Commons Sitting of 15 August 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Bolton Police; Manchester Police.

DISTRICT CONSTABLES.
The County and District Constables Bill read a third time.
Mr. Hodgson Mr. Hodgson moved an amendment, to the effect that constables should not be disqualified for voting at elections for Members of Parliament.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, that he felt no objection to take whatever course might be most acceptable to the majority of the House; it did appear to him, however, that the object of disqualifying constables from voting in their own districts could not be fully accomplished, unless they were also disqualified from voting in those which were immediately adjoining.
The House divided on the question, that the words proposed to be left out stand.—Ayes 39; Noes 17: Majority 22.

List of the Ayes.

Aglionby, H. A.

Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.

Attwood, T.

Pechell, Captain

Baring, F. T.

Rich, H.

Bryan, G.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Buller, C.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

Divett, E.

Salwey, Colonel

Donkin, Sir R. S.

Scholefield, J.

Duncombe, T.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Grey, right hon. Sir C.

Steuart, R.

Hawes, B.

Stewart, J.

Hector, C. J.

Stock, Dr.

Hill, Lord A. M. C.

Surrey, Earl of

Hobhouse, T. B.

Thornely, T.

Hoskins, K.

Wakley.T.

Hutton, R.

Warburton, H.

Langdale, hon. C.

Williams, W.

Loch, C.

Wilmot, Sir J. E.

Lushington, C.

Yates, J. A.

Lushington, rt. hn. S.

TELLERS.

Mildmay, P. St. J.

Parker, J.

Muskett, G. A.

O'Ferrall, M.

List of the NOES.

Blackburne, I.

Holmes, W.

Broadley, H.

Lowther, J. H.

Darby, G.

Lygon, hon. General

D'Israeli, B.

Polhill, F.

Eliot, Lord

Somerset, Lord G.

Forester, hon. G.

Trench, Sir F.

Freemantle, Sir T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Gisborne, T.

TELLERS.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Hodgson, R.

Grimsditch, T.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

In clause 16, Lord G. Somerset moved the insertion of the following proviso: "Provided always, that nothing herein contained shall invalidate the appointment, or interfere with the payment, of parochial constables."
The House divided, when there appeared—For the proviso 30; Against it 32: Majority 2.

List of the Ayes.

Blackburne, T.

Lowther, J. H.

Bridgeman, H.

Lygon, hon. General

Broadley, H.

O'Connell, D.

Brownrigg, S.

O'Connell, J.

Calcraft, J. H.

Pechell, Captain

Cochrane, Sir T. J.

Polhill, F.

Dick, Q

Pryme, G.

D'Israeli, B.

Scholefield, J.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Somerset, Lord G.

Forester, hon. G.

Townley, R. G.

Grimsditch, T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hodgson, R.

Wakley, T.

Holmes, W.

Williams, W,

Irving, J.

Kemble, H.

TELLERS.

Langdale, hon. C.

Freemantle, Sir T.

Lincoln, Earl of

Darby, G.

356

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Redington, T. N.

Baring, F. T.

Rice, right hon. T. S.

Bryan, G.

Rich, H.

Buller, C.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Currie, R.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

Dalmeney, Lord

Salwey, Colonel

Divett, E.

Somers, J. P.

Donkin, Sir R. S.

Somerville, Sir W.M.

Duncombe, T.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Gisborne, T.

Surrey, Earl of

Grey, rt. hon. Sir C.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Vigors, N. A.

Hume, J.

Warburton, H.

Lushington, C.

Yates, J. A.

Lushington, rt. hn. S.

Mildmay, P. St. John

TELLERS.

Muskett, G. A.

Parker, J.

Parnell, rt. hon. Sir H.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

On the question, that the bill do pass,
Mr. D'Israelihad opposed this bill on its original stages, although he had offered no factious opposition. Now that the measure had arrived at its last stage, he thought he was justified in entering his protest against it, and dividing the House against its passing. Her Majesty's Government, and those who supported this measure, seemed to have taken up the view, that the first and sole duty of a police was to maintain order; but he (Mr. D'Israeli) apprehended, that, in a free country like England, there was a co-ordinate duty for a police, and that was, not merely to maintain order, but to respect liberty. He could not bring himself to believe that the rural police, as it was proposed to constitute the body by this bill, and as it had been brought into operation in some districts already, could fulfil both those duties. He wished to call the attention of the House to a document, which seemed to have been studiously kept out of sight in the course of the discussion on this bill—the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the State of the Constabulary Force of the Country. There were some curious details in the evidence annexed to that report, which he thought it was the duty of the House not to overlook, clearly showing what must be the character of a rural police formed upon the principles of this bill. It was proved, that the practice of the police, in those rural districts where the force had been called into existence, was to enter cottages, and order lights to be extinguished, because, according to one of the witnesses examined, cottagers had no right to have lights to serve as signals

