Commons Sitting of 9 March 1838

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Glass Duties' collection; Post-Office Government.
Petitions presented. By Lord CASTLEREAGH, from the Corporation of Bangor, and by Mr. SHAW, from the High Sheriff and Grand Jury of Wexford, against certain clauses in the Irish Poor-law Bill.—By the Earl of SHELBURNE, from Calne, by Mr. LISTER, from parishes in the East Riding of the county of York, by Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, from three Congregations of Protestant Dissenters in Birmingham, by Mr. BURROUGHS, from numerous places in Norfolk, by Mr. WRIGHTSON, from Northallerton, by Mr. PENDARVES, from various parts of Cornwall, by Mr. WILSON PATTEN, from Ramsbottom, and two other places in Lancashire, by Mr. SANFORD, from the Society of Friends, and four Dissenting Congregations in Bridgewater, and from Chard, and other places in the county of Somerset, by Mr. HEATHCOTE, from various parts of Lincolnshire, by Mr. GODDARD, from Cricklade, and by Mr. BAINES, from a place in the county of Cambridge, for the abolition of Negro Apprenticeship.—By Mr. GODSON, from Kidderminster, against the Rating of Tenements' Bill—By Mr. HOWARD, from Arklow, in favour of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. COLQUHOUN, from Dumbarton, for an improved system of Education in Scotland.—By Colonel CONOLLY, from the Diocese of Clogher, for the restoration of the ten suppressed Sees in Ireland.—By Sir E. KNATCHBULL, from Stage-coach proprietors, complaining of the heavy taxation to which they are liable as compared with the taxation on Steam Conveyances; and from Walmer and Sandwich, against the Municipal Boundaries' Bill.—fly Mr. P. MILES, from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the city of Bristol, for a reduction in the duties on the admission of Freemen.—By Mr. CHUTE, from a Board of Guardians in Norfolk, in favour of the Rating of Tenements' Bill.—By Mr. CHALMERS, from Arbroath and other places, and by Mr. ELLIOT, from the Secession Churches of Kelso and Roxburgh, against any additional grants to the Church of Scotland; and for a system of Education which should recognize no distinctions on religious grounds.—By Mr. PLUMPTRE, from inhabitants of Blackheath, against admitting Catholics to Parliament.—By Mr. HUME, from Finglassie, in the county of Fife, against the Corn-laws,

COPYHOLDS AND MANORS.
Sir E. Sugdensaid, that, with regard to the bills which had been introduced by the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Attorney-General, and which stood on the paper for a second reading that night, he had now read those bills, as well as the opportunity which he had had allowed him. To some of them he apprehended there could be no objection, but two of them were of great importance. By one of them the rights of lords of manors were, in many places, taken away, and transferred to the Crown, and the other altered the modes of descent which had prevailed in this country for a long time. He was not giving any opinion on the merits of those measures, but they were of so much importance that he did not think it right or proper that they should be read a second time merely pro formâ, but that a day ought to be appointed for their discussion.
The Attorney-Generalwas exceedingly anxious that these bills should come on immediately for discussion. There was nothing he regretted more than that any delay should be interposed, and he had entertained a hope, that the principle of these bills would not have been opposed, however their details might have been disputed. He had thought that no difference would have existed in point of principle, either as to the propriety of ameliorating the law regarding copyhold, or improving the law of escheats, or rendering more uniform the operation of the law of descent. If, however, any hon. Member was desirous of a general discussion upon these questions, he (the Attorney-General) would, of course, assent. But he must observe, that, if these matters were deferred to a subsequent period of the Session, the delay which would thus arise, he (the Attorney-General) should exceedingly deplore. These were questions which had nothing to do with party. He would, however, indulge in no comment upon the delay which was thus interposed, although he greatly regretted it.
Sir E. Sugdensaid, that there was no objection to the two bills with regard to Copyhold and the Manorial Boundaries' Bill being immediately proceeded with. These three bills, he (Sir E. Sugden) believed to be right in principle, and he threw no impediment whatever in their way. He had, however, thought, that the hon. and learned Gentleman purposed taking all the Bills together.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, that if no

731
other hon. Member was disposed to offer any objection, he would move that these three bills be now read a second time. It was, undoubtedly, true that they formed but one branch of the whole subject; but the public would derive great benefit even from these three bills separately.
The Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill, the Copyhold Improvement Bill, and the Manorial Boundaries' Bill, were read a second time.

