Commons Sitting of 21 August 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Imprisonment tot Debt (Ireland).—Read a second time:—Exchequer Bills Funding; Bank of Ireland Act Continuance.

BANK OF IRELAND.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the second reading of the Bank of Ireland Act Continuance Bill.
Mr. Finchcould not allow that opportunity to pass Without expressing his regret, that the rate of interest to be paid to the Bank of Ireland, was not the same as that contemplated in the bill that had been withdrawn.
Mr. Ellisthought it rather unreasonable, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be called upon to reduce the rate of interest, when that was contingent upon other ar-

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rangements which had not been carried into effect.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, no one could more regret the unsatisfactory state of that system, and no one could have shown a more anxious wish, or made more arduous exertions to bring matters to a settlement, than himself. But the hon. Member must remember, that the proposition made from the other side of the House, was to arrange the matter of the Exchequer bills this year, and leave the other points for separate consideration. He thought hon. Members must see, that the Bank of Ireland, instead of being open to blame, had, on the contrary, done everything they could to bring about an amicable settlement of the question. When, in consequence of the suggestion to which he had alluded, he had agreed to adopt its principle, he was now again asked to go into the whole of the other points connected with the banking laws in Ireland. He could assure the hon. Gentleman, that no one could be a greater friend, than he was, to a system of free banking, but always apart and separate from the making of money. The point on which he differed with hon. Gentlemen on this subject, was connected entirely with the question of issue, and nothing else. He would take that opportunity of alluding to a statement which had been made yesterday during the debate, by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated, that Mr. Roe, the gentleman who had nominated the hon. and learned Gentleman at his last election, had been excluded from the office of director of the Bank of Ireland, on account of his political opinions, which made a considerable impression on the House. That statement was, however, erroneous. The facts were, that there were in Dublin two brothers, Mr. Roe and Mr. R. Roe, secretary to the Chamber of Commerce, a gentleman of very extensive acquirements, and the best political economist he had ever met. He was the author of various petitions to that House, of great importance, and of one in particular, on the usury laws, which was a model of sound reasoning and correct composition. That gentleman, indeed, stood so high, and was so much esteemed in the city of Dublin, that he had been more than once offered the representation of that city, which he had declined, but he believed all parties admitted, that they would have been honoured by having such a representative. The elder brother was appointed to the direction, and it being contrary to

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the rules of the establishment to have two brothers members of the corporation, the House would at once perceive, that there had been no exclusion of the younger brother, on account of political motives, from being a director of the Bank of Ireland. These were the precise facts of the case, and he trusted they would be satisfactory to the House.
Mr. D. Callaghanbelieved, that the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, who was not present, was perfectly aware that he had been led into error, and would have corrected the mistake last night, had he not been told by an hon. Member, that it was scarcely worth while mentioning it again to the House.
Bill read a second time.

DUKE OF MAKLBOROUGH'S PENSION.
On the Order of the Day being read for bringing up the report on the Duke of Marlborough's Pension Bill,
Mr. Wakleysaid, he hoped some one in the House would divide with him against bringing up the report. He did think that, on principle, a more objectionable measure could not have been submitted to the House. The hon. Member for Kilkenny had already offered a fruitless opposition to the bill. This bill ought to have a different title. It should be entitled "A Bill for increasing the Pension of the Duke of Marlborough by 375 l. a-year." If such a title were adopted, it would be understood by the public; but the public would have great difficulty in comprehending why a Duke was relieved on this occasion, when, if a person of less consequence came before the House for redress, he would find none. But being a Duke, of course he had an ample number of supporters in the House, and got a Gentleman to argue his case with such great ability, that he induced the right hon. Gentleman—he had nearly said the noble Lord—to bring in this bill. The right hon. Gentleman had now a great sympathy with Dukes, because he was about to be associated with them. He had no such sympathy; and he looked at the case with reference to the merits of the question, and not to the situation of the particular individual who claimed redress. He wanted to know if the Duke had performed any public services which entitled him to the consideration of the House? He might have voted as hon. Gentlemen had wished on sundry occasions in the Upper House, but it would be paying dear for his votes to give him and all who came after him,

