Commons Sitting of 11 February 1841

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBERS.—Lord Viscount Eastnor, for Reigate; the Earl of Listowel, for St. Alban's.
Bills. Read a second time:—Court of Exchequer (Ireland); Tithe Compositions (Ireland).—Read a first time:—Turnpike Acts Continuance (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By Mr. Hodges, and Mr. V. Smith, from Bromley, St. Mary Cray, Chisselhurst, Northampton, and other places, against the Bill for Continuing and Increasing the Power of the Poor-law Commissioners.— By Mr. F. French, from the Medical Practitioners in Mayo, and other places, for the better regulation of Medical Charities.—By Mr. Greene, from Turnkeys, and other Officers of Gaols, for some legal provision for their Support.—By Mr. Hume, from Anderston, for an Extension of the Suffrage.

NIGER EXPEDITION
Lord Ingestriewished to ask a question of the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, on the subject of the Expedition to the Niger. He understood, that the steamer had been delayed much beyond its time, and the consequence was, that the expedition, if now sent out, would arrive out at the most unhealthy season of the year. He wished to know, whether the Government intended that it should now proceed?
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the steamer was delayed, because it was ascertained, that the waters of the Niger were not sufficiently deep to admit that vessel, till later in the year.
Mr. Humewished to ask whether the noble Lord would have any objection to lay before the House a copy of the instructions given to those who had charge of the expedition? The public, in fact, did not know what were the objects of this expedition.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the instructions were laid on the Table of the House last year. He was not prepared to lay any other instructions before the House on the subject.
Lord Ingestrieasked whether the expedition would not arrive on the coast at the most unhealthy season of the year, if sent out at the time fixed for its departure?
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the climate on the coast might be unhealthy, but it would not be found so as the expedition advanced up the river.

CLAIMS ON PORTUGAL.
Viscount Sandonwas very sorry to be obliged again to trouble the House with a question which had already too often occupied its attention. He had hoped from what transpired last Session, that the claims of British subjects upon the Portuguese government were in a fair way of being adjusted, and would require no further interference on his part. But on his return to London, he found, that the settlement of the claims of British officers and soldiers upon the Crown of Portugal, were exactly in the same position as when the Parliament closed. He found, that there was not one claim settled, and that no step had been taken towards the final adjustment. In order to show the House, that he was not needlessly complaining of delay, he would remind them of the state of this question. In the first place, these

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claims had now remained unsettled for the space of six years. In the month of March, last year, his noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, announced in that year, that the Portuguese government had at length agreed to appoint commissioners for the purpose of settling these claims. In answer to a question which he put to his noble Friend, he stated, that a commissioner had been appointed by that government, and on the 30th March that a commissioner had also been appointed by the British Government. In May, the Portuguese commissioner arrived, and in the month of June, the claimants applied to the British commissioner for information how they were to proceed. On the 29th of June, he took the liberty of putting to his noble Friend further questions, and the reply was, in a few days the commissioner would be able to begin the investigation. The first sign of life which the commissioners publicly gave, was an announcement in the month of November, that they were appointed, and even then they did not say, that they were prepared to investigate claims. It was not till the month of December, that they invited the claimants to bring their claims before them. Now he had discovered that up to that very moment there had not been a single claim investigated. A question still existed, he believed, between the commissioners, or between the Governments upon what principle these claims were to be adjusted, or what was the contract upon which they would rest. Considering that it was stated in the early part of last Session, that there was then no question at issue that might not be settled in a few days, and that if the Portuguese government did not proceed with the matter within fourteen days, the British Government were prepared to take the question into their own hands, he was surprised that the British Government should not have made up their mind earlier what was the contract upon which rested the claims of British subjects; and if they had not yet done so, he thought the earliest steps should be taken for the purpose of effecting an adjustment. He was most anxious to call the attention of the House to the condition of the question, and he should, therefore, take the liberty of moving for the following returns;—
"A copy of the mixed British and Portu-
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guese commission for investigating and deter, mining the naval and military claims on the Government of Portugal, arising out of the late war of restoration; also a copy of the convention between the British and Portuguese Governments relating to the issuing of such commission; also a copy of the instructions and rules framed for the guidance and direction of the commissioners; also a return of what has been done by the commissioners, and what progress has been made in the investigation of claims, and the number of claims, if any, which have been investigated and adjudicated; and, if not any, the causes of the delay."
Viscount Palmerstoncould assure his noble Friend, it was with great regret, that he was not able to state to him and the House, that these claims were fairly and amicably settled. But his noble Friend was mistaken if he fancied that he found matters now as they were when he left London at the end of the last Session of Parliament. On the contrary very considerable progress had been made, and he hoped no great time would elapse before these affairs would finally be brought to a settlement. The House was aware, that a long correspondence had taken place between the two Governments before they came to an agreement for the appointment of a commission to sit in London; the commissioners to consist of one commissioner named by the British Government, and another to be named by the Portuguese Government. It was also well known, that the Portuguese wished the commission to sit in Lisbon, but they yielded that point. Then a difficulty arose in the choice of a commissioner on their part, and one or two persons to whom the appointment was offered, found themselves unable to undertake the duty. At last, the Portuguese government selected an officer well qualified in every respect for the duties attending the commission—an officer conversant with the English military service, who spoke the English language, and whose character was calculated to inspire confidence, that while he would do his duty to his own country, he would not take an unfair advantage of the English claimants. When the commissioners met in London, the first thing required of them was to draw up a code of rules and regulations to guide them in the performance of their duties. This occupied some considerable time, but at last the code was prepared and signed by the Portuguese minister in this country, and by him (Lord Palmer-

