Commons Sitting of 24 April 1839

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a second time:—Drainage of Lands.
Petitions presented. By Mr. Plumptre, from the Magistrates of Kent, against the Districts Sessions Bill; from several places, for support to the Established Church in Canada; against forwarding Letters on the Sabbath; and for the Repeal of the Catholic Emancipation Act.—By Messrs. Hume, Leader, Plumptre, Finch, Elliot, Crawley, Salwey, Hawes, Mildmay, Gibson, B. Baring, Warburton, Brotherton, Shaw Lefevre, Cresswell, O'Connell, Easthope, Dennistoun, Sanford, Pringle, Bailey, E. J. Stanley, and Kelly, Colonel Wood, Lord Dalmeny, Sir R. Ferguson, Sir J. Y. Buller, Sergeant Jackson, Sir James Graham, and Colonel Davies, from a very great number of places, for a Uniform Penny Postage.— By Mr. Blakemore, from Wells, for Religious Instruction in the Colonies.—By Sergeant Jackson, from Bandon, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws; from the Medical Practitioners of that place, for Remuneration for attendance on Coroners Inquests; from Drogheda, against the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill.—By Lord Barrington, from Workington, against the Rating of Tenements Bill.—By Lord Hotham, from a place in Herefordshire, against Sunday Trading.—By Colonel Salway, from sixty-five Freeholders of Herefordshire (many of them Landholders), for the total Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. A. White, from Sunderland, against the Beer Act; also in favour of the County Courts Bill.—By an hon. Member, from a place in Ireland, for Justice to that Country.—By Mr. Hurst, from a place in Essex, for an Increased Church Establishment in the Colonies.—By Mr. B. Baring, from Stow, for Amending the Law of Settlement.—By Mr. Stansfield, from Huddersfield, for making that place one for Inland Bonding.—By Lord Ingestrie, from several places, for an Increased Church Establishment in the Colonies; from Radleigh, against the Beer Act; from Bilston, for Protection to the Established Church in Canada.—By Sir R. Ferguson, from Kirkaldy, against any further Grant to the Church of Scotland.—By Mr. Fazakerley, from the Board of Guardians of the Tiverton Union, against the present Law of Settlement.—By Mr. Wigan, from two places, for applying the Surplus Revenues arising from the Union of the Sees of Bangor, and St. Asaph's to purposes within the Diocese.—By Mr. Barnard, from Greenwich, against the Metropolitan Police Bill.—By Sir A. Dalrymple, from Brighton, against the Appointment of Catholic Chaplains to Gaols; and from three places, for support to the Church in Canada.—By Mr. Williams, from Coventry, against the Beer Act Amendment Bill—By Mr. H. Berkeley, from Bristol, against the Rating of Tenements Bill—By Lord Stanley, from Lancaster, against any system of National Education not founded on the principles of the Church of England.—By Mr. U. Johnstone, from Dumfries, and Annan, for further Grants to the Church of Scotland.—By Sir J. Graham, Sir J. Y. Buller, and Mr. Liddell, from several places, for further Endowing the Church in Canada.—By Mr. J. Hope, from Fife, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. Cresswell, from Liverpool, against extending the measure of County Courts to that City; also against the Rating of Small Tenements Bill; and from Wigan, against any system of Education not superintended by the Clergy.—By Mr. Maxwell, from Guildford, and other places, for Inquiry into the Affairs of Maynooth College.—By Captain Alsager, from two places, to the same effect.—By Mr. W. Campbell, from the county of Argyll, for Relief from the Religious Destitution of the Highlands.—By Lord C. Manners, from Melton Mowbray. against any further Grant to Maynooth College; from Tramlingham, against the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues Bill—By Mr. Hume, from Kilkenny, for Railways in Ireland; from Scone, and other places, against further Endowing the Scotch Church; from Great Torrington, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws; from several parts of Ireland, for Equal Rights, and Equal Justice.—By Colonel Wood,