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375 l. a-year for what he had done in this respect. How did the House deal with the poor under the Poor-law Amendment Act? How did it treat the Chelsea pensioners, who had no person to represent their interest in that House? But a Duke, having considerable family interest, came there and found relief. The House could show its sympathy in that case, but it could show none with reference to the poor of this country. He, therefore, moved that the report be received that day three months.
Mr. Humesaid, before strangers withdrew, he wished to state his entire concurrence in the views of his hon. Friend. He had opposed the bill on a former occasion, and, although he had had a seconder, he had not had the good fortune to have any supporters. Finding the opinion of the House to be entirely against him, he thought it unnecessary to offer any opposition on the present occasion, having already recorded his opinion on the subject; but if any other hon. Member wished to divide, he would not withhold his support from him. It had been argued that the Duke of Marlborough was entitled to the 5,000 l. a year Parliament had originally allotted to him. According to that argument, this bill would not place him in the situation he ought to be in. Parliament thought fit to tax his pension, first 4s. in the pound, and then again 1s. 6d. in the pound; the latter deduction amounted to 375 l., and he considered the present bill in the light of a grant for that amount; for he held that, at the present moment, the Duke of Marlborough was on more entitled to this than if he had never had it; and such was the opinion of the Treasury in the year 1811, who had made a deduction for the two preceding years from the pension, thus carrying the intention of the Parliament into effect. He entirely agreed with his hon. Friend, that if any person in humble circumstances had applied for this relief, he would not have obtained it so easily as the noble Duke had. He agreed with the hon. Baronet, the Member for Oxford, that the whole of the pension ought to have been retained, if any was retained. He objected to it on another ground, that it ought to have been brought in earlier. He could not see why the present Duke of Marlborough should receive more than his father.
Mr. Aglionby, as a member of the committee, felt bound to state, that the hon. Member for Finsbury had completely mistaken the course adopted by that com-
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mittee. In that committee the question, whether the claimant was a peer, or the meanest subject in the realm, was not taken into consideration. The hon. Member was entirely in, error as to the votes of that House, which had never denied the right of the Duke with respect to the 1s. 6d. duty. When he went into the committee, from all that he had heard in that House, he had a bias in his mind against the claims of the noble Duke; but after the arguments that were adduced before that committee, and the further evidence that had been brought forward, his opinion was entirely changed, and he now believed that the Duke had a just and equitable claim to be relieved from the 1s. 6d. duty, but his opinion with respect to the 4s. duty remained the same. He hoped, therefore, the bill would meet with the unanimous concurrence of the House, because the recommendations of the committee had on every point been unanimous. He must say, that it was not fair of the hon. Member for Finsbury to put the question on the ground of the claims of the high station of the Duke of Marlborough, because it had never been brought forward or supported in the committee on such grounds.
Mr. Brothertonsaid, whatever defence was attempted to be made, there was no doubt the bill would be an increase of the pension of the Duke of Marlborough, who had for thirty years acquiesced in the deduction. If any of the relations of sailors or soldiers applied for pensions after such a period, they were told it was too late—the books were closed. Why should not the same principle be applicable to all?
The House divided on the original question.—Ayes 48; Noes 5: Majority 43.

List of the Ayes.

Adam, Admiral

Grimsditch, T.

Aglionby, H. A.

Hawes, B.

Baring, F. T.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Bernal, R.

Hodges, T. L.

Broadley, H.

Hodgson, R.

Callaghan, D.

Hoskins, K.

Campbell, Sir. J.

Howard, P. H.

Chichester, J. P. B.

Loch, J.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Lowther, J. H.

Dalmeny, Lord

Lushington, C.

Divett, E.

Lygon, hon. General

Eliot, Lord

Meynell, Captain

Ellis, J.

Morpeth, Viscount

Ewart, W.

Morris, D.

Freshfield, J. W.

O'Connell, M. J.

