Commons Sitting of 23 August 1839

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Sir R. H. Inglis, from the Bishop of Australia, against any new Appropriation of Land for the Support of the Established Church.—By Mr. O'Connell, from Banagher, for Inquiry into the Affairs of a Charity School in that place.

DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH'S PENSION.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the third reading of the Duke of Marl-borough's Pension Bill.
Mr. Wakley, objected to the motion. He believed it was incompetent for the right hon. Gentleman to proceed with the third reading in point of form, as it stood among the dropped notices, and not among the orders of the day.
Sir R. Inglisregretted, that any matter of form should be adduced as an obstacle to the progress of the bill. He should certainly support the motion for the third reading.
Mr. O'Connellhad lately said, that he never knew the Government in the wrong, without receiving the support of the hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford. He was, however, bound to make this case an exception, and had great pleasure in expressing his intention of voting along with the hon. Baronet on the present question. He had examined it judicially, as a member of the committee, and had no doubt whatever, that a more fair and honest claim than that of

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the Duke of Marlborough, to have the tax of one and sixpence removed, never was brought before Parliament. This bill was merely a measure of tardy justice. He had no notion of a statute of limitations being set up by a great nation as a ground for refusing redress to any individual. He must say he regretted that some of his hon. Friends near him should have opposed the bill, because they had nothing but a mere point of law to stand upon, and the advocacy of such objections by them on this question, could only tend to weaken the weight of their exertions on other occasions. He should certainly support the bill, and feel great satisfaction in voting with the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford.
Sir C. Greyentertained grave doubts, whether the Duke of Marlborough was not only entitled to the relief proposed by the bill, but also to the arrears for thirty years.
Mr. Humewould advise his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, not to persevere in his objection on the point of form. He must, however, declare his continued opposition to the bill. The pension had been taxed under an Act of Parliament; and if injustice was done, the party ought to apply for redress to a court of law.
The House divided on the question that the bill be read a third time:—Ayes 49; Noes 5: Majority 44.

List of the Ayes.

Adam, Admiral

Howard, P. H.

Aglionby, H. A.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Baring, F. T.

Irving, J.

Bernal, R.

Loch, J.

Broadley, H.

Lowther, J. H.

Callaghan, D.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Campbell, Sir J.

Macleod, R.

Chetwynd, Major

Morpeth, Lord Vis.

Chichester, J. P. B.

Morris, D.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

O'Connell, D.

Dalmeny, Lord

Palmerston, Vis.

Dick, Q.

Parker, J.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Pechell, Captain

Ellis, J.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Ewart, W.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Freshfield, J. W.

Russell, Lord J.

Gordon, R.

Sanford, E. A.

Greig, D.

Sheil, R. L.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir C.

Smith, R. V.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Harcourt, G. G.

Surrey, Earl of

Hawes, B.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Hill, Lord A. M. C.

Wood, C.

Hobhouse, T. B.

TELLERS.

Hodges, T. L.

Steuart, R.

Hoskins, K.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

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List of the NOES.

Hector, C. J.

Vigors, N. A.

Hindley, C.

TELLERS.

Hume, J.

Wakley, T.

Scholefield, J.

Finch, F.

Bill read a third time and passed.

BANK OF IRELAND.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the Order of the Day for receiving the report on the Bank of Ireland continuance bill.
Mr. Humesaid, as this would be the last opportunity he should have to address the House on the subject of banking, or on the state of public credit, he wished to make some observations as the Session was about to terminate, on the state of our monetary system. He must state that things were in a very unsatisfactory position, both as regarded the general commercial, and financial affairs of the country—he hoped they would improve before they met again; but that it would be an abandonment of his duty, after the many warnings he had given in the course of the three last Sessions, to allow Parliament to separate without placing on record his opinions in their present state. Was it not to be greatly regretted, that England, the richest state in Europe, should, by the mismanagement of its monetary system, be unable to carry on its commercial enterprises, or to maintain the public credit, without having recourse to bills of accommodation in another country? What could more distinctly show the erroneous principles on which we had managed our money matters, than the humiliating fact, that the Bank of England, to prevent the entire drain of its bullion, had been compelled to have recourse to draw bills purely of accommodation on the Bank of France, through the bankers in Paris. Such was the truth, and he found that it would have most injurious effects on the character and credit of this country. He believed, that one principal cause of the present disastrous state of the monied interest in London; and, he might include, of every other disastrous monetary crisis, that had taken place during the last twenty years, is the conduct of the Bank of England. And he particularly mentioned that, now in the midst of our difficulties, because he had more than once attempted, by mo-" lions in this House to bring the subject before Parliament; and, if the enquiry he had sought for, had been granted, he