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from Tottenham, against the Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill.—By Mr. Grattan, from Fermanagh, in favour of the Ministerial Policy in Ireland.— By Mr. F. Dundas, from Orkney, in favour of further Endowing the Church of Scotland.—By Mr. W. Patten, from Lancashire, against any system of Education not in accordance with the Principles of the Established Church.—By Sir Edward Knatchbull, from the Magistrates of Kent, against the Beer Act.—By Colonel Scale, from Dartmouth, In favour of the Removal of the Local Legislature in Jamaica.—By Colonel Wood, from Brecon, against the Bastardy Clauses in the New Poor-law Act—By Lord Dalmeny, from Stirling, in favour of the Scotch Prisons Bill; from Dumfries, against any further Grant to the Church of Scotland.—By Mr. O'Connell, from numerous places, in favour of the Ministerial Policy in Ireland.— By Mr. W. Duncombe, from one place, and by Mr. Pakington, from several places, for Church Extension in the Colonies; by the latter, from Worcester, against the District Sessions Bill; and from another place, against the County Courts Bill.—By Sir G. Strickland, from one place, against the Bastardy Clauses in the New Poor-law Act—By Mr. F. Kelly, from Ipswich, against any system of National Education not founded on the Principles of the Established Church; also against parts of the Imprisonment for Debt Act.—By the O'Connor Don, from Roscommon, in favour of the Ministerial Policy in Ireland.—By Sir G. E. Vivian, from Truro, against the Continuance of Idolatrous Worship in India.

HIGHWAYS.
Mr. Barnebymoved, the order of the day for the further consideration of the report on the Highways Bill.
Colonel Wooddid not think, that they were improving the law with respect to turnpike roads by their legislation. He thought, that the roads were better under the old system than even under the bill of 1835, the great fault of which was the abolition of the statute labour. He did not like the present Bill—it would inflict a new Board upon the country—it would necessarily require new officers, and lead to great expense. If the parishes were compelled to have a paid surveyor, a great many difficulties that at present existed in the case of parish boards would be avoided; but he strongly objected to the new board proposed by the bill. He moved as an Amendment, "That the bill be re-committed this day six months."
Mr. Barnebysupported the bill.
The House divided on the original motion:—Ayes 84; Noes 60:—Majority 24.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Courtenay, P.

Aglionby, H. A.

Cripps, J.

Ainsworth, P.

Darby, G

Bailey, J., jun.

Davies, Colonel

Barrington Viscount

Duff, J.

Bell, M.

Dundas, Sir B.

Bewes, T.

Eastnor, Viscount

Bowes, T.

Edwards, J.

Bramston, T. W.

Egerton, W. T.

Brownrigg, J. S.

Eliot, Lord

Christopher, R. A.

Evans, W.

Clive, Visct.

Fazakerly, J. N.

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Fremantle, Sir T.

Palmer, C. F.

French, F.

Palmer, R.

Freshfield, J. W.

Patten, J. W.

Gibson, Thomas

Pease, J.

Gordon, R.

Peel, Sir R.

Graham, Sir J.

Philips, M.

Hinde, J. H.

Pigot, D. R.

Hodgson, F.

Plumptre, J. P.

Howard, P. H.

Pryme, G.

Hutton, R.

Pusey, P.

Johnstone, H.

Rice, E.

Kinnaird, hon. A.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Knight, H. G.

Round, C. G.

Lambton, H.

Russell, Lord C.

Langdale, hon. C.

Sanford, E. A.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Sinclair, Sir G.

Lefroy, rt. hon. T.

Somerset, Lord G.

Lemon, Sir C.

Somerville, Sir W.

Lennox, Lord A.

Stanley, E. J.

Lockhart, A. M.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Lynch, A. H.

Stewart, J.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Strutt, E.

M'Namara, W.

Wall, B.

Marshall, W.

Williams, R.

Marsland, H.

Wilshere, W.

Mildmay, P. St. J.

Winnington, T. E.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Winnington, H. J.

Morris, D.

Worsley, Lord

Murray, A.

O'Brien, C.

TELLERS.

Ord, W.

Barneby, J.

Pakington, J. S.

Slaney, R. A.

List of the NOES.

Barnard, E. G.

Irton, S.

Bethell, R.

Kemble, H.

Blackburne, J. I.

Knatchbull, Sir E.

Blackstone, W. S.

Liddell, H. T.

Brotherton, J.

Lister, E. C.

Bryan, G.

Lygon, Colonel

Buck, L. W.

Master, Colonel

Bulwer, Sir E. L.

Maunsell, T. P.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Parker, R. T.

Butler, hon. P.

Parrott, J.

Calcraft, J. H.

Pechell, Captain

Chute, W. L. W.

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Clive, E. B.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Donkin, Sir R.

Salwey, Colonel

Duncombe, T. S.

Sheppard, T.

Duncombe, W.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Dundas, C. W. D.

Smith, A.

Du Pre, G.

Smyth, Sir G. M.

Evans, G.

Stanley, E.

Farnham, E. B.

Style, Sir T. C.

Fielden, J.

Thornley, T.

Goring, H. D.

Turner, William,

Greene, T. G.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Grimsditch, T.

Vigors, N. A.

Grimston, Visct.

Wilbraham, R. B.

Halford, H.

Williams, W.

Harland, W. C.

Wodehouse, E.