Gordon, R.

O'Ferralt, R. M.

Grey, rt, bon. Sir C.

Parker, J.

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Parker, R. T.

Sanford, E. A.

Pechell, Captain

Smith, R. V.

Pigot, D. R.

Stock, Dr.

Price, Sir R.

Townley, R. G.

Pryme, G.

Wood, C.

Redington, T. N.

Rice, right hon. T. S.

TELLERS.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Stanley, E. J.

Rutherfurd, rt. hon. A.

Steuart, R.

List of the NOES.

Brotherton, J.

Vigors, N. A.

Duncombe, T.

TELLERS.

Finch, F.

Wakley, T.

Hector, C. J.

Hume, J.

COUNTY COUNCILS.
Mr. Humemoved the resumption of the adjourned debate on the County Councils Bill.
On the question being again put, that the bill be read a second time,
Mr. Sandfordregretted that his hon. Friend persisted in introducing the bill. The only object he could have in view was, that it should be circulated during the prorogation; but this was done after the last Session, and the public opinion was strongly against the bill. The principle of the bill was nearly the same, and the machinery was of so cumbrous a nature, that it would be attended with the greatest inconvenience. He imagined that it was the wish of the hon. Member to give superintendence to the rate-payers, and in this desire he concurred; but the plan proposed was so burdensome, that it must necessarily fail in attaining its object. If the hon. Member had introduced the measure earlier in the Session, it might have been fully discussed. He could assure the hon. Member, that the feeling of the country was against the measure. It would be necessary to travel great distances, and to go to considerable expense, to exercise the franchise under this measure, and people were getting tired of going these distances to vote.
Mr. Ewartthought, as the hon. Member for Somersetshire approved of the principle of the bill, he ought to vote with the hon. Member for Kilkenny. If the machinery was complex, it could be amended in committee; and the hon. Member, as a country gentleman, was one of the best fitted for the purpose of suggesting these amendments. Seeing that the principle of the measure was admitted, it was unfair to reject the bill on details, particularly as the duties required were such as any country gentleman ought to be ready to execute.
Mr. P. Howardthought the proposition a very reasonable one, At present mea-
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sures affecting counties seemed much longer being understood than in towns.
Sir C. Burrellconsidered it extraordinary that this measure should be introduced by Gentlemen who had objected to the Chancellor of the Exchequer bringing forward the Irish Bank Bill on account of the lateness of the Session. Taking the whole circumstances into consideration, he felt it to be his duty, if his hon. Friend, the Member for Somersetshire, divided on the subject, to vote with him.
Captain Pechellhoped the bill would be printed for the information of the public, as the time had now arrived when they were anxious to have some sort of control over the money that was raised from them. The principle had been recognised in the bill which had been introduced on a former occasion, and there could be no reasonable objection to its introduction. He knew not what machinery the hon. Member contemplated in his plan to give the rate-payers some control over the funds, but the system was one which the House must approve of, more especially at a time when the rates were increasing, and further demands were being constantly made upon the ratepayers. He hoped the House would allow the bill to be brought in.
Mr. Humereplied. The principle of representation and taxation which he contended for, was recognised in every municipal corporation in the kingdom, and the object of the bill was to extend that principle to counties. There were some objections urged on former occasions with regard to the frequent elections of the councils, and the appointment of auditors, which he had remedied in the present bill, and all he wanted was, that time should be given for properly discussing its merits. He hoped the bill would not be opposed; several had been introduced within the last month for the mere purpose of being printed, and why his bill should not be so, he did not know. If it were objected to, of course, he must submit, as in the then state of the House, it would be worse than useless to take a division, but he hoped the bill would be allowed to circulate throughout every country.
Mr. T. Parkerwas in duty bound to oppose the bill. In the county with which he was connected, the accounts were made up yearly, and the county was in general satisfied with them. He must oppose the introduction of the bill.
Mr. Grimsditchsaid, the title of the bill ought to be, a bill to establish county con-

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fusion. He would give every opposition to the bill in his power.
Motion negatived.