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ston) on behalf of Great Britain. The commissioners then proceeded, and the first and most important duty they had to perform was, to come to an understanding upon the difficult question of the several contracts of service, and though his noble Friend might imagine that point could be settled in a very few days, yet he (Lord Palmerston) could assure his hon. Friend, who could not be so conversant with the matter as he necessarily was, that this part of the duty was not quite so easy as his noble Friend seemed to imagine. One part of the arrangement between the Portuguese and British Governments was, that if the two commissioners should differ, they should refer the point in dispute to some person who should act as arbiter between them. After some further delay, it was arranged, that the arbiter should be the representative of some foreign government at this court, and the choice fell upon the Belgian minister, who was kind enough, at the request of the Portuguese minister, and at his request, to undertake the duty. The high character of that distinguished individual, the knowledge he possessed of Portugal as well as England, and the soundness of his judgment rendered him peculiarly qualified for the task he had the goodness to accept. The two commissioners, whilst employed discussing the question of the contracts, had not been able to come to a decision, and, consequently had each of them prepared a statement of their respective views of the question. He had seen the statement of the British commissioner (Mr. Alcock), a document which reflected great credit upon that gentleman's assiduity and ability, and both the commissioners were now just about to refer to the umpire the decision of the point of difficulty between them. When that point was once decided, the matters which would remain were of less difficulty, and he should hope, that when the principle was once established, the adjustment of the claims would not occupy any great length of time. With regard to the papers which his noble Friend had moved for, he had to state, that no convention had been signed, but that an agreement had been come to by a course of diplomatic communications, partly written, and partly verbal. As a convention did not exist, it could not be produced, but there was a code of regulations to which the third part of the motion of his noble Friend alluded, and that code
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he had no objection to lay before the House.
Viscount Sandonwithdrew the two first portions of the motion. He begged to observe that last year, his noble Friend had said the whole matter would be settled in a few days. He thought, that as there was no dispute about the Sartorius contract, the claims under it might ere this have been disposed of.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, there had been no delay on the part of the commissioners; but it would have been useless to go into a detailed examination of the claims until the principle upon which they were to be disposed of was settled.
Sir De Lacy Evanssaid, that he had reason to believe the matter was now in a very fair course for a settlement; and he trusted it would be soon brought to a satisfactory conclusion. He wished to observe, that he felt very strongly as to the conduct of the Portuguese government; and he believed it would probably be found, that the whole of the delay of six years was attributable to the want of good faith on the part of that government. He thought it due to the claimants to make that observation. If the noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, should find by and by when the investigation was proceeded with, that these delays, and these cruel and arbitrary proceedings towards the claimants were distinctly to be traced to the Portuguese government, it was to be hoped that he would support, not the right to an ordinary compensation for the delay and vexation they had suffered, but the most ample compensation for every loss and inconvenience they had sustained.
Motion as amended agreed to.

DESTITUTION IN THE HIGHLANDS—EMIGRATION.
Mr. H. Bailliesaid, it was with no ordinary feelings of embarrassment that he rose upon the present occasion to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, for a select committee to inquire into the condition of the population of the western highlands of Scotland, with a view to affording the people relief by means of emigration. He felt deeply the responsibility which must devolve upon any one who came forward as the advocate of a large body of his fellow-countrymen, whose future prospects of happiness or misery might in some measure depend upon the manner in. which their case was

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represented to that House, nor should he have ventured to undertake the task did he not at the same time feel that this was a question of humanity and of justice, and therefore that it needed no artificial advantages or embellishments of any kind to recommend it to the serious attention and consideration of the House. He must, in the first place, state, that he was not one of those enthusiasts in the cause of emigration who thought that the Government ought to bring forward a measure, or establish a system of emigration upon a large and extensive scale for the population of the United Kingdom; on the contrary, he was of opinion, that unless a very urgent, special, and peculiar case could be made out—unless he should be able to make out such a case upon the present occasion, the Government would not be justified in their interference, or that House in giving its support to the motion with which he should conclude. It was hardly necessary to enter into a very lengthened or detailed history of the kelp manufacture upon the western coast of Scotland; it was quite sufficient for the House to know that it once existed—that it was in existence so far back as the end of the seventeenth century, that it was one of those manufactures which had long been fostered and encouraged, perhaps unwisely, by protecting duties—that it was the means of affording occupation and existence to a very large population, which had been encouraged from time to time to settle in those wild and barren districts of the highlands where they had, comparatively speaking, no agricultural resources. The consequence was, that when those protecting duties Mere withdrawn, the manufacture rapidly declined, the people were thrown out of employment, and reduced to the utmost state of misery and destitution. The protecting duties to which he alluded, were the duties upon salt, sulphur, and upon barilla. In consequence of the sudden reduction of the duties upon salt and sulphur, anew manufacture came into operation, composed of those two substances, which was called British alkali, and which proved to be a complete substitute for kelp; this was the first great blow which the manufacture received. It still, however, continued to be employed for some purposes, until the reduction of the duty upon barilla, when it might be said to have been extinguished altogether as a profitable manufacture. True it was, that kelp was still manufactured, but only in. small quantities gene-
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rally for the purpose of employing the most destitute portion of the population, and for the most part at a positive loss to the manufacturer. The consequences which followed the reduction of those duties to the landed proprietors were ruinous in the extreme. True it was, that some of them with vast possessions had been enabled to contend against it, but the smaller proprietors, and those whose estates were burdened with family settlements, were absolutely and completely ruined. He knew the case of one gentleman whose whole estate was not sufficient to pay the settlements which were made upon his younger brothers during the flourishing state of the kelp manufacture; he was in consequence obliged to give up his whole estate to his younger brothers, and he himself was only last year sent out at their joint expense as a sheep farmer to Australia. He might mention other cases of similar hardship. True it was, they had been ruined, but they did not complain; they knew that there were occasions when private interests must yield to the public good. They admitted this, and did not call upon the House for compensation, but they did call upon Government, and he thought with fairness and with justice, to assist in removing the superabundant population from their estates, who, from no fault of their own, but in consequence of the legislation of that House, had been deprived of all means of existence. He knew he might he told by some that the measure which he proposed was too partial and restricted, that distress existed in other parts of the country as well as in Scotland, and more particularly in Ireland. He admitted the fact, but at the same time he submitted that the cases were widely different. In Ireland, for instance, there was a rich and fertile soil, capable of sustaining, even with its present imperfect cultivation, not only the population which now existed, but a much larger population. If then distress existed in Ireland, it proceeded from other causes, and not from any want of capability in the soil of affording food for the inhabitants; it might proceed from political causes, or from want of capital to develop the resources of the country. These were, doubtless, evils, but they were evils which it might be hoped one day to see removed. But these poor Highlanders had no hope or expectation that their condition could ever be improved,—no influx of capital, no ingenuity of man could devise means by which those barren rocks and