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would then have exhibited the system in all its deformity, in order that a remedy might have been devised—we should not now have seen the country in its present humiliating situation. He must say, that it is a gross dereliction of its duty, on the part of the Legislature, to allow the Bank of England to increase or diminish the quantity of money according to its will and pleasure, and, thereby affect the value of every man's property in the kingdom—that, if it were proposed, that our measures of length and capacity, instead of being fixed, uniform, and determinate, should vary according to the notions and discretion of certain individuals, or public bodies, or associations, all men would cry out against it, because it would be at once evident, that this would work mischief and produce infinite confusion in the affairs of the community, and render the value of all property sold by weight or by measure, fluctuating and uncertain. If the seller of cloth could at his will and pleasure, shorten the yard measure to thirty, instead of thirty-six inches, or reduce the length of the foot to eleven inches, or the merchant sell by the pound of fourteen instead of sixteen ounces as he pleased—how great would be the uncertainty of the buyers as to what they were to get for their money. But, although it is not perhaps so obvious, at first sight, yet nothing is more sure and infallible, than that an arbitrary and varying standard of money, produces exactly the same effects on the value of every kind of property, as a varying measure of length or capacity—that other causes may disturb the currency was most true, but if the Bank of England did its duty, it would prevent, instead of increase the fluctuations from such causes. That the present state of things must be a great interruption to our foreign trade may be easily discerned—First, there is the uncertainty respecting the position of the Bank of England, and, after the experience of former crisises, prudent men will be very cautious in their transactions with this country, and how they intrust our merchants with goods and money, and for this obvious reason, that if the Bank should stop specie payment, there would probably be a great decline in the prices of goods, as well as in the exchanges which would produce great losses. The next obstacle arises from the excessive, and, at the same time, fluctua-
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ting rate of interest. The foreign merchant who consigns goods to the country for sale, is in the habit of drawing bills against them, and the English merchant charges interest on the advances until the sales of the goods shall be effected—hitherto the charge for interest never exceeded five per cent., often less. But, now, under the altered state of the usury laws, the charge for interest will be very varying and uncertain, according: to the credit of the individuals. All these changes must necessarily interfere with, and impede our foreign trade. The conduct of the Bank of England in the late transactions with the banks in Paris, will greatly, he feared, sink the credit of this country. The interest, or discount on commercial bills in the city of London was at present from six to ten per cent.; whilst, in Paris, the interest was 4 per cent., and at Lyons and other places in France, only 3 per cent. In Holland the interest was only 4 per cent. In Hamburgh, where the currency is metallic, the interest is generally lower than in England; but at present it is 5 to 5½ per cent., owing to large exports of silver to Russia. The panic in the money-market does not exist anywhere else than in England, and the present state of things had a peculiar cause which he (Mr. H.) attributed to the Bank of England. By these changes in price, and uncertainty of discount, every commercial transaction must be subjected to great uncertainty and risk; and England, instead of being the grand entrep6t where produce for the whole world used to be placed, must gradually lose her great commerce, and the best interests of the country be consequently undermined. It would be better, by far, that we should have a pure metallic currency, than thus to have a mixed paper and gold currency, subjected to the ever-varying and great fluctuations which had of late years taken place—and as the Usury-laws allow of variation in interest according to the demand of money, it behoves Parliament to see that measures are adopted to render our currency more steady in value, and that could not be effected until the power now possessed by the Bank be taken away. He objected to the continuation of the monopoly of the Bank of Ireland, as entailing some of the evils of the Bank of England monopoly. It was said, and he admitted, that the Bank of Ireland had acted liberally towards the Government,

