Commons Sitting of 18 February 1839

MINUTES.
Bill. Bead a second time:—Highways.
Petitions presented. By Mr. BLAIR, from seven places in Wigtonshire, in favour of Church Extension in Scotland.—By Mr. GROTE, from Margate, by Sir B. HALL, from Mary-le-bone, by Mr. DENNISTOUN, from Glasgow, by Mr. TURNER, from Truro, by Mr. FINCH, from Birmingham, and Old Swinford, by Sir G. STRICKLAND, from three places, by Mr. BAINES, from Lancaster, by Mr. BROTHERTON, from Salford, by Mr. STANSFIELD, from Huddersfield, by Mr. WLERAHAM, from a place in Cheshire, by General FERGUSON, from Nottingham, and

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by Mr. THORNELY from three places in Staffordshire, for the Immediate and Total Abolition of the Corn-laws.—By Sir THOMAS FREEMANTLE, from Southampton, by Mr. DARBY, from several places, by Mr. BENNETT, from Hindon (Wilts), by Lord GRIMSTONE, from Hatfield, by Mr. H. SMITH, from a Parish in Essex, by Mr. BARING WALL, from Guildford, by Colonel SIBTRORT, from ten places in Lincolnshire, by Sir E. FILMER, from several places, by Mr. EATON, from twenty-two Parishes in Cambridgeshire, by Mr. DICK, from places in Essex, by Mr. BRONDLEY, from several places in Yorkshire, by Sir WILLIAM HEATHCOTE, from places in Hampshire, by Mr. CHRISTOPHER, from thirty-eight Parishes in Lincoln, by Sir W. YOUNG, from Parishes in Bucks, by Mr. ROUND. from St. Mary's, Maldon, by Mr. WARD, from Greenock, and other places, by Mr. WOOD, from Kendal, by Mr. EASTHOPE, from Leicester, and another place, by Mr. BRAMSTON, from several Parishes in Essex, by Mr. BANNERMAN, from Aberdeen, and other places, by Mr. PENDARVES, from Redruth, by Lord WORSLEY, from a Parish in Lincoln, and by Sir E. KNATCHBULL, from several places in Kent, against any Alteration in the Cornlaws.—By Mr. HODGSON, from Berwick-upon-Tweed, against the Registration of Births and Marriages Act—By Sir G. CLERK, from Argyleshire, for some system of National Education.—By Mr. PENDARVES, from Redruth, for a more efficient Constabulary Force.—By Mr. KINNAIRD, from a place in Scotland, for Church Extension there.

THEATRICAL AMUSEMENTS IN LENT.
Mr. Thomas Duncombehad a petition to present, complaining of an arbitrary restriction on the Amusements of the people. The petition was from the proprietors and managers of Drury-lane Theatre, who complained of the unjust interference of the Lord Chamberlain with the amusements of the people on the Wednesdays and Fridays in Lent. The hon. Member went on to say, that while theatrical performances were prohibited in Westminster, it was only necessary to cross Oxford-street, which was not under the jurisdiction of the Lord Chamberlain. [Loud calls of "Order."] He believed he was perfectly in order. It was laid down, he believed, the other day, that when a petition was presented complaining of grievances, the prayer of that petition should be immediately discussed. He apprehended this was a complaint of grievance of that description.
The Speaker: the hon. Member is not exactly correct in the view he has taken.
Mr. Thomas Duncombesaid, the petitioners complained, that they were deprived of a third part of their income by the interference of the Lord Chamberlain. If the complaint were not immediately discussed Lent would be over, and, according to the old saying, while the grass was glowing the horse would starve. It was his intention immediately to move an Address to her Majesty, that she would graciously please to issue her orders to the Lord Chamberlain not to restrict in the City of
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Westminster, those amusements which were permitted in other parts of the country. He would at once bring up the petition and take the sense of the House upon the subject. He would beg leave now to move an Address to her Majesty. [Cries of "No, Order."] He was quite surprised at his hon. Friend, the Member for Nottingham. He was once a great stickler for the rights of the people. He had been present when his hon. Friend was a candidate for Westminster, and had heard him advocating those rights on the hustings.
Sir George Clerksaid, he felt it was out of order for any hon. Member to interfere with a notice of motion before the House; but a motion could not be brought forward without notice.
Mr. P. Thomsonsuggested, that the petition be printed, and that the hon. Member give notice of a motion for tomorrow for that purpose.
Mr. Thomas Duncombesaid, if the noble Lord would only say, that he would take the subject into consideration, so that the rational amusements of the people might not be interrupted, he would consent to withdraw it; but it was too bad, when balls, and concerts, and clubs were permitted to remain open in every part of the town—
The Speakersaid, he was sure he need not remind the hon. Member, that there could be no order in the proceedings of that House if they were to revert to what were the alleged rights of individuals on all occasions, without reference to those which the House had established for the general convenience. It would be impossible to carry on the business of the House if some system was not observed. He might observe, that although it was an order of that House that Orders of the Day should have precedence on certain days, and notices of motions on certain other days, yet unquestionably, according to the strict abstract rights of Members of Parliament, any Member who consulted only his own convenience might make a motion which would entirely defeat all these arrangements. He would put it to the good sense and feeling of the House whether they ought not, for the sake of the people, whose business it was their duty to transact—whether it were not for the general advantage, that the business should be conducted according to fixed and certain rules. With respect to the