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mountains which they inhabited could be made capable of affording food for the population which at present existed, For them there was but the choice of one or two alternatives—either to remain where they were and perish by diseases engendered by unwholesome, improper, and insufficient food, or to remove to some distant country, where by industry they might hope to obtain the means of existence; and, painful as must be the alternative of quitting for ever their native land, they were ready and prepared to adopt this course —nay, even to receive it as a boon, and all they asked was, that Parliament would afford them the means of removing. The famine which it must be well remembered by the House took place in the year 1837 was the natural consequence of the state of things which he had described. Upon that occasion some thousands of these poor people were saved from the most horrible of all deaths (starvation) by the prompt assistance which they received from Government, as well as by the philanthropy and the generosity of the British public. But if the evil had thus been arrested in its course, the disease was not cured, it still existed, and so certainly and so surely as that failures of their crops must, in the nature of things, again take place, so certainly would that famine again return, so surely would Government be called upon to interfere, and the British public be again appealed to. He asked the House whether this was a state of things which ought to exist in a civilized country, and whether the Legislature was not bound to take some steps to remove an evil which it had itself in a great measure been the means of creating? It was not his intention to occupy the time of the House by reading the various communications which he had received upon this subject in corroboration of the statements he had made, because such evidence would come much more appropriately before a committee. One of these communications, however, he would read to the House, because it proceeded from a Gentleman who for thirty years had the management of some of the largest kelp estates in the north of Scotland, one of which alone had at one time yielded a revenue in kelp to the amount of from 18,000 l. to 20,000 l. a year. This Gentleman, Mr. Duncan Shaw, after recapitulating all the measures which were taken by Government to encourage the population to settle in those districts, proceeded to say,
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"So soon as the war was ended, without inquiring into the misery likely to be caused to one part of the empire by so sudden and entire a change of measures, the Government reduced the duties on barilla and sulphur, and entirely removed the duties on salt. By these measures barilla and British alkali came at once into competition with kelp, and soon reduced the prices from 14 l., 15 l., 16 l., and even 20 l. per ton, to less than 3l. The income of one, Long Island, estate was reduced from 12,000 l. to about 3,500 l. Instead of yielding a large, revenue, kelp came now to be manufactured at great loss to the proprietors; the consequence had been, in some instances, their complete ruin; their debts and family settlements remained burdens on their estates, while the incomes of those estates were reduced two-thirds. Nor was the reduction of income the only misfortune; the extra population created by the kelp manufacturers under the protection of Government remained a burden on their hands; not only were they obliged to import provisions for their extra population, but their presence prevented the letting their lands in large grazing farms, and so turning their estates to some account; the small tenants, far from paying rents, cannot maintain themselves, their allotments being necessarily so small. In proof of the state to which the kelp trade is reduced, I may observe that in 1838, 584 tons of kelp were manufactured on an estate under my management at a loss to the proprietor of 620 l. 11 s. 5d., while the same proprietor has for the last five years imported at an average 500 bolls of meal for the use of his tenantry, independent altogether of the very large quantity sent by the committee for managing the funds subscribed for the destitute Highlanders. The next summer. I cannot estimate the probable import on the same estate at less than 800 bolls, and I have no reason to believe that the other estates in Long Island are differently situated to the one I have referred to; no person the least acquainted with the state of the population of those islands can entertain a doubt that provisions to a large extent must be annually imported till a very great portion of the population is removed; the people are unable to support themselves where they are, and equally unable to pay the expense of emigrating. The proprietors, already distressed by the loss of two-thirds of their incomes, are unable to support the people al home, or to assist them in going abroad."
He had already said that the only remedy which could be applied to these evils was the removal of the people from the country, and he should now proceed to state why he considered Canada the best, most appropriate, and fittest place to which they could emigrate. The expense of emigrating to Canada was not above one-third that of emigrating to the more distant colonies of Australia, He was in-