THE CHURCH (IRELAND).
Lord Stanleysaid, that, about a fortnight since, the noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) had said, that, in the course of some time, he should be prepared to state the course which Government would adopt with regard to the Irish Church. He wished to know at what time it was proposed to bring this matter forward, and what course Government proposed to pursue? He would also take the same opportunity of asking his noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, whether or not he had succeeded in obtaining a return of the proportion of tithes paid by the landed proprietors, as compared with the portion paid by the tenants in Ireland?
Lord J. Russellsaid, that with regard to the Tithe Bill, he hoped to be able to lay this subject before the House in the couse of the present month. He hoped to be able to state the principles and details of this bill before bringing forward any other measure relating to Ireland.
Viscount Morpethsaid, in reply to the noble Lord's question, that he had instituted an inquiry last year, but had found an almost insuperable difficulty in the way of obtaining the information which the noble Lord desired; and he had therefore no communication to make upon the subject.
Mr. Shawbelieved, from information which he had received, and upon which he thought he might rely, that very nearly one-half of the amount now paid in Ireland in the shape of tithes was paid by the landlords.

CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS.
Mr. C. Bullercould not hope that the House would proceed to the discussion of the Controverted Elections Bill that evening, considering the subject which was now before it. Several Gentlemen had taken considerable interest in it; and recent circumstances had rendered it desirable that the House should solemnly and seriously discuss it. He should be sorry,
732
however, that any arrangement should be entered into with regard to this bill which would bring down hon. Gentlemen in the expectation of being present at a discussion upon this bill, and expose them to the disappointment of finding some other business before the House; and he therefore desired to see the discussion upon this bill fixed for some definitive period. If he (Mr. Buller) were not enabled to bring on his bill on Monday, he might not have it in his power to bring it on at all this Session, or, at all events, not before Easter.
Sir R. Peelthought, that this subject was of such importance, that her Majesty's Government might with great propriety fix some definitive day—say Friday next—for its discussion. There could be no more important question for discussion than that of the improvement of the mode of trial of Controverted Elections. But the subject could not be proceeded with without some preliminary discussion—the discussion, for instance, of that great preliminary question whether or not there would be any evil in the House of Commons parting with this jurisdiction. The importance of this subject could not be overrated.
Bill postponed.

POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
The House went into Committee on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.
On Clause 59, declaring what hereditaments shall be rateable,
Mr. W. S. O'Brienobserved, that while he admitted there were some classes of income, such as funds, which they could not reach by this bill, yet he could not see any objection to their including all jointures, annuities, and rent-charges arising from land. There was another omission which he was sure was only one of inadvertency, as it related to tithes, which were included—namely, ministers' money. The hon. Member then moved an amendment to the effect that these several species of income be included in this clause.
Mr. O'Connellwas of opinion, that all rent-charges and annuities in the shape of rent should be made rateable. It was his intention to move the insertion in the first line of this clause of the word "rents," and also that the "rights of water-power" at present included in the clause, be exempted from the rate.
Mr. Shawdid not think the amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell), by introducing the word

