Commons Sitting of 11 May 1838

MINUTES
Bills. Read a second time:—International Copyright; Suitors Money; Sheriffs' Courts (England). Read a third time:—Sheriffs' Court (Scotland).
Petitions presented. By Mr. GOULBURN, from a place in Essex, and from the Dean and Chapter of Ely, by Sir G. CREWE, from a place in Derbyshire, and by Sir J. TYRREL, from various parishes in Essex, praying that the revenues of the Church might be applied to strictly Ecclesiastical purposes.—By Sir G. STRICKLAND, nine, by Mr. BROTHERTON, several, by Mr. BEAMISH, from Bandon, by Mr. EASTHOPE, five, from various Congregations of Dissenters in Leicester, one from Nutshalling, and one from Hitching, by Mr. BAINES, from Berwick-on-Tweed, by Lord F. EGERTON, from Manchester, by Mr. G. W. WOOD, from places in Westmorland, by Mr. C. LUSHINGTON, several from Stirlingshire, Hampshire, Ipswich, Framlingham, Wickham Market, and other places in Suffolk, and by Mr. VILLIERS, from places in the county of Stafford, for the Immediate Abolition of Slavery.—By Mr. BAINES, from the West Riding of Yorkshire, by Sir G. STRICKLAND, from certain inhabitants of Yorkshire, and by Mr. WALLACE, from Greenock, for alterations in the Factories Act.—By Sir H. VIVIAN, from Cornwall, praying that persons holding Tenements of the value of 4l. should be subjected to Local Rates, without having any discretion vested in the Overseers.—By Mr. INGHAM, from Seamen connected with the port of Tyne, against the Registration of Seamen's Bill.—By Colonel CONOLLY, from the county of Donegal, against the system of National Education (Ireland).—By Mr. WALLACE, from the Operatives of Greenock, against the Factories Bill; from Shipowners of Edinburgh, against allowing incompetent persons to be Masters of Merchantmen; and from the Professional Gentlemen of Cupar, in favour of the Bills introduced by the Lord Advocate.—By Lord FRANCIS EGERTON, from certain Authors, in favour of the Copy-
1160
right Bill.—By Mr. GILLON, from the United Secession Congregations of West Linton, Cupar, Angus, Greenlaw, Pathstonie, Holm of Balfron, Braehead (parish of Conwath), Airth (Stirlingshire), Rattrey, Cambristhan, Old Mildrum, Abernethy, Newmiln, Greenloaning, Horndean (Berwickshire), Minghive, Deering, Lethendy, Auchtergaven, a parish in Northumberland, from the Relief Congregations of Eccles, St. Ninian's, Auchtergaven, Perth, and Newlands, from the Inhabitants of Banwickham, and Patmouk, from the Ayrshire Voluntary Church Association, from the Dissenters of Kilmarns and others, and from the Dissenters of Biggan and others, and by Mr. PROCTER, from Protestant Dissenters of the Borough of Leicester, against any further Endowment of the Church of Scotland.—By Mr. EASTHOPE, from certain Printers in Fleet-street, against the proposed Copyright Bill; and from Leicester, against the Corn-laws.—By Sir H.HARDINGE, from Launceston, against the Grant to Maynooth.—By Mr.THORNELY, from Stoke Ferry, and from eleven other places in Norfolk, and from the Members of the Brougham Institute of Liverpool, and by Mr. WALLACE, three, from different places, for Mr. R. Hill's plan of Post-office reform.—By Lord C. MANNERS, from the Clergy of the Archdeaconry of Leicester, against clauses in the Church Pluralities Bill.—By Colonel BUTLER, from a place in the Queen's county, for the total Abolition of Tithes, Corporate Reform, and Vote by Ballot.