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formed that emigrants might be conveyed from this country to Quebec at the cost of about 3l. a-head, taking them by families; probably Government could do it at a still cheaper rate. According to the best calculations there were at least 40,000 people in a destitute condition who ought to be removed, in order to afford those who remained a fair chance of gaining a subsistence; the removal of this number, at the rate mentioned, would amount to a sum of about 120,000 l, which might, however, be divided over a period of three years, and he might venture to assert that 40,000 l. a year for three years would effect all that could be required. Secondly, although these people were anxious and willing to emigrate to Canada, he doubted whether they could be induced to go to Australia. In Canada they knew that they would find many of their own relations and friends; they knew that they would find whole districts of the country peopled by Highlanders, speaking their own language, maintaining their own manners and customs, and, above all things, they knew that there they would find their own church established by law; thirdly, it appeared to him, that the Government ought not to neglect this favourable opportunity of infusing into Canada a sound, industrious, a British, and, above all, a loyal population. Parliament should not forget that it was to some regiments of Highlanders, raised from the districts of Glengarry, in Upper Canada, that they were lately indebted for the preservation of that noble province as a portion of the British colonial empire, nor should they neglect so favourable an opportunity of still further increasing that loyal portion of the population, who had at all times so nobly come forward to devote their lives and fortunes to support the honour of the British Crown, and to maintain the supremacy of the mother country. The Government had started a serious objection to Canadian emigration, and he wished to state that objection fairly to the House, in order that it might decide whether or not it was applicable to the present case. It had been stated by the Government that emigrants who were sent out to Canada were accustomed to go over in large numbers to the United States, where they generally found a better market for their labour, and this objection would doubtless apply to emigrants collected from various parts of the country, who had no peculiar local ties to bind them to any particular
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district; but it should be remembered that those Highlanders would go out in large bodies from particular districts of the country, that they would carry with them all their local ties and affections, that they would be accompanied by their wives and children, their fathers and mothers; in short, by all those ties of relationship and of clanship, which were known to be so peculiarly binding amongst Highlanders; and he would appeal to any one who was in the least acquainted with the character of that people, whether under these circumstances they would be likely to wander off to the United States, or whether, on the contrary, they would not be prepared to make any sacrifices, in order to be allowed to settle together with those who accompanied them from their native country in those locations which might be appointed by the Government, provided only they could obtain the means of existing. He felt persuaded that any one acquainted with the character of the people would support him in this assertion. He must remind the House that these people had peculiar claims upon their consideration. He must remind them, that in spite of all their misery and all their distress, they had heard of no outrages, they had heard of no violence, they had heard of no Chartism in that country; all that they had heard of was patient endurance, of the worst, the most intolerable of evils to which humanity could be subject; this they had heard of, and this conduct, he maintained, entitled those people to the favourable consideration of the House; but, could he doubt that they would obtain a favourable consideration of their case, could he believe that the people of England, who a few years ago so nobly and so generously sanctioned a vote of 20,000,000 l. of the public money for the purpose of bettering the condition of the negroes in the West Indies—not their physical condition, he admitted, he should rather say their social position could he believe that the Government which only last year obtained a vote for 60,000 l., for the purpose of endeavouring to civilize the inhabitants of the interior of Africa (as he thought a very hopeless undertaking indeed, and, in his opinion, evincing a mistaken philanthropy, a useless, unnecessary, and foolish extravagance on the part of the present Government) could he believe, he repeated, that the people of England, or the Government, would now turn with cold indifference from the sufferings of their own fellow-coun-

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trymen, sufferings far more intolerable, misery far greater, than any that ever was endured by the negroes in the West Indies? Anything so monstrous he could not believe possible. All he asked was for a committee. He wished to prove all that he had stated—he wished to prove (not to the Government, for they know it, but to the people of England), that a portion of their fellow-countrymen had been reduced by the legislation of that House (however necessary, however advantageous, that legislation might have proved to the rest of the community)—that they had been reduced by it to a greater state of misery and degradation than those who had not witnessed it could form the least conception of; and, having proved this, he would then leave it to the wisdom of Parliament to devise such means as might be considered just and proper, in order to remove this stain from the character of the legislation of the country, and, at the same time, to give that protection, and that assistance, and he would add, to do that justice, which the people had a right to expect, and look for, from a paternal Government. The hon. Gentleman then moved, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the condition of the population of the islands and highlands of Scotland, with a view to afford the people relief by means of emigration."
Lord Teignmouthseconded the motion, and thought that the present was a case where a deviation might be made from the course which the present financial state of the country might seem to require. The effect of the proposed measure would be to benefit both the landowners and the poorer classes, for it would render the land more valuable, better the condition of the remaining inhabitants, and add to the wealth of the country. Canada, too, was a more suitable location for these poor people than for the handloom weavers, who were not physically qualified to contend with the climate and the soil. The Highlanders were also better adapted for emigration than the Irish, being more sober and industrious, and they would form a population calculated to prove a strong defence for the frontier in case of necessity.
Lord J. Russell: I should be very sorry to have it supposed that in not making any objection to the appointment of this committee, I was implying assent to the statements and arguments of the hon.
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Member. I am quite ready to admit the great extent of the distress which prevailed some time in the districts alluded to, and I think the House may well give its assent to a committee to inquire into these statements. But I wish to say at once, that my opinion, according to the view I took last year of this subject, is, that the reasons stated by the hon. Member do not make out a special case for the grant of a large sum of money for the purpose of sending out those people as emigrants to Canada; nor do I think, that the hon. Gentleman will be able to make out his case, that their destitution is to be entirely attributed to the reduction of the duties on barilla, since I believe there have been some new inventions, such as a mode of making soda, which have tended to the destruction of the kelp manufacture. But, even if he could, I should doubt whether, in every case where duties have been changed by Act of Parliament, that Parliament be bound to provide for all those parties whose livelihood may be affected by changes in modes of industry, or to take care of all those whom the landlords declare to be a burden upon their lands. I should be sorry to admit that, and I think if any lesson is to be derived from the document of the hon. Member on this head, it is, that we ought to avoid all artificial protection. But supposing all those questions answered in the affirmative, another question then suggests itself, whether the Highlanders alone are to benefit by such a grant; and whether, if we grant 120,000 l. for their relief, we should not have other claimants equally distressed, and whose distress has been produced by the depression of peculiar species of industry, making the same request, and on precisely the same grounds; and I doubt much whether the statement of the hon. Member, that these Highlanders were more especially fitted to promote the civilization of Canada would be altogether a satisfactory and sufficient reason for denying them a relief which we had already granted to the Highlanders. With respect to this country, then, there are strong reasons for pausing in this case, but with respect to Canada itself, there are abundant reasons also. Emigration to Canada, considering it as I do a national object, should be so conducted, in concert with measures to be taken in Canada, that the emigrants on arriving there should at once find the means of support and liveli-