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in funding the 50,000 Exchequer Bills at the same price as the Bank of England had done. But the present state of the money market made it difficult for the Government to make a beneficial arrangement of its funds; and the result had been, that the Government had been placed at the mercy of the Bank of Ireland, instead of having: the Bank at their mercy. The whole question of our banking system as well as of our currency, must, by the bill now before the House being only for one year, come before Parliament early next Session, and he hoped by that time that measures would be adopted to present such a state of things as could admit of the Government, in what they considered an important measure, being beat by a small minority in this House. He would tell the new Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom he now saw in his place, that he was about to undertake a task of no easy accomplishment, the reestablishing the credit of the country; and any attempt to regulate the monetary affairs of the country, while they were vested in the select body—the directors of the Bank—who were actuated by private views, and a regard to their own interests, would prove a Herculean task. The repeal of the Usury-laws had placed the commerce of the country, both domestic and foreign, on a footing quite different to what it ever had been. Formerly merchants might calculate, as he had stated, with certainty on the rate of interest to be charged for advances; but now they were subject to a varying and grinding charge of 10 to 15 per cent. The consequence must be a discouragement of all foreign commerce; and if the Government would not attend to this evil, he hoped the intelligent British merchants would see the ill effects of these constant fluctuations, or they would be wanting to their best interests, and act contrary to their usual prudence and circumspection. The Government might long ago have taken the subject up. They should have prevented these capricious alterations of the montary system, which, from time to time, put an end to business. What could be more prejudicial to a healthy trade than these "ups and downs" of business and of prices—now excited, active, and bustling—now dull, unemployed, and languid—producing greater losses to the merchants and manufacturers, and more misery to the in-
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dustrious classes than any man would imagine possible who had not given his careful attention to the subject. He would repeat, that in Hamburgh and other countries where there was a metallic currency, that the fluctuations of interest, of prices, and of trade, were fewer and less, than in this and other countries with a paper and mixed currency. He would not object to the bill now before the House, although he had good reason to complain of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he was not doing justice to Ireland by introducing the bill so late in the Session, and in allowing the monopoly to continue even for one year longer than the Chancellor had given. He thought that the advantages which had been proposed in the bill for five years, to the joint-stock banks within the circle of fifty miles round Dublin, ought to have been conceded in this bill. He saw no good reason why they were not conceded in this bill, they ought not to be allowed to continue one day longer than were by law granted. We were now in great difficulty through the mismanagement of our currency. But he felt convinced, that unless effectual measures were taken with the currency next Session, that evils of a greater magnitude would take place.
Mr. O'Connellwould not oppose the bill, but he trusted the House would allow him to make a few observations. He would not enter into the state of the banks at Paris and Hamburgh, but he must protest against some of the heresies of his hon. Friend, the Member for Kilkenny. He had said that the Usury-laws did not make money cheap. He could not agree to that. He believed the reverse was the fact, and that their repeal had encouraged exportation. With respect to the present measure, it would give an opportunity to her Majesty's Government to consider what course they would pursue in the next Session. He trusted the Government would be prepared with some fixed plan. If they wished to do away with the money making portion of the system of banking, they ought to declare at once that such was their intention. The people of Ireland, before the next Session, would be perfectly informed—indeed they were so already—as to the great risk of continuing the present monopoly. He could remember the melancholy results produced in Ireland by the transition from paper to gold. The narrowing

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the currency was always attended with evils. If the Government were determined to support it, let them declare their opinion at the earliest moment, and he should be prepared to meet them foot to foot. When he saw the success of the Scotch system of banking, he could not for a moment hesitate to believe that it would be found equally advantageous in Ireland. It had been said that the Irish were deficient in that prudence and attention to their interests which would be necessary to insure the success of a system of joint-stock banking; but let them look at New York, and they would find that amongst the most wealthy and industrious of the commercial men there the Irish, in proportion to their numbers, constituted a large majority. The multiplication of these banks, instead of increasing a spurious and unsubstantial circulation, would produce increased vigilance, while the weekly exchanges would counteract the tendency of any bank to over-issue. He believed, wherever the system had been introduced, it had been found to be eminently successful; and he hoped, ere long, to see it extended to every part of Ireland. Let the Government deal fairly and justly with all; let there be a universal limitation, if it was thought necessary, but let them have no partial one. What had the Bank of Ireland ever done that it should be so favoured? The people of Ireland were anxious to know what that corporation had ever done to deserve the high eulogium passed upon them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—of course he spoke of them merely as a corporation. Much had been said of their liberality; but it had been of a forced description, such as that narrated in "Gil Bias." They had displayed a vast deal of generosity; but not until they had the blunderbuss presented at their heads. Any attempt to continue the monopoly of the Bank of Ireland in the next Session would meet with his most determined opposition: and he knew that he should be backed by the sober and industrious and intelligent merchants and manufacturers of Ireland, whose opinion the Government must bow to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not rise to continue the discussion upon the bill, which had so often been gone into but to correct some of those errors into which the hon. Member for Kilkenny had fallen, and more especially with reference
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to the partial repeal of the Usury-laws. No person giving heed to the subject could for a moment attribute our present difficulties to that cause. The effect of the usury laws was to restrict accomodation in money. Practically speaking, the Legislature abandoned the usury laws the moment they adopted the principle of annuities. The hon. Gentleman had stated correctly that the rate of interest was higher in England than it was on the continent. That he admitted, but the mere rate of interest on temporary accommodation must not be taken as the actual rate of interest in the money market of this country. The rate of interest on mortgages had not risen at all in proportion to the rate of interest that was represented by the money advances on bills; on the contrary, there was a facility of obtaining money on good mortgages at as reasonable a rate as before the Bank of England raised its interest. Even the funding of the four millions had been completed (for he had now the honour of announcing it was completed, that operation having taken place at one o'clock this day) at 31. 6s. per cent—that being the amount of interest which the country would have to pay. The hon. Member for Kilkenny attributed the high rate of interest altogether to the Bank. But he had omitted to make any allusion to the corn-laws, which were really at the root of the question. It could not be expected that the country should make payment for five millions of foreign corn, and that that should not create an exchange against this country, and render banking accommodation higher than in other countries. He thought the course pursued by the hon. Member was very unjust. It diverted the attention of the people of England, and of the public from the real cause of our difficulties. If we had a more equal and steady trade in foreign corn, and if the imported corn were paid for, as it ought to be, by the exported manufacturing produce of this country, we should be exempt from those harrassing fluctuations to which the commerce of the country was exposed, and from those severe pressures in the monetary market which had been lately experienced. He would not now go into the general question of banking in this country. It was sufficient for him to say that he adhered to the school of economy, which he had been accustomed to consider as a sound one—a school supported by the practical