Hawes, B.

Young, J.

Heathcoat, J.

Hector, C. J.

TELLERS.

Heneage, G. W.

Wood, T.

Hume, J.

Strickland, Sir G.

House in Committee.
Mr. Darbyopposed it, on the ground, that it would occasion the withdrawal of several persons from the management of roads and proposed as an Amendment, that the Justices should give notice at Petty Sessions to the Overseers and Churchwardens of the different parishes, of their intention to divide the parishes into districts, and that at a Special Sessions, to be held in consequence, the districts shall be formed, and notice thereof given to the different parishes; and that the parishes in vestry assembled, shall return the names of persons for District Surveyor to the Justices, who shall appoint one from the list thus given, and shall fix his salary. He would not, however, press his amendment.
Sir G. Stricklandproposed to throw out that part of the clause enacting the appointment of a District Surveyor and District Boards, and to substitute nothing in its place.
Mr. Sanfordsupported the appointment of District Boards.
Mr. Benettagreed with the view taken by the hon. Baronet the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, and thought the present law sufficient to ensure good highways if it were properly enforced.
Mr. Barnebycomplained of Members proposing new clauses without having them previously printed, and supported the original clause.
Mr. S. Lefevrewas in favour of the plan of the hon. Member for Sussex.
Sir George Stricklandwished to draw the attention of the House only to the first portion of the clause, which, and not the entire clause, was under discussion. Let them divide upon that, leaving out the passage down to the word "Board." He moved the omission of this part of the clause.
The Committee divided on the amendment:—Ayes 91; Noes 18:—Majority 73.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Rice, E. R.

Bowes, J.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Brotherton, J.

Stewart, J.

Davies. Colonel,

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Handley, H.

Vigors, N. A.

James, W.

Wakley, T.

Langdale, hon. C.

Warburton, H.

Marsland, H.

Mildmay, P. St. J.

TELLERS.

Pakington, J. S.

Barneby, J.

Pease, J.

Worsley, Lord

502

Acland, Sir T. D.

Howard, P. H.

Alston, R.

Irton, S.

Barrington, Viscount

Kemble, H.

Bell, M.

Kinatchbull, right hon.

Benett, J.

Sir E.

Bethell, R,

Knight, H. G.

Blackburne, I.

Lincoln, Earl of

Blackstone, W. S.

Lister, E. C.

Bodkin, J. J.

Lockhart, A. M.

Boldero, H. G.

Maunsell, T. P.

Bramston, T. W.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Bridgeman, H.

Muskett, G. A.

Brownrigge, S.

Neeld, J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Norreys, Lord

Buck, L. W.

Palmer, R.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Parker R. T.

Burrell, Sir C.

Parrott, J.

Burroughes, H. N.

Patten, J. W.

Calcraft, J. H

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Cavendish, hon. C.

Philips, M.

Cavendish, hn. G. H.

Plumptre, J. P.

Christopher, R. A.

Pusey, P.

Chute, W. L. W.

Round, C. G.

Clive, E. B.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Compton, H. C.

Russell, Lord

Cresswell, C.

Bussell, Lord C.

Cripps, J.

Sanford, E. A.

Darby, G.

Scrope, G. P.

Darlington, Earl of

Sheppard, T.

Duncombe, T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Dundas, Sir R.

Somerset, Lord G.

Du Pre, G.

Stanley, E.

Eastnor, Lord Visc.

Thompson, Mr. Ald.

Egerton, W. T.

Thornley, T.

Eliot, Lord,

Turner, E.

Fielden, J.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Fitzroy, Lord C.

Wilbraham, G.

Gordon, R.

Wilbraham, hon. B.

Goring, H. D.

Williams, W.

Grimsditch, T.

Williams, W. A.

Grimston, Viscount

Wodehouse, E.

H afford, H.

Wood, Col. T.

Hall, Sir B.

Wood, G. W.

Harland, W. C.

Young, J.

Hawes, B.

Hector, C. J.

TELLERS.

Hinde, J. H.

Lefevre, C.S.

Hodgson, R.

Strickland, Sir G.

Mr. Barnebysaid, that after the division which had just taken place, he did not know whether or not he ought to move, that the Chairman report progress, and the Committee ask leave to sit again. If the House preferred it, however, he had no objection to postpone all the clauses relating to the constitution of the boards, and proceed with the other parts of the bill. He moved that the Chairman report progress:—Ayes 47; Noes 18:Majority 29.

List of the AYES.

Benett, J.

Boldero, H. G.

503

Bridgeman, H.

Musket0t, G. A.

Brotherton, J.

Neeld, J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Packe, C. W.

Buck, L. W.