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hood. Now, with respect to many of these persons who are old and infirm, and unable to exert themselves, they would not, on arriving in the Canadas, find themselves in such a condition, and would, therefore, become a burden to the revenues of that colony. There may be emigration so conducted as to avoid this; not the emigration proposed by the hon. Member, but an emigration in concert with the officers of the Crown in Canada, and also in concert with the authority of that Assembly which we are just calling into existence, and whose opinion on matters so deeply concerning them and their finances, ought to be looked at with great respect and consideration by the Government of this country. I wish, without going further into the discussion, to state, that, whilst assenting to the hon. Gentleman's motion, there are many reasons for differing from the conclusions to which he has come, although I would not take the harsh step of objecting to a committee of inquiry.
Sir JR. H. Inglissaid, as the present motion was for a committee to inquire into a certain matter, he would not then enter upon the question involved in it, nor would he have stood up at all were it not for something which had fallen from the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the motion relative to the Niger expedition. He would only beg the House not to be led away by the hon. Gentleman's statements on that subject.
Mr. Warburtonexpressed his regret that the noble Lord had consented to a Committee, as in the first place it was calculated to excite false hopes; and in the next place, if there were to be an inquiry, it would be better conducted by a commission upon the spot.
Sir R. Peelfelt, on the whole, considerable satisfaction at the noble Lord having acquiesced in the motion. Considering the sufferings which had been so ably described by the hon. Gentleman, than whom no person more fit could be selected to represent them, considering the extent of the misery, and the amount of the suffering which had been endured with such exemplary patience and submission, he thought it would be a harsh proceeding to refuse the committee. He did not anticipate the results which the hon. Member for Bridport predicted, nor was he apprehensive that inquiry would render the refusal of the grant more difficult. On the contrary, he thought it would have the effect of
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convincing the parties that emigration on an extensive scale could not be accomplished, and would open their eyes to the real amount of relief which they could possibly receive. Take, for instance, the case of the handloom weavers. He looked to the condition of these poor people with exactly the same feelings with which he viewed the position of the distressed Highlanders, both being impoverished by similar means, for new discoveries and applications of machinery were to the one what the reduction of the duties had been to the other. The first impression of the handloom weavers was this. "Here in England the market is overstocked, and there is an extensive want of employment, whilst we have large and distant colonies which are in equal want of labour, and it will not be just of the Government if it do not take advantage of these circumstances, and expend large sums in enabling us to emigrate." When these people, however, were reasoned with—when they were shown the improvidence and cruelty of sending persons who knew nothing of agriculture out to distant provinces, where the means of subsistence could only be procured from the land, they viewed the matter in another light, and were more ready to acquiesce in the views of the committee than before the inquiry had been made. It might be possible that these people could be sent out for 3l. per head, but if it were shown to the emigrant that the moment he was set on shore he would find himself in a strange land, with no means of providing for his subsistence, beset with wants and difficulties, and in a climate which, during the winter season at least, would be found exceedingly severe—if they could prove to him that the mere transport would be no advantage—if they could prove to him that the competition he must meet with would be such as, if advanced in life, he could not hope to contend against successfully—if they could show him this, they would be much more likely to bring conviction home to his mind of the sufferings which he must expect than would be practicable by any other course. He was very much of opinion that emigration, to be useful to the objects of it, ought to be carried on with very great care. If the state were to vote a sum of money for this purpose, he very much feared that the state would be inflicting a great injury on individuals. He was, therefore, not at all sure that there was much advantage in

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indiscriminate emigration; but he was an advocate for an inquiry, as being more likely to give satisfaction to these poor people than if the House said that which might raise hopes of pecuniary assistance. At any rate, if the state did interfere, they must require the raising of some local subscriptions, in addition to whatever might be publicly voted. With respect to the mode of the inquiry, he thought that the tribunal of a committee of the House of Commons was preferable to a commission; they would be much better able, sitting in London, to ascertain the actual state of emigrants now in Canada than any commissioners in the highlands. But, whatever might be the result of the appointment of this committee, it was impossible for him to sit down without expressing what he felt respecting the unfortunate circumstances of these poor people. He had had some experience of their sufferings and patience, and he must say, he was filled with the highest admiration of the virtues their conduct exhibited.
Mr. Humesaid, that however both sides of the House concurred on many occasions in acknowledging and regretting the distress of particular classes, the House had never thought fit to take the steps that were now required of them. It appeared to him that the report of the commissioners in Upper Canada afforded much better information regarding the state of the few emigrants who remained there, than any that could be obtained by a Committee. If an inquiry were to take place at all, he thought a commission on the spot would be the only means of obtaining a fair and correct statement of the condition of the sufferers. But the hon. Gentleman need not have gone so far to look for distress. At Bolton, during the late distress, it was stated that 7,000 persons were obliged to leave their homes, and 1,480 houses were deserted. These poor people were now wandering and scattered abroad. At Nottingham, and fat Birmingham also, there was great distress, but in none of these cases was the House called upon to interfere in the manner now required. He objected to an inquiry in this particular instance, in preference to others, for this reason, two years ago this distress existed, and an officer was sent down from Deptford Dockyard with bread, beef, and other public stores to distribute. A large subscription was also raised, amounting to 70,000 l. and when the Chancellor of the
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Exchequer was questioned respecting the grant of the public stores, he said it had been done to relieve the urgent distress which prevailed, and to give time to the landlords to assist the indigent peasantry to emigrate. Since then a statement had been made, and never contradicted, that almost the whole of the money which did not go for provisions, was paid to the landlords in the shape of rent. Now, if that was the case, why had those landlords not done anything since, to enable the population to emigrate. It appeared to him that the wording of the resolution pledged the House to give the public money for emigration, and he should take the sense of the House against any such pledge, because such a grant would be in opposition to all the principles upon which they had acted since Sir William Horton's emigration scheme. It was said that Canada was a fit place to receive emigrants; why, gentlemen would find, from the accounts, that five out of every seven who went there were unable to get employment, and were obliged to cross the border. He saw no reason why the House should pledge itself to give money in this case, as it had refused any grant in the case of the hand-loom weavers, and other distressed bodies.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobjected, above all, to raising expectations which it would be impossible to realise, and as the wording of the motion might lead to misconstruction, he advised that "with a view to afford relief," should be erased, and "on the practicability of affording relief," be substituted. The interference of Government in cases of the kind was in general much to be deprecated, but, when it could not be avoided, instead of voting a sum of money, it had been found that the most expedient course was to send down an officer, in whom full confidence could be reposed, and to enable him at his discretion to administer relief. It was true, that frauds by misrepresentation had sometimes been committed, but they were not frequent, and the course to which he had referred had appeared to be the best practical mode of meeting the evil. It was his firm opinion that by far the wisest and safest course was to interfere as little as possible with the exercise of private benevolence. He admitted this was not a mere temporary distress, but had long continued in consequence of an over large population pressing against the

