Commons Sitting of 21 June 1841

MINUTES.
Bills. Head a third time:—Bills of Ex-change; Loan Societies.
Petitions presented. By Sir R. Inglis, from Skillington, and four other places, and by Colonel Perceval, from Fillingham, against any Alteration of the Corn-laws. — By Mr. Dennistoun, from Glasgow, Mearns, Thornlie Bank, Govan, Crosslie, Barrhead, etc. (126 petitions), by Mr. Villiers, from Fenny Stratford, Stony Stratford, Little Hampden, and a great number of other places, by Mr. Leader, from various parts of the Metropolis, and from Leicester, by Mr. Thornely, from various parts of the Metropolis, and by Mr. Walker, from the Districts around London, for the Abolition of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. Plumptre, from Stoke Gelding, against the Grant to Maynooth.—By Mr. Hindley, from Burnbank, for the Revision of the Tariff.—By Mr. Rich, from Kentish Town, for a Reduction of the Duty on Corn, Sugar, and Timber,

ABORIGINES OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA.
Mr. Hindleybegged to call the attention of the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies to a petition which had been presented on a former evening from the Society for the protection of the Aborigines in the British Colonies. That petition complained that two natives of South Australia had been hanged for the alleged murder of two Europeans, and that no sufficient proof of their guilt had been adduced; that in fact they had not had a fair trial, and that their execution under such circumstances was little short of murder, and was, therefore, not at all calculated to answer the only end for which punishment was intended—namely, the prevention of crime. He wished to know from the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) whether (as we understood) any steps had been taken on the subject by the Colonial Department?
Lord J. Russellwas understood to say, that the parties alluded to had been fairly tried, and that there was a protector of aborigines in the colony, who would, of course take cognizance of the affair.
Mr. Hindleyasked of what use was a protector of aborigines, with a salary of 400 l. a-year, if such scenes were suffered to pass with impunity.
Conversation at an end.

IDOLATRY IN INDIA.
Sir R. Inglis, observing the President of the Board of Control in his place, wished to ask him a question relative to the connection of the East India Company with idolatry in India. In doing so, he did not mean to say that nothing had been done by Government on the subject; on the contrary, he could not but compliment the right hon. Baronet on the progress which the question had made since last year. He wished now to know whether the right hon. Baronet could state whether any measures were in progress, or whether he was prepared to recommend the adoption of any measures, so as speedily to ensure the entire separation of the connection between the East-India Government and the local concerns of the idolatrous temples in India.
Sir J. Hobhousesaid, in answer to the question put to him, he had the satisfaction of stating, that he had received by the last mail a memorandum from India on the subject, in a postscript of Which it was stated, that the board of
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revenue had been called on by the Government to report in what districts pagodas existed, the management of the affairs of which might be intrusted to persons professing the same faith as those to whom the pagodas belonged, subject to the control of the Zemindars, but without the necessity of submitting their accounts to any of the official collectors. The right hon. Baronet would see, that if these inquiries of Government were fairly carried out, the objectionable connection which he had alluded to would altogether cease. He need hardly assure the right hon. Baronet, that no exertion on his part should be wanting to carry the inquiry into effect, and that he should immediately express his satisfaction at the inquiry which had been instituted, and his desire, that no time might be lost in bringing it to a conclusion.
Subject at an end.

Mrs. WARNER'S INVENTION.
Mr. Wakleyrose to call the attention of the House to a subject, which had been brought under its notice on a former evening. When he first directed attention to the subject of Mr. Warner's most important discovery of a projectile of extraordinary powers, and stated the great hardship of that gentleman's treatment by the Admiralty, he found that the sympathy of the House went greatly with him, and that there was a still stronger sympathy expressed out of doors on the subject; finding this, and after the articles which had appeared in the Times on the subject, and the remarks of the noble Lord (Lord Ingestrie), the Member for South Staffordshire, he felt, that he ought not to allow the matter to rest where it was. After all that had been stated of this most important discovery—after the investigation of and reports on it by Admirals Sir Robert Keates and Sir Thomas Hardy, he owned he could not but express his great surprise and regret, that the Admiralty should have treated the question with such neglect. Two years were suffered to elapse, without anything further having been done on the subject. In that interval, Mr. Warner went on the continent, and on his return, found Sir J. Graham at the head of the Admiralty. It was, at first, proposed to bring the subject forward by a motion in the House of Commons, but that was stopped by Sir J. Graham, who deemed it prudent to avoid a public dis