357
to poachers and marauders. It was also proved to be their practice, in other districts, to enter cottages in the daytime, and see if there was mutton boiling in the pot on the fire, because a sheep might have been killed in the neighbourhood. He asked the House, if these practices were sanctioned, what would become of the celebrated national dogma, that every Englishman's house was his castle? It might be said that these were very salutary regulations, and referred only to the labouring classes; but he (Mr. D'Israeli) looked upon their rights as equally sacred with those of the rest of the community. Another part of the evidence was to the effect, that the magistrates of Chelmsford regretted extremely that trampers, as they were called, were not exposed to be arrested for hiring beds in lodging-houses, whereas, if they only slept in the open air, they might be apprehended; but they congratulated themselves that the police, under their direction, had entered houses, and examined beds, to ascertain the character of the occupants. How was this to be reconciled with the sanctity of private dwellings, which had always been considered a very important principle of our social arrangements? He could not support this bill, when he looked to the hurried and unsatisfactory manner in which, at the end of the Session, this and other measures of police had been introduced. Although there might be a variation in the circumstances of the cases to meet which they were brought forward, yet, when he considered the manner in which they had been introduced, he must believe that there was an identity of purpose and a similarity of principle in all. The Birmingham Police Bill, on its introduction, was founded on a popular principle; in a very few days that was changed, and the principle of centralization adopted. The present bill was founded on a report which recommended centralization. When he saw that Government adopted that principle with avidity when they were sure of a majority to carry it, and gave it up only when they could not induce the House to agree with them, it was quite clear to him that the principle on which they were proceeding was that of centralization, and which, he believed, would be fatal to the liberties of the country. Under these circumstance), he should take the sense of the House against the passing of the bill, believing that its principle, however it
358
might be veiled, was hostile to the liberties of the people.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—For the motion 45; Against it 13: Majority 32.

List of the Ayes.

Aglionby, H. A.

Muskett, G. A.

Baring, F. T.

O'Connell, M. J.

Bernal, R.

Price, Sir R.

Blackburne, I.

Pryme, G.

Broadley, H.

Reid, Sir J. R.

Brownrigg, S.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Bryan, C.

Rich, H.

Buller, C.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Calcraft, J. H.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

Cochrane, Sir T. J.

Salwey, Colonel

Currie, R.

Sheil, R. L.

Dalmeny, Lord

Smith, J. A.

Dick, Q.

Smith, B.

Divett, E.

Somerset, Lord G.

Donkin, Sir R. S.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Surrey, Earl of

Ellis, J.

Thornely, T.

Freemantle, Sir T.

Townley, R. G.

Gisborne, T.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Grey, right hon. Sir C.

Vigors, N. A.

Hobbouse, T. B.

Warburton, H.

Lushington, C.

TELLERS.

Lushington, rt. hon. S.

Parker, J.

Mildmay, P. St. J.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

List of the NOES.

Attwood, T.

Pechell, Captain

Bridgman, H.

Polhill, F.

Grimsditch, T.

Scholefield, J.

Hindley, C.

Wakley, T.

Hodgson, R.

Williams, W.

Holmes, W.

TELLERS.

Hume, J.

Duncombe, T.

Langdale, hon. C.

D'Israeli, B.

Bill passed.

BANK OF IRELAND.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the Order of the Day for a Committee on the Bank of Ireland Bill.
On the question, that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. O'Connell Mr. O'Connell moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee that day three months. He declared, that, in the present thin attendance of Members, it was not fitting that a bill of so much importance to Ireland should be proceeded with.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that as the bill was for the public interest, he was determined to persevere with it. This was what he was determined to do; for, until the measure were disposed of on its merits, and by way of fair argument,

359
he should feel he deserted his duty to the country, if he allowed it to be defeated by the mere mechanical means of successive divisions.
Mr. Ellishoped the House would persevere in its opposition, and lay down the principle, that no Minister should ever attempt to take that House by surprise, and inflict serious injury on Ireland.
The House divided on the original motion:—Ayes 36; Noes 17: Majority 29.

List of the Ayes.

Baring, F. T.

Milton, viscount

Bernal, R.

Norreys, Lord

Briscoe, J. I.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Broadley, H.

Pigol, D. R.

Brotherton, J.

Polhill, F.

Brownrigg, S.

Price, Sir R.

Buller, C.

Pryme, G.

Currie, R.

Reid, Sir J. R.

Darby, G.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Dick, Q.

Rich, H.

Divett, E.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Donkin, Sir R. S.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Smith, J. A.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Smith, B.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Somerset, Lord G.