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opinions of some of the most intelligent men in any country—such men, as Mr. Loyd, Mr. Norman, Mr. Horsley Palmer, whose scientific knowledge was brought to bear on the subject, supported by the weight of their practical experience. The hon. Member for Kilkenny had talked of accuracy, but he should be careful how he mentioned that; for just to show how correct the hon. Member was sometimes, a recent French author of eminence on finance, had stated that there was an error of 36,000,000 l. in the public accounts of this country. But, on inquiry, he found that the French author's mistake arose from his having taken as his authority a resolution moved in that House by the hon. Member, which, however, was negatived without a division. [Mr. Hume : No such thing.] He had the work. [Mr. Hume: So have I]. To this he could himself bear testimony, that the hon. Member had made an error of 3,000,000 l. in the accounts of one year, thus confounding the net and the gross revenue. Before he sat down he would venture to remind the House of the triumphant success of his funding operation, not that he claimed any merit to the Government for it, beyond their having adopted a right principle—a principle by means of which the transaction had been completed on lower terms than had ever been known before. Now it was completed, he knew it would still be attacked, because it interfered with private profits and individual interests. But although the carrying out of the system had exposed the Government to attack and himself to obloquy, he was content to abide by the result. As regarded the Scotch system of banking, he begged, to observe that the Scotch banks had for a long time been extremely few indeed, and their extended number had taken place so recently, that experience was still wanting to show the results of the system of free competition in that country.
Mr. Humebegged, in explanation, to state, that he never had objected to the Usury-laws' relaxation, or had said that they made money dear; he had been, from his first entry into this House, the steady advocate of the repeal of those laws, and, twenty years ago, had voted with Mr. Serjant Onslow in all his motions for their repeal. What he had said was this, that as the fluctuation of the interest of money, and of the rate of discount, were rendered greater by the repeal of the
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Usury-laws, it was the duty of Parliament to render money, the standard of value, more steady in its value, if possible; which he repeated. He was much surprised at the Chancellor of the Exchequer's allusion to an error of 36,000,000 l. in the public accounts, as if to state to the House, that, as he (Mr. Hume) had formerly made an error to so large an amount, the House ought to receive with caution any statement from him. He (Mr. Hume) stated to the House and the country, that, in his examination of the public accounts for 1793 to 1822, he had discovered that 36,000,000 l., part of 600,000,000 l. borrowed during that time, the account of the Exchequer had omitted to give credit to 36,000,000 l. of that amount; and he had, in his finance resolutions submitted to the House, exposed that error. Monsieur Baillie, the Inspector-general of Finance, the foreign author alluded to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had in his book alluded to that error; and the right hon. Gentleman spoke as if I had made a mistake, which the French author had adopted. The House would be surprised to learn, what the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not know, that Mr. Herries, the Secretary to the Treasury, took the trouble to inquire into the causes of that extraordinary error, and, having discovered the causes, had given him (Mr. Hume) an explanation, which the House would immediately comprehend. Every loan was made payable at the Bank of England, and an allowance of five per cent, made to all subscribers who paid up their instalments of the loan. For example: if a loan of 5,000,000 l. were contracted for, and five per cent, discount allowed, the Bank would only receive 4,750,000 l., and that amount only would be paid into the public Exchequer, and credited in the public account; and it would be easily calculated, that the discount on 600,000,000 l. or 700,000,000 l. of loans would amount to about 30,000,000 l. There was another item causing that error of 36,000,000 l., which the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not seem to know. When Mr. Pitt borrowed 5,000,000 l. for the Emperor of Germany, the money was paid into the Bank of England, and thence remitted to Vienna; the principal sum was never entered in the accounts of the Exchequer, although charge of interest, when we took upon us the debt, was entered by them. Those 5,000,000 l., with he discount