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cussion, and he appointed a committee of naval and military officers to inquire into the matter; but this was retarded by a change in the Administration. Sir R. Stopford, the intended president of the committee, thought it too numerous, and before a smaller board could be constituted he left England to assume the command of the fleet in the Mediterranean. The attention of the Government was at length again called to the subject, and Lord Melbourne was willing to leave the matter to the Admiralty. It was then referred to Lieutenant Webster of the Royal Navy, who made a report on it to the Admiralty:—
"The report to the Admiralty was made (said Mr. Walesby, in his pamphlet), on the 16th of September, 1839; and on the 18th of January, 1840, Mr. Warner learned with amazement, from the hon. Mr. Cowper, Lord Melbourne's private secretary, that no report had been received from the Admiralty on the subject. How easily may ten years be frittered away, without any laches on the part of an applicant, under a state of things where such delays are of ordinary occurrence? When a respectful remonstrance was addressed to the Admiralty, the reply in excuse for this silence was, that Lieutenant Webster's report contained no data or explanation whence an independent opinion could be formed of the nature or merits of the discoveries and inventions in question. Of course not, else why was the intervention of a third party between the Prime Minister and the Admiralty required? Sir William Parker said, the report contained only Lieutenant Webster's opinion. That officer was requested by Lord Melbourne's private secretary, and Mr. Warner to give no more than his opinion of results."
But surely it would not be said, that this was a proper mode of transacting the public business of so important a department. The statements in the Times, and in the able pamphlet of Mr. Walesby, the barrister, confirmed as they were by the observations of the noble Lord (Lord Ingestrie) were of such importance, that he felt, that the public would not be satisfied, if the matter were allowed to rest where it was. What he now wanted, was a copy of the report of Mr. Webster, which he would read. The hon. Member here read the following extract:—
" 28 B, Manchester-street, Manchester-square, Oct. 10 1839.
" My Lord,—I beg to inform your Lordship that the principle and practice of the various projects of which Captain Warner is the in
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ventor, having been fully shown and explained to me by that gentleman, and being most thoroughly satisfied of their effectiveness, an outline of the same project was, on Monday, the 16th of September last, duly reported by me to Sir William Parker, with an urgent request on my part that, seeing the extreme importance of the matter, not a moment's delay might be incurred in laying the whole before your Lordship, together with my distinctly expressed opinion, that their merits are so extraordinary as to vest the absolute sovereignty of the seas in the hands of the first power that shall adopt them. I am fully convinced that it is utterly impossible for any thing that floats to resist them for a single moment, either close quarters or any given distance, even to a range of five or six miles. The strongest fortifications in Europe could not withstand these extraordinary powers for a single hour. In river ways and against stockades, as in India, the largest armies would be annihilated without a chance of escape; and the most difficult mountain passes would be utterly untenable against their operation. The country would thus be rendered impregnable, for 100 sail of the line would be useless against a single vessel so constructed; and, whenever it should be necessary to call this power into action, its effects could be attained by a trifling expense, and at the shortest notice. I submit, however, to your Lordship, that the invention should he dormant until a case of emergency, and that the secret should be confined to the projector, the Crown, and your Lordship's own breast; not a whisper of its existence should be suffered to get abroad. I solemnly declare to your Lordship, that I consider the whole country deeply indebted to Captain Warner for these inventions, were they to cost the nation five times what he asks for them; and not less gratitude is due to him for the patience, forbearance, and self-denial he has shown, when, with so mighty a secret in his bosom, his own interests would have been established in any other land by the least disclosure. I therefore, earnestly entreat your Lordship no longer to neglect a man upon whom the existence of the country depends.
" I have the honour to be, &c,
" W. WEBSTER, Lieutenant (A.) R..N.
" Right hon. Lord Viscount Melbourne."
He should also wish for the production of the letter of Lieutenant Webster to Admiral Sir W. Parker, of which he read an extract:—
" I beg permission to refer you once more to my report of the 10th of October last, to Lord Melbourne, which perfectly agrees with all I had the honour to state to yourself before Sir John Pechell, in the interview alluded to of the 16th of September last, and to repeat in writing my solemn pledge and assurance as a gentleman, an officer of her Majesty's navy, and a British subject, anxious for the interests