Hawes, B.

Townley, R. G.

Hodgson, R.

Howick, Viscount

TELLERS.

Kemble, H.

Stanley, E. J.

Lincoln, Earl of

Parker, J.

List of the NOES.

Attwood, T.

Redington, T. N.

Bridgeman, H.

Sheil, R. L.

Bryan, G.

Somers, J. P.

Callaghan, D.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Ellis, J.

Vigors, N. A.

Finch, F.

Wakley, T.

Hindley, C.

Wyse, T.

Langdale, hon. C.

TEL

Muskett, G. A.

Hume, J.

O'Connell, M. J.

O'Connell, M. J.

House in Committee.
On Clause 2 being read,
Mr. O'Connell Mr. O'Connell moved, that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again. He should lose no opportunity of dividing the House on the remainder of the bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had taunted him with not making a call of the House on this bill; if he had had the least chance of success, he would have moved for a call of the House, but he had not, and had therefore abandoned that intention. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had the power to prevent his succeeding in that motion through the aid of the Ministerial Members, and now taunted him with not making it. The
360
very object of the privilege of Members to divide the House at any stage of the bill, was precisely to meet a case like the present, and Heaven forbid that he should shrink from the performance of his duty. The right hon. Gentleman had himself told a meeting of fifteen Members, in Downing-street, that notice had been given to the Bank of Ireland that the charter was to be discontinued.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer: I beg to contradict the hon. Gentleman in the most distinct manner I can.
Mr. O'Connell: And I beg to contradict the right hon. Gentleman in the most distinct manner I can. (Cries of "Order!" "Chair!")
Mr. Ellis: I rise to order. ("Chair!" "Order!") I rise most distinctly to deny the right hon. Gentleman's assertion. The right hon. Gentleman has told the hon. Member to adhere to the rules of the House, and now he has broken them himself.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he had been taunted for not having the House full; he should do all he could to have the House full. It was said that by postponing this measure the Bank of Ireland would continue; he admitted it. It was said there would be no inconvenience from this—
Mr. Finch: I rise to order. I think I see a gentleman under the gallery taking notes.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, there was no power of taking notes at all in the House. If the objection of the hon. Member were to taking notes, it would extend to other parties in the House. Unquestionably, persons below the Bar of the House were considered as out of Parliament. If the act of taking notes were objected to, the gentlemen in the gallery taking notes must be objected to.
Mr. Finchsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had not made the distinction between the cases, which must be obvious to every Gentleman in the House. His objection was not to the gentlemen in the gallery taking notes, but to individuals under the gallery taking notes. That course was not the proper one. He saw on the other side the hon. Member for Oxford University, to whose opinion, in questions of this kind, he paid the greatest deference, and to whom he would appeal, and he thought he should have his support.
Sir R. Ingliswas not prepared to give an opinion upon it. The objection, ac-

361
cording to the rules of the Mouse, was not to strangers taking notes, but to strangers being in the gallery, and it was in the power of any hon. Member to say, "I spy a stranger in the gallery," and it was then the old practice for the Chairman to move "that strangers do withdraw." He apprehended that the hon. Member did not intend his motion to go that extent.
Mr. Finchsaid, he believed the proper; course in this matter must rather rest with another Gentleman, who usually sat at the other end of the House (we believe the Serjeant-at-Arms); therefore, having called the attention of the House to it, he had done.
Sir T. Fremantlebelieved the hon. Gentleman was under a mistake. He believed, it was as consistent for the strangers sitting at one end of the House to take notes as for the strangers sitting at the other.
Mr. Baringbelieved the old practice was for strangers to take notes in the old gallery for strangers. He did not know that they had given any particular privilege to any one part of the House.
Mr. Finchhoped it would be understood, that any gentleman who went below the Bar in the strangers' part of the House, might in future be permitted to take notes.
Mr. O'Connellresumed. Never had there been a more gross neglect of duty than the non-service of the notice on the Bank. He had not called for petitions on this subject from the city of Dublin, because he had not time to do so. The country was in a sad state; he believed it was never in a worse state, financial and political, and the right hon. Gentleman seemed disposed to revenge all this upon unfortunate Ireland; like the man who, finding himself embarrassed in the world, went home and beat his wife and children. The hon. and learned Member proceeded to explain the causes which had kept away some Irish Members. Whilst he accounted for their absence, he might taunt the right hon. Gentleman with bringing forward the measure at so late a period. From first to last he had been in fault; he was in fault for keeping the people of Ireland in ignorance for twelve months; he was in fault for not bringing in the measure sooner, and the arguments which he had used damaged his own case. He should move that the Chairman report progress,—House counted out.