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and other items, had occasioned the error which he (Mr. Hume) had found out. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was, therefore, altogether wrong, and he, and the French author, who had stated the fact on his (Mr. Hume's) authority, were quite right. So much for the attempt of the right hon. Gentleman to impugn his (Mr. Hume's) authority, and draw the attention of the House off his own delinquency, in having brought the finances of the country into their present discreditable state, and in having delayed his measure respecting the Bank of Ireland to so late a period of the Session.
Mr. Villiersrose merely to call the attention of the House to one observation which had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he thought, considering the period of the Session, and the state of the country, it was the most important and remarkable that he had heard in that House. He referred to what he had said on the question raised by the hon. Member for Kilkenny, as to the cause of that disturbance of their monetary affairs which now filled all men's minds with anxiety and alarm; that it was his deliberate conviction, after duly considering the subject, and bringing to it all the experience he had as a public man, and all the information he had acquired of late years at the head of the finances of this country, that the cause of all our danger and difficulty was the present state of the corn-laws. This, he thought, was one of the most important declarations in this House on the subject that had ever been made, and one which he trusted, would invite the serious consideration of all thinking men to the subject; for he would ask if ever greater alarm prevailed in the country than there did at the present moment, at the prospects of the next year—whether men were not watching the atmosphere at every instant of the day, and whether they did not believe that the peace or confusion of the country did not almost hang upon the accidents of a cloud; and why was this, but owing to the dependence to which they had reduced themselves upon the harvest of their own country; for with the present commerce in the necessary article of food with other countries, a scarcity of their own supply of food was nearly fatal to them; and now, that they were on the eve of a second year of deficiency, every man in his senses was terrified at the con-
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sequences. But he wished the House now to mark the predicament in which the country was placed. A Minister of the Crown, at the head of their finances, declares publicly, that this awful state of things is entirely to be ascribed to the Corn-laws. And yet, what man who has reflected on the proceedings of this House during this Session, upon this question, and who considers how the Legislature is constituted believes, for one moment, that there is even a distant chance of the evil being removed? Now, that was what the country ought to consider. There was an enormous evil threatening the peace, happiness, and security of the country, and yet, under their present system, there was no chance of its removal. All that they had in prospect was a Government directly opposed to any change, or one that it cannot stake its existence upon effecting, though deemed essential. to the welfare of the country. How long was that to go on? How long would any man consent to sit in a Cabinet impressed with the fearful evils of these laws, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to be, and not make it a condition of his remaining m that Cabinet that those laws shall be altered? How long shall it be tolerated that Governments succeed each other, each aware of the mischief and iniquity of these laws, and yet none shall be allowed to liberate the people from their oppression? He saw no prospect of this mischief being mitigated, but by a Cabinet identified with the removal of the Corn-laws. This might bring some to their senses, and there might then be a chance of being saved from the confusion which they were now constantly being threatened on their account. He, indeed, now did not see how this could be avoided, after the alarming but very just observations of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, though he was bound to say, that in reply to the hon. Member for Kilkenny, he thought the right hon. Gentleman had a little exceeded the fact, for though, doubtless, the sudden and extensive demand for grain, had occasioned the drain for gold, and which had deranged all the money transactions of the country, yet it was quite just to charge the Bank with an aggravation of the present evils, for not having been warned by that circumstance, and, in conformity with their own rule, not to have in time restricted instead of increased their issues, for the accommoda-

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tion of the mercantile classes. They, however, not actuated by prudence, but proceeding with the heedlessness which usually distinguished monopolists, only discovered their error when too late to avert its mischief, and only saved themselves at the expense, and to the serious injury of the whole community. It was, indeed, terrible to think of the importance of these two subjects, the Corn-laws, and the currency, and to observe how they were dealt with. He did, however, rejoice, that this discussion had taken place, for coming as it did at the close of the Session, and in the present state of the country, it might possibly have the effect of impressing men's minds with the deep importance of those two subjects, and of the necessity of their engrossing the serious attention of Parliament in the next Session.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeragreed with the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, that the present state of affairs could not be attributed to one cause. It must be owing no doubt to a combination of causes. He was merely arguing in that respect against the hon. Member for Kilkenny, who had ascribed the present posture of affairs solely to the management of the Bank. He did not say, that everything connected with the Bank management was all that could be wished, but he maintained that the primary cause was the Corn-laws, and even with a free system of banking and a bad system of Corn-laws, the country would still experience many of the changes and inconveniences which had affected it.
Mr. Warburtonwas gratified that the monopoly of the Bank of Ireland was only continued for another year. He agreed, that a great cause of the irregularities in the currency was owing to its being lodged in improper hands; but did not think, that his hon. Friends who supported the joint-stock banks would transfer it to hands that would stop the evil. So long as the control of the currency was left to merchants having an interest in high or low prices, no proper regulation of the currency could be effected; and if it were given to joint-stock banks, he thought it would rather increase than diminish the evil.
Report brought up and agreed to.
The House went into Committee on the Bank of Ireland Bill. Amendments were introduced, and the bill ordered to be further considered that day three months.