AMERICAN MAIL CONTRACTS.
Mr. Humerose to move for a copy of any contract or agreement entered into by the Board of Admiralty, or any other department of her Majesty's Government, respecting the conveyance of the mails to the West Indies and America, stating, whether the same has been agreed to by private contract or public tender; and stating, also, the terms or offers made by merchants of Bristol, or other parties, for the said contract.
Mr. C. Woodsaid, the only reason why he should object to the motion was, that it would be impossible for him to comply with it. He was ready, however, to make an explanation; and as that would probably answer the purpose of the hon. Gentleman, he would do so at once. The first contract in point of time was the one for the conveyance of mails to Halifax. The Government certainly had called for a public tender for the performance of that service. The lowest tender for the performance of that service once a month (and that was a very unsatisfactory tender with regard to the mode of carrying it out) was 45,000 l, a-year, but the Government had entered into an engagement with an individual for the performance of the service once a fortnight at 50,000 l.: so that, at an increase of 5,000 l., they would get twice the service done, including a communication with the St. Lawrence, and a conveyance from Halifax to Boston. In consequence of some further engagement, an additional expense was rendered necessary by the employment of another vessel. They had contracted for the conveyance of mails to Halifax once a fortnight; for the conveyance of mails from New Brunswick to Quebec once a fortnight as long as the river was open; and the conveyance of mails from Halifax to both, for the sum of 6,000 l. a-year; so that, at an increase of 15,000 l., they had more than twice the service done for which the lowest tender was put in in this country, which was 45,000 l. With regard to the conveyance of mails to the West Indies, no contract had been entered into. It was done by private tender. His conviction was, that neither in North America nor the West Indies would it be worth while for any one to undertake the service who had not, from their interest in the colonies, a much further interest in the performance
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of the service than the mere sum paid by the Government. A number of gentlemen deeply interested in the welfare of the West India colonies had come forward, and offered to perform certain services for 240,000 l., and this had been agreed to. He would now detail the services performed. At present there was a communication by sailing-vessels twice a month to the West Indies, and once a month to Mexico. The communication with the West Indies was, therefore, imperfect, and the intercolonial communication was exceedingly bad. With all the foreign islands there was no communication at all. There was no communication between Havannah and the English islands, and the consequence was, that if the Governor of Honduras wished to write to the Governor of Jamaica, the letter must come round by England. If specie was wanted to be sent from Mexico to the West Indies, there was no mode of doing it, except by sending a ship of war for the purpose, nor was there any communication to be depended upon between the West Indies and the United States of America. These deficiencies would now be supplied in the following manner:—Two steamers of 400-horse power each would cross the Atlantic every fortnight to the West Indies; from these, branch steamers of a similar power would go to the different islands; steamers would likewise proceed to the different colonies of Guiana, Demerara, and Berbice, to the Caraccas, to "Panama, to Honduras, to the Havannah, to Vera Cruz, and the south-western parts of the United States. In addition to this, steamers would proceed from the Havannah to New York and Halifax. The number of steamers to be employed would amount to fourteen, and by this means a fortnightly communication would be opened between this country and the whole of the West Indies, the northern part of South America, the southern parts of the United States, Mexico, and the western coast of the South American Continent. This would be carried into effect early in the summer of 1841, which was as soon as the necessary arrangements could be effected. With respect to the terms, the more he looked at them the more he wag satisfied with the arrangements that had been entered into, more particularly when he considered the enormous expense of providing these boats, and of sending out coals from this country. He could assure the House, that no other propositions had been made to the Government by any party. It

