Commons Sitting of 16 June 1841

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Loan Societies! Bills of Exchange.—Read a second time:—Court of Chancery.—Read a third time:— Ecclesiastical Commissioners.
Petitions presented. By Sir Matthew Wood, Mr. Strutt, Mr. Villicrs, Mr. Mark Phillips, Sir Do Lacy Evans, Mr. Wakley, Mr. Thomas Duncombe, Mr. Wynn Ellis, and Lord John Russell, from the City, from Derbyshire, Westmoreland, Brixton, Egham, Belfast, various Parishes in the Metropolis, Cumberland, Lancashire, Surrey, Greenwich, and a great many other places, for a Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. Pringle, from Kelso, and other places in Scotland, by Mr. Kemble, from places in Surrey, and by Mr. Gore, jun., from Salop, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. Mark Phillips, from many of the Manufacturing Districts, complaining of Distress.—By Mr. Kemble, and Sir R. Inglis, from Batter-sea, and other places, for Church Extension.

AMENDMENTS IMPROPERLY MADE IN BILLS.
Lord J. Russellhaving moved the third reading of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Bill; on the question being put,
Sir E. Sugdensaid, he would take that opportunity to protest against the practice of introducing important alterations into bills at the third reading without notice to the House. Nothing could be more inconvenient. An instance had occurred the other night, in the case of the Bribery at Elections Bill, into the first clause of which words had been introduced by a member of the Government without notice, for giving the unheard-of power to the chairman of an election committee to issue his warrant to the sergeant-at-arms to commit any Member of the House to the custody of the said sergeant without bail or mainprise for any time not exceeding twenty-four hours, if the House shall be then sitting; and if not, then for a time not exceeding twenty-four hours after the hour to which the House shall then be adjourned. The words which had been introduced wholly altered the nature of the clause, and he was sure that a provision so completely objectionable could not have met the eye of the right hon. Gentleman in the chair, or he would have felt it his duty to point out to the House

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the impropriety of it. However, this not having been done, the bill with the clause, objectionable as it was, was now in the House of Lords. It was only this morning that the matter had come to his knowledge, and he had felt that it was his duty to call the attention of the House to the subject.
Dr. Nichollsaid, that he had thought, upon looking into the bill, on coming into the House on the evening it was to be read a third time, that the words were not extensive enough as they stood, and he had mentioned his doubt to the Solicitor-general, who undertook to introduce some words which he (Dr. Nicholl) suggested. But the Solicitor-general was in no way responsible for the alteration, of which he was afraid he was innocently the cause.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that when the Solicitor-general got up to move this alteration, he (Lord J. Russell) was not aware that any such amendment was to be made. However, from the Solicitor-general's explanation, he gathered that it was merely one of those technical amendments which might very well be made in bills at the third reading. The right hon. Gentleman would, therefore, see, that he (Lord J. Russell) was not to blame in the matter.
The Ecclesiastical Commissioners Bill read a third time and passed.

COURT OF CHANCERY.
On the motion of Lord J. Russell, the Court of Chancery Bill was read a second time.
On the question that the bill be committed,
Sir E. Sugdens said, he very much objected to this measure. Last Session a bill had passed into a law, giving the Lord Chancellor greater power than had ever before, he believed, been conferred on an individual—legislative powers, in short, subject to the condition, that the orders which might be made in pursuance of such powers should lay on the Table of the House of Commons for thirty days; and, if not objected to, should, at the end of that time, come into operation. This was a salutary check upon these enormous powers, but this bill continued the powers while it did away with the check; it provided that the orders of the Chancellor should be law, and should come into operation immediately upon being issued, but that they should be laid on the Table, and that the House, if it pleased, might rescind them. This he thought most ob-
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jectionable, but as this bill had passed the other House, although without having received that consideration (he spoke advisedly) which it ought to have had, and as it was deemed of importance by her Majesty's Government, he should not divide the House against the further progress of it. Nevertheless, he fully reserved to himself the right of objecting, as he possibly might find it his duty to do, to any orders which might be laid upon the Table in pursuance of this bill.
The Attorney Generalsaid, that the bill of last Session had not been acted upon, for the Lord Chancellor, he believed, was afraid to act upon it; because, without this bill, if under the act of last Session the Lord Chancellor had issued any order, such order, however inconvenient its operation might have turned out to be, could not have been altered in any way until it had been thirty-six sitting days before Parliament. It was thought better that there should be an opportunity for revision, alteration, and correction, and this provision in the bill had been framed accordingly.
To be committed on the following day.