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particular motion which the hon. Member brought forward as a fit subject for discussion, he would submit to him whether it would not be more fair to the parties, whose interests were likely to be seriously affected by it, to give them an opportunity of seeing how far it might interfere with their interests. According to all forms, and the common courtesy of that House, such a motion should not be brought on without notice, unless it were meant to set at defiance all those rules which had been laid down for their guidance.
Mr. Thomas Duncombecontended that one of the rules of the House was, that all petitions complaining of personal grievances should be entertained and discussed when presented. That was his case.
The Speakerwould leave it to the hon. Member to take whatever course he thought proper under the circumstances.
Mr. Thomas Duncombe: If the House would allow the case to come on to-morrow, he would have no objection to postpone it; but these people were starving in the meantime. His motion was so rational and so reasonable, that the House could have no difficulty in agreeing to it.
Mr. Leadersaid, it certainly had been his intention to have seconded the motion of the hon. Member for Finsbury. The hon. Member told him, that he intended to present a petition, and had asked him to come down to the House to second it, and as the matter concerned the substance of many, and the amusement of all his constituents, he felt himself bound to do so. He certainly did not intend to oppose what might appear to be the wish of the House, and if there was any rule against it, they ought to abide by that rule. If it could be arranged to take the subject into consideration the first thing to-morrow.—[Loud cries of "No! no.] All they asked for was, that the matter should be fairly discussed before Wednesday, because every day lost was so much pecuniary loss to individuals, and so much amusement lost to all. Unless, therefore, some arrangement was come to, he must second the motion of his hon. Friend.
Sir E. Knatchbullwished to know who were the petitioners.
Mr. Thomas Duncombe: The lessee and performers. If the noble Lord would say, that the subject was one that ought to be considered, then he would only lay the petition on the table; if not, then he
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should insist upon taking Vie sense of the House upon the subject.
The Speakerinquired what was the earliest day the performers would be affected unless the motion was put.
Mr. Thomas Duncomhe: next Wednesday-Wednesday and Friday.
Mr. Gladstonethought, that the petition might be looked upon as referring to a public grievance, and as such an exception to the rule laid down with respect to presenting petitions.
Lord John Russellsaid, that the question entirely depended upon whether it were such a case of personal grievance as that the House would decide upon taking the discussion immediately. As far as he collected the opinion of the Speaker, he seemed at first to doubt whether it were such a case that the House would hear it now, but he thought that the Speaker's impression afterwards was, that as these persons would certainly suffer in their means of subsistence on Wednesday next, therefore, the petition came within the rule of a grievance, and therefore, that the discussion should take place. With the latter sentiment, he was disposed to concur.
The Speakersaid, that the question was, whether the hon. Gentleman should not present the petition now, and take an opportunity of having it discussed in the course of the evening.
Mr. Thomas Duncombewould much rather that the House should dispose of it now in one way or other. He did not see what objection the House could have to the petition. There could be no doubt that the Crown had the power of directing the Lord Chamberlain not to interfere. The hon. Member then moved, that an humble Address be presented to her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give directions to the Lord Chamberlain, to sanction on Wednesdays and Fridays, during Lent, within the City of Westminster, such entertainments as are enjoyed by her Majesty's loyal subjects in every other part of the metropolis.
Mr. Elliottsaid, that the order in question was not a new one. The theatrical performers made their engagements, well knowing of its existence. He, therefore, thought that such a question need not be decided by a division. Why did not the parties who now considered themselves entitled to redress, come before the House with-a petition long since?
Sir Benjamin Hallsaid, his hon. Friend had asked, why did not those parties come forward with their petition long since? Now, it was only last Friday that the Lord Chamberlain's order was issued. The order was in a great degree inefficacious, as the performers might go to Marylebone, or the Crown and Anchor, and act there.
Mr. Creswellcontended, that the application ought not to be entertained, as the performers made their engagement with the full consciousness that the order would be issued as heretofore. They, therefore, had no right to complain now. Other performers, as well as those of Drury-lane, were interested in the present system, and should have their rights considered as well as the applicants. His opinion was, that the House would act irrationally and unadvisedly if it were to entertain this application.
Mr. Jarvissaid, that the Crown and Anchor, the Queen's Theatre, and Astley's, over the water, were out of the jurisdiction of the Lord Chamberlain's order. This was a case in which not only managers, and performers, but also a large number of workmen, domestics, and other individuals, were concerned. If those persons could be thought bound to live for seven days upon what they should have for four, because it was Lent, he admitted, that the application should not be received. There was no necessity for an Act of Parliament to induce the Lord Chamberlain to alter what was merely an old custom, and which certainly ought to be relaxed. If the inhabitants of Westminster and other districts of the metropolis were not allowed to enjoy the innocent amusements of the theatre, he apprehended that they would go to other places, where the amusements would be far from a harmless character. On the ground of sound practical policy, and also upon considerations of humanity they ought to grant the prayer of this application.
The House divided:—Ayes 70; Noes 160: Majority 90.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, Major