UNION WORKHOUSES.
Sir J. Grahamwished, before the Budget was brought forward, to call the attention of the Government to a matter of some importance connected with the enlargement and improvement of the several Workhouses throughout England and Wales. He believed it was the general impression that much of the success of the Poor-law Amendment Act depended upon every facility being given for the erection of workhouses. The Government, in the first instance, arranged that the sums to be lent the Unions for the purpose of building workhouses should be repaid within ten years from the period the advance was made; but, subsequently, on several representations being made that this time was too short, and that it was expedient to give the Unions every facility, it was extended to twenty-one years. He was informed, within the last few days, that very recently applications had been made from various Unions for advances, in conformity with the Act of last session, but it would appear those advances were refused, on the ground that there was no further sum available for the purposes of such works. Now, before the budget was brought on, he was anxious to direct attention to this matter, and he did so in the hope that some arrangement might be made for continuing to the Unions the assistance they required.
Lord J. Russellhad to observe, that the advances already made to the Poor-law Unions, for the erection of workhouses,

1161
very much exceeded the sum set apart for that purpose by Lord Althorp.

BENEFICES PLURALITIES BILL.
The House resolved itself into Committee on the Benefices Pluralities Bill. On the 68th Clause, empowering the bishop, where he had reason to believe that the duties of a benefice were inadequately performed, or where there was more than one church or chapel belonging to a benefice, to require the appointment of a curate, having been read,
Mr. Goulburnobjected to the power. There were many cases in which a clergyman possessing a benefice was able to perform the duties of two churches or chapels; and it would be hard to compel him to appoint a curate at the sacrifice of a fourth of his income.
Lord John Russelldid not think the clause would work any of the evil which the right hon. Gentleman apprehended from it. It merely gave to the bishop the power of requiring the appointment of a curate. Where the duties were adequately performed, it was not probable that the power would be exercised; but, although one clergyman might be assiduous in the discharge of his duties, he might have a successor of a different character.
Lord Stanleyalso supported the clause, as power was given to the bishop to exempt parishes, in case he thought fit, from the celebration of two full services on every Sunday.
Sir R. Inglisobjected to the clause, because it was a Parliamentary interference with the regulations of the Church, which would not be tolerated by any Roman Catholic, Baptist, or Independent congregation. He concurred in the opinion, that the subject ought to be left to the discretion of the ecclesiastical authorities.
Colonel Sibthorpremarked, that in some parishes, during the winter, if two sermons were preached, there would be no one to hear the second sermon but the preacher himself, the clerk, and perhaps the sexton.
Mr. Milneswas of opinion that the most important part of a clergyman's duty was that of preparing his parishioners to join with advantage in the observances of the Sabbath, and not of preaching sermons. He admitted that sermons were very, attractive, but they should recollect
1162
that clergymen of a great age would not be able to preach two sermons in a day, as preaching was often painful to the lungs. Besides, he did not think that such a regulation could be enforced. He recollected an instance where a clergyman who held two small livings near one another was in the habit of preaching a sermon at one of them, and reading the evening service of the Church at the other. The Archbishop of Canterbury remonstrated with the incumbent, and told him that he ought to preach a sermon at both churches, and when he was at last forced to comply with the mandate, he used to boast that he had jockied the Archbishop, and that he used to preach one half of his sermon at the one church in the morning, and the other half at the other in the afternoon.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that as the opinion of the house seemed not to be in accordance with his own, he did not wish to put hon. Members to the trouble of dividing, though he still retained his own opinion.
Amendment withdrawn. The clause agreed to.
On Clause 94 (licences to curates and revocations thereof to be entered in the registry of the diocese) being read,
Sir R. Inglisobjected to the registrar being entitled to receive from the incumbent of a benefice ten shillings for every copy of the grant of a licence or revocation to a curate. He should move an amendment to this part of the clause.
Lord John Russellsaid, that if the fee was not paid by the incumbent it must be paid out of the church-rates, to which he most strongly objected.
Sir E. Sugdensuggested, that the fee be reduced to two shillings.
The Committee divided on Sir Robert Inglis's amendment: Ayes 47; Noes 49: Majority 2.

List of the AYES.

Bagge, W.

Ellis, J.

Bailey, J.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Blennerhassett, A.

