Commons Sitting of 26 August 1839

MINUTES.
Petitions presented, By Sit R, H, Inglis, from

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the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and from several places, against the Ministerial plan for National Education.—By Mr. D'Israeli, from Merchants, and others of the city of London, for an Inquiry into the Allegations against the Character of the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

NEW WRITS.
Mr. E. J. Stanley, having moved for a new writ for the borough of Cambridge, in the room of the right hon. Thomas Spring Rice, who had accepted the office of steward of the Chiltern Hundreds,
Mr. D'Israelisaid, that before these changes had taken place, there ought to have been an explanation given as to the principles on which the Cabinet was to be conducted for the future, and considering the precarious state of the country and its finances, that the new Chancellor of the Exchequer, if not the old, would have given some information upon the general finances of the nation. As he did not see the right hon. Gentleman in his place, and as it appeared that the Cabinet was to be strengthened by recruits from the official underlings, perhaps some of the hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench would feel quite authorized and duly qualified to give an exposition of the policy on which the new Cabinet was to be conducted. Till that was done, he should feel it his duty to resist the motion.
Mr. E. J. Stanleysaid, that not being a member of the Cabinet, he could not take upon himself to reply to the question of the hon. Member. But he was satisfied, that on reflection he would see the propriety, in justice to the people of Cambridge, of not persisting in his objection to the issuing of the writ which he had moved for.
Motion agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. E. J. Stanley, the clerk of the Crown was directed to issue a new writ for the city of Waterford, in the room of Mr. Wyse, who had accepted the office of one of the commissioners appointed to execute the office of Lord High Treasurer.
Mr. D'Israeli, seeing the right hon. Baronet, the President of the Board of Control, in his place, begged to ask the right hon. Baronet if he could afford the House any explanation of the principles on which the new Cabinet was to be conducted? They were about to meet their constituents, and he knew nothing which could be more interesting or important for
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hon. Members to communicate than the future policy of the Cabinet. There had been three new writs moved for already, and he doubted not that others were still to come, so that the whole Cabinet seemed about to be re-constructed. He, therefore, called upon the right hon. Baronet to give some explanation on the subject.
Sir John Hobhousewas not aware that the Government had any intention to change their policy.
Subject dropped.

CONVEYANCES OF THE MAILS.
Mr. Warburton, in bringing under the consideration of the House the subject of the contract or agreement made by the Admiralty for the conveyance of the mails to the West Indies and America, said, he considered that the Government were entitled to thanks for having made arrangements by which these mails would be carried by steam-ships instead of sailing packets. But he must complain that the Government had made a blind bargain, and that the House and the country had not been consulted, as they ought to have been, on a matter of so much importance as a contract of ten years' endurance, and for so large an amount as 240,000 l. a year, to be paid to a private party. He did not mean to discuss the point, whether the Admiralty had or had not the power to enter into the contract; but his opinion was, that they had not, at all events, acted with that consideration and discretion which the public interests required. The moment that these steam-ships were ready, and a steady intercourse between Europe and America was established for the carrying of the mails, all passengers from Europe would go by them, by which means a complete monopoly of carriage would be created, and all competitors would be thrown out of the trade, to the great advantage of those who were to furnish these steam-ships by agreement with the Government. Had that result entered into the calculations of the Admiralty? No person could tell whether 100,000 l. a-year might not be lost by the contract. It was quite a blind bargain. He had been told, that the parties who had made the Nova Scotia contract had already been offered a profit of 20,000 l. or 30,000 l. for their bargain. The contract ought to have been made by public competition, and Parliament should have had a full opportunity of previous discussion. If that had

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been done, and the plan of free competition had failed, the public must have been satisfied, and no ground of complaint would have remained. But the hon. Secretary of the Admiralty had objected to public competition in this case, because it had failed on other and former occasions. That was no satisfactory reason. Although the principle may not have answered on other occasions, it was quite possible that it would have answered in the present case. The terms and conditions should have been made public, and laid before Parliament, before any agreement so extensive had been gone into. He had been astonished to hear the hon. Member, the Secretary for the Admiralty, when this question was last discussed, deny that the science of steam navigation had of late years improved. In the last thirty years there had been most important improvements made in the steam-engine, so that the work done by it had increased in the proportion of four to one. He trusted that the Government would yet be compelled to give a full explanation, and that early next Session the contracts would be laid before the House, so that Parliament might pronounce a decision as to the expediency of adopting the agreement. All persons engaged in the construction of steam-engines and machinery viewed the contract with great jealousy, and many well-informed persons said, that 100,000 l. a-year might have been saved by public competition. He trusted that the further proceeding with the contract would still be suspended, until the whole matter could be fairly submitted to the consideration of Parliament. He would not say more on the subject at present, and would conclude by a motion for adjournment, so as to afford any hon. Member an opportunity of expressing his opinion on the subject.
Mr. B. Smiththought the great improvement in steam navigation of late years was the great increase in the size of the vessels. When the Victory was built, it was said of her, as a mark of praise, that she sailed like a frigate, because first-rates did not sail so fast as those of smaller dimensions, but the largest class of steamships were the quicker sailers. He objected to the small tonnage of the ships to be furnished to the Government. They were not half the size of the Great Western, and the consequence would be, that letters would be sent by other routes and arrive in much less time.
Mr. C. Woodsaid, the reason why he had delayed rising, was the consciousness that he had already addressed the House on the subject twice, and he now felt that he could do no more than repeat what he had again and again stated before. He knew that where public competition had been resorted to on a former occasion, no such favourable offer had been made as that which the Admiralty had accepted. It should be borne in mind that, in cases where the enterprise was, as in the present case, highly difficult, competition would operate much less than in ordinary cases. He thought, therefore, without assigning too great authority to the Admiralty, their experience might be permitted to set aside the theories of the hon. Gentleman. He had never asserted that no improvement had taken place in steam navigation within the last ten years; but what he had stated was, that no such improvements had taken place within that time, as would authorize the expectation of any great reduction taking place in the expense of navigating steam-vessels within the next ten years. The contractors were also bound, on the requisition of the Government, to give the advantage of every improvement that might take place in steam navigation; and taking all these circumstances into consideration, he did not think it would be worth the while of the contractors to make an outlay of capital for a less period than ten years.
Mr. Haweswould mention a case of very recent improvement, which would produce a very material reduction in the expense of steam-ships. The company that built the Great Western, were now building another vessel of considerably increased size. That new vessel was to be of iron. By that plan the ship would possess a very greatly enlarged power of carrying cargo, in proportion to her tonnage, compared with any steam-ship built of wood, and the increase of freight which the owners would thus receive, would very much diminish the expenses of her navigation.
Captain Bolderosaid, the company who had made the contract with Government, had issued a prospectus, and their shares hung very heavy in the market, a pretty strong proof that the terms were not so advantageous as the hon. Member for Bridport seemed to suppose. He did not think that very large vessels would have answered better than those which the

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company had become bound to build, and, in the event of war, they were to be armed, and to have double complements, while they were liable to heavy penalties in the event of failure in the contract. He thought the Government had made a beneficial arrangement for the public, and that credit was due to them for the manner in which they had conducted the bargain, and also to the spirit and enterprise of the merchants who had taken the contract.
Mr. Warburtonwished to know if the contract made any provision for the rate of charge to be paid by passengers.
Mr. C. Woodsaid it did not.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, in that case the interests of the public had not been duly protected. In granting so great a mono", poly, the Government should have taken care that nothing beyond a certain sum should be charged for the conveyance of passengers.
House adjourned.