733
"rents" would fairly raise the question at issue; for rents, popularly so called, that was, the sum receivable by the landlord from his tenant, was not rated separately, or intended to be so under the bill; the rate was, in the first instance, to be paid by the occupier, and then, in the proportions stated in the bill, stopped from the landlord's rent; but the real difficulty arose in the case of jointures, annuities, and other incumbrances, with which, unfortunately, the landed property of Ireland was in general heavily charged. Cases had been stated to him, where, if the whole charge of the poor-rate fell upon the owner of the estate, the greatest hardship and injustice would be the consequence; he knew one estate let for 999 years, at a rent of 1,000 l. per annum, of which the present proprietor was tenant for life, and his father had charged the estate with a jointure of 400 l. a-year, and a sum for younger children, the interest of which amounted to 540 l. a-year, leaving to the owner but a sum of 160 l. a-year as his present share—a sum which, if he be made liable for poor-rates, the entire estate, may not be sufficient to pay the poor-rate alone. If these incumbrances had followed the enactment of a poor-law, as was generally the case in England, the proprietor would have no reason to complain; but in Ireland, where, for the first time, a poor-law was to be inflicted on a heavily encumbered landed proprietary, the case was very different.
Mr. Littonsupported the insertion of the words "jointures and annuities," on the ground that the present was an entirely new measure, and was not contemplated by the granters of those incomes. The principle of this bill was to equalise the burthen of supporting the poor; it was with that view the bill was allowed to go into Committee, but leaving the clause as it now stood, would not carry out that principle. To all who had a practical acquaintance with the state of property in Ireland it was well known that, generally speaking, estates were charged to very nearly their full value, and the owner in fee enjoyed so small a residue, that it would be most unfair to prevent the imcumbrances from being rateable. The owner in fee, in a very great number of instances was literally but the agent for the annuitant, and he believed no practical man would deny that at least one third of the estates in Ireland were so circumstanced. Was it fair, just, or reasonable, that the annuitants
734
who were far better off than the proprietors of the soil, should receive their incomes in full, while the owner in fee was left to struggle on the small pittance which now remained to him, still further reduced by this impost? Upon these grounds, and because the clause as it stood was unjust in principle, he should support the amendment of the hon. Member for Limerick.
Mr. Lynchwas of opinion, that nothing could be more injurious and unjust than to tax rent-charges; such a tax could fall on no one but the creditor, who derived no benefit from the property, and would enjoy no reversion; these annuitants gave money or other valuable consideration for their incomes, and where, he would ask, lay the distinction between them and a mortgagee?
Mr. O'Connellwas surprised to find any Gentleman, still more any lawyer, unable to discern a distinction between the case of an annuitant and a mortgagee; surely there was this wide difference, that the latter could press for the payment of his principal debt, and so relieve himself from the impost, whereas the annuitant was a landlord to the extent of the income he derived, and could not call in his original advance of capital.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfeobserved, the 69th clause to be introduced by the noble Lord, the Member for Stroud, provided for that.
Mr. Lefroywould support the clause as it stood, the principle of the bill being to throw the burden on the land; therefore, neither mortgagee, nor annuitant, nor jointress ought be rated. If the jointress had an estate in the land, then she would naturally become subject to the tax. He thought it right that those who had no estate in the land should be exempted from the rate. In England, annuitants or mortgagees had never been taxed with poor rates, and such a principle ought not to be introduced into the Irish bill. In truth, he hoped before the bill passed that House it would be assimilated more exactly to the English bill than it was at present.
Mr. Sheilwished to know if lead mines were exempted from rate in England, why they should not be so in Ireland?
The Attorney-Generalsaid, it was right they should adopt the law of England where it was just—but not where it was abused.
Lord Stanleywished to know what was intended to be done as to rating hogs. Was the part that was cut only to be rated or was the entire?
Mr. Woulfesaid, it was to be rated in the same way as quarries.
Sir Robert Ratesonsaid, he did not think the answer at all satisfactory. There were many parts of Ireland in which landlords never charged their tenants any thing for turf. He for one never did. He gave it as an accommodation to his tenants. He therefore thought it hard that a part of his property from which he derived no profit should be taxed.
Mr. Jephsonsaid, that if one acre were only available the whole bog would be rated.
Sir F. Trenchsaid, he knew a bog of 20,000 acres which produced nothing, and he thought it most unjust that it should be rated.
Mr. Lefroysaid, he was at a loss to know whether the Committee was in a mine or a bog. They began with the open mines, but they had now fallen into the bog. But to come back to the mines: it appeared to him, that situated as Ireland was, mines ought to be exempted from the rate. If the law in England were absurd, correct it, but do not introduce the converse of it in Ireland. He thought if the working of the mines were encouraged, the Poor-rates would be assisted. He thought, therefore, upon those grounds the mines ought to be exempted.
Mr. Rochesaid, the sums received by the landlords of the mines ought to be rated, but not the capital employed by adventurers in working them.
Mr. Lefroythought, that the mines of Ireland ought to be exempted from taxation. So convinced was he of the importance of this immunity to the welfare of that country, that he should take the opinion of the Committee on the subject. He begged to move that words "opened mines" be struck out of the clause, in order that mines might not be rateable, if the bill became law.
Viscount Morpeththought, the clause as it stood placed the matter on the fairest and most equitable footing possible. The anomalies of the law of England ought not to be introduced into Ireland, and as the Government thought that wherever there was profit, whether from above or under ground, the payment of rates should follow, they were determined to adhere to the clause.
Mr. Lucassaid, that if the noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, succeeded in carrying the clause as it stood, it would effect great mischief. He therefore should move
736
that no open mine be rateable for fourteen years after the passing of the bill.
Mr. Sheilsaid, he had just asked the hon. Baronet, the Member for Cornwall, the course pursued in Cornwall and he found that the adventurer was not rated, though the landlord of the mines was.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he feared the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Sheil) would waste his eloquence in vain, as the noble Lord opposite had said he intended to leave the bill in its present state. With respect to the lead mines, he could state that mines in the county which he had the honour to represent were worked some years since without any profit arising from them. The works were abandoned, but recently they were again worked with considerable profit. He (Lord Castlereagh) had no wish to shield the landlords, but he contended that those who employed capital in working the mines, and who consequently gave employment to the people, should be exewpt from the rate.
Mr. Lynchsaid, that nothing could be more fair than the clause was as it stood. It declared that where there was no profit there should be no charge, but where there was, the rates should be payable; the Commissioners to rate according to the value from time to time. This rendered the clause, in his opinion, unobjectionable.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that property of that kind, and all manufactories under ground, were not rated in England; and he thought it would be more just to relieve Ireland from a tax that England did pay than to subject Ireland to a tax which England did not pay. He did not think the distinction made by the hon. Member for North Lancashire between bogs and quarries held good. They were quite analogous, and in both cases the subject matter was carried away. It was his determination, before the Bill left the Committee, to move a proviso, exempting bogs altogether. By a decision of the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, cutting turf was held to be waste, and no tenant could cut turf unless there was a special permission in his lease to do so. He did not know anything that would be felt a greater hardship by the poor of Ireland than the deprivation of this permission to cut turf, and he thought subjecting bog-lands to the payment of rate would have an injurious effect in that respect.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfesaid, that the only question they had to consider was, how a