SALE OF SPIRITS (IRELAND).
Viscount Morpeth, in moving the consideration of the Lords' amendments to this bill, stated, that the Lords had struck out a clause which, on the motion of an hon. and learned Member, was added, by way of rider, to the bill on the third reading, enabling grocers to sell spirits. He had given his cordial acquiescence to the insertion of that clause, and would have been happy if it had been allowed to remain as part of the bill. But feeling satisfied that no measures the House could take would secure the re-insertion of the clause, and as he could not pretend that the clause was an integral part of the bill, he did not think he was called on to ask the House to disagree to the amendments the Lords had made.
Mr. O'Connellwas exceedingly sorry to hear the noble Lord assent to that which was called an "amendment," but which certainly was no improvement to the bill. It would inflict a most grievous injury on a very large class of the community. He had seen by the daily papers, that the most sagacious and satisfactory reason given elsewhere for rejecting the clause, was, that it had been introduced by him; and it was added, he had had some political motive in introducing it. Now the clause was supported by the hon. and gallant Member for Armagh (Colonel Verner), and the hon. Member for Belfast (Mr. Tennent), as well as himself; and it was rather hard to say what political motive they could have had in common for joining in the struggle to procure the insertion of the clause. He hoped the noble Lord would hold out some expectation of bringing the subject before Parliament early next Session, with the authority of Government; for it was a great grievance that the grocers of Ireland should be deprived of that which the grocers of England could enjoy, and which the grocers of Scotland did enjoy.
Lords' amendments agreed to.

FISHERIES.
Viscount Palmerstonobtained leave and brought in a bill for the purpose of carrying into effect the convention between her Majesty and the King of the French, relative to fisheries on the coasts of the British Islands and France.
Captain Pechellhaving taken a great interest in this question, it was naturally to him a source of the most lively satisfaction to congratulate the noble Lord on

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the attainment of an object which he for one had never been sanguine enough to expect in its present shape; and it must ever be considered as one of the proudest events of the noble Lord's political career, to have established that influence in the councils of France, which had procured the settlement of a question which, for upwards of 150 years, had been a constant matter of dispute between the two countries. And coupling with this measure the noble Lord's late exertions relative to the suppression of the traffic in slaves, and viewing the successful result of his negociations with Spain, by the clearance from the seas of all slave vessels under the Spanish flag, it was not too much to say, that in obtaining this convention with France, the noble Lord has added another laurel to the wreath which he had won on former occasions. This measure would undoubtedly produce the most amicable and satisfactory results, and would enable the fishermen in the narrow seas, to pursue their lawful avocations without fear or the restraint, to which, for the last ten years, they had so often been subject. It would also prevent the mortifying circumstance of witnessing foreign boats casting their nets, as it were, within the length of a boat hook of the British shores, when our own boats were not permitted to approach those of France within two or three leagues. It would also prevent those unfortunate collisions, which had so constantly taken place, between the fishing vessels of both countries, and which, from the superior size and equipment of the French boats, always terminated to the disadvantage and loss of our own. He would therefore offer to the noble Lord the thanks of the fishermen generally, and more particularly those of the Kent and Sussex coasts, whose complaints had invariably been attended to by the noble Lord. He now trusted that no time would be lost in carrying out a measure which would promote the amicable relations between this country and France.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, this was really an important Convention, which he trusted would be effectual in preventing the recurrence of those differences which had on many occasions threatened to create very serious difficulties. It was founded on principles of perfect equality. Neither country conceded more than it would obtain, and therefore he trusted it would prove entirely satisfactory to both.
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Bill read a first and second time, committed, and the report was then received.