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of his country, that every word and sentence of the report in question is perfectly and entirely true, and that the existence of the British nation, with every interest attached to it, depends on the hands into which the inventions of Captain Warner shall fall, and I beg to add, that the responsibility of any further delay is not mine, but must rest with those who may ultimately have to answer for it to the British nation. Retaining a copy of this communication, I have the honour to be, Sir, with the highest estimation, your very humble servant.
" WILLIAM WEBSTER, Lieutenant (A) R.N.
" To Admiral Sir William Parker, K.C.B."
Now, this opinion of a Gentleman appointed to investigate the matter by the sanction of Lord Melbourne, was entitled to more attention than had been paid to it by the Admiralty. If it should be objected that Mr. Warner was an enthusiast or an impostor, it could not be said, that Mr. Webster was one. He had fought in seventeen engagements, and had been selected for his great skill and experience. Captain Warner, he must say, had been very ill treated, but there was another party who had been worse treated, he meant the British public, who were deeply interested in this important discovery, which, however, had been regarded by the Admiralty as if it were the project of some wild and visionary enthusiast. Indeed, this neglect of the Admiralty was illustrated by the non-attendance on this motion, of which due notice had been given, of any one connected with the Admiralty Board. It was objected by some, that this discovery of Mr. Warner proposed to do that which was impossible. It did nothing of the kind, though no doubt what he proposed would by many be so considered. If a man a century ago had proposed to accomplish the voyage from England to New York in eleven days, or if he said that he had invented a mode of conveyance by which a man breakfasting in Manchester, might on the same day dine in London, and go on the same evening to the House of Commons, and deliver a speech which he had fabricated and arranged in the carriage—if a man proposed to do this a century ago, would he not have been set down as a madman, to whose wild speculation no attention should be paid? But we have seen all those things accomplished, and now ceased to wonder at them. He had already mentioned the high testimony bore to the extraordinary powers of this projectile by many most competent judges. Let him
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add, that the last experiment was made in the presence (amongst others) of Sir R. Peel, Sir H. Hardinge, and Sir G. Murray, Sir F. Burdett, and Lord Ingestrie. What was the testimony borne to Mr. Warner's ability by Sir G. Murray?
" He is himself a man whose frankness of manner, intelligent conversation, and whole deportment, are of a nature to inspire confidence; and whose practical knowledge affords a strong guarantee (in addition to the experiments he has actually exhibited) that his expectations will be, to a very great extent, at least, if not wholly, accomplished."
He had no knowledge of this matter himself, but from communications which he had had with a distinguished naval officer, it appeared to him that the statements in the Times, in Mr. Walesby's pamphlet, and in the remarks of the noble Lord (Lord Ingestrie,) instead of being above, were rather below the reality as to the powers of Mr. Warner's discovery. He was therefore most anxious, for the sake of justice—for the sake of the country, that this most deserving individual should be rescued from the hands of the Admiralty. He did not blame Lord Melbourne, but he certainly did think that much blame was due to the Lords of the Admiralty in having so long neglected so important a subject. He had heard it said, that a foreign state had offered Mr. Warner the sum of 300,000 l., and if the statements made in these discussions, should go forth to the continent, as no doubt they would, they would produce offers of a much higher sum, but from what he knew of Mr. Warner be had no fears on that head. His attachment to his country, and his devotion to its interests, were a sure guarantee that he would not, for any pecuniary reward, to any amount, transfer to a foreign state a secret which was of so much importance to his own country. At the same time, he ought not to be exposed to such temptation. All that he asked for Mr. Warner was, that justice should be done to him, and if the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, would only intimate the intention of Government to take the subject into consideration in the next Session, he would be satisfied, and not press his motion. The hon. Member concluded by moving,
"That there be laid before the House, copies of any correspondence between the First Lord of the Treasury and Mr. Warner