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was true, the terms of this arrangement had been made for ten years, as persons expending such a capital could not enter into any contract for a less term; but it had been an article in the contract, that, if during the ten years any great improvements should be made in steam navigation, the Government should have the benefit of them.
Mr. Humewished to ask, if any prospectuses had been issued, setting forth the duties to be performed, and calling for tenders; and also whether the hon. Gentleman was able to state if the parties were now in a condition to carry their agreement into effect, or if it would be necessary even now to form a company for that purpose?
Mr. C. Woodwas understood to say that no prospectuses had been issued. He had no hope of a better tender. Considering, too, that the parties would have to build at least fourteen steam-vessels of four hundred horse-power, it could not be expected that they would be able to commence for some months.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, the subject was of the deepest interest to his constituents; and there were one or two points to which he wished to call the attention of his hon. Friend. He could not claim on behalf of those whom he had the honour to represent, that the consideration of their interests should weigh with the Government or with the House, to induce them to forego the advantages of steam, if steam were (as he believed it was) more expeditious for the transmission of correspondence than sailing vessels. But even on this point he begged it to be recollected, that the packet service, being a branch of our naval establishment, presented a laudable object of ambition to those desirous of entering the navy, and who might otherwise be unemployed; thus was it a nursery for British seamen, and answered ends which would not be effected by a contract system. Supposing, however, that the Government had taken an unalterable resolve, he yet would especially entreat them—they might believe it was with no ill-will he did so—to make the change with the least possible injury to a port which had been for a hundred and fifty years the port of communication across the Atlantic;—with the least possible injury to the—he would not say vested rights—but the valuable interests of those who had laid out large capital in extensive establishments at Falmouth. And what he suggested was, that it should be wade a part of the contract—as to a certain
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extent he trusted he might say it had been —that the establishment must to some degree be fixed at Falmouth. He said this, because he believed it was admitted, that there was no port in the United Kingdom from which vessels could start so advantageously for the stations across the Atlantic as Falmouth, there being no wind with which vessels could not sail thence. Another consideration, in which the public were interested, was this:—The letters that went from Falmouth came partly from London; but that was not the greatest proportion— the greatest proportion came from the north, from Glasgow and Ireland; and unless the letters were taken in at some of the western ports they would be delayed. Unless, therefore, these packets were bound by their contract to take in letters at the extreme ports there would be great delay. What he was now stating was not chimerical, for during the last three or four weeks no less than three packets had been delayed sixty-seven hours, in consequence of not being stationed at Falmouth. He trusted, in conclusion, that the sense of the House would be manifested in favour of his view of the case, in order that his hon. Friend might see the propriety of adopting it, which, it was his belief, would be agreeable to his hon. Friend.
Mr. F. Baringhoped the House would express no opinion with respect to the propriety of placing the packet station at Falmouth, or elsewhere. If he was in the situation of his hon. Friend, standing up in that House as the advocate of his constituents, he should advocate the station being at Portsmouth. The Treasury were determined to fix upon the place for a packet station which was most beneficial to the public service, and not to consider the interests of any parties in particular. He had great gratification in reflecting that, while his noble Friend was at the head of the Treasury, the Government, in conjunction with the Admiralty, had been able to confer the greatest advantages upon the commerce of the country with the world, by the increased facilities it had afforded to trade. During the last few years a weekly communication by steam had been established with Gibraltar—a fortnightly communication with the Baltic—a fortnightly communication with Corfu and the Grecian Islands—a steam communication between England and India—a fortnightly communication between England and North America; and now they had secured, by the last arrangement, a fortnightly steam