Parker, R. T.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Parrott, J.

Burroughes, H. N.

Patten, J W.

Cresswell, C.

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Fielden, J.

Plumptre, J. P.

Gordon, R.

Sheppard, T.

Grimsditch, T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Halford, H.

Stanley, E. J.

Hall, Sir B.

Stanley, E.

Harland, W. C.

Strickland, Sir G.

Hector, C. J.

Thompson, Mr. Ald.

Hinde, J. H.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Hodgson, R.

Turner, E.

Irton, S.

Vigors, N. A.

Kemble, H.

Wakley, T.

Langdale, hon. C.

Williams, W.

Liddell, hon. H. T:

Wood, Col. T.

Lister, E. C.

Lockhart, A. M.

TELLERS.

Marsland, H.

Goring, H. D.

Maunsell, T. P.

James, W.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Philips, M.

Bowes, J.

Rumbold, C. E.

Christopher, R. A.

Russell, Lord C.

Collier, J.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Darby, G.

Williams, W. A.

Dundas, Sir R.

Wood, Sir M.

Etwall, R.

Worsley, Lord,

Handley, H.

Hoskins, K.

TELLERS.

Lefevre, C. S.

Barneby, J.

Pease, J.

Hawes, B.

House resumed. Committee to sit again.

RATING OF TENEMENTS.
Mr. R. Gordonmoved the second reading of the Rating of Tenements Bill.
Mr. Cresswellobjected on principle to the measure. He saw no reason why the owners of cottage property should have a different rule applied to them with regard to rating from that which applied to owners of other kinds of property. The plan had been tried, and had failed in Liverpool, where it was found oppressive to the poorer classes themselves. He moved, that the bill be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. Langdaledisapproved of the bill, as tending still more to separate the poorer classes from the classes above them; inasmuch as the occupiers of small cottages, not being rated under the bill to the poor-rate, would be excluded from vestry meetings, and thereby prevented
504
from mingling in public with their richer parishioners.
Mr. Pendarveswas in favour of the bill, which he thought was necessary to prevent the owners of small cottages from escaping from payments to which they were fairly liable.
Mr. Prymeopposed the bill, the principle of which had been acted upon in a section of Birmingham, but had not operated satisfactorily. In Liverpool also such a measure had worked extremely ill, driving the inhabitants of small houses into still smaller houses, and not unfrequently into cellars. He would not say more, than that he considered the bill injurious to the comforts and happiness of the humbler classes of the community, and he should therefore vote against the second reading.
Mr. Burroughssupported the bill, because he was sure, that it would be beneficial to the poorer classes. The system of rating had been very much changed by what was called Mr. Scrope's Act; and it should be borne in mind, that the Poor Law Amendment Act had materially affected this question. Before these two Acts passed, cottage property was to a great extent not rated at all, or the occupiers were exempted from payment with the consent of the Churchwardens and Overseers. But by Mr. Scrope's Act all property was to be rated at a rack rental, and was likely to effect its object as far as regarded large properties, but not so in the case of small properties, for he believed, that hardly any two benches of magistrates in the kingdom adopted the same plan, This was not surprising, as a difference of opinion prevailed among those from whom they might expect a sound exposition of the law. A case was submitted for the opinion of her Majesty's Attorney-General, "whether Churchwardens and overseers were competent to give a valid consent to an exemption from rates where a board of guardians or a select vestry exists." The opinion given was a decided negative. A similar case was submitted to Sir W. Follett, and his answer was, "I am of opinion, that the power of giving consent to the exemption of poor persons from the payment of rates is still in the Churchwardens and Overseers." How, then, were the magistrates to act? The present was not a perfect measure; but, although it would not entirely remedy the evils which he wished to see

