lord

Eaton, R. J.

Packe, C. W.

Ellice, E.

Parker, R. T.

Farnham, E. B.

Polhill, F.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Pryme, G.

Godson, R.

Round, C. G.

Granby, Marquess of

Round, J.

Grimston, Viscount

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Halford, H.

Salwey, Colonel

Harcourt, G. G.

Sheppard, T.

Henniker, Lord

Stewart, J.

Hodges, T. L.

Tollemache, F. J.

Hodgson, F.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hodgson, R.

Wilbraham, G.

Holmes, W.

Wodehouse, E.

Hoskins, K.

Wood, B.

Howard, hn. C. W. G.

Worsley, Lord

Hughes, W. B.

Hutt, W.

TELLERS.

Ingham, R.

Hamilton, C.

Kelly, Fitzroy

Strickland, Sir G.

Mr. Fox Mauleproposed, that words be added for the purpose of restricting the charge of mileage to cases in which inquests were held beyond two miles from the coroner's usual residence.
Mr. Wakleyopposed the proviso, as likely to operate most unjustly in densely populated districts.
Mr. Pakingtonalso opposed the amendment. A coroner might have many inquests to attend in one day within that range, and he would be obliged to resort to the usual modes of conveyance, without the chance of reimbursement.
Mr. Fox Mauleultimately agreed to insert the word "additional," before "charge of mileage," and the proviso was then added.
the question that the clause as amended, thus—
"That for every mile which any Coroner shall be compelled to travel from his usual place of abode to take any inquisition, the further sum of ninepence per mile (making, together with the sum of ninepence first mentioned, the full sum of one shilling and sixpence per mile one way in the whole) over and above the fees, &c, be paid to him, &c."
stand part of the bill,
Mr. Barnebysaid, he could not agree to the clause, and he would divide the committee against it.
The committee divided:—Ayes 43; Noes 23: Majority 20.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Maule, hon. Fox

Bailey,J. (jun.)

Morgan, C. M.

Baines, E.

Morgan, O.

Bell, M.

Morris, D.

Berkeley, hon. G.

Norreys, Lord

Boldero, H. G.

Parker, R. T.

Bowes, J.

Pigot, right hon. D.

Dungannon, Viscount

Pryme, G.

Ellice, E.

Round, J.

Fielden, J.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Gaskell, J. M.

Salwey, Colonel

Godson, R.

Stewart, J.

Grimston, Viscount

Teignmouth, Lord

Harcourt, G.

Tollemache, F. J.

Hinde, J. H.

Tufnell, H.

Hodges, T. L.

Wilbraham, G.

Hodgson, F.

Wodehouse, E.

Hodgson, R.

Wood, G. W.

Holmes, W.

Wood, B.

Hope, G. W.

Worsley, Lord

Howard, hn. C. W. G.

TELLERS.

Hughes, W. B.

Strickland, Sir G.

Lowther, J. H.

Douglas, Sir C.

List of the NOES.

Antrobus, E.

Langdale, hon. C.

Brotherton, J.

Marsland, H.

Busfield, W.

Melgund, Viscount

Darby, G.

Neeld, J.

Drummond, H.

Pakington, J. S.

Estcourt, T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Evans, W.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Filmer, Sir E.

Walker, R.

Gisborne, T.

Wallace, R.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Warburton, H.

Hurt, F.

TELLERS.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Barneby, J.

Jervis, J.

Buller, E.

The Chairman reported progress, committee to sit again.
House resumed.—Adjourned.