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means of subsistence. He abandoned none of the opinions which he entertained on the subject of emigration at the expense of the State in assenting to the motion for the committee, and he begged to be understood that in doing so, he did not give any pledge on the part of the Government that they would give assistance in the shape of funds, although such might be the recommendation of the committee.
Mr. W. S. O'Brienaltogether denied and repudiated the statements respecting the removal of Canadian emigrants to the United States. Of 25,000 who emigrated last year, if a few went over at least an equal number returned to Canada. Should a committee be granted, and that committee recommend to Parliament a grant of public money for this purpose, he should cheerfully contribute hs vote in support of that proposition. All he regretted was that the principle was not carried farther. It was his intention to bring forward a motion every Session for the promotion of emigration, not to one colony, or from one district alone, but to all our colonies, and from the United Kingdom in general.
Mr. Mark Phillipscordially agreed in this motion, provided the judicious alteration in the wording proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were made. The result of the investigation would be looked to with great interest by another class, to whom, feeling allusion had been made by the right hon. Member for Tamworth—he meant the handloom weavers. He had been frequently solicited by the handloom weavers, to bring forward some motion of this sort in their behalf, and in answer to such solicitation, he desired them to wait until the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry should be published, to see if they would not recommend some such plan of relief. With regard to the expense, he trusted that the House would never let a matter of pounds, shillings and pence stand between them and an attempt to procure some alleviation of such extensive distress. He agreed with the hon. Member for Bridport in thinking that a committee was not the best mode of investigating the subject. But if the committee should find any difficulty on account of the number of the witnesses, or the distance at which they resided, in properly investigating the subject, then he hoped the Government would issue a commission of in any. The committee on the subject of the handloom weavers
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had experienced that difficulty, and the Government had very properly issued a commission. He cordially supported the motion.
Motion, as amended by the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, agreed to.

ELECTION PETITIONS.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that the object of the resolution which he intended to propose was, to obviate a technical objection as to the services of notices in cases of election petitions. Considerable inconvenience was occasioned last year, in consequence of some informality in the service of the notices on the agent in the Ludlow election case. He had consulted the officers of the House on the subject, and they informed him, that the adoption of his resolution would prevent the recurrence of the inconvenience he had alluded to:—"That, on or within ten days after the day on which any election petition, or any petition praying that the petitioner may be admitted as a party to defend any return, or to oppose the prayer of any election petition, shall be presented to the House, the petitioner do lodge in the office for election petitions, the name of the agent or other person upon whom, and the place where, may be served the notices required to be served on the petitioner by the general committee of elections, pursuant to the act passed in the third year of the reign of her present Majesty, intituled, 'An Act to amend the Jurisdiction for the Trial of Election Petitions.'"
Mr. Humethought that it would be better to refer the subject to the standing order committee.
Mr. Greenedid not think, that the matter came within the scope of that committee; if it was thought necessary to refer the resolution at all, it should be laid before the general election committee.
Sir G. Clerkobserved, that it was of importance that the House should agree to the resolution without delay, to prevent their falling into the same situation in which they were placed last year in the case of the Ludlow petition. If they postponed the matter for even a few days, inconvenience might arise, as there was little doubt but that some election petitions would be presented.
Resolution agreed to.