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relative to a certain discovery said to be applicable to naval and military tactics. Also a copy of any report from Lieutenant Webster, R. N., on the same subject."
Lord J. Russellsaid, that he was but very imperfectly informed on the subject to which the hon. Gentleman's motion referred, and he regretted the absence of his hon. Friends connected with the Admiralty Board, who could have put the House in possession of those details with which he (Lord J. Russell) was unacquainted. He hoped the House would not agree to the motion until some explanations were given, for he did think the production of the documents referred to, might not be advantageous to the public interests. As to the appointment of Lieutenant Webster, he understood it was not made either by his noble Friend, at the head of the Treasury, or by the Board of Admiralty. He had offered himself to investigate the matter, as the friend of Mr. Warner, and his offer was accepted, but his report could not be received as an official authority, or any thing more than an expression of his own individual opinion. He had always understood that the point on which the negotiations were broken off was some difference as to the method of communicating the means by which the proposed results were to be accomplished. At the Admiralty, it was thought that these effects might be produced by means with which they were already acquainted, though by a different application, and that they should be put more fully into possession of the details. He agreed that some explanation ought to be given on the subject, that would be satisfactory to the House and the country, and that further negotiations relative to it should be gone into.
Sir R. Inglisowed it to Mr. Warner to state, that be had seen two letters from individuals who were second only to the Duke of Wellington as military authorities and who declared themselves strongly in favour of Mr. Warner's invention. He hoped, however, that the hon. Member for Finsbury, after what had fallen from the noble Lord opposite, would not press his motion.
Viscount Ingestrieregretted that so little attention should have been paid by the Board of Admiralty to a subject of such high national importance; and that not even one Member connected with that board should be present on this occasion. The whole subject had been grievously neglected, and he must say,
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that much blame attached somewhere for the matter not receiving that consideration which it demanded, and which now risked its loss to the country through the apathy of the Government. It had been said, that Mr. Warner and Lieutenant Webster were enthusiasts or madmen on this subject, and for all he knew, the same might have been said of himself; but, for all that, he would boldly assert that this was a discovery, the proper use of which would be of the most vital importance to the country. If the whole of the circumstances, if the total neglect with which the discovery had been treated, were fully known to the public, he had no doubt that they would have a powerful effect on the appeal now about to be made by the Government to the country. After the best consideration that he was enabled to give to the question, he would repeat what he said on a former evening, that enough had been shown to warrant a demand that the subject should be most fully investigated, and he would also repeat, that Mr. Warner was entitled to the gratitude of the country for those high and patriotic feelings with which he had refused great pecuniary advantages for imparting to other states the secret which he now possessed. He should be sorry if any discussions or investigations should be gone into in that House, which might excite the attention of other powers, and possibly have the effect of making the inventor exorbitant in his demands. As to the appointment of Lieutenant Webster, the noble Lord was mistaken in supposing that it took place, because he was the friend of Mr. Warner. The fact was, that on the report of Sir Richard Keates, and Sir Thomas Hardy being made, it was suggested that it should not be acted upon till the Government had had also the opinion of some practical naval man. Lieutenant Webster was then selected, and Mr. Warner had never seen him until a few days before he was appointed. But it was quite clear that the Admiralty bad always looked on the plan as visionary, and were not disposed to give it a full and fair trial, so little so, indeed, that after Lieutenant Webster's report had been received and approved of, he was treated by the Admiralty as if he had been a co-conspirator in forwarding Mr. Warner's plan; but he repeated that he was only known to Mr. Warner five days before his appointment. It was objected to Lieutenant Webster,

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that his report dealt only in generals; Lieutenant Webster, however, could not have done otherwise without stating the very thing which was to be kept secret, nor could he now go into any detail on the subject without incurring the same risk. Looking at the whole case, he did trust that the attention of the Government would not be withdrawn from a due consideration of a matter of such deep importance to the country.
Mr. Cowpersaid, that in reference to the point just alluded to by the noble Lord, he begged to state, that when Captain Warner applied to Lord Melbourne, he was told, that the subject to which his application referred was a matter rather for the Admiralty, than for the Treasury, and he (Mr. Cowper) suggested to him the propriety of an application to the Lords of the Admiralty. He had himself had an interview with Captain Warner on the subject, and said to him, that it would be satisfactory that some person connected with the Royal Navy should speak as to the advantages of the invention, and upon that, Captain Warner himself suggested— as he (Mr. Cowper) understood as a friend of his—Lieutenant Webster, who was acquainted to some extent with the nature of the invention, and he believed that Lieutenant Webster actually went to the Admiralty as the friend of Captain Warner, and not as a person selected or nominated as an umpire, either by the Lords of the Admiralty or by Lord Melbourne. He also believed, that the reason why the interview at the Admiralty was not more satisfactory to Captain Warner arose from the circumstance, that he would not comply with the conditions which the Lords of the Admiralty wished to affix to the explanation of his invention, and he rather thought, also, that some doubt had arisen as to the number of persons to whom such explanation was to be referred. At all events, in his interview with Captain Warner, he had offered to him, to refer the inquiry into the nature and character of the invention to a committee of engineer officers. That offer, was however declined, and therefore the reason why the invention had not been inquired into was, because Captain Warner would not accede to the terms and manner of the inquiry. He (Mr. Cowper) could not help thinking that this was an unfortunate mode of introducing such a subject, and he regretted that the present motion should
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have been brought forward. He trusted, however, that the hon. Member for Finsbury would not press it, or persevere in moving for the correspondence. It seemed to be admitted, that the invention ought to be kept secret, and the production of any correspondence would only serve to create publicity. As to the correspondence between the First Lord of the Treasury and Captain Warner, it was so immaterial as not to be worth moving- for, and therefore, that motion ought to be opposed. As to the report of Lieutenant Webster, it was not official, and therefore ought not to be produced. It was the mere report made by a friend of the inventor, and not that of a person empowered to act as umpire in the matter.
Viscount Ingestriebegged to ask the hon. Member for Hertford whether Lieutenant Webster had not been approved of both by the Admiralty, and by Lord Melbourne?
Mr. W. F. Cowper: I think they approved of him, but not as an umpire.
Mr. Plumptresaid, he was sure the House ought not to be satisfied, as he was sure the country would not be satisfied, unless some assurance was given by the noble Lord opposite, or by some other Member of the Government, that the benefit of this marvellous invention should not be lost to this country, but that measures would immediately be taken to secure that benefit. As so much had now transpired and become known with respect to this invention, he must say, that he thought it became the noble Lord opposite, or somebody else connected with the Government, to assure the House and the country, that Captain Warner, who had already been treated with the greatest neglect, would not have that neglect longer continued.
Mr. Wakleyreplied. The explanation of the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies was, to a certain extent, satisfactory to him, though he should have been much better pleased if the noble Lord had known more upon the subject. The noble Lord, however, could not be expected to know everything. The noble Lord had spoken of the impropriety of publishing the correspondence. Now, he did not know what that correspondence contained. He had never seen Captain Warner, nor held any communication with him, and his only reason for