Fellowes, E.

Bolling, W.

Filmer, Sir Edmund

Bramston, T. W.

Freshfield, J.

Broadley, H.

Goulburn, H.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Grimsditch, T.

Burroughes, H. N.

Halford, H.

Clerk, Sir G.

Heathcote, Sir W.

Cole, Viscount

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Courtenay, P.

Hodgson, R.

Darby, G.

Hope, G. W.

East, J. B.

Hughes, W. B.

Egerton, Sir P.

Kemble, H.

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Law, hon. C. E.

Round, J.

Lygon, hon. General

Sibthorp, Colonel

Mackenzie, T.

Sugden, rt. hn. Sir E.

Marsland, T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Moneypenny, T, G.

Vernon, G. H.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Wood, T.

Morgan, C. M. R.

Young, Sir W.

O'Neill, hon. J. B. R.

Pusey, P.

TELLERS.

Rickford, W.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Rose, rt. hon. Sir G.

Nicholl,—

List of the NOES.

Abercromby, hn. G. R.

Palmer, C. F.

Adam, Admiral

Parker, J.

Aglionby, H. A.

Pechell, Captain

Attwood, T.

Philips, Mark

Bannerman, A.

Rice, E. R.

Beamish, F. B.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Berkeley, hon. H.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Briscoe, J. I.

Russell, Lord John

Brocklehurst, J.

Salwey, Colonel

Bulwer, E. L.

Seymour, Lord

Collier, J.

Stanley, W. O.

Craig, W. G.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Dalmeney, Lord

Stuart, Lord J.

Evans, Sir De L.

Style, Sir C.

Evans, G.

Tancred, H. W.

Evans, W.

Thomson, right hon. C. P.

Fergusson, rt. hon. R. Cutlar

Thornley, T.

Hastie, A.

Turner, E.

Hawes, B.

Turner, W.

Hobhouse, right hon. Sir J.

Williams, W.

Williams, W. A.

Howick, Visct.

Winnington, T. E.

Lefevre, C. S.

Wood, G. W.

Lushington, C.

Macleod, R.

TELLERS.

Maule, hon. F.

Labouchere, H.

Morris, D.

Smith, V.

Clause agreed to.
On Clause 22, a postponed clause, embodying the enactment of the 57th George 3rd, cap. 99, which restrains spiritual persons from entering into any trade or dealing,
Mr. Courtenaymoved an amendment, to strike out so much of the clause as rendered void bargains made by spiritual persons engaged in trade, and adding to the clause a proviso exempting from the operation of the Bill such cases of trading or dealing on the part of clergymen as shall be carried on by or on behalf of any number of partners exceeding six, or where any trade or dealing, or share in any trade or dealing, devolves on spiritual persons by demise, bequest, settlement, marriage, bankruptcy, or insolvency, The hon. and learned Member put several hypothetical cases in illustration of the hardships to which clergymen were exposed by the
1164
present law, as embodied in the proposed clause, and stated, that his amendment had been framed after great deliberation, and with the assistance of eminent legal authorities.
Mr. Lawsubmitted to the House, whether it would be worth while, merely for the purpose of preventing clergymen from unjustly engaging in secular pursuits—a supposition which he did not think they were fully justified in entertaining—to enact a prohibition which could only have its operation in a few unimportant instances, while, by vitiating contracts of companies of which clergymen might happen to be members, it would place in jeopardy the commercial interests of the country. If the noble Lord was determined to maintain the clause, he would support the amendment of his hon. Friend.
Sir E. Sugdenadmitted, that the clause had been introduced with a good object, but did not think that that object would be attained by the clause as it stood at present. He felt, that it should be qualified, and with all deference to his hon. Friend who had moved the amendment, and without wishing to impose upon the noble Lord his (Sir E. Sugden's) view of the subject, he would, upon the third reading of the Bill, propose a clause having the same object as the present one, but in a modified shape.
Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to.
Colonel Sibthorprose, to move a clause of which he had given notice, to the effect, that the widow or representative of a deceased incumbent should have the power of residing, free of all charges, &c., in the glebe-house, and keeping possession of such land as might have been in the actual occupation of the incumbent at his death, not exceeding ten acres, for the space of three months. The period might be less if the House thought proper, but possession for some time should undoubtedly be granted, to afford to the widow of an incumbent time to settle herself elsewhere. The hon. and gallant Officer mentioned an instance of a patron having held out threats against an incumbent who disobliged him, which he carried into effect upon the incumbent's death by immediately dispossessing his widow and family of their place of residence.
Sir C. Burrellsupported the clause, and thought it expedient and just, that some