TREATMENT OF CHARTISTS.
Mr. Humecalled the attention of the House to the petition which he had presented yesterday, from Henry Vincent, and others, confined in Monmouth gaol, relative to the treatment which they had experienced since the time of their committal. It was important that the rule with respect to persons committed for political offences should be properly understood. It appeared that these persons, after a trial of ten hours on ten counts, had been convicted on one count, and a question was put to the judge as to the manner in which they should be imprisoned. The learned judge said that no severity would be used, except what was necessary to secure their persons. But it now turned out that they were deprived of the use of fire, of pens, ink, and paper, and of the use of books. There ought to be some understood rules for the regulation of prisons, and he wished to hear what remedy was likely to be applied under the circumstances.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, his own feeling was, that no unnecessary severity would be applied in any such cases, and he believed he expressed the feelings of the Government when he said so. An application had been made by Mr. Stephens for the use of pen, ink, and paper, and he had requested that no unnecessary severity should be used, and that he should not be subject to such privations. He believed, in the present instance, there was not the smallest pretence for saying that anything had been done contrary to the sentence.
Mr. O'Connellprotested against the doctrine, that because a man was imprisoned he was to be subject to particular regulations. Imprisonment meant nothing more than the restraining a man from. going abroad. It did not mean any species of torture. It was torture to keep a literary person from the use of pens, ink, and paper—it was torture to keep him. from books. Whenever a wealthy man was committed to prison every luxury was afforded him. There ought to be some legal definition of what should amount to imprisonment, and it ought not to be left to the caprice or mistake of magistrates to say how much it should be heightened. He hoped the Attorney-general and the

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Government would take the subject into consideration, and do something definite upon it. If no one else did he would endeavour to do so next Session; but in the meantime these persons were suffering this infliction superadded to the imprisonment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he was quite certain the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, would give relief in all cases in which it could properly be called for. He knew that in the case of Vincent, an appeal had been made to the noble Lord to allow the free use of books, and the order had been made, provided the books were not of an objectionable character. In any case properly made out, his noble Friend would doubtless grant all the relief consistent with the due administration of the law, and the effectual enforcement of the sentences awarded by courts of justice.
Mr. Sanfordthought, that these cases ought to be always left to special applications. He certainly admitted that the discipline of a prison should not be solely at the option of any magistrates. Nor was it. For the prisons were under the controul of visiting magistrates, who were entirely guided by the regulations agreed on, firstly by the magistrates in Quarter Sessions, and afterwards sanctioned by the judges of Assize.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, he was glad it would be understood that the Home-office would grant relief in all proper cases. That these prisoners should be without fire in winter was monstrous; indeed, it was enough to kill persons who had been accustomed to comfortable living. Besides, this unjust severity had the effect of exciting the sympathy of the public in the prisoners favour, instead of, as would otherwise be perhaps the case, creating public concurrence in the justice of the sentence.
Mr. Humeexpressed his readiness to leave the case in the hands of the Secretary for the Home Department.
Sir F. Burdettconsidered it quite unconstitutional that men should be subjected to greater inflictions than the sentence of the law specified. It was no justification in such a case, to say that the regulations had been made by magistrates. This injustice, like many others in this country, had arisen out of a departure from the old constitutional practice of leaving the regulation of prison
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discipline to the sheriffs, who were generally gentlemen of distinction, thoroughly responsible, and very exact in conforming to their rules. He thought, that wherever it was found that there had been such a departure from the terms of the judge's sentence, it. should be interfered in, and the injustice prevented, for a monstrous thing it was, that it should depend solely on the circumstance of a man's being sent to this or to that prison, with what severity, or with what mildness he should be treated.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, the Judges were in the habit of inquiring what was the discipline of the prison—and in the case of the Rev. Mr. Stephens, the learned Judge, Mr. Justice Patteson, a most humane and excellent judge, having found that the prison to which he had first sent Mr. Stephens, had regulations too harsh for a gentleman of education, altered his direction, and sent Mr. Stephens to the gaol of Chester, where he would be allowed the use of pens, paper, books, and other conveniences.
Subject dropped.

COLONIAL MAILS
Mr. Hume Mr. Hume moved, that it is inexpedient to make any contract or agreement for the conveyance of the mails to the West Indies and Continent of South America for so long a period as ten years, and involving an expenditure of 2,400,000 l., until full information shall be obtained in that important department, and be laid before this House. In submitting this resolution on a subject to which he had recently adverted—he wished it to be understood, that he did not mean to underrate the importance of facilitating the conveyance of the Colonial Mails—on the contrary, he felt this to be most important. But he believed that the Colonial Post-office arrangements had been grossly neglected, and that the present proceeding was wholly irregular. He had anticipated, that the Government would have sent out a Commission to investigate the subject; and disappointed indeed was he to find, that without any public advertisement, they should have concluded a contract by which the country would be bound, for ten years, and in a gum of 2,400,000 l. The Government should have settled the different lines of communication, and managed so that the larger vessels should not be put on the longest transits. He had no hesitation in