505
got rid of, it would go a great way to remove them, and he should therefore vote for the second reading of the bill.
Colonel Woodwas persuaded, that the safest course would be, to leave the law on this subject as it stood. He should therefore vote against the second reading of the bill, more particularly as he was of opinion that the termination which had been put to the system of paying cottage rents from the poor-rates would prove highly advantageous to the country. With that conviction on his mind, he could not help thinking that the present system ought to have a longer trial, and that the bill now before the House was uncalled for and premature. If, however, it should pass the second reading, then he should, when it came to be committed, move certain clauses as to the amount of rating to be paid by the owners.
Mr. Brothertonwould vote for the bill, because he thought it would be a great benefit to the poor. If it was proposed to exclude the cottages let under a certain rent from being rated at all, he would vote for it, as he thought the poor paid out of all proportion towards the other taxes. His wish, founded upon the scenes of distress he had seen in the Borough he had the honour to represent, was, that the poor should never see the tax-gatherer. The landlords were to be allowed fifty per cent. for the trouble they were to be put to, and he thought that was just. It was not calculated, as some hon. Members had stated, to deprive any person of the right of voting, and he was sure, if the measure were fully explained to them, that it would meet with the approbation of the poor.
Sir G. Stricklandwas opposed to the bill because he did not think that was the proper time to disfranchise any part of the people because they were poor. He wished that rates should be paid by the lowest classes possible, for any one paying even a small rate, felt himself raised in society, as he was then enabled to stand on the same footing as his superior by being enabled to vote in vestries.
Mr. Plumptrewould vote for the second reading, being persuaded that the measure would prove a very great advantage to the poor.
Mr. Estcourtsaid, that disfranchisement would not, in any degree, result from this measure. It would not deprive any one of a vote, and as he believed the bill would be beneficial to the poor, he should
506
vote for the second reading. It might require some alteration in committee, but he thought it would be extremely unjust to throw it out upon the second reading.
Mr. Sergeant Talfourdhad endeavoured to look upon this question with a perfectly impartial eye, because a number of wealthy persons among his constituents had requested him to support some measure of this kind, while, on the other hand, many poorer persons, who had invested their small savings in such kind of property, wished him to oppose it; and, he must say, that if any class of people should be looked upon with favour by the House, it was that class who had invested their money in land with the natural feelings of Englishmen wishing to have a stake in the soil, and that what they had acquired by industry should descend to their children. It was on no principle of the elective franchise that he felt bound to oppose the bill. If the Legislature would pass an Act to rate large estates, machinery, or even funded property, so that the rating of all property might be equitable, he should not object to the small cottage proprietors submitting to the common lot; but as long as the present anomalies in the law of rating were allowed to continue, it would be unjust to come suddenly upon the small proprietors of one of the worst descriptions of property. He believed that in the town which he represented, there were no fewer than 100 persons who were proprietors of small tenements, the rents of which were collected with great difficulty, and which were deeply mortgaged. The obligations contracted in respect to such property had been contracted in faith of the present law. He asked the House, then, whether it were prepared to pass a bill which must be injurious to the interest of that particular class of persons to which he referred? As to the clause in the bill making it optional, that was nothing more nor less than a piece of mockery.
Mr. Peasewas of opinion, that the bill would be productive of great benefit to the poor man, and he should therefore vote for the second reading.
Mr. Briscoehad not heard a single dissentient voice out of the House against the principle of the bill, and earnestly hoped that the second reading of it would be carried by a large majority.
Mr. A. Whiteassured the House, that if he thought the bill would be at all injurious to the interests of the poor man,

507
he would not support it for a moment; but, being of a contrary opinion, he should vote for it.
Mr. Cayleybelieved, that the effect of the bill, if passed, would be to prevent the investment of capital in small tenements, and consequently to cause a scarcity of houses, and an increase in the scale of rents. It would, therefore, be injurious to the poor man, and on that ground ought to be opposed.
Mr. R. Gordonsaid, that the main features of the bill had been approved of by the committee which sat to investigate the subject, with the exception of three Members.
The house divided on the original motion; Ayes 32; Noes 28:—Majority 4.

List of the AYES.

Baring, F. T.

Pease, J.

Briscoe, J.

Plumptre, J. P.

Brotherton, J.

Rick ford, W.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Rolleston, L.

Burroughes, N.

Rundle, J.

Chetwynd, Major

Russell, Lord C.

Courtenay, P.

Turner, E.

Darby, G.

Verney, Sir H.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Vivian, J. E.

Etwall, R.

White, A.

Goring, H. D.

White, Col. H.

Handley, H.

Williams, W. A.

Hoskins, K.

Wood, Sir M.

Jones, W.

Worsley, Lord

Kemble, H.

Lefevre, C. S.

TELLERS.

Lushington, Dr.

Gordon, R.

Packe, C. W.

Philips, M.

List of the NOES.

Ainsworth, P.

Pechell, Captain

Barrington, Visct.

Perceval, Captain

Benett, J.

Pryme, G.

Bewes, T.

Scrope, G. P.

Cayley, E. S.

Talfourd, T. N.

Collier, J.

Thornley, T.

Fielden, J.

Turner, W.

Grimsditch, T.

Vigors, N.

Hinde, J. H.

Wakley, T.

Hodgson, R.

Walker, R.

Jervis, J.

Williams, W.

Langdale, hon. C.

Wood, Col. T.

Lister, E. C.

Mackinnon, W. A.

TELLERS.

Marsland, H.

Strickland, Sir G.

Morris, D.

Cresswell, C.

Bill read a second time.