NEW PROJECTILE.
Mr. Wakleyrose, in pursuance of notice, "to inquire of Lord Viscount Ingestrie whether some experiments, said to have been witnessed by his Lordship, which were performed by Mr. Warner, to demonstrate the power and utility of certain inventions alleged to be applicable to naval and military conflicts, were correctly described in a morning journal, and in a pamphlet recently published by Mr. Walesby, the barrister." The hon. Member said, that in the month of August last, an editorial notice appeared in The Times journal, stating, that a discovery had been made of an enormous power, applicable to the purpose of destruction, and calculated to affect, in an extraordinary degree, the usual course of warfare on the face of the civilised globe. It was represented to have a force so vast and extraordinary, that it was difficult for those who had not examined it to believe that such a thing could exist; but at the same time, the writer of the article challenged inquiry, and gave an account of proceedings which had taken place in relation to it before his late Majesty William 4th, and also the Lords of the Admiralty. It appeared that the matter had been afterwards laid be-

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fore Viscount Melbourne, who had referred it to the Lords of the Admiralty. The notice which appeared in the newspaper he had mentioned in August was followed by two or three others in September, and then the question appeared to be set at rest till the month of February in the present year, when another notice appeared, giving an account of an experiment, said to have been performed on a sheet of water, in Essex, on the property of Mr. Boyd. The writer stated, that—
" The trial took place in the grounds of Mr. Boyd, in the county of Essex, a few miles from town, in the presence of Sir R. Peel, Sir G. Murray, Sir H. Hardinge, Sir F. Burdett, Lord Ingestrie, Colonel Gurwood, Captain Britton, Captain Webster, and some other gentlemen, who all appeared very much astonished at what they saw. A boat, twenty-three feet long and seven broad, was placed in a large sheet of water; the boat had been the day before filled in with solid timber, four-and-a-half feet in depth, crossed in every direction, and clamped together with eight-inch spike nails. This filling in was made under the inspection of Captain Britton, who stated the fact to the distinguished gentlemen we have mentioned, and also that the inventor never went near the workmen employed, that no suspicion might be entertained of any combustible materials being lodged in the hold of the vessel. Several of the gentlemen were on Saturday rowed in a punt to the vessel, and examined it for themselves, so that every doubt might be removed as to the cause of destruction being external, and not from the springing of any mine. When the different parties had taken up their positions, on a signal from the inventor, the boat was set in motion, and struck just abaft her starboard bow, and instantaneously scattered into a thousand fragments. At the moment of collision the water parted, and presented to the eye of our informant the appearance of a huge bowl, while upon its troubled surface he noticed a coruscation precisely resembling forked lightning. A column of water was lifted up in the air like a huge fountain, from which were projected upwards for many hundred feet the shattered fragments of the vessel, which fell, many of them, several hundred yards distance in the adjacent fields. Our informant examined many pieces, and found the huge nails snapped like carrots; the mast looked like a tree riven by lightning, and never before, as he assures us, has he witnessed so sudden and complete a destruction, though he has seen shell and rocket practice on the largest scale.
The hon. Member proceeded to say, that this was nearly all he knew on the subject. He thought the House and the country were entitled to some information
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on a question of such vast magnitude, affecting the maritime power of the country, and important both as regarded the demands of humanity and considerations of public economy. If such a power as this was in existence, there would be an end of war, for he believed very few persons would be found willing to expose themselves to such a force as was described in the account he had read. What he wished to know from the noble Lord opposite, who had witnessed more than one experiment, was, whether the account given in the Times newspaper, which had been repeated by Mr. Walesby, a gentleman of undoubted veracity, was true, and entitled to belief.
Viscount Ingestriesaid, that in answer to the question put to him, he would state shortly to the House, that in his opinion the account of the experiment alluded to by the hon. Member was perfectly true. He very much regretted that this subject had been brought before the public by means either of a newspaper or a pamphlet, or by a conversation in that House; because he thought the immense power obtained by this invention ought to have been secured to the country in the most secret manner possible. He had been aware of this invention now for upwards of a year. His attention had been called to it by an indistinct paragraph which he saw by accident in a newspaper. It struck him that there was something behind more than met the eye, and he followed up the track. He could only state, that from that hour his conviction had become stronger every moment, that the possession of the invention was of the greatest possible moment to this country. He should hesitate in making this statement were it only his own opinion, but when the same opinion had been expressed to her Majesty's Government by such distinguished officers as Sir Richard Keats and Sir Thomas Hardy, who, unfortunately, were now no more, he could not refrain from saying, that this was a subject of the greatest possible importance to this country. There were other officers, now living, who had witnessed the experiment, and among them General Sir G. Murray, who had gone to see the experiment, at his suggestion, and who was struck, as everybody must be, with the immense power which was contained in a small compass. That gallant officer had authorized him to say, that after communicating further with the