Browne, R. D.

Archbold, R.

Bryan, G.

Bewes, T.

Buller, Charles

Blewitt, R. J.

Burrell, Sir C.

Bodkin, J. J.

Butler, hon. Col.

Bridgeman H.

Callaghan, D.

Broad wood, H.

Cantilupe, Viscount

Brotherton, J.

Chalmers, P.

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Clive, E. B.

Parrott, J.

Collins, W.

Pattison, J.

Dennistoun, J.

Pechell, Capt.

D'Israeli, B.

Philips, M.

Dundas, C. W. D.

Power, J.

Easthope, J.

Redington, T. N.

Ellice, E.

Roche, E. B.

Evans, Sir De Lacy

Roche, Sir D.

Fielden, J.

Rundle, J.

Ferguson, Sir R.

Salwey, Colonel

Finch, F.

Sheil, R. L.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Smyth, Sir G. H.

Fitzsimon, N.

Stock, Dr.

Fort, J.

Strickland, Sir G.

Gillon, W. D.

Tancred, H. W.

Grattan, H.

Thornley, T.

Grote, G.

Vigors, N. A.

Hall, Sir B.

Wakley, T.

Hastie, Arch.

Walker, R.

Hodgson, Fred.

Wallace, R.

Jervis, John

White, H.

Maher, J.

Wilbraham, G.

Molesworth, Sir W.

Wilshere, W.

O'Brien, W. S.

Worsley, Lord

O'Callaghan, hon. C.

Yates, J. A.

O'Connell, J.

O'Connell, M. J.

TELLERS.

O'Connell, M.

Duncombe, T.

Ord, W.

Leader, J. T.