ORDNANCE SURVEY OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND.
Sir Hussey Vivianrose to ask for leave to bring in a bill to enable the Board of Ordnance to complete the remaining portion of the ordnance survey of England and Scotland, on a similar scale to that in which the survey of Ireland was being executed. So long ago as the year 1791 the Board of Ordnance commenced the survey of this country, and the maps which had hitherto been prepared, engraved on a scale of one inch to the mile, and maps of all the counties of England, had been prepared, with the exception of the six northern counties. The Ordnance survey of Ireland was undertaken in 1825, in order to enable the Tithe Act, and the Grand Jury Cess Acts to be carried into effect, and the maps were directed to be prepared on a scale of six inches to the mile. The greatest advantage had resulted from laying down the maps on this extended scale, and it had long been a matter of regret that the maps of England had not been prepared on a similar scale. Indeed, the greatest inconvenience had been experienced in carrying some of the recent acts of the Legislature into effect, in consequence of this not having been done, and he might mention amongst others the Tithe Commutation Act and the Poor-law Amendment Act. Repeated representations had been made on the subject by several of the public departments, and they had called upon the Board of Ordnance to increase the remaining portion of the survey of England to the same scale as that of the Irish survey. He had been particularly pressed on the subject lately, and assured that by doing so a considerable expenditure would be saved. Not that such a survey could supply the place of those minute valuations of property which were necessary to carry some acts, such as the Tithe Commutation Act into effect, but it would facilitate even those surveys. He would not fatigue the House by referring to the various communications which had been read to the Ordnance department on this subject, but would merely read two letters which had been received. The first was from Mr. Dawson, of the Royal Engineers, who was engaged by the tithe commissioners in making surveys; and the other was from Mr. Chad-wick, the secretary of the poor-law commission. The right hon. and gallant officer read the following communications:
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Extract of Report from Lieutenant Dawson, Royal Engineers, to the Tithe Commissioners, dated September 8, 1836.
"In the establishment and improvement of great lines of communication through the country, such a survey is essentially requisite. It affords data for determining the best lines for roads, railroads, and canals, and enables the Legislature to judge of the merits of rival projects.
"Acts of Parliament for railroads have, in many cases, been sought (often fruitlessly) at an almost ruinous expense, where, from the want of an independent survey, the Legislature had little means of judging of their merits, except by the opposing representations of interested parties; a mode which renders the excessive waste of time and money inevitable."
"Dear Sir, February 11, 1841.
"It may be stated, that the surveys taken for the tithe commission have only regarded the titheable property; that the surveys taken for the poors rates have only noticed rateable property, or rateable objects, leaving generally unnoticed and undescribed, all the permanent objects of a national character, and boundaries that should be included in a general survey; that for these particular objects, of which I can speak more particularly as to the surveys for the poors rates, the surveys made have been generally very defective in point of skill, and obtained at a disproportionate expense.
"It is scarcely to be doubted that the machinery of a general survey may be made the means of obtaining the particular objects much better, at no greater, and perhaps at a reduced expense to the parties. The defects of the surveys already obtained, and the undue charges made for them, have been a great source of trouble in this office.
"Having had some occasion to examine the subject of the public information in respect to the size of parishes, I directed a comparison to be made of the statements of the acreage, as given in the census, with the results of the measurements made under the tithe surveys. The enclosed will afford fair specimens of the ordinary results shewing the only information as yet possessed to be valueless, where accuracy is required. I should observe, that the acreage, as given under the tithe survey, does not invariably include the whole of the acreage of the parish.
"From the frequency of applications to see the surveys made for rating, in order that they might be used for other general purposes, I should judge that the want of some settled plan of survey to answer for all public purposes is increasing.
"Yours, &c.
"(Signed) E. CHADWICK."
He had received another very urgent request from the Literary and Philosophical Society of Manchester that the survey of Lancashire might be made on the same

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scale as that of Ireland. Similar communications had also been made to the Board of Ordnance from other philosophical societies. The matter had been maturely considered by the Board of Ordnance, and it had arrived at the conclusion, that it was desirable the counties of England hereafter to be surveyed, as well as the survey of the whole of Scotland, should be made on the extended scale. On this subject he might refer to the opinion of a most distinguished person, who for a considerable time held the office of master-general of the Ordnance, and whose opinion upon that as well as upon all other subjects was entitled to the utmost attention—he meant the Duke of Wellington, who had stated to him, that he thought that the remaining portion of the survey should be made on the enlarged scale. He would beg leave also to quote the substance of the opinion of Colonel Colby, which was to this effect,—
"Although it cannot be expected that any national survey should entirely supersede the necessity of all future local surveys, yet it ought to be sufficient for preliminary proceedings in the case of public works, such as railroads, canals, &c, and to enable the Government and the Legislature to form an opinion of them. The inadequacy of the present maps for these and other purposes of public improvement, is shewn by the numerous applications to this department from engineers and others engaged in such undertakings for copies of the original drawings of the Ordnance survey, and by the costly parochial surveys, which have recently been made for the settlement of tithes."
For his own part, he was convinced, that hundreds of thousands of pounds would have been saved, had the Ordnance survey originally been made on the scale of six inches to the mile. He said this with confidence when he saw the necessity there was or having an extended survey for railroads, canals, and for the carrying out the tithe composition. The matter ought not to be regarded in a military point of view, but was of the greatest practical utility in a commercial as well as in other points of view. It must be obvious, in a small survey of an inch to a mile, a number of objects could not be laid down or described, which it was of considerable consequence to have accurately laid down; out in a scale of six inches this could be done, and additions might easily be made to the map itself as occasion required. He feared that the chief objection against
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his proposition would be on the ground of the expenditure which it would occasion; he felt that it would lead to some expense, and he should be extremely loth to propose an increased expenditure for an object which he did not believe to be of great advantage. He hoped also, that hon. Gentlemen would recollect that this was not an expenditure for any warlike purpose, but was essentially peaceable in its nature, and would be not only beneficial to the present generation, but to future ages, and tend to promote the interests of merchants, manufacturers, and indeed of all classes of the community. He hoped, after this short explanation, there would be no objection to his motion; he should, therefore, propose that leave be given to bring in a bill for executing the Ordnance survey of England and Wales on a scale to be specified.
Mr. Warburtonseconded the motion. He felt the greatest satisfaction at the proposition of his right hon. and gallant Friend, and he felt that any expenditure that would be incurred would amply repay itself in the advantages which would result from having the Ordnance maps on an enlarged scale. He did not believe, that any one in that House would object to the bill on the ground that the adoption of the plan would cost a little money. Another advantage might arise from having the maps engraved on an enlarged scale, in consequence of a discovery which had been made within the last twelvemonth — he alluded to the electrotype. Copies of the plates might be multiplied at any stage of the etching, by means of the electrotype. Thus, after the early outline had been made in the copper, copies might be taken, and these might afterwards be employed for a variety of purposes. For instance, some for railroads or canals, others for tithe commutation, &c, and thus a variety of maps might be obtained for different purposes, and this could not have been the case until the present year. With this scale of six inches to the mile, he felt assured that they might have a great variety of maps for the most useful purposes. He would suggest to his right hon. Friend the propriety of making provision, that when the survey of the north of England and Scotland, was completed, they should go over the rest of England, and prepare maps on this enlarged scale.
Mr. Shawfelt convinced that the greatest benefit would result from having maps