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inventor, he had had an interview with the first Lord of the Treasury, to state to him his opinion that Government ought to inquire into the matter. The inventor of this new power had, to his knowledge, expended the whole of his fortune upon it, and had been for ten years endeavouring to press on the Government the necessity of taking up the subject. The inventor had been pressed in away which he (Lord Ingestrie) need not describe, but which was certainly most embarrassing, and he would say, that the House and the country owed him the greatest possible gratitude, for his patriotism, in resisting the most tempting offers from foreign Governments, which would have at once relieved him from all his difficulties. The gentleman of whom he spoke persisted nobly, determined to sacrifice his own pecuniary interests for the present, in order that the benefits of the invention might be secured to his own country. He (Viscount Ingestrie) felt very strongly and deeply on this subject; he had taken it up in no light spirit; he had investigated it, and believed it to be of the most vital importance. Through his means the inventor had had communication, both personally and by letter, with the First Lord of the Treasury; he had not failed to urge on the noble Lord the necessity of ascertaining whether the discovery were worth possessing or not. It could easily be ascertained, in a very short time, whether the invention were valuable or not; that was all he asked for; but he must say, that it was cruel to the inventor, and unjust to the country, that the question should not long ago have been decided. He had given the noble Lord, at the head of the Treasury, a warning that he might feel it his duty to bring the question before the House, and, had the Session continued, he should probably have submitted a distinct motion with reference to it. Now, that the matter had become public, he hoped no further time would be lost, but he must repeat his regret at this publicity having been given to it, as it would render negotiation more difficult with the inventor, and, in his opinion, the secret ought to have remained in the breast of the noble Lord and of the inventor.
Sir F. Burdetthad been a witness to the experiment, and, though no one could adequately judge of it who had not seen war, he would state that he could not conceive a sight more astonishing. The
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contrast between the small bulk and trivial appearance of the instrument, and the mighty effects produced, was most marvellous. The explosion scattered the substance against which the projectile was directed into fragments, some of which were blown over a grove of high trees near the spot. He had himself raised up a fragment about half as large as a table. He hoped means would be taken to secure to the country a power of such magnitude, and which those who could estimate it said would produce effects infinitely greater than any invention of the kind yet heard of.
Mr. Brothertoncould not see the wisdom of making such a discovery public. He disapproved of giving rewards to men who exercised the noblest powers of mind in devising means of destruction, instead of devoting them to objects useful to society. It was said this would have the effect of putting an end to war, and he sincerely hoped it might.
Conversation terminated.
House adjourned.