1165
provision should be made for the widows of clergymen.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 36; Noes 95: Majority 59.

List of the AYES.

Bagge, W.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Bailey, J. jun.

Marsland, T.

Blackstone, W. S.

Meynell, Captain

Broadley, H.

Monypenny, T. G.

Brownrigg, S.

Morgan, C. M. R.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Morris, D.

Burrell, Sir C.

Perceval, Colonel

Canning, rt. hn. Sir S.

Pusey, P.

Cole, Viscount

Sinclair, Sir G.

Colquhoun, J. C.

Somerset, Lord G.

Copeland, Alderman

Stewart, J.

De Horsey, S. H.

Talfourd, Sergeant

D'Israeli, B.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Eaton, J.

Williams, W.

Estcourt, T.

Wood, G. W.

Freshfield, J. W.

Young, Sir W.

Grimsditch, T.

Hodgson, R.

TELLERS.

Lygon, hon. General

Clerk, Sir G.

Mackenzie, T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

List of the NOES.

Abercromby, hn. G. R.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Adam, Admiral

Holmes, W.

Aglionby, H. A.

Hope, G. W.

Baines, E.

Houstoun, George

Beamish, F. B.

Howard, P. H.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Howick, Viscount

Berkeley, hon. H.

Hughes, W. B.

Blair, J.

Hutt, W.

Bramston, T. W.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Brocklehurst, J.

Johnstone, H.

Brotherton, J.

Kemble, Henry

Bryan, G.

Law, hon. C. E.

Bulwer, E. L.

Lefevre, C. S.

Burroughes, H. N.

Lockhart, A. M.

Campbell, Sir J.

Lowther, J. H.

Chetwynd, Major

Macleod, R.

Childers, J. W.

Marsland, H.

Courtenay, P.

Martin, J.

Craig, W. G.

Maule, hon. F.

Darby, G.

Melgund, Viscount

Davies, Colonel

Morpeth, Viscount

Dennistoun, J.

Murray, rt. hon. J. H.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Palmer, C. F.

Dundas, C. W. D.

Palmerston, Viscount

Dundas, Captain D.

Pechell, Captain

Egerton Sir P.

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Philips, M.

Evans, Sir De Lacy

Phillpotts, J.

Evans, W.

Pringle, A.

Ferguson, right hon. R. C.

Protheroe, E.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Filmer, Sir E.

Richards, R.

Gillon, W. D.

Rolleston, L.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Rose, rt. hon. Sir G.

Greene, T.

Russell, Lord John

Hill, Lord A. M. C.

Salwey, Colonel

Hindley, C.

Scholefield, J.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Seale, Colonel

1166

Smith, R. V.

Waddington, H. S.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Wallace, R.

Steuart, R.

White, A.

Stuart, H.

White, S.

Strickland, Sir G.

Williams, W. A.

Style, Sir C.

Winnington, T. E.

Thomson, rt. hn. C. P.

Winnington, H. J.

Thornely, T.

Wood, T.

Townley, R. G.

Verney, Sir H.

TELLERS.

Vivian, right hon. Sir R. H.

Parker, J.

Solicitor-General, the

Clause rejected. The House resumed. Report to be received.

SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND).
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the second reading of the Schools (Scotland) Bill.
Mr. Wallacemoved an amendment—"That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the system and management of Parochial Schools in Scotland, and to report before a grant of public money is made for the endowment of additional schools." He was induced to make this motion as the existing system required many alterations and improvements.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought, the hon. Member would have been convinced of the necessity of this measure, if the hon. Member had had an opportunity of hearing the statements of the deputation which had pressed the subject on his attention, composed of gentlemen from all parts of Scotland. He had been asked to place the schools which it was proposed to establish by this Bill under the regulation of the General Assembly, but he preferred abiding by the old Scottish parochial system. It was true, that that system was defective in many particulars; he believed, that was admitted by all parties. A good normal seminary for the instruction of the masters of parochial schools was much wanted in Scotland, and it was also to be wished, that the school-books used should be published at a cheaper rate. As to the permanent appointment of the masters, he thought such a system very inexpedient, particularly where the persons selected belonged to the humbler classes. But he could not allude to the system without acknowledging the benefits which it had conferred on Scotland. It had given to that part of the empire a great ascendancy as regarded education. He could not consent to any motion which might involve a principle adverse to that on which the Scottish parochial system of education was

1167
founded, and therefore he objected to the proposition of the hon. Member. He did not ask hon. Gentlemen, in agreeing to the second reading of this bill, to affirm the principle of the parochial system of Scotland in all its parts; but what he wanted was, an extension of that system, so that what was adopted in one part of a parish might be also followed in every other part of it. On that ground, therefore, he trusted the House would not object to the second reading.
Mr. Gillonwas opposed to the bill, and would move, that it be read a second time that day six months, for he could not consent to the principle which would be affirmed if they proceeded with the second reading at once. He objected to any grant of public money being made in aid of a system so defective as that of the parochial system of Scotland. If any grant were made, the most desirable mode would be, to leave it to the management of the Treasury, or of a board, which might be easily appointed, at Edinburgh; and if that were done, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would satisfy all parties in Scotland.
Mr. Colquhounadmitted, that the parochial system was as bad as it had been described to be, but that only rendered it more necessary that the same measure of justice which had been given to England should be dealt out to Scotland with respect to the subject of education. He complained, that although a sum of 6,000 l. had been granted in the year 1836, and had been declared from the Throne in 1837 to have been paid for the endowment of forty-one schools in the Highlands, yet no such sum had been really appropriated to this purpose. He considered, that the present Bill was the only means of securing the object in view.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexplained by saying, that they intended to have applied to the Church Commission, which had been appointed to superintend the building of churches in these forty-one parishes, for information on this subject, as to the best mode of establishing those schools, but, at that time, the Commission had ceased to exist, and it had been since proposed to found schools of a different kind. He had introduced this Bill in redemption of his pledge to do all in his power for the establishment and maintenance of education in Scotland.
Mr. Langdalesaid, that there was a number of districts in the Highlands and
1168
Western Isles of Scotland, in which a majority of the inhabitants were Catholics. In the isle of Barra, of which the population was 13,000 souls, there were not more than 150 Protestants. He therefore now gave notice, that if this Bill should pass a second reading, he would, when it went into Committee, propose a clause, that in the schools of all large parishes, where a majority of the inhabitants did not belong to the Church of Scotland, the children should not be compelled to learn the catechism of that Church.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that perfect freedom existed on this point already in Scotland, and that, whenever the parents of a child expressed a wish to that effect, he was not obliged to learn the assembly catechism.
Mr. Wallacewithdrew his amendment, on the understanding that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would grant a Committee on the subject.
Mr. Gillonmoved as an amendment that the bill be read a second time that day six months.
The House divided on the original question—Ayes 79; Noes 12:—Majority 67.

List of the AYES.

Abercromby, hon. G. R.

Holmes, W.

Adam, Admiral

Hope, G. W.

Alsager, Captain

Houstoun, G.

Bagge, W.

Hughes, W. B.

Bailey, J.

Hutt, W.

Beamish, F. B.

Ingham, R.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Blackstone, W. S.

Johnstone, H.

Blair, J.

Kemble, H.