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of the survey of England prepared on the same scale as those of Ireland.
Mr. Humethought that it was probable that the right hon. Gentleman alluded to him, when he stated that some Members might object to his proposition on the ground of the expense that it would lead to. If this was the case, the right hon. Gentleman was completeiy mistaken, for he cordially concurred in the motion, as he was satisfied that it was for a most useful object. He would take that opportunity of thanking the right hon. Gentleman for having adopted a suggestion which he had made, of reducing the price of the Ordnance maps. He felt, that when a survey was made at the public expense, that the public were entitled to the maps at the cheapest rate at which they could be prepared When the electrotype came to be applied in the various ways suggested by his hon Friend, and the plates from which the maps were engraved were multiplied at various stages, he had no doubt but that the present price of the maps could be reduced to one-third of what they then were.
Mr. Greenewished to know when it was likely the survey of Lancashire would be completed.
Sir Hussey Vivianbelieved that the survey of all the northern counties would be completed within four years.
Mr. Mark Philipsfelt called upon to tender his thanks to the Master-General of the Ordnance for the attention which he had paid to the representations from Manchester, Liverpool, and other places on this subject. The adoption of this plan would be attended with the greatest benefit.—Leave given.

THE BANK COMMITTEE.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved the re-appointment of the following committee on banks of issue:—The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Hume, Mr. Labouchere,Mr. Goulburn,Mr. Mark Philips, Mr. O'Connell, Sir James Graham, Mr. Clay, Mr. Gisborne, Sir John Rae Reid, Mr. Oswald, Mr. Charles Wood, Mr. Rickford, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Pattison, Mr. Herries, Mr. Ellice, Mr. Sergeant Jackson, Mr. Hector, Mr. Grote, Sir Thomas Fremantle, Mr. John Abel Smith, Mr. Strutt, Mr. Matthias Attwood, and Mr. Morrison.
Mr. Humeregretted that his right hon. Friend had not stated, what was the ob-
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ject of the committee, and what was the result that he wished to arrive at. He had attended every day that the committee met last year, and he could not tell what they intended to do. He understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not yet prepared to make a statement on the subject, but it was one with respect to which the greatest interest was felt out of doors. He hoped, that the first opportunity would be taken by his right hon. Friend, when the evidence had been extended so far, that he could see his way, of bringing the whole question before the House.
Committee re-appointed.

TITHE COMPOSITIONS (IRELAND).
On the motion of Mr. Pigott, that the Tithe Compositions (Ireland) Bill be read a second time,
Mr. Shawsaid, that he would take that opportunity of shortly alluding to what was considered a ground of strong complaint on the part of the Irish clergy with respect to the tithe. The Irish clergy had been exposed to very unnecessary delay and loss, in consequence of the mode in which the Tithe Act had been carried into effect. When the bill passed in 1838, the clergy had one-fourth of their income taken from them. This he admitted was a question of amount; for he admitted that they gained an advantage in having the payment of tithes transferred from the tenant to the landlord; he, therefore, did not complain on this account. He had, however, all along contended that the 100,000 l. which had been subtracted from the amount guaranteed by the Million Act, had been most unjustly abstracted—he would not say unlawfully, because it had been done by Act of Parliament. Under the Million Act of 1833, the Irish clergy had already received 640,000 l., when in 1836,100,000 l. of the balance was appropriated by Act of Parliament to the uses of the public works in Ireland. He admitted that the balance of 360,000 l., under the Million Act, was not at that time applicable to the payment of the clergy arrears, because that act had been so far carried out; but, in 1838, when the Rent Charge Act passed, the balance of the million was made applicable to that purpose. The amount then appropriated was, however, only 260,000 l. and the clergy consented, for the sake of peace, to accept it on the faith of a decla-

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ration of Lord Melbourne's in the other House, to the effect that the amount which the clergy would altogether receive, under the Million Act, would be 70 per cent, upon their whole claims. They had, however, received only 6s. 10 d. in the pound, or 33 per cent., out of 70 per cent., yet they were exposed to additional taxation, on account of the Poor-laws; and, also, to the enforcement of the Crown claims to quit rents, and the instalments due on glebes and glebe-houses, the Government alleging as a reason for enforcing these claims, that the question of tithes was settled. Under these circumstances, he put it to the Government whether they would not consider the case of the Irish clergy, and remember that the sum of 100,000 l., to which he had referred, had been appropriated to a temporary purpose only during the period when it was not applicable to the purpose for which it was originally voted by the Legislature. The original object of the Million Act had been resumed by the act of 1838, and he thought the Government should consider the claim of the clergy to have the sum of 100,000 l. appropriated to the payment of their arrears.
Mr. Pigottreminded the right hon. Gentleman, that in the act of 1838 the sum of 240.000 l. was specifically stated as the amount of balance to be applied to the payment of the arrears. The matter was considered as closed by that act. This was not the first time the right hon. Gentleman had mooted the question to the House, and he had been answered by the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland. In the absence of that noble Lord, he must decline entering more into detail on the subject. With regard to what the right hon. Gentleman had said as to the proceedings of Government against those in arrear, he would inform the House that the Government had been reluctant to proceed until actually compelled, in order to avoid putting parties to useless expense, and that they had at first proceeded in the inferior courts, where a sum of 11,000 l. had been recovered, which was about to be distributed. At the next sittings of the Court of Chancery in Ireland he was about to proceed against defaulters.
Mr. Shawexplained that he had never meant to put the claim of the Irish clergy to the 100,000 l. as a matter of right, though he certainly thought that they
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were equitably entitled to the full benefit of the Million Act.
Bill read a second time.
Adjourned.