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saying, that from the information he had received, much more might be saved in the contract, and that the line of packets might be almost made to support itself. He knew not what power had been given by the Parliament to any authorities to make a contract for ten years, and the sooner a stop was put to those proceedings the better. He understood that operations would commence about the end of the year 1841, and it was necessary that the opinion of Parliament should be taken on the subject as early as possible.
Mr. C. Wooddid not think he could add a great deal to the explanation he had given on a former occasion, as to the nature of the contract. There were two or three points to which he thought it necessary to advert, and first, as to the power of the Treasury to enter into these contracts. Surely the hon. Gentleman who had himself recommended the Government to enter into these contracts, would not now deny their power to do so, or if he thought they had not that power, he never would have urged them to make contracts for the conveyance of the mails. These contracts necessarily depended upon the annual votes of Parliament, and if the hon. Member referred to what had been the uniform practice, he would find that there were regular votes of Parliament on the subject. So far, therefore, as the power went, there had never been any question, and it had been invariably exercised, subject to the opinion of the House in the annual estimates. It was urged that inquiry should be made as to the regular lines of communication, and the best mode of transmitting the mails. But did the hon. Member suppose that the persons at the head of the Post-office communication in that part of the world and at home, were without any information on the subject—that they were not acquainted with the prevalent winds and currents, and that the naval officers on the West India station, the Post-office, and the Treasury, were not possessed of all the information that could possibly be given on the subject, so as to enable them to decide upon the most eligible plan? It was further urged, that it was a great waste of strength to employ large vessels in communications between the different islands; but if vessels of large tonnage and great power were required at all, it was in these places, in order that the mails from the different islands might
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be in time for the homeward-bound packet to England. There was no ground, therefore, for the hon. Member's objection on that point. One hon. Member had said, that no complaints had been made on this subject. Now the fact was, that the Admiralty had received repeated complaints of the inefficiency of the vessels employed to contend with the Gulf stream. There was also this great advantage, that few persons had had the experience which the Admiralty had as to the conducting of large steam operations. Four out of seven of the steam vessels employed in the West Indies had been sent home during the last year, having completely broken down; thus proving the absolute necessity of employing steam vessels of large power in those seas. He had desired one of the clerks of the Admiralty to furnish him with the complaints which had been received on this subject at the Admiralty, during the course of the last year, and he had been furnished with an immense pile of papers in consequence. It had been stated that no complaints had been received except from persons interested in this contract. Complaints had been received from the British merchants residing in Mexico; from the merchants of Liverpool; from the merchants of Bristol; from the merchants of Barbadoes; from the merchants of Jamaica, and from Mr. Burge, the agent from that island; from the inhabitants of Mountserrat; from British merchants at the Havannah; from the Deputy Postmaster at Jamaica; from the Governor of the Leeward Islands; and from the Governor of Antigua. All these were persons residing in that part of the world, and who were totally unconnected with the parties who had entered into this contract. He had received a representation from the President of the Chamber of Commerce at Glasgow, stating that the merchants of Glasgow were better acquainted with these matters than any other persons, and could give the Admiralty much useful information. He had returned an answer, stating that he should be happy to receive any suggestions from them, but from that hour to this, he had received no communication whatever from those gentlemen, nor had he any reason to suppose that he should. He entirely agreed with his hon. Friend, that the principle of public competition ought to be acted on as far as possible, but however good this was in theory,

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they had found that in every casein which they had put up a contract to public competition they had failed. The principle had always failed in practice. They had put up the contract for carrying the mails to Halifax to public competition, and the lowest offer they had for communication twice a-month, was 45.000 l. They had afterwards, however, made a private contract for a fortnightly communication with Halifax and Nova Scotia, and a branch communication to Quebec and Boston, for 60,000 l. The great advantage of public competition was, in his opinion, the enabling them to judge for what sum the contracts might be performed. The contracts which they had entered into in this instance, were as low as those into which they had entered for conveying the mails to Halifax, the terms of which were twice as good as the best offers that had been made by public competition. He therefore considered, that the terms were advantageous. With regard to the time for which the contract had been entered into, how could the hon. Gentleman suppose that any body of men would make an outlay of from 80,000 l. to 100,000 l. in the building of steam-vessels, unless their agreement was such as to enable them to wear out these vessels, or at least secure them something like an adequate return for their outlay. The Government had stipulated, that if any great improvement took place in the mode of impelling steam-vessels, that then the parties to this contract were bound, upon a suggestion being made to that effect from the Admiralty, to adopt such improvements. He did not think that any Government could have done more in order to ensure the greatest facility.
Mr. Warburtonthought the Government were entitled to the thanks of the country, for the contracts they had entered into upon this subject; but the question was, whether on entering into contracts for so long a period, the public ought not to be satisfied that they were entering into those that were most beneficial to the public.
House counted out.