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communication between the West Indies, Mexico, and this country, which was of the greatest importance in the present state of their colonial possessions. He could not but believe that these arrangements would be productive of great ultimate benefit to the commerce of the country, and that, whatever expense might be incurred in obtaining them, the benefit would far surpass that expense.
Mr. Freshfieldwas glad the hon. Member for Kilkenny had brought the subject before the House, and he was most anxious to see the contract or quasi contract laid before Parliament. He doubted much whether the strong feeling that was stated to exist on the subject of increased facilities to communication by steam, had ever found its way to a Government office, except through the medium of some great names appearing in a prospectus, and suggesting the wide field of enterprise, and enormous advantages that would accrue to the public from the adoption of their plans. Was it part of the contract that the company was to have a charter—were they to have that which was generally thought in old times to be a clog upon trade? Did that form part of the contract? It must; for the contract could not be carried into effect without it. He was most anxious to see the quasi contract, in order to know whether proper arrangements had been made with respect to the ports of departure. It was not a question of Falmouth, except so far as the interests of that port were connected with the interests of the public: but every presumption was in favour of Falmouth. It was in possession of the trade, and had been for a century; and he challenged a public inquiry into the capabilities of Falmouth as compared with any other port. If there was to be an alteration in the point of departure, it ought to be after a full investigation of the subject, and hearing evidence pro and con. Every information ought to be given on the subject, and it ought not to be made to depend on the activity of any hon. Member in getting official information. He did not know what information the hon. Member for Kilkenny might have on the subject; but in the Falmouth Packet there was a report of a meeting of merchants at Bristol, at which it was resolved that an offer should be made to the Government to convey the mails to and from the West Indies for 100,000 l. less than had been offered by the London company, which was understood to be 240,000 l. It appeared to have created
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great astonishment that so precipitate a step should have been taken by the Government, and the country at large should not have been informed of their intention. He was surprised that a contract should have taken place without the public being placed in a situation to bid against each other. Formerly, the packet service was in private hands, and the Government transferred it to the Admiralty, and he saw no reason why it should not be retained by the Government, who ought certainly to be able to perform the duties as cheaply as any company. If any alteration was to be made in the ports of departure, an opportunity ought to be given for examining into the reason for such changes.
Lord Eliotwas ready to concede, that the public interests ought to be the object which the Government should have in view, but the value of Falmouth had been underrated, and if the establishment there should be destroyed, we might, in the event of war, find ourselves in a situation of great difficulty. He thought the substitution of steam for sailing vessels was a great advantage, and the question was, whether the Government had secured this in the most efficient and economical manner? It appeared that a company of merchants at Bristol were ready to undertake the arrangement on more economical terms; and he also understood that a sum had been offered for the bargain which had been struck with the Government. It was proposed that the packets should take their departure twice a month. That was at the same period as the sailing-packets, and therefore the transmission of letters would not be oftener than at present. But this company was to have a monopoly for ten years at 240,000 l. a-year; so that, whatever improvement might be made, the expense to the country would be exactly the same. There was, also, another consideration. Great inconvenience would accrue to merchants desirous of shipping specie, because it was well known that merchants preferred shipping specie on board a man -of- war, to entrusting to private individuals; therefore the merchants would be entirely in the hands of this company, or would be obliged to wait for the accidental arrival of a man-of-war. The services of a very great number of officers and seamen would be dispensed with, and that was a matter worthy of serious consideration, more especially as to the expense, because all these officers would have to be placed upon half-pay, or be provided for by