Brotherton, J.

Lockhart, A. M.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Lowther, J. H.

Burroughes, H. N.

Mackenzie, T.

Clerk, Sir G.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Cole, Lord Visct.

Macleod, R.

Colquhoun, J. C.

Martin, J.

Craig, W. C.

Melgund, Lord Visct.

Darby, G.

Meynell, Captain

Davies, Col.

Miles, P. W. S.

De Horsey, S. H.

Morgan, C. M. R.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Morpeth, Lord Visct.

Dundas, Capt. D.

Morris, D.

Egerton, Sir P.

Murray, rt. hn. J. A.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Parker, J.

Evans, Sir De L.

Perceval, Colonel

Fergusson, rt. hn. C.

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Filmer, Sir E.

Pringle, A.

Gaskell, Jas. Milnes

Protheroe, E.

Glynne, Sir S. R.

Pusey, P.

Gordon, R.

Rice, rt. hn. T. S.

Grimsditch, T.

Richards, R.

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Hinde, J. H.

Rose, rt. hn. Sir G.

Hodgson, R.

Round, C. G.

1169

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Williams, W.

Sheppard, T.

Williams, W. A.

Sinclair, Sir G.

Winnington, H. J.

Style, Sir C.

Young, Sir W.

Talfourd, Mr. Serg.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

TELLERS.

Vivian, rt. hn. Sir R.

Maule, F.

Waddington, H. S.

Steuart, R.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Salwey, Colonel

Baines, E.

Scholefield, J.

Dundas, C. W. D.

Strickland, Sir G.

Howard, P. H.

Vigors, N. A.

Langdale, hon. C.

Marsland, H.

TELLERS.

Pechell, Capt.

Gillon, Mr.

Philips, M.

Dennistoun, J.

Bill read a second time.

FREEMEN'S ADMISSION BILL.
Mr. W. Williams(Coventry) moved the second reading of the Freemen's Admission Bill.
The House divided—Ayes 55; Noes 30: Majority 23.

List of the AYES.

Alsager, Captain

Kelly, F.

Bagge, William

Kemble, H.

Bailey, J.

Lockhart, A. M.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Lowther, J. H.

Blackstone, W. S.

Mackenzie, T.

Blair, J.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Meynell, Captain

Burroughes, H. N.

Miles, P. W. S.

Clerk, Sir G.

Morris, D.

Cole, hon. A. H.

Perceval, Colonel

Darby, G.

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Davies, Colonel

Pringle, A.

De Horsey, S. H.

Protheroe, E.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Richards, R.

Dunbar, G.

Rose, rt. hon. Sir G.

Egerton, Sir P.

Round, C. G.

Filmer, Sir E.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Gaskell, Jas. Milnes

Scholefield, J.

Glynne, Sir S. R.

Sheppard, T.

Grimsditch, T.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Sinclair, Sir G.

Hinde, J. H.

Talfourd, Mr. Serg.

Hodgson, R.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Hope, G. W.

Waddington, H. S.

Houstoun, G.

Winnington, T. E.

Howard, P. H.

Young, Sir W.

Hughes, W. B.

TELLERS.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Holmes, W.

Johnstone, H.

Williams, W.

List of the NOES.

Adam, Admiral

Dundas, C. W. D.

Beamish, F. B.

Dundas, Captain D.

Brotherton, J.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Craig, W. G.

Gillon, W. D.

Dennistoun, J.

Hutt, W.

1170

Langdale, hon. C.

Salwey, Colonel

Macleod, R.

Steuart, R.

Marsland, H.

Strickland, Sir G.

Martin, J.

Style, Sir C.

Maule, hon. F.

Thorneley, T.

Melgund, Lord Visct.

Vigors, N. A.

Murray, rt. hon. J. A.

Wallace, R.

O'Connell, M. J.

Winnington, H. J.

Parker, J.

Pechell, Captain

TELLERS.

Philips, M.

Baines, E.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Aglionby, H. A.

Bill read a second time.