737
certain sum was to be raised, and if they exempted one kind of property from contributing to that sum, they must lay an additional burthen on some other kind of property. He thought this kind of property ought to be rated on the same principle as other property.
Mr. C. Bullerthought, that the tax ought to be put, as in all other cases, upon the rent paid to the landlord, taking the rent as a measure of value. He could mention many instances where sums to a very great amount had been expended in making mines productive, and where no profit could be expected to arise for several years, though they ultimately became productive. Now, it would be unjust to cast aside all the losses of former years, and, when the mines became productive, to make a new valuation, for the purpose of taxing them. He thought, that to subject this kind of property to the payment of the rates would operate as a very great discouragement to the employment of capital in the working of mines in Ireland.
Sir W. Somervillehad recently opened a copper mine on his estates in Ireland, one of his objects in doing which, was to give employment to the poor, where it was much wanted. He thought that subjecting this kind of property to taxation would operate as a very great discouragement to the employment of capital in speculations of the kind. Should they be indisposed to consent to a total exemption they ought at least to adopt the proposition of the hon. Member for Monaghan, giving an exemption for a limited number of years.
Lord J. Russellsaw no reason for the exemption of this kind of property; however, as the hon. Member for Monaghan's proposition only provided for an exemption for a limited number of years, he would have no objection to agree to it, but could not consent to a total exemption.
Amendment withdrawn.
Mr. Shawsaid, with respect to tithe owners, he thought that they ought to be placed in the same condition as the landlord. It would be very hard to call on the clergyman to pay the rates in respect to tithes which might never be paid. He thought that the tithe-payer in the first instance ought to be chargeable with the rate, and that he should then have the power of deducting the proper amount from the tithe-owner, but no person could contend that the tithe-owner ought to be made pay that which he might never get.
Viscount Morpethsaid, that this point had been debated last year, and the Committee had been induced to adhere to the present course by two considerations. The first was, that they ought not to complicate the relations between landowner and tenant; and, secondly, that as the whole tendency of their legislation was to remove the payment of the tithes to the highest landowner, it would not be consistent with that tendency to throw the burthen in this instance upon the occupier.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfesaid, that the tendency of this proposition would be to throw the burthen of the entire poor's rate in the first instance on the occupier. In a few years more the occupiers in Ireland would no longer be the persons who would have to pay the tithe composition, so that they would have the occupier paying the rates for the clergyman though not being the person chargeable with the payment of the composition. The preferable mode appeared to him to be to treat tithe composition as in itself a substantive property. As to the difficulty of getting clergymen to pay the rate, he was quite sure they would be as ready as any other class to contribute their just share to relieve the wants of their fellow-countrymen.
Mr. Shawsaid, that his objection had not at all been answered. What he complained of as a hardship was, that clergymen should be called on to pay rates before they got tithes, which, perhaps, after they had paid the rates in respect to them they might never get. He was quite sure when they were paid their tithes they would be quite willing to pay their rates, but he contended it would be a hardship to make them chargeable with rates on tithes which they might never be paid.
Mr. Sheilthought, if it was unfair towards the clergyman to make him pay before he received his tithes, it should be held equally unjust to the landlord to make him pay before he received his rent. On the 1st of September last, he owed a year's tithes to the rev. Mr. Thomson, and he was immediately compelled to pay them, though he had not been paid his rents. The rev. gentleman filed a bill in equity to recover the tithes, although he (Mr. Sheil) had not received one farthing of rent. His tithes and his rent were both due on the 1st of November, but he was forced to pay his tithes, although he had not received any rent. Would the hon. Member for Sligo relish this? He (Mr. Sheil) was satisfied that if the bill were altered