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some other method. It was also a matter of the utmost consequence that they should consider whether they would not by this plan be destroying the nursery for the navy. He agreed with the hon. Member for Falmouth in opinion that the Government had by no means established a case.
Mr. Aglionbywas anxious to know, whether the Secretary to the Admiralty intended to grant this return or not?
Mr. C. Wood—Certainly not.
Mr. Aglionbyunderstood as much, and therefore the groundwork of the argumeut of the hon. Member for Kilkenny was cut away. It was said to be impossible to grant these returns. He should like to know in what the impossibility consisted. If any contract was in existence it could be produced, and if no such contract existed, it was easy to state so. If no offers had been made, where was the difficulty of stating so? It had been stated by the hon. Member for Penryn, that an offer had been made to carry the mails for 100,000 l. a-year less than the sum agreed to be given by the Government. Now, this would be a saving of 1,000,000 l. in the ten years, which was worthy of consideration. There had been no public notification either by advertisement or otherwise to the mercantile interest, until the matter accidentally transpired. It did not appear, then, that there had been any efficient public notice, which there ought to have been before the country was committed to a ten years bargain, and to a sum of money much less than which, he believed, even for a shorter period, would have been sufficient.
Lord Eliotsaid, the Falmouth deputation who had waited on the Treasury, not only were previously ignorant of any such contract being in contemplation, but they also left the Treasury equally in the dark.
Mr. C. Woodthought his hon. Friend the Member for Cockermouth could not have listened to what he had stated, which was distinctly, first, that the contract was just as he had represented it to the House, next, that it was not a private, but a public tender, and thirdly, that no other offer had been made. With respect to the question of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Freshfield), all he had to say was, that the Government had reserved to themselves the right of naming the port from which the vessels were to start. With respect to the complaint, that the arrangement had been effected by private contract, he would observe, that in every instance where public tenders had been invited by the Govern-
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ment, they had generally failed, and Government had always succeeded in making much better terms by private contract. As an instance of that, when it was proposed to carry the mail to Rotterdam, public tenders were asked for, and only one was received, and that of such a character that the Government felt bound to decline it. So with respect to Cadiz, Liverpool, Dublin, and Halifax, in all of which cases the Government had made much better terms by private contract. He believed, that the present bargain was an extremely good one for the Government and the public. It remained for the House to say whether, under all the circumstances, the bargain was a fair one or not.
Captain Pechell, said the hon. Gentleman had objected to giving a copy of the contract for the conveyance of the West India mails, on the ground of its being incomplete; but no such objection could apply to the contract with Halifax, because in a Nova Scotia paper he had seen a vole of thanks to the agent, Mr. Cuqard, on the ground of his having made so good a bargain with the English Government. He thought, that great caution should be used with respect to the doing away with the establishment at Falmouth, as it had always been a most excellent nursery for our seamen. He begged to ask, too, how the mail was to be carried from Halifax to Boston. [Mr. C. Wood—By steam.] That was so far satisfactory; but it was very important to know what the means of communication were to be between England and our frontier colony of Bermuda. He trusted these questions would be answered to the satisfaction of the House and the country.
Mr. G. Palmerthought, the Government could not be too open in their dealings with respect to all matters of contract, and deprecated the encouragement of steam-vessels, which he considered destroyed nurseries for seamen.
Admiral Adamsaid, that the steamers would carry almost as many seamen as the packets used to do. But he would ask was it nothing for this country to have an immense force of large steam-vessels, so that, if a war were to break out tomorrow, we could at once arm and man them for the purpose of protecting our commerce, not only in the channel but all over the world? He knew there were at present a great many objections to steam-vessels, but time and experience would overcome them.
Mr. Humewished, before the question was disposed of, to make one or two observations. He admitted, that he had been ignorant of the facts stated by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wood), but he did not think the Admiralty or the Government had the power of binding this country to contracts for ten years. Hitherto there had always been an annual vote for the expenses of the packets. He would venture to say, that never had there been 2,400,000 l. disposed of by one branch of the Government without the knowledge of Parliament. The contract appeared to him to be a most monstrous proposition. He trusted the Government would pause before they placed themselves in a situation from which they could not retire, for he was quite sure Parliament would not sanction a thing of this sort being done privately. If they had power to dispose of this sum, why should they not have the power to dispose of 20,000,000 l.? If they were able to make a contract of this nature for ten years, why not for fifty? In fact, they might bind down the whole expenditure of the country. If there was any objection to the form of the motion, he would alter it in any way which might be pointed out.
Mr. F. Baringsaid, the returns would not answer the purpose of the hon. Member; he had better move for the whole of the correspondence. The Government had been repeatedly urged by parties in that House to perform this service by contract, and the moment they did so their powers were doubted. This struck him as most extraordinary; it was of great importance that this question should be settled, both out of fairness to the Government and to the parties interested. The hon. Gentleman had better give notice of a motion for suspending the contracts at once.
Mr. Humesaid, that would be hardly fair towards him. He had always been friendly to a plan for executing these duties by contract, and as to the question of power, the Attorney-general was the proper person to apply to. He had no wish to move for the correspondence, but he would advise the Government to pause.
Mr. C. Woodsaid, it would be impossible to give the hon. Gentleman more information on the subject than he had already given him. If next Session he chose to move for every scrap of paper connected with the subject, he should have no objection to furnish him with them.
Motion agreed to.