List of the NOES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Duckworth, S.

Ashley, Lord

Duncombe, hon. W.

Bailey, J.

Eaton, R. J.

Baillie, Colonel

Ebrington, Viscount

Baines, E.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Baker, E.

Ellice, Capt. A.

Baring, H. B.

Evans, W.

Barneby, J.

Farnham, E. B.

Bell, M.

Feilden, W.

Bethell, R.

Fenton, J.

Blair, J.

Filmer, Sir E.

Blake, W. J.

French, F.

Blakemore, R.

Freshfield, J. W.

Blennerhassett, A.

Gibson, T.

Boldero, H. G.

Gladstone, W. E.

Bradshaw, J.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Bramston, T. W.

Gore, O. J. R.

Broadley, H.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Brocklehurst, J.

Grimsditch, T.

Brownrigg, S.

Grimston, Viscount

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Grimston, hon. E. H.

Burdett, Sir F.

Halford, H.

Burr, H.

Hardinge, rt. hon. Sir H.

Chapman, A.

Hawes, B.

Chetwynd, Major

Hawkins, J. H.

Christopher, R. A.

Hayter, W. G.

Clay, W.

Heathcote, Sir W.

Clerk, Sir G.

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Clive, Viscount

Hinde, J. H.

Crawford, W.

Hobhouse, rt. Hon. Sir J.

Cresswell, C.

Curry, W.

Hodgson, R.

Dalmeney, Lord

Hope, hon. Chas.

Darby, G.

Hope, G. W.

Divett, E.

Hotham, Lord

Donkin, Sir R. S.

Houldsworth, T.

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Houstoun, G.

Plumptre, J. P.

Howard, P. H.

Powell, Col.

Howick, Viscount

Powerscourt, Visc.

Hughes, W. B.

Praed, W. M.

Hurt, F.

Protheroe, E.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Pryme, G.

Irton, S.

Rickford, W.

James, Sir W. C.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Johnstone, H.

Rolleston, L.

Jones, J.

Round, J.

Kemble, H.

Rushbrooke, Col.

Kinnaird, hon. A. F.

Russell, Lord J.

Knatchbull, right hon. Sir E.

Sanford, E. A.

Seymour, Lord

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Sheppard, T.

Lefevre, C. S.

Shirley, E. J.

Lefroy, rt. hon. T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Litton, E.

Sinclair, Sir G.

Lockhart, A. M.

Smith, R. V.

Lowther, J. H.

Somerset, Lord G.

Lushington, rt. hon. S.

Speirs, A.

Lushington, C.

Stanley, E.

Mackenzie, T.

Stanley, W. O.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Macleod, R.

Strutt, E.

Mahon, Viscount

Stuart, V.

Marton, G.

Style, Sir C.

Master, T. W. C.

Tennent, J. E.

Maule, hon. F.

Thomson, rt. hon. C. P.

Melgund, Viscount

Thornhill, G.

Miles, P. W. S.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Turner, E.

Morpeth, Viscount

Vere, Sir C. B.

Murray, rt. hon. J. A.

Waddington, H. S.

Nicholl, J.

White, A.

Noel, W. M.

Whitmore, T. C.

O'Conor, Don

Williams, W. A.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Wilmot, Sir J. E.

Packe, C. W.

Winnington, T. E.

Pakington, J. S.

Winnington, H. J.

Palmer, R.

Wood, G. W.

Parker, M.

Wrightson, W. B.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Young, Sir W.

Perceval, Col.

TELLERS.

Phillpotts, J.

Stanley, E. J.

Pigot, R.

Steuart, R.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND).
Viscount Morpethmoved the Order of the Day, for the House going into Committee of the whole House on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act Amendment Bill.
The House went into Committee.
Upon Clause 8,
Sir Robert Fergussonthought there ought to be some alteration with respect to the latter part of the clause as it was at present framed, and he thought it was likely to create great difficulty. He thought that the Poor-law Commissioners should have the power of appointing the barrister who was to decide upon the validity of the rate.
The clauses were agreed to.—The House resumed.