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bringing the matter forward was, that Captain Warner might understand that in the House of Commons there was a sympathy felt for him, if there was none at the Admiralty. He had been most desirous that some other Member more competent than himself to do justice to the subject should have brought it forward, and he could appeal to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Ingestrie) whether he had not endeavoured to induce other hon. Members to do so. In that effort, however, he had failed. As Mr. Walesby in his pamphlet had expressed a hope that some Member would bring the matter under the consideration of the House, and believing from that expression that Captain Warner and his friends had lost all hope of succeeding with the Admiralty, he had felt it his duty, failing in his efforts to induce others to do so, to notice it. Now, a great deal had been said about keeping this matter a secret. But was not the invention already well known? Why, in the first place, besides Mr. Walesby's pamphlet, it had been noticed so long ago as August last in reports in The Times newspaper, and those reports had attracted the attention of the whole world. They had been repeated three or four times, and in February last that journal gave an account of experiments made on the invention in the presence of Sir R. Peel, of Sir H. Hardinge, and of Sir G. Murray, and thus a publicity had been given to it greater than any notice in this House. In his judgment, instead of secresy in the matter, the best plan was to let foreign nations know that this country possessed such a secret, and then they would not be so ready to assail the British fleets. The best way to preserve life and power was to let people know that this country was prepared to defend both. After what the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, had stated, he (Mr. Wakley) would not press his motion, but he sincerely hoped the matter would be taken up in a future Parliament by some other person. He might not be there to give the noble Lord any trouble about it—he hoped he might, for he thought there had been great carelessness and neglect on the part of the Government, and he thought it was the duly of the Government, probably of the noble Lord himself, to institute a rigid inquiry into what had been done in the matter, and to take immediate steps in it. If not, he (Mr. Wakley) was sure, that
great dissatisfaction would arise in the public mind.
Motion withdrawn.

BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.
Lord J. Russell, in moving the House to agree to the Lords' Amendments in the Bribery at Elections Bill, expressed his regret that the bill should have been so much altered as only to leave one clause of the many sent up from this House. He begged to observe, that it was utterly untrue, as had been suggested, that this measure had been produced without due consideration. The bill was framed upon a measure introduced some years ago by the right hon. Member for the county of Montgomery (Mr. C. W. Wynn), and had been introduced by him (Lord J. Russell) last Session. He regretted the omission of the clauses struck out by the Lords, because it would prevent that searching inquiry which was necessary in questions of bribery. However, there still remained in the bill as sent down one clause which settled a point upon which there had been so much difference of opinion in election committees—he alluded to the point as to the proof of agency before acts of bribery were admissible in evidence, and, therefore, though so much of the bill had been struck out, he was willing to accept the bill as amended, rather than lose the benefit and advantage of the small portion that remained.
Motion agreed to.

DANISH CLAIMS.
Lord J. Russellappeared at the Bar with her Majesty's answer to the address of this House on the subject of the Danish claims, which the noble Lord read as follows:—
"VICTORIA R.
" It must at all times be my most earnest desire to attend to the wishes of the House of Commons, and I shall be ready to give effect to them in this instance, whenever the means shall have been provided by Parliament."
On the motion of the noble Lord, her Majesty's most gracious answer was ordered to be entered on the journals.
Adjourned.