739
in this particular, the poor rate would be blended with the rent.
Colonel Percevalsaid, that the clergy in his neighbourhood were ready to wait for their tithes till the rents were paid.
Mr. Shawmoved, that the words "all tithes and compositions or rents in lieu of tithes," should be left out of the clause. He admitted, that this was an inconvenient way of putting the question; but he did it to raise the consideration whether the clergyman should be placed on a different footing from the landlords, but that he should not pay rates for his tithes till he had received them.
Mr. Sergeant Woulferemarked, that this was precisely similar to the case of the clergy in England, who were liable to pay rates for such tithes as were receivable.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that this clause only declared that tithes should be rateable, and did not provide for their being levied. He thought that the whole objection would be remedied if power were given to the guardians to levy the rates against the composition, and not to proceed against the clergyman.
Sir E. Sugdensaid, that that there was no reason why rates should not be paid by clergymen in Ireland as well as in England: and as the hon. Member for Dublin proposed a remedy in rem and not in personam, there was no objection to leaving these words, and introducing the proposed remedy against the composition only, unless the clergyman had received the money.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, that the very question was raised on the English Tithe Commutation Act, and he thought that by adopting the words of the English Act the suggestions of the hon. Member for Dublin would be fully met.
The clause with amendment, to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 62 (existing surveys to be used if sufficient; if not, the guardians to cause fresh surveys to be made).
Sir Robert Fergusonsaid, that too much power was given to the Commissioners by this clause. The making of surveys was a matter entailing great expense on the country, and which, in its present state it could scarcely bear, and he really thought that the Ordnance surveys, which had been already made, should be used.
Viscount Morpethsaid, that the Ordnance surreys, which had been already made, did not extend to more than half the country. It was only in the absence
740
of such surveys, or when they were insufficient, that it was proposed that fresh ones should be made in order to carry out the provisions of the Act.
Mr. Lucassaid, that the Ordnance surveys were townland surveys, and were not therefore, applicable to the purposes of this Bill.
Sir Robert Fergusonsaid, that if they were not, he really hoped that they would not be continued, for the Irish people were already taxed with immense charges on this head without reasonable cause.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfesuggested, that the Ordnance surveys had nothing to do with the Bill unless they should be found useful for its purpose. If new surveys were required why should they not be made?
Sir Robert Fergusonwould then move an amendment to the clause, to the effect that the consent of two thirds of the Guardians should be required to decide what surveys should be used, and he would take the sense of the Committee upon the subject.
The Committee divided, on the Amendment:—Ayes 27: Noes 50: Majority 23.

List of the AYES.

Archbold, R.

Lefroy, rt. hon. T.

Blake, M. J.

Litton, E.

Browne, R. D.

O'Connell, D,

Douglas, Sir C. E.

O'Connell, M.

Eaton, R. J.

Perceval, Colonel

Finch, F.

Roche, D.

Forbes, W.

Rolleston, L.

Gladstone, W. E.

Round, C. G.

Hayes, Sir E.

Shaw, right hon. F.

Hodgson, R.

Style, Sir C.

Hughes, W. B.

Vigors, N. A.

Hurt, F.

Villiers, Visct.

Jackson, Sergeant

TELLERS.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Jones, T.

Bateson, Sir R.

List of the NOES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Howard, P. H.

Baring, F. T.

Hutton, R.

Beamish, F. B.

Langdale, hon. C.

Brotherton, J.

Lucas, E.

Bryan, G.

Macleod, R.

Chalmers, P.

Mahony, P.

Childers, J. W.

Morpeth, Viscount

Craig, W. G.

Murray, rt. hon. J. A.

Curry, W.

O'Brien, C.

Fitzalan, Lord

O'Brien, W. S.

Fitzsimon, N.

O'Callaghan, hon. C.

Fleetwood, P. H.

O'Connell, M. J.

French, F.

Parker, J.

Gillon, W. D.

Pinney W.

Gordon, R.

Power, J.

Hall, B.

Redington, T. N.

Harvey, D. W.

Rice, right hon. T. S.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Roche, E. B.

Hodges, T. L.

Roche, W.

741

Rolfe, Sir R.

Stuart, V.

Russell, Lord J.

Wakley, T.

Scrope, G. P.

Westenra, hon. H. R.

Seymour, Lord

Wood, G. W.

Sheil, R. L.

Sinclair, Sir G.

TELLERS.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Lynch, A. H.

Spencer, hon. F.

Woulfe, Sergeant

Clause agreed to.
The House resumed, Chairman reported progress, Committee to sit again.